I've never heard of somebody on their death bed saying I wish I'd spent more time at my desk. So this day, as I sit here now, I still really can't believe that we got away with it, to have been in charge of a little living, breathing human and trying to keep them alive. And then you're adding the aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well, and that's mad stuff.
Welcome to the Seas the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes the heart seeing we work, then we rest, but rarely we play, and often don't realize there's more than one way. So this is a platform to hear and explore the stories of those who found lives they adore, the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned fuentrepreneur who's walked the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk. CZA is a series of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the
self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. It's not the first time we've touched on this week's topic or guest on the show, but you'll all remember how absolutely captivated I was and still am by the Tai cave rescue since I read the book Against ol Odds by two of the incredible cave rescue divers that details just how much more impossible the mission actually was than I understood it through the media at the time, and
I've been yapping about it to anyone who listened. I think is one of the most incredible stories to come out of humanity and have really been looking for an excuse to revisit it again on the show. Our conversation with doctor Richard Harris a few years ago is still one of our most popular episodes ever, and I've been hoping for a long time to get his diving partner, friend, co author and co Australian of the Year on the show for a while, and I'm so thrilled to finally
have Craig Chalon here on the show today. Just as Harry was, Craig is wildly humble about his pivotal role in one of the most incredible stories in recent human history. It's as mind blowing as every hearing the details of how the unique combination of his passion for technical cave diving and his profession as a vet was just what the world needed to pull off the impossible. I don't think you can ever hear this story enough times or
be any less inspired by its details. I mean, I've read so exhaustively about the facts, and they blow my mind every time. Coffee colored water, five hour dives, like, oh my gosh, the fact that you are literally diving through space is so narrow that your shoulders and back at touching that, Oh, oh my gosh. I'll let you
guys listen and enjoy as always. Well, many of us have met Craig through the media, you know, during this time, we kind of walked into a chapter of his life where it seems like he's the hero of humanity.
I also loved.
Going through the journey that it took him to get there, from country wa through his career as a vet before finally finding his love for technical cave diving. As you'll hear, Craig epitomizes many of the themes we love to explore and seize the a with such an interesting perspective on what he thinks is a necessary divide between your work and your hobbies, and the idea that you don't necessarily need to love your job. You can find your AA elsewhere.
I found this one so fascinating and I hope you guys enjoy as much as I did.
Craig Challon, Welcome to Seize the A.
Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.
I'm so excited to have you here today and so grateful for your time because we get to talk about one of humanity's greatest stories and I think one of my favorite topics ever.
No points for guessing what that is, but it is a pretty good story.
I was actually listening to you on another show and the interviewer said, people will always remember where they were when man landed on the moon or JFK was assassinated. And I think a lot of Australians remember where they were when they heard about the Tie Cave rescue. But I do think many of us didn't fully understand just how extraordinary the odds were at the time. The news
brushed over so many of the details. Hence the name of You or Incredible Book Against All Odds co authored with doctor Richard Harris, who we have had the pleasure of also having on the show. It wasn't until I read your book that I fully grasped just how impossibly unlikely a successful rescue was and became totally obsessed with the details. So I'm really excited to revisit those today and the crazy intersection of your profession with your passion,
as we did with Harry. But first I love to trace back through all the chapters that came before this one, the one that people meet you in now Australian of the Year. You have an Order of Australia Medal, lots of letters at the end of your name. You're a global hero. So can you take us back to the beginning? Who you started as in Thornleigh, Perth. What were you like growing up?
Well? I think on reflection, I probably was born at the best time and place in the entirety of human history, really, Queen's sixty five in Australia, most particularly Western Australia. It's hard to imagine how it could get much better than that, really, So I guess I had a pretty ordinary, really childhood that was great, you know, I had a fantastic family environment. There were four kids in the family. I was the oldest.
Great deal of encouragement from my parents to seek opportunities and to project the idea that there was so much out there to do. Lived in the city for the first part of my childhood, but in the latter part moved out to the country, and that was really the most fantastic thing.
I mean, it sounds absolutely idyllic. Western Australia is one of the most beautiful parts of the world, and a country upbringing is so grounding. But I don't necessarily think it foreshadows that you will grow up and become a global hero and be welcomed with open arms by the King of Thailand and treated by royalty like royalty. It's not necessarily what you would expect from your pathway.
Let alone the sort of unique combination of technical cave diving and veterinaries and that led you there. So what did you actually think you would be when you grow up? Did you have any idea? Do you dreamk this up?
I don't know that I over did. It's as funny how everybody always wants you to have had a grand plan fear life, and life is not actually like that. Most of us are just doing what seems like the next logical thing. People respond to incentives and respond to their environment. I was just an ordinary kid, later on, an ordinary person doing my job, getting an education, and admittedly a hobby of cave diving is a little bit unusual. Most people have never really heard of it before the
Ika rescue. But it was just a thing that I fell into. I'd always been interested in adventure sports, parachuting and climbing, and had a brief and unspectacular career in mountaineering and a few other things, as you do, and none of them really cold that much. And I did scuba diving as part of that course, but looking at fish was a bit boring. Really can only take so much of that. But like so many things in life, just right place, right time. I met someone that was
a cave diving instructor. As soon as I heard about cave diving, I thought that is the thing for me. That was twenty seven years ago. Now that's been good. I'm a fantastic opportunity. I've now been all around the world and been to places that nobody has ever been before, and seen things that have never had human eyes laid on them. And of all the reasons that I really like cave diving, that is the one that really gets me. You never get tired of that.
I mean, that sounds incredible and you're kind of selling it to me, but there are still lots of parts that terrify me, which we will get to. But I mean, this show is called CZZA because I think we do in society spend so much time looking for things like success and prestige, but then eventually often realize that all we're really looking for is yay. It's fulfillment, happiness and contentment.
But it eludes people for so long because so few of us wake up knowing what we want to be and then become that and then you live happily ever after.
It just so rarely happens that way.
And when you don't know what you want to be, I mean, how do you even find out what you're passionate about? Like, how would you ever work out that you loved technical cave diving without meeting someone? It just seems so unlikely, and particularly as a VET, that doesn't really seem to connect with what you were already doing. But that's why I love your story so much. It's not only to tell people about hobbies and pursuits they might not have otherwise heard of in case it sparks
something for them. But also because you can have a really unlikely combination of your passion and your profession. You can be a veterinary surgeon who loves technical cave diving, and that can lead you to be, you know, the only person that can help globally in a particular situation.
So, I mean, how did the combination come about for you? Were you already a vet when you started cave diving? How did it all work?
No, I know it'd be pretty sad existence as a job. Really. I think I'm a pretty firm believer in keep your work you work, and your hobbies your hobbies, and in my observation, people that try and mix the two it doesn't really go well. And I can particularly it's because I know a lot of diving instructors and cave diving instructors. To my mind, when they start doing that, it just spoils the whole thing because you never get to go
out and do your own stuff. You're too mixed up in making a living, and it's not a particularly good living anyway. So you're better off to do what you do, and I do think that most people's lives there's probably room enough to be good at two things. It's really hard. You certainly have to have a great deal more talent and gents that I've got to do more than that
and haven't really got the time. So hopefully your work is one of them those of us that are afflicted with having to work for a living, which is the greater part of the population. And then there's something else as well, and you know, whatever it is, your hobby
or your sport or an alternative occupation or whatever. I mean, that's completely up to the individual, but it's really worthwhile devoting yourself to developing skills that are not something that you are then are living from, just for fun and satisfaction and challenge.
That's such a great SoundBite for this show, because I think there is, you know, in the pursuit of your yay, a lot of narrative around loving your job, and lots of people do love their job, but it's discouraging for those who maybe don't and find their passion in their hobbies instead. And I think you're a wonderful example and that's a great encouragement that they can be kept separate, and sometimes there is a great benefit in doing so.
Yeah, well, you've been passionate in love with your work. It's a nice sounding idea, and you're on you or anybody else. I'm very happy for you. But there's a lot of pretty mundane jobs out there and somebody has to do them. The other thing is that, no matter how much you like it, if you're facing up to thirty or forty or more years of doing that, then there's going to really come a time where you want to move on to something else. So you should leave
an opening in your life. People say I don't know what I'd do if I retired, and that just seems crazy to me. I mean, what have you been going to work for your whole life for. I've never heard of somebody on their deathbed saying I wish I'd spent more time at my desk.
Oh, one hundred percent. I say that all the time. I've never met someone who thinks I wish I worked more. I wish I did less of my hobbies. I wish I made less time for my family and for joy and for the things that really light you up. What I think is the greatest shame is when people do get to sort of that chapter in their lives, like retirement,
and they don't know what their passions are. It's not that they haven't made time for them, but they've never even explored who they are enough, because their profession does become.
The entirety of their identity.
So speaking to Harry and now speaking to you is wonderful because you have dedicated so much time resources, Like it's expensive. You know, it's not just sort of a hobby where you go and do fingerpainting whatever, Like, it's a big undertaking to travel the world to go and find these places, and there's a lot of training and equipment. I love that that is all for something that isn't
your job. It's purely because you enjoy it. But before we get to the story, I do want to touch quickly on your time as a vet, which, even though it wasn't necessarily.
Your passion, did you enjoy it.
In my mind, it's one of the best jobs in the world because you get to work with animals. But I actually had a couple of followers mentioned and sort of point out to me that it can be incredibly tough and there are often some tough mental healths around the profession.
So what was your experience.
Yeah, so that's well, it's a complicated situation. We could talk for a whole day on this. I should open by saying I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so I can only speak for what I've seen with my own eyes. I don't know that it's really any worth in the vetory profession than in society generally. There is some information around the suicide rates are higher amongst vets, but there's no real supporting evidence as to why that is. And it seems the most obvious explanation to me is
that vets have got means to do it. Thats are They're privileged members of a privileged society here in Australia. I mean, you get to do work that is meaningful. Can't really top looking after animals, can you. That's the trump card of everything than helping people as well, with professions full of nice people. So I don't really get it. What I'm saying shouldn't be taken to display any lack
of sympathy for people that have had problems. But why that should be and whether it is any worse in the veteran profession, I don't really know, just trying to give you an honest opinion, But I don't want to look insensitive, because I'm not insensitive to people suffering.
No, I really appreciate the honesty of that perspective and think it's really positive that you haven't had that experience of the industry and it has felt like a privilege. Did you enjoy your time as a vet?
I did? It was great. I had a couple of careers in one I started out doing clinical work, then as I progressed, I built quite a large group of practices, and so in the latter part of my career, for probably the last ten years or so, I was really more of a management VET than a clinic I mean, as a clinician, I was okay. I was a passable VET.
I wasn't the most fantastic fit in the world. Probably my talents lay more in managing other vets and providing an environment for them to be the best that they could. In my own humble opinion, I was fairly handy at that I met with some success.
So I was lucky, well wonderful though that you did have a great career, but that alongside in this parallel world, you were able to excel extraordinarily at being a cave diver. So let's turn to the passion because obviously this is such a yay for you and has remained that, like you said, many people don't even know what cave diving is, just assuming and I think it was the same in the case of a Thaire cave rescue, just assuming that generally skilled qualified divers can do cave dives. But it's
quite a specific technical kind of diving. So when you first discovered what it was, what was your first dive? Like, where do you go from there? Is there a universe? Like you can you know, you can do your scuba diving certification. Is it like that where you find a school and you get a teacher and you get a certificate and then you can just go and do all these places? They sound very hard to access. Is there like a association that allocates you dives you're allowed to do? Are they ranked?
Like?
How does it all work when you first get into it?
Yeah, So when I began, there was a lot more informal, really, and there was an association there would defined courses that you did, and that that's how you start out. I mean, it can be quite a good diver in open water, but that does not qualify you anyway, and it's highly dangerous to just decide to give it a go. There's a few obvious things. The most important one, of course, is that if something goes wrong, you can't just hit the up button and go back to the surface because
there is no surface. There's rock above you, and so you have to be able to deal with any contingency not being able to see. If you get lost, you need to get unlost again and find your way out. Any equipment failures, you need to have a plan and skills and the cool head to deal with them.
I do not have that.
It's not for everyone. A lot of people temperamentally aren't suited to it, but it certainly doesn't require any special powers. All the people that do it just ordinary people. Really, you need to go out and get the training. First of all. There's a long history of people that have come unstuck when they've just decided to give it a bit of a go, So I cannot emphasize that enough. But I was really lucky in that I met someone who was an instructor but also became a bit of
a mentor to me. Took me on some expeditions way before I was probably ready to be doing that. Within a few months really of starting cave diving, I was doing exploration and laying line, as we call it home, putting guideline in a new cave. When you have that sort of beginning, it's really to not have enthusiasm for more of it.
Oh my gosh.
I love watching people on the show go from talking about just normal questions like their childhood and whatever to the thing they really love.
And the whole facial expression changes.
It's like this light that you get when you talk about something you're really passionate about it, particularly when you're thinking about kind of the early days. I love watching that transformation in your body language getting excited about it.
I'm so transparent, Sarah.
It's wonderful to see the joy that you get from this. And what fascinates me so much is that coming back to that kind of societal pressure, there's a lot of not just pressure within people's careers about certain jobs that are worth more than others, or that look more successful
than others. I think in the realm of hobbies and passions and just general interests, there are things that you know, people think are like normal and things that people think aren't normal, and we spend a lot of time trying to be like other people. I love that if you like cave diving, you like or really you spend a lot of effort going to do a pursuit that most people would describe as their nightmare. And that's the best part. Like, I think it's such a good reminder that everyone enjoys
different things. Something that would make someone else crumble into a ball of fear is someone else's joy, Like it's meant to be like that. We're all composed of different things. Like you said, you don't think of yourself as particularly special, but you must be wide in a way where you can be cool, not just cool and calm in water that you can't see through, in tunnels that like are so claustrophobic to the average person, and not just.
Calm, but you enjoy that. I love that it's possible for us to have.
Such a broad range of interest as humanity, and your hobbies don't need to look like anyone else's. I think it's the point I'm trying to make.
I love that, Well, it.
Would be a pretty boring old world if we were all the same, wouldn't it. And what I don't get is people that don't really try anything. Just get out there and you don't know what it is that where your destiny lies, then just do something. Get started. At least you'll require some skills and knowledge and meet some new people. If it's not really for you, then go and do something else. Nobody's got a lifetime long enough to try it, or so if someone sets out to
be World crochet Champion, you know, good luck to them. Really, I admire that it just be the best that you can be.
I love that I was a corporate lawyer beforehand, and when I sort of was asked, you know, what would you do instead? Like, you know, at times when i'd express it, I wasn't particularly happy doing what I would do. They'd be like, well, what are your passions and what are your interest and I'd say, well, I don't know, I don't know what my passions are. And I think someone one day sat.
Me down and said, well, like what are you trying? Like what are you signed up for? And I was like, oh nothing, and so that well.
How are you going to figure out what you're passionate about if you're not going out and trying something like you need to be actively exploring who you are to.
Figure out what you like and what you don't like.
And even finding out that you don't like something, I think is a good amount of data to help you get closer to the things that you do like. So I love that advice to just go crochet, go and do pottery, like figure out what it is.
Yeah, And you know, when I look back, I mean, I'm not a person for regrets at all. I think that regret is the most destructive human emotion. You just do what you do at the time and make the best decisions that you can based on the information that you've got. But you know, if I was going to regret one thing, it would be that when I was younger, I just wasted so much time. You think that you've got all the time in the world and that it'll never catch up with you. And I'm fifty nine years
old now, so I'm not done yet. I've still had a few more dives left in me. But I look back and I think I could have achieved so much more if I hadn't just pissed time up against the wall. Really, you're not going to have big regretting having done too much.
I love that.
Often said, I make decisions based on a future regret management matrix more than anything else, and like, will future me regret this even if current me is like, fuck no, I don't want to do that. Like future me would rather regret doing it than having not done it and letting the time pass anyway, because like the clock is ticking no matter what, so you might as well have
done the experience. It'd rather regret having done it. And it is always such a random sequence of decisions like that that lead you to the pivotal moments in your life. Which brings me back to the story I've been so excited to chat to you about, and I mean one of the parts I love the most. There are so many parts, but it is that unique intersection of your passion for technical cave diving and your job as a vet.
Like in all the world, the entire world of people and all the different combinations of skills that exist, with so many different options of how to solve this problem that seemed impossible, that it was you and Harry who got brought in from somewhere like I don't even know how they even found you. I love that it wasn't necessarily your professions, but it was your hobbies that made you the perfect people for this one thing that happened
during your lifetimes. Like that, just it blows my mind that they know, they called navy seals, they called other governments, they called blah blah, and it was these two lads from Australia.
Doing something that they loved.
It isn't even their job that could do the dive technically enough like that, just it just blows my mind, still blows my mind.
Well, I should hasten to say that there are other people involved as well, it wasn't just me and Harry really to how they found us is as you get higher up the food chain and cave diving, it's a pretty small group of people. Really. Everybody knows each other or knows of each other at least, and so it doesn't really take long to make a list of who
you would really want on a mission like that. Two British guys were Extanton and John Balanthon were the first people on side of the first recognized cave divers on site, and Harry and I know them quite well, particularly Rick. I've done a lot of diving with him over the years, and yeah, I wouldn't have taken too much imagination.
And yet it did take a lot of imagination to come up with the solution that you did end up coming up with. So I think what I find so fascinating about this whole thing is that in the media, it did appear this whole thing has happened. These boys entered a cave, we don't know the cave got flooded out, we don't know if they're alive, and it was all you know for a couple of days. Kind of it felt like a blip on the radar. Then suddenly they were out. Like in our media, that's kind of how
it seemed. It was like big problem holding breath, people have gone over, experts of debt with it.
They're out.
And then when I read the book, the subtleties of everyone involved had moments of thinking it was over. It was impossible, Like I don't think it was conveyed to the lay person in Australia, how touch and go the situation was, how impossible and unlike you said, like the book is called against all odds, Like I just didn't understand that at the time. So hearing the details has been my favorite story.
Ever to hear.
So can you talk us through You didn't even get there till day thirteen. Elon Musk had already been and gone talk us through the situation.
Yeah, so it's I mean, it didn't seem all that different to us either. I developed slowly and we didn't know what was going to happen. And I mean so this day, as I sit here now, I still really can't believe that we got away with it. Wow, it was pretty radical stuff to be bringing these kids out when it was first suggested that there would be a cave diving rescue through two point two kilometers of a
fairly gnally dive. Really, for us doing it just by ourselves, without taking patience out and rescuing someone, it still would have been a pretty sporting afternoon out really. But to have be in charge of a little living, breathing human and trying to keep them alive, and then you're adding the aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well,
I mean, that's just that's mad stuff. If somebody had come up with this as a script and given it to me to read, I would have thought, nah, mate, it's too far fetched, going to tone it down a little bit, but that's the way it was, and to have gotten all thirteen of them out just still seems unbelievable. We were one hundred percent prepared for casualties. It just seemed fanciful for me me that we'd get them all out.
The only thing that really motivated us was that we knew, we were convinced that if they stayed in the cave, they were doomed. There was no chance of survival. It was going to be months for the cave dried out and the water stop flowing. So we had to give it a go. And even if we just got one out alive, that still would have been an improvement on
none of them surviving, so that was worth it. But it's still weighs fairly heavily upon your shoulders at the time, thinking that we might end up dragging them all out of the cave in body bags would not have been a really very cool scenario.
So again, I think it did seem like we called in the experts. The experts did their thing. You brought them out amazing, But I mean, I didn't even know that before you guys had had the call up. Like first, there was a big period of time where they hadn't
even found the boys. So, you know, so for everyone listening, if you didn't know, the boys went in when the cave was dry, so they were able to walk in, and there was you know, obviously wasn't flooded at the time they went in, and then it flooded and the chambers sort of all filled up, So they were a very very long way in from the entrance where they started, and they obviously got stuck there and couldn't get out.
It took you know, a lot of days to even figure out that where they were if they were alive, and then there was a scram or just sort of figure out how you would ever get them out. I read or I think I heard you on a different podcast saying that, I mean, you got the call with two hours before.
You had to get on the plane.
Had you been waiting for the call? Did you know that they were thinking about because their initial plans weren't to do a cave dive. Were they was there a submarine plan?
There were heaps of plans. It seemed like people from all over the world were just popping their heads up with bright ideas, and it was pretty easy to present yourself as an expert in that environment at the time, so there was all sorts of stuff going on, but all those other plans just one by one they fell away, were eliminated as implausible, are going to take too much time, and it just more and more looked like cave diving.
But days were ticking by. Harry and I are still sitting here in Australia, and even on the day before we left, it looked like we weren't going to get a guernsey and that we weren't really wanted. Up there just seemed to be drifting, and it was pretty chaotic up there as well, because nobody knew what to do. The taie authorities were a bit lost about what the best course of action was, and I can't really blame them for that because there's not really any precedent for
this situation. Of all the things that the governance might have thought of, this was not really on the list, so I certainly can't hold that against them. But it all just really came together over a few hours, and yeah, you're quite right. We got the call to get yourself to the airport, so it had to very hastily because we were all packed up for another dive trip. So I had to unpack, reconfigure, throw some stuff in a bag, and just go. It was pretty frantic at the time.
Do you put your hand up? Like, because I think, you know, normal channels of governments and militaries, you'd kind of be looking at seals and all that kind of stuff. But that having not been successful, how do you guys put your hand up and use the channels? Or were you just waiting for someone to suggest you, like, do.
You know what I mean? How did the kind of logistics work?
Yeah? I know. We were totally volunteered. We were super cane. We've been interested in cave rescue for quite a long time, and the cave diving rescues that don't come around very often. There's only three or depending on how you define it, for cave diving rescues ever occurred, including this one in Wow. And so I was prepared in my own mind to go a whole lifetime without ever going getting to do one.
So when opportunity knocks, your best answer the door. Really Wow. Yeah, we didn't have to be talked into it.
So you took all your own equipment. This was all stuff you had for your own pursues. And you just had to kind of neck it all on over there.
Yeah, somewhat. I took what we thought we would need. As it turned out, we start, we use slightly different equipment, so gathered a bit up when we're over there, but essentially it was our stuff. Yeah, wow, and throw it in. I'm pretty used to packing for trips by now after twenty seven years, so that didn't take very long.
Yeah, although I imagine it's never been such a quite high stakes environment. So can you talk us through the actual nitty gritty of the dive itself? Because again, when I heard that there were divers, I kind of just thought you were going down and that your water is clear in most cases, you know. I was like, oh, you're swimming and look at the fishes, but you know it was coffee colored water. You said two point two k's in and obviously then you have to come back out.
So someone had.
Gone all the way in, and are they laying like a guy for like, how you know where you're going? How tight were the kind of holes that you need to get through? How long was it in and out? Like for us two k's in and out? I don't sort of know what that translates.
To like, yeah, to talk us through the stats of the dive.
So I think the most pertinent thing for people to realize is that we couldn't really see anything at all. The water is filled with silt and mud, and occasionally you just get a bit of a glimpse of some clear water. There were a couple of side passages that were bringing in clear water, but the main river channel everything was done by feel, and so we always place a guideline to follow in cave diving. That is the
number one absolute cast iron rule of cave diving. That you have a continuous guideline from the surface, so you can follow that and that's enough information to get you in and get you out again. And so it just start at the beginning. I mean, it was two point two kilometers in, but that's not for what we do normally. That's not that big a deal. I've been far further
than that. So the day before the rescue started, Harry and I did a WRECKI dive in there just so we could experience the cave for ourselves and see how difficult was going to be, and also to suss the kids out, see how they were going as well, and just what sort of condition that they were in. And it took us about two hours to get in there the first time.
Two hours one way, that's one way to get in.
We had a couple of hours with the kids there and just chatting to them, telling them what was well. We had a letter written in tie with us that explained what was going to happen, and the course was pretty much set for the next day by then, and so that was read out to the kids. They are just oh, yeah, right, you're going to have an anesthetic and dive through the cave whatevers needed. And they were really cool. These kids, they get ten out of ten
from me, no doubt. They were tough little customers. They get a lot of credit. You know, with survival, A big part of it and when you're going to survive or not is just being equal to the task and making the decision that you are going to survive. The rest follows from that. And you hear these stories about people just giving up and the end is inevitable in that case, but I think those kids were pretty determined
that wasn't going to happen to them. That was the trip in and when we're coming out, when had kids with us. Our estimate, which turned out to be pretty accurate, was that it was going to take three hours to get out with them, given that they had to have top ups of anesthetic on the way out, and just you generally looked after.
Oh my goodness.
So, I mean, there's so many I mean, I already know all this, but it just it still gets me every time. It's just so so fascinating that, I mean, the whole thing that the sedation idea, because so if I remember correctly, it was ketamine, and in my brain, this is such a you're not going to think this.
Is such an amateur jump to make intellectually.
But my brain went, oh, that must have been a vet because ketomene is a horse trank closer.
What's that your idea?
No, so it actually, I mean it is pretty pretty widely used in human field medicine. It's okay, like if you're in a car crash or have some sort of accident, they need to do a field procedure on you straighten out your leg or put your shoulder back in after it's just like haded or something like that. There's a fair chance you're going to get kedek in because it's really safe and easy to administer in the field, so
it was perfect. But the actual idea came from the sort of powa veterinary source, a friend of Harry's who's a doctor, but he'd been doing some fieldwork on seals in Antarctica and they were using ketamine to slow the seals down a bit so they can take blood from them, and that was the origin of the suggestion.
Oh my god, I'm in the much as I'd like.
To take credit for it, but I can't really.
I mean, then you had to administer it, so you could definitely take credit for that.
It would be easy. I know my way around a sy engine needle by now.
Okay, Well, the fact that you and Harry do I mean Harry being an an nethetist, but the other divers, their intersection of skills was not necessarily inclusive of administering injections. So was it them who was practicing in like bottles?
Yeah? Yeah, So there were some when it was pointed out to these guys that were going to be administering the anesthetic underwater in a cave, there were some pretty apprehensive faces around the table. Fair enough, but you know, these are the world's best cave divers they can do sort of people, especially since they weren't given much choice in the matter, they eventually decided they were up for
it and decided to give it a go. So, yeah, they had a quick lecture and then they all had a practice because some of them had never given an injection before at all, and so they all injected some water into some plastic coat poddles and that was it. They were good to go. Oh my gosh, seems like a pretty big deal, but in principle, it's pretty simple. You just put the drugs in, the patient goes to sleep, where you go.
Was that to control the sort of panic and disorientation, because obviously they'd never die like normal adults probably would lose their call in that situation having never done it before a little on a small child.
Was that where the idea came from.
Oh totally yeah. I mean, I imagine the situation that these kids were in. They would have to be completely trusting of the diver though were with they wouldn't be able to see anything for it up to three hours. It was going to be a pretty rough old journey going out of this cave. It's not just like swimming down the inside of the pipe of a pipe, there's twists and turns and all sorts of projections and obstacles which I certainly kept swimming into. And they were going
to take a bit of a beating. They were going to get really cold. It was not going to be a fun time for them. And for a lot of people, breathing off scuba underwater is a quite disconcerting experience when they first try it as well. There's a lot of people that don't really take to it straight away. But they weren't going to get any practice. They were just going to be straight into it, and if any of them did panic underwater, then there was pretty much all
over just threshing around uncontrollably under the water. There was not much chance of survival from that. And they could also take a diver out with them as well, because the divers would have compelled to make the best efforts to save these kids. So, as crazy as it seems, we decided that maybe the anesthetic was the best way forward. Oh my gosh, anesthetizing someone and then putting their head underwater for three hours, that is it's not really cool.
It's not something that you do. So it's a little bit dangerous. Yeah.
I mean, I think that's when you really appreciate how dire the situation was otherwise, that that was still the best option, even given how unusual that is. It's interesting to me and I loved hearing that even now you still are surprised that it all worked out, like that's how unlikely it truly was.
Oh yeah, well, look, if we were in the same situation now, I would still be very apprehensive about doing this, and you've looked for any other way of achieving the outcome if you could. But sometimes you've just got to make a choice and get into it.
So my biggest thing that I find really fascinating about the human brain is how, especially now, we are so unaccustomed to stillness or quiet or boredom. It's very like instant gratuity. How can I be stimulated all the time, and like a lot of I think attention issues coming out of the fact that we all need to be stimulated all the time. I imagine that you know, underwater and without any visual stimulation for long periods of time, that it's a scenario that most people don't get an equivalent
of during daily life. We don't have to sit with our thoughts in complete quiet like that very often? What do you think about when you're doing a dive, a normal dive, and then what were you thinking about in Thailand when you're on the way in on the way out?
Like how do you steal the chaos for three hours?
Yeah, so it's not really like that. Like when you're doing the dive self, then it's got your attention. There's always something to think about. Are where you're going, is the equipment? Okay? Where are the other people that are around you? If there are any around you? It's not just boring empty time that does come. So that doesn't really apply to Thailand. But some of the big deep
dives that we do, we do hours and hours. I've done some dives we're doing up to sixteen hours of decompression and they sitting waiting really, so you get to get plenty of time to consider your place in the universe and just think about things.
What do you think of that?
Can you evolution into music underwater or do you use it literally just you and yourself.
I'm not really so much into that. Some people do that. It has its little logistical problems, but they're not insurmountable. That's not a real big thing for me. I don't know, just getting the zone and plan the next start of something like that. Bit of working out any problems in your life, you get the opportunity to reflect on them. Wow, just do what you've got to do. You've done the crime. Just sit there and do the time.
What about in Thailand? Were there any moments even during the dive where, like, apart from the kids, were there any moments where you were sort of like fearful or worried, like for your own safety. I know there was a Thai Navy seal diver who didn't make it. Was it ever sort of dicey for you?
Yeah? No, there was not really, I mean for us. This is not not, by a long shot, the narhlist dive that we've ever done. So I was pretty confident, I mean, happily in a cave, I am invincible and cannot be killed anyway, so I have to worry too much about that. It was all sort of okay from
that point of view, which is much. There was one incident where on the first day of the rescue and there was a problem with the compressor that had been filling our cylinders and we had really bad air and so a few of us were getting getting headaches and getting sick and stuff like that that was not really good. And this was on the dive into the cave to rescue the boys on the first day, so we didn't
really need that very much. So when we had a chance, we sort of marshaled all the cylinders we had and tasted the air out of them as best we could, and I managed to come up with some that weren't going to kill us. But there were some harsh words spoken at the end of that day about the quality of the breathing gas that we were being given. But anyway, that everything always turns out okay in the end, and
so did that. One. The concern that we had was just for the kids that they weren't going to make it through. I mean, at least we were in control of our own destiny, and if something went wrong for us, it was because we'd made a mistake, so we can take responsibility for that. We do it every time we go diving. But those kids, they just had to take
what was coming to them. So, you know, I don't know, like you try and think, well, we were doing the best that we could, and nobody can ask for any more than that, but it still would have been pretty upsetting if we'd started to lose these kids. I don't know, never really came to find out about it.
Well you didn't have to, which is wonderful.
I mean, I can't even imagine, like over it was what three days, I think it dives in and out, in and out and alternating between. Were there four of you, five of you that were sort of alternating going in and out?
Six of us in the yeah, yep, I mean Harry and I had stations. So Harry was in a chamber nine with the boys and he was doing the inductions of the anesthetic and sending them on their way, and I was downstream a bit. So after they had their first dive, which was about three hundred meters so maybe twenty minutes or so, I can't remember exactly, and then they'd come out, there was another dry chamber there, so the boys all had to come out of the water.
It carried across this dry chamber, which was a few hundred meters long, have all their gear taken across, put them back in the water again, and send them on their way. So that was my station. So that was. Yeah,
they were tough. Long days and the other four British divers were actually diving them out, or other five British divers on the last day, so you know, probably like emotionally, the toughest part of it was at the end of that first day when we were bringing four boys out on the first day, so that all gone and we just had to dive ourselves out following them. We gave them a bit of a head start so we didn't catch up to them and just headed out, and of
course we had no idea how things had gone. Harry and I didn't know if we were going to arrive back at dive Base and find four corpses there that hadn't made it. No idea, so the pressure was off us at that stage, but that was all I could really think about, just a bit apprehensive about what the result was going to be. I can clearly remember. I mean, it's one of my outstanding memories is getting back to dive Base on that first day and I just stuck my head out of the water and I said, did
anyone survive? And the guys that were there said, yep, all good, four out of four, no problems. And I'll never really forget that moment, it was just like the weight of the world had been lifted off my shoulders, and you start to think, maybe this crazy plan can actually work against all expectations.
I mean, what an extraordinary an extraordinary thing for humanity, Like it's just it stands out as one of these Yeah, like everyone remembers where they were when they first heard this.
Story, like it's it's absolutely crazy.
And I mean, you know I said to you when I first emailed you, I just think you too a legendary And I know you continue to refer to yourself as just a normal person, but most normal people haven't literally saved sort of the lives of thirteen other human beings and all their extended families and everyone in their lives who you've given you the gift of their future. So just extraordinary blows my mind.
Well, it is a pretty good story. I'm going to admit that.
I mean, you should admit it. It's an amazing story.
What has it been, I mean it's been what four twenty eighteen six years?
Six years? Yeah?
Yeah, how do you feel? How is your relationship to diving now afterwards? Did it change after that? Did you not dive for a little while, like how did How did things feel afterwards?
Oh, I had a bit of catching up to do. That that was a little trip, so it put us behigh. I mean, that was that was pretty good. We had no idea at the time that this was such a huge story around the world because we're just there. It was somewhat isolated, pretty busy.
Yeah, you were busy. You had enough to do.
We weren't watching TV or anything like that. Had a little bit of feedback from home, but that was about it, but just didn't have any comprehension that this was occupying so much attention. And it was really only once we got back to Australia that it became clear to us that we had got a bit of attention and some notoriety I suppose. I mean, it was all all in
a good way. But when you're just an ordinary bloke and then living your life and then all all of a sudden you find yourself at the center of that, having reporters show up at your front door and just continual attention and requests for interviews and stuff like that, just think, well, I didn't really see this one coming.
So the rest of you happened in July. We already had a trip to Canada organized for September October, so we disappeared on that for a month or so, and we thought, well, by the time we come back, we will be forgotten about and all the fussle of died down. We can just get back on with normal life. But it turned out that it was not quite that way, and it's just been going on ever since. I mean, even six years later, there's still a hunger for this story.
I mean, it's just a great story where everybody's a winner, apart from Saman Gunan, who was the one Thai guy that died diving in the cave. But apart from that, it's just like a one hundred percent great story for everyone, and everybody seems to have some angle. It doesn't matter who you are, but if you're a kid or a parent, or you're interested in rescue or emergency services, or there's a medical aspect to it, or a diver or an adventurer,
everybody's got some point of connection with this story. And you don't get that. I can't really think of another example where everybody's got such a direct point of connection to it. And it's just a fantastic outcome where really victory is snatched from the jaws of defeat at the last minute. So I guess it makes sense that people are so okay on the story.
Absolutely, I just yeah, I love it. Like I said, it's like my favorite story ever. And if anyone I come across hasn't heard of it, I insist on telling them the entire thing because I think it is.
Yeah.
I mean, there are so many bad news stories that you continually hear, and yet you want these ones to win in people's attention because it's an amazing Yeah, it's an amazing story to tell. It's so uplifting, and yeah, everyone does have a point of connection what they don't all have a point of connection with is I think even if you aren't interested in cave diving or rescue or Thailand or anything, it's still a story that everyone
can find or in. But even if you aren't interested in cave diving, I also think that finding out about the niche community that it is is still fascinating because before we finish off the tie rescue, but just diving in general, Like I would love to know what's the longest you've ever dived and what's the coolest place you've been what's the place that you want to go in your lifetime that no one else has gone? And specifically because I'm all my brain ticks over logistics of stuff.
How do you go to the bathroom when you're doing a sixteen hour dive?
Like?
How do you do because you don't reservice?
Right? Like?
How do you like, you know, talk us through it.
There's a lot of questions there as far as longest dives. Depends which way you look on, So I'll give you three different answers to that question. So the longest diving time is just about just over seventeen hours. Longest dive in distance is eleven.
Kilometers down or sideways or every.
Waste, yeah, alongside distance from the entrance and deepest dive two hundred and eighty four meters So that site. That's a site in South Africa that Harry and I dived earlier this year and it was until a few years ago the deepest cave dive in the world. But there's a couple of deeper dives that have been done.
Yeah, wow, how do you eat? Do you get starving over seventeen hours? And yeah, bathroom like what do you do thirsty as well?
Yeah, well, if you're in fresh water, you can drink the water, so that's not really a problem. But let's see easier solution of all that. One don't even have to take a drink with you. If you're in the ocean or in salt water, then that's not the case you but you can drink out of a drink bottle, just like a squeezy bottle. That's no problem as far
as food goes. So sometimes we have habitats underwater, particularly when it's really cold water, and so we just have a little inverted bag basically that we'll fill up with air, and you can climb up into that and sit there and you can have a bit of a feed, so your friends and support divers will bring you down something to eat and drink in there. It's quite a pleasant
environment compared to actually being in the water. But at other times, if you're doing all of the decompression in the water, then you can still eat, particularly like something like a chocolate bar or something like that. You just have to make sure that you take small bites because once you take a bite, you have to eat all of that and swallow it before you can take another breath, and you don't Oh yeah, that's the track for young players. We all learn when we first start, but get used
to that. As far as going to the toilet, so number one is not really any problem or particularly for boys anyway. Just a bit of plumbing, a little raincoat on the old fellow with a tube coming out at the end and that's easily achieved. But yeah, number two has just got to plan ahead and wow, time bit of a bit of a low fiber diet for a day or two events is advisable.
Right, Okay, so you actually do have to like, yeah, do your prayers like the reverse card loading that people don't marathons and stuff.
That's okay, We've been doing all this stuff for a long time. We're aware of all the issues.
And is there a dive that you have yet?
Do you have like kind of a list of dives in your lifetime that you want to conquer and is there one that you're just like can't not have done or is there one that you're planning to do?
Well, it's not really like that because it's exploration is really the name of the game. So the dives you want to do are the ones that haven't been done yet. Ah, So always looking really, but I've got a few projects on the go, and so this year I've been to China and there is so much to do up there and it's virtually untouched. Really, there are lifetimes of exploration. So I've hooked up with a few of the Chinese divers up there and looking forward to going back there.
There's lots to do. Spain is another big place. I'm involved in a project over there that's the longest cave divers in furthest distance from the entrance. So I was there with Jason Mallinson, another one of the divers from the Cave Rescue, and going back there next year again in August and September, so hopefully extend that one as well.
I mean, probably my career defining dive has been this cave in New Zealand that we've been going to called the Pierce Resurgence, and that's been going there for so Harry first went there in two thousand and seven. I came along a little bit later twenty ten, but I've been on eight expeditions there now and keeps getting deeper and going further and that's really cold water too, just
to make it even more unpleasant. So just organizing now for another trip up there, going there in February and getting ready to lay a bit more light.
Amazing. Oh well, that's so exciting. I just yeah, I can't even imagine. I mean, like, I hate being cold and don't love being well like I love Yeah, I just can't imagine it. But I love how much you love doing it, and I hope that February's dive goes really well. I'm so so grateful for your time. And I know you've probably rehashed this story a million times, but I don't think it will ever get old.
It is just such a good one and spark so much joy.
Yeah. Well, there's still plenty more dives to do, so if anybody listening is Keane, I really recommend it to you. There's stuff out there. There's still so much exploration to do, and just go out get yourself the training first, listen to me on that one. Yeah, then get into it. There's a lot of excitement to be had.
Well, I really do hope that across these two episodes there is an aspiring cave diver out there who might not have otherwise done it, but who now that they know that there is so there are so many things that you can do and that you can make a twenty seven year career out of it if you want to and going and counting, and you can do it, you know, all over the world. I hope that there is at least one who's been listening who chooses to continue pursuing it because.
Of you, guys.
I hope so too.
Thank you so much, Craig. It's been an absolute pleasure. For those who haven't read the book. I'll make sure to include Aleek in the show notes because still one of my favorite books ever. There's much more detail if you've enjoyed the detail we're listening to that you've listened to in this and thank you so much for joining it.
Was really enjoyed it. Thanks Sarah.
Oh my goodness. I mean I've already read their book against all odds many times. I've watched the documentaries, I've watched the movies, but I'm never any less blown away.
What an incredible feat.
I wish I could have kept chatting for hours or crawled into Craig's brain to understand more. It really makes me so enthusiastic about humanity, and I hope you guys found some inspiration too. If you enjoyed, please do share the episode on socials or take a minute to leave us a review. I always forget to ask. I mean, in seven years, we've only amassed I think less than a thousand, and that's because I'm so bad at asking.
But it really does mean so much to keep growing the neighborhood, even now in what.
Is our eighth year, which blows me away. It means a lot to keep us going.
So if you haven't subscribed or left a review, I'd so appreciate you taking the time. And in the meantime, I hope your February is off to a great start and you're seizing your yay