Hello everyone. Welcome to the hourly to exit podcast. I am so pleased to have radians hairs with me today. I radiant
Hi, Aaron, thank you for having me.
that is such a beautiful name. Tell me the origin of your name.
Thank you. I mean, long story short, my parents both have our names. Rhonda and Rodney, and they wanted their firstborn child to have an RNA that was similar field to faith, hope her patients, and it looked in the dictionary, all the word radiance. And while here I am.
well, that's, that's a great result. We have all he names in my family, but they're not nearly as interesting as radius.
Yeah,
So we get earnest Elizabeth, another Ernest, Edward, and Aaron. So
we have Rhonda, Rodney radiance and Revi.
Everyone can share, share monogram purchase. Right? So I am so excited about this episode. I'm going to let you introduce yourself and then we're going to do.
Okay, well, thank you again for having me. I am radiant Harris. I'm the founder and managing attorney of Radiant's IP law, and I help emerging businesses protect, monetize, and grow profitable brands with trademark.
Awesome. Awesome. Now I discovered and say, you know, first of all, we're kind of neighbors. We live right across the Potomac river from each other. Um, we haven't met yet in person, but we're going to have to fix that very soon. Um, but I discovered radians, cause I read about her in some, it was, it was a local magazine, I believe where you are a rising star or shooting star or a superstar or some kind of stars. All I know is that you were some kind of star.
And so I knew I had to reach out to you immediately. You know, I am. Uh, rabidly anti dabbler, you know, I'm pro-vaccine and high dabbler. And so I love to talk to experts in other areas of law to, you know, kind of who really have that deep expertise so they can, talk to the audience. So, this is one of those topics. Um, I would really like to keep it broader.
Like sometimes we'll have someone and we'll just kind of go into one little niche, but this one, I think, you know, people are so interested in the topic of trademarks and just to get a broad, you know, 3000 foot view of it as well as also kind of also dig into its application to the expertise based business. So. Start from the top. Can you share just generally, what is intellectual property, what the different types are, and then specifically what trademarks are.
Sure. So, I mean, intellectual property or IP is a broad umbrella term that encompasses four types or four areas. So you've got trademarks, copyrights. Trade secrets and patents. And so trademarks protect your brand. So your business name, brand name, product, and service names, taglines logos, basically anything that serves as a source identifier for your business, meaning a source identifier. Is that when someone sees it in the marketplace, do they automatically associate that name? That logo?
With your particular offerings. The second category is copyright, which protects copyright protects content. So any of the content you create, written materials, photographs, videos, artwork, music, anything that I guess is the original expression of ideas in tangible form would be considered or subject to copyright protection. Then you've got trade secrets. What does anything that is proprietary or meant to be kept a secret?
It could be a business formula or recipes, business, and financial information. Anything that's meant to be proprietary or kept a secret would be subject to trade secrets. And then you've got patents which protect inventions. So if you're creating any inventive inventions, then you would be seeking patent protection for that.
Oh, question what Brian, when you mentioned that a tangible form and people ask questions about software, is that considered tangible form.
Yes. Yeah for, I mean, you can protect, depending on the software, it could be subject to patent protection, depending on the software can be a subject to copyright. So you can copyright like the software coding, you can, um, copyright like sort of like the look and feel the look, not the field, the look of the software. Um, you can protect it from the trademark perspective. The name of the software would be subject to trademark protection.
So there's absolutely there's multiple intellectual properties within software. I would say.
Yeah, absolutely. So. I hear a lot that people want to trademark like everything. And obviously you've mentioned a lot of categories that are eligible for trademark protection, but at what point in the business do they really need to start seriously thinking about trademark from the moment they think of a business name or a certain name or product name, or is there some kind of inflection point where they really need to get serious about.
I think you should protect your trademarks prior to use or adoption. And, and that's important, particularly if you're, you know, really serious about your business and this is more than just a hobby. Um, it's definitely important to pursue trademark protection before you actually start using are adopting it, or at least at the very beginning. Uh, the reason why it's so important to do that is because. You want to make sure that you're not committing trademark infringement?
So a lot of people just kind of conjure up this name in their head and I'm like, ah, I love that. And they just start plastering it over everywhere with not without understanding that there are legal implications to doing that a serious legal implications. And so that's one of the reasons. And then secondly, um, it gives you that peace of mind as you're growing your business, that, you know, Now we'll have, you know, exclusively you'll ownership in the name, because that's the thing.
When you don't have that trademark protection in the, your business name, like you don't have any rights, you don't, you're not able to prevent competitors from using a similar name as yours or selling competing products or services. So there's a lot of legal importance to securing a trademark prior to use in adoption. So I would do, I would say doing it sooner rather than later is the way that.
And how much time do they have before they start using it? There's like, isn't there a time period that they have to start using it. If they do it
So there are two ways you can file trademark applications. You can file based on current use. So meaning you've already been using it and you can show evidence that you've been using it as such, and then you can also file based on an intent to use. So with intent to use application, you can file those applications. Before you started using it. So at this point it could just be an idea, like, I know I'm going to use this name. I know that these are the products and services that I'm offering.
I want to make sure that I have this name on lock. So then you filed the intent to use and what those applications you have essentially up to like three, three and a half years. Um, in some cases to start using the trademark before it will eventually, you know, go abandoned, but assuming you're planning on launching something within the next 24 to 36 months, you could definitely start with an intent to use trademark application.
Are they different processes and different costs.
similar process. The only difference is that you file your, evidence of trademark use when you file your application with the use space applications. Whereas with the intent to use, there's an additional step right before you're registered, or the U S PTO wants to see evidence of trademark use. So that's when you have to submit a. Statement of use and that's where you would give them. Okay. Here's the date.
We first started using the mark and here's the evidence that we're using the trademark as is applied for it. And with that additional step, there are additional filing fees. But other than that, it's the same process.
Okay. So the intent to use basically like put your flag, you know, stake in the ground flag on the
Take your gun. Yeah. Stake your claim. Like I'm using this name for this. And so it establishes priority as of the filing date. So while you're getting your business affairs on order, you know, okay, I've got this name on lock. Now, if you decide to get your business bears in order before doing it, and then later find out that someone. Has either filed before you, you know, has filed before you, then you're kind of out of luck.
So there is a lot of benefit to doing an intent to use, especially if you know that you're going to launch within a certain amount of time. And you're confident that that's going to be the, the name or the, you know, tagline that you want to use. And then the products and services as well.
Got it. So, you know, along with, you know, doctors having problems with Dr. Google lawyers have problems with.
Google university is you call it.
I was just talking to someone the other day, who had tried to get a trademark protection for her business name and it was rejected. And I asked her, when did you use a lawyer? And she said, no, but she watched some videos and she
YouTube or
me. Yes. If you read everything on the, uh, on the trademark office site. So tell us the benefits of using a lawyer,
I mean a lawyer we'll increase your chances of success like substantially. Um, I think it's like 60 or 70%. Increase and success with an attorney. Um, one thing's for sure. So increasingly I say over the last two years, the USB TL has been coming increasingly aggressive and initiating initial refusals. So about 70% of trademark applications that are filed will receive an initial work. W via an office action.
So as an attorney, when you're hiring an attorney, a good trademark attorney, not just somebody who's pretending they do trademarks are happening, having to do it on the side, but someone who specializes in trademark law will be able to do like a preliminary or full trademark search to make sure that there are, you know, no challenges or potential refusals that will come. Or if there are some that can help develop a strategy about how to either avoid them or get around them, should they arise?
So that's one they'll help, you know, minimize the risk of objection or refusals to they'll help you, um, correctly, identify. What categories to file the trademark application. And I know too many people who do the legal zoom and do the DIY, the DIY, and they incorrectly for whatever reason, choose the wrong class or the wrong descriptions of products and services that Delta doesn't actually cover what they're doing.
And so a trademark that doesn't reflect what you're actually offering in the marketplace is no good for you. And so. Um, attorney can help with that can help with the strategy and just handle the whole, all of the nuances that my new HSA of the lengthy 12 to 14 month process, it's a long process. And so a trademark attorney can handle that for you while you're able to like focus on making money, building your business, things of that nature versus trying to learn trademark law.
Exactly. So if you have been rejected, like, can you fix that?
There's some that we can fix. There's some that we can argue around and fix. It is better though, to, again, if, if we were hired at the beginning, we would, we were anticipating that this is going to happen. And so we had a strategy. Sometimes it's hard to find. Once it's happened because now we're cleaning up a big mess. So there are some times where we're able to fix it.
And other times where we're not where we have to tell them, no, we got to refile this, this is like, if you had hired an attorney, you would have seen that this would have been, you know, rejected kind of thing. So I would say it depends on the situation, but it's always best to do it right from the beginning. Cause sometimes it can't be fixed.
Absolutely. You mentioned classes and making sure you're categorizing in the right class. Tell us about what that is and why that.
Right. So there, I guess, for the person who wants to learn more about how they find trademark classes, there's a trademark ID manual on the U S PTO website where it's. Approved descriptions of goods and services. So like if you have a mobile app or if you have a book series or anything, how are you doing, um, you know, courses, you go into the manual and you're, uh, you're basically, it helps you identify approved descriptions that will be approved.
Um, and so that's the best way to do go about it, but you want to make sure that your trademark applications. Reflects what you were doing. Cause there's been some that say, you know, they go and they file for example, clothing and apparel that they filed for clothing and apparel. And it's like, I'm like, why did you file for that? Are you, are you trying to sell a clothing line? They're like, oh no, we're just selling promotional.
T-shirts like my, my business is Radiant's IP law and I just give away, you know, promotional shirts or Radiant's IP law. Well, you wouldn't, you wouldn't secure a trademark for that too. That's not a clothing brand. You're just using it for promotional purposes. So there are certain things that are not actually, I guess, noticeable or to the lay person, like as what constitutes trademark use or what you would file for.
But the trademark ID manual at least helps with coming up with approved descriptions, but you still have to make sure that the application reflects what you were doing.
Yeah. I would love to hear like the craziest where you have about trademarks, but, but first, when, when they're thinking about their names and you're helping them work through, okay, this is too generic. I know there's different levels of protection. Like even if you get a registration that there's different levels of protection on my right there. Can you talk us through that?
Yeah, sure. So not all trademarks are created equal. There are some trademarks that are stronger than others. So like, you know, the trademark, when you think about in the marketplace, like Exxon, Google, clean ax, Adidas, Ikea where there consisting of invented words that don't exist in the English dictionary diluted the best and the strongest and inherently distinctive trademark. So if you come up with a name that's like invented, that's not in the dictionary.
Like those are the best trademarks because one, um, it's very distinctive. So there'll likely you won't have any issues with like, you know, likelihood of confusion, refusal, which is like, likely to confusion is the standard for trademark and frame. Your chances of that happening are lower because you invented the word. So then the next level underneath that are when you use words in the English dictionary, but apply it to something completely unrelated.
So think of like apple for computers camel for cigarettes, again, completely unrelated. Those are also good trademarks. They're distinct. Because they're unrelated now, as you go down now, you're getting closer to like, suggestive are also good straight marks, but it's, you're, you're on the fence of it almost being descriptive.
So when your name is really descriptive, so meaning the name describes the nature of the products, nature, feature, or characteristic of the products and services that you are offering, then, then it is descriptive and descriptive names are difficult to trademark unless you can show. Basically that you've acquired distinctiveness. So what does that mean?
Acquired distinctiveness means that you've used that descriptive name exclusively and continuously in commerce for at least five years, so much so that it's become distinctive or unique for your products and services only then can you then secure trademark protection for that, but as you see, it's a process.
Have you ever seen that happen in real life?
We've gone to all the time. We were like, oh, I've been offering this name for five years and I'm like, oh perfect. We can, we can do a card distinctiveness. And so when you want, you can do the acquired distinctiveness. You can't receive a descriptiveness, uh, rejection. Now, if it's generic, meaning like, you know, it's a generic, completely generic term. For that then no, you can't.
Generic names cannot be trademarked at all, but if it's descriptive and you've been using it exclusively and continuously for at least five years, then yeah, you can, you can, um, we're just, it's been used very aggressively in the marketplace and you can definitely claim acquired distinctiveness to get trademark rights. But again, it's a process,
Yeah. I think as a person who was just told me she was rejected and I think she might fall into that
Yeah, with the district and she wouldn't have known, and she might not, she may have been in business for 10 years and not know that, oh, I could have claimed, acquired distinctiveness. You know, that's something that a trademark attorney would be able to advise on or help with.
right. Uh, one of the things I see a lot is someone using a form like a translation, a foreign translation as trying to get a trademark on that. How, how do they like that?
Well, there's a doctrine of foreign equivalents. I know it's a sad and very legal leads, but that's what it's called, where when you're applying for a trademark for a word that's being translated in English word, they're going to translate it to the English word. So like, you know what? I can't even think of a translation, but in any event, if it's a foreign word they're going to, when they're doing the trademark, certs are going to see if there's an equipment. To it in the English language.
And so when they're doing the trademark search for like welcome. So if you're using a foreign word for the word, welcome, the trademark starts, it's going to be for the word welcome like that. Like a trademark attorney would research the foreign equivalent to make sure that there's no trademark infringement there. And so that's something to think that you can't get around a refusal by changing it to a foreign word.
If that word is already protected in English for the products and services that are happening.
Got it. Okay. All right. So let's flip to the, you have your trademark registration and somebody else. Well, there's two things. One is if you're on the receiving end of a cease and desist, or if you have a mark and you find somebody else is infringing it,
Okay. So if you're on the receiving end of the cease and desist, assuming you haven't, you haven't secured any us federal trademark rights. Okay. So if you're on the receiving end, And it's valid claim, meaning you're a junior user. They're likely when you're receiving a nasty gram, as I like to call it, they're usually going to ask you to cease any all use immediately.
And they're going to ask you to then in which case you're going to sit, stop any all use that means stopping and in any regards, taking it down. And then you're going to have to come up with something else. You're gonna have to come up with a totally new name. Um, hopefully, I mean, it could always escalate if you decide to fight and fight it off, it could escalate to litigation, but that just would not be a smart thing to do.
Um, in this case, a lot of actual trademark infringement cases end up being settled, but they go years and years. So imagine how much legal fees. It's a mess. It's
I to say there are no, the only the lawyers when,
it is a hot mess. So it's like, it's so much easier to just get the trademark early and do it right? Like you're, you're spending like three grand or something to get the trademark done versus all this money on legal fees. And then to do the rebrand is so much more expensive to you. So it's important to do it right now. On the other hand, if you have us federal trademark registration, and you find out that someone. Started using the mark after you.
And you send, and then, you know, you can enforce your rights against them, so you can send them a nasty gram. You can prevent them from use, but it's important to know that once you're a trademark owner, the duty is on you as the trademark owner owner to enforce your rights. So if you don't enforce your rights, there are other people out there who could start using it and will continue to use it unless you enforce your rights.
So it's not automatic, like yes, getting a us federal trademark, registered. We'll block. Someone could block someone from securing a registration with the U S PTO in some cases. Cause. There are strategies where people do these work arounds and louds on the slide end. So, but granted, it would prevent someone from getting a registration, but you have to stop them from actually using it in the marketplace.
So you would send them a cease and desist letter and then you'd have the option actually Sue them too. And you could get like troubled damages. You can get attorney's fees. There's all of these different remedies that you could have as a holder of a trademark registration.
And, uh, you know, what happens if this is the case or not, but if there's two different classes, but they're very close, like let's say like business something and software, something like they are kind of similar and somehow. You're trying to get, you know, but two different companies, like does the trademark office catch that or does that happen when someone bleeds into the other or.
It depends. So like, so generally speaking, so like I mentioned before, like the standard for trademark infringement is likelihood of confusion. So it's looking at whether, if someone saw two competing marks in the marketplace that were either identical or similar where they think it's the same business or they're affiliated by each other, are they endorsed or is there some kind of relationship with them? So, um, a good example.
Of what's not a trademark infringement is like you have, for example, like Pandora for like jewelry, you've got like Pandora for like music services. You've got dove for chocolate. You've got dove for soap, even though those are identical trademarks, they're covering completely unrelated products and services. So in those regards, like, you know, there's kind of, kind of a pass. You can get get over it. There is an exception, holler for famous.
Famous Mark's had, like, I'd say trademark superpowers. So like famous Marty's like McDonald's or like Alexis or Coca Cola. Like you can't pop up with like Coca Cola, candy, or Coca Cola shoes. Like you we'll get you the, you know, their issues with that there's trademark there that, you know, dilution issues and all of that. So typically it's important to stay away completely from famous brands.
Um, with that being said, Uh, when you're looking at whether something's infringing, the marks, don't have to be identical for it to be infringement. They can be similar and neither do the products and services. If they're related or similar, it could constitute trademark infringement. So that's something to keep in mind when you're adopting a name and looking at what's already out there asking yourself, am I committing trademark infringement?
So then how soon in the process, because most people are out there thinking about things. They don't have lawyers on speed dial and, um, you know, they're listening to this right now. Like, like, do they call you immediately? Like when they're in the ideation phase or like when did, when did they call you?
I think it's best to call me when you are in the idea phase, but you know, you want to execute that idea. Um, they'll do the best ones I love to work with because of the fact that they are starting early. So they're getting their ducks in a row, if you will. So here's what I want to do. And then we're able to come up with the legal action plan to like, here are the things you need to think about. You need to do it at this step in the process versus them getting it up and running.
It's already out there and launch and they, they skipped all of these other important steps. And then you realize, oh, I can't use this name now. Or. Oh, you know, and it's like, well, if we would've did this earlier, we would have discovered it. And then I always tell people, like, do not share your ideas and concepts with anyone. Like just anyone because ideas and concepts are not protectable. There's no protection whatsoever. So when you're like, he stole my idea or she stole my idea.
Well, I mean, again, It's not protectable intellectual property protection six, once that idea develops into something. So that idea develops into a business name or that idea develops into, um, a new invention or develops into a written book. That's when it becomes eligible for intellectual property. So once it's an idea, I would say, keep your ideas to yourself or only share with people that you trust, because otherwise they're up for grabs until.
Intellectual property protection attaches to it.
Right. So while you're bringing me to the expertise based business, that's our audiences, founders of service-based businesses that are based on their expertise. How do trademarks apply to that type of business?
Right. So we weren't, I mean, with my business, we work with all just about all service providers. Um, they have all the service providers have a ton of intellectual property. Um, if you think about it, you most likely have trademarks because you have a business name. There might be products and services that you offer that are your bread and butter. So you want to trademark those names.
You have logos, then you've got copyright because it's, service-based, you're something that you're drafting up sharing. Maybe you're doing videos. Maybe you have training programs. Um, Books. Those are all subject to cock rate, and I'm sure you have trade secrets as well. Like what is helping you that, that, I guess your secret sauce that helps you stand out from your competitors. So when all of those cases. You have intellectual property. So it's important to identify that.
So identify that by doing an intellectual property audit, it's essentially like a dump. And just thinking about like all the things that you have and what have you created and how can you really leverage it. So in order to leverage that intellectual property, you have to protect it first. So like identifying it as the first step, then protecting it to ensure that it's actually legally yours. And that the world knows it's legally yours you might know is yours, but does everybody else know it?
And then thirdly, leveraging it. How can you monetize it? How can you really generate money from this? And so that's, I think it's really important to do it in those three stats, but it service-based businesses absolutely have intellectual property.
Yeah. Yeah, it is surprising to me as I talked to people about that, where, you know, a lot of service-based businesses are selling their time and they're not really thinking about. Creating assets in our business and including the person wants your property. So it is, it's good talking about, continue to talk about it and make sure that we are capturing all the value that we're creating with our expertise. So any trends that you're seeing in trademarks, I mean, you did mention that.
I will say sometimes I go and, you know, do a search, uh, and I'll see someone who got a trademark that I'm like, how the heck did they get no protection in this. You know, it is getting harder, but what trends are we seeing in Trayvon's?
I mean, recent over the last year, a lot more applications for NFTs and metaverse type trademarks. There's a big push. Virtual services and virtual products. Um, so there's been a real increase in those areas, I would say. And just in general, overall, there's just been since the pandemic, like record breaking numbers, in terms of trademark filings each year, it keeps increasing so much so that there keeps being delays with the us patent and trademark office visit.
It's hard for them to keep up with the demands. So definitely businesses, large and small out there are filing trades.
So is that because they're more businesses or more people are aware of the need to trademark or
I think it's probably both. Um, but I definitely think that with the pandemic and people realizing that they can't rely on this one stream of income. And so they're either coming up with side hustles or they're taking those side hustles full-time and so they're really wanting to legitimize their business because. You know, clients say that.
Yeah. When I got that trademark, I really started taking my business more seriously because you know, now it's like a legit, I legitimately own this like that LLC, that you have that domain name that you got, the social media handles don't mean anything in terms of establishing legal ownership over your business. And, and so getting that trademark is really what does it for a lot of people.
And so I think that's what it was, is that people were really starting to take their businesses seriously and, or starting a new business altogether.
You know, mentioning that it reminds me of a post that you did recently about a development that the trademark office isn't doing. It's going to start doing the, uh, physical search. And because I remember, you know, I'm fairly new to Instagram, but whatever reasons, Instagram served me up some, uh, trademark lawyers where they would show like the whole celebration with a guest, you know, all thing, look at their certificate. And it was very meaningful people, you know, or emotional about that.
So
Oh, yes, absolutely. And then you can still order them, but it's not the same as like, you know, just automatically issued. You know, I think a lot of places are just becoming more digital now. Um, it's just kind of the wave of the future. Now. They're like, let's, let's save some trees.
Yeah. I'm, you know, um, I'm with that, I guess it's hard to argue with that is fantastic. So this is the hourly to exit podcast. You know, we talk about that journey from that hourly unsustainable business to one that is scalable and saleable. That includes, you know, having some exclusive assets like IP in your business and having a strong market position, like a brand. And, uh, and then having some independence from an owner. So where do trademarks fit in to this landscape?
So where did trademarks fit in? So, I mean, if it's in different ways, so it's important for you to then have the option to do any of those things, whether it's you decide to start licensing or something, or you, you want to sell your business or whatever it is, you have to have legal ownership of the asset that you're selling. Right. So having the trademark in the name ensures that you are the exclusive rights of. In that name.
So that gives you the option to be able to do various things when that time comes, when you don't secure those trademarks at the, you know, early on in the process. You don't necessarily may or may not have that option to do those things. Um, and so that's why it's so important because, um, when you don't secure us federal trademark, you have what's called common law trademark rights, which are only based on where you are headquartered locally.
So a lot of times service-based businesses are helping clients across state lines. Sometimes even internationally as well. Um, and then even with social media and websites and all of that, people can see you have a big digital footprint. And so when you only have common law trademark rights and you're headquartered in Marilyn.
then you're vulnerable to someone misappropriating your name using it, starting a competing business in a neighboring state, like in Virginia or DC or something, and you wouldn't have any legal recourse. And so the importance of a trademark is to ensure that you have legal ownership, that you minimize any legal conflicts or disputes that arise later in the process. And so that you're able to license or sell or anything free and clear of any kind of conflicts or legal issues attached to it.
That's the best thing
Yeah. So say what you raised a great point, especially at this time in history where people may have been doing local business, you know, they went to an office every day. Uh, I don't know why, but they do. And, uh, and that maybe they've transitioned to an online, I know several people who have transitioned to an online presence and they're now helping people across the country where they weren't. Four, and that's a major shift. And so now we're talking about yeah.
Federal protection instead of just stay pensions. So great point. All right. So this is a very meta podcast. You know, I'm a female founder of an equity space business that I hope to build a sell someday. And you are the founder of an expertise based business. So are you about building your business to perhaps sell it someday?
I don't know. I, that hasn't really, I don't think so. To be honest, I'm not, I don't think I'm building it to sell it and not to say it's not a possibility, but for me, it's more of like building a legacy while I'm here. We don't want some guns. It doesn't have to be here on. It took about like, you know, making my mark right now as I'm living and people remember ratings IP law, but it doesn't have to actually continue.
Um, you know, once I'm gone, I don't, I don't expect my son to carry on the radiance IP law, but who knows. That's where I feel now. I mean, I've been in business seven years. Maybe you asked me and maybe five to seven years, maybe it's a different perspective, but for me, it's just about, you know, Growing and scaling to be able to employ people, be able to live the lifestyle that I want. Um, things like that,
Yeah. Well, I agree. The legacy is what we do every day. It's not something that we do later after, or yeah. It's what we do every day. The decisions that we make and just, I like to mention you are a young woman and that there may be a time that you just want another challenge. It's not, you know, and it would be nice to have an asset that you could sell at that time of that has so that's that? Um, yeah. So, uh, to us, to rev up. Well, where can people find you?
You can of course, check out our website, which is www.radiantiplaw.com. You can also, um, follow me on Instagram at radiance Harris Esq. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Uh, I'm radiance Harris on LinkedIn. Those are the primary three places where you can find me.
Fantastic. Well, this has been a delight so much great information. Thank you so much for sharing it with us today. And, uh, yeah. And we're gonna make sure we meet in person very soon.
Yes, let's do it. Thank you for having me again.
Thank you, radians.