STOP Using Cheap Red Light Panels! Here’s What Actually Works

When you're using panels for this, it's great because it's a cheap and easy way to get it out to market. Like strap a bunch of LEDs to A to a circuit board and put it in a box that like how much cheaper and easier can you get? The problem is that as a Photon delivery system, this is not very accurate. So if you're 2 inches closer or two inches further away, it's a really big difference on the dosing. When you're using LE DS, they emit light in what's called a Lambertian patterns.

When you're trying to dose internal tissue, it's really not, not, not the best. It just doesn't allow you to kind of penetrate through to that. And if you are turning up the power enough to penetrate through to the internal tissue with an LED, then the superficial tissue is being overdosed. And so there's just a balance there to be found. That's essentially what we've done with our devices is a deep red is one of the, the best wavelengths to be able to use

for the shallower tissue. Then we use lasers for the the infrared to penetrate through and and dose the internal tissue and photo acceptors. And we are live for us. Don't worry brother. Dude awesome. So excited to be here today. Hey, excited to be chatting with you man. Where are you located at? I'm in central Mexico up in the mountains. It's a, a mountain town called Queretro, which is a just a been

a great place to live. I, I, I normally live in, in China, but I moved to Mexico when COVID started without really intentionally doing so. It just, we, we went traveling because China was going crazy with COVID and we don't want to get locked in and we got locked out. So my dog and my house and everything were, were still there and I couldn't get back to them. And so we, we moved to Mexico kind of just overnight, just just without, you know, being able to get back to our house.

So we've been here for about four years now. Awesome. Where? Where are you from originally? Atlanta. Atlanta, so I I want to watch you, man. Like how? How'd you go from Atlanta to China, New Mexico, I guess with the pandemic, but what brought

you to China? I studied Chinese in school and I, I went over as part of my Chinese study to go study at Nanjing University and I really liked it. And so I wanted to move back and I did, I, I was starting a business and I got up to a point where he could kind of pay me enough to, to leave school and, and go kind of do, do my own thing from a, a, an entrepreneurial standpoint.

And I love that. I've always kind of liked building businesses and, and you know, one nice thing about being young and being an entrepreneur is you don't know what you don't know. And so there's a, there's a, there's a hubris that goes with that. And, you know, hubris and, and ignorance are, are pretty highly correlated, I imagine. And, and that's, that's kind of what drove me to, to start building my first businesses in China. And I, I loved it.

So I stayed almost almost 20 years there. Nice, nice. When when did you launch Kenyan? About 4 1/2 years ago, I I actually met my current business partner through China. I was, I played rugby with his younger brother in Guangzhou for the City team, the Guangzhou Rams, who I love the one of my favorite sports ever. I, I took it up at the the ripe young age of 38, which is probably not when you want to take up rugby if I had to

suggest it for people. But I was playing rugby with, with Max, who was the younger brother of my, my business partner, Tom. And I wanted to start a business that was mission driven. And I was saying some things to him about this when we're having a coffee that triggered for him and the idea that his brother had had used some of the same

language. And so he connected us and we, we ended up spending, you know, two months before he even looked at technology or building a company or anything talking about what our mission should be. And, and what that came down to in the end was increasing the quality of life, the largest number of people we can in the most substantial and measurable way we can. And that that kind of holds us. That's essentially our North

Star as a company. And it holds us accountable for, you know, how do we get this, you know, get technology on people that's going to help them improve their life? How do we keep it cheap enough that a lot of people can, can, can adopt it, But how do we make it something that's meaningful enough from a measurement standpoint that's going to really kind of change the trajectory of what they do?

And, and we, we see so many different testimonial stories coming in these days of people getting out of pain and, and back into movement that it's, it's yeah, it's been, it's been a really gratifying journey to to go through. No man, it's awesome. Were were you because you were building businesses before launching Kenyan 4 1/2 years ago? So like what was the difference? Like what? What kept you from continuing on the the prior business endeavours before starting this

one? We ended up being acquired. It's a typically I, I, you know, the, the smaller ones when I was younger, we, we ended up selling off and, and having them acquired at a, at a lower, at a smaller size because I would hit a ceiling for what my competence level would allow me to do. So it's, it's great to have hubris, but occasionally you run into a wall of reality from a performance standpoint and a competent standpoint. And you know, my first business,

I did everything. I didn't know how to delegate, I didn't know how to plan, I didn't know how to like. So you just end up learning a lot of different things and, and there's a ceiling to that from an entrepreneurial standpoint. And so every business kind of got, you know, bigger and bigger as we went and really started kind of getting closer and closer to what, you know, what those missions were that I felt could move the needle from a systemic standpoint.

So the business before this was a, an LED lighting and controls business when LE DS were coming out trying to reduce electrical load, trying to leverage technology in a way that could really help promote people adopting green and clean energy sources a lot faster because you could lower the load from a

lighting standpoint. And then also just doing things from a health standpoint with with lighting. So that was actually acquired by Eaton, which is the, the, I think the second largest lighting company in the world at the time. And yeah, open another, another

chapter and, and here we are. And I feel like with, with each successive business, it's dialed in a little bit more directly what that outcome wants to be from a systemic standpoint, which with what we're doing right now, we're, we're finding most of our users are moving away from pharmaceutical solutions and finding a really a much healthier path to treat the underlying issue of inflammation or what's causing their pain versus kind of trying to dope their way through it.

And and again, that's, that's really in line with what our, our kind of ethos and, and focus and mission are as a company. What, what was the first business? Was it in the health space too or totally, totally apart from that? Totally apart. So it's it's come more and more in this direction over time. The first business was a fabric business buying and, and reselling and then kind of designing and buying and reselling and and re engineering and etcetera, different fabrics.

And what I found was that when I'm in commodity businesses, the amount of value that I can add for those is, has been more limited. What I, I tend to do better at is when and what I tend to have happier users on is, is when I can synthesize a lot of really difficult data.

And so for what we do with Kenyan, that's really kind of there's a gap between what we see from laser and technology and engineering experts and Physiology experts relative to how light therapy could be applied to, to the Physiology and what you can expect from a adaptation standpoint. And so we, we really live in the middle of that with a, a really strong kind of, you know, our, our CTO is a anatomic physicist with a huge amount of laser experience.

Our, our chief physiologist is an MIT guy who's a bioinformatics kind of specialist. And we're, we're really, really deep on both the, the technical and the, I would say both of these are technical. So the technical aspect from a, an engineering and, and product

and laser standpoint, but also from a Physiology standpoint. And I I think that separates us from a lot of the the competitors we have in the field. Yeah, the, the red light therapy is getting super hot within the biohacking space. And when I go to like these conferences to speak on nutrition, I mean, there are more and more boosts and companies and and brands that

are coming into that market. Were you dealing with any type of ailment or injury that they kind of motivated you to dive down that rabbit hole even further? 11 big one is I'm just getting old. I, I mean, a mid middle age now 45 years old, turning 46 this year, still playing rugby, still training CrossFit, still still a bit of a knucklehead as to how to avoid the injuries and, and,

and the downtime from that. And I, I think, you know, the old kind of the, the old injuries that have come out of that from kind of being a lifelong competitor, torn meniscus with meniscus, you know, surgery is hit or miss. And even when you have a, you know, a hit, when you have a successful surgery, the outcomes aren't great. So with meniscus tears, you often end up just kind of lifelong chronic inflammation. And, and so that's, that was one

point lower back injuries. I tore muscles in my lower back grappling when I was younger. And so that flares up old injuries. We find this with a lot of athletes that we interact with is that applying targeted laser therapy to this tissue, often the tissue that's had traumatic damage from sports from injuries from surgery, you know, from car

accidents, it doesn't heal 100%. And so you see impaired cardiovascular delivery to that tissue and people often re injure the same tissue because of that. So it just becomes kind of a weak point. And, and for me that, that weak point was the left knee in the lower back. And it doesn't help that I'm, you know, 6 foot 3 as a Crossfitter is, is a little bit kind of outside the, the standard deviation kind of

norms. And so I, I, you know, with deadlifts and things like this or, or like trying ego lifting, trying to go too heavy on Olympic lifts and stuff like this, I tweak my back a lot. And yeah, so those those two things, it used to be if I tweak my back doing deadlifts, I'm out for a couple of months. We now have with these targeted

laser therapies. I'm I'm back in and moving and, and probably not moving, you know, the 100% of the weight, but like back in and moving 50% of the weight within three or four days, which is life changing for me. That's just been kind of awesome. So that's how I've been applying it. Personally, I would say the one thing that's come up recently that we work with a lab out of Japan that developed a a really cool therapy protocol called proximal priority therapy.

And it's essentially taking the modules and aligning them on your neck because your, your largest blood vessels in your body are, you know, kind of go through your neck and that gives you very kind of close to the surface access to them. And so doing the neck for, for treating the blood with the lasers and then doing the, the lower guts, your gut is just the

center of everything. You know, both, both from a neurological standpoint, which is kind of counter intuitive, but also from an immune health and, and what they call from the research standpoint affect. So just how you feel your mood on a daily basis. So we Long story short, I've been, I've been doing this kind of neck and and gut treatment that we started with them just from a trial standpoint. After about 10 days or two weeks, I was just feeling

amazing from this. And so I've, I've kept that one on for like the last year. I get sick, you know, 110th of as much as I used to. I have two kids and so they drag and stuff from school. This has been amazing for an immune immune response and, and from a training recovery and really just that affect like how I feel on a daily basis standpoint. So if people are up for trying it out, it's it's a, it's a really cool protocol to try.

Were you dabbling with, you know, using laser treatment for your ailments before you built your own? Were you like looking at other competitors in the market using those seeing benefit from them and like OK, I can do this better? Yeah.

We, we and I don't like to knock other people's products because there's this kind of a this, this with new technologies, there's always kind of these, these kind of phases of how products roll out and and get better over time. But I think, you know, essentially a couple of things that were out there when we launched our product.

The only thing that was out there from a laser standpoint when we launched our product was essentially desktop handheld devices which are both 30 to $50,000 and not convenient and not travel friendly and hard to build real kind of meaningful habits around. And those were the only ones that were really dosing effectively the, the kind of the

first generation. But we look at, look at as early generation designs for photobiomodulation or panels and they're just not very good for it's, it's great because it exposes people to the, the idea and the kind of the concept and, and kind of some of the underpinning mechanisms and research around photobiomodulation. But what we've found and what the literature has has shown from a medical research standpoint is that light is kind

of like pharmaceuticals in, in a couple of ways. 1 is that the body responds to it in what's known as a, a biphasic or Arnt Schultz curve, which essentially just means like the more photons you deliver up to a certain point, the better the outcomes get. And then it jumps the shark and the more photons you deliver, the less effective it is. So that kind of sine wave type look when you're using panels for this, it's, it's great because it's a cheap and easy

way to get it out to market. Like strap a bunch of LEDs to A, to a circuit board and put it in a box that like how much, how much cheaper and easier can you get? The the problem is that as a photon delivery system, this is not very accurate. So if you're 2 inches closer or two inches further away, it's a really big difference on the, on the dosing and, and the second piece of that dosing is that when you're using LE DS, they emit light in what's called a

Lambertian pattern. So they're, they're a chip based technology. The chips emit light in 360°. They're, they're, they're kind of fab through what's, they're

grown through what's called a metal organic vapor, chemical vapor deposition process where you have like a, a sapphire base and you just grow these, these semiconductors on top of it. They've been etched. But when you put them into an electronic part to be able to use them in a, in a device, what happens is that restricts that 360° emission pattern back down to 120°. That's still really broad.

So when you're, when you're trying to get into internal tissue and dose some of these internal areas of the body and it's some of the internal photo acceptors, it's, it's not terrible for, for dosing, you know, skin if you'd like to increase collagen and, and kind of do an anti aging thing, it's still not great because you can't really measure it very effectively and you can't standardize it.

So you don't really see these used in medical trials, but when you're trying to dose internal tissue, it's really not, not the best it, it just doesn't allow you to kind of penetrate through to that. And if you are turning up the power enough to penetrate through to the internal tissue with an LED, then the superficial tissue is being overdosed. And so there's just a balance

there to be found. And that's, that's essentially what we've done with our devices is, is balanced a red light, Deep red is one of the, the, the best wavelengths to be able to use for the shallower tissue. But even with the deep red, you wanted to be able to penetrate a little bit better than it does with 120. So we use deep red for our superficial treatment and for the tissue that's, that's more superficial kind of the skin tissue and just just below that.

And that's actually a, with a 30° primary optic. So it goes from 120 back down to 30. And then we use lasers for the, the infrared to penetrate through and, and dose the internal tissue and, and photo acceptors. And and you know, it's a really big difference from an outcome standpoint that you can drive when you're dosing essentially in 3D versus just a a like a 2D superficial dosing, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Plus it's just way more convenient how you'll have it like set up on a like a strap where you can put it wherever it needs to be. I mean, the people that have like the massive panels, I've typically see them just in like the corner of their bedroom emitting red light through the room. But like not dosing, not standardized, not effective at

all. Yeah, again, it's, it's why you don't see them in research papers is because, you know, researchers have set amount of dollars they're going to put into things. And so they want to know what the dose is so they can know what the outcomes are going to be. And when you're doing that from a, a just kind of spray and pray type approach, you, you can't. And and you know, we, we work with a number of different labs

around the world. There's, there's been such, such a kind of an awesome, you know, it's just a great time to be alive as a technologist for being able to interact with these different labs about what they're, what they're treating with this. But that's one of the things we found is like the labs are also super excited because they're like, you mean, I don't have to pay for like a, a, you know, 30

to $50,000 device. And I can get, you know, I can take this and put it on 100 people instead.

And, and kind of, yeah. So it's, it's been, that's, that's been one of the, the best things for us though, is the, the kind of how our, our assumptions in designing the product were that if we reduce the price from, you know, 30K plus down to sub $500 that we can, you know, we're, we're going to drive more adoption and that people will consider this instead of taking NSAID's or opiates or whatever they're using for their, their pain right now or their inflammation

and chronic pain right now. And if we can help them make it easier to use, make it travel friendly, makes it easy to charge, make it something we, we actually had one of the first NFL teams that we started working with. They're on planes so much that their, their head physio was like, I can't get my guys in a, in a bed for these things, but

they love using the devices. But when I carry it on the plane, I got to carry these things and they're bringing out the rubber gloves every time I go through security. So we went just on his behalf. We went through a couple more extra FCC processes just to make sure that that you can carry it on a plane with you. The batteries are all cleared. It's not going to blow it up like Samsung devices or anything

like this. You're, you're, you know, you can maintain your like while you're traveling on the road, you can maintain your habits because you know, if you're, if you're able to stack this with something that you do on a daily basis, people see amazing results. This is, this is really what drives the best results is consistency. And what drives consistency is

habits. So, you know, there's a bunch of books out there, Atomic Habits, you know, a number of different books on why building habits is so powerful. But we've seen the same thing, particularly with our older users. They have very strong habits. And when you can get them to include this in with their pragmatic, not kind of aspirational habits, they do

amazingly. They they're, they're just so happy and they, they get, you know, great benefits from a tissue improvement standpoint, pain reduction, just seeing people get back in the move. And that's, that's, you know, again, it's our mission. It's what we're here for. But it's so, it's so gratifying. Totally, man. Can you kind of just go down the rabbit hole and talk about the Physiology? Like why is photobiomodulation beneficial? What's the use case scenario?

Who would benefit from it? Like just kind of go into the weeds on that. Absolutely. So I, I think there's a, a, there's a number of different

pathologies. So instead of kind of diving in for all the different pathologies, I, I'd like to just start with some of the mechanisms. Increased blood flow. We, we release nitric oxide into the blood. It's a dilating factor. So you see increased blood flow to the area that you're treating, but also when you increase nitric oxide into your blood flow, not only is it going to dilate those capillaries, it also teaches them to dilate more effectively.

So you have you, you de stiffen your cardiovascular tissue so your blood vessels get more pliable. And one of the big risks for older generation is when you don't have, it's kind of like your house. If you, if you think about kind of, instead of having pipes through our house, we have these, these blood vessels. And then when they get older and, and are, are rustier, they're going to break. And this is one of the things that's one of the the kind of largest risks for mortality for

older users. Is the fact that they're instead of in our body instead of being rust, it's just the fact that they stiffen. And so when you can increase pliability for this, these blood vessels, it makes a massive difference for people from a mortality standpoint because you're just removing the rust from the pipes. So getting the pipes getting getting the blood flow better, get in the get in the pipes with the rust removed and then the inflammation and oxidative stress.

These are two of the biggest things that drive negative outcomes for everyone's health on a daily basis. And so there's a couple of different ways you can manage those training, diet and environment, staying away from kind of pollution and microplastics and, and keeping your environment healthy are great. There's very few tools in our toolkit aside from photobiomodulation that help you impact oxidative stress measurably and substantially as soon as you use it.

So reducing oxidative stress is a, is a really big one and reducing inflammation because of that is a very big one. And we can kind of go into how those work and, and what triggers that from a, a stimulation standpoint. But it's the that's, I would say that's the three biggest things that are mechanisms for helping to solve different pathologies and and just get users healthier. Totally. And from like a study standpoint, what, what's the like, what studies have been

done on photobiomodulation? How are those studies typically conducted? What are they measuring? Like just kind of give us some some stats on what the the literature shows. Absolutely. So it's a great question. It's, it's not a short one to answer. Our, our team contribute to an international group that bring together and manage a database on all of the different studies on photobiomodulation. There's over 7000 already. And so they're on a huge number

of topics. The, the impacts from these. So the most common ones are things like from an inflammation standpoint, we have different cytokine loads, we have muscle inflammatory markers like C reactive proteins and creatine kinase. There are some more broad based inflammatory markers that, that we have. We have full kind of write ups on this that I'll I'll send over to you so you can kind of link back to.

It's quite a lot. And our, our team gets a little angry if I start going on the biochemistry too heavily. But there's Long story short, there's a huge and heavy amount

of data on the mechanisms underpinning inflammation when you're looking at nitric oxide. So I mentioned nitric oxide as a, as a, as a piece that we also interact with. How the nitric oxide signaling works is this happens both inside the cell and in, in the bloodstream. In the bloodstream is a lot higher volume just because there's more hemoglobin in your body than there is cytochrome C oxidase. So I'll start with the

hemoglobin first. But when you're triggering hemoglobin, it's primarily done through the eight O 8 nanometer wavelength in the near infrared range. It's it's invisible to our eyes. But when you start treating the, when you start treating the hemoglobin, hemoglobin has four binding sites for that are competitive for oxygen and nitric oxide. This just reduces the affinity of nitric oxide to bind to those sites.

So what happens is there's so much hemoglobin throughout your body that and, and so much blood throughout your body that whenever this, whenever you're triggering it with this eight O 8 nanometer light, you dump that nitric oxide And there's, there's two big outcomes from that. One is that hemoglobin now has more space to bind on oxygen, so it's going to deliver oxygen more effectively.

And the second is when you dump out that nitric oxide, you're, you're expanding or dilating those capillaries and, and blood vessels and delivering blood more effectively. And so that when you combine those two, there's just a synergistic effect for being able to deliver energy and, and oxygen more effectively into regions of the body with the oxidative stress. That's the other piece of the nitric oxide when, when you're triggering.

So when we trigger hemoglobin, there's four binding sites. There's, there's a, an enzyme in the mitochondria called cytochrome C oxidase, which also binds nitric oxide, but it's,

it's a bottleneck for energy production in the cell. And so energy production in the cell we measure through ATP, adenosine triphosphate and the production of adenosine triphosphate increases to double when you remove this, this

bottleneck. So when we can treat that cytochrome C oxidase there, there's a lot less of those because there's kind of, you know, a, a, you know, this is in the, the, essentially the, the phospholipid bilayer of the, the mitochondria, which is more or less the cell wall of the, the mitochondria between the kind of internal mitochondria and then the, the external cell, which then has its own kind of cell wall around it. But it triggers a lot of

signaling within the cell. And so this is called mitochondria or retrograde signaling, essentially the signaling between the mitochondria and the nucleus of your cell. This is the area where we measure oxidative stress. And there's a, there's a couple of ways we try to capture this with metaphors because it's a, it's a bit of a biochemistry when to go down. But what our head of research has come up with, because we had a had a really fun trip to, to go talk to some researchers at,

at Texas Tech recently. And so being in Texas, we try to get it back into a football metaphor. And essentially when you're able to allow that cytochrome C oxidase to move faster in its role in the, in the mitochondria, it's like a, an offense running more plays. In the end, you're going to end up with more yards and more

touchdowns. But there's a, there's a very short term spike in oxidative stress or reactive oxygen species and your body actually learns very similar to, to kind of exercise how to modulate those more effectively downstream. So what happens is it flattens those out and goes down below the oxidative stress level that it had originally. And so we run more plays, we get more yards, we get more touchdowns, but there are more

drops passes as well. And so those, those reactive oxygen species are, are kind of the drop passes between the the mitochondria and the the nucleus from a signaling standpoint. But again, there's this, it's a very short term increase in those and then then going back down below that oxidative stress threshold. Gotcha. And all this is happening in the presence of light therapy.

What what would be? Is there any way to determine or distinguish the difference between how much of this is happening by default when people are exposed to natural sunlight and, you know, are in tune with their circadian rhythms versus that of acute light therapy using a device? So the, the main difference is that if you're so there is a big impact. So I and I, I do this myself daily, you know, especially with the kids that go outside and do breathing in the sunlight, it really helps.

And, and there's a, a big impact for things like hormonal kind of downstream adaptations and etcetera. The difference with what we're doing from a, a light therapy standpoint is that you can control this and optimize it. What you get from sunlight, as an example, is a, a, a heavy enough band of UVA and UVB to not be super healthy for you. So you don't want to stay out in the sunshine for for hours and

hours every day. There's actually reasonable amounts as you can do. And, and I think, you know, those are probably even most of the ones that are advised broadly are probably even relatively conservative. What we find with the infrared and, and deep red targeted pieces of this is that the, these are a protective against

damage from UV. So when you can, when you can specifically choose the wavelengths and the power levels and the duty cycle and the frequency and the amplitude. Like when you choose all these characteristics and you and you kind of base this on outcomes that you're, you're targeting relative to the Physiology. What, what kind of adaptations are we trying to trigger? Where are these photo acceptors

that are going to drive that? And then how do we and most effectively, and this is, this is what we do from our, our science side is we, we build mathematical models to most effectively deliver photons through tissue to the correct photo acceptors. And what that does is essentially just makes your own personal kind of personalized optimized sun for you. And again, that also protects

against damage from UVA and UVB. So those, when you're seeing UVA and UBUVB, they, they can actually damage DNA and, and there's a number of different kind of downstream negative impacts from that, but a lot of those are mediated through oxidative stress. So if you're treating with photobiomodulation before or after you go out to go do your, your, your son, essentially you get the, the best of both

worlds. So that's a a that's a bit of a long answer, that long answer to A to to an honest and and reasonable question. What's the I'm just kind of rapid fire here. What's the difference between the infrared and the deep red? Like from a wavelength standpoint, Like how do those differ? So essentially the, the infrared penetrates more effectively. And so when we we've built our first device, the move plus the two most researched wavelengths in the world relative to the

forest plots. So the, the short answer is red

is for more superficial tissue and infrared is for, for deeper tissue. The longer answer is we selected these two because they had the most, the most substantial body of work from medical research standpoint. With our next devices, there's a couple of new laser wavelengths that we'll be adding in for penetration further into the

body. So things like the brain, female reproductive tissue in the gut require additional levels of modeling and and planning and design work to make sure that we're delivering the correct and optimal level of of photons to the photo acceptors in those areas as well. And we've found that this is this there's, there's two more wavelengths we're adding in to be able to do that. And so the longer you make these wavelengths, the more that in

general that they penetrate. And so we're adding in for our next ones, the 940 and 1064. The first device really is, is primarily for joint tissue, soft tissue and superficial tissue. So kind of your joints, your, your muscles and then you know, skin and and wound healing type recovery and those the, the shorter the wavelengths. So like our our first device with the the 660 and the eight O 8, those are shorter and penetrate less into the gut as an example.

So hopefully that gives a a bit of a framework for it. And I, I believe the one I've got is the move Plus. So that one's using the deep red, right? That's right. It's deep red, deep red LED with a primary optic and then a laser. We use lasers called vertical cavity surface emission lasers

for the infrared. And so it's that combination of of really how to how to dose as effectively at every level versus kind of like most other devices are either overdosing with superficial tissue or underdosing the internal tissue. I got you, I got you. So let's just kind of dive into some use case scenarios here. So with the move plus, you know, you can strap it to any specific body part or region that is, you know, ailing what what would be the workflow for stuff like

that. So for instance, I've got an employee that's got like a shoulder issue right now from from lifting. He would strap that to his shoulder. And then what would his dosing regimen look like? So on his shoulder, it's going to be 15 minutes a day. You can do this 15 minutes twice a day and it'll be roughly a 20% increase in the, the

improvements. But we found that when people try to start doing it twice a day, they have a harder time habit stacking it. So we, we just, it's much more important to have your, you know, 15 minutes a day versus the, the double version. So 15 minutes a day, find a, a habit that's not going to interfere with kind of your, your activities at the time. It's wearable.

So you can strap that on and you, you have essentially with the device, you have one module in the armpit and then two more that are on either side of the, the front and back and target through to that, that internal synovial fluid in that capsule. That, that really is where we see the, the increase in inflammation present and where we see the best results when people can actually treat it. So it's it's really targeting it from multiple areas to get the the best coverage of that

synovial fluid. And how long would he go about that? 15 minutes or once a day. 15

minutes once a day. That's right. And then again, if he's got time, if you can get the second one in, great. But make sure you have the first one stacked with something that you do every day. And I, I think I mentioned earlier, but we, we did some tests with, you know, early beta users for this. And many people have aspirational habits. So they'll say like, Hey, let me stack this with my, my

meditation. It's like, OK, how many times you meditate, meditated in the last two weeks once, OK, no, do it with your, do it with your Netflix because that's what you're doing every day. So make sure that whatever you're applying it to from a habit standpoint is a pragmatic historical habit that you're going to be able to to continue on with every day. And how? How long would he need to consecutively do that with before seeing noticeable benefits?

So the inflammation will start reducing within 24 hours. And so it really depends on from a pain standpoint, what type of injury it is when you have reduced inflammation in the area, the healing factors and the growth factors that come to that area and the recovery time start cutting down. So you, you get more growth factors and you start healing that that wound or, or injury faster. The, the degree of that depends on the degree of the, the injury

in the 1st place. So, you know, if it's a slap tear, it's one thing, it's a complete shoulder rebuild, they'll have another level from a, a recovery standpoint. But the main thing is started, you know, as soon as you started, started today that that inflammation level is going to come down almost immediately and you're going to see that increased speed of healing and, and ideally also reduced

discomfort. One thing that we do try to do with everyone is set a reasonable expectation relative to the pain and discomfort intervention levels they can expect when the pain is driven by inflammation. You're going to see a night and day difference almost immediately when it's not driven by, when there's a mechanistic kind of underpinning, a mechanical underpinning for this. And we see this a lot with hips as well. Then it takes longer.

There's, there's just going to be something we, we, you know that the light isn't going to fix. Like if you've got bone on bone, you're not going to see that fixed overnight. What you will see is that you can start regrowing cartilage in areas where you've, where you've been thin on cartilage because of inflammation. When you remove the inflammation from that area. But again, that's, that's a weeks to months scale process. Cartilage is just a slower a slower tissue to grow.

For me, for instance, I don't have any specific acute injuries. How would I like if you weren't in my shoes? How would you proactively work it into my daily routine? What would I benefit most from and just stacking it into my daily daily habits? It's a great question. Personally, treat your lower gut and treat your neck. That's that proximal priority therapy almost just makes you superhuman from a, a, an immune response standpoint and you just feel great from it.

We also find that there's a really, and, and we're doing some, we have been doing some, there's, there's been a bit of a, a shift in the environment around grants these days, but we, we've been putting in Alzheimer's and dementia grants with the NIH because we're seeing really powerful impacts when you can reduce, when you can increase kind of blood delivery, when you can decrease inflammation, when you can decrease oxidative stress in the brain.

The risk and the outcomes that you see for neurological disease are really powerfully impacted. And we're seeing that not just with the disease, but also with neurological behavioral pathologies. And so that's depression, anxiety, ADHD, even fibromyalgia, where we, we're seeing really powerful studies starting into this. It's still early days. The studies are still, they're human, but they're, they're still on the small side of

things. But we're anticipating that this is going to be a really powerful treatment long term to be able to help people avoid things like, you know, avoid or push back the outcomes of cognitive decline around Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's and and a number of different types of dementia as well. So in in that case, just simply wearing the device on a daily basis, that compounded over a lifetime, that's where the benefits going to come.

That's right, that's right. And we're you know, you hear this, you hear this 1% better every day. And this is really like the two powerful ways you can do that. One is that that blood and lower gut treatment. And two is the brain. Your your brain is just such a high leverage point of your experience as a human that making that investment and commitment into yourself to have healthier brain tissue longer term, The sooner you can start

that the better. And that'll be with the the next device that is penetrating deeper that you would wear I'm assuming on your on your skull. You you can use the current device, the eight O 8. The the 660 doesn't really penetrate through to this, the eight O 8 does and it and it actually has a very, very meaningful and substantial

impact. The next device will be optimal. So that's kind of the trajectory was has you know what we're OK right now we want to have something where we're really providing optimal outcomes and optimal dosing at all levels of tissue. And that's our our next product will be be releasing in in for the gut and for the brain in in May. Nice, nice.

So for me, if I just make it a habit of wearing the device on my neck for 15 minutes and lower abdomen region 15 minutes every day, I'm I'm putting the stack of chips in my favorite right? 100% I I so I, I think I started on this earlier, but I've got two kids, 5 and 9, two boys and they drag in all kind of colds from school all the time. And I haven't been sick in months, like maybe a year now. Like I just and I didn't notice

this until halfway through. And again, it's, it's in of 1 grain of salt it, but it's, it's just an exciting thing to see as a, you know, as a technologist that we're, we're actually able to make these type of differences. But I think that what you would see earlier out of that is you'd just feel really good on a daily basis. You, you produce more serotonin and dopamine in your gut than you do in your brain. And there's a big impact on that

from treating with lasers. So again, the, the current device makes a difference and you can feel it within about two weeks. Like it, it, it takes a little while for that to ramp up. And, and again with a lot of these, one of the things been so exciting about this from a research standpoint is in many cases like like this one, the

gut is so multivariate that we know the dosing and we know the outcomes. People get sick less they their affect is better, all of this. But in many cases we're still kind of working to delineate or parse what's happening and understand better on on between the ABC and the XYZ. What like what, what is this jumble of letters in between that's actually mediating this effect? And so we'll be able to even dial it in further over the coming years as we as we get more, more back from our

research partners on this. Yeah, no, it's exciting stuff. And there's, there's not really any, you know, adverse effects or outcomes that come from it, right. Because I mean with, with the infrared, the deep red, like there's no overdose, so to speak. No, the overdose is just, you go back to 0. Like you just don't like, if you ever overdose, you can leave it on for two hours, but you're going to go back to like the, the baseline there. There's no, there's no negative

impact for this. This is, it's one of the reasons why we also, we, we actually had a decision at the beginning of the, the design process for using Class 2 or Class 1 lasers. And we went and did testing on both of those. And not only do we find better outcomes from a safety and risk standpoint, obviously the, the lower power LED and lower power lasers are going to be less dangerous and, and lower risk.

We also found better outcomes. And so it's really nice to be able to see that in, in kind of on a daily basis. Again, this is, you know, having having gone through, I think 3435 cycles of, you know, we have, we have, we've built really complex mathematical models as to how these photons distribute through tissue and we base our designs on that. And then we go back and test this in reality and say, all right, here's what model says, here's what we're seeing.

How do we close that gap? And after I again, I think it's 30 or 453435 cycles of that, we're closer on, on that than anyone in the world. So the dosing is as good as it gets and we will have, we will introduce sensors into this eventually. That's something we'll be doing next year because again, we want to be able to demonstrate to people what objective changes we're making in their Physiology. And there's some really cool technology coming down the, down the pipe on this one.

But yeah, that's, that's maybe a teaser for the, for the next chat because it's, it's still early days and we're, we're still kind of working on how to roll that out relative to the, the, the, the real time changes in dosing that we can make from a therapeutic standpoint. Totally. I've seen a lot of people in the biohacking space that are using these red lights to hopefully improve hormonal health and function testosterone production. Are there is there any truth to them?

I mean these people putting red lights on their their gonads or testicles token to increase natural testosterone levels, is that effective? It is I think one of the things that we see there is that you see you see small but real uptick in in testosterone. What's also interesting for it though, is from a sexual dysfunction standpoint, nitric oxide is a really powerful molecule in the body for that.

And you see much better kind of outcomes relative to sexual impact, kind of from a sexual dysfunction standpoint relative to, to testosterone. So I think it's testosterone protocols. We haven't personally gone in to test for them yet, but we, we do kind of keep a track of the

literature in that and it does, it does move the needle. It's just not as substantial as it is from a a, you know, sexual like that, that range of impact on the sexual impairment to sexual function spectrum is really more powerful than the the testosterone side. Got you. I should say 11 follow up for this is that we also, and I didn't know this our, our, you know, obviously I'm male. Our, our research team skews male, our engineering team skews male. And I, I think this is not an

uncommon thing. We didn't know much about this from a, a, a hormone standpoint coming into this space, but with our users asking a lot of questions and wanting to know more about this, we found that female hypothyroidism around paramenopause and menopause is really, really common. And one of the things that we can do is when you pair photobiomodulation with vitamin D3 and selenium, there's a synergistic outcome for impacting hypothyroidism.

And so there's great my, my business partner, one of the reasons we actually started digging into it as well as my business partner has Hashimoto's. And it's a very kind of similar thing to the this kind of paramenopausal hypothyroid shift from a hormone standpoint. And we're seeing really powerful impacts for, for treating that. And so both, both from our users, but also from the the medical literature in the space. Interesting.

Yeah, Now it makes total sense. And from like a a nitric oxide standpoint that piques my interest because that's what I'm trying to optimize for when I'm training for bodybuilding purposes. Is there is there like a specific time? Like obviously doing it consistently and eventually is the most important thing, but if

I'm trying to optimize from performance standpoint, is there an ideal time to where the device pre workout, post workout? Does that matter at all? So there's different outcomes for that at least from a research standpoint if you're using it pre workout, what we see is a an increase in aerobic capacity.

So, and this is typically around cyclical modalities from a, a training standpoint like rowing, cycling, things like this that people just are able to go further and faster from a anaerobic exercise modality post workout. What we find is if you're doing very high intensity workouts, the what you, what you triggers a lot of muscle damage and there's muscle inflammatory markers where you know creating kinase and C reactive proteins are, are two good examples.

These don't add anything to, to your strength gains to your hypertrophy. They slow you down from coming back from intense workouts to do another intense workout. And so it slows down your progress essentially. And those respectively we reduced by 60% and 80% in a 24 hour period. So really powerful impacts on muscle inflammatory markers. And I would, I would in that sitting, I would just put around my neck, right? Like just simply optimizing blood flow through my neck.

For, for the aerobic piece, yes, or you can also do your larger muscle groups. And so for me, if I like when I, so I'm still training CrossFit and there's occasionally really heavy days for, you know, for me it's, it's the what I've seen the best result for kind of the delayed onset muscle soreness and, and muscle recovery is I know I'm going to be sore when it's a middle weight, but it's heavy volume.

So if I'm doing, you know, 200 front rack lunges, but not at a heavyweight, but just 200 of them, I am going to be sore tomorrow. And I know that. And so I'll, I'll bring the device with me if I see that on the programming where it's, it's kind of a high volume really kind of, yeah. Like muscle endurance slash hypertrophy, trite type training. High volume legs is the worst man I get so much more.

It's so systemically impactful. You just like your central nervous system, just mine at least just freaks out and it's like, oh man, don't, don't do that again. But yeah, if you treat the specific muscles for that, so treat the, the leg muscles on that. So, yeah. And I did it just yesterday too. Oh my goodness. I, I forgot my device though at the house. My, my wife was sick. So she was using it for kind of the immune impacts. And yeah, I didn't. I looked in my bag after

training yesterday and I was. Like oh man, what about your kids? You said 5 and 9 wasn't. That's right, yes. Do you have them wear it for any purposes? I, I do when they, when I can get it on them, we, we do kind of little like documentary learning things in the evening. And so I try to do that every

day with them for immunity. Now that we've kind of immune health, now that we've noticed this, this really big difference, it's harder because there's just so many moving parts and, and like they're harder to track down and get onto a pattern, but they also, if they fall down and scrape their leg or something like this, the wound healing. And there's a ton of literature on this.

This is one of the first things that was researched around it, particularly back in the 80s when when NASA was starting to research photobiomodulation. Astronauts don't heal very effectively. So you could get a scratch and then like months later still have that. If you're in space, you just don't your, your recovery and, and wound healing just slows down. And there's a number of factors for it. And they're still kind of working on, on those.

But one of the things that they have found is that photobiomodulation fixes that. And so the kids like that as well that it's kind of like their Wolverine thing if they fall down and scrape their knees or something like this and they're good like like not not quite overnight, but almost for, for the scratches when they can put this on there. Interesting, I guess astronauts probably aren't doing a whole lot of high volume legs either then.

It's so bad for you though. They're they're, you know, space brain is the kind of informal term for it. But you're seeing like if you took like TBI, kind of like NFL or, or something like this type TBI, boxing, MMA and then combined it with Alzheimer's. It's like a combination of the worst kind of symptoms of both of those.

And it's really nasty. People come back with really, really heavy impacts from it. And, and it's, it's really nice to be able to be researching this because we, we have started working with some, some different astronauts in the space. And, and, you know, we same thing with the NFL and, and, you know, MMA, we're working with the UFC guys and, and just want to make it make an impact, make

a positive impact where we can. Yeah. I don't know 100% man, that's that's very admirable. What what's your long term picture with the business? Do you feel like you'll stick with this one and build into this legacy brand that you just, you know, pass on to your kids at some point or what? Where do you think things are going to go when you look into the future? That's my hope. I, I think you know, as long as we're making a difference for people, you know, we didn't

build this business to exit. We, we built it to, to be impactful. And as long as we're getting better at that and we are our, our devices are getting better. Our, our interactions with the users are getting better, our systems on how we kind of check those things and, and put a feedback loop in place. All of that's getting so much more impactful. And it's, it's just, it gives you more like, it gives me more optimism for the future.

And I, I tend to lean on the optimistic side of things in general. I think you have to as a, as an entrepreneur, but yeah, for me, this is a, this is, this is a lifelong 1 where we can, we can keep getting better and better at delivering health outcomes and, and better, better

lifestyles for people. The, the, you know, the testimonials that we get in from our older users on a daily basis of, you know, my wife couldn't sleep for 10 years because of sleep all the way through the night from, you know, from chronic pain. Now she's sleeping through the night. She couldn't walk up the stairs. She was having to use these little scooters at the grocery store. That's, that's why we're here, you know, and we're, we're achieving it.

So it's, you know, as long as we're achieving that, I'm, I'm going to be here doing it. That's awesome, ma'am. When you when you look back at your prior business ventures and you mentioned earlier that you had reached a capacity with each of them due to your own limitations and then you exited. What have you learned as a businessman now to this point that you feel confident will keep you from hitting that threshold, that limiting factor with this business?

Or if that's not the case, like how are you going to set yourself up for success so that doesn't happen this go round? I think you have to approach it from a lifelong learning standpoint. The, the, again, the hubris of youth is not just ignorance, it's also it's ignorance and the, the ignorance of the ignorance.

So you don't know how ignorant you are when you're young and when you, when you find out how ignorant you are through a few different cycles of these type of things, you know that there's, regardless of how well things go from an outcome standpoint, there's something that you're missing. There's something that you could be doing better. And it's the, it's the ignorance of ignorance that we should be targeting to eradicate. And you can't. Like no one is no one's omniscient.

But if you open yourself up to broader networks of people who you respect and give them and, and lose the ego enough to give them an opportunity to come in and, and talk to you about things like that. We, we as a business, this was one of the reasons why we, we kind of refer to ourselves as a non ego shop. Like it doesn't matter whose idea it is. Like the janitor can challenge our, our, you know, atomic physicist PHDCTO on things, if

he feels it is not going right. And we just, you have to leave the ego out and, and be able to take on other people's input for it, because you're, you're never going to have that full 100° perspective. And and, you know, just leave open some level of respect for your, your, your colleagues and, and, you know, people external to you to be able to, to raise things that can be unknown unknowns, if that makes sense. Yeah 100% man, ego is the enemy for sure.

Yes, yes, and it's, but again, when you're young, it's, it's hard to, to know that without having seen a couple of cycles. And, and you know, once you do see the cycles, you know, regardless of, of how talented whoever is and whatever they're doing, world class people at everything, everyone's got gaps.

And so trying to, you know, trying to close those and, and be honest with yourself and leaving the ego at the door hopefully will help, you know, we don't know, but hopefully will help improve outcomes and, and continue to let let us grow and learn and expand as people. Totally, man. I got one final question for you, brother. How do you how do you structure your day?

Like I'm always curious, talk to other businessmen, other entrepreneurs, other athletes to see how they, how they allocate their time because we all have the same amount of time. How you prioritize it is going to be what you're defining factor is how you have it stack, how you build these routines into place. Like how do you structure your day to be the most productive version of yourself? For me, the mornings of the the productive time I I I'm about

5:00. I've, I've typically got training at about 6 ice barrel, some kind of coffee and, and I,

I, I'm supposed to be my, my nutritionist has said, hey, get back on the like non fasting piece, but I really like not eating in the morning. I feel more alert and awake. And so I, I kind of skid by that and put a little bit and then go straight into probably 6 hours of, of deep work, typically from calls and things like this. But most of the deep work structured around pomodoros, which I found really useful.

There's a number of different tools that I kind of stack in a, I've, I've kind of lifelong ADHD. So there's a, you know, there's different apps and, and like Endo is great from a sound standpoint. Pomodoros are great for my, a managing to a, a set time frame. We use a number of different tools for kind of external brain like Notion that that really helped me kind of manage different things that are, are gaps or or weak points for me from a, a processing and focus standpoint.

And then I would say at some point you have to get in a yoga nidra to, to kind of reset in the afternoon. There's something really powerful about being able to not necessarily have a nap, but being able to reset your brain and almost a nap style like re energizing and yeah, then afternoon training of some sort, typically lifting in the afternoon and more work through to I, I like cooking.

So I, I cook and, and I cook Sundays and then during the week for dinner while my wife does kind of breakfast and and lunch for the kids. So I think it's that's hopefully a, you know, a reasonable, a reasonable framework. Yeah. How do you disconnect when you get home? Spend time with the kids. That's a great question. Typically I try to find something that they like and get into it with them and I just like learning stuff and they've always got something new on

their mind. And so they want to sit and talk or do something new. The little one, I played quarterback and the little one wants to play quarterback. So that's a, it's a great alignment. He wants to go learn how to throw and do things like this.

But finding kind of bridges or, or overlaps relative to what their interests are with what my experience and, and where I can add value for them has been, I think kind of how I've approached it. It's, it's I also I, I should have mentioned maybe earlier, I, my phone is off for any incoming calls. I haven't had, I haven't received an incoming call in years. I, yeah, I, I, it's always on kind of focus mode. So I don't like, I, I answer messages a bunch in my, in my

Pomodoro sprints. But then if it's not during that time, it's I'm, I'm really not like kind of on, I'm not on social media. So again, a lot of those things are just triggers for me for, for focus related issues that are kind of tough around ADHD. And so I've just had to kind of modulate as as it works as you can do around that, if that makes sense. No, tell them, man, I love it. I love it. I got a son, another son on the

way too. So like I'm trying to congratulations, my disconnect time when I get off work for the day and it's it's challenging, but it it makes you realize

what's important in life for sure. A. 100% yeah. And, and we also with the kids, we do the, so our first training in the morning is with the kids. We have them on a, a Tabata protocol. You can't when you're young really out on a bunch of muscle, like they don't have any hormones for that. But with kind of the neurological and balance and kind of explosiveness and things like this, they're getting great. And so that's, that's really been working well. And, and we're going to kind of

keep steering into that. They also like, and, and probably 3 or 4 * a week we do, you might find the same thing. They like anything that we kind of get into and get excited about. So, you know, sauna and ice barrel, They, they, they jump into and they're like, who can stay in the longest and this type of thing. So I got two boys. They're, they're just, you know,

naturally competitive. Like if you put like anything on the table, they're, they're like, they're going to compete about it. Like, Oh well, my hat is taller or like anything they can compete about that. It's going to be competition. Yeah. I love it man, I love it. Well, awesome for us. I really appreciate the time man. I'm glad you kind of shed some light on biomodulation lights,

that makes sense. Super excited about the device I got when we start playing around with him and let my my workout partner use it for his shoulder and see if that makes a difference for him. Where do people go to find out

more and dig deeper, brother? Come check us out at kineon dot IO, KINEON dot IO or we're also on social media as Kineon KINEON under score labs, because we kind of feel like we're, we are a lab. We're in the real world testing and, and trying to trying to use technology to improve people's lives. And that's, that's kind of just a real world lab. So that's where you can find us. Yeah, I, I really appreciate the time today. This was a great, great discussion.

Thank you so much for for the awesome questions and and awesome interaction. Hey, my pleasure man. We'll keep the conversation going. All right. See you, brother. All right.