The Limousin lineup: The benefits of crossbreeding

This is Seeds for Success, a show where we have a good yarn about ag life with producers who are having a go. On the show, you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales who are out there battling the elements, making tough calls, and getting the job done. You'll get a laugh out some of their stories, and also pick up some know- how along the way. I'm your host, Neroli Brennan. Today we're having a yarn with Sherrie

Good day, listeners. Today I'm out near Bedgerebong. Welcome to the Seeds for Success podcast.

Thank you.

Can you just start off by giving us a bit of rundown of your property here at Mount Pleasant?

Yep. Here we are a combination of four properties completely joined together, just under 2, 000 acres. And here we run about a hundred head of breeding female stud Limousin cows, and then obviously their progeny that is up and coming over a two- year period, as well as trying to do some pasture improvements.

And so are you doing cropping as well?

We do cropping, but purely for fodder purposes. So generally, we will use grazing oats and lock up probably three paddocks to cut hay from, hopefully, if the season's good enough.

You are obviously focused on your Limousins, but my ears always perk up when I hear about pastures. Can you talk us through what your pastures are?

Yes. We are currently improving our pastures. We do have probably five paddocks of lucerne. Don't ask me the variety, sorry. But we are looking at doing a Phalaris, clover, sub clover, and lucerne pasture mix in the wetter paddocks. And yeah, hopefully into the next year, we'll be able to graze over the summer months with the summer rain, have paddock feed.

And what are the sort of soil types here? We're sort of in the foothills of the Jemalong Range. What would you describe your soil types as?

I would say it's that lovely black self- composting soil, but that lovely black soil that when you walk across it, you gain three inches in height because it likes to stick to absolutely everything.

Yeah. So, some nice spongy heavy soils?

Yes. Yes.

Do you cover any of the hill, any of the lighter stuff, or no?

We basically go to the tree line of the hill and then that's it. The hill paddocks are good if it's super wet. That way, there's a base in it where the cattle don't bog up. So yeah, I've got two paddocks that are very helpful in winter when it's wet.

Yeah. So how long have you been on the place for?

Luke and I purchased it I think back in 2002, just after we all married. So yeah. And it was a fairly bare block, so we've done a fair bit to it over the 20- odd years that we've owned it.

Have you found that it's been easier to start with a bare block or would you have preferred to sort of had something a bit more established?

Probably something a bit more established in regards to fences because that's always fun with stock if your fences aren't a hundred percent. But it has been good in that we can look at where we would like everything in regards to the cattle yards. We're able to see where

So what's your background in? Are you a Forbes girl?

I'm a Forbes girl, but grew up with sheep, so the whole cattle stud thing was a very new concept and I thought my husband was mad when he suggested it, but I do much prefer cattle over sheep.

Why is that?

Listen, cattle are a lot smarter and... I mean, in saying that, you just give sheep a little bit more time and they'll see where you want them to go, but there's something about cattle. I suppose growing up with horses, they're similar shape and size as well, but there's just... Yeah, I get along with cattle a lot easier.

So, your son and your husband are both livestock agents as well here at Forbes?

They are. Yes.

What's it like having two agents in the family? Is it a help or more of a hindrance?

It's probably both. In saying that, though, when I ask for... You know, leading up to our bull sale, I'll say, " How about we go through these bulls?" I get put on the back- burner because there's just too much other work. But it is good. They're very good. I have a chat to them and say, " Right, what do you think?

Yeah, I bet they'd be flat out. And you're not being able to nail them down at a certain time. Maybe you just need to be a bit tougher with mum or wife duties or something.

Well, I feel, yeah, their tea might be limited to eggs on toast if they don't start listening to my wishes a little bit more, possibly.

That's a good one. But that aspect of your husband and son being very knowledgeable as well in marketing and that sort of thing, does that come into your business at all?

A little bit. I generally just cruise along myself in a sense. I'll get their opinions and advice, but generally I'll use a photographer for photos and videos and things, and the boys will sort of say, " Right, let's do an ad here or here." Otherwise, I sort of just run the show.

Yeah, yeah. You've said that you're got a Limousin stud, so we might launch into that a bit. Firstly, why do you grow Limos?

I was thinking about that the other day actually. And originally Luke, when he was a youngster starting out with Kevin Miller, they used to do the Tobias Limousins annual sale. And I remember Luke coming home with a cow called Carrots, Tobias Carrots, and I can't remember the bull calf's name, but we've always had an interest in these Limousin cows. Eventually we bought the farm and bought some

And so you like the fact that they're adding increased weight and carcass attributes to your vealers, you said?

Absolutely. We breed pure Limos, obviously, here, but we've always had an interest putting them over sort of those Black Baldy, Angus- cross cows. And, yeah, the calves come out nice and punchy with a bit of shape, and do great in steer comps. But yeah, there's just something about the Limo cows that I absolutely love.

Yeah. And so all like sandy- colored Limos or you got some... Could you maybe start by outlining the differences?

Yeah. We have got, obviously, apricot cows. And then we eventually went into some black genetics. We've noticed the trend in the market is predominantly preferably black, so we tend to buy homo polled, homo black bulls, so we can put those over the cows and we're guaranteed then a black calf that's hornless, that's polled. That helps our clients when they buy the calves, they're not having to deal with horns,

Yeah. You've mentioned sort of homo and black and polled. That's homozygous that you're talking about?

Yep, yep.

Could you just maybe talk through that a little?

Yep. That means that, say, the bull has two genes of polled, so that means he will only throw polled calves, and the same with black. If he's homo black as we call it, he'll have two dominant black genes and he'll only throw the black over an apricot cow.

And so, where you are sourcing your genetics from, they're testing for that. How do they know that?

A lot of studs, whether they're Angus, Shorthorn, Limos, a lot of them do genetic tests, and you usually either can do a punch in the ear for some tissue or you pull some hair samples out of their tail dock and send that away, and they do their magic at the lab and come back with the results.

Yeah, that'd be pretty invaluable for people just chasing that black coat, because it doesn't seem to be if they're purebred this or purebred that, as long as they've got a black, or a dark coat even sometimes, they attract that premium.

Yes, absolutely.

So where do you source your genetics from?

Everywhere. Obviously, docility is another big factor in the cattle stud, because I am a chicken and do all the work by myself predominantly, so I do need quiet cattle. But yeah, we've had cattle obviously from Donna Valley, Birubi, who have now dispersed, Clearday Park, Tobias. There's Summit Limousins, Flemington, Mandayen, there's a whole heap of them out there.

Is there a trend in the numbers of Limousin cattle getting bred or where do you see that going?

I would like to think we're holding steady. Few studs have probably diversified and maybe gone Limousin and as well as, say, an Angus stud. But yeah, I think we're holding steady, which is nice.

Yeah, good. I think it's so important to have these different breeds of cattle so that you can offer people different things in different environments and different enterprises.

Yes. Absolutely. Every breed's got a purpose, and certainly, different attributes will suit your program better. You've got to work out what you are breeding for and which genetics will work.

So what are you looking for in a bull when you go out to select one?

Obviously homo polled, homo black is helpful, but definitely docility is the top one on my list. Got to be super quiet. Then obviously feet, because if they've got bad feet, that longevity of that bull, or even the cow, it's not there. So that's also important. Then obviously scrotal size for a bull and the udder development for cows. You want something nice and even. And obviously with the

I find that really interesting and maybe a good sign that you probably haven't even mentioned carcass characteristics there in your top five. You're after temperament, fertility, sort of longevity, being able to get around the paddock.

Yes.

Probably Limos are in the ballpark that most of them just seem to be naturally really well- muscled.

Yes, there is the gene... And I'll have to double check. I think it's FL94, I should have done my homework there. And obviously that's also a gene that the Limousins especially can test for. And if there are two carriers, they're predominantly more muscled.

Is that the double- muscling gene?

Yes. The double- muscling gene. Absolutely. We obviously want a muscled bull, say, but he doesn't need to be heavily muscled because obviously our cows are muscled as well.

So are you picking for muscle scores, say?

Yes and no. I think the feet, the docility, and the fertility are probably more important because that carries over to the female line. His daughters. It's passed onto his daughters, I should say.

We've talked a lot about the benefits of Limos. Is there any sort of perceived weaknesses in the breed?

Definitely temperament, especially because when they first come over from France, I'm told they were quite... I suppose spicy. So we've worked really hard in our area, especially to show that, hang on, no, Limos aren't... Yes you can, but it's in every breed, too, there can be a temperament issue, but that temperament issue that they were well known for, we've worked hard on breeding that out of them.

Yeah. I think listeners are probably sick of me saying it, but there's as much variation within breeds as there is between breeds sometimes.

Yes.

Like you can have muscled Limos and you can have probably D- scored muscled Limos. The same in Angus or Shorthorn or any of the other breeds.

Yep. Absolutely.

Yeah. All of that temperament, it comes a lot down to management as well.

Well, that's it too. That's it too. You're obviously not going to have quiet cattle, I suppose, if you only drive around them and walk around them once a year

Yeah, they just get that sense of calmness, I guess.

Yeah. Well there's no threat, I suppose, too. Yeah.

The question ever come up about large birth weights or birthing difficulty?

Not really. And I suppose that too, there's a few factors on that. The cow line can have a little bit to do with that. In our little herd, we've worked out that there are some females that can throw a bigger calf due to their genetics that were further back down the line. But also it can depend on your season. This season, especially with all the summer rain we've had, we're calving heifers now, and touch wood, we've

That last trimester of a pregnancy is really important.

Yep, absolutely. Well, I like to calf my heifers down in autumn because I find the feed's just a little bit less, and then once they've got the calf on that ground, usually by then we've got an oat crop that they can go in on and pick back up on.

Yeah, that's a really good strategy I think because you've obviously got your two big calving times of autumn and spring. Spring in our environment is usually a pretty good, pretty handy, especially in this beautiful country off the Lachlan a little. So yeah, I think that's probably an out of the box way of thinking.

Yeah. And the mature cows just go in spring and poke along usually, unassisted. Every now and then you might have a bigger calf, or generally, I've breached birth where they've needed that assistance. We had one or two where I've sort of picked up something's not right. But generally speaking, yeah, the girls are good by themselves.

So where are some of your clients?

Generally, we've got quite a few in the Central West area, which is really good. I've got a few from up north that... I used to have a sign out on the Parkes road on my grandmother's farm and there was just a fellow that drove past and went, " Oh wow, I'll give them a call." And his bull, Jim Bean, Mount Pleasant Jim Bean, is still going strong, I'm

Yeah, I have seen the Mount Pleasant Limousins sign at the entrance to the Forbes sale yards before, so I was like, oh yeah, that's where they are.

Yes. Yep.

Right. So have you got a strategy for marketing? I did notice coming out here that you've got a fairly popular Facebook page of Mount Pleasant Limos.

Yes. I'm probably not quite as active on that as I should be. But yeah, so marketing- wise, we have got social media, so that's Facebook and Instagram obviously. We also, leading up to the sale, we will do usually a promotional in the Western magazine. And then there's also in the Central West spring breeders special, I think, insert and we usually place an ad in that. And if I

Yeah. Probably doesn't hurt having a couple of agents on the books as well.

That's right. That's right. They can be helpful too. Yes.

Oh, that's good. So you touched on cross- breeding there before. Are many of your clients using cross- breeding in their operations?

Definitely. Definitely. They're generally putting them over either Angus- cross cows or we've got some Santa- cross cows. They're doing it for the hybrid vigor. Generally, we've got a client out of the west area that sells his vealers basically straight off mum and into the fat market and goes really well. So that's great to see.

Yeah. Can you explain what hybrid vigor is?

Basically, hybrid vigor is because the Limousins are such a heavily muscled breed, when you cross them over a British bred, so your Shorthorns or your Herefords or your Angus, they just add that extra muscling punch. So they tend to weigh a little bit heavier over the scales and finish that little bit quicker.

Because I'm an agronomist, and the listeners will know that, I actually did a little bit of research on MLA's website. That sort of direct, I think it's called, or an F1 progeny will have about 8. 5% up to 10% higher growth rates than just what a normal purebred would've been. And then if you're using that F2 maternal mother, it compounds on that as well, so you can get up to up to 23% increased growth.

Yeah. Yeah, no, it's very exciting to see. And as I mentioned earlier, we started off... Well, our interest in the Limousin was using that Limousin bull over our Black Baldy cows, so it's great to see our clients doing the same thing.

Yeah. What did that animal look like?

I suppose because they're out of an Angus- based herd, that was predominantly a darker coated calf, but they just had that shapey little rump area, and yeah, just that little bit heavily muscled.

So it's the muscling that makes a good candidate for Limos in the hybrid vigor?

Yep. And I suppose if you're crossing over a softer animal, you definitely want that double- muscled gene bull, the AA gene, that'll help throw that punch.

Yeah. You also mentioned that some of your clients have got Santa cattle, was it?

Yes. Santa- cross cows. Yep.

And they're crossing as well with Limos.

Yeah, yeah. So it's great to see.

So the Bos indicus is still... Yeah, it's a good candidate to try and bulk them up and get some more muscle on them.

Yep. We did actually sell six bulls two years ago up into Queensland, so that was really exciting to have that opportunity.

Are you still cross- breeding in your own operation in a commercial sense, or your focused now is purely on your (inaudible) .

Purely at the moment it is just on the stud. I just need that little bit extra room. I know we would love to have probably some Black Baldy cross Limos poking around, but I just need that space where the 2- year- old heifers that are about to calve are in a paddock, the yearling heifers and then the yearling bulls and the 2- year- old bulls. So I need just that little bit of room to shuffle everything.

Yeah. Running cows plus followers I think sometimes gets people caught out.

Absolutely.

You think, oh, I've got plenty of feed, or, I've got plenty of room, and then all of a sudden you've got a hundred new calves coming on and things just double.

Yep. And then paddocks are getting plowed ready for the oats and it's like, where's that magic pencil for a new paddock?

Yeah, good. We might just talk a little bit about your pastures and cropping. So yeah, what is your typical program for your forage crops?

Generally, we start working up the paddocks with the summer rain. Because the cattle have been in on those paddocks during the wet, we try and move them out as much as possible so they don't bog it up too much. But mother nature can throw curveballs. Five mils predicted and you get 25 mils and the cows are still on that paddock. So yeah, we'll work it up, sort of speed tiller and then Kelly- chain it just to try

How's that shaping up this season?

Yeah, good. We've got majority of the paddocks worked up. I'm waiting for a little bit more rain to chop up the last three paddocks. And certainly having two teenage school kids that are very capable helps.

Yeah, I bet. Some good tractor drivers there.

And especially when they can maybe have a day off school here and there, it's helpful.

And yeah, generally, what's your rotation? Do you do that for a few years and then go into something else?

Yep. We have got probably a couple of paddocks that are less rocky where we sort of just earmark those purely for hay because they're obviously close to the hay shed and rock free for the hay making. But yeah, generally we'll do a rotation. So we've sort of worked out at the moment what paddocks are a little bit exhausted and want to put those pastures in where they

So you'll typically cut for hay all of your oat crops?

No. Generally, we'll earmark probably 200 acres, but that then also depends on mother nature and how much rain we've had. And the rest will just be grazing crops. We'll try and rotate the grazing.

So you'll just graze them out?

Yes.

Spray them out in spring or something and sort of clean them up and tidy up any weeds.

Yep. Absolutely.

Yeah. So that probably does a really good job in terms of your paddock preparation and driving the weeds out of a paddock for your pastures.

Yes. Well, we have been a little bit guilty in the previous years, and my agronomist... And you're probably going to go, oh my gosh, what were they thinking? But ryegrass is a great cattle feed. And it's free, it just grows. So we have been guilty of the past on letting that ryegrass set seed, and obviously, now where we're trying to plant pasture, we have had a little bit of

And what's been the persistence of the Phalaris in the paddock after that?

It wasn't too bad, actually. We did notice the lucerne recovered pretty good after that too. But yeah, obviously keeping on top of those weeds, even though they're probably good feed at the time, is pretty crucial.

Yeah. There's compromises to be made in farming everywhere.

Absolutely.

Everyone knows that. But yeah, it does make it tricky when ryegrass is just such a bloody good little feed, isn't it?

It is. It is. Yeah. Everything does well on it.

I've seen feed tests on it and it's remarkable. It'll blow your socks off.

Yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure.

So how have you seen the persistence of your Phalaris and other in your pastures?

Yeah, no, really good. The lucerne has gone exceptionally well. Over this summer, especially with all that summer rain, we've able to keep the bulls grazing on their paddocks. And Harry has done a little trade on some lambs and he's made some money, so he's pretty excited about that. But yeah, it is been really good. The lucerne's done really well.

Yeah. So Harry's your youngest son?

Harry's my middle. So he's 18 this year.

That's always good if your first foray into the market is a success.

Yes. Yes. Well, his first one might not have been and he lost some money on his lambs, so this one is, yeah, he's excited that he's made a little bit.

Oh, that's optimistic.

It is.

That's probably a good spot to finish it. But before I let you go, Sherrie, what do you see as the big issue in Australian ag at the moment?

I suppose there's talk of a tax coming in for older, and I don't know the correct wording, older diesel vehicles, and I feel that's going to hurt a lot of farmers. Because I know, for one, I drive an older ute around, and if I've got to pay a higher registration for that because it's an older vehicle, I think that's going to hurt a lot of farmers that have that old ute that they just poke around in.

Yeah. Government policy is often what a lot of people say on this as an issue that's going to directly affect them. I probably can't get too political here.

No.

But no, that's a good one. It's just quite often farmers like to say, " Just stay out of our way and we'll keep doing things and we'll be productive and work hard."

Absolutely. If we can do our jobs, we'll keep making the food.

That's a good one. No worries. Sherrie, thanks for your time today. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

No worries. Thank you.

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