¶ Psychology and Sociology in Business
Hi and welcome to the Scenic Root podcast . This is the show for building a successful and sustainable business on your terms . My name is Jen and I'm a rebranding sociologist with a soft spot for RootBarp . Hi . Each week , I'll strive to expand your branding , business expertise and mindset capacity . I'm so excited you're here , and now let's get into today's episode .
Ray Hyde-Cornel is a business mentor and coach at Curran Consulting and CEO and senior copywriter at Cornell Content Marketing . Over her 15-plus years in online marketing and writing , ray has worked in hundreds of businesses , helping them grow and achieve their goals .
As a mentor and coach at Curran Consulting , she works with freelancers and self-employed entrepreneurs to help them dramatically increase their income and their quality of life as independent income generators . At Cornell Content Marketing , ray teaches entrepreneurs and business owners how to use content to build powerful , lasting relationship with customers .
Ray hi , welcome to the Scenic Root podcast .
Thank you . Thank you so much for having me .
I'm so excited . I'm already like this is going to be so good Because , as you'll know in a minute , ray is a psychologist . So today , our working title for this episode is a psychologist and a sociologist walking to a Zoom room . So this is going to be good . Let's buckle up . But before we go into that line , ray , please briefly walk us through your story .
How you started , how you got today . What do people get when they work with you ? Give us the big moments .
Yeah , yeah . So I've been doing copywriting , content creation and digital marketing for almost 16 years now , and when I first started out , I started out as a freelance web developer and freelance writer , and I was doing that freelance to put myself through school .
So I got a bachelor's degree in psychology , a master's in professional clinical counseling and another master's in criminology Wow , and I was working at a mental hospital , a drug rehab center , community counseling facility and I was on track to be a counselor in the prison system . That's kind of where I was headed . While working at the mental hospital .
I just completely burned out on the mental health world all the bureaucracy , all the red tape that really prevented us from actually doing good and helping people in the way that they needed , as opposed to just oh , this paper says that I can only do this , so I quit the mental health world .
I left all the psychology stuff behind and I threw myself full time into my side hustle , freelance writing , and I just built my business up from there and I have now grown from a solopreneur operation to having a full blown agency . Congratulations , thank you . I recently retired my husband .
He now works with me full time and it took me a long time to kind of come to terms with leaving the psychology world and I'm like I got three degrees . I paid for all of that , like why ?
I gotta see a return on that .
Exactly , and it wasn't until I was actually mentioning my psych background on sales calls as a freelance writer , when potential clients would just like perk up and they'd go oh , I like that . I like that you have that experience , I like that you have that psych background and I learned that actually that's a selling point .
Yeah , I mean , that's where now , like you have to the branding person in the room , like right , this is a gold mine .
Exactly . But I was so bitter about my student loans and like going through all this education to not actually use it for the intended purpose .
But now it all really works really well together and I can't imagine being a copywriter without at least some knowledge and understanding of psychology and human behavior , the way people make decisions , the emotional pull of decision making .
It's so handy and I know you understand this as a branding expert with a sociology background it just everything just dovetails so nicely .
But it reminds me of like when I , after I graduated with my master's in sociology and I went on like the first like job interviews and stuff , like oh my God , the countless times , I got a question of like oh okay , but this is like a branding or like a project manager position in like financial communication or brand communication . What are you doing here ?
I'm like , well , a , you invited me , but B I mean there's like only one discipline that actually looks like why people trust institutions , trust companies , trust brands , trust things that are not real , like money . Like we got to look at that . What is kind of like that glue that keeps everything together ? And I mean that's sociology and a lot of .
And then I kind of like got the question oh , why didn't you study psychology ? And I'm like , yeah , I had some social psychology classes too , but it's just a different focus .
Maybe that would be cool for people to , for listeners to understand , like sociologies more , looking at how people interact in systems and societies , or deal with cultural beliefs like religion or systems like money . Why do we believe in a nation Like ? Why do nations work ?
Why do we believe in arbitrary borders , like all those kind of like things , whereas social psychology more focuses on like okay , well , how do I behave as a single individual , behave in group settings and class and family settings and so on .
Yes , exactly , I think you nailed it . For me , sociology is the macro , it's the system , it's the larger organism of different entities and bodies and minds interacting with one another either in order or in chaos . And then psychology is the micro level .
It's what is the order and chaos going on in our individual minds and what influences are at play thoughts , beliefs , emotions , relationships but all within our own heads .
When you look at sociology , you're talking about multiple heads and sometimes those heads don't even have heads because they're brands , they're just organizations or entities , or countries and it's just really interesting .
And there's a lot of crossover , especially when we think about role definitions and conflicts we have with roles , whether that be with the different roles inside ourselves or how others see our roles , like how we should perform , how we don't perform .
It has a lot of crossovers and I'm glad we kind of like cleared this up briefly , so to kind of like hey , you know , there's a lot of things where together we have like , phew , right , exactly , exactly .
And when you talk about like we act differently in different situations , you know , if I think about how I act with my husband when we're home and we're just kind of laughing or chit-chatting or , you know , planning something , whatever it might be , I act very differently than if I'm in a room with my grandmother or my father .
I act very differently , I feel different because there's a different dynamic between those people .
And then when you think about that in the context of what we do professionally , brands take on a persona , they take on an archetype and that could be kind of that father figure , that big brother that yeah , or you digest her at a funny one , or the smart one , the caring one .
Or it could be the lover , the romantic partner , the best friend , who is more on your peer level and , depending on how you want people to respond to your brand , you need to take on the appropriate archetype , and so it's all very interconnected and it's like this .
You know , it's kind of like if you go to a carnival funhouse and you go into the hall of mirrors . It's like these layers upon layers , where one dynamic between you and one other person is echoed into these bigger relationships between entire groups and bigger organizations or companies .
Yes , yes , I love this and I think the key is and that is that might be it's it's a double-sided sword , right , like if you're starting at a first solopreneur . That whole thing is kind of easier and harder at the same time , right , because you're like , oh sure , like I , it's easy .
I'm just one , I know I'm like the rebel or the , the , the carer or whatever the lover , but at the same time , it's not you , it's your brand . So what are you sharing ? What are you not sharing ? How how to navigate all of this ? So I mean , that's like you could write an entire book about this right and that's where it gets really .
It gets so tricky , especially with social media nowadays , because we all kind of know what you see on Instagram is Probably not that person's full reality . You're just getting the little snippets of what they want you to see .
But as a solopreneur , as a self-employed business owner , in my opinion it's much easier to Create a brand that has longevity when that brand as closely as possible matches who you actually are , and so you know we can talk about being an individual person and then having your brand be something separate , but if you're a solopreneur , it gets exhausting if those two
things are too far apart . And so if you are going to build a brand that is Not draining but actually energizes you and helps you build a better business and helps you get the clients that you Actually really like and connect with and enjoy serving , your brand needs to be as close to who you are as possible without crossing into this is .
You know , there's no difference between my personal life and my business life .
Yeah , and I mean I even . I'd even go a step further and say your brand's not gonna be successful if you're Retending to be someone else , right ?
We have a very good sense for who's .
Something smells fishy and a and B .
¶ Selling and Understanding Psychological Insights
We have so many Touchpoints these days where people can get to know you and interact with you and if Just on one of those touch points that say an email or a landing page or an ad or you , they heard you on a podcast or whatever , they get an impression You're someone completely different , people are confused . Yeah , and I mean you as a psychologist .
If you confuse them , you lose them . There is , yeah , there's some truth in that . We're not just saying this exactly . I really , yeah , it's really interesting and it's really true that it has to Get up , be as close to who you are , so it just comes more natural to you , more effortlessly like and so on . And . But here comes like the brand lens .
It's kind of like an adding another layer . It's you . It has to be a brand that you like or a brand persona that has to be close to you , but it has also it has also has to be seen as this persona by someone else .
Yeah , right , if you see yourself as the caregiver by all the criteria you define for itself , and people look at it and be like no , actually that's not giving me caregiver vibes , right , it's you're also gonna confuse them .
So right , that's where , like , where we're like , see , this is how we add a layer on top of the layer , top of the layer , and not to complicate matters further .
But when you're doing business and when you're leveraging this in action , you have three layers . You have your brand . That's the outward persona , the outward image that you're portraying to the world , and it can be Very static , like it's a logo . It's yeah , the color palette , it's a font , that's your branding and then yours . There's your marketing .
Marketing is more dynamic , it's more movement , it's where you are drawing the person from that first impression with your brand toward you , and then the ultimate goal is to get them to selling .
So you have branding , marketing and then selling , and at each of those stages , like you said , they're having multiple touchpoints with your brand , with your marketing and then with your sales process .
And so if at any point , those things don't connect , if it doesn't all feel like , yeah , the same entity , the same vibe , the same personality , you're going to lose them , because then the other person is going to lose their brand . You lose them because then they go oh , I don't feel safe , I don't feel like what I was promised is what I'm getting .
They bail there's not enough trust .
Yes , you lose their trust . Yeah , exactly .
And I mean we can even make this even more complicated . I mean , we also have a time axis , right , so you have to do this over time , yeah , and I mean , yes , you sometimes have people who see you , who see you once and buy from you , and that's amazing , but A lot of the times we have longer lead times .
We , I don't know , maybe it takes someone six months to decide if they want to work with you , so you have to put that up indefinitely . So , but I mean , I feel like we're Running layer , layer top . But you already touched upon what I want to center this Conversation around , and that is actually what we do in business , our core activity .
We can spend all the time in copywriting and all the time in picking out nice , nice brand colors , but we actually got a sell , yeah , otherwise it's gonna be pretty hard to run business and stay a business . So , um , I would really like get some psychologists insights on Like , why , like .
I feel like if we understand why our clients buy , we have it easier To tailor our copy , our marketing , our branding Towards those little Psychological insights . That like . It's not a golden bullet , it's not a blueprint , but I feel there's Fertin knowledge bombs are about to go off now .
Yeah , Well , one thing that I want to say is a lot of people who are in business for themselves . They got into business to do the thing that they love to do and 99 times out of 100 , that is not selling . They don't enjoy selling . A lot of creatives in particular look at selling .
Oh yeah , I'm hearing all my past clients like , yeah , like , yes , you're an expert service provider . That's how you usually start , right , right , you do something incredibly well Copywriting , taking photos , designing what it is and then you start your business and be like , oh , I'm still good at that . Oh , but I need to learn other stuff too .
Yes , yeah , and so one thing , that . So one thing I didn't explain at the beginning , when you were asking me what I do and everything .
Over the past four years I've been doing mentoring for other freelancers and creatives , and so , within that context , a lot of the clients that I work with they're very relieved when I tell them that they don't have to sell if they don't want to .
And what I mean by that is if you can use your branding and your marketing to get your ideal client 80% of the way there , then our sales call should literally just be answering questions of how does this work and how much is it going to cost , and that's it . That's all you have to do is be honest and explain what it's like to work with you .
You don't have to persuade , you don't have to use scarcity tactics , you don't have to use any of these mental gymnastics . That's not the point .
Yeah , we're not here for this , but here for letting your brand and marketing processes take more of the weight .
Exactly , and if someone goes through that process and they have already made a decision and maybe it's a quasi decision , maybe I'm pretty sure I want to work with this person , but it kind of just depends on what the price is or kind of depends on if they can do my website by the end of the year .
Yes , I mean , if they're completely out of your budget , then maybe it's a yes in like six months when I have to funds .
Right , and then in that selling process , all you have to do is be the solution provider . You have to figure out their problem and offer a solution if you're a good fit . And that's where these kind of psychological principles of selling get very simple , because a lot of people think , okay , how do I convince , how do I sell myself , how do I persuade ?
You don't have to do any of that , you just have to be a human . And that's what a lot of people are craving in the sales process . Who , listening to this , has bought a car and you just feel like , oh , this salesman , he's just trying to get one over on me , he's trying to get me to buy all the bells and whistles , all the packages .
You don't feel like it's a human to human interaction . You feel like it's a business to human interaction . That's not what people want . So when I talk about the psychology of selling , that's exactly what I'm talking about giving people what they want , which is probably exactly what you want to .
So , putting yourself in that person's shoes , you don't need three degrees in psychology and human behavior to understand what people actually want , how you would like to be treated .
Yes , that's such a good point and it really boils down to play to your strengths . You'll never be able to compete for certain projects or work with , let's say , big agencies if you're in a creative space . It's just not going to happen .
But big companies I mean I work for big global corporations Most cases they're not going to work with a single entrepreneur just because it's a liability issue . Play to your strengths You're actually able to put human connection at the core of what you do .
I mean big companies try to kind of like try it with personalized email newsletters and be like hey , we're actually doing super here and you actually have the opportunity , because you're on a much smaller scale , to actually do that and reach out and be personal . And sometimes I always kind of get the impression we're afraid to do things that don't scale .
And I mean I'm not . I am now , but a couple of years ago , if you would have asked me about Gary Vanjerke and someone would be like oh my God , too brozy , but he's come a fucking long way , I think . And one of his favorite quotes is like do shit , it doesn't scale . And like , yes , this is actually it right . Like reach out to people , be more human .
And then let's talk about your real interesting things Getting people what they want . So how do we go about this ? How do we figure out what people want , what people desire , which is often not what they need , so you have to bridge that . How do we go about this ?
Yeah , that's an excellent question , and I think you make a really important distinction . What they want and what they need are very different things , because , for example , let's say , a family is shopping for I don't know , it's winter here and I'm freezing cold . So I'm going to say , like a generator , they're shopping for a generator .
Maybe they have three kids and they're trying to figure out how they're going to pay for it . Maybe what they technically made is the cheapest option because that's what makes sense financially .
But what they want is something that is compact , that's going to fit in a particular corner of their garage , that is not going to make tons of noise and potentially wake up the baby . That's what they want .
It's not exactly what they need , and so if you're going to start this process , you need to start by getting into the mind of the person that you're trying to sell to . And how do you do that ? Well , you got to get crystal-freaking clear on who that person is .
I will tell you , there is not a single entrepreneur that I've ever worked with who has not gone through that feast or famine stage where they're like I will just work with anybody , I just want any job , I just want any design project any writing project You're starting out like that .
That money doesn't smell like .
Exactly , but that only gets you so far and that gets you into a trap of being . It's a slippery slope , exactly , and you end up lowering your prices , lowering your standards , and then you're miserable and you burn out , which is not why you got into this work .
Yeah , those shitty clients refer you their clients , their friends , they're all . They're also shitty clients . So it's like Exactly . Yeah , you're doomed .
So what I always tell people is start with this wave of magic wand scenario who would be your perfect ideal client ? Maybe you've worked with them before . Maybe they're the exact opposite of everyone you've worked with before .
Because you're just tired of all that , get very clear on who exactly you want to work with and then literally do this funky , creative brain exercise where you go okay , what is their day like ? What do they do ? What time do they wake up ? How do they go about their day ? Do they drive to work or do they work from home ? How are they making decisions ?
Who are they working with ? What do they wear to work ? Is their dog barking in the corner while they're working or are they in a really nice , calm , peaceful kind of situation ? Do they work by themselves ? Are they surrounded by their team ? Are they on calls all day long ? Are they answering emails ? How often do they pick up their phone ?
Exactly , bingo , exactly . All of those little details help you understand what is this person struggling with in their day to day ? What do they enjoy ? Where do they find relief ? And I think a lot of people . They get intimidated by this process because they go . I'm trying to sell this person . I don't understand them , I just want them to pick me .
You know other people more than you think you do . We all have mirror neurons . We all have empathy . We all have sympathy . We also unless you're on the spectrum and dealing with autism or Asperger or something like that we all have some sense of social understanding . You can feel when someone stands behind you in the grocery store line .
You all have a sense of other people . Use that . This is not some miracle gift that only a few people have . Everybody has this and you need to go through this mental process of really understanding who you're trying to sell to and what they're struggling with , because it's going to shape everything else that you do in your business .
Yeah , I really like that approach . It's a bit different from , let's say , the classical , the classic persona exercise , and it's really it doesn't . I mean , there are a gazillion different exercises . You can do what might .
Maybe I'm going to challenge this a bit , or are you going to be like , oh , I have I actually haven't said that yet which I probably it's probably going to be that one . My issue with all of that is it's a lot of when people , a lot of times when clients do that it's desk research , self-projected stuff that has nothing to do .
Let's be crass with what people are actually going through . So I have so many clients who are like , yeah , I did that . I'm like , well , okay , how did you do it ? Exactly how many people did you talk to Exactly ?
That's a starting point .
Because actually you also got to talk to other people Exactly and see , okay , what is actually their lived experience and what are they telling me about their day or their pain .
Exactly so when I say literally just sit down , don't even do like desk research and go to the internet . Don't do that . Just literally sit at your desk and try to imagine , literally use your imagination that you haven't used since you were eight years old and try to put yourself in that person's shoes . That's a starting point . But then to your point .
You're exactly right you need to go talk to people . So , just like I said at the beginning , where I hopped on sales calls with potential clients and I just started mentioning my psych background , they're like how did you get into this ? And I mentioned that and they perked up , their eyes lit up , they got really interested , they got curious .
It's so funny . I'm like what's your background ? I'm a sociologist . People go like it's not like the .
Oh , it's the eh Well , because I don't think people understand sociology the way that they understand psychology , and psychology is kind of like this like sexy , mysterious , like ooh , are you going to read my mind , kind of thing . Even though it's not like you know , it's not like that .
Yeah , no , but you can pretend like I have this crystal ball .
And people are fascinated by it and
¶ Understanding Customers Through Conversations
so . But my point in saying that is I did a exercise in my head and then I tested out what I thought might click . I tested it and then you have these conversations to people and you just literally please literally just ask what are you struggling with ?
When you are talking to a prospect , just say what are you struggling with and go into this conversation Don't have a scripted list of questions or talking points .
Just literally sit with them and try to learn about the problems that they're dealing with , because you are going to pick up on so much language , like the exact words that they're using , which can go on your website or in your proposal . You will pick up Copy library yeah , exactly , you will pick up on things that you didn't even realize were problems .
You will touch on kind of surface level things that you probably identified were problems , but then you can ask deeper questions like well , if that problem were solved for you , what would that do for you and your business ? And then you can get to what do they really want ? Because by doing that mental exercise you probably figure out what they need .
But here's where you really dig into what they want and that is priceless . So that mental imagination exercise , that's just the tip of the iceberg . Then you have to go out and test and iterate and dive a little deeper by talking to really real people , and I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say oh , I'm so afraid to talk on the phone .
Well , suck it up , honey . You got to get over it because everyone's just human . And when you realize that you're just talking to other humans and what's the worst thing that happens , they don't buy from you Well then you're in the exact same position that you were in before you talked to them . So you really have nothing to lose , and so much to learn .
I love this , yes , and also it's really that's where both our backgrounds come in , Go out and actually test this and we're not saying ask a thousand people , because whatever we're not doing quantitative data analysis here you got to , let's say I'd say you got to have four to six people , kind of like a focus group of four to six clients , Do four to six
calls . That's already . You already will see patterns emerging of people having similar needs , similar ones using similar verbs . You'll already see clusters and patterns and structures and you'll be like whoa . And of course , you can do 12 . At one point it's probably not going to help much anymore , but really just do four to six and see .
Exactly so it feels a bit intimidating . One . You can start with clients you already have or you have a good relationship with . That's a great starting point , as long as those are clients who you would like more of . The other part is go out and ask peers , mentors , people who feel closer to you and less intimidating than prospects .
Ask them about their experience . What have they learned ? You can do these things gradually to start getting comfortable with doing this real , proactive research in your business . But there's really no excuse and the value you're going to get out of talking to existing clients , colleagues and potential clients is immeasurable .
If you do this and to your point , if you just have four to six conversations , you will learn so much that you can apply in your business and it will catapult you ahead leaps and bounds than if you just stayed in this like , oh , I'm going to apply for this thing on this job board and , oh , I hope this client picks me , but never really having yeah ,
someone posted in a Facebook group Exactly , but never really having these investigative conversations .
Yes , right , and let's sort of go back and to . I mean , if you ask the question and a call and be like what do you need ? Sometimes I feel it's hard , for some people will not be able to articulate what they really need . So it's helpful , I feel , if you have a basic understanding of what our needs , how our needs difference from wants or desires .
And I mean we all when we talk of needs . I'm sure I'm sure almost everyone , I'm sure I'm saying everyone who does this podcast , has heard of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs . I mean psychology 101 , at one point you heard it , right ? If you are not familiar with it , oh , let's see if I can recite it on top of my head . You have , it's a pyramid .
The bottom layers , the basic needs , are physiological needs food , water , wire , fresh safety needs , security , safety and if psychological needs belongingness , relationships , community then you have like everything that's to do with reputation .
It's theme prestige , accomplishment , and the top is kind of like self fulfillment , self actualization , achieving your like , full potential , your full creative potential , and so on . Is that right ? Yes , you got it .
You got it real well , yes . And you can use this in a number of different ways . So when we think about okay , let's say so . I'm just going to use myself as an example . Freelance writer . I am not providing a roof over your head , I am not providing food , I am not providing safety , I'm not providing belonging or love .
You know I'm Well , maybe you are providing safety . Exactly , and that's where you need to get into the nitty gritty of what do these things so this hierarchy of means ? It was designed at a time when humans were still looked at in a very animalistic sort of way .
We're still looked at as having to survive , we have to get by , we have to make sure we have enough food on the table bread , that water is important than food and because we can sustain it longer without food and water . Exactly that loaf of bread is going to make little Johnny strong and then he's going to be able to survive the polio world .
I don't know , I'm making shit up at this point .
Yeah , yeah , no , no . But yeah , it's from a different time than what we currently do .
And so for some people , survival is still very much at the forefront of their minds . And when I talk about copywriting that I'm doing for clients , I'm thinking about who are my clients talking to ? Let's say we're doing copywriting for McDonald's . They could very well be speaking to people who are just trying to survive in this world .
They're trying to make their dollars go as far as possible . Can they get a full meal for their child for $2.50 ? Yes , we might speak to that for McDonald's because of who they're talking to population wise .
But once people are no longer worried about survival , then they move on to worrying about things like safety , belonging , feeling understood , feeling hurt , these more social dynamics . Now things like safety . That doesn't mean do I have a safe place to hide when the tiger comes running at me . It actually means can you keep the lights of your business on ?
Are you able to pay the bills ? Are you saving enough money in your business compared to what you're spending ? That's where you , as the service provider , can help your client because ultimately , their goal is to run a lucrative , profitable business . You very much come into play in that safety layer .
Now that's where they're going to make a logical buying decision based on is this fulfilling what I need and will it cost me a reasonable amount as opposed to an exorbitant amount ? But what's going to differ between the photographer or the copywriter who charges $500 versus the other copywriter or photographer charges $500 ?
That's where this sense of belonging and being understood comes into play . If you're not afraid to have conversations , if you're not afraid to talk to your client and I always make it a point to try and make the people that I'm talking to on my sales calls , I try to make them laugh . If I can make them laugh , their guard comes down . They feel safe .
That's also my secret thing .
They feel comfortable , they feel like , okay , I can just be myself , I don't have to have this business persona .
But this only works because this is you . If this would be a trick , it would not work Right , exactly . So this is not to say , oh , you should always use hoover in your sales calls .
Well , if it's phony and forced , it's not going to work .
If it's naturally who you are , and even if it's the dark kind like this is really me , this is my jam then bring it and it will be authentic and people will love you for it Exactly . Or there are people who are like no , but then it's okay , because you do not want to work with those people , because that's not going to work out in the long run .
Exactly , and that's the thing is . I do that because I want to have . Pretty much all of my clients are friends at this point . I have worked with them so much . I mean they text me , we call we're just so casual . And I want those kinds of relationships with my clients . So I make it a point to be the way that I want us to be in six months .
I am that way on that very first sales call and this speaks to that belonging and connection layer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs , which is to the emotional side of buying . When people buy , yes , logic plays a role , but I would say it's about 25% Everything else is emotional .
If even I'd say I think I've read once it's like 15% or something I feel we overplay how logical we think about buying Like you do , not , even if you think like oh , but I like . Look at prices and like , maybe you do and you're brilliant , that's you perfect .
But like there's so much data that shows that if you're standing at the point of purchase , you're looking like , oh , this packaging is super shiny , I'm going to buy this package , this product . You're like that's not logical .
Exactly , Exactly . You know , right before this call , I was opening up a package . One of my clients from Australia sent me a couple bottles of wine and the first thing that I look at is the label . Anytime you're buying a bottle of wine , you're looking at oh , this looks like a cool label .
I think I might like to have this on my kitchen counter for the next few days or hours , depending on how you're feeling .
Good design and beautiful feels and needs to .
Exactly , it makes you feel good .
You like to look at it so or it shows that whenever someone's come visiting you like oh , she got good taste . She has the nice fancy bottles on the kitchen counter .
Exactly , and all of that has to do with social perception or feeling of belonging , or feeling of connection and being understood .
You should naturally glide it into the next layer of Maslow's pyramid precision . Feeling of accomplishment . Yes , like how others see you . Right , that's kind of like the next , I suppose the next reason why people buy things right . Because that's where branding comes in . Yes , where brands have ridiculous markup .
Because , oh , if I wear a Gucci bag , that tells XYZ something about me the carrier of a Gucci bag , or I drive a Tesla , that means you're dead . I'm kidding , but like you get it right .
I mean , that's why we buy expensive Apple products , because we can tell ourselves oh , we're fancy , we're like designs and like minimal chic , and we can tell that to others . Exactly , we recognize for it .
And so how does this come into play in your selling process , in your business ? So many creative entrepreneurs think well , if I charge too much , they're not going to buy from me . I need to lower my prices , I need to be lower than the competition who they're also getting bids from . No , that's not the case . You could charge and I've done this before .
You could charge three times as much as the competitor that they're considering . But if you make them feel good , if you make them feel like you see them , you understand their problems and you have a very real solution . Perfect example .
Earlier this morning , I was talking to another agency who actually wants us to do their content creation , and I'm talking to him about this exact thing that we're talking about now . What are you actually struggling with ? Because what we had thought it was and what we were talking about over email , it turned out that wasn't really it .
And he goes I'm the CEO , I'm supposed to be selling , and here I am rewriting content that my writers were supposed to write , but they're just not nailing it . And so I said wait a minute . This doesn't make sense for you to outsource your content creation . To me , it sounds like what your team needs is a brand messaging guide .
If they're not capturing the voice of your client and you're having to rewrite that because they're not nailing it , that's what you need . Don't triple your cost by outsourcing this . Just get one extra tool to bridge that gap between you and if it works , great .
If not , we can still talk about copyrighting .
Exactly , exactly .
¶ Building Trust, Providing Solutions in Business
But that's a situation where I listened to what was his problem and I , knowing about writing and knowing you know , having all of these years of experience , yeah , Been big into business and having seen like what is before and after copywriting , like before is brand strategy , afterwards is like sales , like marketing and sales like kind of like oh actually doesn't
make sense Exactly .
And if I tell him so , the alternative was he pays me like five figures per month to cover the writing for all of his clients , or he pays me a small one time for a figure fee to do the strategy , the brand voice guide and do a little bit of training with his team .
One time , all of a sudden , it's not about the money , it's not about me trying to get as much as I can . It's about me literally being the solution provider for his problem . He's going to save money .
And now I'm going to have a super happy , loyal partner client who comes to me every time he needs something that's in my area of expertise and that to me , that long game , that long relationship , is way more worth it than me selling someone they don't actually need just because of the price tag .
And now , in doing that and being honest with him , he trusts me .
Yes , amen , yeah , exactly Like . You've built so much trust currency that they're going to basically do what you want . Exactly Right .
Like I mean and it's , I see it so often , that mostly rooted prop I say in a scarcity mindset that you're like , oh okay , we're either doing it because we want to have the money it's easy money , we're just going to select the client . He's an idiot . Like , yeah , we're going to do that .
We're going to do it for three months until the client realizes it's not going to do anything . But or you're we're like , or the other way , like , oh , okay , I know what the client needs . I got to do that , but I'm actually not really skilled to do that or have no experience in doing it , but I'm just going to try anyway .
Like , whereas actually being here , like look , listen , I don't think it's me and my services you need at this point , this is what I suggest to you .
I mean , if they're not listening and they go hire another copywriter but then that's not going to be a good client , because they're seeing you as an order taker and not as a partner or a collaborator . Yes , and I mean the countless .
I mean I had it several times where people like oh , this is how much you charge for a brand identity . Yeah , okay , that's out of my price range , like fair enough , that's cool , whatever , like perfect . And then they I don't know , they got someone else to do it For cheaper .
Yeah , yeah , and like we , like I don't know and we , they got someone on Upward to do it .
So it wasn't as good .
Yeah . And then , I don't know , maybe three months later I get an email with like really weird , like illustrator file and be like , hey , like , could you like clean this up ? Or like you know , like , like no , I cannot , no , this is your mask . Go clean it up , go ask someone else , Right , I mean , well , it's what it's going to be .
But all the clients where I'm like , this is not what I do . But if you want , I can bring you in touch with the people who can do this , let's say , copywriters . I mean , yes , I write taglines with clients when we have a spark moment , but I'm not writing pages of copy , not me , not interested .
But if I know someone who would be great for the project , I will recommend them . Be like , hey , look , this is actually . You actually have to work to talk to Ray about it , that's , I'll set you up .
Those clients will be eternally grateful because there's a sea of copywriters and they got a starting point to work at and I don't know how I got countless of . I mean , I mostly grow for referrals , so I got so many people from like you know that one guy .
He , like you , told him that you're not a great fit and he really loved your honesty and then he told me about it , but now I really need a branding person , so I'm here Exactly .
Cool , awesome . Exactly , we all ultimately just want to have our needs met , our problems disappear and we want to feel good , not stressed out Meaning .
If you address what are people's problems , if you make them feel good and you genuinely connect with them because they're the type of person that you would want to work with , then you can charge whatever you want , whatever you need to really run your business and feel like you're being paid an equitable rate for the energy that you're putting out .
Everything flows from there . Selling is not about manipulating or persuading or convincing . It's about connecting and being that problem solver and being the solution provider for what people need .
Yeah , and I feel like selling has always been done right If both parties walk away with the feeling of this
¶ Reframing Sales
was a good deal . Yeah , yeah , right , like it doesn't matter . Like the example I had that big a whole moment once .
I was in an instant bull on the market and like I bought a scarf and I mean I'm not a super skilled like Turkish bazaar sales buyer so it probably ripped me off , but I mean I hassled a bit for the price , like how you should , and I was happy . It was a nice scarf . My mom was happy . I brought it to her Like .
So I walked away having made a good deal because I felt like , yeah , I love it , my mom's gonna love it , it was fun , I all good . He walked away with like oh , I made a lot of money , this is awesome , it was a win-win for both . That's how it should be . Both parties should walk away feeling this was good .
Right , a lot of people go into . If you're the one being sold to , you go into conversations feeling like this person might try to get one over on me , oh yeah , but if you always look out for am I getting what I need ? And a lot of that thought process is actually very emotional and intuitive . It's not logical .
If you go into those conversations thinking I need to get what I need and I'm happy for the other person to get what they need , then there is no buyer's remorse . There is no getting one over on each other . There is none of that ickiness that we tend to associate with selling . It's literally just two people helping each other out .
One has skills , the other has money . Win-win yeah .
I love it . I mean , it could be such a powerful reframe if you just like not call it a sales call or call it a needs call or a need mapping call . You just got to see and like , look , these are my needs , can you meet those ? Cool .
If they overlap on most instances , then the actual transaction , the actual sale , is kind of like logical consequence Because , hey , we're having all our needs met , why shouldn't we work together ? Sure , there can always be things . But if you really look at it like that , I think that's such a brilliant reframe of really liking and not as you've said .
It's not about , oh , I'm on this call to make all my clients' needs met . It's actually like your both needs have to map , overlap and come together Exactly , and I love this To your point .
you need to be able to . First of all , you need to know what your needs are , whether that's how .
You got to know yourself Right and that's .
Maybe it's how much you need to get paid for this job in order for it to be worth your while , or when you're gonna start , because if you start tomorrow , you're gonna be stressed out and it's gonna overlap with other stuff . Or maybe it's how few or how many meetings you have with the client , or when you need them to get feedback back to you the form .
do you have to be on a weekly call ? Can you do Voxer ?
Exactly .
Do you have times where you have to be available ? Do you ? I don't know . There are a gazillion ways of how you first have to be really clear about actually do .
I want this Right . And then clients tend to be kind of like kids where we think , oh , they don't want rules and structure , but actually they do . They need those guidelines to know how to behave . It's like if you get an invitation to a party and it doesn't tell you is this a beach party , a black tie ? You have no idea .
And so you're walking in and you're like , oh shit , I don't know how to do it , I'm gonna be so uncomfortable .
Oh shit , it was a coffee party , oh no .
Exactly . And you don't want to be uncomfortable . You want to know what the rules of engagement are , and so clients are the same way . So I always tell clients hey , I take meetings on Tuesdays and Thursdays . I'm off on Wednesdays . I do a lot of my creative work on the weekends , so you're gonna get deliverables from me on Monday .
I email you every Monday with a project status update . That's it , those are my rules of engagement . Oh , and then I require payment up front . That's it , those are my rules of engagement . And when they ask me , how do you work , how does this work ? That's exactly what I tell them . And then all of a sudden , it's not .
Oh shit , this chick is putting rules and demands on us . No , it's oh . Okay , now we know . Now things are clear . If we need to negotiate , we can , but nine times out of 10 , they don't . And they're just like okay , cool , sounds good to me .
Now I know , that's all they want is to know that's also my experience , yes , that's also 100% my experience , and people also . I mean , sometimes it's not working out because they need you to be available on Tuesdays , on Wednesdays , well then , that'd be it . So be it , fair enough , whatever right .
But most of the times people are like , oh yeah , cool , you're like ooh , and you had this big of like dawn and like , oh , my God , it's gonna be so . Ooh , exactly what are they gonna tell ? And you're projecting so much of your own insecurities onto this right . It's like no , they're actually . They want you to manage their expectations , exactly Right .
And then the other thing is versus kind of the uncertainty , you are the service provider .
They come for you to have a neat mat , they come for your expertise and honestly , I also I mean , if I would have like , if I hired like a coach or a copywriter or someone I'm actually expecting them to be like , you know , if you structure Not my client's job to do it for me . It's actually my responsibility to say these are the rules .
What happens if you go hire a consultant and you go . So how does this work ? And they go . Oh , we can just do it however you want . You feel like , okay , you've never done this before . Now . I don't trust you anymore . I'm gonna go find someone who has a clear process that can walk me through it , because I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm doing .
That's why I'm hiring you . So have the structure .
And I wanna reduce uncertainty , I wanna reduce stress , I wanna reduce friction . I just wanna have like this is what I want you to do ABCD .
Good and clients are coming to you wondering what do you need from us to get the result that we need you to create ? Whether that's designs , photography , writing , a website , whatever it is , they need you to tell them how do we get to the best result in your experience , so tell them , but that's also .
Yes , but that also again requires that you need to know in which settings can you provide the best results . Yes , right , and standing up for that , like when you're a website designer , you know , I'm not gonna start a damn thing until I have copy and I have like images .
Before that , I'm not gonna do a damn thing because otherwise I'm just gonna end up redoing it five times because it was a mess from the start , exactly . Or if you're a copywriter , if I don't have like brand guidelines or voice guidelines brand voice guidelines not gonna take on a project because it could be any .
I mean , if they can't breathe me , I cannot produce my best work , Exactly . So you gotta be honest to yourself . Be like okay , in which settings can I do my best and can actually deliver on the value I promised before ?
Exactly , and that's really all selling is is a matching up of means . If you understand what your client means and you do that initial research , you use that knowledge that you've gained in your copy in your marketing , in your client acquisition process , and then you understand what you need and you can speak to that .
Then , when you have that initial call , ideally 80% of their decision has already been made because you've done your marketing and branding job properly . But on that call , it's just a matching up of what do you need ? What problems are you struggling with ? Okay , here's what I can offer you , but in order to do that , I need XYZ .
Hmm , yes , yeah , I love that . Selling is just a matching of means , this , yeah , I really feel this is a powerful refrain . For anyone listening today , I was like I hate selling and I always feel so itchy , I don't know . I always rather clean out my kitchen and my fridge instead of doing selling . This is amazing , Ray .
Thank you so much for grabbing the knowledge bombs . So tell me , where can people find you online ? Where do you hang out ? How can people work with you ?
Yeah . So if you wanna learn more about what I do in the marketing world , you can go to Cornell contentmarketingcom , and if you want to just learn more about what I do as a business mentor , or if you wanna work with me in that capacity , you can go to Kyrenconsultingus . That's C-H-I-R-O-N consulting .
Perfect , and you also got a little something something we're gonna link it as well , of course for anyone who wants to build a freelance business , or probably really a good resource for anyone who's starting to think of freelance business or is very early in their journey .
Yes , please tell me about it I have the complete guide to building a successful freelance business , and this ranges I mean , this is something that you can literally have on your desktop , check it out every couple of months , where are you in the process ?
But it guides you from figuring out what is your service all the way through pricing , getting clients , marketing , selling , all the way up to things like having a self-funded 401K , a self-funded health insurance plan , all of that .
Wow , this is really , really cool . I know at least like a couple of courses charge a lot of money for this , so this is really cool . Thank you so much . Well , obviously , of course , I'm gonna link it all in the show notes .
So right before I let you go , I always have one last question for my guests , and this is gonna be really interesting to hear your answer . Uh-oh , what book are you currently reading ?
Oh . The Code of the Extraordinary Mind by Vishen Lakhyani .
I knew it's gonna be good . Okay , I am a huge Vishen Lakhyani fan .
He's the founder of Mindvalley . He started out doing meditation . I know Mindvalley , yes , and I mean he started out like living on a couch cushion in a corner of his friend's apartment in New York City . To now he has one of the most sought after places of employment and just this amazing company that just teaches people how to live healthier , happier lives .
And his book , the Code of the Extraordinary Mind , really helps you step out of this prescribed plan that society tends to put on us and helps you really figure out what do you actually want , what do you actually need to live a life that you feel ? What's between the shoulds . Yes , exactly , getting rid of all those shoulds .
I already love it . I really love it . I'm definitely gonna check this out . Wait , thank you . I feel like we gotta do this again sometime . It was such a blast having you here , thank you so much .
Yeah , likewise , this was fun , thank you . I love nerding out on all this stuff , thanks .
Thank you so much for listening to the CineGroot podcast . I hope you've enjoyed today's episode and that you can take something from it that feels right to you . I'd be so grateful if you could share the CineGroot podcast with others . As always , you can head over to cinegrootpodcastcom to check out all links and resources from today's episode .
Oh , and while you're there , don't forget to download my free email course Intuitive Branding Invitations to teach you how you can successfully tune into your own brand frequency and rediscover your brand's unique gifts , strength and talents . So thanks again . Talk soon .