Making mobile apps for developers, with Anders Borum - creator of the most popular git client, Working Copy

A rational decision would have been to try something else instead of sort of keep going. But I had this Yeah.

You had a vision.

Patience. I don't know what the correct word is. Stubbornness is is a little more Hi,

everyone. You're listening to scaling DevTools. I'm joined today by Anders Borom, who is the creator of the working copy app. And this is our first episode with a developer tool that's a mobile app. So I'm super excited. Thank you so much, Anders, for joining.

Thank you for inviting me, in full suit.

Thanks. And, shout out to Rauno, my app development guru friend who was like, you have to talk to Anders, about developer tools on on the Apple Store. So, Anders, could you tell us a bit about working copy?

Yes. So so working copy is a Git client for iPhone and iPad, and Git being this version controls tool that so many developers use. So it just brings this to your mobile device, really.

This episode is brought to you by Work OS. At some point, you're gonna land a big customer and they're gonna ask you for enterprise features. That's where Work OS comes in because they give you these features out of the box. Features like skin provisioning, SAML authentication, and audit logs. They have an easy to use API and they're trusted by big dev tools like Vercel as well as smaller fast growing dev tools like Nock.

Yeah. So, the GitHub app is sort of mostly for the communication aspects, and working copy is for working with the files, sort of with the the content of repository itself.

What would be like a typical use case? Yeah. So so

very few people are doing full scale development on their phone. So they do work and copy tool. Look at things in the repository when they're sort of away from their regular desktop computer, or to make small changes. Then so other people are using it for non development person purposes or using it for blocking and and stuff like that. And and it it can fulfill that, but so so it get kinda it's sort of it's one piece in a tool chain, and a lot of the other pieces are not they're not on the iPhone.

That makes sense. And even like small stuff I've noticed you can't really do in the GitHub app. I'm not sure if you can do this, but even just adding someone to a repo, it's very GitHub app seems to be very like you're consuming information. You're not really doing anything.

Yeah. Yeah. So so I think they just want a lightweight sort of look at your repositories.

Yeah. And how did you get started?

Yeah. So I think it was I was maybe I think I I started by misreading the market back in in in 2000 The best way. Yeah. I had made regular consumer apps for a few years, and there were sort of new capabilities, on iOS where it felt like the platform was sort of maturing, becoming a full scale computing platform. Apps control, speak to each other, share files, and stuff like that.

Yeah. So and then once you kind of got it out, did people start using it in it, like, immediately, or was it like a

I I did get some that there were a few issues, but it it was it was a little slow. But I had this hope, of course, that that this was I was ahead of the curve, and and, as other developer tools appeared, the need for a good plan would sort of increase. And it did in some way, but not nearly as much as I had hoped. But now, Cindy has stated, so I I I think I do have sufficient users, and the app is a success. But my sort of my strategy back in 2014, it would be yeah. It was wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. So but but you so, like, in your strategy, maybe you would be GitHub right now, but, like, you're still you're still built, like, a great a great business, a great app. I know Raul knows, like, Anders is Anders is doing really well. So, like, I know I I know it's panned out well. How do you think, like what do you think are, like, the biggest contributors to, like, you getting to the point you're at now?

Yes. I think, patience, thought of, or or maybe not sure what the correct word is. The sort of or or stubbornness is is maybe more. But I I I think Yeah.

You had a vision.

Yes. Yes. And I think looking at at the early novels, so a rational decision would have been to try something else instead of sort of keep going. But I could I I made a living from consulting. So I it didn't need to sort of bring in a lot of money, the first few years. But slowly, I I I I could see it growing, of course. So so that, that made it worthwhile. But

My my I think my favorite meme of all time is, like, we do this not because it is easy, but because we thought it would be easy.

Yeah. Yeah.

And yeah. It's it's really cool. So most people listening probably are like me and that we don't really know very much about, like, app store marketing. How do you get users in the app store?

This is sort of one of my internal struggles. So the App Store is great for mass market products, and a good client for your public computer is not a mass market product. So I think it ends up being word-of-mouth and not so much the app store itself. It it's yeah. The developers talking to each other than me sort of shouting from every social media, stuff like that.

So Yeah. So do you, like, do you have like kind of like a typical journey of like when they do, like, it's it's like their friend says to them, you have to have working copy.

Yeah. So so so I love that, Heather. And I I think that does happen a lot. So it just it slowly spreads, and and I think the app is I think we put in a lot of work and solve the projects we work on are so dear to us. So I also think that working copy, just having for a developer to be able to carry out around their work with them and have a look at it, even if they don't do it all that often, is sort of it is a value to them. It is something that they like, and it appeals to a lot of them.

Yeah. It's it's for that totally makes sense. Like, it's like you haven't got to take your laptop with you on a trip because you know that, like, if something really hits the fan, you could use working copy on your phone to make a small change or something.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's really cool. And how about, like, monetization and stuff in the App Store?

Because we can copy it. It is a complimentary tool. It's very few online users have sort of this is not their one Git client. This is sort of their other Git client. So I can't be I need to be super careful about, charging users.

much do they pay?

I think it's $30, around maybe 32. And and and if they after this year, if they want the new features, then it's half half that sort of upgrade. Mhmm. So it's sort of yeah. I'm I'm looking at it feature wise when are the features added and so so it's it's it's this weird mix.

And just to be clear, when you say 2nd Git client, you mean, like, primary is like that they're just doing it from their computer?

Exactly. So my competition isn't other apps. My competition is

Come online.

Exactly. Or get clients on your regular computer.

Do you do a kind of Mac app of working copy as well? Or

So I I have one running in sort of a development build spot. It's not nice enough to publish, but it it's something I'm working towards because that has sort of increased utility, and, I could do very different pricing, I think, on a Mac client.

Yeah. Who who who pays actually for is it like a is it a business expense for most people or is it like a

I think it's a personal expense for most people. I I think, it's a little bit difficult to get businesses to purchase apps for their employees. It's more difficult than it should be, really. Yeah. And this plays into the same job. So this is also why the users need to want to pay because they are it's very much for voluntary and out of their own pocket.

Yeah. It's kinda hard, I guess, with, like, the app store as well. I imagine, like, is is a person is, like, a consumer, I wouldn't even know, okay, how would I, yeah, how would I go about that? Like, I'd have to get my boss to, like, buy a subscription somewhere and send me a code or, like, it's I guess it's hard to know how that would work, or I just have to do an expense report.

There are sort of there are special ways to do it, but Yeah. I think either you need to to reach enterprise customers and sell through the whole fee of the biases for some company. And that would be great, of course, but requires sales muscle that I don't have at all. Or it it it becomes also you have to sort of get a refund on the purchaser. It's it's yeah.

I'm, so I'm kind of fascinated by your you're in the same mastermind with Rauno. Right? You're in Mhmm. So could you talk a bit about this mastermind that you're in?

Yeah. So so we're just a bunch of people with a with different absence. Ronald has so many, and I have a few and and so all the participants are 1. And we have very different levels also sort of financially, so are doing extremely well.

And Yeah. Some are making, like, millions. Right? Like It's it's it's

it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like 1 person developer.

Yeah. Yeah. But but, of course, all our apps do, they do different stuff, so it's hard to sort so so we can help each other so on the these App Store specific things, but becomes a little bit difficult. So, on every app is its own domain and, but we have stuff about Apple and about the App Store and how to try to get noticed, we can help each other out there.

Yeah. Have you got any, like, the things that come to mind that you've, like, kind of gone to the group with and then what you kind of took away from it? Be kinda curious.

So so one thing I'll say is that so the big difference in the App Store is also what kind of user are you targeting. So if you're targeting developers like me, then you're just in a very different situation than if you're doing something. If you're doing a game or

A calculator.

Yeah. Yeah. So if one of us is doing sort of a a weight lifting app, then many of his sort of struggles will be sort of very different from the one Yeah. I'm seeing. So, and his users would be so they have different needs, and and you reach them in a different way, of course. And and so just so there are a few things that sort of where we are, sort of, that we can help each other and and we have the same problems, but maybe 90% of things. So

Interesting. It

is different worlds, even though we are both making apps for sort of mobile devices.

So is it just kind of constant uncharted territory or just trying stuff?

That's yeah. I I think there's some of that. But and so so you look at what other people are doing and what other, I look inside my category and see what is the cool stuff being done by other available tools, what are the good ideas, what don't I like, and, of course, I navigate based on so it it it isn't all it's not totally uncharted. It's but there's a bit of that. Try something, see if the user likes it, and try something else when they don't.

Yeah. And when you say, like, try something, see if the user likes it, like, are you talking about kind of, like, new features, or is it, like, just a different way of doing the same thing, or is it, like, just moving stuff around? Or like how It could be superficial stuff like

changing how the app is presented on their store. Sort of the screenshot shown or whatever. It could also be sort of trying to take the app in a new direction. This new feature, opening something up. And depending on sort of what my analytics show, I might remove it again, really extreme or or just so not do much more. But, of course, it gets usage then. It'll be improved and expanded.

Yeah. That makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's it's important. So, the users even though they're so they're maybe just using the app for sort of a few things, It seems to be important that it that there needs to be meaningful improvements pretty often, or they sort of, do confidence And so I I do need to it it needs to grow sort of feature wise or, what needs to change or or the users will think I've got a cut about it or doing something else. And and and it will reflect on my download number and and then my sales.

How do you know if something was good?

I know from I get sort of direct user feedback on, and just emails.

So you have a community?

Yeah. So yeah. So a little small community. Nice. But also I saw a a measure. So that in broad shows what the users are doing. That will tell me if nobody is doing something, then maybe it's not very good or too hidden or something like that.

What's, like, the best change you ever made?

Yeah. So it it sounds, it it it sounds strange, but so it's just repositories or gift repositories are just directories with all your stuff. And also impactful improvement I made today was just to allow these repositories to sit outside there itself. So inside of that apps. So it could be sort of, maybe they're using something like, obsidian to to manage their notes on.

Yeah. That doesn't sound silly at all. I thought you were gonna say the best thing you ever did was, like, I don't know, change 1 change, like, the subject line on on that.

Yeah. But the silly thing is that that this is sort of a Git client on any other platform would be like this from the Yeah. From the first version. But it's it's just the way iPhone and iPad apps are sort of generally built. Everything's living inside The same little world. Sort of document folder in the app. But changing that, that made a huge difference.

I've got to ask the reverse. Like, what was the worst what was the worst change you ever made that you were like, okay. I could change that back.

Yeah. So so I wasn't actually able to change it back because if I added a feature that sort of allowed working, running the SSH commands. So it's running sort of commands on your server with the files inside the app, and it would it would upload the entire sorry. So run the file on the server and then fetch back everything that changed. And, of course, this was in frustration with the, much of the developer toolchain being missing from from the devices.

Yeah. So maybe it should have been like an a separate app or something.

And then and I ended up doing that. So I ended up making it up for that. And then every time I get requests on how this should be more flexible or do stuff from different I I can point them to a sort of dedicated tool because it was just yeah. It it it was a small feature that sort of just grew like a Ballooned.

Yeah. That's really cool. That's really cool. Do you do you have, like, a kind of a launch strategy or something like that when you're gonna do, like, a new app?

I tried to it it's it's very basic, really. So I have, I have newsletters for my apps, and I start to start to seize my new products maybe a few months before they're really just when I'm right about the time where sort of beta testing starts. So I collect the list of users that are interested, and then when I'm ready to launch, they get an email. So it it's it's very old school, but I I I think it works. And if the apps are useful, then slowly, the work gets out.

Okay. That's really cool. So you kinda got, like, a brand. Like, people associate you with making apps that they like.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. There's some so when I launch a new app, you can sort of there'll be a few days where I have many more sort of sales than I have people starting a trial, which would be weird, right, because you you want to see if this is even working.

Yeah. But I

think if people just sort of yeah. They just want it. So so that's, of course, that's a privilege. That's very nice.

Yeah.

Yeah. But I think just just sort of making something useful, keeping it up, keeping it updated over many years and taking user feedback seriously, then slowly but surely, people will trust your work. So even the new work

Yeah. It must be a great app if people are, like, really, really trusting you. I need to try it myself. I realized I think I've said recently, I've realized limitations of of the GitHub app. It's great, but it's really, yeah, just very simple. One one kind of off b question. We don't, I know we don't have many, like, mobile developers on the show. What, if any, developer tools do you use that you really like?

Yeah. So, oh, it's iOS developers, they need to use Xcode. That's not really a choice. That that's all the the Apple, ID, but then I use Versus Code. Interesting. Versus Code? Yeah. Bb edit is a Mac editor. I really like him.

Bb edit.

Yeah. And on the Mac, I use, for sort of my own Git purposes, I use either tower, the ticket client, and just the command files.

Do you use any of, like, like, revenue card or anything like that?

I I don't. I did it looks super useful, but somehow I saw

already solved it all.

Yeah. So so so then maybe if they've been there back in 2014, I would definitely have used them, but but I sort of, I solved all the yeah. I I I did the work, and then I think they're sort of they're focused on subscriptions, and and that's a bad fit for working copy.

Yeah. And how about, like, deployments, like CICD stuff? Do you use any of those tools? There's a few.

Nothing. So so I I do I use GitHub actions for sort of for build building some of the libraries I'm using. So I I deliver the apps in a special sign format for Apple.

Yeah. Interesting. It sound just it sounds like all the stuff they use is like you you haven't got too many subscriptions yourself, it sounds like.

Yeah. That is true.

It's like your philosophy from, like, working copy is, like, the same as, like, your philosophy in, like, your tool choices, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think with regards to subscriptions, I remember, this is many years ago now, but, JetBrains, and they get unsure developed tools. When they switched from the solo, the original sort of paid ones could use it for, you could update for a while. They switched to there was just such the the users got really angry, and I think developers are more opposed to subscriptions for sort of for the tool they run on their machines.

It makes sense. Anders, I think that's all we've got time for. If you had, like, one piece of advice for someone that was, like, thinking of doing, like, a developer tool app, what would it be?

I like what it I do like making these tools, and I like like the sort of the space I carved out for myself on the App Store. I think perhaps I made it so my life would have been easier, I think, is just focusing on a traditional software as a service. I think the app store is is sold. It's a difficult market, I think. So if you do it, you you should do it because you absolutely want to because it will not be the easiest way to make a living.

Yeah. Okay. The the the advice is maybe don't.

No. That's what they have. Maybe. So so but

yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, that's good advice. That's good advice. And if people wanna learn more, about you, where can they learn more?

I'm Palmin, p a l m I n, on Twitter, and they can do another working copy at working copy. App. Yeah. And they can just they can write me an email or a tweet or something like that, and I'll respond and yeah.

Amazing. Maybe one person will be safe from taking their laptop on holiday with them for, discovering working coffee. Yeah. Anders, thank you so much, and thanks everyone for listening. We'll see you again soon.