What's going on? Ladies and gents? Robert Sykes keto, Savage.com. And today I've got special guest Kristen bear on the line for you. She is a board certified, family medical doctor, and we dive into all things Quito and medicine. She was a former vegan has been 45 years or was 45 years. I should say, as we talked about that kind of why she transitioned out of that from there. She went to paleo.
So we talked about that. And then we drove into Quito and what she's noticed having been keto for as long as she has. And then we talked about how he do. Has kind of changed the game a lot within the medical community, kind of what the future of that may look like some some possible. Pitfalls some obstacles and some ways to overcome them. So really enjoyed the conversation, learned a ton from Chris and she's a wealth of knowledge. Hope you learned something as well. Sit back, relax.
Enjoy the conversation. And we're live, Chris, and I are you. I'm good. Thanks. How are you doing? I'm doing great for anybody. That does not know which would be everybody. This is our second take on the podcast. We had a pretty good conversation the first time and then I literally lost all the audio. My computer crashed right? After we ended the recording and I just felt terrible. So I appreciate you jumping back on here with me. Yeah, no problem at all. It was a good conversation.
Hopefully, we can recap the highlights of it. Yes. Well let's start with them. I guess this will be the second time here, a little background from you but give the audience a little background on you your past kind of what brought you into the space and kind of I know we talked about you doing quite a little a lot of different nutritional protocols prior to finding your way into
the low carb keto space. Yeah, so my background I was diagnosed with lupus of probably about 10 years ago and at the time we didn't really get much nutritional training. In medical school but I was convinced there was something I could do to treat my autoimmune symptoms which were a mix of body aches joint. Pains fatigue headaches, just general malaise and not feeling well I was convinced. There was something I could do outside of traditional
medication. So I started reading about alternative treatments and I came across a book that led me to a vegan diet as a means of controlling autoimmune disease. So, I was vegan for about five years and I did not feel any better. I actually think by symptoms got worse and at a whole bunch of other problems. Creep up during that time, like a B12.
Deficiency started to develop horrible migraines, ulcers, I was extremely irritable and anxious and depressed, and went on antidepressants, and it was just, it was a rough few years so after Five years of the vegan lifestyle. I thought this is not working. I need to try something else and I discovered Rob Wolf's work with paleo and gave Leo a try
and pretty quickly. I started to notice some improvements and definitely had more energy and my symptoms from lupus definitely improved but they weren't quite completely alleviated and I took it up a notch and did the Paleo Autoimmune protocol, which was great but I found it a little challenging to stick to for those who aren't familiar. It's it's pretty restrictive. You eliminate dairy grains.
Nightshades nuts and seeds, and it's a pretty restrictive diet, but admittedly, I did feel better when when I was on it, but all this time, I just, it still was not feeling 100%. I was on and off of steroids plus daily medication for lupus, Yes. And I was on more and more medication for migraines, which word like the one thing that we're not getting better and if anything they were getting worse, they were getting worse while you were paleo.
Yeah, yeah. And you know, some of it, you tribute, maybe it's stress lack of sleep. During this time, I was going through residency which is, you know, not the best years of your life. And, you know, there there are other factors that could have played in but I was really, really becoming debilitated by Daily migraines. I was throwing up and almost dysfunctional. When I had one that led me to a book called the migraine Miracle by dr.
Josh Turk net. And that was the first time I had ever heard of the ketogenic diet all through medical school and residency, never heard of this way of eating, even as a treatment for epilepsy, never crossed our studies. So, I researched it for a while. First, because it was so, Out of the normal for what we're taught, right? You know, we're taught to eat low fat, high fiber, fruits and vegetables and then this keto diets telling us the opposite.
Eat a high fat diet eliminate grains and I really just wanted to research it on my own first to make sure it wasn't going to give me a heart attack and I it just kind of opened up this whole new world of medicine that I had not been exposed to before and all these Research and how our nutritional guidelines came
to be and I felt confident. It was safe to try and within a couple weeks, my migraines were completely gone and I was able to wean off of four medications pretty quickly and which I thought was miraculous after having tried everything else just simply changing. My diet was the most effective treatment for migraines. And what I wasn't expecting is that my autoimmune symptoms them's all seem to get better as
well. So after that I started researching more and more about keto and other applications and the mechanisms of how it really worked. And I I've been a huge advocate for it ever since. That's also I want to dive into. So like you I mean most doctors and medical professionals like when they go through human Medical School residency. Like you're given a very minimum you touch on nutrition very minimally throughout all the
teachings. I mean, I've heard some people say it's like not even a full page on a textbook hardly with, with that said, like when you're doing this. I mean, you're taught and told about how you got to, you know, mitigate any unnecessary saturated fats and whatnot. So it's like it's like not even coming from a textbook, was just
kind of like here. Say like the word on the street so to speak, but then you start actually incorporating that style of eating and you notice improvements within a few weeks kind of crazy that. That's exactly it. We really did not have any Ditional education during during those years of medical school and residency. If anything we learned about vitamins and nutritional deficiencies but not what the proper human diet is.
And it is just kind of going with the Norms of what everyone else is doing limit that and go with the Ada guidelines and the American diabetic Association and it's just it was not doing anything for me and Quickly, I came to realize where these guidelines came from and it's kind of faulty cherry-picked science and with people who have financially driven agenda.
And it's a little concerning that so many health professionals and doctors succumb to all of these guidelines Without Really knowing where they came from and the dangers of what we're doing. Yeah, it is, it is mind-boggling backtracking a little bit more when you were Vegan for five years, when you were you doing, like a, some assuming you were pretty knowledgeable about vitamins nutrients efficiencies. That's what you were studying, basically, did you notice that?
Like most, I feel like most vegans have a nutrient deficiency over a period of time. My maintain that lifestyle, that's honestly what a lot of people State when it comes to, like, all, like, podcast whatnot are talking about, how And vegan diets leads to some type of malnutrition nutrient deficiency. Were you pretty Keen keyed in on that and trying to be? I just want top of your nutrition and top of your
supplementation and whatnot. While you were being, yes, I definitely tried and you, there's like, with keto, there's various ways to do a vegan diet, you can eat Whole Foods and be very clean about it or you can eat. You can still eat processed junkie carbs all the time and I really tried to eat a clean Diet then I ate a ton of beans and lentils and leafy greens. And peanut butter was my go-to.
I was I was always hungry when I was vegan and I could I could eat a jar of peanut butter in a day which not healthy, not recommending it, but they did. Definitely try to keep an eye on a bunch of, you know, vitamins and minerals specifically protein and b12 which people become deficient in. And what I thought was interesting was we're always
taught it beat. Of deficiency takes years to develop and I developed a B12 deficiency, less than two years in, you know, we're taught, it's 56 years without animal products, but no, it, it hit me pretty quickly. And that's with supplementation. So, I was not doing intermuscular injections, I was doing sublingual and, you know, not taking it every day as much as I could, but I thought I was taking enough where it would be a while. But I definitely, Flipped B12 deficiency pretty quickly.
So is there like, I don't know, I feel like there's so many supplements out there for a vegan based diet, that kind of minimizes that yet. Even in spite of all those supplements, you feel like so many people are having these deficiencies. Like, is there, is there any way to like really hedge your bets, and make sure you're doing it right? You know, I think it takes. It takes a lot of planning and skill with someone who is qualified. To assess the nutritional status
of foods. And what I think people forget is just because a certain food has however, much of this vitamin or that mineral or protein, that does not mean your body is able to absorb and utilize it. And I think that's the tricky part just because you're eating all of this plant-based protein or getting, you know, your B12 supplements how much is your body actually absorbing and
utilizing is a complete lie. Lee different amount and that is it's such an individual concept to that there isn't a one-size-fits-all. So it does take a lot of testing and a lot of planning and you really have to stay on top of it and getting your levels checked frequently and being in tune with how you feel and they think and it's goes with with every type of diet, people kind of get tunnel vision and they want to believe that the diet they're doing is perfect and working.
For them and they tune out some of the red flags. That could be signaling that there is a problem. Totally, totally. So when you switch from that, to a Paleo Approach and you started incorporating meet again. Did you notice like a pretty Sudden Change with the introduction of meat? Yes, I think chicken was kind of the Gateway started with chicken.
The remember thinking it was the most satisfying meal I had had in years and after that led to To fish and then in red meat following, but my energy and my moods improved right away. It's a, that was the biggest thing. And I was, like, I mentioned before when I was vegan, I was anxious and depressed, and just very irritable all the time.
And within, I don't know, it wasn't long within maybe a month or two of incorporating meet back in Irene to off of my antidepressant to, which was a big deal for me. You know, I hated saying I was on antidepressants and I felt better without them and it was just really mind opening that adding meat and just I think a lot of it was the fat omega-3 specifically that it really helped stabilize mood and energy with all this, you know, evidence in research.
That points to the benefits of having a meat in your diet and just like the anecdotal evidence, like what you've experienced yourself. Is it, is it still kind of crazy to like hear all the medical recommendations of minimizing meat intake? Yes, I mean, it really is, it's a very frustrating part of my job and there is some basis. I mean, we don't know all the long-term effects of a very meat. Heavy diet like a carnivore
diet. I do think there's a lot of benefit but it's the ultimate Elimination Diet, but I do, Definitely have some concerns still with the amount of saturated fat for people with genetic varieties. For example, with the apoe4 alleles and a bow, a to, there are some variations in how people metabolize saturated fat that I, you know, would maybe pause for these people before saying, you know, eat red meat Ribeyes every day of the week. But for in general, I do think it's safe to eat.
That fat in certain quantities in some people are completely fine and can tolerate much higher limits but I think in general chicken seafood, red meat should be part of everyone's diet for the bio available nutrients and the nutritional benefit that they comes with eating these Foods. I feel like there's a especially a benefit to people with autoimmune issues from the the sake of it being such an elimination that you're kind of Wiping the Slate clean.
Let your body have a, you know, a fresh start. So, to speak with with people that are totally healthy, don't have the autoimmune issues, are they, are they missing anything per se from not having the vegetation? I mean, I'm definitely Carnival rest. I'm not hardcore carnivore, but I eat predominantly meat-based for sure. But I mean, am I losing anything by not having ample amounts of vegetation?
Yeah, so that's a that's a great question and definitely Only an area of debate and I think what people will jump at you first with is fiber. They're going to tell you, you need fiber for proper digestion and health and say it e. And if you're in ketosis and you're producing beta-hydroxybutyrate I don't believe there's a need for fiber in the diet. And the reason is fiber is fermented in the colon and it produces a substance called Burek acid and that kind of nourishes the Walls of the
colon. And when you're in ketosis and producing these ketones, the beta-hydroxybutyrate and you're getting a very similar substance and it's believed that the butyrate is going to serve the same function as the butyric acid, that's the product of fermentation of fiber. So I do think that you are okay without fiber in your diet. Yes. There is going to be alterations of the gut microbiome but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just different with dietary changes.
If you're eliminating plant food, or going more, meat-based you're going to have a change in the gut microflora so we you know this is an area of a lot of research right now and we don't know what the long-term effects are going to be.
But it doesn't seem to have a detrimental effect right now at least in the short term and they can even have Positive benefit and they think there is a lot of long-term benefit to having low amounts of insulin preventing insulin resistance, having the anti-inflammatory benefits of ketones as a specifically in terms of heart disease and neurological disease. So I don't at this point, I can't say with 100% certainty.
But from the research that I've done, I don't think you're missing anything by eliminating plants. From the diet, they think it's a personal preference right now and it depends on the individual and that the genetics and their genetic makeup and just their taste and preference. But in general, it's an individual feel and I think you're going to get great nutrition. If you eat a nose-to-tail carnivore diet.
Yeah, I agree. I feel like with any any major switch in your primary fuel source, you're going to have something like that gesture of rebound. So, to speak, I mean whether You're switching from you know a lot of vegetation to plant our to carnivore or the other way around or even if you're like you know, ki do. But eating a lot of salads and everything Stone. Then you try to go in dabble in carnivore. There's like a two to four week adaptation.
Period. Would like your your gut has to get readjusted and your bathroom usage. May be all over the place during that adaptation period. But once you equalize I feel like it pretty much levels out. Yeah, I agree with that and it's true. It's just people getting nervous like, oh, it's been a couple days. My digestion is off. It's going to take longer than a couple days to adapt. I think that's a great time frame to 24 weeks and give it a solid two to four weeks, and it's going to be a little
different from for everyone. It depends on what your gut microbiome is to begin with and what your diet was like, before you made the dietary changes to, I think what a lot of people do notice right away when they eliminate more plant food, is that Bloating goes down which is a nice benefit. So you talk to patients who say you know every time I eat I just feel bloated and distended and you take away the fiber the grains and plant food and that goes away pretty quickly.
Yeah. Feel like that's like raw food raw vegetables. I mean if you're consuming a bunch of raw plant foods like that's all going to get fermented in the gun and you're going to have the gases that come as a result of that, which is what People feel so bloated. Whereas if you're if you are going to eat vegetables like me personally I always try and Veer towards something that's you know already fermented like a kimchi or sometimes sauerkraut or something. It that way.
It's not going to have near the fermentation process inside of me. Yeah it makes a huge difference and just going back to where I was in my early 20s, you remembered not eating all day long. If I wanted to feel Slim in a dress that night just because I do if I ate something anything, I was going to feel bloated. Didn't more distended and it's great.
Now, like once you figure out that it's just the the plant-based food that's going to cause that if you can go ahead and eat eggs or chicken or beef that day and be fine, not have to starve yourself and still feel great. When you go out that night, yeah, totally, it's liberating. Yes, it really is. What about like a lot of carnivores. They talk about plants as
anti-nutrients basically. So they've got the like, the oxalates For example, in this vegetation, they not they have nutrients in them, but because of these anti-nutrients, it's basically causing more of a net negative effect than a positive effect, but you're taking right. Yeah. So oxalates are getting a lot of attention. These days and Sally Norton. If you're familiar with her work sheet is a great resource when it comes to oxalates.
So we always talk about the benefits and nutrition of plant-based foods, but yeah, there's just Much attention to the anti-nutrients and the whole premise of antioxidants and getting this you know, benefit from plants. Is the concept of for me, sis is where you're putting low-grade stress on the body and it sort of rebuilds itself and comes back stronger, or it causes production of the body's internal antioxidant glutathione.
But people ignore the fact, or they don't understand the concept of The family antioxidants work that you know you are placing some stress on the body plants are not don't want to be eaten their whole premise, they want to reproduce and replicate like humans. That's their biology. So they have these built-in components to distract their predators or poison their predators or other animals that
want to eat them if you will. So their biology and their Their operating system is very different than the human operating system. So there are anti-nutrients and chemical reactions that occur when we ingest plants that are going to cause this low-grade stress on the body and there's varying levels of toxicity or anti-nutrients that come along with that and there's also phytic acid which binds to other vitamins and minerals and prevents their absorption.
That's going back to Talking about the bioavailability in these plant-based Foods just because the plant has on the label for, you know, on the package that it has 70 percent of the daily. Recommended amount of iron that does not mean you're going to absorb all of that and that's largely because of the phytic acid and some of the anti-nutrients that go in it. Gotcha, gotcha.
There. I mean, with, with animal products there's like I mean there Finally, some had created better than the others, but I feel like generally speaking, a poor quality Animal product is still going to have much less of a net negative effect than a high quality plant product. I mean, I may be wrong in assuming that but I feel like there's just a lot more - to be had with all these anti-nutrients and and acids and whatnot. That could be somewhat poisonous.
No, I agree with that. And I completely agree with that and there is, I do have a lot of concerns with farming. Practices in this country specifically and there's varying levels of quality of meat and seafood. But in general I do think even a lower Quality Meat is going to be more beneficial than a lot of the plant-based food.
I think, one thing that I would definitely caution people against is like the heavy metals and lot of the Seafoods depending on where you're getting in sourcing these fish, for instance, I used to live in Spokane, Washington. That the river was so, you know, bad with heavy metals that you were not allowed to eat more than one fish a year.
Wow, easy. But I think that like stuff like that causes, you know, there to be a frowned upon issue with Justin of meat, but I feel like if you're conscious of that, you know, knowing where your food comes from, you can mitigate any of that on the front end and not to worry about it.
Yeah, that that's very true. And this is a little out of my area of expertise but there are Are binders and and other supplements, you can take to help bind the heavy metals and toxins like spirulina and other sources to help mitigate some of that effect. But again that's that's a little out of my scope. I know dr. Mercola has done a lot of work with that and would be a good resource. But yeah sourcing sourcing is important and especially with Plastics in the oceans and
things as well. I think people have that option. To buy higher quality Meat and seafood. It would definitely be to their benefit. Totally agree. Totally agree. So, so what is your area of expertise as it relates to the medical field. So I'm a board certified, family physician, and I'm actually studying to take a second board exam in obesity medicine, which will be in February. And I plan to take my practice and two full-time, Barry attrition and helping people, man.
Manage the disease of obesity and all the comorbidities that come with that specifically diabetes and hypertension and just really want to kind of dive into lifestyle and nutrition and help help people get the proper education and diet to help manage their disease. I feel like working in Family Medicine like you do currently and you'll probably see the same thing when you transition to the bariatric surgery and whatnot
our bariatric. Honey, do you notice like just certain patterns like pattern recognition? And a lot of the people you've worked with, like, with regard to Lifestyle habits, or nutritional Habits. Like, You know, people that are much healthier to, to be a certain way versus those that aren't healthy. All tend to follow a similar pattern, like what are some of those patterns you recognize? Yeah.
I mean, there's it's very basic and what a used to take for granted as common knowledge, you realize people are still very unsure about. And one of the biggest things is sugar-sweetened Beverages. And in Family Medicine, I deal with a lot of pediatric patients, and adults. And it's shocking to see how many people are still drinking juice and soda is their main form of liquid during the day. There's one thing I would like to promote quickly is get those
out of your diet completely. There's no no need for sugar-sweetened beverages. Other things I notice is people who exercise and specifically lift weights tend to pay a lot
more attention to their diet. And what I do really worried about a sarcopenia which is decreasing muscle mass especially as patient's age and I think establishing a good resistance, training program, weight lifting, or just bodyweight exercises early on is a, it's a great thing to do, but In general, I think one patients. Start one aspect and if it's working out or trying to change their diet, the rest kind of follows. It's like they start seeing some success and then they want to
take it to the next step. But, you know, in general, the healthier people, they work out regularly, they do some sort of strength training, they don't have sugar, sweetened beverages, they limit fast food. Those are kind of the big things. Yeah. And I never cease to be amazed at how How much people drink
these sugar-sweetened beverages? My brother is his bad about it, he he's gotten better, but he used to drink these Fanta drinks and I didn't know it was a fan, what a Fanta was and I looked at the label in one serving is like, 79 grams of sugar. Like it blew my mind. Isn't that correct? And there's people that drink several of them a day and kids specifically, it's, it's crazy. I mean, you'll have someone who
will lose 10 pounds. Pounds in a month, just from eliminating soda from their diet. Well what I understand is there's so many Alternatives like Z via you have your drink Z via I have not tried it but I I've heard good things about it. Yeah I mean it's just it's basically water that's sweetened with stevia but there's like literally a z via alternative for every popular soft drink either. I just like a Coke version.
A yeah, you know, Cola, I mean there's there's everything and it's like to me. I mean, I don't have a very well. I'm not a connoisseur of soft drinks by any means, but I can't tell a difference. I don't feel like I'm missing out, so I feel like that would be an easy, easy switch. It would make such a huge impact. Yeah, and I think that's a great Point. These little switches do add up and I'm not a huge advocate for artificial sweeteners.
But Stevia is one where I personally drink it on an occasion. I love grabbed Wolf's Lament The electrolyte supplement with Steve via in it. That's kind of my thing right now. But yeah, a lot of the artificial sweeteners. I think have have some side effects that are going to be unpleasant. But Stevia is the exception, I think that's a great alternative for sugar. Yes. Davey among friend of like this pretty pretty same for the most part for sure.
Yeah. And you're absolutely right about, you know, people like that train and work out because when you do that, like when I first started working, I didn't I didn't give any thought to nutrition when I thought the it. This was on the training but you start following a healthier lifestyle and then it just branches and buds into so many different other aspects and nutrition is bound to follow. Because you want to maximize any of the work that you're putting in the gym. And I don't know.
It's like there's a lot of misinformation out there in the gyms fears, like the locker room, talk is often filled with bad nutrition advice. But nutrition advice is often times better than no nutritional advice. Even if it's misinformed and there's just so many people out there that have no No common knowledge to like the basics of what even a macro nutrient is like that, that's Greek to some
people. Yeah, it is it what I really like to talk to my diabetic patients, about is limiting their carbohydrates specifically. And this isn't even getting into Kido. This is just, let's decrease your carbohydrate consumption and some of the questions that I get, what we would you and I would probably be like, of course, that's a carbohydrate. They really don't know. You're asking about price,
they're asking about oatmeal. They're asking about whole-grain bread and you realize you really have to start with the basics with people and explain what a carbohydrate is, what a protein is, what a fat is, how your body is going to respond to that in terms of insulin. And it's just, it's amazing how little nutritional information people get. It's kind of funny because like you and I we are in in the Cheetos fear. Like we're, we're rubbing shoulders with people that are making waves.
We're making waves like we know a lot of we have a pulse basically on on the keto space but like for us I feel like we've we've been here for a while. We've kind of questioned whether or not we're at the peak of it all whether it's starting to start going down, but then you start hearing and talking to people that just don't really know much about nutrition at all. And it's like, wow, there's so much work that we have to do still so much. Work.
I know it's great. You have these platforms such as Instagram and Facebook, where you can collaborate with like-minded people who are just as excited about keto and having benefits and the branch out into carnivore.
And it's great. And you almost forget about the other segments of the population, which is the majority that have no idea what this is about kind of my next project going into 2020. I really want to help clear up the myth of Quito, just being a fad diet and the concept of dirty keto, which has become kind of my pet. Peeve voted right, that they can eat all these keto snacks and Alternatives and he do cookies and baked goods and bacon and butter. And it's it's not all about just
being in ketosis. It's the nutrition that comes from the foods that you're eating as well for Optimal Health. And the I think there's a lot of work to be done still Yeah, it is. That's a good point because like, there's so much I mean, like he knows gotten so big now within our Circle that it's like, people don't know. They they feel like they can kind of it's like it's almost reverse rebounded in a way.
Like you go super strict into it and then you start to like loosen up and I don't know, some people go, even stricter and some people loosen up and become incredibly lacks with it, but I feel like the whole dirty keto thing is is really popular. The right now as well. And I've never really been one. I mean I feel like dirty Quito is better than a bunch of processed carbs. Yeah. But I don't necessarily think that. I mean a lot of people are doing dirty keto know better. You know. Right.
And you know I have a it isn't even a true patient. It's a actually one of my nurses husband's. I've been helping on the side, he's a diabetic and he has some weight that he wants to lose. And so we've been talking to him about Quito and he's doing a phenomenal.
Nominal job and he's lost some weight but within a few days we got him off of his insulin and his hemoglobin A1c has gone down and his blood work just looks incredible but he's doing a dirty keto version and I find myself unable to argue with him right now because he's made such good progress. I'm hoping eventually we can kind of get him into some more nutrient dense foods but yeah even even dirty keto people Are having improvements in their metabolic Health, which is hard
to argue against? Yeah, I feel like it's a good, I mean, if it's a stepping stone, then I'm all for. Like when I first started keto I was you know I was going through all the different recipe books and learn how to make keto cheesecake and keto like all these look like me was basically but now I feel like the longer I've been adapted and become you know self-sufficient with my nutrition. It's like I don't desire that anymore.
I don't create any my don't feel like Missing out or sacrificing by not having it. So I don't have to make some kind of look like me or that has subpar ingredients. I was the exact same way I definitely started as more of a dirty keto and transitioned into a cleaner version and noticed I felt better and they think some of sometimes I'll still get sugar Cravings. It's definitely not.
As much as one. I was eating a plant-based diet where I crave sugar every day but a all notice I'm more in tune with with cravings when I eat a healthier keto based diet and it's usually because I'm deficient in something else, I'm not getting enough protein, I didn't get enough fat. I'm dehydrated, I'm tired. I'm stressed. Feel like it allows you to become more in sync with your cravings and your appetite and you learn to trust your appetite again. Totally agree.
I do feel like you know, whenever I do have like the keto sweets or whatnot, I notice an increase. Recent and cravings for more sweets. That like again, not near as bad as what I was eating carbs. But I started out as an uptick in my desire for those foods and I feel like I'd be Keen to get your opinion on this, but there's a lot of, you know, sweeteners that are are like they have a zero glycemic index score. So they're not really raising your blood glucose at all.
And I've tested and not seen an increase in blood glucose, but I'm curious to see if it would result in increase in blood insulin, because you're still sending a signal to your brain that you are ingesting. Something sweet. I'm assuming it's going to result in an insulin response, right? Yeah. And that is the million-dollar question.
And what we don't often hear about when people are talking about the glycemic index, just because your glucose is not raising, that doesn't tell us anything about what insulin is doing. To keep your glucose level stable. And that's also how people kind of miss the early warning signs of pre-diabetes and diabetes because They could have normal blood sugar levels, but that could be requiring a massive amount of insulin to keep it normal and just these artificial sweeteners.
Maybe, your glucose is staying stable, but it could be all like, could be spiking your insulin regardless. So a lot of them I do stay away from, except for Stevia and monk fruit, like you said, but I think you also raised a good point about, you know, if I do have Some keto treats their snacks. If I eat them too often, I start to Crave sweetness again and they just have to stop it.
You know, I think that's that's a slippery slope especially for people who have had a carbohydrate addiction or are trying to lose weight and trim down. And a lot of that, a lot of these people who are trying to lose weight, they do have some degree of insulin resistance. They do need to be careful with artificial sweeteners. Are you familiar? This concept of insulin resistance due to long-term get attention.
Basically, you remove carbohydrates from your diet for so long that your body fails to know how to function in the presence of carbohydrates. And I've heard a lot of people talk about this lately and I'm just curious to know if you've if you've seen much research on that, I haven't done a lot of research on it, but from what I have done and this is kind of a normal physiological and That station just like when you're transitioning into ketosis, there's an Adaptive phase.
It's going to take a while for your body to efficiently, use ketones. And sometimes it takes a few months for people. And when you eliminate carbohydrates from your diet, your body is going to have an adverse response initially, and then you're going to adapt again. So, if you've been carnivore for several years and then you start adding some carbohydrate back into your diet, you might have an elevated.
Added glucose response, you might have some signs of insulin resistance initially, but then after a couple months, it does go back to Baseline and it does go back down, and it doesn't even take a couple months for some people. Sometimes it's a couple weeks to adapt. So I'm really not concerned about that. I think it's a normal response and there's an adaptation face and in your body's going to self-correct, don't think it's going to lead to diabetes or permanent insulin resistance.
Any type of long-term consequence? Yeah that's been my thought towards the whole idea. I think you know like like you said with anything that's going to be an adaptation period And I feel like since glucose is a very efficient fuel source like your body Burns, it very readily. It's not going to take even as long to get back into use and that is it does for ketones to become efficiently use. So I feel like Peoples eye. People have legitimately swayed away from the keto diet for fear
of becoming insulin. Austin, which is the most backwards thing I've ever heard in my life. Yes, I agree with that. I think the best, you know, I do like the concept of metabolic flexibility, and being able to use whatever substrate, your body has available for energy. And with that being said, I do think it's not a bad idea to take small periods away from being completely carb-free. I'm not saying that needs to be on a weekly basis or even a
monthly basis. Door does that mean indulging and cookies and chips and cake but bringing back you know maybe some sweet potato or a healthier source of carbohydrate. Even if it's 100, 150 grams for a few days, making sure your body is properly utilizing glucose without these spikes.
I think that's it. That's a fairly reasonable thing to do to keep yourself metabolically flexible but if you don't, I don't think it's going to cause any problem and They think staying in ketosis is one of the best things to do to keep your insulin levels though and prevent insulin resistance. Yeah, I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate with you because I am definitely on the side of just strict keto. I mean I don't say suggest that everybody does that.
But me personally, I've been straight keto for years and I don't feel any desire or need to introduce carbs. I mean, like metabolic flexibility for me, is not something that I feel like I need because I doubt I'll be in Addition where I am forced to eat carbs. I feel like there's an abundance of food and that day and age we live in and I don't have to resort to carbs. Do you think that we kind of talked about this already? Like there's not really any long-term disadvantage to
staying straight. Key to that, you're aware of, not that I'm aware of, no, and there's plenty of people for medical reasons such as epilepsy or they have a glute one transporter deficiency that do stay in Quito. Isis without going into metabolically flexible period where they're utilizing glucose again and they think that's fine. And you know, it's it's the concept of Bio individuality. If you do best in ketosis I have not seen any evidence or research to suggest you need to
break that. It's all individual preference at this point. And I think as far as a health goes, I have seen no no reason to say you need to break break out of ketosis. Totally agree. Totally agree. I want to dive into the what's on the horizon for you. So you're getting another Board Test going through the bariatric program. So what does that entail? Exactly, right. So, there's so most people are familiar with bariatric surgery and getting the either sleeve or banding or gastric bypass.
Yes. And within the past few years especially with the growing obesity epidemic, there's become more of a need for non-surgical. Berry attrition, 's that help manage. Not only the surgical patients, but all of the patients that are trying to fight obesity in a non-surgical way. And that's kind of what I want. That's not kind of what I want to focus on. That is exactly what I want to focus on where I'm kind of
deviating from the norm. Is that a Of the focus for non-surgical Bariatrics is on weight loss medications that we do have some, some great medications that have come out, but like with any other medication, there's a lot of side effects and adverse reactions and possible complications that can arise from them. And in my preparation for the exam, and all the conferences and seminars, feel like we're just dropping the ball on lifestyle and nutrition. Yes, it's mentioned for a bit
and it's just not not the focus. And part of the reason is just the structure of the medical system. We're really being forced to see as many patients as possible in a day and sometimes we have 5 or 10 minutes to spend with the patient. And as you know that is that doesn't even skim. The surface for a proper amount of time to talk to someone about overhauling their diet and
lifestyle. So I am hoping to get this board certification out of the way in February and then I really want to have a more unique weight loss Focus where I can hopefully spend a decent amount of time with patients on a regular basis, teaching them more about lifestyle and nutrition and different options for them. And if needed, you know, we can do the more traditional medications to help assist and stuff by really, really want to focus.
The nutrition and lifestyle and that's going to be a bit of a challenge and traditional hospital just because the pressures from hospital Administration and everything. So hopefully, I can get my own Clinic started at some point and going to do things my way and hopefully achieve some success for patients. Yeah, I mean, that would be
awesome. I feel like I've talked with several doctors in the space and one of their largest frustrations is They've got all this knowledge and experience with you know how keto can be a healthy alternative to what people are doing. But I mean you cannot Som something that doesn't have. That's not literate in this nutritional protocol. I mean, you cannot expect them to walk away after a five-minute conversation and have any direction whatsoever, that's applicable.
I mean you have to actually sit down and give some serious time to them and the way everything structure now. I mean, it's just not feasible and it's frustrating. So, So I can see where the frustration comes from because it's a broken system. I mean you're basically penalized if you're not seeing X-Men number of patients and the way the world Works around money.
I mean, hospitals are structured so that they can prescribe medication and see a lot of, a lot of patients that's just not really a recipe for a successful nutritional education towards. Yeah, that's it. Exactly made. It takes two minutes to write a prescription for someone.
It takes an hour to properly. Their nutrition and start to pave the way for Change. And unfortunately, in medicine, you're not paid for, for quality of time spent, you're paid to do procedures and you're paid by volume. So the hospital Administration, they want you to pump out a lot of patients every day and that's just not conducive to the the type of work I want to do right now. You feel like there's a like a bubble so to speak in the
Medical realm, that could bust. Like when you look at prescription drugs for instance and the cost of prescription drugs and the rising obesity epidemic as an example, I mean, the drugs are getting ridiculous. I mean people are not able to afford these forever and the insurance. I mean, I feel like there's got to be, there's got to be a Tipping Point at some at some point in the near future. I would imagine. Yes, it's going to implode. It's just a matter of time.
The costs are completely out of control. all there's really nothing being done to get that contained medications are out of control co-pays deductibles, it's going to burst and what's that is we have such great technology and Innovation and resources in this country but accessing them and providing quality Care is still lacking compared to other models in different countries and it's just it's incredibly frustrating for It's for providers and everyone in between and I think
it is it's just a matter of time before a major overhaul is coming and I think unfortunately it's gonna take some bad outcomes before before it changes. Yeah, film, almost pessimistic for saying it but I feel like we're so stubborn and money-driven as a nation really that we're not going to stop doing what we're doing, as long as we're making money. So it's like, it almost has to implode and For us to open our eyes and recognize.
There's got to be a better way. Yes, I actually share the same sentiment. It's unfortunate and I don't know how to change it sooner or for the better but just the whole landscape of medicine. If you kind of look at the rising cost of Health Care in the past, couple decades, you'll see on the graphs at the same time, there's been this huge right. Eyes in the kind of middle management, all these administrative positions and
it's just insane. There's people that have never treated patients with business backgrounds, that are now dictating how doctors and other health care providers are doing their jobs and it's just crazy to me that people, without any patient care experience or telling doctors how Have to treat patients. How many patients they have to see a day and telling them to conform to all these, you know, guidelines and Norms. When there's every patient is different. You can't treat one patient the
same as another. And you think that's, that's a huge part of the problem too. We have to get the business aspect out of medicine again. And I as you said it's also money-driven now and once people start knowing how to make money from it, they're not they're not going to relent that power. I think it's It's really gonna take a major overhaul to change
this. Yeah, well what I'd love to see personally just has an individual is, I mean the way the way human psychology works at least at least for me is like there has to be a risk reward system in place, you know. So like for insurance, for instance, you know, I think it makes sense for people that are very healthy, you know, health-conscious nutrition oriented to, to see a benefit from an expense stamp. Towards their health insurance.
Like they should, they shouldn't have to pay the same amount that somewhere that has no care to learn. No, no self-discipline. No. I mean, literally means fast food every day. Like they're all lumped into the same equation and then charge the same rate. And it's like, let's incentivize
people indirectly by money. Like if money is the driving Factor, let's incentivize them to save more money, by giving them better rates if they actually take care of themselves and put put the best foot forward to learn about this. I love that concept. I really do and it's you're right, it's not fair that people who are taking care of themselves are paying the same price for those who really aren't. The only thing about that model
that makes me a little nervous. It's who's defining, what is healthy, especially in this day and age, where there's so much. Bad all between different diet forms like vegan versus carnivore. And you know, what's the Chance of cholesterol. I worry that. Government guidelines are going to mandate, what's healthy and what's not and you know if you eat meat that's going to be considered unhealthy or something like that. It makes me a little nervous as to who's going to dictate what's
healthy. And what's not, it's true, it's true. We seem to like open up our own board certified keto specific Sanctuary with their own keto Insurance, their own keto doctors, their own key to Health Care System would just be like, total, like was just ostracize herself or anybody else. Hey, I'm all for that having my own keto Clinic. As is my dream?
That's that's my goal someday. Hopefully in the next few years I can I can make it work and give it cheap rates to people who are complying with the keto lifestyle will shoot. If we can do that, then we can just lead by example and hopefully others. You know that are not in belief at the front. End will say that we're doing
something right and suit, right? But I think that is a great way to control costs to. I mean The money that people spend on medications for their diabetes and all the complications that come from it and other lifestyle diseases. It's mind-boggling. That's where you're really going to make a dent in health care costs. If we can get these diseases, under control through lifestyle and it's just, you're, I think you're right incentivizing.
That is is going to be a great step in the right direction. I mean looking at like type 2 diabetes as an example. I mean, I don't You know what, the average cost of insulin is like for, you know, an average type 2 diabetic spending on insulin a day. Like what that breaks down to is it like a, like a public figure this known? Oh, you know what? I don't know, that's a great question. I should know that and I think it's probably dependent on the type of insulin.
If they're on like a glargine plus this Pro like short-acting long-acting combination. I don't know, but I'm sure it's not cheap. Quite sure it's not cheap and that's in addition to probably the metformin that they're on and maybe another oral agent, typically insolence, kind of The Last Resort. Like once you exhaust all the oral medications then you go on to insulin and by then you're already having other complications you having retinopathy. You're having enough for apathy
neuropathy. Just all types of complications where you're seeing three or four different Specialists on top of that. Yeah, and the solution is just more insulin. Yes, it's isn't. That crazy? Just it's so backwards. When you think about the physiology, you're treating this insulin resistance and lack of insulin sensitivity with more insulin, instead of getting rid of the culprit such as carbohydrates that are the reason people need insulin. Well, I'm excited for you to roll out.
This this Clinic of your own. Do you have like a rough timeline on when this is forecasted? So, If all goes according to plan, I'm hoping once I get my board exam in February, hopefully work in a bariatric clinic for a year or so, can I learn the lay of the land and get get all my resources together? Hopefully in the next couple of years? We will we will see that might be a bit aggressive but I've got some good ideas going and some context I'm working with I'm
currently in Chicago right now. Now, and I think it's going, it's just not a doctor friendly atmosphere and in Cook County here. So it's going to probably require a move as well, which I'm fine with, but I definitely want to get this going in the next couple years. Come to Arkansas. I think I'm the only keto person in Arkansas. We need it, are you? Hey, I'm I'll go wherever wherever I could make this happen. I will go. All right, all right. Well cool deal, Chris and I'm
excited for you. I really am where can people go to find out more So you can follow along. So right now my main presence is on Instagram and I'm at doctoring keto and my website is getting underway. Hopefully I'll be able to put more attention into that after this board exam is over. And that's also doctoring. He do.com. But Instagrams, the the best place to get in touch with me right now. Awesome! Are you going to any of the conference's coming up? I am.
I am going to be at low carb. USA in Boca Raton in mid-January and then right after that, I'll be going to the metabolic Health Summit in Long Beach. I think that's like the first week in February and then I want to get to Quito con this year. I think that's in June. So those are the big ones on my radar right now. Well I will be those as well so I will look forward to meeting you in person.
Yeah, that'll be great. Until next time Chris you have a good one and let me know if there's ever anything I can do for you. Thank you so much. It was great talking to you. Likewise take care.