Ep 04. Starting Succession Conversations

Shannon  0:15  
Today's episode is brought to you by the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources and the seeds of wellbeing or SOW project. So this podcast is supported by the Farm and Ranch Stress Assistance Network grant from the US Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and the Hawaii Department of Agriculture.

Mele  0:36  
Aloha, welcome, everyone to the SOW podcast aimed to provide educational support information, guidance and outreach to farmers, ranchers and our allied agriculture producers. In Hawaii, we are your host Mele Oshiro and Shannon Sand. And today we're going to be talking with Heather Greenwood-Junkermeier, the intergenerational extension agent over in Maui County. And she works in the areas of intergenerational and aging programs.

Shannon  1:07  
Yes, thank you so much for joining us, Heather, we really appreciate you taking the time to visit with us today.

Mele  1:12  
Yeah, you'd like to share a little bit more about how you came to be here and your position over on Molly?

Heather  1:19  
Yes. For many years, I had worked in Northern Virginia, the DC area with Cooperative Extension. And in 2008, a coworker forwarded the position announcement. And it was a really great fit, because of my background in lifespan development. And particularly because I have interest in working with families who are preparing for retirement and later life. The best thing though, was that my best friend and her family and cute kids lived on the Big Island, and it was a chance to be near my second family. I learned the hanai family when I came here. And it perfectly described my relationship with this family.

Mele  2:04  
Yeah, that makes transitioning to a new place so much easier when you have those connections. So yeah, you want to share maybe a little bit more about some of your programs and explain to people what exactly intergenerational agents do because some folks don't really know and understand what that what that exactly means what that means.

Heather  2:24  
Right now, I'm the one of just a few who have intergenerational responsibilities. And like all Cooperative Extension programs, we address community identified needs that can be addressed through an educational process. The unique aspect of intergenerational programs is that we, it, they are topics that impact multiple generations, like family caregiving, grandparents raising grandchildren, retirement and business succession planning decisions, and they can be addressed by bringing those multiple generations together.

Mele  3:03  
I know I didn't really know when I first started word really makes sense. And it does just explain itself is intergenerations between your family. But very interesting 

Heather  3:12  
One thing I like about intergenerational programs is that you are working with audiences. And you can bring any specific topic or subject matter into that. And so by bringing the experts together, we can really focus on a lot of different topics that are impacting multiple generations.

Shannon  3:33  
And I feel like that's a very like, I don't know, for me, that just happens in Hawaii, because like, there's so much intergenerational like, I feel like knowledge and wealth that like happens here. It's one of the things that I don't know, is uniquely Hawaii. And amazing that I don't think I make any sense when I say that. Hopefully, ya'll know what I mean

Mele  3:53  
No. I think so because you know, a lot of the communities, it's a it becomes family, you know, and so when you have situations or whatnot, it's always as different generations of groups of people, right, that are working together in a certain business or profession, or even just like I said, within the communities. Yeah,

Heather  4:16  
there was a specific time when I was with extension in Virginia, that it was an aha moment and helped me to realize I needed to go into the intergenerational field or focus. Were working with some youth who had a lot of nutritional challenges. And we met in the school with their school counselor once a week and we had all of these really great activities that were focused on helping them to thrive nutritionally and weight wise. But because they didn't have the support of their parents and grandparents in that I ran into several of them the following year, and they were, they continue to struggle, they had gained weight. And so that was kind of the point that I realized I can't do programs with just one audience because we don't make decisions in a one generation study, we need to have everyone on board. And so there are a lot of programs on on the mainland with some extension programs that focus on the entire family that dines for diabetes, rather than just the person who has diabetes. Because when the family buys in, then the person who has the illness is benefiting, but everyone else is benefiting because they're eating properly. So that's kind of the heart of intergenerational is that we're looking at more of a system than a one generation audience.

Mele  6:01  
Nice. Yeah. And that system is what really makes a lot of the I would say entities here work. You know, I mean, so many of our producers are, family, you know, family farms or whatnot. So you want to talk a little bit more then about what maybe our ag professionals here in Hawaii, you know, the average, what do they look like? Yeah, who are they?

Heather  6:24  
So every five years or so, the Department of Agriculture puts out an Ag Census. And our last one was in 2017. And the average Hawaii ag business owner, age increased to 60.1 years, and it was several years from the previous census. So at age 60, most ag producers are either wanting to continue in their profession until they die or they are, they're starting to think about retirement. And if they're owning a business, it's not that you can just put your two weeks or your month or you're year notice in, there is a lot of decision making that goes in to either closing the business, or planning for that to go to either younger generations or to like minded ag producers, or maybe even to be sold, and the land is used for other purposes. But we didn't have a whole lot of the data on what ag producers needed to better plan for their succession needs.

Shannon  7:48  
So since there's not a lot of data or information, do you have an idea of what type of succession planning information and resources are available for ag producers in the state?

Heather  7:59  
Yes, so there have been a lot of educational programs like workshops about very specific topics that relate to succession, but there weren't a lot of opportunities to learn more, or learn more in depth about what the ag producers are saying that they need and this type of support that they are requesting. So in 2016, a group of agriculture agents, myself and some ag professionals in Maui established the Maui agriculture business succession project, we received some funding from the Maui County Office of Economic Development. And our group had a goal of collecting data for a baseline of Maui County's ag business owners succession needs. So the first step is that we put together a needs assessment of about 30 or 40 questions, we had that available to complete online as well as hard copies. And we we focused our questions around two different general subject matters or topics. One was, what their current business plans or practices were. And then the second limb was their current succession plans. So in the business plans, we asked about their operations and the long term range goals that they had set the succession plans. We asked questions about their post retirement plans if they had any and had thought about it. And one of the questions was about whether they had dedicated their land to agriculture. If they had succession plans, if they had written anything down regarding their succession plans, and I if they had

Shannon  9:59  
Getting them to put it in writing is half the challange. 

Heather  10:01  
A lot of them have thought about it. But they had not written it down. And many of them had not even begun having conversations with their family. And because a lot of the Ag businesses are family based businesses, that's an important thing is to include all the family in that discussion.

Shannon  10:23  
Well, that's a whole thing in and of itself. Is when you're including your family in that discussion, I mean, yeah, that's a that's a pretty large. I don't want to say can of worms, but I want to say can of worms. Discuss it with your family make those decisions. That's a lot. It's a lot of information to take in. So yeah,

Mele  10:43  
So are they putting it off because they don't know where to start? Or is it because they don't want to? They don't know who to? I mean, I know sometimes, too, it's because they're not even sure who in the family, if it is a family business, is going to be the right fit to hand it over to.

Heather  11:04  
So we heard a lot of common themes, both in the needs assessment, as well as in conversations that we were having with the business owners. And some of the common themes that came up, were that, in their mind succession means that they're declining in their health, that they're going to be retired and put out to pasture that it means later life. It also it might mean death.

Shannon  11:34  
yeah, that's a scary thought for a lot of people.

Heather  11:37  
And especially here in Hawaii, we don't talk about death, that's not culturally something that we approach. And so that was one really common theme is that we just don't talk about it because it brings up some scary thoughts. Another reason that families were putting off the conversation is that they didn't have anyone within the family who was interested in taking over business. Some of them also said that they had differing ideas, their children or grandchildren had different ideas about what should happen to the business. Some said, well ag right now, it's really tough to make a profit. So let's sell the land and let's get rich. And so when those kind of differences of opinions are coming up, now remember, our take home message was that almost all of them wanted to keep their ag or their land in ag. I think it was 95% that said, Yes, I'm committed to keep it in ag long term after my retirement. But if they're all of these different opinions, it's much easier to just put it off and not have that conversation.

Shannon  13:05  
Yeah.

Mele  13:06  
I can see definitely that happening. That's probably a bigger reason, right? Just not wanting to have the conversation at that time.

Heather  13:15  
And some of the, there are, it's interesting, because there are a couple different perspectives. There's the business owner, and often the spouse and siblings who are the have the business in their names. But then they have their the younger generations, who will be impacted by the succession plans, right. So either taking over the business or getting some of the profits if the business is sold. And so sometimes the younger generations are afraid to bring up the topic, because they don't want to seem like they're greedy. They don't want to, yeah, we want this inheritance, we want to know how much money so it's just better for the younger generation to not bring it up either. So there are reasons on both sides to the different generations for not having the conversation.

Mele  14:07  
But there's I think there's so much benefit, right for folks to start that conversation early. Almost before you even start to have the disagreements right to really have that conversation. And while the actual owners or you know, the the elders of the business is willing and able to be able to be in the right mindset to have the conversation, I guess, right? Yes.

Heather  14:34  
So one of the other questions that we asked right after, do you want to keep your land and ag was how important is it to maintain harmony within the family as you're having these conversations, and that was rated as a really high priority. And so there are a lot of benefits to beginning the conversation now because it doesn't have to be put off until age 60 or 65 or 80 the having a conversation early on situating it and this idea that we want to maintain harmony, we want to have open communication, we want everyone to have peace of mind about the plans for the future. It's also this process conversations allow all of the generations to better understand one another's goals, or wishes, for now, and, and the future one. And this was when I was in college, one of my I was at a land grant university. And so we had a lot of ag programs. My roommate was a dairymanʻs daughter. And so she said that when their dairy passed from her grandfather to her father, that the grandfather clearly said, if you guys start to argue, I'm putting you out of my will. So it was very clear to them, that the most important thing was harmony. And that has stuck with me 

Shannon  16:05  
Oh, thatʻs so smart.

Heather  16:06  
Yeah. And that stuck with me. And and he was very clear to the entire family, that this business is less important than the relationships, and I'm going to give you a good reason to keep those relationships together.

Mele  16:21  
Yeah, that's a smart, I mean, that's a very smart way to do it, right? Because I think that that's where a lot of falling outs become is not really knowing what the parents or grandparents really wanted and what they're, you know, and one says one thing one says something else, you know, you need to have almost that transparency and conversation,

Shannon  16:41  
have it have the conversation have the I mean, I don't know, I know, when I've done estate and transition planning for people, a big thing is to have ground rules and things like that kind of set before you go in to have those discussions and stuff.

Heather  16:56  
So there, that's a great segue into strategies that people can utilize. And so there are a lot of different strategies to bring up a conversation, or to start that conversation that is consistent with cultural norms. That is, it shows respect to all generations. So a few ideas. The first one is to keep a humorous attitude. Again, going back to my college roommate, everyone in the family knew and actually would kind of laugh about grandpa's requirement. And so it lightens the load, or lighten the mood. Another strategy is to look for natural opportunities to talk about it. So saying something like I've seen some friends or neighbors that have had some challenges as they've made either end of life decisions or business decisions. And I don't want that to happen in our family. I want us to be on good terms. Another idea is to prepare for the conversations. And this can be either the business owner that's preparing for that conversation or the younger generations. So putting together an outline with main topics. And even practice the conversation before the the conversation starts. Another one that I work with a lot in many of my caregiving programs is using "I" messages to describe wishes or plans, or needs or wants. When you say I want or need this, or I hope for this, it's a good way to start conversations. When we use "you" messages, it's much more of a blaming.

Mele  19:09  
Yeah, the finger pointing.

Heather  19:12  
And then you go on this spiral of blame and the conversation the topic that you might have outlined really well. It doesn't go down the way that you have it. Yeah. And so asking questions, also to clarify, what you have heard is what everyone was saying. I also say you can blame it on me. Say Heather, I went or listened to this podcast and Heather said that I shall be talking about this so it's not me that's bringing up the conversation. It's Heather.

Shannon  19:50  
also, it sounds crazy, but I know people that have done when they've gone in to do this again, they find that a professional mediator is honestly a great way to do it and there are ag mediators through I think the Department of Ag and several Ku‘ikahi, I probably said that wrong. So I'm sorry. But there, 

Mele  20:08  
the Ku‘ikahi Mediation Center. 

Shannon  20:10  
Oh, thank you so much. But the but those are actually great ways because honestly, it sounds terrible. But sometimes your family behaves better. It's like your kids when they go to like someone else's house. And they're so well behaved and youʻre like but theyʻre not that way at home and sometimes you need that. And that is really helpful, because also a mediator is trained in facilitation and can help you set the, like the group set ground rules and stuff. And honestly, I mean, a lot of times, I feel like people come out of it happier.

Heather  20:39  
There's a program called Hawaii ag mediation program, itʻs HIAMP, and I don't have the contact information right now. But I'll will put it in the show notes. podcast notes. Another natural strategy or are using right now, hopefully, the people who are listening to this, we're out of the COVID. But right now we're in COVID, as we are, when you can use "what if" questions, so what if one of us has a really bad, serious, COVID infection, and we're not able to run the business for two months. So we're not making these succession decisions. Just because of later life, it could be temporary illness or injury. And so the succession plans, you can use those just kind of a temporary, this is where mom or dad, one of the business to go. And so while we're stepping in, we're going to run it and operate it the way that they would if they could. And so again, it doesn't have to be talking about this because of death. There are a lot of reasons that will keep us or someone from being able to run the business as they as they wish.

Shannon  22:03  
Yeah, yeah. And I guess I've done stuff, we always call it succession and transition. And I always think transition is probably one of the best words to use for it. Because especially when you're in agriculture, I always feel like it's not a matter of if you get hurt, it's a matter of when it's like a fourth generation farmer, like some point, you're gonna be down and out for a little while, whether it's a week or two weeks, or three or four months or longer. Having an idea of what's gonna happen if I'm out and I can't do what needs to be done. How's it gonna get done? You know? Yeah, helpful. 

Heather  22:35  
One thing we also learned from the needs assessment is that a lot of the ag business owners had different aspects of their business plans that had pookas. And so in a later grant from Maui County Office of Economic Development, we looked at some of those areas that had gaps, just around business planning. So if there's an injury, if there are job descriptions, in the business plan, then that helps the person who's coming in to identify what people do, or what they need to do. So put together a job description for the business owner for all of the staff. And so although we started the Maui ag, we call it Maui ag business succession planning program, which was way too long. We edited it to traditions were traditions to transition. So traditions as we're going through transitions. And so that tradition is a lot of the business plans, its personnel plans, its financial plans, it's the processes that make the business profitable. It's also the processes that need to be in place when there is a succession so that the property value or the business value is as accurate as possible. And so there, we learned a lot. We learned that ag business owners were thinking about it but not talking, that there were a lot of resources that they needed to have in place before they could really put a lot of succession planning into play. And that there are strategies to begin conversations with being very there are ways to have these conversations that maintain the dignity of everyone. And that support the cultural values of age and wisdom, and the especially the wisdom that is built up over years. 

Shannon  25:13  
that experiential knowledge is really important. Because I mean, you need to know why somebody is using the West field instead of the East field, because maybe at certain times of the year it floods really bad and you can't get in and do anything to like making sure you get that not this just because that's the way it's always done. Just making sure it's there's solid understanding on both ends of the spectrum. 

Mele  25:34  
Generational knowledge is always very important for that

Heather  25:40  
that kind of was a full circle on this is that the team put together a succession planning workbook. And I went back to extension in Virginia, because I knew the specialist who were working on that, and worked closely with them, as well as North Carolina, North Carolina State University Extension, and modified and adapted, one of the manuals that they use in those two states, to better fit some of the needs of Maui, but really all of Hawaii's ag business owners, and so we'll share that resource, or you can contact me for that electronic manual.

Shannon  26:26  
That would be great. Thank you for sharing that, Heather.

Mele  26:29  
Yeah, thank you, Heather. And we're so glad that you were able to be on the show today. Thank you for taking the time to talk story with Shannon and I and share this information with everybody out there. I think it's very important that folks know where they can get some help and how important it is to have that plan in place. Anything else you'd like to add?

Heather  26:50  
just thank you for inviting me to this and for starting the conversation about starting that conversation!

Shannon  26:59  
Itʻs an important one to have.

Heather  27:02  
Yeah, and it's not one that you'll have, in a one time sit down conversation. Itʻs going to take time. 

Shannon  27:10  
And in some cases, it can take more than a year. I know people that it took to do Transition Plans, it's take two or three years to get it all done, to have those conversations and then to get it on paper and all that stuff. So it can take a while.

Heather  27:24  
One of the team members is Buddy Nichols with USDA Farm Service here in Hawaii. And he was one of our guest presenters. And he said, it is really easy to start a business, you can start one almost overnight. But to either transition or to close down a business is going to take five years. And so keeping that in mind that any type of transition is going to take time. And the earlier you start the conversations, the better informed everyone will be.

Shannon  28:07  
Thank you so much, Heather. 

Mele  28:08  
Yeah, thank you.

Shannon  28:11  
Thank you, Heather. And for everyone listening, please be sure to visit the seeds of well being or SOW website and our YouTube channel listed in the shownotes.

Mele  28:20  
Yes, and for additional information about this topic, you can see the links that are provided in our show notes or contact Heather for the Ag succession planning workbook that was developed as part of their Maui project. And also just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, please complete the SOW needs assessment survey, which you can find on our website, and the link will be in our show notes. So thanks again for listening everyone to the SOW podcast.

Shannon  28:47  
And before we go show some love for your favorite podcast by leaving us a review on Apple podcasts or anywhere you listen to this podcast and then stay tuned for next month.

Mele  28:57  
We'll see you a hui ho thank you for listening

Transcribed by https://otter.ai