Scott's loan return. You're seven hundred WL. Here we go back half the week. We are good, sew. Here's what you need to know. Pharmaceuticals very expensive, especially insulin. If you are on insulin, you know how expensive that is.
And the Federal Trade Commission a number of states and cities, and now Hamilton County, Ohio suing three pharmacy benefit managers at ECBs, care Mark, Express Scripts and optim Rx, as well as Eli, Lilly, Novo, Nordisk, and another manufacture, and those comprise about ninety six ninety seven percent of the insulin market. And the reason they're suing them is for allegedly fixing insulin and diabetes drug prices. So right now, if you look at the cost it what have cost them?
Because about now less than are around two dollars a vile to make that sells for literally hundreds of times that we're talking one to three hundred times what the cost is. And the suit alleges illegal price manipulation on this is County Commissioner Denise Treehouse. Welcome back to the show, Denise. How are you.
I'm good, good morning, Scott.
Good Mark. You seem healthy. I'm healthy in this regard. I am not on insulin, and I also don't think I have anyone of my immediate family on insulin. But I hear the horror stories.
Oh, there are many, many people that use insulin. It's a life saving drugs. And in Hamilton County we've got about eighty eight hundred county employees and family members that use insulin, and that.
I believe is the highest drug category for coverage, right, yeah, yeah.
Fromenty twenty three to twenty twenty five, this diabetes medication was the single highest cost prescription drug category for the county.
Okay, So what triggered the county to jump in this lawsuit?
Now?
Was there a particular spiking costs complaints from employees or was it because the FTC settled with Express Scripts and said, hey, there's an opportunity here to go after the other pharmacy benefit managers and certainly the drug manufacturers.
Well, prosecutor pillage this to our attention, to be fair, I didn't. This wasn't my idea, although I love the idea because other communities, as you just said, were waging lawsuits. They're about five hundred and fifty other entities, whether they're state cities, health plans and so they are, you know, weighing in on this, and we didn't want to miss
the boat. It kind of reminds me of the opioid settlements where we were chewing and then we joined others in that lawsuit to bring some resources down to Hamilton County.
All right, No, that makes sense. I know that the defendants here in this is in case the companies point out that previous insulin pricing cases have been dropped or lost or settled for no money. What makes you think this time is the magic charm, the magic bullet in Hamlin County and the other areas of successful days.
Well, first of all, we're not paying anything upfront to wage the lawsuit because we only pay if we win, and so much like the opioid settlement, right, so we're not no money lost to hear. But also what we know is that, as you said, the cost of insulin is skyrocketed, but the cost to produce insulin has gone down, and so we are waging that they are colluding. They are it's false price fixing, and so that's what we're
saying in the lawsuit. And I think we've got a really good case in winning, as do five hundred and forty nine other jurisdiction.
Yeah, in the drug manufacturer as they say that the out of pocket costs are pretty low. Lily's been claiming listen, it's like less than fifteen bucks a month on average. So if the math mass there, if employees aren't paying hundreds of per mile out of pocket, who's actually bearing the inflated costs? That's the big question is taxpayers to the county plan And that's why the county's evolved because this is taxpayer money.
Well, we're paying thirteen million dollars for insulin coverage for the county. That's a lot of money. And if we can reduce that cost because we don't have these folks colluding about price fixing, then we reduce the cost to the county, and that translates the cost savings for.
The tax payers. The PBMs argue that they're actually the counterweight, that they balance pharmaceutical the pharmaceutical monopoly with this and that they can negotiate down prices. You how would you respond to that? Why they included in the suit?
Then well, that's that's a question for the prosecutor. I mean, I'm not an attorney, and I don't pretend to be one, but the process.
That's why I like you, Denise, That's why we like you.
Yeah, I only say what I know. But Connie and her team have identified the as you say, the drug manufacturers and the benefit managers as part of this lawsuit. I trust that, and I'm more than happy to pile on and say, yes, this sounds like a good idea. We need to go after these guys and say the taxpayer some money.
That's what I'm calling you. You were right in the coach of Cokannie's doing all the talk and you were standing in the background. I like that.
I like that.
You're going to a look crowdit for standing back there and ride the evape trail. She is Denniy's freehouse Hamlet County Commissioner. We're talking about the county now jumping on the lawsuit bandwag and no cost to the tax payers either, because there's a contingency basis. They went to the back of the proverbial phone book and found lawyers out to think out of phillyre somewhere and said, Okay, we're going
to try this as a class and it's Philadelphia. It's also, as I mentioned, other states are getting involved with us as well. I think Hamilton in the first county to do this, and they're upset about obviously high insulin prices. You need that to live, and the costs of production are dwarfed by the cost it actually winds up paying by taxpayers and those people who need that medicine to live. We're talking one hundred two hundred, three hundred percent mark up on that, and that is the cause for the
suit here too. But part of this is how much of this is should be at the federal government's feet though, you know, the opia you mentioned at the onset Denise
about this kind of models the opiate lawsuit. But you know, as I recall with opiate, it's one of the big problems, was it no one ever addressed was well, you know, the FDA mandated, the government mandated that pain be treated as a fifth vital sign, and so that encouraged the over prescription of these things that later the government said, well they're bad for you. O. Well, you had a hand of that, you drove that. I think the same thing is here. You know, the one of the big
problems is patent ever greening. I'm out of here familiar with that, but the original patents expired a decade ago, and what they do is they just slightly reformulated to keep the patent alive to make more money. Is that something you can be cleaned up by Congress?
Well, I mean I think we should be tackling this at all levels, of course, but this one is you know, and by the way, we hope to be part of a multi jurisdictional litigation that's coming out of New Jersey. So that's what this is about. So we are filing it individually. And if we don't get to be part of the multi jurisdiction litification, that's fine, we'll pursue it
on our own. But the idea here, it's much like the opioids, is to join together with others that are doing the same thing to bring down resources to our local community. If we don't file suit, we miss out. And why would we do that. I mean, you know so because so many others are in and yes, we should tackle this at all levels, but we don't want Hamilton County to be left out of you know, what's happened in many other states and jurisdictions.
I always go on record, God, I always hate what politics is doing in this country right now, because it's so mindless in bottom feeding and my side v your side, And I'm not alleging you doing that, but I'd go back and go you know, this has been a problem for a long time. Why are we waiting until now to address it? Because this has been a problem under Republican administrations as well as Democrats. And the lawsuit targets
PBS and manufactures. But like I said, you know, the rebate system we can get into that is the core problem.
But like I said, you know, whether it's that or the patent issue, patent evergreening, or the PBM scheme that requires legislation to fix, not litigation, what's forcing Congress to actually do their job here other than going after the I guess the people are profiting it from which feels good and it's very, very populous, But again, it doesn't address the core issue, and that is government helped create this whole thing.
Well, and I you know, I can't speak to why the government at the federal level is not acting on this. I mean I can't speak for them.
No money is why they're not acting on it.
Well, well, you know you have to ask them. And again I'm not going to speak for other people, but this litigation out of New Jersey is the prompt here. That is the reason for the action. Now there's something going on, it's got legs. We want to take advantage
of that. We want to be part of it. And so that from my understanding, and again and prosecutor brought this to it, but that is a prompt on by way of timing, because there's something rolling down the tracks, and if we don't jump on and file suit, we miss and so we don't want to miss that. So the opportunity is now.
Okay, if you win, though, get what you want in your fourth lower prices. What's going to prevent these companies from simply exiting the Ohio market.
I don't know the answer to that.
I mean, that's a third round. I don't know that they will, but that's a third round. Like, hey, if we can't make money off this, then we're out. We've seen that happen elsewhere and I don't know if that happened here or not, but that's that's pretty sobering. And then where you get your diabetes medication.
Well, I'm not suggesting that these companies shouldn't make money. We're saying that they shouldn't be colluding with one another to jack up prices on taxpayers. That's what we're saying. I mean, I am not used to be a small business owner, as I've told you before. So you know, businesses make money. That's fine, they've got their nets, they're selling insulin, that's great. But to collude and falsely elevate prices is something entirely different. And so that's what we're saying.
We're not saying they shouldn't make money, and they will make money, but they shouldn't make as much as they are by colluding with one another.
Gotcha, did you guys have to make going into this to Connie share with you what the estimate of potential recovery is here? How much money?
You know? I asked that question. So I just told you that we're spending about thirteen million for this cost of account. It's a lot of money, and so I mean, I don't know the answer to that, but if it's a few millions, that's really meaningful in a budget that's you know, strained and will be strained last year, it'll be strained next year. But any money that we can find to help with that is going to be to our benefits for sure?
Who would get the money? Does go back in the general fund? Does it? Does it go directly towards prescription prices and offset with the county pays? Does it go to to the Bengals? Where's the money going? Somehow went there? I think Mike Brown gets a percentage. I don't know how this sits. Apparently in the master agreement is.
Your preoccupation with the bankers? But no, no, it'll go into the general fund. And so then we have to make a decision commissioners. You know, the general fund pays for the deputies for for nine to one one call takers. Are all the things that we've always talked about? Or is it a benefit to those that are in the benefits system, the healthcare system of the county. And do we offer some relief somewhere else for our employees or do we put it more towards the general fund for
more general purposes? And that's something we'll have to decide.
Down the road. If this is successful, does that open the door for other suits for other things that might be expensive? I mean, do you just continue this path? I'm not saying it's a bad path, but what open mind. Hey, we got money, We're able to fix this. What's next.
Well, I think we always should be open to an opportunity when there's a big suit going on in multi jurisdiction litigation, I think we should always be open to piling on it is worthy, right, if it's worthy of our attention. Again, we're not paying any money to do this right now, it's on a contingent basis, So that's the good news for the taxpayers. But yeah, I don't know why we wouldn't look for opportunities to write size
things in Hamilton County. But again, you know, I'm not the prosecutor, and so the prosecutor's job literally is to file these actions with the support of the Commission, and so that's what we're doing here.
Yeah, yeah, I mean this has been a let's face it, back to politics. This has been a talking point for Democrats for a long long time. I mean, it used to be the insulin cost two dollars to make. That's been thrown around for a long long time. And now we're there's action on this. And you know, obviously Democrats get hammered on cost of living issues, and now that's
starting to turn the other way. But you know, I think this is maybe a populist idea here that has some legs, and find out exactly if you can get some money back from these companies. I just wonder, why don't we just address the route. As you said, that's outside of your scope as a commissioner. I appreciate and understand that. I think we're both frustrated with the system
the way it is right now, especially with healthcare. I don't know if this fixes it, but it does cost some of that money back, because you know, if you need insulin to live and you can't afford it, that's a huge problem. And also that thirteen million dollars that the county pays, and these are for people who have coverage because they work for the county. There's so many people that don't. And that's a scary part well.
And you know, we don't want these companies taking advantage of, you know, providing a drug that's life saving to people in our community. I mean, it's insulting, I think. And so when you particularly when you talk about insulin, because it's not like this is some drug that people may or may not want to use. This is life saving. People need the drug and to to collude over the prices of insulin, I think is an insult. I really do. And so we're holding the companies accountable. I think that's
what we should do. I think that's what frankly, people expect of their elected officials. And so, you know what we're doing it the time is right. I can't really speak to the timing otherwise, but I know that the timing is right here to join this suit coming out of New Jersey, And so that's what we're doing.
Do you believe there's a collusion going on or is that is that a fact?
Has it been proven that that is what is being alleged.
Yeah, that's a tough one to prove that they're all in on this together than saying, hey, it costs what a cost. And the way the system is set up that that those who regulate the system allowed this to occur. I think it'd be more of an indictment of the of the politic of those again above us in Washington versus the companies themselves. They've they've got to find a way to make money. And it's kind of like you know, the cries over you know, billionaires paying too few tax
as well. Okay, then fix the system, close those loopholes that you allege are there. That's why are you beating down on the people who are smart enough to figure that out.
I agree, But we just talked about the cost of producing insulin going down, and yet the cost of buying it is going up. So there's something going on here. I think that doesn't make sense, and so I agree with you that you know these are broader issues. We can do what we can do here in Hamilton County to protect the taxpayers here. That's my job and that's what we're trying to do. And you know, it's not
as if others don't see what's happening. I mean, five hundred and fifty other jurisdictions of files too, So this is a big movement and certainly people are paying attention.
Yeah, it's on the heels of tobacco. It's on the heels of the opiate issue as well, and this certainly fits into that categories. Like the next thing is affordable drugs insulin for crying outline. I mean, there's other drugs out there. I think, like you know, the EpiPen thing. Epinephrine is another in that effects far fewer people than than insulin, but I'd imagine if this is successful, that might be something that would be explored. It's a life
saving medication that you need. And you know, we heard that for a long time. It's like, well they only last I forgot, what is ninety days or six months or something like that, and we've got to throw them out and get a new one. And it's just simply not affordable. We don't heard those crises as much anymore. There are some I think there were some regulation that's been done, but you know, there are plenty of drugs out there that you could wind up going after as a result of this.
Well, that's right, and epiethin's are extremely expensive. So I've got some personal experience with one of my relatives, right, So yeah, I mean, I agree with you. And let's not forget though that the benefit and this is a little different from the opioid settlement money, but those dollars that we are investing now because we were successful and that lawsuit, are going directly into Hamilton County to save
lives and get people into treatment. I mean so, and then it's coming through the foundation at the state level, but there are direct payments coming to Hamilton County and other jurisdictions in Hamilton County to the benefit of our constituents.
So this is real. The benefits are real. This is a little different because it's going to the general fund, but those are taxpayer dollars and so you know, I just don't want to understate that there's a real benefit here if we win and there's no cast involved to do it, so you know, again, to me, it's just a win win situation. So yeah, but the benefits can be real and seen on the ground.
Has this fir amount in New Jersey? Have the litigators giving you a timeline? No?
I asked that question too, and you know how attorneys are They were, oh, yeah, not sure, you know we're doing like all right, all right, I get it. So yeah, no, I'm you know, I'm not an attorney, and I'm not I'm not disappointed by it.
Yeah right, Well I'm sna. There's plenty attorneys out there, have some of our good friends of mine, and then there's people like yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, get it. Hey, Denise, thanks for jumping on this morning. Answer the question certainly an interesting perspective. We're going to talk about this a little bit behind your back if you don't mind, we'll get some calls and from people affected by this and you have a wonderful day. Thanks again for jumping on.
Hey can I ask you something?
Yes, ma'am.
Yes, So, I don't know how much time we have, but we did do a big dedication yesterday out at in Bonds Hill for the big building, the Mercy Building out there.
Yes, right right right, yeah, yeah, please go ahead, yeah yeah.
So two days we named the street going up to the building, Pat McCollum Way. This is a named after a woman that took in many, many kids in our community both foster care adoptive care, and was tragically killed not so long ago, and so we named the street after her because of the nexus with jobs and family services, so we wanted to honor her legacy through naming the street. But the building itself was owned by Mercy. We now
have it. It's a consolidation of county services up in one site, so lots of efficiencies here for jff d D, public health, addiction response, environmental services, and veteran services are going to be up there. So it's centrally located in the county. And I just want to say there's free parking. There's free parking at this facility. There are a thousand spots out there, and so you don't I always hear about the cost of parking, how terrible it is to
come downtown. That is no longer the case, and so we're very excited about this. It's accessible to people that need that kind of access, particularly veterans. So we're really excited about the opening of the building and we dedicated it yesterday.
You know, we were texting back and forth. I completely forgot because I'm stupid to mention. I'm glad you brought that up because I wanted to definitely get a plug in for that six I think sixty million dollars was the cost. Now you also have This is the other hard part here is this huge levey on the ballot for children's services. But loves to revisit that maybe the later date, because those two things go together. You got the building, but now you got a fund.
Well, the other thing is that we're getting out of a bunch of different buildings because of all those departments. We're in different buildings all over the city and so as we just like the alms and depky Downtown is a good example of it that is now going to be converted into housing, as will a property up in Walnut Hills. And so it's really great for the communities because we're and you see this all over the country, we're converting office space into residential and we need residential.
So it's just really a great move for the county and it's going to save money.
All right, I'm sure we'll talk about that a later date with the love come up and Denise sall the best. Thanks for jumping on. I appreciate you.
Yeah, sure, thanks, all right, got.
Well, let me get a news update in. I want to talk if you're on the insulin. I'm just curious because I don't have anyone in my family that is, and that's a blessing for sure, because I know how hard that is being diabetic, but the impact of that, I'm your wallet. And also, if you think this is a good idea ensuing the drug companies to get the price of insulin down, we'll talk about that, dex. I'll give you some reasons as to why you know this
this whole scenario exists. I mentioned the government getting involved in regulation that can easily fix on me easily but fixed by Congress I want to touch on that in just minutes, and we'll get your phone calls in at five one, three, seven four nine, seven thousand, iHeartMedia and
seven hundred wi Wity Cincinnati's on Procter and Gamble. If you've got someone there you would like for us to recognize on the air, just text us their name at five one eight eight one and be listening here on seven hundred Wabiity