BTK Killer | Dennis Rader - Part 1

Today, Sonia Meza-Leon: we are talking about Dennis Rader, also known as BTK, which stands for bind, torture, kill. And he was essentially the BTK killer. Self-proclaimed, uh, not shy about letting people know that. He anonymously of course, took responsibility for the murders that happened, which there were 10 of them between 1974 and 1991. He was not actually caught until 2005 and he was caught because of his own.

Um, I think I would call it, uh, a slip up, you know, and, uh, oh, definitely because of his hubris and a bit of his naive a D in my opinion, I mean, he was stupid for believing. It was pretty, you know, we'll, we'll cover why it was dumb, but it was a really dumb way to get caught. Sonia Meza-Leon: Exactly. Um, but that sort of speaks to his arrogance. He is serving 10 consecutive life sentences right now in Kansas. He was born in Wichita, Kansas.

Um, he spent his time there growing up and then he moved to park city, Kansas. He was born in 1945 on March 9th. And he was born to, um, Dorothea may Raider and William Elvin. Raider sidebar. Yeah. I had an oboe instructor named when I was a kid and I have never heard that name since. So I think that's awesome. Sonia Meza-Leon: DOR Tia or door Dorothea. Well, I think what this same thing, but like positions, I think it's the same thing because it's spelled the same way.

It's just, she pronounced it like the original German intended. Sonia Meza-Leon: very macho. Um, all right. So Dennis Rader, he's one of, uh, four. Yes, he's one of four sons. Um, well, I'm not going to get too much honestly, into the Raider family, especially, um, you know, out of respect for the tenders, Raiders wife and his two children who had to endure the craziness that ensued after he was found out.

And then of course, you know, these are people who were, you know, raised by him and who were married to him for all those years while he was doing these crimes. So, you know, I, I've watched a lot of documentaries with, um, in particular Dennis rater's daughter talking about, um, how they didn't know and how devastating it was. And I really feel for these people. So I'm not going to spend a ton of time on that.

We'll talk a little bit later about some of the current situations, but, um, you know, I have to say Dennis Rader, BTK, I'm not going to say he's my favorite serial killer because that's a weird word. I do believe. Yeah. In my heart of hearts, I hate him the most of all other serial killers. And I'll tell you why. Okay. Um, and you got, yeah, no for sure. This guy for all of these years.

So he, he, what what's interesting about Dennis rater and his ability to sort of, um, hide from the police and the authorities for so long was that he was not a stupid man. Certainly he was moderately educated. He was white. He was like five, nine. He was, you know, your regular old guy. He worked for in a variety of capacities that gave him access and taught him, um, how to really get really good at his crime. In addition to that, he had. Pretty serious issues, uh, sexual perversions.

And when I say that, because there's lots of whatever's out there, you can fetish all day. How about it? But he enjoyed torturing animals. He endured joy tortured. People in particular women and, um, in ultimately murdering them and leaving him them in an UN undistinguished, humiliating state. Um, you know, and he did this for what, 30 years. I mean, it's kind of incredible to think that he went on for that long, especially because he taunted the police as much as he did.

So, you know, let's, we'll dive into each of the murders individually, but Britney, any, anything you want to talk about in particular with Dennis Rader before we really start going down? And I think it's important to paint a little bit of a picture of his background, or you covered it a little bit.

Um, and we don't need to go into a lot of detail cause we're going to have a lot to talk about, uh, with the crimes themselves, but just to get to know the man Dennis Rader, before he became BTK, as he wanted to be known as, uh, he. When he was growing up as a child, he was a, a quiet, withdrawn, socially awkward kid who showed tendencies of violence early on, as Sonia mentioned, by killing animals and taking pleasure in that he was never a good student, never very intelligent.

Um, I mean, he was a pretty good looking guy growing up, but always kind of struck out with the ladies. Uh, he graduated high school in 1963 and he went to a community college for a couple of years. And then in 1965, he went to Kansas Wesleyan university or college in Salina. And he dropped out because he wasn't really making his grades cause he wasn't a really a smart guy and. And this was of course, like the heart of the Vietnam war. And so he was afraid of getting drafted.

So he enlisted himself in the air force. So he would not be on the front lines, on the battlefield. And so while he was in the air force, he started to show signs of his future. Uh, violent side is stalking tendencies. He would, uh, he had a very inflated ego. He envisioned himself like James Bond.

He would go to bars and like I women, and like stalk them a little bit, not, not to your point where that he got, but he carried a gun with him because he felt like he was undercover and always needed to be protected and would step up if anything were to happen. And he was always prepared then, uh, he, he came back in 1969, I believe it was. And he in 1970 and he, uh, He, he met his future wife who Sonia, you know, I kind of agree with you. We don't need to discuss too much.

Uh, they were, they dated for a short time. Paula Dietz is her name and they were married in 1971. Uh, Sonia Meza-Leon: after they were married, they had two children, Carrie and Brian, and for all practical purposes, you know, if you hear from Paula and from the kids, they had a very normal. Um, you know, they were, they were as shocked as everyone else.

Um, and so betrayed, obviously when they heard about this, because until then, you know, there was no, there was no, um, information, you know, or nothing that would lead them to believe that he was capable of anything like that. I think there was only one time where Dennis Rader lost his temper with his son and they had to pull him off of the sun. Um, but that doesn't make you a murderer. That just means that you've got some anger issues. Right.

Um, so, you know, really, there's a lot of interviews out there with, um, you know, the daughters, uh, and, and I don't know, maybe the son, but, um, it's a lot of Lynch, interesting information out there. I would definitely take a look at it. So, Brittany, as you said, there was a lot of let's go back to, um, you know, of course talking about the zoo Satan. Which is torturing, killing and hanging of animals.

He also acted out a lot of sexual fantasies he had, and he will go on to talk about these fantasies and tell and say that ultimately that's what drove him to do the things he did. He called his drive a factor X, and he blamed everything really on factor X. And that seemed to drive really every move he made, um, or at least all the moves when it came to his, um, criminal behavior. And what's crazy about it is, you know, here's a guy who, again, this is a very long time.

And if you look at, you know, how he murders these people over time, I mean, it's all over the place. It's like some in the seventies, eighties, and then in the nineties, but like he skips like 10 years between them. Um, sometimes, you know, no, and I think that's, of course, one of the reasons they couldn't catch him also because we're always led to believe that serial killers, um, you know, they escalate. So in my opinion, when we get to the first.

I feel like that's the worst crime he committed and nothing. I'm not saying, you know, not to, it's not picking favorites, but it was the one where children were involved and were murdered. And to start to me at that level is where I'm, I'm just terrified at this person. And also so angry with him. I have no tolerance for, for torturing children and the things that he, he did.

Um, but let's talk about the sexual fetish that he was interested in, including voyeurism autoerotic asphyxiation and cross-dressing, he would always like in his neighborhood, when he was young, sneak around, watch women get undressed, he would wear women's clothing. He would masturbate with ropes and bindings on. He would even do that dress up thing. And, um, you know, in-between the murders, right? By the way, I don't know if you guys realize what autoerotic asphyxiation is.

Um, it's a fairly, I don't know, common thing actually, which I it's shocking, but essentially it's the strangulation of yourself. Hence the auto, um, until you write about to the point where you climax and then you take off whatever you're strangling yourself with and it's supposed to really, um, sort of. Elevate your, your orgasm. Exactly.

There are many people, um, out there in the world, um, celebrities who we know have died while trying, uh, well, well, not trying, but they did try cause they didn't succeed. Yeah. But, um, a couple of them that you will remember would be Michael Hutchins. And then also, um, you, I think David Carradine passed away like that. What I saw, um, on the documentation that I looked at was that Rader would tie himself to a rope that was tied to the bathroom door knob, and then leaned forward.

So that's how he would control himself now. And I, and I guess, because he was so close to the floor, maybe, I dunno, I dunno. I don't know how he kept himself, but you know, there's always a risk when you're practicing. Autoerotic asphyxiation that you're not going to recover from it.

I don't know how he, how he got away with this, but there is a picture that he turned over to the police of himself when he was caught in 2005 of himself wearing a woman's mask, which was a common theme for him while he was partaking in autoerotic asphyxiation and wearing some of his victims clothes. And he actually tied himself to a tree branch and was hanging in the air one. I don't know how you physically do that without actually killing yourself.

And two, I don't know how you get away with that and set up a camera to take a picture of it, but it was a really disturbing picture that he was kind of proud to turn over to police officers. Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh, he was a weird dude. He, he definitely taunted the police. He wanted people to know that he, whoever he was, um, and he hourly caught himself BTK that he wanted them to know. Um, and we'll talk a little, a little bit later.

I think we should go ahead and get into the crimes, but we can talk a little bit about how along the way he communicated with the police. Um, but you know, let's start, let's start, uh, at Dennis Rader, you know, Has two kids. This is right around the time. Oh, one more thing I do want to mention by the way he was going to, and he graduated from Wichita state university and of course he was studying, he was studying justice administration.

So he, from an early, early, early on, he started really working out, um, and trying to educate himself on the typical, um, you know, the, the criminal justice system and how he could get work his way around it. And Wichita state university is also where BTK, I, uh, also known as Dennis Rader made a lot of the photocopies of the documents and letters he sent to the police. So they were able to trace those back to Wichita state university.

'cause and, and just remember guys, if you read anything about this case, he was fairly crafty sometimes, but then other times he was fairly stupid. So I was like, well, I don't, I don't know what this guy's doing. He seems to be off the rails. He would make photocopies, he would never send the original letters to the police. I assume that's because he didn't want them to trace anything about the letters, but there was still, you know, you could still track down.

And I think IBM helped them track down. Um, you know, at least the photocopy model photocopier models and where he could get them and they traced them back to Wichita state, but everybody in the Republic. So you couldn't really figure it out. It was, uh, it was too hard to track down, but they got to at least have that detail. But, um, yeah, no. See he for a guy who didn't have any time, he had some time.

I mean, it sounded like every waking moment he had was either spending with his kids in his family, going to school or studying how to kill people and honestly stopped. Well, he, I almost feel like he was, you know, he went to when he was trying to fill his time by being a community guy. And like, he was a boy scout troop leader. He was like president of the church council. He was always trying to be well-known.

And I, I got the impression and I don't know about you, but I got the impression that the murders happened when the other activities died down. And he actually did the other activities to try and quell his urge to kill. Sonia Meza-Leon: Sometimes sometimes, but I think his number one priority was always, you know, the sideline piece of it. It just you're you're right. There were definitely moments in his life where either he was experiencing stress or pressure that would drive him.

But most of the documentation in the letters that he, he first off he's very well, you know, written when it comes to or well documented. Anyway, he wrote, he has all of these letters. He has like journals. He has. Pictures that he drew of these poor people being tortured. And then he wrote a book and he, uh, and so nicely of him, he was like, oh, I'm writing this book. Um, but I'm going to donate the, donate, the proceeds to the victims. So I think he did that.

And that was, again, really well-documented he spoke in, in depth with the police about exactly what happened at each murder too. So he, and that's one of the ways that they were able to tie some of these murders to him because he would, no one else would have known the information that he provided to them, um, except for the murder.

So it was really, really weird and interesting, but, um, you know, let's talk a little bit about the first, um, set of murders because the first, the first set of murders actually were formers two adults and two children. And this was on January 15th, 1974 in Wichita, Kansas. The victims were Joseph Otero. He was 38, Julie Otero. Age 33, Joseph Otero Jr. And he was nine and then Josephine Oterra who is 11.

So, um, I can, you know, let's walk through some of this, you know, I don't want to spend too much time on it because the, the, the, the stuff with the kids is just horrific. It is, um, By the way the bodies were discovered by the kids or the family's oldest son who was not there at the time and walked in on this. Yep. So, so very, very sad. Um, from what I understand, it sounds like that, you know, in typical fashion he breaks into the house. This is, was fairly common.

Emma of his, he would break into the house, he would have a gun. He would tell whoever he was breaking in that, you know, he was, he told a lot of them that he was going to rape them, but not kill them and then robbed them. And so, but he never, we all know he never raped anyone. I mean, anyone, there was a lot of sexual tendencies, but there was never any indication of. Sonia Meza-Leon: Exactly. And there was never any semen or any physical, you know, proof of rape as well.

So it seemed apparent that what he was after was a sexual, um, you know, sort of, uh, he was really trying to fulfill a sexual need, but didn't have anything to do, honestly. Sex per se with another person. Um, I think that, um, and as we can go through this, we'll talk a little bit more about it, but, you know, emotions of the people that Dennis Rader murdered were suffocated and strangled. Um, and, and then one of them I think was stabbed.

But for the most part, he liked to watch people die slowly. And of course, if he was murdering more than one person, that he was probably, um, the, uh, the rest of whoever, the people there were likely watching him kill some of the people in front of him. So for instance, the Otero family. So we have a mom and dad who have their two children, nine and 11 with them. Of course, this guy goes into the house. They're terrified. This is the beginning of the BTK murders. So nobody has any idea.

Now, remember in crazy ass, 1970s, um, where Brittany, you know, we just were talking about, you know, all the craziness that happens in the 1970s, like the California freeway killer, which there were multiple, the golden state killer, the east area rapist. Like it just doesn't seem like anybody like PR. I mean, nobody cared what, you know, it was a free for all. It was so easy to find people and to murder them. There seems to be so much tension. It was crazy. I know crazy.

Like, I just, I mean, it, in a most of these crimes to me were targeted at women and what was even crazy. I think you and I talked to your dad the other day, but with the golden state killer, which has bananas, like I think around that time where the east area rapist, you know, the rapes were happening. If you got caught for raping someone, you would probably get like 30 days or 90 days or even probation. You're not even going to get really in trouble coral Raisy.

So maybe that's why Dennis Rader was telling these people, oh, I'm just going to rape you. Because at the time, apparently that was not a big deal or as not as bad as murdering them. But I was really confused a lot about Dennis Rader. Um, you know, I, I have questions along the way. Let's again. Sorry, go back to our first set of murders. Joseph Otero, Julio Terros Joseph junior and Josephine. So it sounds to me like Dennis Rader in his first foray.

And by the way, this might've been his first set of murders, but he was very, very well-planned in this. He had, here's what he says that he used to do. He, because he spent quite a bit of time finding his art, his targets, and then he would find, spend quite a bit more time studying them. So he would, what he said he would do is he was, he would troll for a new victim or set of victims.

And then he, once he determined who that would be or who they would be, he stalked them for a quite a period of time. He figured out how to get into their houses when they were home, who was going to be. And he made himself, um, you know, he planned around those events. So he was really good at it. So back to January 15th, 1974, these, this families, you know, in their house. Um, and again, Raider comes in.

He's saying that he's only going to rape them or he's only gonna burglarize them actually just looking for, he was like looking, he says he was looking for money and a car to get away because he was on one Sonia Meza-Leon: in criminal, on the road. Yeah. He loved to have this say, you know, this idea that he was all famous, which has bananas. Um, but that's somewhere something sort of consistent with his behaviors. I think she had a really like, his ego is huge.

So here we have the entire family in the bedroom. Um, we will later know that they find Joseph, uh, the father and the mother in the bedroom. And what Dennis Rader does without getting into too much graphic detail is he puts a bag over Joseph Arturo's head. And while the other people are sitting there, right. We're all in the same room together. So clearly they could see what was happening. The daughter and the son were watching his parents like be murdered. Essentially.

It's important to know though he. Like his name would he bound all of the Otero family. He tied them up by their arms and legs behind them. So they couldn't fight back. Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh yeah. And he has he even. He had a gun with him that he never had any intention of using, like you said, he w he didn't use guns in his murders. He had other means, uh, but he used the gun as intimidation to allow them to get the family to comply. So that way he could proceed with his crimes.

A lot of people usually think of compliance as the best defense, because they believe that they will survive because that's what they are being told by the perpetrator where in most cases we ultimately find that compliance is actually the worst option. And most of the time it does not end well for the victims when they may have had other opportunities to fight back, Sonia Meza-Leon: especially with. You have a situation like this? Now, granted, there was, it was a very naive time.

So I'm sure these people were hope we're believing them, but they had a lot at stake if they didn't and you know, what's weird is he rarely wore a mask. He which I also find really weird because here's a guy who was pretty well known in the, um, the town. And I don't know how big the town is, but I mean, to be involved in all the things that he was doing and to not wear a mask, I am shocked that people didn't, weren't able to identify him.

But what everybody said was he's like a 5, 9, 5, 8 white guy with dark hair, big deal. Like, I mean, nothing interesting or out of the ordinary. Um, so really hard to track him down. Okay. So let's go back to Joseph Otero, Joseph Matera bag on his head, Dennis Raiders, centrally stuff, stuff, suffocating him, sitting there watching this guy. Die. That's what Dennis Rader liked to do. That's what got him off.

He liked to watch the last breath come out of people's faces, whether it be a man, a woman or a child, and that's what, that's what got him off. That's why he masturbated to it. Um, and I'm assuming that it had something to do with him practicing autoerotic asphyxiation himself, but he knew what that felt like. And it got him to the, you know, all amped up or tweaked up. He called it teed up, I think is what he would refer to it as he was teed up. And he had to do something about it.

Um, this guy, by the way, this fucker, he, I don't think there's a Pintu. Uh, w w bad enough for this guy, this guy, I think at the time, cause he's 10 consecutive licenses. Um, I mean, I would have said to death for sure, but I think at the time Kansas didn't have the death penalty in place.

There are also some people who say that he murdered other people and he didn't tell the police about those people, because that would have put him around the time where Kansas did have the death penalty and he didn't want to disclose that. So all kinds of crazy. So, sorry, back to the here's this dad on the ground bag on his head suffocating. He passes out Dennis Rader, think this is a member. This is his first time that sort of enacting this on humans. And so Dennis Rader thinks he's died.

So moving on, the fun is gone. He moves on to the wife, Juliet or Tara. Now again when remember actually no, no, no, it was, it was reversed. He actually, he actually killed or thought he killed Julie first, before he attacked Joseph. And it was Sonia Meza-Leon: Julie. Well, both of them did multiple times. I think they came to over and over again because he just didn't know how much he had to, like, you know, just strangle them.

Um, it was, I think, more than four, um, it sounded like, and I don't know who could attest to that except Dennis Rader. So, I mean, he's, he's telling his own story, but he struggled with it and he was, he admitted that his, he went back and forth between them multiple times. And he, and then I think what, and one time Joseph doTERRA came back to, he had bitten a hole through the plastic bag.

So Dennis, Dennis Rader took off the plastic bag, put on a t-shirt and then put the plastic bag on top of that. So he couldn't bite through it. So they went back and forth with this quite a number of times, which must've been horrific again. It's awful horrible. Horrible. So again, so those have been Julie either dead or unconscious, but pretty sure dead, um, hard to tell because I think they were there, you know, I don't know how long they were in the house before someone found them.

Probably not that long because the kid who found them was, um, I did 10th grade. So he would've been staying there. Certainly. Um, again, these Joseph and Julia, um, you know, suffocated, strangled, Now that we have those two folks, either dead or incapacitated. He turns to the Joseph Jr. Who is nine years old. He takes Joseph the nine-year-old into another bedroom. He ties him. Or if he's not already tied, he, it appears that they think he laid this young man, this little boy.

Um, and this little boy was conscious and I don't know if it was mouth was gagged or not, but he's eyes were open. He was aware Dennis Rader could see the terror in his face. And I just can't find them how you would do that to a child, not only to dentistry. Do that to a child, but he had got off on watching the blast breath come out of Joseph.

And he, the, like I said, the police have some thought that cause there are there, I guess chair marks in the carpet that he pretty much put the chair on over Joseph or around him or near him and just sat right there and look straight in his face while he died. Oh, what's so awful. Yeah. But if you're trying to get, if that's what you get off on, that's what you want to see what I don't understand. And it sounds to me like that most of these people had a t-shirt on over the plastic bag.

So that's a little conflicting because if you're, what are you seeing, if you can't see their face, when they're dying, you just waiting for them to stop breathing. And then, you know, that's a little different than looking someone in the eyes as they die. So my thought is. I don't know. I don't remember what Dennis Rader says, or if he's saying it accurately, but I'm not sure if he ever discloses, which he puts on first with Joseph.

He definitely said that he put the t-shirt on first because he didn't want them to buy through the plastic anymore. That's just, that's all he kept coming back to life. Uh, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, sure. But while, well, I, I didn't hear anything about the t-shirts actually, um, certainly about the, you know, the other stuff he discussed, but I didn't know about the t-shirts. So that's, that's brand new information that is Sonia Meza-Leon: more disturbing. Oh, rebel.

Um, Brittany, do you want to tell us about, so again, we know that little Joe Little Joseph died. Do you want to tell us about Josephine the last that's the only members. Yeah. So, so Josephine to me, as you said, the Otero family is probably for you. The worst one for me, it's also the worst one. And it Josephine in particular because I just found this absolutely disgusting.

So after Joseph, Julie and Joe Jr, have all been killed, he takes Josephine into the basement with her arms and legs tied up behind her and hangs her from a pipe. And she is strangled and dies hanging from a pipe while he. Masturbating next to her watching her die. And semen was actually found in the basement next to her body at the crime scene. Now we said he never raped anyone.

He never sexually assaulted anyone, but he left DNA, which at the time was not known, but he left his mark and showed how severely, sexually driven he was. And to an 11 year old girl, this is the part that would, this is the first one. Well, I guess she's the fourth one, but the first crime for her spree.

And it's, it's the most horrendous to me because like you said, not only is it killing children, it's getting sexual satisfaction out of doing so this, this man, who's a stand up citizen member of the church. Uh, at the time his wife was pregnant with his first daughter, Carrie. And like, he was this amazing family man who just, it was, I, I was so disgusted and the left is like I said, he left his evidence. He didn't really clean up.

He, he, uh, uh, wanted it to be a disgusting scene that officers would find that would make the press. And, uh, it would be and unique a unique crime that he could take credit for. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. So this is, this is the beginning. This is the beginning of, you know, BTK. Um, all right. So moving on to our next murder slash victims, more than one. I think before we move on to the next victim, we have to talk about his first d'Elegance in reaching out for fame and taunting the police.

Because after the Hewitt, he was actually, I believe seen leaving the house, but the person that saw him could not give an accurate description. And since he didn't feel like he was giving, getting enough press, he sent a letter to the television station, K a K E in Kansas, uh, admitting that he was responsible. And again, this guy not very intelligent, always had poor spelling and grammar. He wrote that he wants to be known as BTK for bind, torture, kill, except he didn't even spell it.

Right. He grew up bind Totour you left out the R. Kill. So this guy was, I just thought it was, it was an early sign of what seemed to be a lot of mix ups, mess ups of things that I feel like you almost should have been caught sooner for. And then that didn't give him enough press. So he called a news editor at a newspaper and said, Hey, go to the library because I left a letter in engineering book and he was hoping someone would find it.

And so this guy went and in the, uh, letter, he again, claims responsibility for the murders. And he said, you will know me as bind them, torture them, kill them. B T K. Sonia Meza-Leon: But L well, let's go back a minute because he, that letter was left and, well, I don't know when it was left, but he called them and let them know that letter was available in October of 1974. Right. But he actually had killed someone in April of 1974.

So he killed another person and damaged her brother before the letter. And I think that's where he got frustrated was that there were two sets of, you know, crimes. And that's where he's like, what do I got to do to get some attention around it? Yeah. Good point. So that's where we start. That's where we talked about Kathryn Bright and her brother, Kevin Bright, who is a survivor of BTK and who has been on multiple interviews talking about what he went through.

He saw the guy, he saw Dennis Rader. He saw his sister die. Um, he. Came back to live multiple times and somehow ran out. Um, but let's talk a little bit about what, what happened with Kathryn Bright in her home? Kathryn Bright was Burt murdered in 1974, April 4th, 1974. She was 21. Her brother, Kevin was with her and he was 19, uh, essentially done. And Ray, Dennis Rader broke into the house, um, from the front porch and he hid in the bedroom, which is what he would typically do.

And sometimes for quite a long time, um, she arrived home and Raider wasn't expecting her brother to be there too. So of course he came rushing into the room, you know, gun out, um, the whole nine yards. He told them the same shenanigans, right? He was at war criminal. I just needed to get out of there. He needed money. He forced the two into the bedroom. Um, they tied each other up essentially. And then, um, He took Kevin into the other bedroom. Now this poor guy is still alive.

Like, oh my God talking about this. Um, they takes Kevin to the other room so that he can have his way with Catherine, Kevin breaks out of the, the cord or the, whatever he was tied up with. He runs in there to the other room to try and help assist her in Dennis Rader shoots him right in the face, which is crazy. Yeah. It doesn't like to use guns, but again, he was using it as intimidation. Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, it wasn't intimidation.

He needed, he needed to get his brother away from the Kevin Bright away from, because that was in a way they were, I mean, he was going to be without man. Totally. But I think that, I don't think he had any intention of using the gun. It was meant as intimidation, but he ha he was forced into a position. She had to use it, but that's not how he got satisfaction out of. Yeah, Sonia Meza-Leon: no, definitely. He was only using it. I mean, he didn't expect Kevin to be there.

Um, that's, what's crazy about it, you know, so he was thrown off by this. Um, so of course he shoots Kevin in the head. Kevin goes down, he thinks he's dead. Apparently Kevin's not dead. Um, Catherine, um, you know, also put up a really big fight and he ultimately strangled her. Um, he, but it didn't work. He, I don't know if it was because she was so young, but you know, he, he, he couldn't control her as much as he wanted to.

So he, um, ultimately ended up stabbing her to death, but her and her brother were very, very, very challenging for Dennis Rader. I mean, it was, um, not an easy, um, you know, not an easy murder for sure. Yeah. Maybe at, you know, in, remember Kevin Bright runs out, he escapes, he there's a lot of conversations with him. Yeah. There's tons of interviews. I have a feeling that's why Dennis Dennis Rader stopped.

And then his next murder wouldn't occur until 1977, because he's probably scared that this guy who had seen him right in his face, like literally standing there with him, talking to him, you know, there's a guy out there who can, you know, who can essentially identify him. I have a feeling that Dennis Rader stopped or waited because of that. And then he got his courage up and he couldn't control his factor X and that's when he went back out again.

But, um, yeah, Catherine, Catherine Bright, uh, put up a heck of a fight and ultimately that one didn't go as well. As I know, I think that Dennis Rader had expected. I don't know if he masturbated. At that scene or not, but it sounds to me like it was quite a debacle in, you know, he was just trying to get out of there and to think that he would have someone out there running around who knew what he looked like, but when they asked the guy multiple times and he was shot in the face, by the way.

So the police really couldn't believe and they didn't know. And, and Kevin couldn't really say either. He was like, okay, 5, 8, 5, 9 white guy, you know, I mean, what looks like everybody else? You know, how do you, how do you pin that down? I mean, it was, it was tough. So that, that one's a, that one's a tough one. And I think it's really interesting to watch some of those, um, those interviews, Kevin Bryant was on Larry King live and he talked a bit about how that, how it went down.

And if I'm not mistaken with the exception of some of the children who witnessed the murder of their parents in the later murders, Kevin Brightspot any one of the only witnesses that's still alive. So, uh, two more murders down a horrible. So now, well, or, sorry, sorry. One more. Yes. Yeah. So, so we're at five murders and then once Sonia Meza-Leon: survivor. So moving on to 1977, this is when, for some reason in there, uh, Dennis Rader takes a break, not Brittany. You had said.

You had said that his daughter, he, his wife was pregnant with his daughter was at 1974. Exactly. So after actually he found out that his wife was pregnant. Um, I think she was so I know she was pregnant during the Otero murders. I don't know if he knew she was pregnant during your Terra martyrs, but he certainly found out at minimum after the Catherine Bright murder. And he was so excited to be a father.

Like he, as I said before, like, I feel like he had this like empty, nervous energy that drove him to commit crimes when he didn't have anything else to do. But he was so excited to be a father. He decided I got to turn my life around. I got, gotta be a good dad. And so he took like three years off, like you said, he so BTK. He was so proud. He left all of this evidence. He claimed excitement for like, he, he claimed responsibility for it. And one of the notarized.

But then he wouldn't dormant for three years because he was so dedicated to be a doting father. But ultimately that factor X crept back up and he couldn't suppress it anymore. He even referred to it as a monster or his evil. And so 1977 BTK strikes again against Shirley violin. I think that's how you pronounce her name. Sonia Meza-Leon: I'm not sure. Yep. That's right. Shirley violin. So here's another instance of a young child.

Child's not a victim here, but he uses the child essentially to bait the mother. He's trolling apart. I Sonia Meza-Leon: think he's a victim. You don't think he's a victim? Well, I mean, he's totally a victim, but he's not, he's he, wasn't a victim of violence set the word. I don't even know the word to say Sonia Meza-Leon: he's a surplus. I want to survive. Uh, yeah, he was held hostage. I mean, he was, he was held hostage.

So this, this little kid, you know, he's, he's playing at the park and as we always say, and totally true stranger danger, uh, Mr. Raider comes up to this kid and shows him a picture of his wife and kids and says, do you recognize them? Uh, and the kid is like, Nope, no I don't. And I think what Raider was doing was trying to ultimately see this kid and, uh, follow him to his mother. Well, he never found the mother, so he just kept on kind of stalking the kid and the kid goes home.

Raider takes his time. He's, he's very good at stalking women because in the three years that he kind of took his break, even though he wasn't violent, he. I was following women and stalking them. So he's watching this woman from the streets. He's watching this kid, he decides he's going to take his chance. So he goes and knocks on the door, the kid answers. And then he's essentially like, Hey, you remember me? I showed you those pictures.

Well, I'm actually a detective and I need to talk to your mom. Sonia Meza-Leon: So, so you know, what's interesting about this kid. How old is this kid? Brittany? Six years old, I believe. Yep. He's little. He's a little boy. He's a little kid. There were three, there were three kids in the house at the time that Shirley Vian was killed. It's so awful. And the kid who, the kid, uh, they enter, I saw an interview with this kid, the six year old kid, who's now grown up.

He saw everything and he blamed himself as an adult. I mean, he's six years old. There's nothing he could have done. He again, he had his gun that he brought for intimidation. He forced the three kids into the bathroom and locked them in the bathroom. Uh, Ben, while he attacked their mother, uh, he told her that he was going to rape her, uh, and, but not kill her. And so she again, seemed to be compliant.

Uh, they even smoked a cigarette together before he, she let him, well, she believed was letting him rape her. Uh, but of course he bound her. He put a cord around her neck and strangled her and then ejaculated into her panties. Sonia Meza-Leon: So hold on a second. So surely violin is sitting, I mean, who said that he, they smoked a cigarette together. I believe he did. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Right, right. I can't imagine that. I'm like, what.

I mean, I guess I, well, I know, but like, if, again, I mean, I think these, I think these people unfortunately are thinking, okay, if I comply, I'll be okay. And so this woman is thinking my kids are in the bathroom. As long as they stay safe, I'll be compliant with this man, but he's not going to kill me. Of course we know that's not what happened. I'm just trying to, I'm trying to get in the mind of the victim to just think why they would come. They would work in the way that they.

Sonia Meza-Leon: I probably thinking that, you know, doing whatever she could to make sure kids are safe, who were locked in a bathroom and something happens to her, then he's probably going to hurt them as well. The other thing is he doesn't have a mask on again. So, you know, the likelihood of her letting him go, yeah, the likelihood of her letting you know him letting her go, it's pretty slim. But I guess she's not thinking in those terms, even though you've had. Previous murders happen.

And, and I'm assuming people remember that those were three years. Those were three years ago now. So you kind of think that if you're living in that time, it's a little bit forgotten. You think that it's moved on it can't, it can't be the same Sonia Meza-Leon: thing, I guess. I mean, I just, I don't know. I would be on alert. I mean, they're in Wichita, Kansas.

I mean, I, to, I apparently before this, there was very little crime or very little, um, you know, murder happening in which doc, Kansas. So all of a sudden it amped up like for, you know, three years in the seventies, I'm surprised, especially at the extent that which the kids were killed. Um, but you know, cause at that point they were like, The it's not just women, it's kids, it's a free for all. It could be men as well, back to Shirley VN. So she has a cigarette. They're doing whatever.

Um, you know, as you said, he ejaculated into some panties, but didn't officially rape her. Um, and then the kids somehow, or another, there was an eight year old, a six year old. And what a younger kid, I think, I think the other child was younger. Sonia Meza-Leon: These kids smart. Well, first off they could see out the door, the door wasn't all the way. Shut the guy. Demonstrator tied it shut so they could pull it a bit open and they did, and they watch their mother be killed.

Um, then of course I'm sure that terrified them. So they broke the bathroom window out and they were able to escape. So now we've got four people who could identify Dennis Rader. A couple of, of three of them are children, but still, you know, you've got, you've got people and they were able to interview these poor kids and, and I'm sure gave them a lot of counseling. I mean, it must've been horrific because I think she was a single mother.

So I don't know where these kids went after she died, but you know, this, this turned her life around. I don't know. I don't know if there's anything more traumatic that you could ever experience in your life. Of course, it's life around. I mean, it's unreal. Sonia Meza-Leon: Um, especially if this guy harbors the guilt for this, because that's so tragic. So later in 1977, again, he is, uh, he can't control his factor X anymore.

So he decides to move in on one of the many women that he was stalking and he begins to have an obsession with Nancy Fox. So like many times you see in scary home invasion movies that are terrifying, the criminal cuts the phone line. The beginning of the nut of nightmares for generations caused by horror movies. He broke into her duplex and we did her there for a while for her to get home from work. He brought in his gun.

He told her, which is oddly, I think kind of true that he had a sexual dysfunction. And the only way to fix it was to rape her. Now that part is crazy. Of course, that's ridiculous. But if we jump back to when he served his time in the Vietnam war, he actually hired a sex coach because he had, I dunno if it was true sexual dysfunction, but he felt that he was terrible at sex and needed guidance.

I don't know if it's what we would consider like EDD today, or if it was really just, he wasn't as good as he hoped he would be, but he really believed that he needed help. So I think he was actually kind of calling up back on his early years as an excuse to attack. And in his words, rape this moment, which of course he would never do. They both changed clothes or took off their clothes, got into the bedroom and he prayed for, uh, proceeded to bind and torture and string.

He even told her who she, who he was and confess to his previous murders to her. Sonia Meza-Leon: And then like, not like it couldn't get any worse, but at this time let's recall that Dennis Rader was working for ADT alarm company. I know isn't that crazy? Why not? You know, I mean, talk about having access and information that he would really find useful to be able to commit these crimes.

So on his way to work the next day, um, uh, unfortunately it was when they found Nancy, Joe, and they found her because he called them and told them that there was a murder at her address who she was and that he had murdered her. He called, I mean, he called, I think he called the, um, he called the news. Who did he call the newspaper? He called the police. He actually, he, no, I think he called Sonia Meza-Leon: the police. Oh, he did. He called the local police. He called the police.

And again, Dennis, not the most smartest, most intelligent guy he said, and I'm going to quote this. Yes. You will find a whole aside at 8 43 south Pershing Nancy Fox. That is correct. So he's trying to get caught. The police know are on high alert. He drops, the phone starts running away and I believe it was, it was a, a fire fighter, a first responder that actually picked up the phone and continue talking to the police and may have seen him running away.

So there's potentially another Sonia Meza-Leon: witness. Yeah. But like white guy, five, nine, you know, dark hair. It's. He's so sloppy. Well, I'm, you know, like I said, I'm really shocked that he didn't get caught so much earlier because he was sloppy. And because he's like, uh, you know, I mean, how did no one ever notice this guy had a, no one ever be able to identify him? He was fairly well known. I mean, he was the leader of a church. He was a leader of the Cub Scouts.

I mean, he knew people, he was respected, um, or at least early on. We'll talk a little bit later when he's a compliance officer with, which is when he really starts taking things out on, on hid, the people he's working with. I mean, it was kind of terrifying. So right around this time, again, BTK is feeling like he's on top of the world because he has successfully murdered another person.

Um, apparently he must have forgotten about the guy that he left, uh, live Kevin Bright, because if he was going to say something or cause I'm sure Kevin Bright, you know, they interviewed and I'm sure that they publicized that he didn't have any information. So that must have been a sigh of relief for Dennis Rader. Right? So then at some point after he kills Nancy, Joe Fox Raider sends a sarcastic poem to the newspaper and he does sign it BTK.

But for some reason, the news in it's a, it's a, it's a, uh, it's a poem about his murdering Shirley, um, which was one of his previous murders. Right? I think it was the one before Nancy and he sends it to the, the newspaper. Really even notice it, they send it to the classified section and then it doesn't have any money with it. Cause I guess that was around December. Right. So I guess they're thinking, you know, early 78.

So probably before Valentine's eighth, they thought it was a Valentine's day thing. So they were, they didn't, it didn't include any money, so they're not going to run the ad, but they had it another time where they had something and signed by BTK where they just, you know, um, you know, they had gotten multiple letters from him by now. Somebody should have put this together. I mean, it's all in Wichita, right? So it's not even a matter of it being a different jurisdiction. It's all the same.

I think the police struggled with trying to, um, even those went on for so long. I don't know if they didn't have enough manpower or they weren't focused or they didn't have, I mean, they, they certainly didn't publicize the information. It sounds to me like they had a moment where, and maybe they didn't, but Raider, you know, is upset with them because he's not giving them enough.

And it leads them to believe in what he says to them is, you know, I'm going to do this again, and now he does it again. And the police do blame themselves a bit for not stopping it because they think if they acknowledged him in the Shirley, um, the Shirley murder, then they wouldn't, he it's possible. He wouldn't have murdered Nancy Fox surely, uh, via, I doubt that. I think he still would've murdered Nancy Fox. I honestly, I mean, we know that he progresses. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Uh, the w here's another area where I feel like he should have gotten caught, which has no shame or blame here, but he, he wrote a poem called Shirley locks that he sent to the paper and his wife actually read that poem and commented to a friend. That person writes like Dennis, they have poor spelling and grammar, just like he does. So Sonia Meza-Leon: she had no suspicion, but she recognized Sonia Meza-Leon: it.

Well, she caught him writing that letter and he told her that he was writing a free as criminal justice class. And yeah, no, she, not only did she see it in the newspaper later, but she saw it in his hands when he was writing it, he continued to write it. And then he went ahead and sent it and he talk and he told her that he was, it was, he was writing it for his criminal justice class about BTK. So he told his wife there's a letter in his hand was written about BTK, which was.

No, that was his wife again. There's no you in a million years. I don't care if I was his wife. I wouldn't have known either. I wouldn't have thought about it. I mean, they've also got his phone call. They've got this voice, they released this voice. They released that recording a bit later, but again, I don't know why they waited. They needed some, the police really needed some strategy here.

I don't think that they, um, they had a really clear strategy behind what they were trying to achieve other than solving it. And I don't know if they just really, they thought about it and they really plotted as well as they probably should have to actually make this happen. So, so again, Nancy, Jo Fox, 25 years old murder, December 8th, 1977 in Wichita. And she was strangled as well. Victim number Sonia Meza-Leon: eight. Yeah, we are number eight.

So, uh, from 1978, December of 78, through 1985, or until 1985, Dennis was able to quell his factor X and resumed his activities in the community and in the church. And his son was super into boy Scouts. So he became a troop leader who was active in the community until he was unable to keep that factor down and saw an opportunity being a troop leader with his son on an outing of camping outing.

So victim number eight is Marine hedge, a widow and neighbor, uh, from down the street of Dennis Rader. So in this story on April 27th, he led his boy scout troop out on a camping trip with a couple other chaperones and. Said that he was going to go to bed early. He took this opportunity while the kids were still up doing camping stuff and drove his car to a bowling alley of all places had a beer then pretended to be drunk and call the taxi to take him to Marines home.

When he got to her home, he did what his become his emo cutting her phone line, snuck in through the back and waited for her to get home. This is extremely similar. Profiling and activity to Nancy Fox. A man came home with her, which he wasn't expecting, but left Dennis came out of the, uh, the, of hiding after the man left and choked 53 year old Marine to death. Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh my God.

Uh let's I'm going to back up a little bit and talk about Marine because I had a couple of things that are really important to say about Marine. Um, number one, she's older than her other victim, his other victims. Um, but that's, he was aging too. So that actually doesn't surprise me that much. She was 53 and most of his other victims were, uh, 40, uh, when it comes to women and things like that. Well, I thought they were like in their twenties. Well, there were a variety of ages.

Sonia Meza-Leon: Actually you're right. No, no. They were in their thirties in there. Yeah. You're out 38, 28, 25. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. So yeah, you're right. You're totally right about, he was 40 now, so he was getting older, so yeah, you're right. I mean, he was like, he was actually almost like attacking women similar in age to him. And now he's 40, she's 53, but he he's aging.

Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the reasons too is because he may have, I mean, his ability to control them, you know, as if they're younger, it may not be that easy anymore. What's interesting. A couple of other things that are interesting about Maureen first off his entire family, newer, she lived about six houses down, which is pretty ballsy. If you asked me, Dennis knew this woman, um, you know, she, I think she lived alone.

He, I cannot believe that he chose his neighbor six doors down to stock and then figure out this plan. It was right. Yeah. And his daughter recalls when this woman died and nobody tied it to BTK at all. Even though it seemed fairly obvious, right? At least maybe the daughter at the time didn't tie it. But you know, it, if somebody dies six doors down from me, I'm going to freaking remember it. It's going to be a thing. And it's like, you're your friend, you know, their family friend or whatever.

Um, all right. So backing up to, to your point, Dennis re and that's why I wanted to say that was because what's important about that is that's why he had to figure out another way to get to her house. Besides just walking down the street or taking a direct route, he needed an alibi. So it was a Cub scout thing. Then he had to come back into town, drop his car off at the bowling alley. Like you said, it takes a cab pretends, like he's drunk. Oh, let me get out right here.

So he has the cab dropper drop him off somewhere close to her house, but not in front of it. So nobody would have been the wiser. Right. Also, I want to sort of lay the scene of it. This is a 53 year old woman, a woman that he knows a nice woman. Apparently he stands there in hides for quite a long time and then waits for her to go to sleep. And then the middle of the night, he turns on the bathroom light and the closet light. Well, I'm sure she's pooping, you know, bricks by now.

Cause she's like, oh my God, there's somebody in my house. He comes in and he lays down next to her in bed. So freaking gross. So yeah, same old bullshit that he always pulls. Like you said, Brittany, you know, he strangled her, but this is a woman that he knew. This is what is perplexing to me. Not only did he know her and not only did he murder her, but he defiled her. He took her dead. To his church. He, he had it set up at the church. He had like black plastic and all this shit.

And so he was ready for her. And so he took her there and he took this to this nice woman. And go ahead. He was president of the church council. So he had full access to the church whenever he wanted. So this wasn't like a weird thing for him to go into it. I mean, it might be weird to go in the middle of the night regardless, but it's not like he was this guy breaking in and that had w that shouldn't have access. It was okay. That he was there when he was there.

Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, yeah, but he still brought a woman in and then back out. Yeah, terrifying. So he brings poor Marine and he's got this planned ahead of time that he is going to take photographs of her. And he ties her up in a variety of bondage, you know, I guess positions. And he takes photographs of her. And then when he's done, he takes her body and he dumps her in a remote location. I don't think they find her for like nine days, this poor woman. I mean, just so, so terrible.

What's of so weird about this to me is he's almost treating her with reverence and taking these pictures and then he just decides to dispose of her. Like it it's like kind of polar opposites, the way that he treats her. I don't really, I mean, I don't understand what's going on in his head, but I just, to me, this was, it was especially weird. I think this was the weirdest strangest one for me, because it was just a bunch of activities that don't seem to have.

Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. Well, remember this was when he had come back from his hiatus too. So of course he may have been a little off his game. He maybe was teed up, like he says, you know, with factor X. Oh. By the way, he, um, I'm pretty sure that he nicknamed his penis. Um, yeah. That's okay. I don't know. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah, no, it's important though. Oh, my phone died. You have to look it up on your computer. I can look it up right now. So, um, S S B T or something is what it is.

Okay. Well, uh, while I look that up on my computer and I should probably block my search history for this, um, you know, what's on you, we're going so strong. I think this needs to be a two-parter. So, um, I think we should wrap this up right now. We actually have gone over an hour, but, um, we will come back and talk about his last killings. And then of course, how he ultimately got himself caught, which was another horrible act of hubris. Anything else you want to add?

Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, I think you guys can look forward to the second episode where I'm going to have a lot of strong opinions about Dennis Rader and my feelings for him as a human being more than they've already had the victims through. Yes, I, it will. It gets worse. It gets worse.

I can't, I can't even believe that it gets worse, but it gets worse because, and we'll, we'll talk about it in a minute, but we'll talk about the ninth victim and then we'll also talk about again, how he got caught. So stay tuned, scar lettuce. All right. Well, um, thanks for listening. Stick around for the end to hear from some of our other favorite shows that we like to give shout outs to you. We always love supporting independent podcasters.

Uh, keep in mind, we are part of the pod all the time podcast network, check them out on social media when you're checking us out. All right. We are the ladies of Scarlet. Oh. And, uh, Dennis Raiders nickname for his penis. Keep killing it. Nana Checko, a couple other podcasters that support us and we want to give them some Sonia Meza-Leon: support. Hey fellow Scarlet, true crime listeners. I'm CC the host of a new true crime podcast.

Sooner state, true crime as a born and bred Oki I'll cover cases based in my wonderful home state of Oklahoma, the term sooner actually refers to tutors in the land run. My state's very first true crime. New episodes are released twice a month in apple podcasts and most podcasts apps or visit our website, anchor.fm/crime state to listen now. So come away with me to my crime state on the Sooners state, true crime podcast, and please stay sooner, safe out there.

Y'all hi everyone. I'm Ariel Cooksey, host of malice. When violent acts occur, we tend to think the predators are monsters. Surely no human could do such things, but if we're honest, only humans commit malicious crime. And if you're like me, you want to know why to find out. Join me at malice, wherever you listen to podcasts by, Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall. I'm one of those two musics that he now will want a podcast about the good, the bad and the dark side of nine 11.

Dispatching me and my co-hosts are 9 1 1 dispatchers with over 60 years of expanse. Join us as we play 9 1, 1 calls and discuss them. Oh, did I mention that we get dark 9 1 1. What's your emergency? How many people did you Sonia Meza-Leon: shoot? yeah, my husband and they stopped my daughter and laid me. you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at music city nine 11, and we're downloadable on every podcast platform.

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