Jennifer Walter (00:00:01) - Hi, and welcome to the Scenic Root Podcast. This is the show for building a successful and sustainable business on your terms. My name is Jen and I'm a rebranding sociologist with a soft spot for Ruber Pie. Each week I'll strive to expand your branding, business expertise, and mindset capacity. I'm so excited you're here. And now let's get into today's episode. Sandra Mikhail is an internationally known accredited practicing dietician, and the founder and director of nutrition, A to C by Sandra Micha. She holds a Bachelor of Nutrition and Diet Dietetics and a Master of Advanced Studies in Nutrition and health. And she is a member of the Dieticians Australia. She also holds a sports nutrition diploma by the International Olympics Committee, and with her experience spanning wool over a decade. Sandra's main areas of specialty art, digestive disease, sports, nutrition, eating disorders, and corporate health, working with local and multinational brands such as the Swiss Football Club, ftt. She's Mercedes Johnson, Johnson, and Adobe to just name a few. Sandra's passion for and work in gut Health created a movement of normalizing P talk, shedding light on topics that you might find yourself secretly Googling about as a mental health advocate. She, her workshops and articles on stress and nutrition have gained popularity internationally where she was personally invited by Arianna Huffington to contribute to her global platform thrive and has appeared on C N N Money to talk about nutrition and stress on the workplace. Sandra, welcome to Scenic Group podcast.
Sandra Mikhail (00:01:30) - Thank you very much for having,
Jennifer Walter (00:01:32) - Thank you so much for being here.
Sandra Mikhail (00:01:34) - Yay. Thank you
Jennifer Walter (00:01:36) - <laugh>. So, before we start our chat today, a full disclosure, I'm a client of Sandra's. She's helping me with, well, just feeling better, like through all of my like chronic health, uh, issues and journey. And she's quite the different poop lady. She, I don't know, her advice is totally different from mainstream diet, uh, suggestions and advice and diet talks. So I am super excited to have you here.
Sandra Mikhail (00:02:04) - Likewise. Thank you so much for entrusting me as well. <laugh>.
Jennifer Walter (00:02:08) - Yeah. So that people kind of get an idea of who you are. Can you briefly walk us through your story, like how you started, how you got to where you're today, what were the pivotal crossroads, the big moments for you?
Sandra Mikhail (00:02:23) - So, to cut a long story short, I mean, you called me the poo lady, <laugh> <laugh>. Tell me going what, uh, what do you do? So actually I'm a clinical dietician by trade. I have been a clinical dietician for way over a decade now. It all started off in Australia, so this is where I got all my qualifications. I went to university there. A little side note, I'm a very big mix in terms of cultural background. I was born in Australia cause people are probably going, I can't really figure out your accent. Uh, cause there's probably a little bit of Australian tourette in there. But I was born in Australia and I grew up in Dubai in the eighties and nineties. So ba basically, I grew up in the desert with water and you know, we grew up by the beach. It was beautiful. A simple life. So life was between Australia and Dubai for a very, very long time. Um, born in Australia in terms of cultural backgrounds, I am Greek Egyptian, uh, so I've got Greek Egyptian blood. Um, so you can imagine what it's like when it comes to family gatherings where it revolves literally around food all the time. Every time. Yeah.
Jennifer Walter (00:03:27) - Loud and food, God. Yeah. Yep.
Sandra Mikhail (00:03:30) - And I am the daughter of a gastroenterologist. So my dad is a gut specialist. I don't know, I dunno if I told you that.
Jennifer Walter (00:03:36) - No, I didn't know that. That makes total sense though. Ok. Right now, now I'm like, oh,
Sandra Mikhail (00:03:42) - <laugh>, people would think I was born in, you know, I was born into this. And um, the funny thing is, I, I remember a lot of these kind of childhood dinner table conversations growing up revolved, you know, my father on the phone mentioning things like rectal bleeding, anal fishers, peg, chew. And we'd be totally fine with that. That was like a normal dinner table talk.
Jennifer Walter (00:04:10) - Yeah, yeah. I mean that's, but right. Like that's good, right? Because there's so much stigma around like, I don't know, anything to do with your gut. Like
Sandra Mikhail (00:04:21) - Absolutely.
Jennifer Walter (00:04:21) - Pooping and just farts. It's just like mad
Sandra Mikhail (00:04:26) - Normal bodily, you know, physiological functions are Yeah. Taboo to talk about. So yeah, so basically that was just that as, as normal. And then just to see the horror on our friends' faces. And then, you know, my, a friend of mine turned around. She was like, did your father just say anal or rectum? I was like, yeah, yeah. Totally know. Just the
Jennifer Walter (00:04:45) - Biological description.
Sandra Mikhail (00:04:46) - Exactly. So yeah, so basically this whole side of, I'm gonna call it medicine, was extremely appealing and interesting. So that's what I kind of grew up with. Mm. Um, and then obviously this whole side of nutrition was also extremely appealing because a big part of my life did revolve around food. You know, we love food. Food is social, food is food, was was everything for us. But for me it was really interesting to see the relationship between medicine and food together. Mm. And how that works. So I decided to study nutrition and dietetics in Australia. And a lot of my background is just clinical work. So actually after graduating, I, um, worked one of my first jobs, um, was in a mental health center. So basically working with people with a variety of, let's say, um, mental health conditions like schizophrenia, eating disorders, um, bipolar, uh, disease, clinical depression and so on.
Sandra Mikhail (00:05:42) - And it was really interesting back then, I'm talking this through now way over a decade ago, how important nutrition Yeah. Was alongside the medical management of these conditions. Um, and then I just went on to working in, uh, different areas. So I was on the oncology ward in hospital, so working with cancer patients. And then I decided to move to Dubai on route to Europe. I decided to go back to Dubai <laugh>, um, just so you know, go, go save up some money. And my plan was to end up in Spain. Well that clearly didn't happen. I'm here Switzerland, 10 years later,
Jennifer Walter (00:06:17) - Thank God, <laugh>,
Sandra Mikhail (00:06:18) - Yes, I'm here. So a lot of clinical work throughout the years, um, specializing in different areas. But you know, this whole area of gut health was, was central to everything. So I worked in the intensive care unit, but also a lot of people post gut, you know, certain gut surgeries. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then I ended up, when was it? I was think it was 25. At 25 I was running a whole hospital department. A nutrition di Yeah, the nutrition dietetics hospital department. And actually this is when I had my first burnout at 25. And you know, being 25 people not say, don't take you seriously, but because you are considered young and you're so cute and small and tiny, running a big hospital department like whatcha are doing here?
Jennifer Walter (00:07:06) - Look at you. Do you wanna have aip? Yeah,
Sandra Mikhail (00:07:08) - Exactly. It was, no, it was very much like that. And I think it's just not about, you know, proving to them that I can do this, but it's probably proving to myself as well mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And I would say that moment kind of brought the end of any clinical worker working in hospitals. Cause I just could not do the politics of it all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And during that time, I actually started my whole side hustle. So this is where I started off as a blog, you know, started the blog, um, which is nutrition aid at now. So that's way over 10 years later. And I called it my Side Hustle. And the reason why I created that is because I was extremely frustrated with the amount of misinformation that was out there. So my whole purpose was to help people navigate this really complicated world of nutrition.
Sandra Mikhail (00:07:45) - And throughout, let's say months or year, the starting it, I started to get, you know, certain project requests to work on some campaigns or, you know, private one-to-one clients wanting to, um, have consults with me, et cetera. So that kind of opened up this whole field of, hmm, I could potentially do this. It's actually what I've always wanted. But you have to go through all the hardships and, and all the learnings to get to, to where I am today. So, fast forward here I am today, after all the clinical work and all this journey based in Switzerland, now the private practice. And we cater to clients literally all over the world from the uk, still the Middle East. We do have clients in Australia. And my main areas, obviously of, of specialty is digestive health and disease, um, sports at nutrition and eating disorders as well as corporate health. So based in Switzerland. So I'm not going anywhere now. <laugh>.
Jennifer Walter (00:08:42) - Yeah. The funny thing is also like, although we live really close in terms of like, people listen to these podcasts all over the world. Yeah. We have never met because we started working together during the pandemic, which <laugh>
Sandra Mikhail (00:08:52) - Exactly.
Jennifer Walter (00:08:53) - We have always been meeting online, which I dunno, it's funny. But anyway, like we, we started talking about like also how, like you said, like we have to go through all the hardships to kind of like figure out what we wanna do with our businesses, how we want to shape them. And it, we learn that we have to kind of like trust more on what we want instead of following someone else's blueprint.
Sandra Mikhail (00:09:20) - Absolutely.
Jennifer Walter (00:09:21) - And really like how we can lead with our, with our knowing or with our God, right? Like how we can make it feel like good for us. I've been through that myself. And you probably can relate as with the burnout, right? Like when you push through things you believe you should do, but you're not really like, nah, do I really wanna do this? There is no joy in it whatsoever. You feel like you're pushing through, I'm really wanna use this, this conversation to kinda like talk to you about like physiological effects, like of us pushing through, right? Like the effect on our body, on our God and our mind.
Sandra Mikhail (00:10:02) - Yeah. So I, I, I think I like to use myself as an example because a have had, let's say two burnouts and the first one started at 25. So at 25, this is where I got diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome ibs. Yeah. And for those who don't know what IBS is, IBS is, or irritable bowel syndrome is simply a, it's, um, it's a syndrome. So it's a collection of symptoms that simply described or are result of a glitch that occurs between how your mind and your gut communicate mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So back in the day, or a lot of people refer to IBS as a functional gut disorder, but now we renamed this whole group of conditions to disorders of the gut-brain axis or disorders of how your gut and your brain communicate back in the day. The reason why they've actually renamed this is because people used to just throw the diagnosis of I vs. Left, right, and center. And it kind of undermined the,
Jennifer Walter (00:10:59) - Okay. So when there was nothing else, it was just ibs. Exactly.
Sandra Mikhail (00:11:02) - Ok. But it also undermined the seriousness of it because people would, you know, a doctor would just say it's all in your head. You actually, yes, it's all in my head, but what do I do? What do I do
Jennifer Walter (00:11:12) - About it? Yeah. Be because like you have, I mean I know it, I mean I have IBS too. Like you have pretty, like real symptoms. Symptoms, not just your head.
Sandra Mikhail (00:11:21) - So pushing through. So during that period, my biggest symptoms were um, obviously my gut, uh, I was going to the lose. So I was, uh, having diarrhea about 10 to 12 times a day, running back and forth to low. It impacted quality, quality of life. I was scared of eating out. Um, I had sleep issues, lack of energy. It was just go, go, go. So my, my day would start at seven o'clock in the morning, um, cuz he had to make it for around at seven 30 at the hospital. And then sometimes my day just had no end. And I would finish by nine o'clock at night. And by the time I get back home, I'm absolutely exhausted. And the last thing I wanna do is I just needed to sleep, but then I would find it very difficult to fall back asleep. Mm. So this basically continued for about six months where we're just trying to figure out, I mean, to come to that diagnosis of ibs, you have to rule out all the nasties or like rule out more serious conditions, which makes sense.
Sandra Mikhail (00:12:16) - Absolutely. So yeah, we've had to go through these whole, you know, bunch of tests and so on. And then when they just could not find anything and have done the scopes, the endoscopies. I remember going to my dad at one point, he was like, look, you're a dietician. Figure yourself out. You know, you can, you, you know, you can find the answers and yeah, I did. So doing a lot of research and, and, and not, again, it, it's, we're still scratch. I'm not gonna say we're still scratching the surface, but I think we're still, we're only starting to see how the mind or how powerful the mind is when it comes to the physiological impact things like stress would have on our body. Yeah. So stress is one of the triggers of ibs. Um, and also what's really interesting to see is a lot of people with, with depression or anxiety, IBS is, you know, tends to happen or occur in parallel to that too.
Sandra Mikhail (00:13:10) - So there's a huge, huge link between, um, link between, you know, the gut and the mind there using IBS as an example. Now when it comes to dealing with things like ibs, um, addressing the mind pillar is pivotal, and this is what I had to do. So I started, you know, I've dealt with nutrition and I figured out what my triggers were. I was able to, you know, banish the fear of eating out. I was able to refine my balance again and not have to run to the Lew 10 to 12 times a day when it came to movement. I figured out forms of movement that I enjoyed, and we'll also talk about maybe movement down the line, but also I, I don't call it exercise anymore. Mm-hmm. And then the sleep, um, sleep was also, was, was very important. But I was maybe back then at 25, you know, you're not, you don't need as much sleep <laugh>, you don't, you need as much and you can really survive on three to four hours of totally fine.
Sandra Mikhail (00:14:05) - Yeah. Safe. But even when it came to the mind, I had to address that in different forms of therapy, et cetera. So that combination of things, everything started to kind of look really, really well and promising. And then fast forward to 2018, I had another burnout and well, it, it manifested very differently where I started having panic attacks. Oh. Now the reason why I'm also mentioning this is because this whole thing of pushing through, and even I was gonna say the definition of what success is, maybe how soci, how we've been programmed to define what success is for us when it comes to whether it's your self-employed or business owner, it's very damaging. I mean, here I am two, you know, two burnouts later. Yeah. So 2018, I had my son in 2016. And the reason why I say these are pivotal moments, because thousand 16 is when I decided to have my own private practice. Mm-hmm. So I was three months pregnant when I actually opened up my practice here in Switzerland, thinking about it. Then I'm like, what the hell were we thinking?
Jennifer Walter (00:15:10) - Yeah. I, yeah, same. I was kinda like restructuring my business and I joined a business mastermind while I was pregnant. And then when I gave birth and I was just like, yeah, I don't know now. It really didn't. Now looking back, that was smart idea, <laugh>. No,
Sandra Mikhail (00:15:29) - But you know what, and this is maybe when, when it comes to like, is there actually a right time, you know, is, is there, you know, obviously it has to be strategic and somehow calculated. But yeah, so, so three months pregnant, starting off my own practice. So when Phoenix was born, I'm not gonna say there was a sense of urgency to get back into it, but there, there was, I just gave birth to two things. You know, my son, but also my, my baby or my bi I say my business, but a physical practice that he needs to build up. So there was this urgency to get back into things. And the kind of person that I was, I'm gonna say not I am, but I was, was this perfectionist or this insatiable thirst to pursue different things. I always needed to, to feel busy
Jennifer Walter (00:16:10) - And high achieving for
Sandra Mikhail (00:16:11) - Sure very high. Again, it is a double-edged sword, but yes, that was a recipe for disaster, I would say because come 2018, so Phoenix was too, not only did I, you know, try to grow the practice, but also I decided to go back to studying because why not? You know? So I role
Jennifer Walter (00:16:29) - Sure, you're a new mom, you have loads of time.
Sandra Mikhail (00:16:31) - Exactly. So I decided to pursue another degree, uh, which was a sports nutrition, um, as part of the International Olympic Committees, um, program. And then I, I didn't realize that I was literally, I was pushed over. I was, you know, trying to keep my head above water. So it all started to manifest in panic attacks. And I've never experienced that before. I actually thought it was my asthma playing up and I went from doctor to doctor, you know, trying to figure out, hold on, what is going on? Uh, went even for a, how do you say, uh, I went and even saw a pulmonologist. So just to check, is it actually my asthma? Long story short, they were like, you're totally fine, you're fine. It's just, it's just stress. It's probably you're under stress. I was like, this is, you know, you're undermine this whole thing. It's
Jennifer Walter (00:17:23) - Not
Sandra Mikhail (00:17:23) - Just
Jennifer Walter (00:17:24) - Stress. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno how many times I heard like, just do some yoga. Well, no, but no
Sandra Mikhail (00:17:30) - <laugh> no, that hasn't. So, I mean, again, luckily because I was very well connected when it came to therapists, and because I've experienced it in the, in the past, I didn't delay things and I took action. I took a step back from work, I went back into therapy and I was in therapy. We, you know, weekly therapy sessions, and I'm still in therapy, let's say four or five years later. And it was one of the best things that has that I've done. And I think through therapy, I started to redefine what success means to me through therapy. I really became extremely connected to my own body cues. I think what tends to happen with this whole push through or, you know, soldier on mentality, is that we become completely disconnected. And, you know, going back to the physiological side of things, these are real examples of how stress or chronic stress or extreme stress and anxiety can just push us over the edge and manifest in all these different symptoms. Whether your gut becomes affected, whether your breathing becomes affected mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think, you know, if we have to look at the physiology of it all, the biology of it all, this is the, you know, when, when part of your nervous system, this fight or flight response is constantly on edge, constantly activated back in the day, we always use the exact, you know, we used to use, use the example that this system is activated when we're trying to run away from any Yeah.
Jennifer Walter (00:18:55) - There's a bear wrong. Exactly.
Sandra Mikhail (00:18:57) - But for us, this becomes triggered when it comes to day to day things like receiving certain emails or certain conversations that you have on
Jennifer Walter (00:19:05) - Yeah. Or, or you have like your phone bleeping the entire time and you see like, oh, what's up from ugh email from, ugh, social media. Ugh. Yeah.
Sandra Mikhail (00:19:15) - So I remember reading somewhere that we're actually biologically not made for our current environment, for our current society. We're we, our bodies are processing so much information mm-hmm. <affirmative> day in and day out. So the biggest learnings was, um, were to start listening, I think, to be very much connected. You know, understanding my red flags. So I actually knew what my red flags were. I became way more connected. But this is where therapy came in. I was able to create all these tools and learn, I mean, learn all these tools and skills to be, um, very mindful of when I'm able to pursue certain things. And when I'm able to kind of step back,
Jennifer Walter (00:19:55) - How do red flags show up for you?
Sandra Mikhail (00:19:57) - Stomach <laugh>. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Jennifer Walter (00:20:00) - Yeah.
Sandra Mikhail (00:20:00) - Stomach migraines, tension headaches, not being able to sleep these, as I said, that gut feeling mm-hmm. When I know something's not right. Mm-hmm. Yes. I'm, I'm very more sensitive to that. I know that I retain a lot of stress and my jaws, for example, I, yeah, I, you know, the jaw, you know, is, is a tense, a relaxed tension headache. So my neck and my shoulder is, are they too scrunched up closer to my ears, or are they, you know, nice and low? And then one thing that I had to put into practice and then actually has helped not only myself, but almost all my clients suffering with gut problems is belly breathing. Something so simple. We call it diaphragmatic breathing. But this is actually one of the easiest ways to just reconnect that the whole kind of gut, um, mind connection mm-hmm. Is through belly breathing. Because even the science shows that that can reduce your heart rate, that can reduce blood pressure.
Jennifer Walter (00:20:53) - Yeah. It just starts regulating your entire nervous system.
Sandra Mikhail (00:20:56) - Exactly. And this is also, you know, it taps into the other part, you know, the other we call the parasympathetic nervous system, or the para is, is your rest and digest. So how to activate that even more so just the act of breathing or belly breathing, which we tend to forget as adults, especially in this current society, which is extremely fast paced and soldiering on and pushing through is, is the cornerstone. We become shallow breathers. So I think for me, what was one of these pivotal moments after the second burnout is realizing or reassessing, okay, what, what does success look like for me? Or how do I want to run my business? And I didn't realize it actually, it's not about pushing through or pursuing a, taking a step back. So I, you know, by taking a step back and being strategic with my time and my energy, and I don't have to be crazy busy to be successful, this is where success happened.
Jennifer Walter (00:21:49) - It's actually quite the opposite. Right?
Sandra Mikhail (00:21:51) - Absolutely.
Jennifer Walter (00:21:52) - But it's interesting that that's mostly because most of us are still employed or have ex or had have past experience of being employed where you're getting paid for your time. Yeah. So we have this link of, oh, I get paid for my hours and not really for the value I create, or the output or whatever, just for 60 minutes, 42 hours, whatever. So it's kind of like, the more we, so, because we know, we know that we kinda like, oh, our head goes, oh, okay. So the more I work, the more I earn.
Sandra Mikhail (00:22:26) - It doesn't go. But even if you, if you are, even if you are employed, I mean, one thing that we've seen, especially with the pandemic, is there was, people found it very difficult to create boundaries, creating boundaries when it came to this whole, you know, so-called work life balance. I mean, you're working from home
Jennifer Walter (00:22:43) - Well, what's better?
Sandra Mikhail (00:22:43) - Your, your life exactly. Your life and your work just merged into one.
Jennifer Walter (00:22:49) - Yeah. I always refer to work life blend, because it's balancing, I dunno, it's,
Sandra Mikhail (00:22:54) - I, I don't, uh, to be honest with you, again, even this whole work, work-life balance, I'm not gonna say it's a delusion, but I feel like you need to read.
Jennifer Walter (00:23:02) - It's a mi rush. You
Sandra Mikhail (00:23:03) - Really, you need to redefine what balance means to you, depending on what you are currently going through in life and work,
Jennifer Walter (00:23:10) - What's the season you're in and
Sandra Mikhail (00:23:12) - Exactly. Um, and this is another thing that I've learned as well. So it's, it, you know, this whole pursuit of work life balance and this whole also, another thing that society sort of pounds into us is can do you want, you know, having it all, can you have it all? And maybe that was also my downfall is wanting it all, but it was like, you know what, no, I don't have to do it all, and I'm not, I don't plan, I don't want to do it all anymore.
Jennifer Walter (00:23:34) - And, and actually like, do you actually wanna have it all? Like, that's the thing, right? Like, do you actually wanna have it all? Or is, or is it like, I'm actually quite happy with the good enough. Yeah. And for, for this season, that's good enough.
Sandra Mikhail (00:23:47) - Exactly.
Jennifer Walter (00:23:48) - And maybe, I don't know, when the kids are older or when you feel better physically, whatever, you can reevaluate your goals and what, and your desires and be like, yeah, actually I, I, now I feel like I wanna try for, for something bigger.
Sandra Mikhail (00:24:02) - Exactly. I, I personally now believe that you can have it all, but not all at the same time. Mm. So you just need to be strategic again, and this is, this is why I always say I'm very strategic with my time, because people ask me like, how do you do it all? I was like, no, you know what? I don't do it all. Yeah.
Jennifer Walter (00:24:18) - So you just also just finished a book manuscript. So I'm like, and you have two little kids. So I'm like, well Sandra, how do you do it all?
Sandra Mikhail (00:24:25) - It's asking for help. I was gonna say, and I'm probably privileged from that perspective, is just having the help and support around knowing what to delegate and when to delegate because of, you know, in the past I just wanted to do it all. And I knew that was impossible and that, that was my,
Jennifer Walter (00:24:40) - Yeah. It, which I wanna say being able to delegate.
Sandra Mikhail (00:24:44) - No. And I had to learn, again, I had to learn
Jennifer Walter (00:24:47) - <laugh>. It doesn't come easy to people who've been conditioned as women, right? Like, we're like, oh, I have to do it my own. I have to soldier on
Sandra Mikhail (00:24:55) - Being the perfect mom, being the perfect partner, being a perfect business owner, being, and, and, and again, that was my downfall. And I learned, you know, I am perfectly imperfect and that's good enough. But going back to this whole wanting it all, as I said, am I, you know, if I had to speak about my own personal experiences when it comes to, let's say this, this specific business, my taking off all the boxes that I've set, set myself to achieve. Absolutely. But it's been a journey. It's definitely been a journey. It's definitely come at certain expenses. Again, you do learn the hard way.
Jennifer Walter (00:25:28) - Yeah. That's always, sometimes say the Sni group hit me over the head repeatedly, <laugh>,
Sandra Mikhail (00:25:33) - Like,
Jennifer Walter (00:25:35) - Slow down God damnit woman. Yeah.
Sandra Mikhail (00:25:37) - How else awesome. Are you gonna learn? I
Jennifer Walter (00:25:39) - Don't know. I, I, I really admire, I mean, I know one or two blessed people who just, I don't know, have already have, even when there were 20, I know them for a long time. Even then they had this snic group, let's call it scenic root approach. They were just blessed with that wisdom. Yeah. I'm like, that's amazing. And then the big majority of us, we have to learn not once, maybe twice,
Sandra Mikhail (00:26:06) - Three times.
Jennifer Walter (00:26:07) - Three times. But didn't burn out three times though.
Sandra Mikhail (00:26:11) - No, it was two. But I, I think as I said, what I'm learning, maybe the third time, and maybe it's, it's probably this year was another hard learning is taking on too much. But I am that type of person. I, I think I, I'm not gonna say my mind needs to constantly be stimulated, but when is it enough? I think I'm, I'm learning that it, it's okay. You know, it's okay to do two things. It's okay. And that's it. That is good enough. And I'm, I'm learning that. But I would say in terms of burnouts, yes. Yep. That, that was luckily, you know, a a, a hard lesson learned. But I'm very more intuitive when it comes to what works for me, what works for my
Jennifer Walter (00:26:55) - Business. When the telltale signs of like, Ooh, okay.
Sandra Mikhail (00:26:57) - Absolutely.
Jennifer Walter (00:26:58) - Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember my, I burned out at, I dunno, what was it, 27 or so, I think 28, give or take. And I didn't, it, it's, it's, I dunno, it's easier after you've experienced one burnout because you are kinda like, ooh, telltale signs. Because I remember the first time, the first burnout, I was, I didn't know I was burning out or how bad it was until like, ev like, everything kind of like imploded and just like, oh, okay. It, okay. I really, uh Oh, okay. Bad, bad, bad, bad.
Sandra Mikhail (00:27:37) - Yeah.
Jennifer Walter (00:27:38) - So there's actually a lot to learn also from those times where we feel deeply discouraged and afraid and, and anxious and, and shame also, right? Because there's always so much shame attached to burnout. Like, oh, you're not, you're not strong enough. You're not meant for this, whatever. Right? Like,
Sandra Mikhail (00:27:58) - And if it's a sign of weakness, basically. But actually I think it's, well, one thing I, I think again, at the end of the day, I mean, anyone recovering from a burnout and like, not that I wanna label it as, as a burnout, because also now that whole term burnout is being used so loosely and I know it is becoming, which is great. I mean, people are raising awareness about it. But yes, we don't even have a strict medical definition for it. I think, as I said, it, it's just learning, learning your warning signs. And what I wanted to say, its when it comes to recovering from a burnout, what you try to work towards is stress, resilience. You're not going to take the stress out of your life. There's no <laugh>. You know, we, we wish we could, but this is not reality.
Jennifer Walter (00:28:46) - Yeah. But ultimate there are things that you cannot control. Right? Exactly.
Sandra Mikhail (00:28:49) - Exactly.
Jennifer Walter (00:28:50) - Mean it can go everything even well, and then, I dunno, you get a call from, from daycare that you have to pick up your kid. Like, I dunno, it, there's always something, right? It's how do you become more stress, stress resilient.
Sandra Mikhail (00:29:00) - Exactly. It's how do you cope? And I feel like this whole journey towards recovery is really about learning how to cope. And that's the same thing when we're looking at, from a, you know, from, from a nutritional or lifestyle perspective as well. The same things apply. You know, for me, I always, and you would know this, I always ask my clients to reflect about what they want their four pillars to look like. You know, mind, movement, nutrition, and sleep. Because I strongly feel that they're all interconnected. If one is off, it's a domino effect. All the other three are going to be all mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So how do you build a template for your life where somehow all these war in sync and you need to start working towards the template that you create for yourself based on this four pillar approach. And for me, actually, this is what I'm not gonna say, keeps me sane, but keeps me more balanced or helps me understand, okay, which pillar needs a little bit more work mm-hmm. <affirmative> this time around. Yeah.
Jennifer Walter (00:29:54) - It, it just helps you, I dunno, classify and structure and be like, oh, actually, ooh, maybe, hmm. Have I been paying attention to sleeping or eating or stimulation, joy, fun play.
Sandra Mikhail (00:30:07) - So I, I started to, you know, and another thing that also was extremely important as part, you know, part of this whole journey is, is having more fun in our lives. I think again, it's just mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. Yes. Which is,
Jennifer Walter (00:30:21) - What was the last fun thing you did?
Sandra Mikhail (00:30:23) - The last fun thing I did. Gosh, <laugh>. I know this is really bad. Gotcha. But no, so, so one of the, one of the things that I set for myself this year to do is fun. And for me fun means dancing. And I went to, what was it, the last music festival that was here, I think it was Open Air <laugh>.
Jennifer Walter (00:30:48) - I was like, that's too long ago. Something
Sandra Mikhail (00:30:54) - Full disclosure, I am sleep deprived because it's hard. My kids have been sick the last few, you know, the last few days. I know it's hard. But again, it's even just finding fun in your day-to-day life. So, I mean, fun, the last fun thing we did was last night we were just dancing all over the house and you know, after dinner, my friend and my daughter were just running around and just being silly and just blasting the music. And it's, I feel like doing more of these little things is what we should focus on rather than aim for big fun. Like, you know, going to a music festival. I think
Jennifer Walter (00:31:27) - Also the clients I work with, they're kind of like always waiting for their e trade love moment, I call it. Right? Like, the time when I have like six months of an empty schedule and I do the whole kinda like eat, pray, laughing. And I'm like, that's awesome. But like, when, when's that gonna happen? Like when the kids sleep house, like
Sandra Mikhail (00:31:47) - When they're 18.
Jennifer Walter (00:31:48) - Yeah, exactly. So like, how does eat, pray, love look like in your everyday life in your schedule? And it's not, I don't know, you deserve more time than, I dunno, the times when you sit in, I dunno, you sit in a trauma in the car when you just, I dunno, crying because you just dropped your kids off or you're sitting on the toilet for longer because it's your
Sandra Mikhail (00:32:10) - Time. <laugh>. Which, which is funny because I, again, a lot of my clients as well mean, I always tell them, no, don't be on the loop for more than five to 10 minutes max. We're
Jennifer Walter (00:32:17) - Likes it's, but it's actually the time I have to myself. It's, I know, I know know it's not good for, I know for your entire God, for hemorrhoids, for everything, but
Sandra Mikhail (00:32:29) - It's like, it's the only meantime. It's, it's, its again, I mean
Jennifer Walter (00:32:34) - I once saw this as meme, um, you know, you are a parent when, and it was just a picture of like two naked, um, legs with like these red elbow
Sandra Mikhail (00:32:43) - Marks, <laugh>, I've had those.
Jennifer Walter (00:32:45) - And I'm like, got it. Yep. You're, you know, you're a parent because that means you have been sitting on the l on your phone for 15 minutes.
Sandra Mikhail (00:32:52) - We've all them there. And this, this just goes to going back, you know, it's, it's really not about these grand gestures that find those little things in your day to day. Exactly. I know it's easier said than done, but this is also something, it's, it's not impossible. I mean, today what I set myself, you know, my happy things to do or fun things to do will be to, you know, walk. And, you know, I I, I've got a little, a longer break today, so I just wanna go for a quick call. Cause the weather's gonna be nice. I wanna buy myself some flowers and I wanna read a chapter in one. Lovely. So again, it's these three, again, three is my magic number, but I, I always say send three things in your day. Four, you know, one can be for yourself, one can, you know if, if people wanna go by to-do list, but this is another thing, again, let's not talk about to-do lists because they can also trigger your fight or flight response, but Oh
Jennifer Walter (00:33:40) - Yeah, yeah,
Sandra Mikhail (00:33:41) - Yeah. Set three things a day
Jennifer Walter (00:33:43) - That are just for the sake of it. Exactly. And not for, oh, I do this so that, and
Sandra Mikhail (00:33:49) - They don't have to be grand. They just need to be,
Jennifer Walter (00:33:51) - Oh God, no.
Sandra Mikhail (00:33:52) - You need tiny things, tiny that make you happy. <laugh>.
Jennifer Walter (00:33:56) - Yeah. It's, it's so true. Right? Like, and even like when you do bigger things, like I just had, like as an example, friend and I, we ordered tickets, um, to see Lizzo, uh, in Zurich next year she's come to play. So a hundred percent that bitch that goes to c Lizzo. And like, and today I got a confirmation from the postal service that the tickets have been shipped. And I'm like, Ooh. Kinda like all that, it reminded me of like how we did an ipro, the dance party because we ordered the tickets and it's just like kind like re it was a kind of like a little glimmer that reignited and reminded me of the Cho. So it can also be those little things being mindful of that.
Sandra Mikhail (00:34:37) - But again, we're so focused on the bigger things we're completely, again, it is just that disconnect of do these little things count or we undermine all these little things.
Jennifer Walter (00:34:46) - Yeah. And I mean, I get it, right? Like there's so much like economical theory, psychological theory of rather have one good thing now than two good things later, <laugh> or, so how do we navigate this, like our desire or our need for instant gratification that has been cultivated through also through our media use for sure.
Sandra Mikhail (00:35:14) - Yeah.
Jennifer Walter (00:35:15) - How do we navigate our, like, fabricated design that's called fabricated desire for immediate gratification and doing teeny tiny steps that we know will accumulate for our long-term benefit. How do we navigate this?
Sandra Mikhail (00:35:30) - Oh, I don't have the answer. Cause I'm still learning <laugh>.
Jennifer Walter (00:35:35) - Well, I mean, I also don't know, but we can talk about this, right? Like, because it, I mean, I know it for myself. It's so hard that you're like, this makes me feel good now, but I know it might not be good for good for my, my health, my wellbeing, whatever. But that's tomorrow. Or you know, week or in a month or whenever I feel the consequences of the actions I took today. Do we shift our mindset?
Sandra Mikhail (00:36:04) - Like it, it's definitely gonna be a combination of different things. I think mindset, mindset is definitely, you know, a big part of it. But also just understanding, maybe placing a focus on the consequences even more so like even, you know, you know, this is going to be good for this specific moment, but it is not gonna be good for later. Or if it's just a one-off, fine, not overthinking. But I think it just comes down to looking at what sort of habits that provides you with this instant gratification that's short-lived, weighing up the pros and cons of it. If it's a habit that you, or if it's something that you end up doing a bit more frequently, that might have you say more negative con I, again, I don't, I really don't like to use that term negative so much, but
Jennifer Walter (00:36:53) - Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Sandra Mikhail (00:36:54) - That is not conducive to your health in the long run. Mental health being a part of it too. Again, I mean, if, if you wanna look at, again, as a dietician, one of the easiest examples to use is comfort eating or emotional eating. And this is, you know, there is a fine line when it, or I would say, you know, comfort eating or emotional eating is a double-edged sword because of course certain foods are going to be comforting and, and, and nostalgic and, and who doesn't, you know, like a specific meal that reminds exactly comfort. Yeah. But if that is your only way to cope, for example, if that is your, your learned habit, if it's your only way to cope with that, or your only way to cope with comfort or cope with stress or cope with sadness or whatever it's that you're experiencing, then it becomes problematic again. I don't know if that that answers the example that creates that resemblance to what we wanna talk about. But as I said, when it,
Jennifer Walter (00:37:49) - No, I do, I do feel, I, I do think so, right? Because it's always kind of like shifting the question to why, right? Like, why do I need that? Like why do I need a comfort food today? Or even in business, why do I feel I need, uh, to have Instagram? Why do I feel I need to have a certain amount of revenue? Like, it's always kind of like trying to, and that's really hard to do on your own. So that's why it's always kind of like helpful to have someone on the outside
Sandra Mikhail (00:38:22) - Absolutely.
Jennifer Walter (00:38:22) - Reflecting it with you. Yeah. But actually looking at, hey, why am I doing the things right? And coming from a like a place of, I try my best. I always do the best I can. And so it's also a thing of like, okay, I had the comfort food. It's okay, I'm fine. Yeah. And not crapping on yourself for
Sandra Mikhail (00:38:45) - It. No, but, but but also, again, that takes skill and that takes practice and support Yes. From other people. Yes. Purely. Cause I don't want, for example, my clients to invest so much energy. I'm gonna say wasted on this feelings of guilt and shame that comes with these certain actions. I would say. Right. It happened, you know, keep calm and carry
Jennifer Walter (00:39:03) - On. There's nothing motivating and shame or guilt. Like if that would work, there would be no diet industry. Exactly. Cause we would all be like skinny.
Sandra Mikhail (00:39:10) - It doesn't work. It doesn't work at all. I think it's
Jennifer Walter (00:39:11) - Really a good learning to actually, if you start, you're feeling unhappy with certain things that manifest in your life, whether that be poor sleep, poor diet, or headache or, or digestion problems, or not enough revenue in your business or whatever it is. Right? Like looking at, okay, what do I do? Why do I do it? And can I do things
Sandra Mikhail (00:39:35) - To do? Absolutely. I think that's a very good way to put
Jennifer Walter (00:39:37) - It. And can I move forward without crapping on myself? And I mean, that's universal, right? It's diet, it's
Sandra Mikhail (00:39:42) - Business. But you know what? I feel like you need support, need people around you. So I, again, yes, I have my business coach or a mentor. She has witnessed, you know, she's been with me throughout my whole career. She's the one that had, you know, I had my first job with her and she's been with me throughout this whole process. I have my therapist, I have my, you know, close set of friends or I would say, you know, it's cliche as it sounds, I have my tribe who are more or less in that same boat. Yeah. That truly understands. Yes. These, you know, the, the, the hardships that I would go through, whether it's it's a business owner or as a mom or how to, I hate that the whole juggle, but how to juggle things or how to navigate this whole area or trying to, you know, if I, you know, how do I redefine what balance means to me right now? Cause I just cannot see it. Yeah. Um, I think this is also very important to Yes. To have, if you do want to work towards, let's say, defining what success means to you from a professional perspective and a personal perspective as well.
Jennifer Walter (00:40:43) - 100% agree. So then tell me if people would like to have your support, how can they do that? Where can, if people find you online?
Sandra Mikhail (00:40:51) - Well, they can find me, uh, by the website <laugh>. I was gonna say, just Google me,
Jennifer Walter (00:40:57) - I'm,
Sandra Mikhail (00:40:58) - I'm Google, I'm famous. Well, let's wait till the book comes out. But, so I'm reachable on Instagram. Um, it's nutrition az by Sandra Kel. The website is nutrition az com. Um, so you can reach us there. And just a little story. I actually hate the name Nutrition AZ speaking about branding, but it's something that stuck. It was the name of the blog. So that was over 10 years ago now. 11 or 12 years ago. It's 12 years ago now. Yeah. And the whole, the name came about wanting to cover everything when it comes, you know, from from A to Z. Yeah, exactly. Listen, it
Jennifer Walter (00:41:34) - Was no buzzword
Sandra Mikhail (00:41:36) - About that word, but covering A to Z, you know, A to Z all aspects of nutrition and 12 years. So I'm still stuck with that name because this is how people know me by, or this is how brands been identified. But yeah, so it's nutrition A to Z and I am based here in Zurich, Switzerland. But you can reach out. I don't bite. I am happy to help you out, especially when it comes to poo talk. I definitely, you know, as people say, I make p talk chic, that's like the, the cat's phrase,
Jennifer Walter (00:42:06) - <laugh>, very, very on style <laugh>. Yeah. And you are also offering, for everyone listening, you also offer 10% discount on your top selling programs. We're gonna link them in the show notes. So that's a really good way of like, doing something different if you feel confident.
Sandra Mikhail (00:42:28) - Absolutely. And I mean, with these two programs, well one, I, I know you joined 1, 1, 1 is really about working with your body and not against it, under understanding what works for you. Um, and creating, you know? Yes. Even when it comes to this whole world of digestive health and so on, it is so confusing and it is a rabbit hole of misinformation.
Jennifer Walter (00:42:50) - Yes, yes. Especially on TikTok.
Sandra Mikhail (00:42:53) - I'm not, I'm not on TikTok and I don't plan to be, so I'm
Jennifer Walter (00:42:55) - No, I, I actually, I actually always said I'm too old for TikTok, but I must say I find it quite, now that Im been on it for a while, the algorithm kind of like gets what I like. I actually do really, I don't know, dare I say it, I actually don't show TikTok.
Sandra Mikhail (00:43:11) - I, I'm, I don't even wanna go there. I know, I mean, I'm still struggling with Instagram. I have this love hate relationship.
Jennifer Walter (00:43:16) - The, the start was bad. The
Sandra Mikhail (00:43:18) - Start was, I have a love hate. Really,
Jennifer Walter (00:43:19) - It was giving me all these things into my feed where I'm like, no, no, no. Dear God, no <laugh>. But hey, I almost have one last question, um, because I'm curious and always need, um, new material. What book are you currently reading?
Sandra Mikhail (00:43:35) - I am a sucker for all things Light, mushy and lovey-dovey novels. So right now I'm reading, ah,
Jennifer Walter (00:43:41) - There's a Space, there's always a Space for Dad
Sandra Mikhail (00:43:44) - <laugh>, uh, reading The Return by Nicholas Sparks. Ok,
Jennifer Walter (00:43:49) - Yeah. That's, that's checks, right?
Sandra Mikhail (00:43:51) - He's a writer of The Notebook. But do you know what? But even when it comes to that, I think what's really important is when even when it comes to reading, I need something light, fluffy, and fun and easy to read.
Jennifer Walter (00:44:01) - Yeah. And it should be something warm, funny, uplifting, I dunno. Something light and fun. And
Sandra Mikhail (00:44:07) - So there you go. That's what I'm reading now, <laugh>.
Jennifer Walter (00:44:10) - Very good. Very good. I also just saw that Chenny Colgan has a new book at the Christmas books shop, so I know what I'm gonna order next. <laugh>.
Sandra Mikhail (00:44:18) - Amazing.
Jennifer Walter (00:44:19) - Oh, it's actually out today on 27th of October.
Sandra Mikhail (00:44:23) - There you go.
Jennifer Walter (00:44:24) - There you go.
Sandra Mikhail (00:44:25) - Yes.
Jennifer Walter (00:44:26) - Hey, Sandra, thank you so much for joining me on the Snic Group podcast. It has been a blast. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's been fun. Yay. Thank you so much for listening to the CNI Group podcast. I hope you've enjoyed today's episode and that you can take something from it that feels bright to you. I'd be so grateful if you could share the CNI Group podcast with others. Head over to cgroup podcast.com to check out all links and resources from today's episode. Oh, and while you're there, don't forget to download my free email course, intuitive branding invitation to teach you how you can successfully tune into your own brand frequency and rediscover your brand's unique gifts, strength, and talents. So thanks again. Talk soon.