Companion Episode: Evil Genius

Sonia Meza-Leon: Okay, well, this will definitely get you back in the zone because what we're going to be talking about next, Brittany is I think one of our favorite, docu-series not my favorite, but, Sonia Meza-Leon: um, it's perplexing. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. It's um, I mean, I, I felt a little strange at the end of it, but let's, uh, let's start at the beginning. What are we talking about? Ready?

We are talking about the Netflix docu-series by the Duplass brothers and Sonia Meza-Leon: I love them. I'm calling them out specifically because they are, they are awesome. They make some really great shows and movies. Called evil genius. Um, and this was, this was a show that came out in, I don't know, 17, 18, maybe 2018. Okay. So it's a lot of new one. Um, but it's, it's really interesting.

Quick little, uh, Very high level, what the series seems like it's about and what it's actually about are very different. It seems like it's about the, was it 2004, three, 2003, 2003 bank robbery slash bombing that a hostage bombing, single person hostage, uh, that I remember vaguely happened. Sonia Meza-Leon: And I don't remember that happening. Yeah, I remember vaguely and you, my listeners might remember it. It was the guy who was, uh, had a bomb strapped to his chest.

He had just robbed a bank. And, um, there, I mean kind of like the iconic scenes of him are on the asphalt between two squad cars, handcuffed saying he's got a bomb and it's going to explore. And ultimately explodes. So the documentary starts out seemingly like it's going to be about that event, but it's totally not about that at all. I mean, it is, but not really. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. So the docu-series is called evil genius. The true story of America's most diabolical bank.

And even there, Brittany, like, to your point, it's not what you think, but I'm not even sure the name is accurate because I worry I'm like, how diabolical was it? So this was a true story. This really happened. But really to your point, you know, So much bigger and so much smaller at the same time, you know, like it's like, it was such a white wine, you know, like totally stupid, but, you know, I mean, Hey, it was a windy road to get there. I will say that. So this docu series centers around.

Weird cast of characters. The first of course is the poor dude who got blown up Brian Wells. And, um, you know, he, this is in Erie, Pennsylvania, so he was a guy, you know, he's a pizza delivery guy. Um, he, I mean, he, like Brittany said, you know, he's, we see that we have a lot of footage of this guy because we know that he goes into a bank.

We know that he has a bomb strapped to his chest because it's pretty obvious there's a. On over the bond, but it's huge and it's a color, it's a color bomb. So essentially it's a collar around his neck that he can't get off. And by the way, he also has a gun that's in the shape of a king. So he, how pray, tell did this gentleman get like, this is what you're probably asking, but we'll tell you about that. He goes into the bank. He demands money. I think they give them some money.

Yeah, I think they do. And I, he, he was sent into the bank with this like long, almost like manifesto that long and short of it was give me $250,000 or I'm going to blow up this bomb attached to my chest. So I don't know what they actually give him, but they give him something. I mean, I've always heard that banks are insured. So in those situations they're essentially told, just do it. Don't cause a panic there's that probably that like explosive dye stuff in there.

Anyway, the bank is insured. The police will be called instantly. So he goes in, he gives the note, he gets the money you walks out and pretty much police swarm instantly. Sonia Meza-Leon: So was weird about it. You would say to yourself when you see the footage of this dude, that he doesn't look to be under any real stress entering in, he's got his cane. Um, it would appear that.

Somehow or another, you know, it maybe knows that either the bomb's not real or he's, he doesn't, doesn't appear to think that he's in any danger, I guess is what I'll say. Right. He strolls in, he strolls out, he goes out to his car and the police swarm him. I think he's sitting down in front of his car on the, uh, there's a lot of footage of this, by the way. Yeah. It's like what? And then, uh, of course he's sitting there.

Yeah. What starts happening, you know, they put, I think, I don't know if they have handcuffs on and he's sitting on the ground, he's sitting on the ground. The police have no freaking idea what to do. Cause they're terrified. They're like, well, we know the guy's got a bomb somewhere and we don't want to go up there. Isn't real. The guy doesn't seem to be acting like it's real. He doesn't seem to be in under any. Except when it starts ticking.

Yeah. And then he's like, I think this thing's going to go off. And this is when you kind of see the shift in him and it's like, oh shit. Even. So though there's, there is somewhat of a shift in him, but it's still less of a shift than I would expect for someone who's about to be blown up because he's like, Hey guys, no real. It's going to explode as opposed to like, holy shit. Oh my God, I'm going to die. Get me outta here. Like, there's not panic. It's just, this is serious. Come on.

You know, let's hurry this up. Let's let's move this along Sonia Meza-Leon: that. Well, exactly. And let's remember that because. There's conversations later about whether this gentleman, you know, participated in this crime. And I think that's a real tell that I do feel like you, Brittany that up into the minute where he got blown up. I don't think he thought that he was going to get blown up. No, we'll, uh, we'll talk about that towards the end, because that's how I kind of felt, but then.

Sonia Meza-Leon: I don't know either. So let's go with a cast of characters because we've got the initial incident. So let's talk a little bit of a mom, more of this, this guy, he gets blown up he's um, and by the way, Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah, it's crazy. He falls over the police are like, what do we do? You know, is he going to blow up again or do we walk up to them? Right. I mean, how do we know if he's alive? Do we help him? Is he the victim or is he a criminal? Like didn't even know.

I think they figured out after a while by the look on his face, I'm sure that he's no longer alive and. Here's where I was like, whoa, that's crazy and weird. So he's got a collar bomb on. Right. And so they, and rightly, so these police are very concerned that this thing might blow up again. And if they take it off of him or try to manipulate the bomb in any way, it could explode. So they're scared. Right? So they cut his head off to get the ball. On the, on the sidewalk essentially.

Yeah, right there, right there in the middle of shenanigans. Just everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So, but also it's the, the cut is, I think they tried to remove the collar because the, the, the. Big backstory of this is, it was actually kind of a game where he had this collar on. He was going to, he, he robbed the bank and then he was being sent on a scavenger hunt of other places.

And he was going to get information that was going to lead him to the keys so he could let himself out of the collar and it turned, and there were four like locks on the. Only two of them were even capable of being unlocked. So two of them were like, just decoys anyway. So part of that is what messed up with the officers too, is that they didn't know if there was even really a way to get that collar off. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. And, and try not to move the guy. And I hate rightly so.

You know, I don't really blame them and I think. The family was pissed off, but it's an unusual circumstance. And I think the police had to do what they had to do to make sure that they were safe. Now we, we move along again. Brittany's point we find paperwork in the car, um, uh, Brian Wells, and we know that there's a bomb and it's pretty easy to dissect the pieces, the flew everywhere and understand and potentially figure out who made the bomb. So that happens, right? That's on the news.

That's known as the pizza bomber, so on. And so. Parallel to that. Right? We've got another case where we've got a gentleman named bill Rothstein, call the police and say, Hey, I need to tell you that I got a dead body in my freezer and this crazy woman, Marjorie deal Armstrong, who was my, or is my ex-girlfriend or not. Maybe she's my girlfriend who knows. I'm not really sure. I'm not sure.

But she's with me and she made me put the body in the freezer and, um, you know, I've been stalling for time because I know it's wrong. And the way I've been selling for crime is time, time as I've been going around, pretending like I'm buying meat, grinders, and other ways to do this body, but let's be sure we freeze it for now. Um, and so this is where it gets weird, man, the police. Go over to bill Rothstein. So the person who's talks about again, Marjorie deal Armstrong.

We'll talk about her in a minute. The police go over to his house and he shows them around, gives them a tour, including the tour of the freezer with the dead body. So Brittany, who is in the freezer, would you like to share. Uh, so I have to admit, I have a little bit of a confession to make, uh, this is the, this is the second time I've watched this series.

And the end of episode one is when bill calls the police, the start-up of episode two is when he starts showing the police around his place. I fell asleep watching episode two, the second time. And watch it all the way through the first time I fell asleep the second time, um, the, the victim, the body at this point is Marjorie deal. Armstrong's another one of her ex-boyfriends. He was, he was her former boyfriend at the time.

His last name is roadblock and tell you why you remember his last name, but what's his first. Sonia Meza-Leon: Jeez, this gentleman's name and if they had been dating apparently for quite a while. So when we talk about Marjorie a little bit, well, first of all, go, can he stay with her for 10 years, but a changed route and was his name. And he was folded up like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and put into the freezer and kept there for a while.

While bill was, I guess, just trying to figure out what to do with Marjorie and. Uh, so, okay. This is a total sidebar. I don't know why, but I kept on remembering, uh, James Rodin's last name because I kept on calling it Rodin, which I'm pretty sure it was a name of a Godzilla Kaiju. Sonia Meza-Leon: That is exactly Britney. You are in the band. And that's how I kept I that's how I remembered his last name, but clearly I forgot his first name.

Sonia Meza-Leon: James it's spelled it is, but that's how I remember. Yeah, Nana for sharing. I think Rodin is, uh, the it's sounds like the French version of road. And, but, uh, the road 10 is the three headed monster and that's another one. There's another one, 300 monsters and Godzilla. Sonia Meza-Leon: I'll send you a picture. Yeah. And I think that turtle has three heads. Do they had a lot of things that have had multiple heads. Yeah. I'll send you a picture of what I have.

Yeah. Sorry guys. Any who? Back to the track. So bill roster. For some reason decides that he wants to share with police. You know, stop whatever he's doing with Marjorie. And he turns her in and, um, because not only does he show them where the body is, but he tells them who to ultimately murdered James Roden. And he says it's Marjorie. And it's pretty easy to see that someone murdered James.

Because he didn't put himself in the freezer and the x-ray x-ray him and he's got shrapnel in his, uh, throat. So apparently someone decided to use a shotgun to shoot James Roden and then decided to either keep him on ice for whatever reason. We'll talk about that later. But, um, you know, this is where Billy on scene and Marjorie, um, you know, are obviously at odds. You ask us, what would this have to do with the pizza bomber case?

And we don't really realize until a little bit later in the docu-series that they actually do, because it appears that Marjorie and bill and, uh, uh, a couple of other folks conspired to, uh, and Marjorie will never admit this, but conspired to do sort of do the pizza heist or the, the bank ice. It's so strange because you know, Marjorie's Marjorie deal arm from is apparently a very intelligent person. Yes. A person who was very manipulative is, um, she doesn't appear to be a nice person.

So she, on, in her interviews on camera it's, she's not very likable and she, but loud, aggressive almost felt like she had Tourette's a little bit. It's very, very clear. She has pretty significant mental illness and she is it's indicative and obvious that she is someone who needed help a long, long time ago. And we will see that there was someone who really tried in earnest to get her help. And. Did everything right, but the system kind of just spit her back out.

She is someone that she struggled because she genuinely was extremely intelligent. That's where the genius comes from, but very manipulative and, uh, dealt with a lot of, uh, contradicting mental health conditions that caused her to be quite. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. Yeah, she was very persuasive. Um, it's set. So really the center of the story is about, is really Marjorie deal Armstrong. Apparently she was the mastermind behind the whole thing and what's unknown.

I mean, She was doing this for money because at one point I think she hired a Hitman to kill her dad. She was pissed off at him because he was giving away her inheritance. And so she retaliated by trying to hire another one of these cast of yokels. Uh, Ken Barnes, her fishing, um, was my note. And he's like, yeah, sure. I'll kill your dad. You know, he was said he was just bullshitting and she wasn't. He was like, of course I'm not.

But, uh, she was really, he was really serious is, uh, he, he was like a. No local Erie, Pennsylvania. Drug dealer, like he was known around town in the seedy areas, uh, as being like the go to guy to get your fix. And he was a major, major addict himself. And at one point they'd go to his. And it is straight out of hoarders, like a, with all of the worst part of hoarders that you can imagine, not just the stuff, but the Fil, the grime, the rodents, the bugs. And it was, eh, it was just awful.

And God bless anyone who trusted the drugs that they got from this. Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, that's, what's weird about it because I don't know, maybe it's the condition or whatever condition is, but you know, that hoarder condition, bill Rothstein had the same thing. He and showed them around his house. He had lived in the house for 55 years. Like he probably didn't even see like the floor in someone's our house for 50 something years.

I mean, it was, and this is bill Rossi was a very intelligent man again. Some of these people are anyway, are very intelligent, very manipulative, um, you know, manipulated by Margarie apparently. And, um, at some point, you know, in this documentary Dr. Series, his best friend is interviewed and he was like, I don't even know that.

But what's weird about bill rusty, you know, because what we find is that, like you said, there's all this documentation, there is exhaustive letters, um, to the bank teller about the heist. Like who's going to S so I don't, there are a lot of things that are confusing about this to me. Um, I don't understand, I get it, that they were sending somebody on a wild goose chase.

So when they write this giant letter to the bank, Are they expecting them to read it and it's would take time for them to know. I thought that too. What's their point like who this is. You're like, you know, you're making a stand or whatever, but to who, like, what do you think the bank teller is going to give a shit, you know, about your, why you're compelled to exactly. And it's weird. And then the here's what I also have a problem with.

So the whole shenanigans with, you know, the game, the scavenger hunt, the police did a test and it was a very, very simple test to do. And the test. How long would it take to go from point a through the points, the listed on the scavenger hunt to get to the end result. And it was time that was more time than they had put on the timer on the bomb. So Brian Wells would have never know.

So if these people are robbing a bank, so here's where I'm like Marjorie deal, Armstrong KUKA Rue, for sure, because. You know, if she's trying to kill her dad because of the money. Right. And she many times will say in this next two years, I'm rich. Why would I need to do that? You know, she lies a lot. I mean, she can fix herself a lot. First. She says that she didn't kill her boyfriend. And then later on, she absolutely admits to it because they were arguing about another woman.

And, but when you listen to both, you know, the, both of the interviews, it sounds exactly the same mean she's a great writer. I would have never thought she's, I mean, she's adamant, you know, I mean she's, and she's crazy too, but she's adamant that she didn't do. And then she's like, yeah, I did it, you know, and she was, she was proud of it. The part that's weird about the bill Rossi thing is again, a very intelligent man.

It sounds to me like it's fairly, we're fairly confident that bill wrote the scavenger hunt letters and also the letter to the bank teller, um, you know, sort of this manifesto. Right. But, um, if Marjorie's the one who masterminded this for money, if anybody masterminded it for me, And they didn't give this guy enough time to fulfill it before they blew him up. I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't really know what the point was. Either. The scavenger hunt starts with a Wells.

You delivering a pizza per se, we're going to assume that because that's ultimately, I think what is kinda sorta decided happen. Uh, and then to, to Marjorie Armstrong, he is confronted by four people, Marjorie bill, and then two other guys. Um, the one we just talked about, uh, Ken burns, Ken Barnes, and then one other guy who was he? A convicted sex offender who was living with a bill, but so essentially he just went along for the ride because he was living there.

Um, essentially. Sonia Meza-Leon: But that's, what's weird about it. Like why like, are they going to split it out? Yeah. Well, that's what I mean, but so essentially, so Wells leaves, he goes to the bank, then they follow him and they have stakeout points. So I'm wondering if they had no intention of him finishing the scavenger hunt and they were essentially just going to corner him, take the money and then let.

Die with the bomb, Sonia Meza-Leon: but why go to the trouble of writing out the scavenger hunt? And I think they found the pieces that the scavenger hunt was supposed to lead them to as well. Didn't they did. Yeah, that's true. I agree. But Wheeler, but you're so you're dealing with mentally unstable people, particularly Marjorie, because, so not just James Rodin. Did she kill. She had two previous boyfriends that wound up dead one.

She went to trial for his murder and was ultimately found not guilty, but her defense attorney in that trial tried and tried and tried to get her committed to a mental facility because as a psychiatric facility, Because he knew she was not right and she needed help. And I think she spent like 10 days in a psychiatric facility, but ultimately was determined not to be severe enough. So it was spit back out into society.

And he's interviewed later on in the series towards the end and essentially says, I knew. 20 years ago, or whenever it was when I defended her, this woman was violent and dangerous and had a mental health condition and needed help, but they just didn't believe me. And didn't find her severe enough. And now look where we're at. Sonia Meza-Leon: I think that happens a lot. I mean, yeah, we hear about that frequently way more often than not.

Sonia Meza-Leon: Yep. So, I mean, that's, that's pretty much the, the short of it. I mean, there are a lot of meanderings in the docu-series there's a lot of video of her yelling and talking. Trying to compel somebody to do something for, I don't even know sometimes what the, and that's the, that's kinda the, the, the thing about this year is that it's, it's worth a watch. But when you said, like, it's one of our favorites, I can't say it's one of my favorites because it's, it's compelling.

It's interesting. The first episode is really interesting in it's all about the bombing. And then it ends on this huge cliffhanger of bill Rothstein calling the police like, whoa, what does this have anything to do with it? And then episode two is all about Marjorie, even though I fell asleep. Second viewing of it.

It's all about her and like her previous mysterious boyfriend deaths and the one that, uh, she killed, possibly killed, uh, because she wanted him to, uh, murder her father so she could get his inheritance, even though he wrote her out of his will. Uh, and then episode three and four is kind of just.

Marjorie, just kind of ranting and raving and other people that she shared cells with and other people that these other guys shared prison cells with being interviewed and saying, yeah, this is what they said. And these are the letters we wrote, but it doesn't really introduce any new information. Uh, no, it doesn't. It. Sonia Meza-Leon: I mean, but I mean, for the, for the first time I watched it, I really like it. So I would say, take Alyssa, take a, listen, take a look.

I mean, do you want to share what the outcome is or, well, yeah, because I think honestly the, I don't want to negate the last two episodes. There's only, it's only four episodes, so it's a pretty quick watch. Um, but the. The most compelling part of the fourth episode is trying to identify whether or not Wells is what was party to the initial plot. And I think officially criminally, he was neither, even though he was dead, he was neither posthumously. Accused nor acquitted of being involved.

There wasn't enough evidence one way or the other. Uh, and his family is very vocal in court, just yelling at the, the judge when he suggests that he may have been involved. And so. Yeah. On one hand, just before the show wraps, it seems pretty conclusive that he was not party to the crime. He showed up to deliver a pizza as part of his job. And he was conned into essentially, he was, he was forced into wearing this bomb and.

Going on this scavenger hunt, uh, earlier they talk about how he was involved in the planning that seem to be negated. However, one of the very last things that they talk about in this series is there's a woman who is an eerie PA prostitute, who was a. Frequent welds was a frequent client of hers. Uh, and they became actually like really good friends. Like they genuinely hung out and she would get groceries for his elderly parents.

Um, and then she became pregnant right around the time that he died and she thinks he's the father, but he, uh, Again, what the heck's the drug dealers name again? I'm so terrible with this. His name's Ken barns. Here's how Sonia Meza-Leon: they sort of, I understood. They knew each other. Jessica, so-and-so the prostitute. Was getting drugs from Ken Barnes. So she would essentially come in Ken and I, if I'm not mistaken, Brian Wells lived or hung out with Ken Barnes too.

So she would hook up with Brian Wells. They would have sex upstairs. She would take that money and go downstairs to Ken Barnes and get drugs, and then she would do them. Yeah. So what I understood happened was that at some point, Marjorie and maybe bill who knows. Came over to Ken Barnes house and said, we need some idiot to, you know, sort of be the person who's going to go to the bank for us at the time Jessica was there and she heard her.

It appears that Jessica May have been the person that suggested Brian Wells, which he says great regret Sonia Meza-Leon: for. So when Brian Wells came up with, so they essentially ordered a pizza and they, then they took the pizza guy and kind of held them hostage and threw a bomb on him and made him go do it. I think they were familiar with each other. Brian Wells obviously knew Ken Barnes, Ken Barnes was warned was there.

So there was some familiarity when you drove up with a pizza, which by the way, it was like really close to bill Rossi towels. He had to have seen Ken Barnes. He knew him. Right. So he's got to feel some comfort. I mean, I think this was a, it was like a pretty small town in, especially like this neighborhood. It was like the type of neighborhood where everyone knows each other. So I don't think any of these guys were stranger. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah, exactly.

So I think when Brian walked up with the pizza, if I, I understood they had a slice of pizza and then they kind of ambushed him. But I think that they told them all along. It wasn't real because if they would, he would add any inclination that that bomb was going to go off. His, his actions would have been very different, I would think so, but they did see or Sonia Meza-Leon: drive to the police.

So if I, if I, I would never get in a car with, uh, something that, that may or may not be a bomb and drive and go do what they said, I would try that. But I think they did say that he did have a certain level of cognitive impairment and may not have, he may have known, but may not have wanted to question them and may have believed that if he just went along with their plan, everything would have been okay. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah, no, for sure.

And I'm not sure when, I mean it, did they give him the paperwork and say here's the scavenger hunt and was the first stop the bank. And that's what. Oh, so maybe it was just a game all along. It's just really strange. Cause he's on guys. He's on video, man. He's like, they're looking straight in you in camera saying, you know, guys, guys, I think something's happening here. And it's like, and then all that. I mean, he, I really felt like he never his face.

He never had until the very second where that thing blew up, he really had any idea it was going to blow up. Yeah, I agree. I think he knew that. I think towards the end, he knew this was a real bomb, but I don't know if he knew that it was like imminent. Sonia Meza-Leon: Alrighty. Well, Scarlett is, that was a pretty short little episode. I have a couple of shout outs I want to do so, uh, maybe we'll keep going. Okay. All right.

I want to do a couple shout outs to some new friends that I've made recently. I want to give a shout out to music city 9 1 1. Brandon Hall is the host and he has a periodic co-host as well. He is a nine 11 dispatcher in Nashville, Tennessee. And I would just love to sort of tell you guys to take a listen. I, so he's a real nine 11 operator. So the stories that he had, obviously perplexing and really entertaining in my opinion. And he's just a real nice guy.

And his voice is really, really lovely. So highly suggest those guys give them a shout out and we have a promo for them at the end of our episode. So you guys can take a listen, get a little familiar with them. And then I also want to give a shout out to my group. Katelyn Dowdy. Now she doesn't know she's mine, but I tell her right now, um, I, she does a YouTube series called a mortician and.

I'm not sure if I counted corpse as part of asking mortician or it's a separate sort of, you know, thinks she does, but she's a mortician. I think she lives in LA and she's got her own funeral home with a partner. And, um, I find her to be really, really, really fascinating.

And I know it sounds really gruesome, but there are questions that I have a. That stuff that I've always wanted to ask and her YouTube videos are so informative and she's got a huge following, but, um, I really, I really find her interesting, like the other day I will readily admit I watched a video that she did about how they keep your mouth shut when you're, um, you know, being prepared for reviewing. And, um, it was, I know that's really gruesome and crazy, but it was really interesting.

So I am, I'm not going to tell you, you have to watch it. I can't. That was the proper answer. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. Just watch it, please watch it. But she's really awesome. I'm hoping Brittany, since she's in LA and we're in LA, that we could at some point do a little interview and meet each other because yeah, she's really cool. And I love her observations and she's just really informative. So yeah, you Caitlyn Dowdy and iconic corpse and ask mortician, check her out. All right.

It's Carlitos as always. Thanks for checking this out. Um, I think you're going to be hearing some more promos from us in the future. We are really enjoying, connecting with other independent podcasters and supporting one another.

So if you have suggestions or are interested in being promoted on Scarlet TCP and would like to do a promo swap, we would love to hear from you, uh, hit us up on social media, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and listen to us on every platform where podcasts are available. Sonya, anything else? Sonia Meza-Leon: No, this has been very enjoyable. Hi, you guys, our audience, I have to give them credit.

They I've been hearing some wonderful things from people lately, so we really appreciate all your support, so, uh, keep killing it. Scarlet owes. All right. Thank you. Sonia Meza-Leon: Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall. I'm one of the hosts of music city, nine 11, a podcast about the good, the bad, and the dark side of nine 11. Dispatching me and my co-hosts are 9 1 1 dispatchers. With over 60 years of experience, join us as we play 9 1 1 calls and discuss. Oh, did I mention that we get dark nine 11?

What's your emergency? you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at music city nominal one. And we're downloadable on every podcast platform.