Rachel Gregory and Kim Howerton on everything to do with Metabolic Flexibility!

Well, hello ladies and gents Roberts eggs, keto Savage.com. And I'm coming back at you with another podcast episode. This one is a little interesting. We have a little round table discussion going on here, so I've had Kim Howerton on the podcast. We talked about metabolic flexibility, I've been on Rachel. Rachel Gregory's podcast she's

been on mine. We've talked about medibot flexibility Kim had the wondrous idea of getting us all together for a Roundtable discussion so we can get varying opinions from both ends of the spectrum and just dive into to all that is metabolic flexibility. So we talked about it at depth from at length in depth from a physiological standpoint and from a psychological standpoint, hopefully we cleared up any confusion. You may have on the subject, I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation.

I've got utmost respect for both Kim and Rachel. It's always a pleasure to sit down and talk with them. Hope you all enjoy the conversation as much as I did. So, without further Ado is sit back, relax, learn something and enjoy the podcast with Kim and Rachel, And we're live. Kim and Rachel. How are you? Good. Here we go. The lag effect has already begun its hard. We're doing three people remote podcast, but we're going to make it work.

Yeah, we'll do our best so so Kim it was your idea to have us all have this Roundtable discussion so I'd love for you to just kind of introduce the concept as to what this conversation will likely entail. Sure. So you know, I love Rachel and Robert and so I wanted to bring them into this conversation because I thought it'd be an interesting conversation to have like we are all three people that work with different populations, in the sort of

health and food space. And very either fully keto or key or Json or whatever you want to call it. And and we all have, you know, our opinions based on who we see who we work with. And our own personal experiences and the three of us have differences. I would say, we agree much more than we disagree, but specifically in the area of metabolic flexibility.

I was thinking who better than met flex and chill right to bring into the conversation because, you know, our filters are on when we have these conversations a lot, but then we actually talk to each other. Differing opinions, but people we were like respect. And we're like, oh, that makes sense too. And so, I thought each of our audiences would probably benefit from hearing from a very well-thought-out perspective or getting the questions.

Like, I don't know if you guys have this experience, I will listen to somebody else on a podcast. I'll be like ask this question you know and nobody asks it and so I thought this might be an opportunity. I love it. I love it. Yeah same just just To clarify here from your bit of listening, it's Robert Sykes. Rachel Gregory Kim Howerton. That's the three people talking right now and everybody should know each of us but I could, we do like a quick little intro, I

guess for anybody. That is not aware because this is going to be published on all three of our platforms here. Yeah, go for it right away. Okay. My name is Rachel Gregory I am the founder of met Flex life, my kind of, I've been kind of in the keto low-carb space since 2014 2014. I can't even remember what year it is anymore and I got into the space.

I did the first study looking at the effects of a Carpio drank diet in CrossFit athletes for my Master's Degree in exercise, physiology nutrition and that's good. What kind of propelled me into this lifestyle, you know, got really interested in Quito started. Working with clients, obviously adopted the lifestyle from myself for a long time. Tried out many, many different things. Went down many different rabbit

holes. As I feel like we all do and kind of got to this place, probably two years ago where I'm at. What just wasn't working for me. Me more, in terms of I developed this very kind of negative, negative connotation, but behind carbs, I had a really bad fear of incorporating carbs into my lifestyle. And I knew that it was something that I needed to kind of address and so I kind of looked into this idea of metabolic flexibility and realizing that you can, you know?

Benefit from both sides of things and you might not necessarily need to be on the extreme sides of each Spectrum to get the benefits. Especially if you're someone in my opinion he's not suffering from, you know, any type of metabolic disease are you don't have, you know, severe psychological issue with carbohydrates. So that's kind of my background in terms of metabolic flexibility. Which I'm sure we're going to talk about and yeah, I don't want to talk too much.

I love it. What you got? Kim. Well so I'm Kim Howerton and I'm a keto coach. I still primarily am working within the key to space and I am somebody who went keto over over four years ago to deal with my own personal metabolic dysregulation, i-i've been a life coach before then. So, I've been a coach for a very, very long time. But I've been kind of in the more relationship, interpersonal space and then I went Quito and finally, like this.

Piece of the puzzle of my life kind of fell into place for me. And from then forward, I was like, oh I actually have to do my work here in this space around metabolic health. Because ultimately, it's very, I mean, they're both important, it's very rewarding to save a marriage. It feels better to give somebody the tools. I mean to save their life and very few marriages survive death, right? So it's important to To me to really be part of the change that we need in our world to

have people healthy. And so that's where I put my attention and my focus now. And I continue to myself, be a keto, we're on a low-carb ER but I'm also in this time period especially since we've been shelter in place a bit more doing. More experiments seeing what's going on using a CGM, you know and really Looking at my boundaries personally and also, it's interesting being currently an insulin sensitive person in the keto space. And what does that mean? And what does that look like?

And we can get into that a bit more but you know my transition had gone from being insulin resistant and now I'm insulin sensitive. But I'm you know, not a skinny insulin sensitive person. I'm sort of a slightly fluffy insolent. Has that a person so like well you know, what does that mean in the space? And what does that mean in in my health? Ernie. And and what, you know what, kind of people I tend to work with and what impact that has on

them. Nice. Nice. As far as I'm concerned, I'm Robert Sykes keto Savage and I've been keto since 2000 14 or 15? I can't remember now. But I've been natural bodybuilding that whole time.

I've been bodybuilding now for about 13 years, I want to say half of it was prior to Quito, then I developed a bunch of eating disorders and then went to Quito to try and correct course with those and This kind of made that my new Norm experience, a lot of performance benefit from it and have pretty much committed myself to optimizing a strict ketogenic approach for natural bodybuilding specifically but also just performance in general and I built a brand podcast and

a business around that concept. So it'll be interesting for the conversation today because I am definitely kind of pegged as the strict keto guy and and Rachel is not the strict keto gal. So are you going to pack the moderator here? Or Kim, or how is this whole trifecta work? I am indeed the younger child in my family so I like everyone to get along and so, you know that that might be my role. I think, as long as we're more civil than the presidential debates were kind of come out ahead.

I think, I think we could make a fabulous. I don't know if you can have three people like as a as a, what it's been a while since they've done the three rules of government but we can do that. Yeah, there you go. There you go. So how do you all want to structure this? We want to just kind of, I think defining how we would Define. Metabolic flexibility would be advantageous for the audience, the listeners. Because metabolic flexibility has definitely become a buzzword

as of late. It seems, so just kind of drawing some clarity as to what that means to us would be advantageous. Sure. Yeah. Do you want me to kind of give my like, what, how? I usually describe it? I would love that. Rachel. Okay, so really just kind of to describe it and then its

simplest way. It's metabolic flexibility of me is really just being able to go back and forth between you know I'm sorry the two main fuel sources that we have for energy, right carbohydrates and fats and Really kind of like in our modern day right in especially in America where there's a lot of us. And a lot of people who are, you know, subject to these, you know, diseases that are going rampant, right? Type 2 diabetes, obesity, all of

that. And so a lot of that is pretty much stemming from just like the over consumption of food and processed food and just having that, you know, every day like in our site, every Like we have grocery stores and Delivery Dudes and all that is it called Delivery Dudes or no Jordache whatever. Yeah, where you can just have everything at your fingertips, right. Which is not how like we evolved as humans, right?

So the concept of metabolic effects flexibility to me is just being able to move between fuel sources when it's necessary. So you know, if you are sitting at your desk during the day and you're just you know, sedentary or just working, you're focusing, you should be able to tap tap into your, you know, fat stores for fuel, right? You should be able to use fat as a fuel source where, you know, most of us can't most of, you know, modern day people, I guess

you could say. We can't, we can't do that, we get these hunger pains, we got these energy, fluctuations headaches, things like that, because we're so used to having carbohydrates is our main fuel source, and especially, like in America, that's what's, you know, touted like the standard American diet is high carb, so that's one side of it and then the other side, Side of it is, if you are, you know, you go on a keto, low carb diet for a long time.

You may start to become, you know, metabolically inflexible the other way where you, when you, you know, want to consume carbs, or when maybe it's necessary for you to consume carbs, you're not really able to use those carbs as effectively because you are again. You're not your metabolically inflexible, the other way. So Really my goal with metabolic flexibility and kind of getting the word out about it. Just trying to help people see that there is like, you can have

this in between. And like I said, there's to me the spectrum is and this is kind of how I explain it. Like, if you are, you know, overweight or obese and you're sedentary, right, then you're probably on the Spectrum on the one side, or let's say the left side of the spectrum, where maybe you don't need that many carbs, right?

And your body does not Well with that many carbs so that would be more of like okay, let's take a keto low-carb approach there, maybe you are insulin resistant, work will work through that, right? And then as you you know, move more towards the other side of the spectrum or if you already are on the other side of the spectrum where you are, maybe lean active, maybe you do a lot of high, intensity training,

things like that. You could probably do just fine with some carbs like in your lifestyle, right? So it really in my Opinion comes down to like, where you're starting, where you're at, what your metabolic metabolic health is like and then also what your psychological health is like,

right? So there's some people who absolutely can, you know, follow a low-carb ketogenic diet for forever and they enjoy it and they love it and they don't ever have any need or want to consume carbs, which is totally fine. But then, there's another side of the, another side of the spectrum where there's people who have gone, keto, low carb for a long time and this was this is personally, my

experience. All the people that I Tech tend to work with, like all the clients I work with, they went keto, they found great results, they got great results and then they kind of got to this place where they became carved phobic and any time they wanted to, you know, maybe have something that wasn't lower carb or even something, you know, like a cookie or a cupcake, or whatever at a wedding, I always use this example, they would feel like severe guilt behind that, right?

And they would, they want it would Be this big negative event and cause some down spirals for some things. So, my kind of take on that is, you know, we got to figure out where you're at, where you're coming from, what your goals are long-term. Like, do you feel like you can follow you do look car by yourself for the rest of your life and do you want to do that or do you want to incorporate carbs strategically for where you're at in your life for your goals? And can you balance that for

your lifestyle? So that's really kind of I'm going to stop. I'm going on here but that's really how I see metabolic flexibility is your your body's metabolic ability to use, both carbs and fats as a fuel source as different fuel sources at different times. But then also, I like to take it a step further and go towards like the psychological side of things.

Where okay, we're living in this modern world, where we have these things, you know, every single day we have events to go to and whatever they may be. And so that's other side of things that I feel like a lot of People don't necessarily take into account in terms of that, flexibility side of things. Okay, I'm done talking and then to add Kim. Sure. So, yeah, I totally agree in my. That metabolic flexibility is a concept.

Is the idea that you are somebody that could burn either carbs or, you know, glucose or or fats as your main fuel source. And I think the thing that Rachel did totally say but I want to really emphasize, is that our society? I would say, I kind of Just like we have the general population and then we've got what I call

sporty peeps, right? Like the people who work out a lot you know it's just part of their life like they don't actually everyday think I gotta start working out now like they actually do it and and the general population and I would say if we look at the general population, I would say, almost all of them are are not fat adapted. They are only carbon apted, right? They can They are. They have insulin resistance which means they have a big barrier to being able to burn

fat for fuel. And I find the barrier to becoming fat adapted. To be a much steeper climb from where we are. Currently, I don't think this has been true evolutionarily for, you know, I don't think this is true back in the day before there was a McDonald's on

every corner. But I think that currently, we're in a place where the the road to Fat up Adaptation for a lot of people is extremely important and much more challenging than what I would say is perhaps the road to becoming to balancing between like the first important step seems to be for 99% of the population to become fat adapted as a stage. One, totally agree.

Like if we're looking at it from like standard populations Viewpoint, I mean I'm in one percent complete agreement with the concept of metabolic flexibility. Like anybody that's a standard phone or standard American diet and hasn't been in the state of ketosis since birth. They would absolutely benefit from, you know, becoming fat adapted and then having that metabolic flexibility on their side because of the moment, they certainly are not metabolically

flexible. I think where we may differ is that, I'm not really convinced that if on the Reversed end of that Spectrum, you're going to have the metabolic It's ability if you're Quito and then not able to tap into carbs. For instance, I've been strictly do now for six years, but if I was to eat carbs, how's the bunch of rice or sushi? Or, you know, something of that nature.

I don't feel like I would have near the uphill battle to become to be able to tap into that for fuel as I as a standard American that, you know, follower would in the reverse of that using fat for fuel. So I'm not I'm not convinced that our body forgets how to use carbs as a fuel source.

There may be a little bit of discomfort Effort, you know, a Temptation phase in the first couple of days, but I feel like once you were to incorporate that your body would would recognize that as fuel and be able to type into it and uses energy pretty rapidly. So I'm not necessarily convinced that from a performance standpoint, you're going to become metabolically inflexible on the reverse standpoint.

So that's probably where we differ from a physiological standpoint from a psychological standpoint. I think would probably agreeing on everything. We just were attacking it from Two different perspectives. So I don't think people should become phobic at all and I don't want that cause them to spiral out of control that would obviously not be good or sustainable or enjoyable.

But I'm coming at it from the perspective of not letting carbs have such a, you know, impression on your life in the first place. So like if you're at a wedding and you want have a piece of cookie and you're going to feel guilty. If you have that cookie, you're suggesting that you eat the cookie and be okay with it. I'm suggesting that you now have to cook. You have such a hold on you in the first place. So just kind of a different different perspective over the

same desired outcome, I believe. Yeah, I like don't know when doc. This is one of the quick disclaimer for anybody listening. We're doing this on audio so we can't really see each other's mannerisms of someone's regular hand. We can't, we can't see that. So we're just kind of hoping that we get the flow right? Yeah. Yeah we should we could have overheard a video but it wouldn't have come out as clear. So and I didn't do my hair. So yeah we can't do video of yeah that was the main reason

right? But yeah, so I mean from a from a physical standpoint I'd love to to dive into that. I mean, is there much research and I'm probably not near as knowledgeable about the research that I shouldn't be. But is there any significant studies that are well-conducted to illustrate the your body forgets? How to use glucose for energy? After you've been keto? I mean there may be that slight adaptation period as I'm sure that would be just as you're going from Quito to carnivore.

There's a slight adaptation period from a digestive standpoint, from an Option standpoint. But long-term I wouldn't assume your body would forget how to use glucose as it does figure out how to use fat. If you've not been found adapting. Oh sorry Kim you can go. Okay. I was going to say that I I think Rachel's probably the right one to round out this question but I think you know this conversation would need to we definitely need to bring up the concept of adaptive glucose sparing.

You know, once you become fat adapted, you might note that You your body just doesn't seem to want to do the right thing, when you take in carbs, which can lead to really big blood. Glucose excursions. Essentially, your muscles are like no, we don't need you glucose, thanks, head out. And it, you know, kicks it back into your bloodstream.

And, and so, you know, the question I have though, is everything I've ever seen says, you know, whether they're about three days of eating a moderate carb diet, you are back to being able to deal with car. Herb super well. And you know to differentiate that that adaptive glucose pairing is in. No way pathological, it's physiological insulin resistance and very quickly overcome.

So I know there are studies that show this, this adaptive glucose fairing which is again, often called physiological insulin resistance. But like to Roberts question Beyond those sort of like oh yeah, let me get my insulin producing the right amount. You know, let me get this response curve back which seems To take two to three days, you know, beyond there are there additional benefits. Yeah. So I honestly don't think that we have like many studies like looking at this, right?

Like looking at someone who's been, you know, falling a low-carb diet, for a long time, fat adopted and then incorporating, you know, carpet, there are sometimes like I said, corpang carbohydrates, but then like the after, right? I think my biggest thing with that is just like when you it just looking, like you said, Kim, the blood sugar response to that, but then it's also like what? I guess, it's kind of thinking like, long-term like, What does the individual want to get out of it?

Like, that's where I come. Come like, that's what I'm looking at. Like, I'm not necessarily looking at all. The physiological stuff that's actually going out and kind of looking at more. So at the practical sense of like the person's lifestyle in the sense of, okay, do they want to, you know, feel comfortable incorporating carbs like on the weekend? Or maybe even just, you know, once or twice a month without having that guilt behind it and does their body, you know,

bounce back. Back effectively from that. So that's really kind of like we're like I'm looking at it from and I guess it you could say it's more. So the psychological side of things when it comes to the metabolic flexibility. Kind of Realm. Does that make any sense? It's like a mental flexibility. Yeah, over like because one of the things that, the questions that come up for me is like, okay, I like carbs, I can push

myself to my carb Max, right? Like, I can know that I Don't have blood sugar problems if I keep the carbs under X. So I'm going to push it to that Max. And and there might be emotional benefit there, right? Like, I can go out with my friends for lunch easier.

I don't have to deny myself when I think I have a craving you know, you have these sort of maybe to some people have benefits, some people not but you know, potential more expansion in that area on a, on a, in an emotional level but with a question that always comes up for me is but Is, it's this concept of like, getting away with it, like, I can get away with this many carbs, no big deal, but it's either actual benefit beyond that. It makes some people feel

happier. Yeah, definitely talk about the psychological aspect, but I love to let's just cover the physical first and then we'll move more into the mental / emotional because they're both very, very key. Totally important. Yeah, so, from a, from a physical standpoint, then what? What I don't know, I guess we can break this down, multiple different ways from a, from a insulin-resistant standpoint. I have noticed that people like Shaun Baker, for instance, he's been open about how his blood

glucose tends to rise. His Baseline blood glucoses off and north of 100, but he's obviously not eating any carbohydrates. So some people have pointed pointed to that as being a, you know, example of the insulin resistance from not having the carbs, but he's also eating a ton of protein, I think. The macronutrient ratio breakdown is incredibly relevant there.

I think the the amount of caloric Surplus or deficit is very relevant for instance when I'm in a building phase and I'm eating at a significant caloric, Surplus, more of which is protein, my blood glucose always tends to be a little bit higher, not in an unhealthy range, but always a little higher when I'm in a deficit and I'm at higher fat ratio that drops down to 60s or 70s milligrams per deciliter. So I think that is incredibly relevant and then also from a hormonal status and point.

I feel like one of the big Arguments for incorporating carbohydrates falls on the females who have been irregular with their cycle, they've noticed that they've missed their their period for several months to incorporate some carbs and they'll see that resurfaced and I love for you to talk to on that cause that's a bit more outside my wheelhouse than it is y'all. But for me, what I've what I've noticed is that is very much so related and correlated to

overall caloric. Can take if someone is that a significant deficit in calories and they incorporate carbs, that could elicit, a period response. But if they are at a healthy caloric intake on a maintenance or in Surplus, they're oftentimes able to maintain a regular cycle in the complete absence of carbohydrates. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I agree with kind of the caloric intake side of things where it might not necessarily there has been a few.

Like, I think I know of like one specific study that looked at leptin levels with incorporating carbohydrates but there really hasn't been you know, too many in the sense of like when you do you know incorporate carbohydrates you know in and what you're left, her response is because I know that's something that a lot of people tend to say like oh like your leptin levels are kind of out of whack. So Incorporate carbs and they'll kind of level out from my

research. I haven't seen, you know, actual too many studies on that but I think like you said Robert is like the clerk intake side of things. Like, if you are, someone who is suffering with, you know, not having a period or you've been in a calorie deficit for a while and some hormonal things are going on. You know, the first thing like absolutely increasing your calorie intake, should take care of a lot of those things whether that calorie intake does come from.

Carbs are fats, right? The only other, the only thing that I'm not the only thing, but one of the things I would say is that we do know from research and from from research that there is kind of a an inverse response to spike in insulin and cortisol. So when you do spike your insulin levels you can it kind of has the opposite effect on cortisol and cortisol. We know is our stress hormone. So there are some instances when you know that can help to mitigate some of the negative effects.

If you do. Have if you're constantly in a sympathetic state, right? If you're constantly in this fight or flight mode and your cortisol is chronically elevated having those spikes and Insulin could potentially bring that cortisol down specifically, you know, after a workout to get more into that recovery recovery mode and that more than that's parasympathetic State. And that's just from kind of like the Practical and I guess real world application side of

things. That's what I've seen for myself and And with a lot of the women clients that I work with, when we start to kind of stretch incorporate carbs after workouts, that can be something that can help get back into that parasympathetic, not saying that's the only thing, right? But that is that could be one thing. So yeah, that would be kind of my take on that side things.

But I do agree with you. In terms of the overall calorie intake is probably the most important thing when it comes to kind of our hormones, right? And getting those back to a good level, If you have been in a chronic deficit and I will add that I think again I think all it's a context context context, right? Like one of the prime one of the main reasons for infertility and hormonal issues in women being off is actually hyperinsulinemia, right?

Like P cos you know a lot of people who are suffering from hormonal issues, a lot of women who are suffering from hormonal issues, the route is hyperinsulinemia you know, 02 to high and Insulin that insulin resistance and then on the other specs. So and but those people tend not to be, you know, super thin super working out a lot. They're kind of on the other end of the spectrum. But again, you know, U-shaped curve, right?

You go to the far end on the other side and you've got people who are like type a push it to the Limit, you know, working out seven days a week, really stressing out their body.

And a lot of other ways, maybe their body fat percentage has dropped fairly low or, you know, there may be a little under muscle to the They might be skinny fat, but they're not necessarily having just constant high high insulin a and you know, those people definitely, I think to what Rachel was talking about, you know, a more nuanced approach and making sure that they're not overly stressing in every single area of their life.

Including caloric, restriction is also in a very important intervention in terms of hormonal regulation. Yeah, totally agree that, you know, especially from like a nutrient absorption standpoint. Like if I'm going to have a meal post workout, then the more efficiently I can return to a parasympathetic State, the better, my body's going to be able to absorb any of the food I consume.

So, I'm all for, you know, having like a legitimate cooldown, having like a period of meditation, taking a cold, you know, shower something to reset things, and get you back in that parasympathetic state to improve nutrient absorption.

I guess. My, my fear, Is that, you know, when you look at the keto Community as a whole, for instance, the the vast majority is, you know, middle-aged women who need and want to lose weight and they've burned out on alternative dieting methods and they're looking to Quito to fix that. Now, there's obviously a much broader range there but my fear is that they'll be in the keto space looking to accomplish just that they'll hear this message

of metabolic flexibility. And they'll latch onto that because they get to have their cake and eat it too supposedly. And they're coming at it from a place of being metabolically unsound because they've probably chronically under eaten, the vast majority, their lives, their metabolisms down regulated. So they're the worst candidate to start incorporating a bunch of carbs because they're probably insulin resistant and they're not focusing on building

the muscle tissue. It's going to help their metabolism the first place, and they're going to start introducing carbohydrates because it's more sustainable for them emotionally. Lee and then it basically just creates this perfect storm environment for them to not make the progress. They're so needing to make Yeah,

I agree. I mean and that's something that, you know, like the way that I kind of go about as always, you know, looking at first when the person is coming from and if they are, like I said, the Spectrum like if there are if they are overweight, if they are maybe insulin sensitive than I think, you know, incorporating and the ketogenic low-carb diet is the absolute best place to start and then once we can get that under control, right?

If they do want to start to incorporate carbs again, that's kind of where I come in to help. Kind of do that in a way that's not, doesn't have a negative connotation around it, right? And focusing on, you know, the whole food carbs, right? And this is something to that I've seen, and I've done it

myself. It's like sometimes like, I'm think I talked about this with you, Robert on the last few times ago, we recorded like, you know, I would a few years ago, I would be looking to incorporate something and instead of having you know, like a sweet potato, I would have like a keto ice cream filled with bunch of Like artificial stuff, right? And like, looking for, like, kind of the key, do the key to Alternative. I guess you could say.

And so that's where I found just working with clients that that tends to be like they start to incorporate more of these process. Keto treats right, instead of looking at the whole food sources to kind of like, mitigate that. And so, that's where I kind of look at things in the sense of, let's starts. And this is a good kind of maybe a transition into, like,

flexible dieting itself, right? How there's some issues behind that and and what that actually means in terms of being flexible with your diet, versus being flexible, in the sense where you're like, like when we're going down kind of the rabbit hole of County macros and things like that. And like what are you actually eating? Even if it fits into your Macros, because I feel like there's like a bunch of differences there as well. So, does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, totally.

I think. Yeah, the, the concept of metabolic flexibility is definitely a Said are different concept altogether than the the flexible dieting or If It Fits your Macros and their can absolutely be. There's a ton of nuance with all of this. So I always encourage people to place an emphasis on nutrient density and quality Wholesome foods. I mean I own a ketogenic meal replacement bar and I'll always tell people that always opt for real food over anything else.

I feel like a lot of people do, try and incorporate all these fillers, these treats and that that's you know that that can A whole psychological question or discussion as well so we can absolutely dive into that. All right, go ahead there was one point that I think we're going to miss that.

I wanted to back up on and I don't this is not anything any of the three of us has but there are people in the keto space who really emphasized that women need carb ups and you know what I hear Rachel saying which And very much agree with, you know, it's a, it's a nuanced discussion and one that has to do with a lot of, you know, details and emotional and, and mental things, you know. But the thing that I always bump up against in this one and I just don't hear anyone raising

this question a lot. So I thought I would do it before we moved on to the more mental side of things is that there are people out there pushing that if you don't do a carb up every X number of days or whatever you Will screw up your hormones as a woman and, you know, female hormones require these things. And I just wanted to put it out because you know in the discussion of metabolic

flexibility. I think there's a different discussion between you need carbs and carbs might be useful in certain circumstances but it's a nuanced discussion, right? There's there's this sort of a very different conversation between those two, you know, Rachel when you're working with people on this Issue of metabolic flexibility. Have you found that?

There are some people that you're like, well they're just, they just keep those just not working on a hormonal level at all, you know, we bumped up their calories, we've done everything that they're meditating. They're doing all these things except carbs carbs is the last thing to do. So we're going to do that.

Yeah, so I mean again, it all comes down to where the person is coming from and like what exactly what you said like it's so individualized because it's it all it all depends, like what have you done in the past? Like What have you tried but have you not tried? What are the things like? Can we just list out these things? And then we'll go through one by one?

Okay? Yeah. This worked maybe didn't work or maybe you tried this two years ago and it didn't work, but maybe let's try it again now and see where you're at. So, I hundreds and think that, you know, and that's why I just love working and working as a coach and working with individuals, through these things, because it's so individualized. Like, there's just so many different aspects of it that like, I Give a straight answer in terms of, yes, this is the

way to go or yes. This is, you know, carbs are absolutely necessary because I don't think in terms of like absolutely think. I just don't think we can talk in absolutes because I think everybody just so coming from different places, right? So yes, if I'm working with some, if someone comes to me, who, you know, is, you know, overweight and insulin resistance, and, you know, then we carbs is probably like the last thing we're going to work on, right? Right.

But if you come to me and you are maybe, you know, at a lower body fat percentage, you are someone who is working out, you know, six days a week, you're a woman. You're overstressed, you have five kids, you all this stuff like yes, we're going to start to work on first the lifestyle sign of things, right? Like let's reduce your stress, let's get you sleepy more, lets you know, focus on maybe not

doing so much cardio. Let's do the things that we can get you back into this or kind of reduce that stress bucket, right? Because we know, I'll have like a stress bucket and it doesn't matter where the stress is coming from, right? Whether you're under eating, whether you are over-exercising, whether you are just stressed out from like your kids or your husband, or whatever it is. Like, that's all going into the same stress bucket. So let's pinpoint. Those certain things, whether

you're under sleeping, right? Like those are the main things that will hit first and then okay if not of like all that's in check, if you have all those boxes checked and things are still kind of wonky then, let's try something else. Try incorporating cards, let's see how you feel. It's at, right? So that's kind of how I go about it. Just to clarify, though.

Kim just clarify though, Kim. You were, you were taking the perspective of someone that's heard that they're absolutely going to mess up their hormones if they don't consume carbs, right? Right. I think you know it's you know, it's unfortunate, it's just the way of the world, right? Like Quito has become popular and now every person uses the word Quito in their ads. Even if Fair warning you against keto, you know? And they're saying if you don't incorporate car Buffs, you will

mess up, your female hormones. Because Quito is for men. Can we or put that to rest right now? Like I think we could I feel that we can safely. I'll put that the restaurant I will. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's the truth. I mean like Crystal as an example, my wife she's been keto now for five years strictly and she hasn't had any significant increase in carbs her hormones

and never been better. So if that were the case, then then she would be an anomaly and I don't think she's an anomaly. Hmm and she's also been working on eating more, right? Like she's not been in a deficit for for a while, right?

Yeah, correct. Okay. Yeah. I think one of the things that all three of us actually I have come to agree on or I might have been late to the party, because I heard about reverse dieting from Robert, but I think all three of us can probably agree that there is just an epidemic of undereating with a lot of women long-term and that in, and of itself is a huge issue to deal with. And if that's not dealt with then, long-term success is probably unlikely.

Yes, I will try to present value on that, for sure. Agreed. There is one, one thing I wanted to touch on from a physical performance standpoint before we dive into the psychological aspect. And that is that a lot of people especially in the bodybuilding space, they have become convinced that carbs or like we can all agree that that athletes can tolerate more carbs than a

non-athlete. I think we're all in agreement there, someone that is an athlete something that's burning through their glycogen during their training. They're going to be able to Consume more dietary carbohydrates and get away with it and benefit from it, then someone that's not an athlete. However, my argument is that why that is very much, so the case you don't have to have those carbohydrates to improve your performance and you can do so on

a strict ketogenic protocol. Like, I just wanted to throw that out there because I think there's a lot of nuance to that and I do feel like level of adaptation matters. That's why I've been so adamant about strict keto for me personally because I feel like the the more deeply you adapt to any one thing the better and more efficient your body becomes at that, one thing that stands to reason for most things in

life. So my take is that for me personally as a strict ketogenic athlete, my body's ability to perform at a high level. In my aesthetic Endeavors is only benefiting from staying strict I'm like do I talk or do you know on this topic? You go right? Yeah not really my wheelhouse. No I was going to say. I agree with that. Like I don't think carbs are absolutely necessary to like benefit you in terms of bodybuilding terms of performance in the sense that

everybody is told, right? Like you need carbs to perform well I think it is a big adaptation side of things like becoming we're obviously Fat adapted, the more efficient you're going to become. So that's not like, I don't really take that side of things and I actually weren't like a lot of the clients I work with are not like their. I can just think of one client Robert we actually chat about

this like two weeks ago. One of my clients have working with for I think like five or six months. She just had a photo shoot and she like came to me and she is like she was overweight. She found keto lost a bunch of weight and felt really good, but just need to dial in other things. And she just enjoys eating No more carnivore, right? And very low carbs and she had great results and we never like over the five or six months working together. Prepping her for a photo shoot.

Like we never did any car bombs, he never incorporate any carbs, so and she was feeling good with her lips and all that and had a really great result with their photo shoot. So again, it's not like, like I'm coming from a place where I'm like, yes you have to have carbs to perform well and, you know, be your best self and be the healthiest version of you. That's not where My I'm coming from, I'm coming from the sense of you know try and dip things out.

Like if you hit a standstill right and you've done all the other things like okay let's not fear this lets you know, use it for our benefit and do it in a strategic way that it can benefit us. So yeah I mean I agree with you on that Robert totally. So just to recap from from a physiological standpoint, we're all in agreement. That's probably first and foremost is to To become metabolically healthy metabolically, sound become

insulin sensitive. So probably you know being fat adapted obviously eating adequate calories having periods of being in a caloric Surplus and benefiting from that kind of re establishing a baseline Foundation there. And then from a performance standpoint one is not necessarily better than the other. It's kind of more matter of which your body is most adapted to and purr like a preferential thing, almost more Then the anything is that kind of where we're all standing currently.

Yeah, I would say I agree with that.

I would say, you know, in the sense of just performance wise and like, you know, like obviously I did the first study on CrossFit and keto and that study, I just want to mention because a lot of people see that Diner like, oh, you can't do high-intensity exercise, especially across without carbs, you can do it. And from the study, the main kind of premise of this, I was looking at You know, not only CrossFit athletes with the main goal of going across fit, you

know, three or four times a week with that being their exercise. But their main goal is actually to lose body fat, right? So they you know, they progress with that. But when it comes to like doing highly glycolytic Sports, where glucose is like the main fuel source, I'm not saying you can't

do that. You know, if adopted and strict keto, but it might be, you know, advantageous to incorporate carbs especially like on target it like with Targeted approach around your car if you are doing more high, intensity work, like CrossFit if especially if you are if performance in that type of sport, right? Is your main main goal, right? If you're mangosteen course, increased performance.

With a sport that is highly. Glycolytic first is maybe like body building, which is not a highly glycolytic sport, right? So that's kind of like the one place where I would say that maybe carbs could be more beneficial for just from I'm like an overall standpoint. But again, this comes back to the person who is focused primarily on performance in a sport. That is highly like oolitic. I agree. Oh, go ahead and Kim. No, no, you go. I agree.

However, that is where my theory of LinkedIn level of adaptation comes into play. So if you're taking someone for instance, that's been adapted for six months, has great Ketone levels, etc, etc. You know, they would probably benefit totally from having those strong Good carbs in glycolytic demanding activities. However, like for me using myself as an example being strict, he turned out for six months, my body's ability to replenish glycogen through a strict. Ketogenic diet is so much more

efficient than it was. I don't use as much glycogen even in those glycolytic demanding Sports. I mean, I've done CrossFit, I've done these different types of activities and I am in this totally anecdotal. So I don't know if it's gonna hold much weight in the court of law, but I'm able to keep up and surpass. The output of people that are are leveraging carbohydrates. And I think that's really where you have to lean on How Deeply

adapted you truly are. Yeah, but I would say also, like, I'm just curious, like, have you because I know, like, I know you've been strict keto for a long, long time. And I'm just curious. Like, if you have any inclination to try to incorporate carbs and do like an experiment on yourself to see like how you react to it. Because, I know you said, like, you, you know, your body can handle those but have you actually done the experiment. I'm just curious. Not trying to put you on the

spot. No. So I have not Incorporated carbs. Since being key do, however, prior to going into keto, I was doing a bunch of carb, backloading. And I was doing, I was doing bodybuilding Toler wrong way. So I would definitely be in a state of ketosis, just simply from a caloric just, you know, decrease and carb restriction. Now wasn't adapted fat adapted, nearly as deeply as I am now.

So it would be an interesting experiment, but I'm, I'm of the mindset for me personally that I'm getting so much better due to my level of adaptation that I don't want to screw that. That up by conducting that experiment, if that makes sense. Gotcha. It's a hard at what I wanted to say. Go ahead, I didn't mean to catch other. It's just a hard.

It's hard because my theory will likely not be proven because nobody's going to be able to get a test pool of applicants willing to be strict, keto for long enough and be able to conduct a scientific study on. So I'm kind of shooting myself in the foot by making that a theory in the first place. Would you ever consider doing an experiment? Like just for the just to see, like me if I'm having a gun to your head and I was like, yeah, if you had a gun to my head.

Yeah, I probably would eat carbohydrates. Is Rachel? No, no. But in all seriousness, like, have you ever thought, like, I'm just curious, like, have you ever thought about doing, you know, I know like well, because at your level of adaptation, Is like, what I'd be most interested in seeing like how? Like, because you are probably the person that I know the, the one person I know who's as adapted as you are, right? I don't think I know anybody else who's been like strict for

as long as you have. So I would just be curious to see like how you do react to carbs and like, how you know, how that would look? But yeah, totally. I mean, I'm honestly incredibly curious as well and I'm not carb phobic at all. Like I would totally eat carbs from that standpoint. Not, you know, willing to depression or anything like that, but it has become a psychological thing for me at this point because I've been

strict get over this long. I feel like like as an influencer as somebody in the space, a lot of people that do not have a good relationship with carbs. Look to me as a source of inspiration to know that they can perform at a high level, following a strategic approach and I can tolerate carbs much better than they could, but I don't want to do them wrong in a sense by taking that away from being the strict Quito. So it's like this weird

relationship. It's totally much more psychological and it is physiological at this point, so I don't want to do that experiment. But I am incredibly curious to see what that experiment would result in. Same, but I understand what you're getting. What you're saying, yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, just just because that coming around a point this out like, you know what, this debate that happens a lot in the in this keto space, right? As like, do you need carbs, like

should targeted carbs. Be a thing, you know, really applies to the upper echelon athlete. Like this is a very small population compared to the wide world of Quito. And so I just want to put it out there to the listeners that if your cross. Athlete. This might apply to you, but it might not apply to, you know, the woman who hasn't been to the gym in several years for decades. And so, you know, just just just to put a point on it and then

the other. But the thing that I wanted to say was like somebody like Zach bitter. Right? Who he trains. Low carb heat. Oh and then he does use as far as I know some carbs pre-race, you know, this is a person who's extremely fat adapted and Stays fat adapted.

And and when they strategically, add those carbs in a elite racing situation, you know, I almost look at them, not like an illegal drug, but I almost look like that application of carbs is like, I guess you could call it a supplement, right, like rather than sort of one of their main nutrient sources in that performance example rather than because it's not how they live

every day. They're still Being fat adapted all the time, but they might apply a bit of of targeted glucose to a performance situation, which I see as very different than just day-to-day life. Yeah, totally. And I don't want to put any words in Zach's mouth, because I don't recall, but I'm pretty sure I heard him talking on a Rogan podcast that he's not strict, keto all the time by any means.

Mainly he'll eat carbs, even when he's not doing a race, I don't think he gets a ton of I think so, I think he just goes back and forth and in that situation then. Yeah. I feel like, you know, his body would be quote, unquote, very metabolically flexible and he could benefit from having a mix of both. I don't think it would be required.

Like, if Zack was to say, hey, I'm just going to be strictly to all the way and that was his new norm and that was his known for enough time that his body became deeply adapted. I think you could totally Excel as an ultramarathon Runner without carbs. But I think he just chooses to incorporate both Okay, bad example picking a insert other name then I don't know I don't want exact exact protocol there. Well I would just say like just to go off your point of, you

know, a targeted key approach. That's usually you know, when I'm like working with clients and again just bring this all back to practicality and where the person is coming from.

If you're listening to this and you maybe you're like oh I do want to try this or you know no I'm good but it like from the practical sense like when I'm working with clients and we are going to incorporate carbs and it is someone who is you know working Out then we you know transition first to that Target approach because like Robert said we know you know when you are incorporating carbs, special around your workout.

We know that your muscles are more insulin sensitive, in the fact that they will, you know, absorb those carbs a little bit better, post workout especially versus another time at day. Like if you're just another time today, if you're just like sitting on the couch doing nothing. So I think that is definitely like if you're looking for somewhere to start like maybe start with and this is something we do like start with the minimum effective dose, right?

Like Not just go from eating 50 carbs to eating like 200 carbs or 3:00 whatever like start with the minimum effective dose and this ends of like, try out to see what works for you. And again, this is so different for everybody, right? Because we are all our own individual.

So Yeah, totally I didn't and I think like perfer for me before all open the door like because of the I'm working with a more perhaps metabolically deranged population and then you guys might not to put words in your mouth.

I'm sure you work with lots of different people, but the population that I that I work with, you know, my rules that I've come up with recently is sort of some cutoff points is like if you're fasting insulin isn't under five and your c-peptide is isn't ER 1.6 and your A1C is over 5.4, you know, probably you shouldn't open that door, right? You have to meet some physiological Health markers around. Metabolic Health before we start

to really Flex if you will. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I see a lot of people, sadly whoo-hoo, you know, the appeal of introducing a greater variety to their their plate is very strong and They, they look at an athlete that is able to get away with eating a plate, full of sushi and assume that they can as well. So they'll have a massive bowls of carbs in justification of the workout. They just did, which was simply cleaning the house, which is not a good representation. I don't think.

Yeah, I agree with that. I would say one thing I was a, but this is just in terms of that, like, I totally agree with, you know, again that Spectrum, like, where are you at on? That Spectrum will kind of determine like, potentially like where you're going to like what you're going to do. Right? What you're going to try out. What if you are going to a corporate carbs or not but then just from like a psychological

side of things I've seen. Kind of especially if you are maybe you are on that spectrum and you're at the point where maybe all of those markers are not telling you to incorporate carbs. But you are psychologically in a place where, you know, maybe you're trying to just fight against not doing that. And then it ends up becoming something where you go out and binge on, you know, a milkshake and a Big Mac or something, right?

Versus if we were to strategically, maybe incorporate a little bit more Whole Foods carbs in the sense that maybe we are, you know, tapping into that psychological side of things and giving you a little bit of what you're, you know. Maybe you want, and then we're not maybe getting to the point where you're overdoing it, and that binge is happening, right?

So that's another thing from the psychological side of things because, you know, you might not be at the point where you should be incorporating carbs, but maybe it happens, if you are being too restrictive in that sense so that's just something else to kind of think about, I agree. Yeah I hear you on that point it. Not like they wanted a carb salad, right? Are a Cobb salad. Wow. A pork salad. Hey, they want anything, right? They wanted a Cobb salad. They were like, oh, a big salad,

sounds good. No, I shouldn't have that, I'll have the, you know, skinless, chicken breast, you know, and and only that and then like later that afternoon, they drive through Dunkin Donuts. Like, you know, I certainly think that there can be some East is made when you're not metabolically healthy yet like there still may be slightly higher carb choices, you know into one of these points, right?

Like we set a lot of us who've been in this keto game a long time, like the carb line has been set very low at this point, right? Like 20 grams or less or you're not. He do you know day of 40, grams of carbs because you had an avocado, you know, might not be the worst. First thing, I think it's really a question of degrees and subtlety there versus, you know, I am so restrictive in the way that I approach my way of key Towing that I then my only pressure release valve is the

drive-thru. Yes. Yeah. I totally agree on offer. I think we could all probably agree that at the end of the day you know we don't want anybody to have this massively negative relationship with any Regroup and if that is happening, then you're likely going to be miserable and that's not good. And you're probably going to spot a control or binge or have developed some type of eating disorder which is going to have a net negative outcome. Regardless of what dietary

protocol you're following. So I think it just becomes a matter of what do you find to be most sustainable and sustainable in a way that Hedges your bets and put you your trajectory on the right path, going Going forward and typically like like with the metabolic flexibility approach, you're taking more of a moderation approach and with me being strict kid, I'm taking more of an elimination approach and there's going to be groups of people that do better with moderation as a people that do

better with elimination. I don't think one is right or wrong. I think it's just going to become very individualized, but I think the way you tackle that and your relationship with that approaches key, Agreed. And I do think also that there is a lifecycle issue, right? Like or you know where are you like when I first started keto I

would I'm a data nerd, right? So like, I would test my blood ketones and if my total grams of carbs went over 29 Grand it's like a it was like an on/off switch, right? Like, you know, I and from Whole Foods, you know, if I had some Slackers, right? Those black seeds would kick me. I'd be like, wait. My ketones, you know, and that's a very different situation than I'm in four years later.

And, you know that there is flexibility, I'm eating way more carbs now than I used to, but I'm still well under 50 a day, you know? And it's, it's, and I'm still seeing ketones my proteins different than it used to be my fat levels different like over time. Everything might shift in terms of what serves you best and I think one of the enemy's of Nobility is dogmatism, right? Is like, it has to be this way. This is the one way to do it.

And I think probably all of us would agree that you have to be at least mentally flexible enough to say. Hmm, I wonder if this is still the best thing for me to do. Yeah, I agree completely and I think it also changes to like everything just changes over time.

Like, our bodies are constantly changing especially like you said, when you first start off, like it's different for 5 years ago, than it might be now for where you're at, especially, if you are becoming more metabolically healthy. So I think that's, you know, very important to think about and then it's also like to your point, Robert about the flex, the elimination versus moderation side of things.

I personally think that Like, when we talk about the moderation side things, I think still, we need to kind of talk to the like the process food aspect of things.

Because you know, personally for me like if I have like, even if I am, you know, incorporating more carbs in my life which I do, like, I will keep, you know, sweet potatoes in the house and I'll keep fruit in the fridge and things like that, but I'm not going to keep a bag of chips in my cabinet or a box of Cinnamon Toast Crunch in my in my cabinet because those things

I can't moderate. And for most people for most people that I work with and for, for most people, I think like those things are very, very hard to moderate because they just cause you two obviously overeat. So, and then same thing like having ice cream in your fridge and even if it is like keto ice cream too. Like those are the things where

it's more. So talking to the fact that, you know, you have to be very careful when you're kind of tipping this seesaw of moderation because In this day and age like it's just so hard to moderate those things that are so hyper palatable and it's not saying that like no you you know shouldn't eat regular ice cream ever again but like don't keep it in the house if you want to have, you know, scoop of regular ice cream, maybe you go out and have that, you know, on

a Friday night. And if that's something that you can incorporate, and you can still feel good and that kind of side of things with incorporating more carbs. And, and having a little bit more of a treat in that sense than do that. But then, there's other people who can't even do that. Right. Like because it's so you know, psychologically draining like if they're going to go have a scoop of regular ice cream, like then they might even go back and have like, 10 Scoops, right?

So it's one of those things. But I think the biggest thing is to think about, like setting your personal environment up for what, you know, that you can adhere to best. And I think for most of us, no matter where you're at, that's probably keeping as much of the process stuff out of the house is possible. Even if it is Quito, if it is not keto, like I do, we all agree on that or no, 100%. Yeah, I definitely agree. I mean, one of the things that I deal with a lot with my clients, right?

I do this coaching Circle and there was this just this, this this couple of weeks Series where we were all very focused on ice cream so it just brought up. This is thought what you were just talking about.

And you know one of the things that were talking about was you know that there's new brand of ice cream had come out that, you know, that was keto and people wanted to try it and you and so it was like, okay, so it's time to people and they'd be like Yeah, you know, I ate more than I meant to and I was like, well, describe what you did, you know, they're just eating it straight out of the carton, I'm like, okay, you know, danger sign one,

if you do not have the self-control to put a serving in a bowl, right? That is a line, we draw, you know, and then it was like, the next one was like, well, I allow it in my macros if I don't have dinner and I'm like, okay, wait, like that is another line we draw like, where you have to have like, It's much more complicated, it's got, I guess

what I'm saying. Like, if you want to incorporate treats, which I'm actually for in certain circumstances, you have to have so much stronger mental, emotional, boundaries around them, I don't have to draw like rules as much around broccoli, right? Like I don't or even a sweet potato, right? I don't have to but for some people it might be a sweet potato. Right? For me.

It's any food that you feel like you lack control around and and so if there's any food, which, you know, are probably going to be the more processed foods that you lack control around, you need to put up a stronger barriers to abusing that food. Yeah, I think it's going to go on a tangent here for a second, so bear with me. I think life. Everything in life is cyclical, energy is cyclical. The plan is cyclical, like you cannot be all one.

Way hundred percent time you will burn out and I've learned this the hard way, but if you set yourself up so that you're trending in the right direction, the vast majority of the time, you will succeed on the macro level. So, for me, like, what I'm doing a competition prep, and I'm counting everything to the G. I'm dialed in anything that is not 100%. Optimized is not in my nutrition period. Like I leave nothing to chance when I'm not in the competition prep, which I do not Not do all

the time. I mean it's very important to have periods where you're in a caloric Surplus. Like we talked about earlier I'm a lot more relaxed. Like I'm still keto, I'm not taking anything that is distracting. Me are moving me in the wrong trajectory but it's not 100% optimized dial than 100 percent of time. Like for instance, it's hunting season, now all have more like it's my birthday today.

Somebody made me a ketogenic cake and it was amazing, but it was totally Whole Food ketogenic food. It wasn't something that I would incorporate on a competition prep, but it was Something that I could eat enjoy moderates and not feel like I'm a slave to in just over consume and overindulge during hunting season. All I'll have a couple whiskey and cokes with a z via Coke.

Not a regular Coke but as Eva Coke that to me is a great way to hedge my bets and not derail me but not cause me to feel like I'm just going to burn out either by being so incredibly strict. So knowing where your own personal have the self-awareness to know where your boundaries

lie is incredibly important. But having periods of time where you are 100% and having period of time where you're more relaxed but even almost period of time, where you're more relaxed to set them up and structure them in a way that you're not going to be moving in the opposite direction. Moving in the wrong direction, I think is key. I agree. Sorry, there was a little background noise there Kim. Are you still there? I'm sorry guys. My headphones went wonky.

I had to switch her mouth. Oh, Kim. Messing up my rant. Yeah, I'm sorry. Did I screw up the sound now, you get? Okay. I was like, it's a good time. He's on a rant about know I think I think that was a good a good rant. I think I mean it I think we could have probably predicted this at the very beginning of this conversation but it really all comes down to individuals

and there's so much Nuance here. But for me, it's like, I don't believe in this balance per say we're like work-life balance, for instance. Because like, when you look at, I mean, it kind of like like this whole duel fuel system as well. Like you can't be 100% of two conflicting things at the same time. Like if you're fifty percent of Be 50% the other, but you can't be 100% of both if they're conflicting, that's why I've tried to structure my life in a way that everything is

symbiotic. It's more of a work-life nutritional Circle instead of balance, where it's something's teetering on one end of the spectrum of the other. And for me, personally, if all of my Foods, I mean, with, with all the hype that Quito is, now, there's so many ketogenic Alternatives that are like, like, ketogenic ice creams that are good whole sources of food. They're not probably the healthiest. They probably have more sweeteners in them than Is optimal, but they're not bad

foods. They're just not optimal foods and I would always personally gravitate towards that as opposed to something that is just bad food. Yeah. And I would agree that that probably goes for pretty much. Any any food, right? Like not just keto processed up like anything like and that's something to like I used to do that for a while. Probably say like the spoons bad.

So I'm not going to have it but I think that's also something to like when you're putting like morality behind food that I think that can also mess with your psychology or psychological reaction to those things. And so just kind of you know and I think everybody knows like choosing the more optimal. Food is going to make you feel more, make you feel better,

right? Choosing and I always just say, like, you know, did it have a face at some point or did it Grow from the earth of first did have a face at some point? Or did it Grow from the earth at some point? If you can check those two boxes then generally it's probably more optimal versus the other side of things. Yeah. So Yeah, Indian side forward.

Wisdom Kim. Yeah, is my no, you know, I think one of the things that I think comes into play is, you know, very much on the mental side and, and, and how Increasing why I would say widening the door mentally to allow more types of foods is important. You know, one of the things that, you know, when I first started, I'm really we all have our embarrassing teen years,

right? You know, when I first started keto, of course it was like all about the food list and you can have that and you can't have that. And this is, this is a yes. And this is a no. And then it's like, you know, it's like The Beginner's thing,

right? Like what you, what you later, learn, you're totally embarrassed that you used to say, but you It's helpful at the same time that black and white yes know like when you first start something having clear rules and guidelines is very very helpful. And you know when you can kind of follow the rule of like when in doubt, leave it out is very helpful for keto in my opinion, especially when you're first starting and it feels

overwhelming and complex. And so the problem is, you know, people then get stuck in Those boxes where you're like, no, no. Those were training wheels. Mmm. And now it's time to really like, if you don't know why, if it's just like this is on the yes list, this is on the Note list. If you don't know why, this is on the S list and why this is on the no list, your kind of a slave for the rest of your life to a list, rather than being somebody that can make Intelligent Decisions about your

health. Like here's an example. There's a very famous bread from a He that starts with an A out, you know, sweeping a lot of people in the key to world that is full. It is very, very low net carbs, right? And so people are like all about it and then there's this other bread that I sometimes see, that's like from a company called base culture.

It has more carbs, but when you look at the comparative ingredient lists like I would feel safer and more comfortable with the one that has a few more. Herbs because I know what those ingredients are and what they do in my body. And so I think that is not a decision that I could have made. You know, when I first started to Quito with as much certainty as I can now, but I think it's all of our responsibility to know that it's complex and we

are not simple individuals. I don't think we all are meant to eat, more carbs, more carbs doesn't equal better, but at the same time, you know, Only paying attention to carbs is a mistake that I think no it is just a mistake and so you know it's a more nuanced discussion than a food list would indicate. Yeah. I think whether you choose to eat more carbs or less carbs, either way, you should be honest with those carbs and count total carbs, I agree.

Yeah, one of my biggest frustrations right now with the ketogenic food space and I'm probably a bit more biased it because I have a food product. Is these companies that hide Hind this net carb count because that's what some people in the keto space that have just recently got into the keto spacer trained to look at. And with the way, people can be so deceptive with what is in their product, it just that

grabs me to no end. So anybody listening, I think we can all three agree that total carbs is key, and I think that would be a huge takeaway. Yeah, and I think it's this place where we're trying to follow the people are. This is just human nature, right? We want to follow the letter of the law, but I think in Quito, it's more important to follow the spirit of the law.

Right? Is like, the letter of the law is like, well, I can do a mathematical equation that gets my cards under 20. The spirit of the law is if the total carbs remain under x amount, I seem to be doing a great job metabolically. And so I'm going to pay attention to that. So, net carbs is all about, in my opinion, it has become about. I don't know that it was meant to be about, but it has become about playing reindeer games with your carb counts and not caring about the effects of

those carbs. What? You just pulled a can bury with that reindeer game analogy there. I spent a little too much time with him but yeah, I totally agree. I mean I think you know, people can operate well with, I mean, certain people can operate well with more carbs and others. For sure, but I think, you know, being honest with yourself and just looking holistically, at where those carbs, or any other macronutrient for that matter is coming from is is definitely

key. I think we would all agree that prioritizing nutrient density is important. There's just, like we said, this whole time, there's so much Nuance to this and their relationship with food is so important. Like a lot of people and and I'm probably gonna have a game, kind of a different perspective on This same topic than you would rate your but you used the example we can dive into this a little deeper, but you use the

example of like a wedding. Like if you're at a wedding and you'll want to eat that cookie, you know, you should have that cookie and and be able to have the appropriate relationship with food to do so and I'm of the perspective of why our do you feel like you're a slave to the cookie in the first place? It's like we want to accomplish the same thing. We want people to have a healthy relationship with the food they're eating but it's just coming at it from two different.

Perspectives. Yeah, I'm but I would say, two like my perspective would be like you shouldn't like you shouldn't feel like you're this late to the cookie, right? Like you should be like if you, you know, not saying like you have to eat the cookie, but if you want to eat it and then like after that, like can you move on and go back to like your normal eating, right? Like the next day or whatever it may be, and not have this guilt behind that cookie.

But I think this goes for anything like in terms of Dude, in the relationship with food. And I would say that one thing to like I just want to mention like, overall is something that's real that really helped me was like, I was kind of so stuck in my own head for a long time.

And I like never, like, I would always try these different things, but I never had, like, any type of, like, outside perspective or like someone who was kind of looking in from the outside saying, like, Okay, like maybe we should try this. So let's try this or, you know, kind of seeing how things are

going, not just in the food. Sense of things, but also like the lifestyle side of things and like the other, you know, stress and sleep and like how all those things play into also, how your may be reacting to the things that you're doing.

So I think that's something to just the thing about like you, if you are listening to this and if you have been struggling for a long time to kind of figure out like what does work best for you and like maybe you've been spinning your wheels and trying to think that I think that's super important to realize. Like it's okay to ask for help and it's okay to, you know, have

someone else maybe. Look in and see what you're doing and maybe make outside suggestions because we're all in our head and sometimes we can block out these things and not even realize what we're doing. So I think that's just one thing. Like that's been a life changer for me, is like, hiring my own coach, right? And like, I think that's something that, you know, if it again, if you're listening and you are spinning your wheels. Think about getting that outside perspective.

Think about maybe not even just not but like just having the accountability side of things, someone that you have to check in with every single week. Week that you can talk through these things with because you don't have to do it alone. Totally it's interesting because we all pretty much we all pretty much met each other at roughly the same time. We've all been in the keto space for roughly the same time.

I feel like we're all kind of oh jeez in the space and I feel like there's there's just there's become a lot of noise within the community. There is a lot of dogmatic thinking and that mean honestly there's a pretty fine line between Dogmatic. And disciplined. I mean, where is that line drawn? It's pretty hard to know, and I am incredibly disciplined as a person almost to a fault at times and I don't ever want to be painted into the corner of being dogmatic.

Add result of that discipline, but there is so many conflicting viewpoints anybody. It's just coming into the space new. They're not going to know where to look. So it's always cool for me to just sit down and talk with with y'all because you know we don't

see each other, right? Basis but we're hearing many of the same things when we come together and unite and just you know, hash things out, I feel like that's just incredibly valuable for people to hear and assimilate and then break down in their own way with their own mind and figure out what

resonates well with them. Totally, I think it's I think it's important to stay open and and have these discussions with people that you are not completely in alignment with like in your mind and then you realize that you are we go, we are totally aligned. It's just that like which foot we lead with kind of and, you know, to Rachel's point, I think that, either coaching or peer mentorship or just support of somebody because it is totally true. That we can get super stuck in her own head.

You know, I for a good year or was like just banging my head against the wall, not seeing progress. I was like I'm doing all the right things. I'm not I'm doing this. I'm doing that.

I'm doing this other thing. I've been you know doing a lot of reading I'm doing all my research and like nothing was really working and it was through conversations with Robert that I was like, oh well I really haven't looked at maybe I'm under eating, maybe I'm you know overstressing you know and and and I and I had to take a year off from kind of the approach that not from Quito. I stayed keto, but I had to take a year off from the, kind of way that I was going about things

and put those Health pillars back in place in my, or I guess I never had them. So I would in place for the first time in my life to actually see results and I wouldn't have seen that if I had stayed in my own little mental Silo. Yeah, yeah. Actually I heard a pretty good analogy the other day.

From Lane Norton of all people about these informational silos that are just running rampant everywhere in all Industries, right now, and large part, probably because of social media and we live in our own Echo Chambers. And these form these informational silos. So there's so many silos filled with many, many pieces of great information, great content, but it's like, we don't even, you know, allow ourselves to be open to that information.

Ian, which is incredibly detrimental, but I feel like, that's what that's why. I'm just a huge fan of having this conversation. That's what we're talking for an hour and 18 minutes in now, we're keep he talking about. Yeah. And I think like to bridge the point between you guys in the ice cream and no ice cream or the cupcake at the wedding. And I would like to urge people that if you're going to have a cupcake, choose one, that's better than a wedding cupcake there.

I've never anyway. But I don't know why. Use? I just always think of a wedding. I don't, I guess. I just keep using that same example. It's like, literally just like I'm teasing you is is you know a couple of years ago. I went out. I was in Lake Tahoe with my family. My brother, and all his little kids and my parents and we all went out for ice cream and you know it was this lovely setting and we're outside eating ice cream and I just didn't get an

ice cream. Like I was like I'm here with you guys eating ice cream and there was this moment that I like kind of checked in emotionally with myself and I was like, I am 100% fine. Not eating ice cream right now. Like it was there, you know, because I've certainly been in lots of situations where I've not eaten ice cream. But I've desperately wanted to eat the ice cream and I was like, I don't really care about the ice cream, and that experience was incredibly freeing.

I don't feel like I'm a better person because I didn't eat the ice cream though. I think that's really important because I grew up in a household where it was good or bad, you are good or bad, if you a tour. Right. And I like, I really see the sort of mental judgment, I but I also felt to Roberts kind of perspective. I think a little bit more, the freedom of the lack of Mead and I think there's a place that until you've gotten there.

There's probably some emotional work to be done in have in choosing to have the ice cream because I feel like after having enough experiences where I could choose not to have the ice cream and not have it. Pull on me. I'm in a mental space where I actually can choose where as before then. I don't know that I could have called it a choice. I yeah I'm going to I'm I completely agree to you because literally that's exactly kind of

how I felt deal to as well. And and like, I've gone through, you know, periods of like when I was strict keto that was one of

the reasons why I was like. This is really amazing because I can go into you know walk past a donut shop or whatever and so The donuts and not have that urge to need the donut or go out to ice cream with people and not have the like I have the freedom to not feel like I'm missing out and I still have that freedom now but that's because I have gone through that period of, you know, like you said exactly like that period of time where I just kept saying no. Right.

Like I said no. And then I realized that, you know, I didn't die afterwards and I didn't feel like I was missing out and you kind of just practice that behavior and then maybe you do get to the point where Are, you know, you are incorporating more carbs or whatever it is, and then maybe you do like in one situation, you do have a bite of the donut but then maybe the next situation you don't or maybe you do have the piece of cake at the wedding and then maybe you

don't. And I think it's just kind of realizing like you know what's worth it to you and the sense of that, but can you also, you know, be you know like open to that and to be aware? I think just the wareness part of things that's like something that I focus on a lot with

myself. My clients are just like being aware of the situation but I totally agree with what you said, Kim like, you know, being able to go through those periods of time or you can just say constantly constantly say no because you're really just trying to kind of training your mind to say you know it's okay to say no and I don't need that and then maybe you know further down the line you continue to say no but then maybe you do say yes once in a while so I think.

Yeah so I agree with that. Can I say one more little tangent? Sure. I feel like. A lot of people use their other family members or their kids as a scapegoat to incorporate Foods when they don't even have a good relationship with Foods in the first place. And that's been a big frustration for me. Like I think I let people use kids. I mean kids are much more insulin sensitive, it's kind of going the opposite direction now, but generally speaking, kids are much more insulin

sensitive. They're, you know, going through growth spurts that are, they're burning a lot of calories and ran outside all day and they can Tolerate a lot more carbs. I'm not suggesting that kids just be super strict keto but what I am saying is that a lot of parents let their kids eat low quality foods that are much higher in carbs and then they feel like they're supposed to allow themselves to eat those foods with their kids in order to enrich their relationship

with their kids. And that to me I feel like as a massive cop-out and a big frustration Yeah, I would agree. I also, I think it's, I mean, I get this a lot, like, I don't know, Rachel probably does as well. I am the only key to one in my house. How do I do this? And in my house, I'm the only. My boyfriend is not keto. My cabinets are full of things. I'm not full, but they had. They include things that I do not eat, but I haven't broken into the Chips.

Ahoy right? I don't, I don't eat them. I'm actually a if I'm To eat something Carby. I'm a lot more likely to say, you know, when I'm at a fancy restaurant on a holiday, you know, be like I will have one bite of your chocolate souffle because to me, that's worth it versus this. Kind of low quality car. Be food that I don't really have any interest in, but I think that is again, to the Rachel. And I talked about a minute ago,

like, it's a muscle, you work. And I feel like, I'm a stronger person with better boundaries now, Being the only key to one in my house than, you know. Yeah, it would be easier if everybody in the whole world ate the way that I do, but that's unlikely to happen. And I think you can get there where you can walk down the curb. Filled grocery aisle because you took a wrong turn and not put anything in your cart. Hmm. Definitely. And that should be liberating.

I mean, there is there's a time where I wouldn't allow myself to walk through the bakery section of grocery store because that pulled on me. So now I And walk right through. I don't care. I think that's where people need to be able to get. Yeah. Well, what else are we gonna talk about? Are we pretty much hit all the main topics? What are y'all excited about what's 2020? Get in store for you for the rest of the year. He's been an interesting one. Yeah, ready for 2021. Yeah. Yeah.

It's almost here. It's getting pretty close. We need to have like a, I don't know if even the conference is going to be back in Action next year. I'm not sure. But I feel like we say this, every time we talk but all these conferences that were cancelled this year and have kept us from interacting face-to-face, like we normally do has been a huge frustration for all of us. And I'm just incredibly excited for us all to regroup in person

face-to-face. It's like humans are supposed to interact and I remember looking forward to that. So I miss y'all and I can't wait to see you in person, same wonder, wonder, compound part to going to be complete. I will probably move in in June or July of next year, but it's

going to be so sweet. When we when we move in, I'm going to have the podcast setup all for in-person recordings and I'm going to fly y'all both out there all-expense-paid will Have a full-blown podcast will like work out together, we'll do whatever it be. Like a to be an experience that have just a zoom call. Well, let's do it. I'm stoked good. Hey Robert I just got a shipment of your new flavor of Quito brick and so I'm going to do a little live later today and share my experience.

Nice. Rachel said, she's going to try it for breakfast tomorrow. See how both had? Let me know what you think. Sounds good will do well. Where can people go to find all of us since this is all going out on. Platforms, I guess we'll just start with you. Rachel, where are you located?

I'm located on Netflix life.com. Yeah, mat Flex life.com, is my website and on social media, most active on Instagram, my handles at Rachel, Gregory dots CNS and if you like to see puppies on a daily basis, I my story with my puppy because I just can't help it. So if you just get a puppy, I did about a month ago. Now I can't believe it's already

a month, pretty much. The cutest Instagram story of all over now, like I literally just watch your puppy and it makes my day happy well I'm glad to hear that hopefully it doesn't annoy people because that's all I possibly be right now. We could take as many puppies as we can get Rachel. All right. Well, I'll keep, I'll keep that up. And I'll blame you guys if I get any, hopefully, your account doesn't get disabled or something crazy like that, you know. Yeah, I know, right.

Like who's gonna Deny a puppy. Come on. I know, I can't do that. What about you Kim? So I'm at Kim Howerton.com. And you can find me on the socials at the Ketone assist, which is th e, KET, 0, and is T. Nice. Nice. I am keto Savage.com, and I am at keto, brick.com for meal replacement bar. Instagram is Quito Savage and at live savage because my account did get this able for a And it wasn't because I was posted a bunch of puppy videos so I don't

know what's going on there. But keto Savage and live savage and that will wrap up this podcast. So yeah, you'll have a great one. All right, love you guys. See you soon? Take care. See ya. Bye.