Guillermo Rauch, founder of Vercel: Developer Experience, AI and v0

You have to stay super grounded. You have to, understand the technology very deeply as well, the engineering of of the products. But on the other hand, you know, you have to also build a company, a business, a machine, so to speak. The way that I think about it is my job is to help grow and create products like Next. Js.

And, also, there's another product that that's the Vercel company. And the Vercel company is like an invention machine, and our job is to and I I actually use engineering principles to do this. Like, how can I streamline Vercel as a product? Meaning that if we hire somebody, they have a great time onboarding themselves to the company. Like, it's like user onboarding.

Right? And if they have an idea, you know, what is the path from idea to ship, like, almost like the meta version. What do we do with Vercel is help you go from idea to ship. And if you join Vercel, you probably have ideas around how to improve products, bring new products to life. So there's a whole side of me that optimizes that other meta product, which is Vercel, the company.

This seems expensive, but then I built an integration with them in about twenty minutes. So I had spent two days banging my head off the wall trying to build it directly with Okta. And then with WorkOS, I then have, like, many, many SSO providers, like, supported instead of just one. So, yeah, like, for me, WorkOS is one of the nicest developer experiences I've encountered in the last, like, five years probably. And it's so surprising because a bunch of the developer team are at GitHub and therefore very good at the job.

Are they putting themselves out there? Are they shipping? So, like, I I try to think a lot about, like, is this someone that I could see myself collaborating with on shipping stuff, right, and, like, making making an impact in the world? I try to think of every hire as a huge responsibility to myself even if it's just, you know, you know, we're at over 500 folks now. So if it's the last person that joins in their you know, in a deeply nested team in the hierarchy, I still feel a huge amount of responsibility to that person because, it's like an investment.

We are gonna make it work together. We're gonna grow together. You're gonna have amazing tools, resources, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But you also have to have that other side of you of, like, I really wanna make it. I wanna push.

I wanna make myself visible, present. I wanna, you know, something that stands out to me about people that that no matter what their age, experience, etcetera, is just putting yourself out there. The worst thing you can do, is hide. Like, you know, have sort of, like, be paralyzed by not asking the right questions to make progress in whatever you have to do. And so I I pay attention to that a fair amount.

Communication skills. Like, ultimately, you know, as AI continues to make a progress in making their lives easier in creating things, like, actually the actual crafting of things, communication becomes even more important. Right? Like, on one hand, first of all, you are communicating with AI to get your job done, which means, like, you you are prompting these things, and you're also communicating with individuals. And most, I think, actually in the form of, like, shipping things, like, hey.

Like, communicating with customers, understanding their pain points

Right? Like, so I have to grow this thing. I have to, like, make it a fair trade, between the sort of, like, recipient of the product or service and and what I get in return, etcetera. So the more you can complement those skills, anything, probably sound like a broken record, but, like, it's it's probably one prompt away to at least immerse yourself a little bit even if it's superficial in other areas of the business or the job that you're maybe not the most used to. So maybe you're a front end engineer.

You're literally today one prompt away with your AI assistance of choice to strengthen your skills in a hundred other dimensions. So that that ability to be full stack in that manner is hugely appreciated.

And we're seeing a lot of traction with v zero, especially because of that deep integration with Vercel. And so you have those situations actually where, like, you might be a super independent thinker, founder, you know, you just wanna do your own thing, but then you realize that if the API adapters are right, if, like, Vercel is actually giving you the right interface to work at and develop your, you know, business tools, skills, products, then it's actually much better to do it at Vercel than do it on your own. So to your point, identifying the Jareds of the world and and empowering them and and making sure they have everything they need to succeed is is is a big part of what we do.

But Yeah. But, legitimately so what I what I thought was, first of all, like, I go on a lot of these podcasts and, like, this is actually the most useful version of prep that I've gotten. And it looked good. It had your style and your brand on it. So, yeah, it's I think this proof point of software is now becoming this very, like, fluid thing.

It used to be very rigid. And I think chapter one of ourselves make it less rigid. Right? Like, we have a billboard that says we are the you can deploy on Friday's cloud. You know, like, it's okay.

Like, you can deploy frequently. I shared a story a lot of what one of my favorite brands in the world that became a Vercel customer. I remember doing this and part of you were asking, like, what a day to day looks like for me. We bring customers in to talk to the company a lot. And this particular case, they were talking to the executive team because they're a very important customer.

And one of the things that they talked about was when we asked them, what has Vercel done for you? Like, you open ended questions. What what what good have we brought to you? And, of course, we ask also ask what bad have we done. And, one of the things they pointed out was, like, look, we used to deploy one support.

And because, the holiday season is very big for us, one quarter of the year was actually kind of maybe blocked off because of, like, code freeze. So we kinda deploy a couple times a quarter, you know, like, that's just the normal. And if you heard what this brand was, it would be like, this is actually one of the most iconic technology rooted companies in the world, but they were paralyzed by their fear to ship software. And so chapter one of Vercel was like, you know, now they're deploying several times a week. In fact, that for me is even, like, you should be deployed a hundred times a day, but, like, you know, everyone has their own sort of journey with that.

You know, Google deploys a million times a day and, like, some companies deploy once a year. So, like, we we need to bridge that gap. And I I mentioned that we went from very rigid software, and now it's sort of, like, liquefying because okay. Now that thing that felt fixed in time and space is now constantly being edited. And that was kinda, like, the initial, actually, mission of the company or tagline.

It was, like, we we I called now our original deployment platform real time global deployments. Global in nature because, like, making things fast everywhere is so important to me. But real time and because of my background in Socket. IO and real time communication, real time, I I didn't think people had yet heard of what I could possibly mean of, like, real time and deploying, but the idea was you make it so fast and agile that you're constantly editing your product in real time. And lo and behold, you know, to some degree, we've achieved success in that mission, but I think AI is making it even, like, you know, way more fluid because AI is making it such that you don't even have to do that expensive translation process of intent to the data structures, the algorithms, the libraries, the modules.

In fact, you're asking about how I talk to the product. I discover a lot of libraries through v zero because the AI knows about every module that exists. And, you know, I I'm totally online. I spent a lot of time on x. So I I keep track of, like, oh, there's this new library for this.

There's this new thing for this. But it's hard. Like, you have to actually, you know, like, even then, like, I might miss out on things. So having the AI act as, like, the expert recommendation system of how to implement my idea, on one hand, actually feels a little, like, I'm not gonna deny that it does feel a little weird. A lot of people ask me, like, what's gonna happen to my job and, like, things like that.

And, like, you know, I mostly, like, just chuckle because I believe that jobs are are are safer than they've ever been because, you know, it's the creativity that drives these creations and it's the intent still that drives these creations. So there has to be a human in charge directing the orchestra. But I do think it's a little weird in the sense of, like, you have to give up a little bit. Like, you're used to, like, handcrafting every line of code. And now you have to let go a bit and realize that, like, hey.

Like, I could just tell the AI to do it, and that is that is a a a a change for the industry, I think. The the one thing that even just popped in my mind was I remember the reception to Prettier. So Prettier is a, you know, JavaScript formatter. It used to be that people formatted code and made the made it look like visually pretty on their own. The the pre automatic formatting base and, and a lot of, poll requests would be people nitpicking each other like, no.

No. Like, this should be it should be in a different line. It seem look clear. And so Frigier came along and just, like it almost seemed like overnight, it eliminated all this decision paralysis, all this pointless conversations. I even remember being marginally upset that they added configuration because I was like, you were the one that was supposed to save us from the pointless conversations. Like, now we have now we can have conversations on the configuration.

We are still largely, I think, industry wide used to writing every line of code by hand, suesing every library, like, doing all the due diligence and whatnot. And we're going into a world where we can delegate a lot of this, so it's it's exciting.

Like, you have to, like, set up the IDE or in your repo, and you understand code. What v zero gets me really excited about is that it's still producing code behind the scenes, And you even get to see it, which I think is is an important property because AIs are not perfect, and they do require auditing. Right? Like, you also don't wanna relinquish control so much. Like, the AI just goes off and, like, builds the Skynet.

But but is that idea of, like, let's put the design first. Let's put your ideas, creativity. We're building a lot of features to make it a lot easier to, like, infuse your design system, qualities, colors, preferences, your con enriching the context so that what you create is in a certain style. So we look at it as more there's a actually, one of our most popular blog posts on the Vercel blog is about what a design engineer is. It's funny because we've written about so many different things, like, awesome, like, technical deep dives, React, Nextiva's.

But I think by sheer traffic, one of our most popular blog posts is, what is a design engineer? And why is this role so important, why it's changed Vercel, and I think the industry so profoundly. And it's a role of a person that infuses both to sort of the design and aesthetic sense, but can actually ship and have influence over the products. And that combination in the industry actually has been traditionally very rare. In fact, I'll tell you what.

Like, when I first came to the valley, it was rumored that these people existed. It was, like, it's spoken of as, like like, myths. Oh, yeah. There's, like, Rasmus at Dropbox who is, like, writing c plus plus over here, but also, like, designing every pixel over here. And that to me always felt like the natural end state of software, by the way.

Like, yes, it was rare. It's becoming lesser, but it does feel like the end state of software because, like, even borrowing from, like, Steve Jobs, like, intersection of, like, liberal arts and computer science, I think people that really appreciate the quality of products know that design led is the best way to build, is the most empathetic way to build because you're thinking about the customer. You're thinking about what they're gonna see. You know, the vast majority of people just do not understand code. They do not understand how things are built, but they do understand quality.

They want things to be fast. They want things to be intuitive. You know, a a huge part of the Vercel business is being built on the fact that customers can prove that ROI for themselves. It's not just that they ship more frequently. They come to us and they show us the receipts.

I had a customer show me the other day a a chart from Google Webmaster Tools. It's like how many pages are crawled. They switch to Next. Js, and, like, it goes like this. And so, literally, like, they released pent up energy in their business by making it more crawlable, faster for consumers, etcetera.

And I think when you think design led and when you're thinking about the front end first, you end up thinking more about what's actually good for your prod, for for your business, etcetera. And that's kinda how v zero proposes that you should build software.

Right? Like and they say this as a representative and sort of, like, hopeful representative developer speeches. If we're just building stuff that is good for us, meaning, like, it it's pleasurable to, like, write and whatever, like, absolutely critical feature. Like, yes. I wanna I want to have a system that's responsive, feels good, etcetera, But it has to be good for another customer.

If you're working on dev tools, the mental model that I use is you have two customers. You have your most direct customer that is your the developer or whatever, and that that developer is building software for somebody else. And so you have to have that somebody else in mind. I would argue it's even more important. I would argue that the way that markets shake out and because ultimately, customer is king, it's been proven time and time and time again.

Like, the there's in other domains, we've run the hypothesis of, like, maybe we are more important. No. The children are wrong. Like, the customer is more important. So you will find that you might get, like, the early traction, the early love, etcetera, and yet it's just not self sustaining because it's not economically self sustaining to have only that one customer in mind.

So, yeah, I think it's a this is a really good call. Try to think about the end end end end user as much as you can and and work backwards on that.

We're We're gonna have more software that's smaller, more ephemeral, more personal. Meaning, you're not gonna create, like, a gigantic, like, Swiss army knife software for every problem that you have. And that's a very positive thing because we have come from the army knife Swiss army knife software approach to the world. You know, I'm actually pointing there because there's a very successful company right next to ours called Salesforce. And Salesforce has made, you know, a entire category out of creating vast platforms of doing everything under the sun and solving every kind of problem.

And that's gonna continue to exist. I think a lot of companies definitely need that. And I think there's also gonna be a new wave of, like, maybe I don't need to try and, like, tame the beast to try to do this simple thing that I need. I can actually just generate the software that does that simple thing that I need more spontaneously. And the two will coexist.

You know? But going back to integrations, what's gonna happen is a lot of this software will be thin layers of UI on top of vast seas of integrations. Mhmm. And agents will even deepen that. You know, one thing I've observed at LLMs is that LLMs cannot produce a gigantic corpus of coherent software all at once.

Most immediate example is it wouldn't be efficient nor would it actually work with the state of the technology today for the AI to produce produce both React and the software that you need. Right? Like, it's just not how the world works. Like, the way that we think about building things is like, what abstraction can they build on top of? What what can they reuse?

And, actually, LLMs think very much this way. They try to build on top of infrastructure that already exists. And so what happens is a lot of the alpha with AI is having the AI connect all these dots, bring all these things together. And so for v zero, we're working on not only continuing to sort of extend that corpus of infrastructure that the agent can piggyback on, but also bringing in more integrations into sort of Vercel, the database ecosystem, all of the all of the tools that have already been built that don't have to be reinvented from scratch.

I've tried. Hey. We're about we're we're everything for you. Can you please shut down everything? Successful business. No. It's just not gonna work. It's energetically very inefficient. It's not my cup of tea because I like quality over quantity. I just like to build things that are, like, amazing for fewer things and, like, boil the ocean.

Actually, I Joe, put me in coach. Like, I love to talk to our existing customers about how they can improve their businesses with more of our products or, like, with bringing in other things to for sale. So imagine that you're building that product. The way that I would pitch you to you is not like we're the replacement for Salesforce. So start shutting down those contracts and turn away all those steak dinners and, you know, burn your three and four tickets.

What I would say is, look, we connect into Salesforce. We connect into Snowflake, and we have this this very opinionated take on how we solve this problem. We keep the human in the loop so it's not, you know, random acts of AI slop plastered over your users. And here's a case study of how, like, I've already helped this other customer. Oh, and by the way, this is how I use it myself to continue to improve our products, to to, improve retention, etcetera.

So that way of, like, pitching is just so much more effective. And I think for a lot of people, it takes it's like like an exercise. Like, it's like doing crunches. Like, it's painful to get into that mindset of, like, you don't have to do everything for everybody. And, like, it's actually it's actually nice to turn down and say, nope. We don't do that. Nope. We don't do that. Not yet. Not yet. No. No. Disorder here.

I'm in the business of eventually solving a wide range of problems for, like, lots of companies. And, of course, I have that because of my platform, I have that natural sort of gravitas towards customers see that we solved the hosting piece and the CDN piece and the WAF piece. Okay. Why don't you also solve this other problem that I have? Oh, and by the way, I love you guys, and here's a here's a bag of money.

Right? Yeah. Like, there is that conversation. And so but, realistically, because I'm building a platform, there's a distinction between building being in the product building mindset and being in the platform building mindset. The product building mindset, which is actually the most helpful when you start a company, because you have to prove that you do one thing excellently, is different from I have to create integration hooks, extensibility hooks.

I need to you know, for example, right now, we're investing a lot in our marketplace. We're investing a lot in helping startups build on top of Vercel. There's companies like Mintlify or Dubb that are creating multi tenant infrastructure systems by leveraging what we've already built. For example, Vercel can issue TLS certificates to create secure connection to arbitrary domain names faster than anybody in the market. And so we expose that as a platform primitive so that companies can give their own customers their own domain names extremely fast onboarding experiences, etcetera.

And so I'm allocating a lot of time to that sort of platform building side of Vercel and less to, like, let's ship a vector database. Now when I do identify that the platform foundations are changing, And the first thing that I noticed about AI is that AI in itself was going to be a platform. And that's when we started saying, well, it's gonna make a lot of sense to create the AI SDK. It's a new product, but in reality, what is if you think about what the AI SDK is doing I just shared yesterday. I I learned about this from a cardiac surgeon that they use this product, which is like the CHAGBT for medicine.

And it's used by turns out I didn't even know about this. 250,000 doctors in The USA. That product was created because we created the primitives for AI products. It's kinda it's one of those things where, like, it's emergent behavior. You don't know how people are gonna use, what they're gonna create, but you do have to facilitate the building blocks.

And so we said, AI is gonna be so important of a platform that we have to go in once again in product building mode. We created AI SDK. We created b zero. And the hope is that this will also bolster the Vercel platform as a whole. I don't think that there's gonna be one agent in the in the world of AI.

There's not gonna be one b zero. There's gonna be probably hundreds of thousands. We're actually open sourcing. If we have our AI chatbot template, can give can give you a head start. Even in code generation, we just added, Python support for code interpreting.

We have an open source version of v zero, essentially, where you can take pieces of it. I just heard also yesterday, an entrepreneur came to our office and he was saying, this product you're looking at, I just took a lot of pieces from that template. And so we're in the business of dogfooding the platform, creating these products. I'm very proud that v zero is, like, all stack end to end Vercel. It uses databases from the Vercel marketplace like Neon and Upstash, it Upstash Vector.

It uses connectivity into the clouds. It uses, products from, actually, all three big clouds. We use AWS, Bedrock. We use, some things from Azure. We use some things from from, Gemini.

And so creating this process is allowing us to put ourselves in the shoes of a customer. And I think there's gonna be a lot of these that are gonna create those AI native products of the future. And that's where, like you know, it's a big deal to your point. Like, it's a big deal for me to say, like, and a new product initiative begins. Like, you have to be kinda, like, almost, like, scared in a way.

Because if you're extending your product service endlessly, you might just be shipping a lot of slop, and that's scary.

In order to to use software, I had to freaking assemble my own computer first and put in the hard drive and put in the motherboard and put all the cables and and and the CPU and later the video card. I used Voodoo, Vivigart, or whatever that was called. And it turns out that, like, AI is not one of those fundamental substrates. Is if if if the cloud is like a global computer, there's now the sort of AI processing unit. And if you don't expose that and if you don't compute on top of that, like, I don't know that you can call yourself a software company in the future.

And so right now, we're a special case in them and we're calling them AI companies because they're the pioneer that said, I'm not gonna build with just a hard drive and the CPU. It actually maps very neatly into when you think about the the big winners of the of the previous generation of cloud. What were they? They were s three object storage, like, the hard drive of the cloud. E c two is the CPU of the cloud.

The memory, the RAM is ElastiCache, Dynamo, whatever. Right? But now it turns out, like, it's like a a computer that couldn't run Crysis, you know, to use the meme. Like, a computer without the capability to run AI is is a computer that's kind of useless. And, like, it's funny because, like, over the years, I did move on from computer to computer because of chasing software.

When I first adopted the math, I was actually pursuing the the very first time I got one of these is because of an app called TextMate. TextMate was a fast, beautiful editor, and I remember drooling over the screenshots. And I was like, I need to replace all of that hardware so that it can run TextMate. And what's gonna happen to every company in the world and every cloud hyperscaler in the world is that their customers are gonna ditch them if they cannot facilitate being that sort of, like, AI operating system, if they cannot run the infras, if they cannot facilitate the building of those applications, if they don't have the SDKs, If they don't make it easy too because, like, the we're, like, we've already overcomplicated the heck out of it. Right?

Like, to your point of vector databases and RAG and tag and whatever, like, there is, like, a new thing every night. And so Vercel has that opportunity in true Vercel sense of, like, try and bring simplification to that chaos.

We weren't ready for that. Companies that were building new adjacencies, like the experimental labs and whatnot? Amazing customers as well. I realized later on that, like, oh, that's not how I get all of Facebook because Facebook uses us for this one division. Like, you know, as entrepreneurs, we're very, like, oh, yeah.

One day, I'm gonna be running facebook.com because this team at Facebook uses my thing, but, like, very good customer to have. And then later on, as you mature a little bit more, I think you have the opportunity to start, like, biting at chunks of more important workloads. And and, typically, it's gonna be companies that are not, like, Silicon Valley native because they actually I'm obviously very biased towards San Francisco, but, like, it's awesome be be able to partner with the people that are, like, sweating the details of, like, froneth every every day and every night if your company has been a more traditional business and you're now wanting to leapfrog into the future. Right? And so there's a very clear mapping to that to the AI world.

If you're building dev tools, you're gonna have startups that are building, like, net new products that assume that AI is a given. There's gonna be people that are, like, testing the waters with AI. You have to be careful with those because, like, some of those are, like they're gonna, like, define the future of your company, and some of those are actually gonna, like you should have them, but, like, don't build up unnecessary, like, dreams and hopes of, like, oh, yeah. There's that AI experimental team at freaking, like, Wells Fargo, and, like, they are promising they're gonna renew all of banking worldwide with AI. And it might as well happen, but it's no secret that, you know, every major company in the world has a top down mandate to go and play with AI.

And so I partner with those teams, but it's very important to understand that, like, it's experimental. And then the other one is actually very, very, very, very exciting because enterprises are not gonna be the the ones that, like, move immediately into the most risky thing that and that's why they're enterprises, and that's why they're successful. But at some point, they're gonna wanna leapfrog, and you have to be ready for that transition. You have to be ready to have the maturity, the sophistication, the ease of use, all of the above so that you're not just fixated in experimental stuff. And one of the most important, I would guess, like, milestones in Vercel was when we started getting that takeoff velocity of, like, oh, now we've more of the Internet that is less the Wild West, so to speak.

And getting those was, like, a ton of work of maturing the technology. We couldn't have done that in the very early days of the company. Another kind of customer that's fascinating is when you can run a mission critical workload of a very, very large scale up is also a very exciting, sort of for us, like, Zapier. We run, like, huge parts of Zapier. We run, Notion's, entire marketing side.

We run OpenAI's marketing side. Like, when you get to, like, very, very large scale, very high traffic, but it's still sort of, like, not, like, 10 layers of, like, procurement legal and, like, that kind of work that you have to do.

And I remember thinking, like, that is, like like, super extra boss mode, founder mode, advanced level of play in the game. Because it would have been so tempting to say, yes. Run it all on us. When you're actually not ready, it could be devastating. You could let them down.

I've I've now seen this a lot with there's so many gigantic companies that in our past were like, well, I would love to go all in on Vercel. And my answer to that has been, let's do it incrementally so that we prove ROI for you and for us. We don't boil the ocean. And we kinda master the expertise of, like, how do bring massive workloads even one page at a time where, for example, Vercel access a CDN and, like, only, like, the first page is on Vercel and the rest is proxy passed to the existing workload. So having your ability to, like, modulate your own success and your own ambition is also really important.

You have to the hardest thing about being a founder is that you have to modulate ambition and realism. Realism is how can I actually do an exceptional job for this customer and deliver value today, and I know that it's gonna have the highest degree of availability, security, durability, feature richness, etcetera? And on the other hand, the ambition of, like, you know, everyone thinks of, like, Silicon Valley as the HBO Silicon Valley show of, like, sell big, go big, or go home. Like like, conquer the stars. You have to have that too.

And so that's where, like, good taste and discernment and integrity. These are, like, the most important values for founders. They're very important values for employees as well when you hire. That balance of, like, realism and ambition and integrity and ethics and honesty and quality and pride and craft, very important values as well to to have in your in your toolbox.

Another very useful skill to develop taste is be just super honest with yourself. Invite honesty from customers and peers. Invite them to actually, like, say exactly what they think. Even catch them in their hesitation of, like, oh, that's cool. Like, well, tell you about, like, do you actually, like, love this thing?

Like, do you use it? Is like, is it garbage? You're gonna this is not gonna hurt my feelings. Like and then when you have enough samples in that sample set of, like, this is what people actually like or this is what good looks like, what this this is what good sounds like. That's how you actually form good taste when it comes to to product building.

And then on the question of, like, how do you hire people where you can assess that they have these values, that was, I think, the hardest one. And, you know, like, the only recipe is, again, like, collecting large sample sets of data. There's heuristics of, like, the kinds of questions that you can ask. I always tell people when you hire and you hire from big name companies, the tendencies for people to over embellish their contributions. The reality is that for really successful tech companies, they are legitimately like rocket ships.

They're like the starship. They're rare. When they're successful, they're overwhelmingly successful. When they're successful, they have such market pull that they can even make mistakes. They can, like like, product market fit tends to, like, repair and replenish and reinvigorate energy into the company and into the mission so naturally that it doesn't mean that this company can fall asleep at the wheel.

But it does mean that when you have somebody that worked there, it's hard sometimes to disentangle what the contribution to the rocket ship was actually about. Like, were they sitting on a stool in the corner of the rocket ship and, like, just, like, watching and, like like, oh.

And then evaluating future work is their important one, which is, like, what does that slope look like for for future improvement?

Like, it does feel like we're creating software as a community together. Mhmm. And all of this is mediated by and modulated by feedback. And, like and so it's gonna again, it's gonna be hard to say, like, oh, yeah. Yeah.

Like, I did a ton of work. You you can't really see it, but, like, it's it's trust me, bro. Like, it exists. So that I've been thinking a lot about that in in the in in the context of, like, that idea of, like, building as you think almost and building as customers think in in in in that conversation with them.

And the product is in the marketing. Like, literally, there's just a big page with a button, and then you press that button and you start using this virtual headless web browser that you can talk to with AI. Actually, another company has done this extremely well is LiveKit.io. LiveKit, also provides the infrastructure for AI companies, but in the form of, like, WebRTC and, like, real time audio video. And if I remember correctly, you can just, like, live test speaking to an agent, and it's, like, the most natural real time conversation possible.

So these are two examples of, like, well, there's no explaining to do. Like, you just go and you feel the you're you're almost signed up to the product. And so that blending of marketing product education documentation, it even speaks to the prior insight of, like, this is the job now. Like, we're all full stack. We all build experiences, and we deeply integrate them, and we're responsible for every dimension of it.

It's not that, oh, I just I'm I'm just the guy that build, like, the super cool, like, WebRTC thing. I'm just over here. Like, the job is for somebody else. Like, I don't know. Like, you'll figure it out.

And, like, oh, we have a shit marketing website, but, like, it doesn't matter because, like, the tech is great. That feels like the nineteen nineties were, like, software was so scarce that there was one vendor in the world that could do the kind of database that you needed, and they had to ship a mainframe computer to your office or data center to, like, actually procure the software. Things are moving at such a pace now that you even have to look at your communication with the customer and the way that you present yourself as latency, free frankly. Like, the page might have loaded faster, but, like, if I'm not grokking what it what the hell you're building, then if we actually have a very holistic latency measurement, then your p 99 is two months. You know what I mean?

Duh. Of course, someone was gonna do it. And and, by the way, this is why I'm I'm so excited about entrepreneurs building with AI because I legitimately think there's millions of obvious things to be built right now. Mhmm. And this is an one that is and, again, to their credit, these these two guys are, like, so cracked.

Like, it's obvious in retrospect, and it's obvious to them. But, like, why wouldn't they have CICD for AI driven human in the loop localization? Like, it's just the most obvious thing in the world. And so these people are very much doing what I was mentioning as the future building. They build in public great taste, great communication skills, and easy to understand products and open source. A lot of this is just, like, out in the open. And, yeah, I'm just super excited about this one.