Approche Production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am Neil the muscle coumments. You've probably heard about the last King of the Cross, John Abraham. Mister Ibrahim, You've been described as the King of the Cross. Behind every king stands a loyal soldier. Their job is to make sure that that king stays on the throne. I am that soldier, and in this episode I speak with Uk Hardman.
Paul Stands started punching the windows on the door in He didn't know what was going and I'm trying to handle. He started driving off and I hope he watches this year. I really hope he watches this. He opened the door for me and he turned round, took one look at me and let go of the door. And it smacked me.
Yeah.
Hey, if I'm tenure, it is stupid, stupid, Yeah, because I've put so many people in danger that but I managed to escape from the mental institution. Took me a while, but I've figured it out and I've got out of it. She come down. My mom looked me in the eyes and she said, kill them.
Let's get to know you as as a person first, before we get into nitty grizzy.
So I was born in London. I grew up there for a fair bit of my childhood, restrained family. Mom and dad didn't really get on. My dad was a bit handsy. I used to whip my mom up a lot, and that was Yeah. I never really witnessed it, but I heard it, do you know what I mean? And sometimes I think that's worse than actually seeing it. Yeah, I seen your imagination. Yes, the imagination, isn't it. Yeah, And then all you see is you see the after effects,
you know, the cut lip, the black eye. I feel like that plays more trauma than actually seeing it.
Yeah. I remember when my mother and father used to fight and I used to try and get in the middle. And I remember one day we were in ten Reef and he I was in the way and I told him stop it. My mom stopping my mom. And then he threw me against the wall and that was just that was that was a massive changer for me, you know what I mean, because I was only young then and I had to throw me against the wall and
then he launched up my mother. It was it was pretty That was the only time I've ever seen them fight, you know what I mean.
Did that change your view and your old man.
But this way it didn't because me and him became he was he was my best mate, you know what I mean. But I used to get told different things off different but like my mother would say bad things about my dad, and my dad would say bad things about my mom, so I could never get the full story. So but then I always because my mom used to take the piss all the time out of my dad. I stuck up for my dad because he never he
never used to say a bad word. I've always think my dad's getting done by you while you picking on my dad all the time. So that's that was always staying with my dad. But now I've grown up and now I remember things. It's funny how when you grow up you remember and remember remember things. Now I go, shit, you know what I mean? You fucking used to do that, your little fuck you know what I mean?
I mean thinking mature mind though, that isn't it.
Yeah?
You know, when you as you get older, you start to think like an adult or not a child. Yeah, so you start seeing how more messed up it was that your parents actually said them things to you as a child, because it really it shouldn't be said, it should have been kept between them, you know. And I think again that plays a massive part in trauma that you end up reliving as you get older. But it does make you a better parent as well. It make me a better parent, yeah, you know, so learning from that.
It come with its trauma, but I'll become a better parent because of it, because I didn't want to be like that.
Yeah, but how do the affect the household? Though?
Massively? Because my my my dad didn't really get on with my brother, so that was like always aguments between them two, and my mom used to waste it up for my brother, so my mum used to get it from my dad. Yeah, you know, and we was young, so whilst they're all having their arguments, we was pushed off into a room listening to it. And then afterwards
my dad would leave. I can't I can't tell you it's whether mum kicked him out or whether he just left, but he'd leave, and then of course my mum would have all these marks on her clothes, would be stretched out and you're trying to be like, what's going on here, but at the same time and you were kamm like trying to help her out. Do you know what I mean?
But the next day and or the day after, did it always go back to like nothing ever happened? It was, of course, of.
Course, because you know, it's loving it. Look, it's the strangest love that you could have, because they'd hit each other and hate each other, and then they'll come back and say sorry, it never happened again. You're like, okay, and then it's back to normal again. You're not sure whether you're coming and going. Yeah, and then it went. It got a bit too much one time, and I remember my mom got beat up pretty bad, and in my dad went to work, and then when he went
to work, we packed up and left. So the police were there. I just remember the police being there, some people that was in normal clothes, and we ended up getting took to protective housing, which is where I spent a lot of my childhood, growing up in things called women's refuges, you know what I mean, Because yeah, so I grew up in women's refuges, so I spent most of my time surrounded by women, you know, So I
never really had a masculine person there. And my brother was older, so he was staying around his friend's houses rather than being in these women's refugees with us. So you know I was the only boy in a women's refuge with three hundred and eighty seven women.
Fuck me.
Yeah, so I was brought up by so many women.
What about school? What about schooling?
Though?
Score was rough man because because every time my dad found us, we had to move. So I've literally been to over one hundred schools. One time I was in school, I went into school, I was there a day, and then I had to go and then join up to another school, and I was in that school for two weeks and then my dad found us again.
How old were you doing?
It wasn't so it started probably I was about four or five when it started. So from four or five right up until I got expelled in high school, I was in and out of school. Not because I was a nuisance, just because I was a nuisance when I was at high school. Is when I was younger, I was in and out of schools because we were being moved around.
Did you ever get pissed off with your dad for doing that?
Yeah?
Did you know?
I was so listen, I was so young, yeah, with understanding that emotion that I just wondered where my dad went because one minute he was there, next minute he was gone. And like your mom did to you. My mom used to say, your dad's a bad man, and throughout our life he was a horrible person. But as I was getting older, I felt like I was missing what everybody else had, a dad, a father and man figure. My brother was here and there, do you know what
I mean. It wasn't until I started getting older that he started paying attention to me as a young man, where he started teaching me how to cook and shave, not a mad but shave and dress and stuff. You know. It wasn't until I started getting older in my teens where he become a father figure to me.
Yea.
But I always wanted to know about my dad. As much as I heard it and as much as my mum was telling me all this stuff, I was still curious. I wanted to know about who my dad was and why he did it.
Did you ask him?
Yeah? I found him. I went and found him. The first time I went there, I went to his house at nighttime. I drove up to London. I was a visiting family, and I went around his house and I went up to the door and then I walked away from the door because I didn't I didn't know if he was going to be happy that I turned up or whether I was going to have the same respect
is what my mom did. So I went back to the car and I read a letter saying, two Paul stands because his name's the same as mine, two Paul stands. But I didn't even put dad. I was really I was. Emotion wise, I was. I was so up that when I got there, I dropped. I plummeted hard because I wanted to see this guy and I wanted to I had this imagination of what he would be like as a father to me. It was nothing like I thought.
It was nothing like I thought. You know, it's all smokes and mirrors with him, unfortunately, but I wrote this letter. I basically said, you've not been a dad to me, and I really went at him. I posted the letter, but I thought it was his house and it was an next door neighbor's house. Fuck yeah, And do you know what it is? I didn't know, and I didn't
mean that in any way. Yeah. But later on, like a few years later, I had come back and I had the bulls to go and to go and knock on the door, because I really I was curious, and it wasn't then until he told me that I posted
letter next door. And after posting a letter next door, he told me how humiliating that was, which I thought was a bit of a bad move for him to say how embarrassed he was that the letter went next door because I had to live it for years and he only had a letter drop on a doorstep, do you know what I mean? There was no apology for him making me have to make new friends at school
over one hundred times, you know what I mean. There was no I had to share a bathroom with like loads of other people and we all ate together with it. There was no what about my embarrassment, you know what I mean? So for me straight away, I was like a little bit disrespectful, but I didn't say nothing because I really wanted to know. I wanted to know him. I wanted to see if we was alike. I wanted to know if I was going to end up being
like him. I wanted to know where because I'm so different from the rest of my family that all of my brothers and my sisters are like my mom's side of the family, and I was very different. So I wanted to know where I come from, why I'm the way I am, Why am I so different from them?
You know?
So I had a lot of curious going on in my head where I needed to find out where I come from genetically, to find out if I'm going to be as messed up as everybody else.
You know, were you disappointed when you when you kind of like got to know him, like when you confronted them?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I was for many reasons because do you know when they say you should ever meet your idol? Yeah, because it's a disappointment. You're never. It's never how you imagine it's going to be. That was a bit like that with me and my father. So my dad he's got a house and he's he's quite successful in the job that he does in that lot, but did he
really matter? Yeah he did. Yeah. He he got with another woman not long after my mum and had some more children, and they are so different from from us, so different.
Do you think it's do you think it's it was made you the you are today?
Though, very much so. A lot has made me the person I am today, but the parent I am today, very much so.
Because you want to be different to how you were treated when you were a kid.
You never wear yeah exactly. I mean, you know, some people give harsh lessons to bring to teach you to be a man, and I don't think you need that, do you know what I mean? I just think you just need, you know, nourishment and just guidance rather than you need to be like this way, you know, because it's almost a sense of still, I don't know, like alpha power when you have when you're not really an alpha, do you know what I mean?
But did did this make you rebel?
Yes? But it wasn't my dad that made me rebel. My mum met another geezer and he was absolutely a horrible, horrible guy. But my mom got with him because he was a big guy, and I think she got with him to keep my dad away from her. Okay, but she just traded what she had with another guy with more power. Do you do you understand?
Yeah?
Yeah, So her protecting herself from him put her directly in danger again. And this guy hated me. He hated me because I am the carbon copy spitting image of my old man.
So what was that like?
And he hated it?
In what way did he did he do anything to make you like feel like not wanted?
Yeah? Made everything like I was grounded all the time for nothing. He used to come and like mentally mess with my head. He loved WWF and I was his playbuddy, do you know what I mean? Like he'd twist me up like mad met It was like six foot six foot three, six foot four, and he'd twist me up, mate, really hurts, you know, like as a kid, put my legs over my head, like do everything he could so get me to cry.
What did your mom do?
My mom was like, you need a harden up son, do you know what I mean? And do this because she never saw she she got brought up fairly rough as well, so this was like normal. But she just see it as like stop being so rough with him, and then they'd argue. So it was kind of like so he'd end up doing this when she'd be out working or she'd go to the shop. This is when he stopped so she's not around. And then there was times, mate,
I thought I was wetting the beds for years. I thought I was coming up into coming up in the high school wetting the beds. You know, it wasn't this geezer was coming in at nighttime, pouring water over us and then like having a go, say you're grounded because he had no friends so he and he loved football, so he used to pour water over us. Tell my mom, I'd wet the bed. And then my grounding was to go and play football. I wouldn't be allowed out of my room. The only time I was allowed out of
my room was to go and play football. This guy fuck me.
Yeah that's been twisted.
Yeah it really is. So it was all for him, it was all mine. He never slapped me, He never enforced himself like like ah, it was all mind games and it was all hard gripping and twisting up. That was what he was doing to me.
Are they still together?
Nah?
Nah? But that's when I started rebelling.
So what did you do to rebel?
Like? What was that?
Like?
Just go out and rebel? Or like what was it?
So after he left, I had my first fight at school, and then I got a taste for it and realized that I wasn't what he would make me believe I was like because he made me feel like I was weak. He made me feel like I was nothing like I had no power like he made me feel like a child, even when I was growing into a teenager. He made me feel like I was this week feeble individual that couldn't say boo to a ghost. I was just like, oh,
you're you know you're pussy. You need to say all this stuff to get into my head so I wouldn't react back to him, so I'd just be accepting all of this. But after he left and I had my first fight, I thought to myself, and this boy I had a fight with him. He was bigger than me, and I've done him. But I was shocked that I'd done him because I didn't think I had that in me.
But when I sat there and I thought about it, there was no one that was of my age or a little bit older that was going to be able to test me. Because I've been taking it for years from a six foot four geezer who was like crazy strong and twisted me up to a point where I was able not to cry even when I was in pain. Yeah, because I couldn't show him. I couldn't. I couldn't give him that because even though he's took my strength power from me, I couldn't let him take my my inner power,
do you know what I mean? Because if I did do that, there's there's there's that's hard to come back from that, ain't it?
Y I did. I didn't. I didn't rebell go by fighting, by rebelled by going around stealing cars. And that was my way because I never used to hang around with anybody to who did that. But then because I was having trouble at home, and I you know, I just went fucking I started hanging around with guys and you
wouldn't tell them. You just say, I'm playing football at the park, but I'm going to rob cars and going in golf courses and fucking, you know, doing handbrake turns in fucking in the cars, you know what I mean, going over the fucking sandhills and the bunkers, you know what I mean. But then I'd go home like I'm carrying my ball like I was, you know, I just had a game of football in the park, you know what I mean.
Yeah, I I've been them myself. I mean not the golf courses, but myself with the stealing cars and myself, I've done I did nick a lot, but I've never done how It was just and just shot, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I got involved with all that lot as well, but that wasn't until after So what what age group did you start? I was about twelve?
Oh fuck that early?
Yeah?
And what did you do for rebell Was it mostly just fighting in school or what?
Yeah? It was kind of laying my laying my footwork down for rebelling against anyone authority. Basically, anyone that was telling me to do something I'd refuse that would end
up followed by violence. Anyone that was standing in my way, anyone that was to try and take away my strength was a problem, whether it was just them shouting or whether it was then being physical or them laying their dominance down, were telling me what to do, even though I should have listened because there were adults and I was a child, you know, but I just won't haveing none of it. Wow.
Didn't get expelled?
Yeah? I got expelled a lot. Yeah, I got expelled. It got to a point where none of those schools would take me, and I ended up at a naughty boys' school and that was I was only they used to come and get me in a taxi because I wouldn't get on any transport or nothing. They'd picked me up
in a taxi. They drive me to the school. I was there for no longer than three hours because my mind would only allow me to concentrate for three hours before I started getting like aggravated, and then I'd end up fighting, and then the taxi would take me home again. And I'd only have to do that three times a week. So my school, I'd only have to go to school
three times a week for three hours each day. Shit. Yeah, so yeah, and you know, the school was good, But it was good because the teachers understood you rather than they didn't tell you. They understood you, and they talked to you like a person rather than so the teachers, I couldn't fault them, but it was you're in a school of naughty kids, and each of them was bad in their school. So when they get to a school where each kid has been kicked out for the same thing,
you're laying dominance down in this school. And there was there's a guy, he me and this one other guy. We was we'd never be nothing out of life. It would be we'd never have children, we never have wives. We just go to jowl and all this like yeah, and me and him have been the most successful ones that left at school. He's called David Steel and he actually is my window cleaner. Now he's got a window he really he's really successful and he does all my
windows and another. But when he was at school, he was going he wanted to go off to the Navy, and he went off to the Navy. He got kicked out of there. But yeah, he cleans my windows now in the town shop.
That's funny. That's funny. So when you get to about your late teens, what are you up to? What are you doing? Like seventeen? Everything?
Everything, I mean, I say everything. I'm not doing drugs. I'm not. I don't. I'm not smoking. I'm not. I wasn't like that wayward you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but stolen gear, stealing cars, selling cars to stripping the cars out, motorbikes and fight that was me, mate.
What was your mother thinking at this time?
Me and my brother we was allowed to be that way because it was like the whole Peggy Mitchell and Phil Grant thing, like my boys, you know what I mean. So we was like if we had a fight and we went back, I said, MoMA just had a fight. She'd be like, did you win? And it'd be like yeah, She's like, good boy, go and get you know, carry on basically, do you know what I mean? But it
was always did you win? And if we'd have said no, it'd be like right, getting a car and then we'd go round the house and then my mom would be like your boys you know, or whatever wherever the situation of being wow. But my mom was quite quite hands on herself, like she not with us, not with the boys, but she was hands on. She she got stuck in if her dad turned up that she she she was quite a fierce woman. She's a very short woman. But
you wouldn't mess with it. Honestly. Yeah, yeah, she's pretty fierce. But because my mom had had these jokers as husbands, it was mine and my brother's job. As we got older and we was more fighting, she almost prepped us in case they come back, do you know what I mean? So we was prepped to and but listen, my mum done good. Yeah, my mom brought me up. Well, I have no problems with how my mum and what my mum done for me. She fed us when she never
had nothing, she went without, so wee could have not toys, food, clothes. Yeah. So my mum was a very good woman. When it comes to the hugs and stuff, not so much. We didn't have all that emotional hugs and the kisses we had. I love you boys, I love you too, and it's kind of like that, but there was no like hugs and stuff. Me. I'm a hugger. I love a hug, you know what I mean. So if you want to give me a hug, I'm going to give you a hug, and I probably won't let go first, you know.
But it's but how have you got like that if your mother wasn't like that.
Yeah, my brother wasn't like it either. My brother wasn't like it, And that's why I wanted to know. Like, my family are not very huggab with people, you know what I mean. They're like, you're right dead arm, you know, it's like you're good, like you go kiss me. You kissed me on top of the edge, don't kiss me on the cheek. It's weird, you know, you know, Like
it's like that. Yeah. So and when they come in they touch you on the shoulder and they're like brush off your shoulder, like, oh, get off, what are you doing that for that's weird, like stop it, but but like my friend, don't get my hug, and I won't to let go. You know, it's strange. It's strange. I don't know. That's why I wanted to know why I was emotionally attached with myself enough to be able to have a scrap one second and then give you a hug the next. Do you know what I mean? I
didn't understand what was going on. I wasn't I wasn't taught the difference between between being a lunatic and being a lover. I wasn't taught the difference, so it was just merged into one like I'll smack you and feel bad for it. M I didn't want to do it, but I just did it, you know, And it's I'm not proud of who I was or what I've done,
and I've apologize as I've got older. And of course the trauma has been on the other side of us now because of what happened with my brother, which we get to, but feeling what has been done to me made me go in myself and realize how much I was doing that was so negative that I was making other people feel how I feel, and that changed me massively.
When did you When did you think it got out of hand?
Straight straight away? As soon as he left. Soon as he left, I had to I literally had to be a different person. And I'd done whatever it took to be the person that I know that if he ever come back, it's game time.
Oh so you were prepared to do it.
I was prepared to take him out, like sure, one hundred percent, yeah, because of what he'd done for me, you know. And and I went to the gym, I got tattoos, I I was fighting. I was. I was full on, like if you was, if you was, I turned myself into this horrible person where if we was walking down the road and he was looking and I know, you're going to get people on here going Yeah, if I saw him in the street, it beyond and I'd make it my bitch and all that. Yeah, good good,
nice one, nice one, and they're great. But at that time I was I was relentless, mate, I was relentless, and I got involved with everything as long as it was violence, and it allowed me to be feared. I was there and it was all for one reason and one reason only. It was preparing myself for when that giant come back.
Did you ever see him again?
Do you know what I did I did?
Did you give him? Did you give a space?
This?
This?
This will shock you, actually, yeah, this will shock you because I was younger when I saw him. Yeah, so I was. I was about sixteen seventeen when I saw him, So I wasn't even a man and I was still a child. And I always said to myself, when I see him, I'm gonna do this. He's like, I got it in my head a million times over. I was
going to do them. And he come down the road where we lived, and I was standing in the front garden and Carl went past me and I saw him and he looked at me and I was like, that's him. And then he drove past again and didn't look, just drove past, and I was I was standing there and I just went cold. I went cold, and I had it like it's at him. What I need to be able to be prepared for him because he's gonna, he's gonna.
It's going to be on. Yeah. And he wound down the window and he goes, you're right, Paul, because he drove back and he goes, you right, Paul, and I was looking at him and I was like, that was him, brother. I froze. Never ever in my life have I ever froze on anything, and not have I ever since then? Yeah, but I went back to being a child again.
Yeah, that had.
Been twisted up by this Greenes Like I literally froze and I didn't know what to do. Yeah, And this was a shock to me because if he would have come two years later, there wouldn't have been no freezing. I would have because I was I was started like coming in to myself where when things were put on me, I was able to deal with it. But that was kind of like the first time that was just put on me and I just reverted back to the child again and never ever will that ever happen to me again.
So after after all that, and you're in your twenties, what are you up to? Then you're still being violent? Well, tell me about tell me about a day being.
Violent, a day of being violent. It depends whether it depends whether I've got a job on.
Like when when I tell me to tell me a day when you got pissed off and you just got when I go out on the fucking rampage, tell me what a day would be in the like.
From from the minute I'll wake up, I'm I'm feeling it. Do you know what I mean. I'm schizophrenic anyway, but I'm ID schizophrenic. Yeah, so like i was diagnosed a little bit on from there. So I'm in my twenties, I'm diagnosed now that I'm ID schizophrenic. I've been in and out of mental institutions where they deemed me unsafe to the public. Yeah. So if I'm having a bad day, every everything, everything is on, it doesn't matter. Like if you if I was walking down the road and this
is the me that I'm ashamed of. Yeah, now where before I thrived off of it. Yeah, but I would go out and if anyone who money. If my brother was a dealer at the time, and I'd be the one going to collect the debts for him, and he had friends that done that, so I'd be I'd be collecting money, you know what I'm talking about, And I'd go and collect money. So I'll turn up in the middle of the night when you're asleep, into your kingdom where it's like you feel the most safe, and I'd
dominate you where you are. You know, and I'd get what I need to get from you, and that that would be it. So if I was having a bad day, the people that I worked for would love it because they'd be giving me all of this, like you need to go and pick this up, you need to pick this up because they know that the job's getting done. So it is house collecting money, picking up any any fight in between, like walking down the road. What you're looking at this? This is what I'm saying. Like I've
said this a million times. Yeah, on all the other podcasts that I've been on, and the amount of people that go and they're going, yeah, i'd make you my bitch, I'll do you and all that. Try it true, try it, you know what I mean. Don't tru try it, you know. And it's always private accounts with like no pictures, and you know, it makes me die because yeah, you know, real, recognize real, and I know that you ain't real, but I was. I was never I never bullied, do you
know what I mean? Like, I never bullied. Like the people that I did go after were people that ooh money. It's that world. Do you know the world I'm talking about. It's the world. So I wasn't out there just smacking up someone that walked down the street, that was walking a dog or nothing unless they started something.
You know, were you worse on alcohol or did you know you've never doat you don't drink.
Yeah, I don't drink. I don't drink. Alcohol didn't really change me at all. I was just it was it was the things that changed me is the people I'm surrounded by. So if if they're negative and they're game, i am gain. But if they're calm and they're collective, I'm chilled. So it's whatever. But the problem is with because I was that way, no one wanted to be chilled around me. Everybody that was surrounding myself with was in the same sort of trade, if you can call it that.
Did you ever get arrested for this?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah I've been. I've been arrested multiple times. I was. I was up in I was the first first person to be up in the new Crown Court here in Ipswich when I was a kid for attempted murder and it was I got found not guilty. So yeah, not guilty. It wasn't me. It wasn't you wouldn't me.
But I was the youngest person here in Ipswich. For that, I was the first person, the first person in the youngest person that we tried for attempted murder in the Crown court here in Ipswich when I was fifteen.
Well, are the coppers the coppers give you grief over the way you were or Yeah?
So it was them that got me put in a mental institution. They're the ones that had me put away in this in the institution. They wouldn't the times when I was growing up, they were allowed to take you off the street and take you immediately to mental institutions and say do not let them out until we say yeah. And you were staying in there. You know they won't let you out because the police have brought you there, so they can leave you as long as you want.
And I was left there, brother, I was left there. They forgot about me. Yeah, and I didn't realize that that I was. I could I could leave if I wanted to, but it was locked doors. They have to let me out, do you know what I mean? And they got got told I was allowed there. But I managed to escape from the mental institution. I escaped. It took me a while, but I've figured it out and I got out of it. So I went like, I went off to I said, I wasn't feeling too good.
They took me off to the nurses section of where it was, and there was a door there that wasn't It was always open and shut and open and shutting, so it wasn't a locked door. And as soon as that door, as soon as I realized that and I was there, the dock turned around or the nurse turned around. As I turn around, I was in a gown, open back gown. I was out, I've done the door. I've
come running through the door. I'm running across the green like I'm thinking, I'm a thundercat, straight hands, thumbs tucked for proper, I'm duck down, I'm running my I feel like a superhero because and I'm like, I guess, yeah, they listen. If I wasn't a lunatic, I definitely looked like one running across the ground. I stole this bike with a basket on there with a bell and I was like bringing, bring, bing, bring, and I was like like this, my arse was all hanging out at the back,
and yeah, I must have looked like the right pictures. Yeah, I was full speed. I've never ridden the bike so fast as my life. Mate, I got I got back home to my mum's house. I jumped in a car and I was gone. Mate. I went up to I went up and lived up a Newcastle. Well, I went to Manchester. Yeah, I went to Manchester to go and hide out at my friend's house and then I ended up meeting a girl. I ended up in Sunderlands. We lived in Newcastle and she was a nutter more worse than what I was.
All fucking knots. Once you go past.
Utters, tell me about it. But like in between, in between all that, I was wanted for a you know, lucky like I say to you, I like, I'm anti it now, but I was. I was. I was wanted for a knife attack, which I fight against now with my charity. But I was. I tried to stab someone they called the old Bill and me I was wanted for that. They found me in I went on a missing person so danger person's think where they were going to go on TV and say have you seen this guy?
But I was in a petrol station in York with with with this girl and a guy held the door open and as he turned round he sees and I hope he watches this year. I really hope he watches this. He opened the door for me, and he turned around, took one look at me, and let go of the door. And it smacked me. Yeah, because I don't know he didn't like, well I looked or whatever, but he wasn't holding the door open for me, but he was holding it and then he released it after he looked at me,
and it smacked me. Yeah, and I said, I said, wait for me outside. I played for the petrol. Yeah. I was in this car, so I was. I was a lump then I was I was absolutely massive. I was a unit and I was in this tiny little Pergo two six quite in his car. But this guy outside, he gets in his car. He had an alpha a male, a purple out for a male. And he gets in his car and as I've gone walking towards him, he goes like this, locks his car and smiles, yeah, like
he's safe in his car, like cocky. I started smashing. I started punching the windows. I kicked the door in. He didn't know what was going and I'm trying to handle He started driving off. Yeah, and I'm hanging onto the car yeah, he's driving off. He's literally not waiting for no traffic. Mate. I'm telling here it is stupid, stupid. Yeah, because I've put so many people in danger that day
because he just drove out in the traffic. I fell off the car and as I'm screaming at this guy, I turned around and when I turned around, there a cop There's a cop car sitting there, and the cops were standing there and they went, what's going on? I went, I've turned around and been like to get in the cars chase him. And as I've turned around, the cops are standing. They go, what's going on? I was like, uh, and I wanted and I'm stating there like nothing. They go,
we just see you keep that car. I said, no, you didn't, So you did? I said no. I said he closed his door when I was leaning on it, and he had my jacket in his car and he took me with him. They were like really, I went yeah, and then he didn't know that I was attached to his car. I don't think, but he's drive off now and they took it. They took it. They went into the petrol station and they said, is that guy? Do you know this? Guys I said again. I was in
the petrol station. I was fine, yeah, and they went in they said no, it's fine. And so now I'm thinking I'm getting nicked. I'm getting took from York back to Ipswich, right, so I'm kicking off now to this coppers because it's authority and I'm like, mate, what's your problem? Let's just what's that? Go calm down? What can we do? Calm me down? So let me go. He said what's your name? And I went Paul Read. He went, yeah, Paul Read. It's because the Read was my stepdad's name, the durable guy.
Yeah.
So whilst he's talking to me, he's doing a check on Paul Rid. Yeah, and there's like nothing. Yeah, there's like nothing for me. So they go all mate, off you go. I was like yeah, it was like yeah. I was like no, mate, had a good day. And they've gone YouTube like no more of that, and I was like, I don't know what we're talking about getting a car? And I got off what that was? Me done? What I was getting what I was getting took back?
Do you do you I get a persona of coppers in England that I want to sound like in a bad way. But are they all fucking dumb?
Yeah, like they're all dumb or they've got that small person mentality where they were bullied, so they feel like they have to lay that authority down and everybody to be a you know.
Because over here there's probably any everywhere over the world. Everyone laughs at the fucking English coppers because they don't carry a fucking gun. They carry they still carry their fucking stupid hats on their fucking head. They've still all they have is the fucking battern and they just get given it every fucking day by people, you know what I mean? And I don't know.
It's like, as as irritated as the police are here, we're pretty gifted because, like you say, they haven't got guns, they haven't got they haven't got anything. I'm telling you man, I've come across some street of coppers in my time where I've been banned the rights and they just let me go because I've been too aggressive for him. Do you know what I mean? They can't manage it. But my face went out on the the police data base and I want to miss it once a person, Yeah,
I come up as a missing person. So because I come up as a missing person and an urgent person to get off the street because I'd run away from a mental institution. I was schizphrenic, right.
Well, you put up as dangers, yeah.
So I was a danger to the public. That's what it was. It was danger to the public. Do not approach, just call the police, which again I'm not proud of now. But then it was awesome because I was like, it was the mentality that I wanted everyone to see me to be because I thought that I had respect from everybody, and it wasn't that. There's no respect on the street. There's nothing. It's lonely. You're lonely. As much as you feel like you're a part of something big, you ain't.
You're nothing. You're just a person that is willing to do We're a little bit more than the next person. And people will love you for that, and they'll use you for that, and then they'll throw you away nobody nothing. You are nothing at all, and they put me out on the APB. I'll come up as like this person, they found me, So I didn't go on the forty eight hour missing TVF. We're looking for this person, please find them. So now they found me in York. I've
had to leave York. I've gone back to Manchester. I'm living in Manchester on Moss Side, which was wild Wild moss Side is a is a is a place, mate, So I'm over there.
I actually, I actually when I was when I got got my driver's license and I was seventeen years old, my fucking mate dared me to drive to Manchester and go through my side. And I remember fucking fucking night we got up there, and I swear I just didn't think I was gonna like It's like, I don't know, if you've ever been to Liverpool and there's a there's a place exactly like it called Granby Street, and the
fucking it's the same thing. And he dared me to do the same thing there, and I fucking stored my car, you know what I mean. It's just like, what the fuck? So I know what you're fucking talking about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just madness. But you know who you were with everyone there? Do you know what I mean? You know where you are with everyone. There is no there's no hidden agendas. Everyone is on the same thing, which is real dangerous because you've always got people at hand to do jobs so you just you're never not out of trouble. You're always in trouble because if you don't stick up for the person in the street, you ain't help them in the street, you know what I mean? So, but did you.
Did you follow suit?
Though?
But by being it, by being in that area, did you, like do you think you know, like with everyone else what they were doing, did you follow suit with them?
Mate? I didn't listen. I didn't. I didn't fall in line with nobody. I didn't fall in line with nobody. I I wanted it. I was hungry for it. I was bred to be that person. So I was always game. It wasn't like do you want to come? It was like I'm in you know. I was always I was
the game person that was ready to go. And that's where I made the biggest mistake, because I felt like doing more, doing the things that led me to be not so much feared but to be unpredictable, led me to believe that I had love where it wasn't because I was looking for something that I never had as a child, and that was.
You felt wanted by everybody else because of the fact that they wanted you for who what you were like what you could do for them, and so you felt wanted because you didn't get that from your mom or your father, you know what I mean.
So it was crazier I was the more people wanted me around, you know what I mean? And I thought that I was truly I felt like I belonged somewhere where I wasn't actually supposed that I wasn't. I didn't belong there, you know, because the love from the street was the greatest thing ever. When I had nothing, I didn't even have my soul. I never had anything. I surrendered to everybody around me, and I was willing to die.
I was willing to go to jail. I was willing to give up everything on who I was to be a part of this society, do you know what I mean? This family, this unit of just security because ain't no one touching us when we're together in a group, you know. And again it's not it wasn't gang mentality. It was family and nowhere.
But where's your where's your where's your proper family? When this is going on? Though? When you when you're in Manchester with.
Are they they're doing their own thing. My brothers, my brother was off doing he's thing because he got into drugs pretty heavy and he was off doing his thing. And my sisters and my mum they're like super close, so it's like them, and then it's like me and
my brother are the the other. We'd get contacted if something was going wrong or they needed some cash or something would get I'd get the call for the cash, and my brother, my brother and me would get the call if if they is something someone had said something to the family, wo'd come back and we'd deal with it and then go back and carry on with what we were doing.
You know, what's the worst thing you've done?
Well, I haven't really done a lot by law of conviction, but like the alleged crimes, what I've been alleged to have done, you know is allegedly you got.
We'll go with allegedly, Yeah, allegedly.
Allegedly there was you know, guns and the attempted murder thing and which I found not guilty on. And what was it like?
What was your stock now like that.
We should have had this conversation?
What what what was it like? Alleged you you've had weapons, right, You've you've seen weapons before. What was it like being that age? To actually see.
It powerful power. I've only need I only seen this stuff in on TV. And as like, when I was growing up, I was so naive to the world because I didn't think anything happened outside the house because I was never allowed out of the house. So when I started seeing this, you're progressing so fast in the criminal
underworld that you become somebody, but really your nobody. Like there's so there's there's so many levels of criminal and in them levels you can be in that same So me and you could be in the same level of criminal, but your version of that criminal could be like your nuts or you'll use a weapon, you'll shoot someone where I would kill someone with my hands. You know. It was kind of like that. So you can progress in a group so much because you don't need to be hard.
You don't need to be a murderer, you don't need to be a tall man, you don't need to be a think if your game you're all the same, yeah, do you know what I mean? Because if you had a specific tool you fight in or your height, your stature, your aggression, your your kindness, could talk to someone where you couldn't get money off of like you would all be that same value. You're just used a different way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And brother, I was used. I was used just as
much as you were used. And it hurts because but.
What would it what? In what way? Do you feel used?
Though?
Like you did you feel used in the way that they've used your foot for your ability and for your for your what you can do for them? Or do you feel used because do you feel like it was a waste of years?
One hundred percent. But at the same time, I can say that it's a I can say it's a waste of years, but it's curved me to be who I am today. And I'm a great man today, do you know what I mean? Like I'm a great I do a lot today that that showed that that gives real respect and strength to my community rather than take it away. So it has curved me to be a better person. And you know, without that, I probably wouldn't be who I am today. So I can thank that as well
as I can still regret it. Do you know what I mean?
You get but you get real Do you get respect off the coppers now? For how how you are? They totally different towards now?
Yeah, one hundred percent, Like don't get me wrong, there's still some of them coppers that arrested it that would see that I am not a changed person, you know, And if say, for instance, someone calls the police from me, it wouldn't just be one copper that turns up. There'll be a lot, you know, and they'll still treat you out.
I'm that person. But since since my brother, I was such After I lost my brother, I was so sure that I was going to find these people that killed him that the police knew that I was going to kill these guys and it was a race between them and me getting them first. I was such hard work for the family liaison. Through every crime you get handed a liaison officer. If you're a victim of crime, you get given a liaison officer. That's an officer that is
there for you pretty much twenty four to seven. If you need to talk, or you have any problems, or you have any think that you want to talk to the police about, the family liaisons are there for you. I was such an issue. I went through four of them and they left me. They said, I cannot deal with this guy. He's time, unpredictable. I cannot scares me. I cannot talk to this guy. And I was rejected
by them all. And I ended up coming across two liaison officers that was that come on my level and they were I see that they wanted to help and they wasn't a problem. So I accepted them. And it's Andy Moore and and oh my god, I've Miranda Miranda. I don't know her last name, but these two they were the perfect jing and yang for me at that time, and they accepted me, and I accepted them to be my liaison officers. But I went for them all. They were scared. They didn't want me, They didn't want to
talk to me, they didn't want to handle me. They didn't want to come anywhere near me. When I had them in there, they wouldn't meet me in a room because they felt like I wouldn't let them out because they're not listening to what I'm saying. I put the fear of God in them. So now after that, because I was the hardest person that they'd ever managed within the crime aspect, they've got me. I go into the police station now and I train the aison officers on
how to manage people like me. It's a big turnarounds it's a massive turnaround, and it's really rewarded for me because I still get to keep my brother's legacy alive doing things like this. And it's weird because I'm sitting in there. I'm sitting in a classroom teaching police officers how to manage it's criminals.
Let's because you've got into your brother. Now, let's let's let's talk about the brother. But let's before we talk about the situation, talk about your brother in let's let's get an insight of your brother before the situation happened.
My brother had a different dad to me. He didn't know who his dad was. My mum was very quiet on who his dad was, so that that troubled him a lot. You could see that my brother wasn't a full brother because even though he was to me, but like genetically, you can tell he wasn't. He was a little bit mixed race. And I thought that we was led to believe that my dad was his dad, and my dad accepted that that it was his son. It went until we got older that I realized that he wasn't,
and that's why my dad didn't like him. My dad used to punch him up and all sorts. Yeah again, I never saw it, but I just saw the aftermath of it. But rather really hated my dad for that, and really hated him for that and blamed him for a lot of a lot of the things. My brother ran away from home, he'd spent a fair bit of his time. I feel like my brother belonged to the street. He belonged. He belonged to the street because that was
where he felt most most at home. I believe he was homeless in London for a choice of He ran away. He met his people, and he hung with the people. They sofa surfed and they raved, and he was a rave head and he just loved life. He was so good looking, like he was a real good looking fellow, do you know what I mean? All the girls loved him. He was a proper people person. Everybody loved him. He could dance, he could, you know, he could pull any bird,
he could, you know. He was He played football, and he played football so good that he could have actually done something with it. And he was a kickboxer as well, and he was so good at kickboxing that he could have gone somewhere with that as well. But because life wasn't steady for him. He found more comfort in the street and instead of keeping that within the classroom mentality, he took it out to the street. And he was.
But me and my brother were both very very handy. Yeah, we was very handy to know, and we was handy for anything. We was game, We was gain gain.
It was he violent as you will.
This is what I was just about to say. But we were two different people when it comes to violence. My brother could really have a fight. He could really really handle himself where he but he would go to a fight so you're on the floor and then back off me. I would continue. I would go past that next level. So where he was the calm and collective's handled fighter, he was a controlled fighter. I was the
op total opposite spectrum. I was like, let's buck and let's pull them at pieces, you know, like and it was and if I come away from it, my head would be bad. And the doctors tell me it was must that made me feel like that way, because when I'd leave, I felt like I'd go over the scenarios in my head because I needed to go back and do what what I've got going on in my head. I wish I'd done more because I needed to show these people that I had to put them apart. You know.
I wanted to you know, I really wanted to teach him a lesson where my brother the lesson would be, I'd smack you, fall on the floor, I pick you back up, shake hands and go. And I admired that with him, you know, and you knew where he was. With him, I was always the unpredictable brother, and he was always the like you knew where you stood with him, you know. So he was the like the gentleman, and
he was a really loved person. And you know, anyone that he fought, he dominated, and you know, he was like the guy that was down the pub and like say, the girls loved him everything. And he had money because he was dealing. He was dealing pills and stuff at that time, you know, like the Mitsubishi turbos and all that and hash like he was, you know, cooking it in the microwave so he can cut it up, you know, like heat it up so he can cut it because it was too hard, you know. And he just always
looked smart. He had He always used to wear shirts like you know, the Ben Sherman shirts or the Roulphaer ends shirts. Yeah, the jeans and the Rebot classics. Like it was always he was always just just clean. He was just he was just a geezer, you know. He was a man around town. And then he went to
jail for driving without a license and an abh. He went at Jaw and whilst he was in Jaw he's missus left in and because I said to him when it was the first time you've done that hard drug like crack, you know, and his cellmate, he had a cell mate, and his cell mate gave it to him. He said, listen, mate, this will help you tonight. My brother was upset and he said, my brother said to me that he goes. I was quiet. I was, I was a mess and he gave me this and said
I forget it. So I just wanted to forget. And he said he'd done his first hit whilst he was in prison, and he never looked back from there. He spent the rest of his time trying to chase that first high again. And that's you know, that's that's that was his downfall. You know, to find that you get a habit, especially one as aggressive as what he had. It started in prison.
Tell me about the night that happened.
Were your brother in twenty seventeen, Were you with him now? I wish I was. I wish I was. I'd take his place any day.
So to tell me what talk me through it well, but like from what you know and what you you know what happened that line?
So I was. I was at work. A friend of mine. He always gets me on this because he says that he never said it, but I know he did. He's here now, actually, and he he had he was happing, my friend was having, my best mate was having. He was having a bad day, and he he said, he got on the bus and he gets on the bus home the route where this happen happened, and he was like, I was, I had to wait this song for the bus.
And he'd done a video where the bridge was all cornered off and the bus had to go around the long way. And he sent me this picture and he said he goes like he swore, and I said, it's probably another crackhead. And he'd gone home and he had to go the long way home, and I was like, cool, what's going on there? And I didn't think nothing of it, but at the time when it happened, I was tattoing a girl who I know in my studio, and at the time that it happened, I got a real bad
shooting paint. Yeah, and I broke out in a sweat, and I didn't think nothing of it. I thought I was having sort of like sugar drop or something. Yeah, and she's like, do you want a minute? And I'm sweating. I've come over like weed. Yeah. I didn't know what happened. It turned out at the time that i'd come over weed was the time that my brother got stabbed. It's like, I cannot explain it, and just I just felt it. I felt like I felt him get stabbed, and so
he's gone home and I finished work that day. We didn't I didn't hear nothing more about the incident. I finished work that day. It has all been cornered off. I've gone to my ex's house to pick up my daughter because it was it was it was my daughter's night, so I got there. I dropped my daughter off. At
ten o'clock. I'm in the petrol station getting some petrol to go back home, and I get a phone call from my mum and I'm in that I'm just about to pay for the petrol and my mom's screaming down the phone, noise I've never heard, and I can't get it out of my head. She's like, they've got him, they've got him. And I said got what? And I said they've got him, They've got him. And I'm like what. She's screaming, crying. I'm like, you need to calm down.
What's going on. Dean's dead? And I was like what. She went. I said, what do you mean? I said, are you sure it's him? She's like, he's dead, he's dead. I said, Mom, he's probably not, like he's not. Yeah, she goes, he years. I said, how do you know it's him? She said, the police are here, and she's screaming. She's like, she's shouting at the coppers, get out of my fucking house. Sorry, if you're not allowed to. She's like, she's like, get out of my fucking house. And so
she's shouting. I said, right, hold on, hold on, I'm coming, I'm coming, yeah, and I was. I was about to run out of the petrol station, but I knew that I had to pay. I've paid. The geezers looking at me like get off the phone. I'm like, you better fuck you know what I mean, get off the phone, like, I don't you know. So I'm going to kick off with this geezer, but my head's like, I'm I'm dizzy, mate, Like I'm all over. I just found out my brother's
been stabbed. I know what I've got to do now. Yeah, but I've got to get to my mum to just make sure that this is true. As I've left the petrol station, I've wrung my missus up. I told her I've rung I've wrung Jamie up, my mate, And I said to him, do you know that down the bus flop earlier on? I said that was Dean. Dean's dead, he's been stabbed. He's like what I was like, yeah, So, but I don't know what I'm doing. I don't I want to make these calls, but I'm making it. I
don't know what's happening. I'm making calls when I need to get and I'm driving and I'm heading down the motorways. So from where I am to where my mum is about ten minute drive, ten to fifty minute drive. And as I'm driving, I'm driving down this long road heading towards the Mertorway and I'm just screaming. I'm screaming. I've got the steering wheel, I'm gripping hold of it, like I'm trying to snap the steering wheel off whilst I'm driving.
I'm screaming from the pit of the stomach. Yeah, like just screaming. I get lightheaded and I think I'm going to pass out. Yeah, And I needed that scream to be able to just level myself out. Yeah, because You've got to remember, I'm dealing with emotions that I'm not being able to handle because I don't cry. And it's not that I don't cry, it's just that I can't
really cry, do you know what I mean? But I want to, so I scream, but I'm I'm skipped too, So I'm I'm going for through many different scenarios in my head of what I need to do, but I'm still unsure whether it's true. So I drive to my mum's. I get there, there's no police cars outside, there's nothing. So I'm like, is this my head playing games with me? It was like, is my skits playing up? Yeah? And
I'll go into the house. And as I get into the house, I can I see it, I can hear the screaming, houses being smashed to pieces, like my mom has gone to town. She's smashed up her whole house. There's two coppers standing in there, a man and a woman, and they are looking scared. They're like standing there because they're waiting for me to turn up. Well, one of the coppers that was there is a lady called Pauline.
She's a lovely woman. Her and her husband used to nick me and my brother all the time, so they already know yet that what we are. Like, yeah, and I've gone in there and they've just they've sit, but they've got fear the fit. I can see they were scared. Yeah, and I've turned up and I've gone, where's my mum? They go, she's in there, but I already know where she is because I can hear were screaming. Yeah, And
I said, is it true? And they're looking at me and they just didn't They didn't open they didn't open their mouth. They just nodded. They was like, I said, how do you know? And then he didn't want to say nothing. I think she told him don't say nothing because he would attack you. And she she said, paul I've known you and your brother for a long time. It's definitely your brother. I went, how did it happen? She went, he's been stabbed. I said, have you got who it is yet? She said not yet. I said,
I'll have them by tomorrow. And I said, Mom, I said, I'm going. She come down. My mom said, looked me in the eyes and she said, kill them. And my sisters come out and they said make sure you get them. And I knew that what I had to do. So I left the house and I went on a seven day man hunt to find these people. And as much as I was on the street and as much as I had people around me that was game and they were able, there was nothing. There was nobody. I was
on my own, I was on my ones. There was nobody for every bad man that I had around me, for every person that claimed that they were a somebody that they'd have my back no matter what. When you when you ask people to come and find four people to kill them, there is nobody made because they're not looking for someone that's in a pub that you can smack and they won't smack you back because they'll pussy or whatever. Like. These people are killers and they've killed
someone that can have it, you know. So the fear is there for a lot of people and no one coming with me. I'm on my own. I've gone looking for these people, and I was on a seventh that I didn't sleep, seven days, I didn't eat. I literally hunted these people, and one of them by the morning I found out who they were. By seven o'clock in the morning, I found out who they were, so I knew where I had to go. I went through every crack. Then I went through every I went for the drug
line that was attached to this. I went after all of this, their shotters. I went after everybody that sold crack that was around that line, the county line. I targeted everybody, and there was no one that I didn't turn over. And you know I didn't. I didn't, I didn't take I didn't. I wasn't there to rob them. I wasn't there for nothing that. I was there for information. That's all I wanted.
What was that? What was that? What was the reason why they stabbed your brother?
So in court and it was proven they said that my brother was there to rob him. Yeah, but a guy there's a guy in where my mum and lives in Felix, though that my brother used to get stuff from all time, and he'd been turned over by the police and had all these stuff took off of him, so there was nothing my brother couldn't get it from him. So my brother had to go to another line to go and get So he was a new face to a new line. And there's two rival gangs in this town.
There's J Block and Nino Yeah, and the gang J Block robbed this drug line twice and they fought. They had a heads up that they were coming back to rob him again that day. So because my brother was a new face, they thought that he was the decoy for the gang to rob him. So they come out
to teach the gang a lesson, and it wasn't. It was my brother and my brother got in a fight with the four three guys and there was one guy on the phone and three guys on foot, and the guy on the phone was telling them what to do, and my brother had a fight with the three guys and they were on the road on the path on the road like zig zagging across the road, and from what was told by witnesses, my brother was winning the fight, but he was backing off, jumping forward striking, backing off,
jumping forward, and that's how he was doing it because, like I say, my brother could actually have a rally. He was a really good fighter. He tripped on the curb and went down, and when he went down, one of the people come through the middle of him stabbed him whist he was on the floor, and then they all ran off. My brother got up, went to walk off. There was a guy who was a witness there in court wound down the window and said, you're right mate.
My brother stuck his thumb up like he always does. Yeah good, and then he went down to the floor and it died. That's me.
Yeah, what So what happened? Did you find them or did the cops find them first?
So one of them was found and he ended up getting stabbed twice with his own knife. I'm not sure who did that, but because the person was never found, who did that to him? But he survived, and he survived, and you know what, you woudn't even believe it. Maybe he looked at him, you woudn't even think, how the hell did you survive? Because he was just a bone of a man, you know, he was like an old bone of a man. But I found out that he'd been stabbed and that he'd been took to the hospital,
and I went up. I went to the hospital to finish a job that somebody else said, who they never found did in the first place. So I went up to the hospital to finish the job and there was police everywhere. Mate, like they'd send me up there. They rushed me out of the hospital. They said, what are you doing up here? I said, oh, come up to
pick my friend up from the hospital. And they said, you've come up to pick your friend And I knew he was in a room there and I've gone to go into the room and they was like the police were there. They rushed me out of the room. They said, what are you doing here? I said, I've come to pick up my friend. And I said, is this not the staff room? They went, you know, this is not the staff room. And I was like, I said, who have you come to pick up? Honestly, I think my
brother goes to us. A guy come walking down and goes, right, Paul, you're right, I said, this is who I've come to pick up, haven't I come to pick you up? And I'm looking at him thinking, please just say yes, and he said yeah, and I said come and then let's go. And they were like, make sure you leave the ground. So I was like, of course, I'm leaving the grounds. I'm taking him home. And I took him and he said, Paul, I'm at work. You can't take me. And I was like,
you're coming with me. So I kidnapped this geezer. I didn't kidnap him. I took him with me. Yeah, I've took him with me. He's come with me off his own free wheel. He's got in the car. We've gone around the back of the hospital. I've dropped him off at the back of the hospital and he's gone back to work and I've gone off. You know, but I really wanted him. I really wanted him. I'd gone up to sleep his throat mate, and I would have done as well.
But so that's what they don't get. They got life. Yeah.
Yeah, So they got him, and then they're the three others in tow. They ended up coming in. So I guess one said the other one, and you know, you know, we're the street of the code is not not there when you're looking at a lot of until murder, I guess. So they all grass each other up and they ended up getting caught, all four of them, and I never got a chance to get And there was another one. There was two people from my town. There was two people from London. The two people from London went back
to London. The two people from my town I hunted them. The second person after that was a guy who was on the phone saying the orders from the guy from London to the others to do what they got to do. And I got his address. I went to his house. I tried kicking the door and it ain't coming off. He lived in a flat upstairs. There was a driveway downstairs with a white van, and there were tinted windows.
The geezer knew I was coming, and he knew that I was hunting them, and he had nowhere to go, and he ended up moving from his flat into his van that was on the driveway, and I was standing on the driveway looking in the tinted windows. So what I've done is I turned my back to the street, so it allowed them to come out of the house to get me from behind, but I was still seeing what was behind me. So I used the windows. But little did I know whilst I'm on the phone going.
You fucking told me that he was going to be here. I'm here, Where is he? And they go, poor, I swear to you, he's there. He's there. He hasn't left the house. Yeah, he was on the other side of the window. He was in the van. He moved into the van. He was literally in front of me. And I didn't know that until we were in court. Fucking now, I didn't know until we were in court. If I had known it, I would have got in the van. He would have been I would have been able to
I would have ruined him. But you know, I'm not a murderer. I'm not an ard man. I'm not a psycho. I'm just a guy that had a family member that was killed, and I would have done anything to make it right. Do you know what I mean? You know, and any but anybody that loses a sibling would have done the same thing. You don't have to be ard to do what I was. I went off to do what what?
What goes through your mind now knowing that the they're in jail and doing life. Yeah, they've taken your brother.
Listen, I've been given a task from my family that I failed, and I had so much like listen, I had so much rage in me that I wanted these people that took what I believed was my hero. Do you know what I mean away from me? Because I never done My brother would have done it. My brother would have because that drug world is not my world. So I didn't know where to go, so I was slow on the uptake. I had to find people to feed the information to get me to where I needed
to be. Where my brother is of that world, he would have known exactly where to go, and he would have done what I failed to do for me. You know That's how I thought at the time. You've got to remember, I'm built up. I'm so built up that I'm looking for for murderers and I'm going to kill them. I Am going to kill these geezes. I'm going to make I'm going to make them suffer. I had this in me, this rage I'm dealing with, like I say, skits and stuff. So I'm already built up and I'm
made to feel that way automatically genetically. Yeah, So I'm there. And when people take that away from you and you've got nowhere of letting that out. The only way I could let that go and let that be free. It's by killing these people and that's what I wanted.
Do you still have that rage now for the four this? Or have you come to I wouldn't say peace with it, but are you? Just like camera is a big thing, but I think.
I've learned manifestation when it comes to come, I've learned manifestation. Like right now, they're in jail and there's nothing I can do, so I'm not at peace, but I'm at a level where I know that one day they're going to come out, and I know when they come out that I don't know how. I don't know how I'm going to feel when they come out. I don't know whether I know two of them are probably die in jowl because they're old. They'll be in their seventies when
they get released, so they're probably going to die. And the other two are from London, but I'll probably never even bump into them. But if I did bump into them, I don't know, man, I don't know. I don't think any amount of recovery or space to freedom that I get with learning how to live with myself, would I probably be able to walk away from someone that took my brother?
Have you ever tried to go to the jail where they are.
They won't let me. They won't let me because there was that lord that was brought in where you can come face to face with your video. Yeah, and I've asked about it. I've asked about it because I want to know why. I want to know the truth. I want to know. I want to know how they're thinking. Now do they regret it? That's what I want to know. You know. Doing the podcast for myself on my own channel, I needed a It was therapy for me, you know,
it was therapy for me. And hearing other people's stories, people that forgive, and and you know Michael Emmett, he's he does a Alpha God in prison. He does. It's massive, it's absolutely huge. And he says forgiveness is the cure to your soul. And he says, I need to forgive to be able to move on. I don't think I can. I really genuinely don't believe I can. So I guess
I'll never move on from it. But I won't know, because you know, if someone if you don't like someone and you never see them, they kind of go away, but when you see them, everything comes back a bit like when I said when I was sixteen, that guy come back to me. I was ready for him. But when it comes back, it all come back. It's that
feeling it. I won't know until I either they get released or I'll bump into them, but I'd imagine that they wouldn't be allowed anywhere near us and the family anyway. But if it's London, I got family in London, I'm sure i'll bump into them. And I don't know what it'll be. I'm going to be in my fifties at the time they'll come out anyway, like mid fifties, So I need to stay sharp, you know that.
But your brother's legacy lives on in your in your charity, Yeah, in the charity that you do, and also that you did the is it the Blue? Tell me about the bleak control kids that you got around.
So I've done a lot of raising awareness in that the schools were a bit empty with letting us go in because they felt like if they'd let them in, then they'd be letting the parents know that there's a knife crime problem within that school, and the OFFSTED rating would stop them from being funded. So they're not they're not free on letting us raise awareness on knife crime. You know. So I'm anti anti knife, anti weapon. Now do you know where before I lived and lived and
died for it. But I've been on the other side, so I know, you know, so I had to figure out ways to try and raise awareness or what we're doing globally, not just within my town, like everywhere, because I don't want to want to feel it the way that I feel because I'm chewed up, you know. So we started doing charity events and we were going out to car events and basketball events, anything that we could
do to raise awareness. We've got like the all the marquee that says stop and I crime, the leaflets, we've done our own leaflets. The police have took them in. They love it all, they love what we do. But the a few more people got stabbed in our town, a couple of kids, a couple of adults, and they died. But if there would have been something there that would have helped them and they probably some of them would probably be alive. Maybe my brother would be alive. I
don't know. We don't know because it's like there wasn't anything there is.
The knife crime that bad still in England is it is.
It like, yeah, yeah, it's the chosen now. If people are honest for themselves, Yeah, if people are honest with themselves, we're the younger generation are a generation that cannot fight.
Yeah, true, that's very true.
Oh my god. They have got balls. Yeah, they've got no problems with taking your life. Yeah, but they can't do it physically, so they have to do it with at all. They will stab you before they'll punch out, because if they punch it, they know they get hit back and they can't take it.
Yeah.
I don't know. I don't know what it is with them. I don't know. I don't get it. Like you can punch someone and you just go back and punch them again. But you're alive, you can live, you're free, you're out. But now someone to stab you with an eighteen inch twenty inch knife before they do even punch or slap you around the face. It's mental. They cannot fight, but they have more balls. That's an very scary thing.
That's very true. Bro, that's very true. That's where it's like over you too.
Yeah, they got they got more balls. We had when we were younger, but we had no fear like they. We would know that if we was going to stab here, there's a possibility that you'll die. Yeah, but if we had a punch up, the reputation leaves greater, stronger because you're out, you're you know, you're you're you're out, you're free, you're alive. Where if you stab someone get reputation, Oh you're a murderer, but you're in jail, no one out here. You're forgotten and you won't even be allowed to come
back here to live that. That reputation anyway, just pointless.
I'll never change. It's because the generation and the generation just gets worse and worse and worse.
Yeah, but we are a product of our environment, and we led the path for this to happen, do you know what I mean? We would. We was the first, and then the people before us were the first, and we just get bread more crazier because you know, we're a product. This is what we've done to our environment. And that's what I mean. I took so much away from my environment and where I live that now I just give back and it's by far greater rewarding now than what itever has been when I was a lunatic.
Yeah, have you got a lot of support for your charity over there like that.
Absolutely, not financially, not financially from you know, the peers that have got endless amounts of money that they can give us. The government can give us money. They don't. They don't. They don't give us no money. They don't give us no money because we're raising awareness that there's a problem within the town rather than getting on top of it and having a solution with the problem. It's not. So what we do is we private fund and we do everything we can. We've got a lady in the
studio that works for us called Amy. She does charity days where she does tattoos, raise money. We go out and we we ask companies, small businesses to get involved. Everyone's involved because people have had enoughing now, people have got kids that are going to jail. They're not even having a sixteenth birthday out here. They're either dead or they're in jail. You know. Can you imagine celebrating your sixteenth your sixteenth birthday, your child's sixteenth birthday cemetery? Yeah,
you know, I imagine that. So people have had enough and they're getting involved with us, and they see that we're doing I thought we was only going to raise we managed to buy free kids ourselves. We bought three kits ourselves. We got them up and the our town went mental. They couldn't believe and they all jumped on board. They absolutely was like, thank you so much. You know, even the gangs, even the gangs they come across us, So thanks for what you're doing because I know I'm
going to need that. The kids know they're thanking the same thank you because they know that they're going to need it. We've put a kit in every estate where all the kids knock around at the shops. We've got thirty three kits out so far and we've got what's there another ten. We've got another nine up here ready to go out. You know, we're secured Ipswich. We secured the couple of towns next to us, and the legacy
is becoming stronger. They are when this is getting better and people are recognizing what we're doing, I get more. I get more recognized now for the stuff that we're doing with the charity and the emergency BLEA control kits, and than I do for the business that I have in the town. He used to be the other way around, but I just didn't I didn't want to be, Oh, you're that guy whose brother was stabbed, and I didn't want my brother to be your brother was the one
that died because he got stabbed. You know. I wanted it to be like you see his face, you see what we're doing. I wanted him to be back to what I remember is in when we were a kid and there was a legend and he regrets. I regret meeting the women that I've been with, and I mean that as well with all my heart, like seriously, other than the women's side of things, I regret the pain that I caused people when I was at my worst, because I know how it feels now where I didn't then.
It was all ego then, but now it's all pain now, So I know, I know. I I regret. I regret causing people suffer. I regret all the negative emotions that I created around that surrounded me to be able to cause people harm, to be able to boost my ego. So I regret. I regret that.
So you you actually think that that that that violent you is is no longer there anymore. That's the second time I've got you. You you put yourself in that hole.
Listen, yeah, it's not that. That mean that means is gone. Yeah, that that that hot, that hot happening instant is gone. Like the violent side of things. If if I get like I said to you earlier on, if if I was to be if I was to be put into a corner, it's there. It's always gonna be there, exactly. You never lose that. If you've got that, if you've got that animal there and the disease, if it's there, you ain't never losing it. It's never gone, you know,
it never is. But do I want to cause people problems? Now? That's gone, that's long gone. I'm definitely not the first person to to to be on that like ego trip where I have to make sure that you know that I'm the better person. That's that's long gone. But if you put me into a corner, hello, oh.
Man, you're just a mate, You're just a teddy bear, come.
On, exactly exactly, you know. So for onwards and upwards, it's just positivity and awareness really and just to carry on just being being happy, being and just you know, staying away from as much of the negative as I can. It's testing, it's testing you know yourself it's harder to be good than it is to be bad.
I'm so glad you came on to talk about it. And it's you know, as I said, it's not just here that'll hear it over here and everyone else. That's why I said, if you want to give, you give you a charity, a plug and all like that, and so it's you know, it gets out there and the charities.
Be Lucky Anti Crime Foundation my brother always he never said goodbye, he always said be Lucky, so it was named after him. Really, so it's Be Lucky Anti Crime Foundation. The podcast where our raise awareness where people haven't had a voice or they've been they've been shut down to be able to hear as the Paul Sandsbury Podcast. And that's the same across all social media. My sponsors Black Saint London, they've got a YouTube channel Gang Up as well,
Black Saint London TV. But yeah, it's all based around what I do. If you want to tattoo Lucky thirteen Paul stands by, check it out. Yeah, it's so good. I appreciate you.
Now, bro, it's been a pleasure, man, pleasure. I'm telling you friends for life from one telling friends for next week on Secrets of the Underworld.
Okay, this is gonna sound weird, but I never knew what a gay man looked like. Gay was forbidden. Okay, in the religion gay is so bidden.
We have Trishy Dishy, the Queen of Sydney's Light Light.
People that I know for thirty years turn their back on me, cannot talk to me, cannot look at me, treat me like a lepard. You know that's not That's not a religion of loves. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but you know, I know in my heart I've done the right thing. I don't even drink that much now, but I'll have a couple of cocktails and a few wet passy shots. And that's if you have a job. You just place it add on there shit, and that's how it works.
They work out.
Course, she can't you anymore?
Fuck? You know everything I did, man, right.
You know, like I'm not stupping yet, And people go, aren't you old enough? Haven't you done enough? No, I haven't done enough. Don't ever asked me that again. I get a lot of the sexy girls, you know, working girls as well, so mm hmm.