Well, hello ladies and gents. Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com. Today I've got special guest Christian Unger on the podcast. Last time I had him on the show it was in 2019. He had just finished his master's program and he's actually going to be defending his dissertation for his PhD in two days. So super stoked for him. There. We dive deep into some of the research he's been working on regarding sex steroid hormones in the muscle tissue and how that can implicate hypertrophy.
So very interesting stuff there. We also talk about parenting a little bit. He's got a baby on the way due in February, so I'm super stoked for him there. We talked about HRT and TRT specifically, both in males and females. So very interesting information and insight in that department as well. And we also just talked about what is going on with people majoring in the minors right now as it pertains to nutrition, sleep, you know, supplementation, like what do
people need to focus on? What do they need to disregard? What do they need to, you know, put their attention to details? So very enjoyable conversation. I've got a lot of respect for Christian. He's an incredibly smart individual and I'm just excited for all that he's working on and has in the pipeline. So without further delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the podcast conversation with Christian Unger and we are live Christian. How are you brother? I'm doing well. How are you Robert?
I'm good man. I'm good. When was the last time we chatted? I had you on the podcast, but it's been shoot man, it's probably been over 2 years now, right? I I think it was actually 2019, 2019, man, that's crazy. And then you had AI saw you at a conference, I think it was the Keto Summit in Nebraska. I guess probably 2019 too, right? No, I don't think I'm the last time I, it was Keto continue like 2019 that was that was probably the last time I saw you. Yeah. Gotcha, gotcha.
And you've had all kinds of things happening in your world since then. I saw you've got a baby on the way due in February. That's awesome. Congrats there. Yes, the little boy on the way. I'm excited to be a father. That's obviously the most important thing I'll ever do in life, so I definitely looking forward to that. It's the best man. Like, I didn't know what to expect, you know, becoming a dad myself. But our sons about a year and a
half now, and it's the best man. Like like him saying Dada and looking up at me and smiling like there's literally nothing that beats that. I definitely agree there because like I always like to the people who are like unsure, like nervous, I'm like the if the goal is to be like the the best possible father and mother you can be because whatever you do
like work or life like. How you raise your child is going to be the longest lasting thing you ever accomplished, because how you treat your child and raise them will impact how they raise their children. And it's just transgenerational compared to whatever I do with work or like, which is completely meaningless in the grand scheme. Yeah, I think that is 100% the right way to look at it. Like you are imparting some generational impact when you parent a child. And I really try to be very
proactive with that. Like, I'm listening to a bunch of parenting books on mindset and stoicism and subscribing to, like, you know, fathering newsletters, and we're trying to figure out what we want to do from an educational standpoint. All things that I never really spent much time focusing on prior to having a kid. But now that I have a kid, it's like, now this is a paramount concern for me right now. It yeah, I definitely understand that.
And I also think like there's a lot more resources for mothers as compared to like fathers, like there's there's not a whole lot of. Information out there are like leaders in the, I guess the field discussing that, but there's a ton of motherly stuff. So just finding the way is the the key. Yeah. And it's weird because like societal shifts have always been such that they place a lot of that parenting burden on the
mother. Like the father's just been the one expected to go to work, be the breadwinner and then kind of have like a not a hands off approach, but like less of an informed approach. And I've started to see a lot more content coming out around fathering, which I'm excited about because I think that is huge. Plus, I mean you look at all the statistics on how many, you know, single parent homes there are nowadays, how many kids are growing up without a father. I mean that's definitely a
massive problem. So anything we can do to get that shifted in the correct direction is going to be key. Yeah, if if anybody's ever really interested, go just go look at that data and like the increased risk of.
On behavior, the future outcomes for the child like the, the fatherless households like that, it's almost unbelievable like how important that is and I'm glad that's like changing compared to probably 40-50 years ago where the the husband just went to work all day and then that's about it As compared to like now we're seeing more involvement like how the important of the father etcetera.
Yeah. Now this 100% this is kind of not not even what I thought we were going to talk about to begin with, but I'm glad we're going here. Are there any particular resources or books or anything that you're diving into right now in preparation? Off the top of my head right now, no. I've just been more focused on like the just the the baby, the like the health of the baby, like the the short. I have more short term outcomes. I'll definitely have to.
I'll definitely transition over the next 6 to 8 months is especially once once he arrives. Well, taking care of the health of the baby before he arrives is so critical to a lot of people. Don't give any thought to that, but like the the epigenetic effect of what you're doing for your health, what your wife's doing for her health in pregnancy like that has so much more profound impact than people realize. So the fact that you're even thinking about that is is
awesome, man. Yeah, they're like for from a data perspective like the the children of insulin resistant or type 2 diabetics, they are already at an increased likelihood of becoming insulin resistant and having type 2 diabetes later in life. So like the, the important, the importance of like when. And health leading up to consumption and African and like during development is extremely important. Yeah, 100%. What is your wife's nutrition like?
Is she pretty? Well you know, all animal based or what is she doing? She eats more of a just a balanced diet. She doesn't handle low carb very well so we we just keep a very mixed diet. Probably leaning more Mediterranean but just a little bit of everything Definitely animal products. I'm. I'm. Hugely biased there, but like, I think it's vitally important to health. But we've been doing lots of the prenatal, lots of like omega-3 fish oil, EPADHA leading up to
pregnancy. So we we we've been hitting the basics there, but just overall probably just balanced nutrition, all real food though, which is the main thing. Yeah, yeah. Limiting the, the, the crap essentially. Nice. Very nice. Well, shoot, man. What what do you what do you squatting nowadays? Probably. Mid 5 hundreds I I'm actually about to start preparing to compete in powerlifting for the first time. So I got to got to get back on the the the train, getting back into it.
Nice. Well, I was just stalking you on IG man. Last I saw a clip of you doing like 635 or 655 or whatever it was and you're just a freaking beast of nature on the strength front man. So the powerlifting will be cool. Yeah, I'm. I'm looking forward to that. I would like to finally hit the the 700 squat that's been eluding me for the last five years, but I'd like to finally focus and hit it for once. What?
What's your weight right now? I'm around 2:20, but I would, I would probably like to compete powerlifting probably right closer to 200 one 98 and remind me how tall you are. I'm 5 foot 9, 5 foot nine, yeah. So you got a few inches on me. I feel like I'm withering away, man. I'm like I woke up at my new low today at 154.2. But you're also extremely lean right now. I'm a little little fluffier, yeah. Definitely different into the spectrum right now, man.
But I I like embracing each phase for what it is. I mean, there are times when I like the fluffiness, and there are times when I like the leanness. Either indefinitely is probably not ideal. Yeah. No, I I would like to drop drop a little bit like right around the.
Probably 12 to 15% body fat. That's where I probably feel the best and also blood work looks the best, so that's probably where my ideal range is. I think that's like pretty much my sweet spot in a building phase to like a 12 to 15% body fat. I still have visible ABS. I feel good about how I look. My cheeks are a little bit more
filled out than I like. I got more rounded face than I would ideally prefer, but I feel like from a overall health standpoint, 12 to 15%, you've got enough to maintain proper lab panels but also be it enough of a surplus to build more lean tissue. I think that's a good sweet spot for most guys. Yep, exactly like I that that's probably and not not even probably I I know that's where I feel the best. So I I'm working to get back there and then just building strength slowly with trying to
avoid injury. That's the plan coming up. Love it, ma'am. Love it. Well, in 2019, when we last spoke, you were in the process of getting your PhD, right? I had just finished my master's degree and now, funny enough, I'm about to defend my dissertation on Wednesday. So hopefully after Wednesday I'll be Doctor Unger. So nice, man. Well, that that's super exciting. Congrats Regardless the outcome. I'm sure you're going to do great, but that that's a massive accomplishment, man.
So huge Congrats to you there. Yes, excited to finally be done school and started applying it. Yeah, yeah. What? What's the dissertation on? My so our lab's research, we focus on sex differences in metabolism, but I my projects have mainly been revolved around sex steroids and sex steroid receptors in skeletal muscle and their importance essentially. Well, I'm excited to chat with you man, because you are a very data-driven individual.
You love getting into the weeds and I love getting into the weeds as well. I am not nearly as technically savvy as you, but I am open minded and receptive to anything you have to say. So just kind of peel the curtain back on some interesting research that you've been doing currently and just what's got you excited right now? Probably the the biggest thing that I think probably applies to most people is just the how valuable exercise is, especially
with insulin resistance. For for example, like a a single bout of exercise can improve insulin sensitivity by 40% and that's irregardless of weight loss. So like. If you're trying to lose weight but also focus on health like you can't, I would not just try to diet my way there. I I want you want to essentially combine the benefits of exercise with the weight loss to improve insulin sensitivity, your hemoglobin, A1C like basically
metabolic health. Too many people try to focus on one or the other, but it's really a a combo that drives the overall healthy phenotype. I really get frustrated when I hear people ask like what percentage of it is exercise versus nutrition. They they always want to break it up, like 50% exercise, 50% nutrition. I'm like no, no, you got to go 100% both because they're both on two different spectrums that work in symbiosis with one
another. So you just need to give both of them their well deserved attention. Yep, exactly. Because even like when I in the past when I've been training extremely hard, I like tons of volume but like just eating. Terrible. Like the outcomes weren't good. I definitely was not. My blood work was not up to par. I was heavier than I wanted to be. So like you you really need to
combine both. And I just people trying to give percentage points like if you could put exercise in a pill it would be the pill prescribed around the world. Like just the the overall benefits between mental health, especially, especially with going with where we are in society now, and then the effects on just overall health like you can't. Pass up exercise, no matter how clean you're eating and exercise like it's daunting to people
that don't exercise. Like, people that exercise regular, like you and I like it's just a part of our day as much as brushing our teeth is. But people that don't exercise and hear that word, they hear barbells, dumbbells, gym equipment. They just, like, go into a panic attack. But like if you actually distill it down to its core, the benefits of exercise can be had with a pretty minimum viable dose.
Yep, I I would completely agree and the people who are really like intimidated about it. I just start with getting a decent amount of like steps daily. Like if you don't have to go in to start running miles or going to squatting tons of weight, just start with the basics.
Like what if you look at the overall mortality data on step count, Like once you get to that 6008 thousand steps a day, 10,000, like you see it. It kind of level off like if we can if everybody just shop for like I think 8 probably 6 to 8000 a day at the just at the bare minimum like your overall health is going to drastically improve just like going for AI
to kind of quote. I think Stan efforting he really drove this like the importance of this like a walk after eating like drastically impacts like glucose levels especially if you had a higher carbohydrate meal. So I just being active throughout the day and just getting daily step like just start there and you don't have to. Go run a marathon way or Miles just getting exercise. Yeah 100%. Do you listen to many Huberman
podcast? Yes, I I him Tia a big, big fan of Post. Yeah, I've recently started listening to a lot more Huberman podcast like while I'm training as opposed to for whatever reason. When I'm in a deficit, I prefer to listen to podcasts and books when I train as opposed to music. But I've been listening to him while I train and I listened to his. He had like a six part series with Andy Galpin. Did you catch that by chance?
Yep, I I listened to that like fully and that that conversation and like everybody should listen to it no matter where you are on the the fitness spectrum like it it was like 9:50. You can't from the exercise physiologist perspective. It was fantastic. Yeah, I got a lot out of that
one for sure. There's a few things that I I don't necessarily disagree with, but I think galloping from a nutritional standpoint, listening to the nutrition podcast, it seemed like he was a little bit biased towards carbs simply because that's where most of the research has been done. Which totally makes sense. That's where the research is. But from the exercise Physiology standpoint, like I was giving that podcast out to my mom who just recently started weight
training. Because regardless, like you said, regardless of where you're at on the spectrum, hearing that information can't help but instill the importance of training. And I like how he broke it down to different formats of, you know, subjecting the body to exercise. So you've got like a strength and I approach a few component, you've got like a a velocity and you know explosiveness component and you get like an endurance
and aerobic standpoint. I feel like if people break that apart and kind of figure out how to, you know, intertwine those throughout their routine, that makes a lot of sense. Yep, and especially the. The probably I the part that's most overlooked by people is the power aspect because as we age and get older, the ability to produce force quickly just declines. It's a natural part of aging and that if you look at the data with power training and older adults like it can help prevent falls.
It just quality of life improves like training power is just as important as pranks especially with aging. It's just often it's. I believe it's underappreciated, yeah, because they were saying that power is the of the three main components. So you've got the endurance, the strength and the power. As you age, the power and explosiveness is the one that declines the quickest. Is that right? Yep, that is correct.
And you can see that with Olympic sports like the very the power oriented athletes, they're usually all younger compared to like the endurance athletes. You're most likely to win a marathon, probably in 30s forties as compared to the 2025 thirty year olds who are doing power based events. So let me ask you a selfish question here because I don't
honestly do much explosive work. Like as a bodybuilder, I'm not doing a ton of cardio or endurance work, although I have done some, you know, marathon training and stuff in the past. But most of my training is focused on hypertrophy and then kind of strength as a subset of that. But I'm not really doing much explosive work.
So if you were me and I wanted to start proactively incorporating this in my 30s, and then just continue it as I age, what would be your recommended form of training for explosiveness? To keep it. Probably just brief and simple. For upper body I love a medicine ball throw, so either chest press or rotational. And then for lower body, I really like either a box jump or just a standing broad jump. So just like having a weighted medicine ball on my chest and throwing it.
Up you can do, Yeah. Well, you can do. Basically just like a pass like just pressing straightforward but the the big one would be kind of like a rotational throw into a wall. I think that the the rotational component on that is it quite, quite good. What What kind of weighted medicine ball are you thinking? I I use 8 to 15 pounds. I I don't do it that heavy because you're you're more focused on moving it quickly essentially. Yeah. And that makes sense. Yeah.
And box jumps are good. I don't. I don't do box jumps, but I've I've always liked box jumps. Whenever I go to a gym that has a box, I'll use it. So I need to just simply get some boxes and start doing some box jumps. Yep, box jumps. And then I I love to incorporate just a standard broad jump. A lower lower risk of injury, and anybody can do it.
You just need a flat surface, and from an explosive and power output standpoint, I'm assuming that would have pretty much the same benefit of doing sprints for instance, but not near the risk of injury. Yeah, like I I love sprints and incorporating sprints. But like like you said like as as people get older and then you're not often sprinting like it, it definitely can be an injury.
You risk to a hamstring, knee, ankle, and with the box jumps, you're also going to benefit from the landing component because especially as people age, they have, I think. I don't know if it was a Tia I heard this from or somebody, but like most injuries as people age come from simply not catching themselves as they walk down the stairs or just take a step off
of something. But if you're doing box jumps and consistently landing those box jumps, that's going to build up the resilience in your knees, your ankles, your entire kinetic chain, so that you're going to be much better suited for that. Yeah, the the eccentric component and being able to control like walking downstairs, stepping off things like being able to slow down is that that is usually where people tend to
get in trouble. If you were me and your training as a bodybuilder, when would you incorporate those two movements in the workout? As a warm up or as a cooldown. I like them as a warm up, OK, personally. All right. Well, I will start doing that. I've been doing the Ben Patrick knees over toes program as a warm up and I'll just throw in the box jumps and the medicine ball throws into that as well because it doesn't take, I mean you're doing what like probably 10 to 15 reps, two or three,
four sets. I I would probably, I like kind of lower reps for explosive work. I'll do like probably in the maybe 3-3 to 8 range and then like three to four sets. OK. So you're talking like 10-15 minutes tops? Max Yeah, you you can knock it out in short, pretty short time. Yeah, that, that's good stuff. And one thing that ATT has been a big fan of is like a grip strength as a proxy for.
You know, overall health and robustness as you age and I'm trying to get my mom to just simply hold on to a bar and and dead hang basically for as long as she can. I think that would be a super good thing for people to incorporate on a regular basis. Yeah, dead hangs or just weighted carries. Everybody should probably do
something more. Weighted carries like that's that is a defining component of humans as a species, and just being able to do that and maintaining that functional strength over time is extremely important, 100% All right, so let's dive into some of your research. Specifically, So you said steroid hormones within the muscular tissue itself, correct? Yes, we we're, we look at a global like circulating sex steroids levels and tissue
level. But if a caveat is all my research is preclinical so it is in mice, so. Obviously, take that for what it's worth. It may not always translate, but that we're really focused on like sex steroids and like hormone replacement therapy. OK, I definitely want to dive into that, but I I do want to start this conversation with the caveat you made about it being in mice. So there's this huge debate right now on social media, it seems, about the validity of
research papers done in mice. You've got a certain cohort that like, won't even look at any scientific studies because they're like, oh, it's all done in mice, doesn't even apply to me. And you got other people like, no, it's 100% if it if it carries over mice, it's 100% going to be the case for humans. How should one look at research when it's done in mice in your opinion? Yeah, that that is a great question and that people people often get this wrong because it's not in.
I wouldn't say it's an either or you have to take it for what it's worth. So if you're showing something in like in a mouse like. The eventual goal for most preclinical researchers is to get that to translate to humans, like get rid from the mouse to the human.
But not all stuff does. Like for example in in my field, mice don't have a sexual hormone binding globulin, while humans do. So like that it changes how you kind of interpret, interpret sex steroid levels and also sex steroids in male mice for example, like the reference range if humans it's like. 200 nanograms per to around 1100 for mice it would be like 200 to 10,000. Like the the reference range is completely different.
So like you have to look at the whole of the evidence with like what you're like looking at. Like, I definitely wouldn't take a mouth study and just start implementing it into myself because you never know if that's going to fully translate to humans, right? Totally. You mentioned sex, hormone binding, globulin. I want to dive into that because I have always had higher levels of sex, hormone binding, globulin, and I don't know why. Maybe it's genetic. I wouldn't think it's because of
anything I'm eating. I'm pretty conscious of that. I'm not, you know, using any topical, you know, skin care products that could be a hormone disruptor. Is that something that is likely just genetic or where is that coming from? Based on. Well knowing like what you look like in your probably blood work looks like you it. I definitely wouldn't say it's diet or anything you're doing. It's probably mostly genetic, but hard to know for sure. But question what?
What is your free testosterone compared to the total testosterone? What percent Like percent of is it? I'll tell you exactly when I just get blood work done. I will tell you this though. My My testosterone has tanked since I'm so lean lately. It is crazy how much it's dropped. Yeah, being extremely lean, sub sub seven, sub 6%, you're you're not looking at a healthy hormone profile. I can. I can tell you that, 'cause I
noticed the same thing. OK, so my total testosterone is typically between 500 and 700 nanograms per deciliter. That's my normal baseline. And then on 7/17, after I'd been prepping for quite some time, it dropped down to 169.4, which is crazy though. And then I tested again on the 3rd of this month 10/3 and it went down to 86 total testosterone, which is crazy low, man. That that's that's almost, that's extremely impressive. I must say it's extremely impressive in an unimpressive
way. Yeah, yeah, definitely not good long term, but that that is very impressive, that the. The The body's compensating that much. Yeah. It it's wild though, because like a lot of the symptoms people describe when they have testosterone, that's that's low. I haven't really been experiencing like I don't have any massive drop in strength or energy or mental acuity or excitement or fulfillment in life. My libido is definitely pretty
well non existent right now. But other than that, everything else is coming along pretty good. That that's impressive. I I definitely. When I when I've been on the lower end, I definitely felt it. So, like I I'm thoroughly impressed that you're still you're you're functioning and still kicking butt in the gym. And people don't realize too, like your steroid hormones are so directly linked to your body fat levels. I mean, that's pretty much like the driver of your steroid
hormones to an extent. And I'm not really worried about it, 'cause I know that when I start eating more and put on a healthy level of body fat, those numbers will return, as they
have in the past. But that's why I'm I'm really going to try and document the significance of this reverse diet so much because people they just want to chronically be lean and diet and eat sub optimal calorie intake and they don't realize because they don't test their blood work very often how much of an impact that's truly making on them. Yeah. A lot of people just don't like another, like just message for everybody.
You you get your blood work done, like you need to know what's going on. If the prices have come down. It's not. That expensive to get a hormone panel, but it the information is invaluable and like just being that lean long term definitely is not good for sex stories. But like you said that they will come back. They will regulate back to normal. It's just very, very important that people often overlook, yeah, 100%. Anyways, I totally derailed the
question. So my, like I said, total testosterone is typically 500 to 700. Currently it's 86. My free testosterone is let's see here, When it was 700 total testosterone, my free was 51.7 PG per ML and then currently it is 8.6. So that's dropped quite a bit as well. And then my sex hormone binding globulin is normally in the 50s to 75 is the high nanomoles per liter it looks like. OK, let's see. A general like just rule of thumb for free testosterone you usually want it to be around
like 2 to 3% of total. Once you get below that that's when people can start to notice the like. The side effects of lower testosterone cause like the free testosterone is your public more the more biologically active testosterone and as we age sex hormone binding globulin goes up. So it probably is for you. It's most likely a genetic but like like you said you're you're at. Mid 80s, nineties right now, but you feel pretty good. So like, that's that's
impressive. So I wouldn't really be too concerned about your slightly elevated sexual and binding globulin. Yeah, I'm. I've never really been too concerned about it. I've had haters online. It's kind of weird, man. Like when you, when you get lean, people automatically accused you of taking steroids. And I just like, say, hey man, I'm 155 pounds right now and my testosterone's 86. I'm not taking these steroids. Yeah, yeah, but people are trolls. But I've always had like this
weird, like super small. I don't even notice it until people pointed out online. But like, I've got like a little bit of gyno in my right or in my left nipple and I'm like, man, what in the world caused it? But I think I've had it since puberty, so I'm assuming it's probably just genetic based. And I don't know, I don't really pay any money, I don't really care. But you've always got the haters that pointed out and tell you that you're taking stuff.
Yeah, it puberty it does. Often occur for young males. So like I I definitely wouldn't doubt it. I and based on your testosterone of seventy 80s, you're definitely not on TRT. Yeah, definitely not. Plus I just passed on my drug test, so I'm in the clear there. When it comes to these exogenous hormone replacement therapies that have definitely grown in popularity as of late, you know that that's a major focus of your studies right now.
What's your take on that? Like I've I've had multiple people on the podcast, both male and female talking about it. There's a it's kind of like the the Wild West right now because you've got all these clinics popping up every street corner where people seem to be able to just walk in, say, hey, I'm not feeling too great, this is my levels, Can you get me something? And then they walk out with, you know, exogenous testosterone. And for some people, they definitely could benefit from it.
So I'm not trying to, you know, short circuit them by any means, but like it seems like this is kind of unchartered territories for the masses. Yeah, it it definitely is. So disclaimer, I'm obviously not a medical doctor, but from my perspective, I think a lot of people are a lot. Well, let's start with both sexes.
A lot of men are going on when possibly they didn't need it, when they should have focused on lifestyle interventions instead of kind of covering up the underlying issues such as sleep, nutrition, exercise, etcetera. And but also there, I know I've seen a lot of people who are not. Doing enough blood work while they're on and their TRT dose is almost it's super phraseological. So you they're above 1200 nanograms per deciliter.
So like if you're doing it you need to be under the supervision of obviously a qualified Dr. in running the frequent blood work because how each individual like metabolizes testosterone is completely different like you you often have to change the dose. It's not just a here. We're going to put you on 100. 100 milligrams per week and all is good. Now you you need to frequently check because aromatization between individuals which aromatization is conversion from testosterone to estradiol.
It can be widely different. Some people can be hypermetabolizers of testosterone, hypometabolizers. So like it really you really need to monitor with frequent blood work because I think a lot of people are sitting super physiologically above what TR what I would consider TRT and what would you consider frequent enough on the blood work like every three months, every two months.
Well, if you're first starting, I would definitely recommend like like a couple, like every couple weeks to get that dose narrowed down. But from if you're on it and like you're monitoring your blood work, yeah, probably. I like every four to six months just to check on everything. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes total sense. And I feel like a lot of people, like you said, they don't realize how much their lifestyle factors can can indicate this or
dictate this. Rather, I mean, there's been times where I've been super stressed with the business and sleeps been compromised to the point where my testosterone would drop like 3 or 400 points within a week simply because I was stressed and not sleeping. And that does not mean I need to go and get exotitous hormone replacement. Yeah, a lot of people will do their blood work one time and they have no past history of, like monitoring blood work.
And they'll notice oh, I'm low T and then immediately jump to TRT when in reality they needed to take more of a holistic approach and address the stress, address the sleep, address the nutrition
and exercise 100%. So for people that are taking a proper adequate dose, monitoring their blood work on a regular basis and maintaining physiological levels of a healthy total testosterone or free testosterone, and they're not having any issues with aromatizing that correctly, what is happening endogenously with their natural production, are they going to experience any adverse effects downstream? Are they going to be down regulating their endogenous
production? If they're simply maintaining normal physiological levels as the age like, how does that pan out? Yes. So if you are on it chronically you are going to get endogenous suppression of LH and FSH which signals to the testes to produce testosterone as well as sperm production. So if you are on it long enough you will potentially experience a natural shutdown and then the ability to get that back can vary individual to individual. You could either.
Even just come off and immediately comes back or have to use HCG, clomiphene, HMG to recover the natural production. So if you if you're going to go on it and want to maintain fertility, they usually do prescribe other drugs to help
maintain them. Is there any adverse effects that we know of thus far for people like as they age well into their later years like seventies, 80s, like are they going to be better off having that higher levels like because if they're supplementing with him throughout, you know, menopausal years and beyond or guys, you know, 40s, fifties, 60s, etcetera, you know your your decline in testosterone is
going to happen naturally. Are they going to experience a net gain or net loss as they get into their elder years by taking that exogenously? It's kind of a little question we we may not even know yet. If for males, I definitely believe that it's a overall a net positive as long as you're managing overall blood work essentially.
So like I I think it's a net positive and you're on top of blood pressure on top of you're not having any any negative effects on lipids, you're managing everything else. But like like you said, we we do have limit somewhat limited long term data especially for people who are just. Replacing to a physiological level, but right now I would say the data as a whole suggests that it it would be a net
positive. If you are in the subset of needing or noticing, you have symptoms of low testosterone. Yeah, I I think I'm in agreement with you on that based off of what I've seen in the data. What's interesting though for me, and I don't mean to make this by me about me by any means, but as a natural competitor they ban all that stuff even if you're only competing or only taking a physiological dose to bring you up to physiological levels. They don't allow any of that stuff.
So it's kind of this catch 22 in the natural federations because, and I think this is holds true regardless of the sport, not, not if it's just bodybuilding, but other sports as well Like if they have down the banned substance list, it's there's like a point in which you are actually sacrificing your health and well-being by maintaining your natural status and not really sure how I feel about that.
Yeah that's a that's a tricky one that that's hard to say like I don't I don't even know what I would do in that situation but I definitely feel like that it yeah just maintaining lower levels especially if you are hypogonatic and just having issues. I I'm I'm very pro TRT and even HRT for women, but I it just. It's it's a tricky situation and
it makes sense. Like, I get why they do what they do because if you are taking anything, then you shouldn't necessarily be allowed to compete with people that aren't because they don't have that benefit. So I mean, I totally get where they're coming from, but like I would love to be able to compete when I'm 60-70 years old. Am I willing to sacrifice the health benefits of the TRT at that point simply to be able to compete? I don't know. I haven't gotten there yet.
And then it's also, like you said, like when you're dieting and getting extremely lean, your testosterone is dropping. So like you can make the counter argument it's almost fair to just stay at a natural level. But then you'd obviously have an advantage when it comes to lean mass retention and energy levels. Yeah, totally. So it's, yeah, it's murky territory, I think. I mean, I think they're doing it right. And just saying, hey, look, if you take these substances, you
can't compare as natural. I mean that just seems like the the most black and white answer. But yeah, at some point, like when I'm 70 years old or 60 years old, I'm going to be like, OK, what do I want to do more? Do I want to be healthier and feel better or do I want to keep competing? But who knows? I mean, maybe with me having my diet dialed in and training dialed in at such a young age that will, I'll be able to bypass a lot of those adverse effects of aging anyways. Who knows?
Yeah. And that's that's another thing with aging like I think the majority, like a lot of people are like you, you hit 4050 and just. Testosterone drops off the Cliff, but like, not. That's not for everybody. There are individuals who maintain healthy levels into extremely late age or never have symptoms. Like, it's it's an individual case by case basis. Yeah. And honestly, like, the fact that I feel as good as I do now with total testosterone of 86, like kind of puts my mind at
ease too. It's OK, I can. I can function pretty Dang good with low testosterone, so I should be pretty bulletproof as I age. Did you happen to get estradiolamine measured during that blood work? Yeah, yeah. Let me see here. So estradiol, there was a couple times where they did not measure that, but I am currently. It just says less than two PG per ML. So I don't know what the actual measurement is, but it's less than two. Whatever. Whatever it is, what's it supposed?
To be yeah. So the general reference range for males, I've seen 20 pigograms to 50 pigograms per ML. But one major issue, and this is one of like a huge part of our work. Majority of estradiol measurements when you're getting blood work, they're done by a method called an Eliza and enzyme linked linked amino assay.
But those are notoriously bad for actually measuring estradiol as certain supplements and other medicines can interfere with the assay and then the assays aren't that reliable. So if you are going to order blood work at male or female, make sure that your doctor is ordering.
In estradiol measurement that is LCMS or GCMS liquor chromatography mass spectrometry or gas chromatography basically they're very fancy measurements ways to measure estradiol that are way better and actually give you an accurate measurement and that's that's what I do in the lab. We we can measure down to 0.1 picograms per million like or per gram in tissue. So I got.
You get so much more sensitivity and specificity with mass spec that I, if I see an estradiol on my blood work and it was done, finalize. I don't. I almost don't trust it at all. That is good to know. I got it tested in 2020 so quite some time back and it was showing 20 peak grams per ML, but I don't know what measurement they used to test that interestingly. Enough. Oh, go ahead.
No, that 20 is you're you're in the reference range like for mine I like to hover around 25 to 30 picograms per meal. That's where I I feel the best and I I want the the healthy levels of estrogen because even in males estrogen is extremely important. Yeah, totally.
Interestingly enough, with this latest draw on 10/3, with all my testosterone being tanked, my FSH and LH were still totally within the range at 4.9 and 1.8 respectively, so I thought it was interesting that those didn't drop below the marker. Yeah, that's actually really interesting 'cause I would suggest that your hypothalamus and methuitary aren't shutting down and it's still signaling to the testes, and it's the testes not producing enough testosterone.
So that is actually very interesting. Yeah, that gives me hope that you know everything will return to normal once I start. Eating more. Once you get a little more food and body fat, I definitely would expect it to come back, especially since FSH and LH aren't taking a hit. Yeah, I would definitely like to improve my baseline total testosterone from the 5 to 700 that it normally is simply by eating or not eating more, but
I'm excited about that too. But sleeping more and being less stressed, I feel like sleep is always the 1st to go for me and I never get like the recommended 8 hours sleep. I just listened to speaking to Huberman earlier. I was listening to his podcast with Matt Walker and yeah, I'm definitely not getting their recommended dose of sleep. Yes, sleep is such an underappreciated marker.
Well, not even marker, but a tool for health like I that is one thing I will I'll pass up training before I pass up sleep. That's how important I I view it. At least how how many hours you average night. 7, 1/2 to 8 nice and you feel like. Do you feel markedly different if you get like 5-6 hours? Yeah, unfortunately, I'm one of I I know people who can. They thrive on five hours, but I've learned over the years that I'm not that guy, unfortunately.
So I do have to spend a little more time sleeping. But it for me, like if I compare to five hours a night to 8 hours a night, it's night and day. It's completely different. Yeah, I I feel like 1,000,000 bucks if I get 6, but if I get less than six, I can definitely feel the difference. But I think like I only ever get six, You know, if I was to ensure that I'm getting, you know, 7 to 8 even on a regular basis, I feel like that would make a massive difference in my
hormone levels for sure. Yeah. And then just overall how how you feel like it experimenting in that 6 to 8 range, I definitely feel like most people should at least try to get that most nights of the week, but. If you're feeling good on 6 and it's working, then it possibly not. But at least I would try to experiment and see what happens. We need to do another podcast after February once you've had the child. And then I'll ask you what you're doing to maintain those
seven or eight hours of sleep. Because I have a feeling that you'll be very, you know, strict on maintaining that quarter sleep because you know how important it is and you're you're, you sacrifice training over sleep. So I'm going to be curious to see how you, how you manage that? Yeah, that that number for the first couple months is definitely going to be cut in half, I can guarantee you that. Yeah, for sure.
Do you do any specific, like you ever use those like the Eight Sleep Mattress ponds or anything? No, but I definitely want to try that because like especially for me, like temperature when I'm going to bed is extremely important, like I need 69 degrees or 68 degrees to sleep optimally and that's I've I've experimented with that through like the the Aura ring and different wearables, but. Definitely like the I I do want to try the the mattresses that
cool you. Yeah, I definitely want to get one of those thermal regulation mattresses. Interestingly enough, since I've been deeper into prep here lately, I've been sleeping in a separate room than my wife. Not because of the lack of libido, but because I'm trying to increase my sleep quality because like our son, like, he'll start off in his own bed and then she'll bring him into the bed. And like I I just wake up when I feel other people moving or noises.
So I've been trying to optimize the quality of the sleep because the quantity is so low. So I've been sleeping in the guest bedroom here lately with these last few weeks of prep, and my OR data shot up in quality of sleep simply from sleeping by myself. So most people could have a hard time convincing their spouse to be on board with that. But she's been super supportive for the prep itself, and that's been interesting sleep data, to say the least.
I noticed the same thing when my wife first became pregnant. She was extremely sick basically every evening. So we did the sleeping in separate bedrooms and that did improve my quality of sleep. So I'm we're going to have to figure something out. I want to get a one of those Wyoming Kings that are like 10 foot by 10 foot.
Yeah, yeah, something like that. Or we even thought about going old school and like having the, you know, sleeping in the same room but having the separate mattresses like they did back in the 40s, you know? I know, I know, multiple people who do that and they say it, it's. Good. So, like I, I, I might have to convince the wife. Yeah, Yeah, once.
Once you feel the difference that better sleep brings you, it's hard not to want to capitalize on it, you know, even if it means not snuggling up with your wife. Yeah, like quality sleep. It's besides like exercise. Like sleep is a very close second, possibly even more like because. Sleep. If you you will die without sleep. Like you, you can't pass that up. And then just the the quality and quantity are both extremely important. Yeah, 100%.
So go back to the testosterone or the sex hormones in general in the muscle tissue. So what are you looking for there and what what kind of data are you getting? So what we have been doing in or doing currently we're either manipulating the. Sex steroid receptor, so like estrogen receptor alpha or the androgen receptor and either we can over express the receptor or delete the receptor and we're trying to understand like the role that those play in skeletal
muscle. And then one of our recent publications that just came out a couple months ago was we over expressed aromatase in the skeletal muscle. So that led to increased estrogen in the skeletal muscle and circulating estrogen and it actually caused anabolism or skeletal muscle hypertrophy. The muscles were significantly bigger with increased estrogen in the muscle. So that's one of the current projects we're working on.
Like why? Why is that muscle hypertrophying essentially Now with that you could also run the risk of other things experiencing some hypertrophic, you know, affect like cancer cell growth for instance as well, like when you increase the estrogen to that degree, it's not really going to be specific to just the muscle tissue,
correct? Yep, exactly like one of these mice actually suffer from bladder outlet obstruction syndrome where the smooth, the smooth tissue or epithelial tissue in the urethra grows and they can't urinate as well. But yeah, like the overall goal of our lab and like our projects. May like figure out optimal hormone replacement therapy especially for females that's where majority of our research is focused on.
But also once we get to the point where we can drug the androgen or estrogen receptors in skeletal muscle tissue specifically without having off target like off target effects that would be where like the ideal long term projects would lead to and what what, what mechanism are you using to increase the estrogen in the muscle tissue, Is this like via injection or how is this getting done? So we actually the mice have their. This will get semi complicated but I'll try to keep it simple.
The mice have their genomes edited so they carry trans genes and when we give an antibiotic, like a low dose antibiotic in the water, it allows us to over express or delete. Different genes which encode for different receptors in the muscle. So this is all through transgenic, but we also do like transgenic animal models, but we also do just like global hormone replacement therapy and estrogen
replacement therapy. So if this were to become efficacious in the human population, how would this be administered at scale there in your opinion? Long way off there, but similar to. Like it's what tharm are you feeling me familiar with SARMS essentially yeah. It's what SARMS are are looking to be like what the problem with SARMS is they're the reason one of the reasons they were they didn't pass FDA was they did they improved muscle size but didn't improve muscle function.
Obviously that can be confounded because in cancer patients like they weren't, they potentially weren't exercising but being able to just target the muscle without the off target effects. It's extremely hard especially for skeletal muscle tissue. But like for SARMS, like if you chronically take too high of a dose of a Sarum or for example, you will get pituitary and hypothalamic shutdown, so you will crash endogenous
production. So just getting to the point where we can specifically target the muscle that that would be the goal similar to like how PCSK 9 inhibitors when you give that drug like through subcutaneous injection it only can target. They deliver. So kind of getting to the point where we can do that muscle, but we're a long ways off from there, but that would that would
be the long term goal. When it comes to to HRT in females specifically, there seems to be a myriad of different delivery vehicles you've got like the pellets, you've got the patches, you've got the injections, you've got the creams like what is the the best delivery vehicle. I'm assuming it's probably going to be somewhat individual dependent, but it's things with a lot of these compounding agents. There's just a massive room for inaccuracies and and just too many variables.
Yeah. And that that is the number one question we're trying to answer, figuring out the routed delivery that is best because obviously, like you said, there's something like transdermal creams. There's like a vaginal application of estradiol, there's the pills, there's the injections, there's the pellets. Based off what I currently see the the pellets are one potentially.
Not a great option just due to the levels wildly fluctuate when you first when you first administer the pellet, the levels shoot up super physiological high and then stay high and then even at the time of replacement the physiological levels in some studies have reported reported being two to three times higher than what natural endogenous levels are. So I'm personally not a fan of that method, but the transdermal
patches that that probably. In my opinion, right now it has pretty good data, especially because you can manipulate the patch by application duration, potentially the size of the patch etcetera. And the frequency I think would be key too because I have a lot of these guys that are getting TRT done, like they'll go in and they'll get, they'll get a a massive bolus injection, but then they're not going for
another four to six weeks. So everything peaks you know early on and then they just kind of it dies off. So in fact, a lot of guys have been doing, you know, weekly or biweekly or like every Wednesday or something, taking a smaller dose so they can kind of maintain more reasonable physiological levels. Yeah, that every six to eight weeks I think is absolutely horrific. Should not be done clinically. What seems to be ideal right now
would I prefer? Well, in my opinion I prefer the twice a week, even the even the once a week you can have issues but the twice a week? You can get more stable levels, especially if you do it subcutaneously in the adipose tissue you get a more steady release instead of
intramuscularly. But there's been interesting data ongoing, even more frequent and then some have shown that like you get less shut down natural and production based on frequency but also like some of the newer methods of administration such as nasally so like there's there's some
interesting data but. Right now if you're doing injection wise, I think the twice a week is probably the the Goldilocks for most people and a lot of these companies are getting pretty savvy with how they're, they're reducing the barrier to entry to making that transdermal injection pretty, pretty streamlined like it's like a little EpiPen almost right. Yep, a lot of them are
preloaded. But one of the issues with the preloaded you're it's hard really hard to adjust the dose, the 11 benefit, withdrawing it up yourself and injecting which obviously is a barrier to entry for some patients. But the the biggest thing I think the pro would be you can adjust because 80 to 100 megs of one person divided twice a week is going to be completely different than the the next person. Gotcha.
Apart from the obvious, you know, fundamental stuff like proper sleep training, proper nutrition, are there any, you know, supplemental routes that people can take that are pretty good bang for the buck as far as naturally increase increasing their their physiological levels? Yeah, I naturally I I'm not really pro any of the the.
Popular ones that are advertised boron potentially has some efficacious use but all the other the other ones that are often touted for efficacy, I'm I'm not really a huge fan of I, I try to put majority of your effort into the lifestyle modifications. Yeah, there's a big push right now or there was like a few months back about that trikesterone the, the plant based steroids, but I don't think any of the data shook out on that one. Yeah, that one. And then there's two other plant
ones that are often touted. But I I've, I experimented. I can't remember off the names off the top of my head, but I did experiment with them, but I did not find that they were that great. Yeah, I mean, I think anybody that's reaching for those prior to just simply getting ample sleep and training and getting all the crap out of their diet is barking up the wrong tree. Yeah, if you can lose some excess adiposity and sleep better you're you're going to
improve hormone production 100%. So when it comes to like timelines with regards to the research that you're doing and hopefully seeing it play out in human models, what what do you think we're looking at time frame wise? Oh, that. That'd be very hard to guess, but probably the the one that we could probably get to human
quickest is just. Expanding the knowledge on hormone replacement therapy because like like you said, it is the Wild West and having people truly appreciate the the details of it and like the intricacies of what can happen like that, That a huge effort needs to be put there because the popular study in the early 2000s, the Women's Health Initiative, it kind of set back the field for years.
Hundreds of thousands of women were probably deprived of Estraderan hormone replacement therapy that shouldn't have been. But we really need to figure out the the method of delivery with establishing the the proper levels because it different clinics and different methods of delivery just produce widely different results. Is there any particular resource that you would recommend people go to that are wanting to dive deeper into this but they can
trust? Because this is definitely a topic that the masses are ignorant on. I mean like so many guys are like, I just want to get more testosterone, I want to minimize my estrogen, whereas in fact you don't want to necessarily minimize your estrogen. Like everything is interconnected and all hormones are, you know, pretty much interlinked. Like you can't really just change one and expect it not to have a profound impact on the others.
Yeah, unfortunately I don't have a great recommendation, but just having people just kind of understand the the. Any Physiology behind it like that you got you got to look at the big picture like you said like I I personally want my estrogen levels as high as I can get them without having any symptoms negative symptoms with having too high of an estrogen. But like the you have to appreciate the whole system. You can't just pull on one lever and expect that's the only thing
that happens. Like you give TRT, you got to realize what you're going to do to fertility and long term production. Like you got, you got to look at all the. Pros and cons and what's going to happen? Like, it's not just do this one thing and everything's fixed. Yeah, there's no no shortcuts, no quick fixes, no no gimmies or hacks with anything. Yeah, you just you got to people love the major in the minors.
But we need to take a step back and look, look at the the big picture that that that's really what is going to make the the biggest difference. Focus on nutrition focused on sleep. Focus on minimizing excess stress and just physical activity. Like if you're going to take like a couple things to focus on, it would definitely be those everybody's worried about, like what supplement should I take, what exercise should I do.
But just focusing on the big picture things is what's going to drive the the the biggest outcomes. We were talking about one thing to touch on majoring in the minors before we hit the record button. Is there like, do you think that is more prominent now more so than ever? And if so, like what is it that you think is driving this mentality of majoring in the
minors? Is it because there's just this massive influx in very granular detail, specific information that people are getting inundated with, or or what's? What's going on there? I definitely think it's a little bit of that and then also a lot of people are. I at least I've seen on social media a lot of people try to demonize items or ingredients and like this is bad, this is
good. But like you can't look at nutrition or exercise like that way that there is no there's no good or bad there will be better and worse. But like in things we should focus on, but like a lot of people like for example like one of the recent ones that aspartame was reclassified as a Class 2B carcinogen, but what also is in that class Aloe Vera lotion.
Cell phone use in class one above that, which would be like like class 2B. Like basically it's potentially carcinogenic, but smoked meat is Class 1, alcohol is Class 1, sunbathing is Class 1. So it's like you got to look at the big picture. Like am I going to be upset that I have a Diet Coke once in a while? No, but it I'm definitely not going to be consuming 3 to 5 a day, but like. People love to just like the people walking in grocery stores and making the viral videos like
in reading off ingredient list. Like there this this one ingredient in this one food that you may have once a week is your you will never notice an effect there. Like focus on the big picture, eat high quality food, sleep, exercise. They just focus on the basics. Don't be focusing on one single ingredient that's driving all disease in America like some people make it out to be.
Yeah, it's kind of weird, man. Like for me as a, you know, quote UN quote influencer and someone in the space talking about nutrition, it's like when I distill my core beliefs down to its simplest form. It's really comically simple. Eat good quality food. Move your body, sleep more, love life. Like it. It's it's it's like I almost feel guilty for coaching people, but like so many people and I can get like crazy specific and tweaking electrolytes and weighing out salt and
macronutrient manipulations. Like, I can get as granular as people want to get. But but so many people have a hard time just simply embracing the basics and majoring in the minors to the point where they just become chronically stressed and paralyzed by making any positive momentum because they're just inundated with all this misinformation or information that's, you know, sensationalized. And I don't understand why that's the case. Like, where is the common sense these days?
It's it. I think that's like one of the biggest issues like we we are in a period of like information is extremely accessible, but a lot of the information out there is just garbage like you said, like if you if everybody focused on eating high quality food, moving more, sleeping. Loving life, minimizing stress like everybody be healthier.
You don't have to you don't have to get super specific with certain for like looking at the big picture obviously like if we're peaking for a bodybuilding show we're trying to maximize hypertrophy then we're going to get into electrolytes, protein a timing of everything etcetera. But like for most people, they just you have to nail the basics. If you're you're stepping over. The basics and then just trying to focus on like these minute things that are not making any
difference in the long term. Yeah, 100% man, 100%. Well, let me ask you this, man, to round out things. What are you excited about going forward? I know you get your dissertation. You said next Tuesday, is that right? No, actually in two days, Wednesday. In two days, 2 days, and then you've got a baby on the way in February. So those are two massive things. I would definitely be excited for those two. But what? What beyond that, man? Well, I'll be taking a postdoctoral research job.
So I'll be doing some more. I'll be doing a little more Cancer Research going forward. So looking forward to that. But from what's on the horizon basically in like the health field, I think a lot of like wearable technology that's coming out in the next 5 to 10 years, It's going to be extremely valuable for people. I'm, I'm quite excited about
that. And then also some of the longevity data that there's going to be some interesting studies in the next 5 to 10 years like those those would be long my long term outlooks that I'm looking forward to and then for myself look looking forward to becoming a dad. That's that's about it. Well, that that's the best man as far as the wearable data goes. Is there like a specific device or measurement that you're hopeful to see and implement soon?
I so I've experimented with continuous glucose monitors, a continuous ketone monitor. I did use that a little bit. That was interesting. It definitely has some work to do, but it was an interesting like startup company. I believe it was China. But a continuous lactate
monitor? That'd be really interesting for fine tuning exercise and and surprisingly it's also it's also like an important metric for metabolic health like if you are metabolically unhealthy, you're going to have an elevated fasting lactate. So like knowing that during exercise I could really play play around with looking at like anaerobic threshold and Zone 2 training. So like I'm really excited for the day we get the the lactate monitor and I do believe it's on the horizon.
I have. I've heard rumors. Yeah, I would love to play around with that. I would love to have a continuous cortisol monitor. I think that would be super interesting. That would also be interesting. And then cuz measuring cortisol is just not easy. You can do it in the urine and saliva, but like it's difficult to get A levels over time, so like if somebody could come out with a continuous measurement of that, that'd be extremely extremely useful. That would be interesting to have.
You know, attached to your wife as she's going through these first few months postpartum. I feel like that would be interesting. Interesting data. Oh yeah, yeah. I I, I would love to take blood work and run run the mascot, you know just get get all the hormone levels and all the changes because that that's just an interesting time. Yeah, time frame there. For sure, man. Well, Christian Brother, I am super excited to be reconnecting with you. I'm stoked for your baby on the way.
I definitely, let's definitely talk sooner than. We have with between podcasts this last go around here, I mean 2019 and now it's just far, far too long because you're always doing something interesting that I'm excited to learn more about. But I'm stoked for you to have your baby. It really is the best thing in the world, man. Like I I have no doubt that you're just going to soak it up, brother. Nope. Thank you for having me, Robert. Looking forward to it.
And yeah, I'll definitely over the next six months to a year, I'd love to come back because we'll definitely have some interesting data regarding nutrition, cancer and metabolism. 100% man Well, what? Where's the best place people can go to Follow along and make sure they're in your in your world right now just Instagram just I believe it's Christian Unger 1/3 on Instagram. Just that. That's my main social media. Perfect. Well, I will certainly tag that linking in the the show notes.
Make it easy for people to find you. And brother, if there's everything I can do to help you in any way, man, you let me know. I'm always there for you. Yes, Sir. Sounds good. Thank you, man. Take care, bud. Bye, you too.