
Back in the day, did you ever use a BlackBerry? Have you ever sprayed your house with Febreze? Or, more likely, have you ever deployed an app to Vercel? If yes to any of these, then you've used a product that was named by today's guest, David Plasek from Lexicon. He's an expert in naming companies. And today's episode, we're gonna dig in to what makes a great name. We're gonna find out what are the biggest mistakes to avoid when naming a company.
The biggest mistake is really seeking safety, a safe port, if you will, which is to describe what this thing does. It just doesn't have the interest and the originality.

We're gonna find out why the name Vercel helps them stand out in the market.
V, the sound of v is based on our research is the most alive and actually daring sound in the English alphabet.

Whether you really need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a .com domain.
I think communication is far more important than the URL.

And most importantly, what you can do at home to come up with really great names.
Think about how you wanna behave in the marketplace. Think about how your brand is gonna, in a small way or in a big way, change the future, change a category. Right?

If you don't already have a name, today's episode is obviously interesting. But if you do already, I think it's still interesting. Vercel wasn't always called Vercel. They were called Zite and they rebranded. And people are always coming out with product names, not just company names.
If you get the right name, the return on investment is a hundred x. A hundred x.

So I think today's episode, regardless of what stage you're at, is gonna be really useful to keep in the back of your mind. Well, what do you think of, scaling DevTools as a
With all names, there's usually pluses and minuses because your orientation is is technology and what's happening with developers and where where are developers going. And I remember that when we had an earlier conversation, you you talked about, I think this would be useful for people who are developers maybe launching a brand and maybe you don't have a marketing sense. Right? So I think in that in that direction who you're appealing to, I think is a very comfortable name and a very relevant name. Right?
As you would broaden out, if you wanted to, that, you know, then it becomes a less effective name for you, but it still has a real quality of accuracy, right, and believability. And then, you know, there's all kinds of podcasts out there. Some are believable and educational, informative, and others are not. Right? So I think you definitely, your strength is that you on that side of, I think I'm gonna learn something from, from from this person.
So that was a long, long answer to your question. Hopefully, it was helpful.

That is helpful. And feel free as well, like, to lay in because, I guess, like, we're gonna talk about the the good names, but where do you see, like you don't have to name a shame, but, like, what where do you see people making mistakes on kind of names as start ups?
Well, the first this is, I think, probably the most common mistake is to let's describe what we do. Right? And and we see, we see that technology space riddled with those types of things. I mean, I you may I don't even know if it's still around, but you may recall info seek. Right?
I I that that's that's an example of a team that said, well, what do we do? And we said, well, you know, we're we're helping someone seek the information they want. And then someone, I'm sure, said, oh, Infoseek. Right? Now, it has some qualities. It's easy to say, you know info, you know seek. But compare that to Google. Right? Info seek tells you kind of what it does. Google says that this is a new idea.
It communicates or connotes that idea there's something new here, right? And, it it adheres to a principle that that we really try to enforce here, which is we want the audience to say to react, not necessarily in these words, but in this same sort of genre, which is, well, I'm looking at Infoseek. I'm looking at Google. I don't know much about Google, but they're not like the other guys. They're not like Infoseek.
So I'm what it does is it creates a predisposition to consider. Right? And that's what a name can do. It is you don't run you don't look at a brand name and run down and buy it, but you do look at it and then decide to consider it or just move out and and move beyond it. And things like in info seek just don't have that wealth of that.
So so so that's the to answer your question, the biggest mistake is, really seeking safety, a safe port, if you will, which is to describe what this and the originality that something like a ghoul. And I I don't mean to suggest to to you or the audience that may listen to this that it has to be a made up name. It it could be something like Azure. It could be a constructed, solution like PowerBook or, you know, we take the a fruit Blackberry and we put it on the phone. So so all those things say there's a new idea here.

This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a dev tool, at some point, your customers are gonna start asking you for enterprise features. WorkOS offers you single sign on, skin provisioning, and audit logs out the box. WorkOS is trusted by Perplexity and Vercel as well as Workbrew, a home brew management startup that I recently interviewed. I just told Mike that WorkOS is the sponsor and this is what Mike said.
Yeah. So WorkOS isn't paying me any money for this. I I pay WorkOS money for this, but WorkOS is, like, one of the best developer tools I've, like, ever used. It's it's the documentation and the experience with building with them is so, so good. Like, I initially was almost like, okay.
This seems expensive, but then I built an integration with them in about twenty minutes. So I had spent two days banging my head off the wall trying to build it directly with Okta. And then with WorkOS, I then have, like, many, many SSO providers, like, support instead of just one. So, yeah, like, for me, WorkOS is one of the nicest developer experiences I've encountered in the last, like, five years probably. And it's so surprising because a bunch of the developer team are ex GitHub, and therefore, very good at the job.

Go to work0s.com to learn more. You you just dropped a few amazing names that you've named. So you've got there Blackberry, as you're I can see in your background for anyone listening, we can see we're we're gonna get to Versalba. We can also see, Fabreeze, impossible as in impossible burgers, Sonos, lucid. That's, it's quite a
Thank you.

An impressive array of names that you've come up with.
You know, it's it's it's based on, of course, a lot of experience. I mean, we're talking just, you know, over four decades, where it's a lot of trial and error, and a lot of learning. But I think the one thing we have done is, and I can't tell you why I decided to do this, but we've invested heavily. I mean, I I I guess the reason was I I I wanted to be a leader in this category, and I don't think you can I don't think there's any evidence that you can lead anything unless you make investments in both time, talent, and money? And at this point, we're a little north of $7,000,000 that we've invested in understanding how, you know, language, linguistics, cognitive science, how those things really affect if we know if you know how the brain processes information, I mean, I think that now, looking back, I you know, when I started Lexicon, I didn't have even a thought about that.
But we started looking into that, probably twenty five years ago. And now I know that if you know how the brain processes information, if you know how children learn language, those things are they give you insights into what makes one name much better than another name. Why Google works so much better than InfoSeq, as an example. Right? Why you can take a completely arbitrary name of a fruit, blackberry, and put it on a phone and it works magic for for, you know, just a a number of years.
Right? And and then, unfortunately, for them, I mean, you know, a great great group of clients, but the the world I'm simplifying everything. The world said go left and they went right. And and, you know, it's hard. When you do that in technology, it's hard to recover.

Yeah. That's, yeah. Definitely miss those guys. I used to love my BlackBerry BBM. That was just that was
huge. I still have my top desk drawer here at the office.

Yeah. The speed with which you could type with that was just incredible.
Just an awesome awesome yeah.

Really cool.
And such a such a great great credential for us. I mean, people, they love their Blackberries. They love the name. So I I I am truly sorry. They they went left when they were supposed to go right, or maybe they went right when they were supposed to go left. Doesn't it doesn't really matter. You know the story better than I do, probably.

No. But I guess maybe that's a segue out to a company that, you know, seems to be going right when the world wants them to go right, which is Vercel.
Yes.

So you named Vercel?
Yeah. We did. We did. We worked, directly with the the the founder and his team. They were here in our I mean, I'm we're talking from our studio in Sausalito, California, they were here, we had a number of meetings.
As a executive team, they saw the magic in a brand name. Not everybody sees that, there's still sort of a tradition of brand names is, you know, one element of a marketing mix. But in this in this digital age that we live in, with all the innovations that have happened, think about think about Google and Amazon and and Apple or or or or Meta. These have all created more choice, more distractions, more channels of distribution, more competition. And so what's happened, and this is really good for us, is that brand names are no longer just like, okay, we gotta get a few things right here in brand names.
Brand names become really critical to success, right? They have to do more and they have to work harder than ever before because there's just not enough time like you had in earlier days to build interest and early share. And nowadays, if you don't do that, if you don't get interest early on, if you don't start getting share and get early momentum, you know, you just become sort of laggard, and maybe you will survive if the money is there, people will have patience and fund it, but a lot of times they just don't, but they can't get to Series B. And this applies not not just to technology brands, but in consumer products. You know, if if a new brand of toothpaste doesn't take hold early on, it's gonna end up on that bottom shelf.
And again, it may if there's money and patience, it may stay there for a while. But, I I think more and more what goes on the bottom shelf, leaves the store, pretty pretty quickly. So so good news for us because, you know, we see names, and I know it sounds selfish, but we see names as a critical element, and it's we think and and this is the standard we set for Vercel and they really bought into it. It should be your most distinctive and most original marketing element. I mean, I mean, you know, and you could say, well, why is that?
Well, it's an easy answer. Your name is the one thing that is gonna be used longer and more often than anything else. Right? And and when we talk about that, clients, you you get people saying, you know, I haven't thought about it that way. Secondly, you know, if you get a strong trademark, it's the one thing that your competitor can't take away from you.
I mean, they can, you know, butt up against the the patents, they can kinda go around patents, they can get a similar color, they can behave in a certain way, you know, mimic that behavior. They can't get take your name. Right? And so with Vercel, because they what they were doing was so innovative and the group, their behavior to us was one of, you know, we we can take risk, we have a lot of confidence. And so when we find those things, if they're doing innovative things, they have a little confidence, that's a great occasion for creating something new.
Right? And so, part of what they did so it's a it's a simple solution because they accelerate, right, their customer success. Right? And and so a lot of names start with excel and, you know, acceleration. We just said, no.
Let's just take that CEL. Right? Which we see in biology, we see in, you know, aircraft and avionics and acceleration, all sorts of stuff, and we just started playing with that. We also apply, and this is something we have invested heavily in also in sound symbolism. So what does that mean?
Well, I mean, you can look this up, and there's lots of articles on the web about this, although we've developed our own proprietary, database. But every letter in the English alphabet, evokes certain qualities. Now some of those sounds are universal. Right? And I this is a a letter people can relate to that v, the sound of v is based on our research, is the most alive and actually daring sound in the English alphabet.
So Corvette, you know, great name for a car that is sort of muscle car, goes fast. And so that aliveness and that daring, you know, we put that V right in front. Now, it's not like Viagra, it's vert, so it's it's it's not so in your face. Then you can say, well, there, you know, variables, things like that, verus, Latin for true, so that's what we call is, you know, not necessarily a completely global word unit, but across, you know, the the EU, North America, and even Latin America, that VER is familiar. Right?
So we have two familiar things, we put them together in a unique fashion and you get distinctiveness. You get, a level of memorability because they're familiar, right? And and and then so you have something new. So all those things come together and it and we get that reaction from their customers. In theory, is that, hey.
I gotta take a look at these I have to consider using them. And then and then you can see that they took off right away. I mean, they they were successful from the get go. Now, I mean, did the name do all that? No. Of course not. You know, what who they are and what they did, you know, drove success. But I I do believe and I and I I think a client team including Guillermo would would, would would agree with me that the name was very helpful to them.

Yeah. If they were called something like, you said the mistake is to be, like, very specific. If they were called, like, deployfast.com or something, like, you know, it's Yeah. They'll they're probably not gonna be as successful as they are now.
No. Too familiar. Too too like, okay, every and and by the way, deploy fast or really fast or something like that or true fast. Well, everybody is saying that in their mess you know, all their competitors, and so you you all you do is you just walk yourself right back into competitive space.

Mhmm.
You wanna be outside of the competitive space.

Yeah. So one one thing you'll say that you touched on there as well is that, like, you know, you talk about, like, the internationalization. So once you have, like, an idea for name that you think is cool, I don't know, or you like, that you feel like is strong.
Yeah.

What what kind of, I know you do a lot of, like, checks and sort of what kind of things do you do, after that?
It's fairly rigorous. So so first thing is, and, you know, this is a big hurdle, right, which is trademark. They evaluate. So, I mean, we don't practice law here, but we do have an attorney, who's been with us for seventeen years now. We have paralegals, and we'll do enough searching to get us on databases, that we subscribe to.
And we'll do, you know, the Google searches and, you know, we're experimenting now with, you know, how we use AI to to, eliminate, solutions or or at least keep them in consideration. We'll get a client, about 50 to 60% through the process by doing that. And then, and and and by the way, one of the things we do is one of the first meetings we have is with the the client's counsel So so that we're aligned and the beauty of an attorney here is that it's, you know, privileged information attorney to attorney. So we we have very open conversations or our attorney does. So we have a good strategy for doing that.
So that's one thing. The second thing we do, and we have developed, and no surprise here based on our research, we've developed software which allows us to analyze very objectively and technically certain quality. So we do have sound symbolism in this software. So we put in, we want something that supports smoothness and speed, right? And so that software will eliminate names that may be very good names for, you know, other things that are might be a good name for a cosmetic that is healing and smooth but it's slow.
So that's and it's not eliminated like we don't see it, it just doesn't show up in the top like 20 names, right? We look for things like, we know that memorability is affected by either rhyme or rhythm, you know? The the new, Chinese,

DeepSeek.
DeepSeek. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. That's a very good name, because it has, you know, rhyme to it, right?
It it also, you know, deep seek, right? It also has those, you know, two e's and then two e's over there, so so there's a structural pattern there that the mind remembers easily, right? And so, that that that if we had put that in and said we want something, you know, test for memorability, that would come up. It would have been probably in the top 10 names, on that alone. So we're looking for memorability.
We're looking for concreteness or tangibility. Example, red hat software. Very memorable because I got a color and I got a hat. I got an object, right? So this just helps us very objectively, look at things and and get that.
For all clients, we recommend a global review of the key languages, which is our about 15 languages represent something around, I think, 88% of all languages spoken in the important areas. Right? I mean, there's really no such thing as a global name, because there's so many different languages, right, and dialects and things. But, and I'm really proud of this because it took a good deal of time and energy, but we have now, I think the number is 107 linguists in 78 countries that, you know, are are certified by us. They're they're most of them are PhDs.
Most of them work at universities. There's a few that are masters, and and teach or do do other kinds of consulting things. And we have a questionnaire that we put these names on and we and they fill out the questionnaire. So, again, it's pretty, objective. Although, we do give them opportunities to just voice their opinion, right, about the name.
And they know they don't know the client. They never know the client, but they know the category. I suspect they can guess at the client. And so that comes back. And now when we present to a client, we say, here's the name, here's the creative rationale for it, here's our cognitive science review, very objective, right, how it scores, here's our linguistic review, here's our legal review.
And so all these things are kind of triangulated, so that they're, you know, most clients realize now, okay, at this point, I'm just not looking at raw material, they're not just throwing, you know, darts to a board. These are valuable candidates that have the potential to, you know, help us grow, which is really, you know, when people ask me, you know, what what is Lexicon really about? I say that's simple, we're about value creation, right, Through through a brand name, right? And and it's easy for people to kinda, you know, slide that down the hillside and to to say, oh, well, look, these guys are namers. Well, we're really not.
I mean, we do create names, but what we're really doing is we're creating value. And you you can see that in, you know, all the work we've done. The the the and and and and I think what what keeps us moving and keeps us creating these really very effective names is that it's not about being a namer, it's not about being cute or creative or clever, It's about how do we create value for this company. And in the end, you have to be creative. You have to be disciplined.
But value and growth comes first for us.

Yeah. That that makes sense. One one more question I had on the check is because, like, this is something that's always debated. And I think just yesterday, I saw a tweet from Paul Graham saying, like, about .coms. And, and it was, like, if you don't he said that, like, not having a .com is a sign of weakness, basically, because you're kind of, like, you're showing that there's, like ideally, you would have the .com, and if you don't have it, then you're, like, that's, like, a form of weakness.
But on the other hand, it's, like, then you go obscure and, like, you know, how how do you think about, like, does it matter to have, like, the .com name, the .com domain? Can imagine if you're naming, like, impossible, that's, like, that's, like, a pretty hard one to get that I may I'm sure they have it, but, like, that's a hard one to get the .com for.
Here I mean, this is a it's a good conversation to have. And and and and we do have it, you know, not infrequently, but we have, you know, evidence from our clients and from some research that we've done that the Com is now becomes more like an area code or a ZIP code. And, it the the the real the the real critical step here is is the does the name work. Right? And, when clients say, well, okay.
That's really a good name, but it we can't we can't get the .com. I mean, we can get it, but it's $3,000,000, and so we have to give it up. We say you're you're really making a mistake. I think there's a narrow band in technology that says you need the .com, but III don't I think communication is far more important than than than the URL. Now good news is that because there's so many alternatives, right, you know, AI, IO, Biznet, that .coms are typically not going for the millions or the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
So, you know, we encourage someone to if they're kinda stuck on that, to pursue it. And if people are comfortable because they haven't they've raised enough money and they can spend, you know, 50, a hundred, a hundred and 50 thousand, 2 hundred thousand dollars on a, URL, if if they have the money, then I say fine. It's it's part of your marketing budget. If they're tight on money, I say spend your money on communication, on ramp your brand app. So, we're you know, we we may well do another, you know, and and make it really highly statistically valid to to maybe sort this thing out, not q one, but maybe q two on this.
Look. Tesla started off with Tesla Motors. Didn't didn't hurt them. Right? We're we're lexiconbranding.com. Didn't hurt us at all. In fact, Yeah. It it tells people what we do. Right? Now at some point, Tesla had a lot of money, and I I think they, you know, paid, you know, several million dollars for it. Well, they had the money. Right? We we have, one client who paid $20,000,000 for it. Now I had to sign up. They were so embarrassed about it.
We had, you know, another separate NDA, which we already had with the company to never disclose the people who paid $20,000,000 for me. I mean Yeah. Ridiculous.

I think it's come back. Like, there's more and more stories like friend.com was, like, a big one recently, and then I know that mo a lot of dev tools I see are spending I see a lot now who they sort of lease it. It's which I never knew was a thing until recently. But you can I'm sure you know this, but telling other people that are listening, like, you can lease domain names and it's like, it could be a lot. Like, it could be like Yes. 10 to a hundred thousand a year, or even more. Yeah.
Great great income for someone. You know? And if that hundred thousand is not that meaningful of a line item, okay. I mean, you know, .com is a nice clean hit. People doesn't say, well, what is, you know, .io? What you know, or so there is some efficiency to it, but it it just depends on the value you wanna place on, and how much, you'll see. So, but I if you can send me the link to

Oh, yeah.
That post where the you gotta have the .com.

I'll I'll send it to you. Yeah. And then okay. So we've we've talked about Vercel a little bit. Another big dev tool that you named is Azure. Microsoft Azure.
Yes.

Could how how did that happen?
Well, and that that that is a different story than than than Vercel. So, obviously, it's Microsoft. And and when we they they came to us, they again, this is a it's a gravitational pull, I I think, on the part of clients to do something descriptive, and they said, well, we want you to we want you to work with cloud because, you know, this is a cloud service, and so, and we, you know, you do a quick Google search and you already send them on a trademark search and you you begin to see, you know, there's these cloud names, either starting with cloud or ending with cloud are proliferating. And and and we said, you're all you're doing is you're walking yourself right back into a competitive set, which is going to be huge, right? Because there's gonna be small players and big players in this thing, and you are Microsoft.
And I think you can create an interesting story, with, with with something that is different. Right? And I think we caught them at a time when Steve Ballmer was, you know, jealous of things like Blackberry and, you know, PowerBook and these things. And so they, you know, they introduced us into the process. And and and we we said that we felt the best thing for you to do was something that's concrete, something that's real, but unexpected.
And we did a lot of work, at the time. We had a very good client, who then directly reported to Steve Ballmer, and we came up with this Azure, which was ding because some people say Azure, others say Azure, but it's only two ways. I mean, it's like we always give the example, Nike is pronounced about five different ways around the world, you know, I got my Nix on, I got my Nikes, I got my Nikes. It doesn't slow them down and we know the linguistic principle behind it. If it's easy to say Nike is, Nike is, Nikes are, okay, Nicks are, then you don't hesitate.
Right? It's very comfortable for you. And whether it's Azure or Azure, it's comfortable. And so and we said, look, it's blue. You're right. And and and blue sky, and so it's related to the cloud. Yeah. And and that helped a lot. It it made it more logical. Right?
I mean, Microsoft, you know, I mean, very successful company, has been over the years, very good client of ours. But that logic point helped. And then it was a very strong trademark, which is getting harder and harder to do. And it's done incredibly well for them, partly because for the marketplace, and this was this was our, I think, fundamental rationale to to the Microsoft team, is that people do not expect Microsoft to come out with Azure, they expect Cloud Pro. And when you come out with Azure, they're gonna say, wow, what's going on at Microsoft?
What's happening there that they've got the confidence to do this? And I think that's exactly what happened. And I think that's a good it's a good story for, you know, other companies thinking about developing a name, is that you don't have to be descriptive. You just you just gonna walk yourself back into the competition. And if you do something that's unexpected coming from you, it's gonna be registered as bold and confident, and that means I should take a look at it.
I know it seems simple, and it is, but but it's it's hard for people to, you know, that that tendency is, yes, but the name has to tell the story. It doesn't have to tell the story. What it does is it has to set you up so you can tell the story. Right? And and in that sense, you know, a long time ago, and I I, I say this now.
I mean, it just came out of my mind, but we were talking to one client about, well, you know, it's not the story. And I said, listen, what what really matters here is the ability of the word, whether it's real or invented, to weave a story that's actually greater than the brand itself. And I think Azure did that. I think Vercel did that. And I certainly, Blackberry did it.
And all those things have done very well in the marketplace. I realize it is hard for a client team to sit in a room and look at slides or, you know, names on boards and say, well, I'm pretty comfortable with Cloud Pro. You know, and but but I I hear what you're saying about Azure. It it you know, you're we're asking them always to sort of, you know, take a leap, you know, over, like, over a canyon, But it's not that far of a jump and the canyon isn't that deep. It it it really isn't.
But I we we're very empathetic to clients who have to make that decision, and we don't have to live with it. Right? So we're we're empathetic and and we try to make sure we're recommending things that we think really work.

Yeah. I kind of wanted to dig into that point a little bit and kind of almost play like the devil's advocate because I've definitely kind of, you know, like, when you're at the conference, there's always, like, someone that's, like, oh, I don't know what any of these companies do. And they're just, like, they, you know, they're pointing out, like, some kind of, like, very, you know, they're they're in their kind of more, like, you know, for sale kinda category rather than, like, the Cloud Pro Cloud Pro where it's like, it doesn't it's not saying what it does on the 10, and they're like, you know, the at least I've heard people say that. So, like
Yeah. Oh, we we've heard we've heard it too. You know, the reality is Cloud Pro doesn't really tell you what I do either. Right? Yeah. It it it tells you that, oh, we're doing something in clouds, but conference and I see,

you
know, other companies that start with cloud or in with cloud. They they haven't done themselves. And, you know, their job is to tell their story, to tell it to the right people, to have a message around it, to maybe have a positioning line under it, accelerating development for sale, accelerating development, something like that. And so, you can tell your story pretty quickly. Humans are really adept and really quick at figuring out what's going on.
It doesn't have to be in the name. The the name is you know, we use the word vessel. Right? The name is a vessel that allows you to tell your story. It carries it in their marketplace. It's it's it's not the story. You can't tell a story. How could we tell what Vercel does in one name? You can't. But they can do it in a line, they can do it in a slideshow, in a deck, a presentation, and just that claim of we're gonna accelerate development.
Okay. I'm interested in that, and and the name's Purcell. So so in many ways, that name was pretty close to telling their story.

Yeah. Yeah. Very it's very cool. Yeah. That makes sense. And then kind of I want to ask you a question. So if someone's got you know, is working on an idea very, very early stage, they haven't raised money, they want the name. Have you got any kind of, like, processes that you kind of tell, like, people that, like, that really early stage, like, okay. Go, you know, start whiteboarding. Start, like, any anything that they could do to kind of come up with a better name than they might otherwise.
Yeah. Yes. We we do. And and and, you know, we get those calls, and we're always we're always helpful. Not everybody has money to to to do this.
So the first thing I say, and really anybody that works here that takes a call like that, would say, forget about naming right now. Just put that out of your mind. And when you if you're gonna whiteboard with a team, think about two things. Think about how you wanna behave in the marketplace. And and the and the second thing is think about how your brand is gonna, in a small way or in a big way, change the future, change a category, right?
Because any brand that's gonna be successful has to bring some level of change to it, right? It could be, again, a big leap and it could be a small leap, right? So if if you just focus on that, right, and you say, well, okay, behavior. Well, and I said, don't, you know, don't stop at, well, we we wanna be bold and aggressive. Okay.
Fine. But but what what does that mean? Then we say, take those behavior things and think about brands in the marketplace, not necessarily in your category, and say, well, we wanna be more like North Face, which is about adventure and less about, Patagonia, which is maybe more stylistic and and, you know, those kinds of qualities to it. I'm making this up. Out of that kind of dialogue becomes a sense of what you want to be, and you can inject a name in that and say, well, and just to play the game here, let's take Azure as a name.
And and and let's say this company says, okay, behavior wise, we we really wanna be, we like that north face, a sense of adventure, you know, keep the adventure going. Right? And and then you say, well, alright, here, you know, so and so came up and there's a list here and there's this name Azure on here. Could we use Azure as a vessel, right, to create a line of clothing that was about adventure? If the answer is yes, then keep it on the list.
Right? But you gotta work your way into name. You can't just start naming

things
because all you're gonna do is you're gonna have a bunch of clouds or infos or seeks or things like like that. So and then on that, you know, how you're gonna change the marketplace, right? Well that's that's a real thing. There's where your promise comes through, right? And whatever that promise is, you have to say, okay, people have to believe that we can do that.
So believability comes from letters and sounds that are more confident, right? Like b, you know, blackberry, two b's in there. B's very com very reliable. P, you know, is reliable. Q, there's a, you know, consonants, right?
And so then you start saying, okay, whatever we choose here, we wanna make sure we have, some good consonants in there. And we're fast, so what are the slow letters? Well, U, you know, O, O is a slow letter, so let's we can have an O or U in there, but we don't have we don't wanna have too many, right, in there. So you start getting some criteria that people don't think about. And between that exercise, it usually yields some good thinking, right?
They still may end up with, you know, InfoSeek or something like that, but at least they've set some standards. Yeah. We just say, forget about naming right now. Let's think about behavior, how you're gonna change the future, right? And, and that's where we start with clients, right?
We don't say, we don't start, you know, in the first meeting, well, have you what are your thoughts about a name? You know, no, we say, you know, we usually send an email in advance to say, we're really gonna start talking about how you wanna behave in the marketplace. And and, you know, I'll give an example, and Microsoft versus Apple. They're both very good names, but they're very different. And they instantly, and I mean instantly begin to telegraph a type of expectation behavior.
Right? Both good. Apple just being more open, right, and and not corporate. Microsoft, serious and and corporate. So now along the way, Microsoft could pull that back and become, you know, more creative, more open, if you will, but harder to do. Apple could pull that back and become more corporate, but harder to do. So so so they're they put themselves on a path, right? Yeah. And and so what what path do you wanna be on, right? Vercel, it's about acceleration.
It's an innovative name, it's a coin name, so we know it's gonna deliver on that because it's it's new to the world, and that's the path that they wanna be on. You know, impossible is a different path, right? It's like we've got an attitude, we've got an attitude, talk about, you know, bringing change to the world, we got an attitude that's gonna be reinforced with lots of science and lots of really talented people, at Impossible Foods. Counterintuitive, right?

Yeah, like you're kind of going against,
like, the Yes, because their urge early on was, and we totally empathetic, we wanna fit into Whole Foods, the grocery store, the chain. And so, and I described it as well, that's kind of you wanna be sort of a crunchy hippie brand. And, well, you know, we we end up we're gonna make good food and we're gonna wanna peel it. I said, all you're gonna do is you're gonna walk yourself right into all those other products that are trying to be crunchy and feel good and wellness. And we can do that, and we did do it for them.
We we we, you know, we they they wouldn't let that go. And and I understood. I said, okay, well, look, let's do let's move into two columns here. Column a is let's fit into that world of healthiness and crunchiness, you know, good for you, and then let's do some something different, and and that's where impossible.

Yeah. That that's actually a a good thing to think about as well. It's like, is it a way to stand out as well in terms of, like, just being very different and trying to do it? Like, do do you take that into account?
Like Yes.

Is this gonna make me stand out in the market kind of thing?
Yes. I I I mean, there's no sense in launching a brand that at some level, you're not gonna stand out. You're you're just remember what I said earlier, I think in today's digital economy, which is what we all compete in, even if you're selling toothpaste, you have to get early interest and early share to really survive, and not not not to mention thrive. And and so standing out, we're not suggesting you you stand out because this has got to be completely crazy and all that sort of stuff. No.
I mean, there's just there's a limit to how far you wanna go. You wanna be different, right? And it's always within the context. So Azure for Microsoft was very distinctive. If if that had been Apple coming out with Azure, would have been, oh, okay. Well, I kind of expect that. It's still interesting, but not as interesting as with Microsoft.

Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. David, I think we're coming towards the end. So I kind of wanted to just ask you, if there's one thing that you would say to founders at the stage of, like, naming that you would say, like, just remember this. Like, whatever you do, just just just think about this before you pick a name.
Yes. There is one thing. And it it always gets people's attention. The name you choose will be used more often and longer than any other marketing device. Your color will change, your positioning will change, your product will change. Right? And it's that one thing that people cannot take your competitors cannot take away from you. It's that that those two things by itself make it a highly valuable, highly important thing. So take your time. Think about it.
The right name, right, not just a good name, right, and and that really is my theme, when we talk to clients is, if you want the right name, you wanna work with us. If you think, well, we just need a good name, then you can probably do that on your own, right, because, you know, anybody can create a name. But our emphasis is creating the right name, and if you get the right name, the return on investment is a hundred x, a hundred x. And and, you know, the wall behind me, all those things that that the the return on investment has been incredible.

Yeah.
So so when someone says, well, we don't we don't have, you know, enough money for to that, it it's it's like point 001% of, of a three year budget of in marketing. Yeah. Easy for me to say when someone someone else is paying it more. Yeah.

Yeah. That's true. And maybe, maybe it's gonna work out cheaper if they don't have to buy the .com domain as well.
That's right. That's right.

Well, the you'll you'll find them a name that's gonna doesn't need the .com. It's already available for $10.99 on Namecheap. Free. Yeah. David, thank you so much. I really appreciate. I'm so glad we got to do this. So thanks for thanks for coming on and sharing. My play.