What's going on is James, Robert Sykes, kilo Savage.com. And today I have special guest, Jim Howard. He is the president and CEO of biosense. Biosense is this new? It's a breathalyzer for ketones. There's a bunch of different breathless on the market right now, but this one is legit. They write the metabolic Health Summit AT a booth set up. I went and used it several times. They were kind of two similar
device. I've been tracking it this entire week and I'm really impressed with it thus far, it syncs with heads up Health, it syncs with all my other day. Data data. So I can have all this information at my fingertips, which I'm a huge fan of because I'm all about the data. Now, this podcast, like all podcasts are not sponsored. I'm not getting any Kickback from gym or biosense. I just like the device I believe
in the company. I like what they're doing, they hook me up with a discount code to give to Young the discount code is Savage. That's going to save you 20 bucks at my bio sense.com. I don't get any Kickback from that. I gave my portion to kick back back to the company. Because I believe in what they're doing and I feel like what they're creating is something that could potentially help lots of people and that's
what it's all about. So without further Ado, sit back relax and draw this podcast with Jim Howard. Learn something about testing, your breath, ketones and enjoy. Imagine, how are you, sir? Good, thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. I'm excited about this because you are the CEO and founder of biosense, which is the the breathalyze incur testing device that I've been using this whole
past week. So I want to kind of dive into that and flush that out in great detail for the audience here. But before we do that, I want to kind of get into your bag store man. Like why why Ketone why Ketone meters wide a ketogenic diet? Like what brought you in the first? Yeah. At a personal level, my wife initially was involved. She's a cancer survivor. She was losing some, some baby weight type of thing Q, junk, that was very successful with
her. And then really, I would just kind of helping her find a way that she could test multiple times per day, you know. So she wasn't getting false positives and then I adopted the diet myself, the protocol for information purposes, you know, for running bad knees. You know, you hear that a lot and it Helped immensely. So I have a background in the with a number of Technologies in the in a hospital space, including some of the
respiratory devices out there. And I was looking for really a way that we could overlay that experience with technology that would support the ketogenic diet. So I was really fortunate to meet two Geniuses that had developed this and we're in the process of doing research on the device and that would happen. And it started working on this about to Two years ago, so I met them a year ago.
One thing led to another and I became the CEO of the company and we built built the company readout Health around the Bayou Sense Technology. And then just commercialized it actually got you. So you kind of fell into the diet itself just like as a default way to improve your own health. Having heard about it from your wife's benefits, you know how long ago was that couple of
years prior to the yeah. But a year and a half ago is when I really do of into the lower carb diet Not necessarily the ketogenic diet but but certainly one that was similar, that would be greeting ketones. So I keep them levels, were low, hers were higher and then ultimately we just adopted the same diet when I got involved with this project. Okay. And it's a lifestyle for
forever. Well, I met y'all at the the metabolic Health Summit. This year is like the only conference that didn't get cancelled due to the virus and y'all were you know we're just slammed with people at your booth. Trying to get more information about this thing. Yeah, it was a lot of fun that was our clinical launch and the, the device itself had a very warm reception and with 320 people test the device. So high level of accuracy, a lot of people compared it to BHP
measurements. And, and we put, you know, we think was positioned very well for that academic audience. And but it's a consumer device as well as a clinical and academic device. Catch Hank. Actually, I want to talk about the, the the clinical trials that had taken place. Based on this because this is only Ketone devices had this degree of clinical trial testing, right? That's right. Can you kind of dive into that a little bit? Yeah, sure. So, you know, this is a basis of
this. I think, in the especially in the consumer world, when people think about breath, acetone or a device that checks breath asked ketones in your breath, they think of, well, it's kind of like you're in strips, just not very accurate, and that is the truth. That's how it's been in the past. So lab measurements using meth. Back or gas chromatography, gas
chromatography. For example, are good ways that you can do that in a lab, but there's not a portable way that a consumer or a patient could use this. So, so the, the trial that we did was really to, to prove that there is a strong correlation throughout the day of breath, acetone to BHP, and which the majority of consumers are using either urine strips or they're using PHP capillary draws. So those are Kind of the devices that most folks use.
So, we had a trial in St. Louis with 22 subjects, over a two-week period, they pick their finger five times a day. Using the Abbott's Precision extra device, which was we found to be the most accurate when out there. So based on that then they would take three breaths measurement measurements. So over the course of 14 days that resulted in over 1,300 data points and led to a paper that's under peer review, right now is just published.
So That's really the basis of the technology and we proved a couple really interesting things, quite frankly, one of them, which only logical but people don't think about it all
that much. I certainly didn't was was the fact that you know, multiple measurements per day are needed and how do we know that we know that because when someone gets up in the morning from a 12-hour fast or maybe you know, eight hours of sleep, invest their Ketone levels are going to be different than what they are later in the day.
So So the clinical trial showed that morning measurement for example, the majority of subjects in the trial were more than fifty percent away from their time-weighted average Ketone levels. So if you just say your average Ketone levels versus your morning measurement way off. So it's a really poor reflection of what your ketogenic personal journey is. And so really need about three to five measurements regardless of what device you have.
Ours, or if you use it, where the capillary blood draw devices. So that was one thing that we proved and with those multiple measurements per day. This is where the difference in the product really stems from. Is we showed that through our patented technology of deep lung sampling, which is using just the last bit of your, of your breath. That's for your highest. Concentrations are of compounds using just that breath and of your breath. Boil the correlation to beach
view is very, very, very high. So it was a .83 coefficient variation so that that's the clinical grade. And so when you see the material about a medical-grade device that it stems from that research, so other devices out there that were breath Ketone devices. They're not using to deep link sample. They're not closed systems. Me, they're just sampling the air around you and there's just a lot of limitations and how that could be used, certainly not in the clinical.
You know, in a clinical way. So so we we brought this to Market just in the end of it's right at the end of January, right at MHS metabolic Health Summit. Well, I've been just blown away with how how easy to use it is like I tried the level device and not to talk down about them by any means but it's just a larger device, it's cumbersome and I was I was getting all these crazy readings or just a lot of inconsistencies but with y'all's it made it just worked
right out of the box. And it's Except with heads of Health, which is what I use to track all my metrics, like it pulls in. Almond macro is my sinks with my scale, so I can get my daily way in. And now, I can sync that up with biosense, the the breath lysing device that y'all are putting out. So everything's all in one place. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's great.
And I think that especially something like, heads of Health where you're tracking information all day, you know, the buyer hacker crowd loves to to have multiple measurements. So you know, whether it's Continuous glucose monitor or our device, which is multiple measurements per day, you know, you want to have all that in one place. So, so that's, it's perfect for that Community.
But even in the weight loss side, you might have some listeners that are really focused on on the ketogenic diet or other protocols, where you're going into ketosis through, caloric restriction, like fasting or whatever that is you have to have feedback through the day if you want to have it here instead to a protocol, and that's the difficult thing.
You know, if someone's just pricking their finger, Today, it is not going to get that feedback to drive behavior and you're not going to get the outcomes that you want. So it's a struggle for some, but yeah. So the the recognizing devices are definitely the newest and probably least known on the market. Currently, most people are familiar with the urine strips, which if they've been adapted for any length of time. They know that they don't really show an accurate reflection of
their their level of ketosis. And the blood tests, you know, there are great, but they have their own limitations. As well with regard to kind of comparing the blood test and the breathalyzer is there are they pretty well correlated? Are there any instances where like you might see in an inverted correlation between the the breath in the blood? Yeah that's that's actually a very good question. I think it in general, it depends on the person obviously.
So the correlation any spot correlation mean, like just once a day you're checking your blood versus your breath. Most people, it's pretty close. Like our device would be 10 times what? Millimolar would be as if you're one point out millimolar, you'll have a 10 cases an archive. So most people are pretty shy. So sometimes the correlation throughout the day and this is all on our website in our trial paper. We expose that some people are
very, very close. Some lot of people tend to be a little bit delayed in breath ketones, then blood ketones. So it depends the one area where it's going to be, they're going to go in different directions is exercise. So if you're exercising, you get Have an increase typically you have an increase in your breath ketones, whereas you're going to have less circulating blood ketones circulated. Body is use them when you're working out with Jonah Beach, be check. So, this is the two are.
So I think that, you know, certainly for exercises argument would be that breakfast is superior methodology of tracking that Genji. And that's that's kind of understand that. The main thing is getting me fascinated by, you know, as an athlete, you're trying to compare that because like, I would take a blood test, you know, shortly after training or after a cardio session. And I would notice a pretty significant dip in the Ketones.
And that was also wearing a CGM. At the time side, notice a corresponding spike in blood glucose, you know, post training for about like 30 minute window, post training and I've been playing around with the, the breathalyzer just this past weeks around a ton of data. But it seems that I noticed much higher readings within about that 30 minutes to 1 hour, you know, post training window, right? Right? So, you know, your you have Dynamic ketones, like many people do and that's the key.
Thing. So you want to be tracking this after your workout track before and after a meal to see exactly what the impact at a meal level is as opposed to just once a day and then they certainly extends to Ketone elevation in a state of fasting so fast in ketosis or you know, that's a good way to also use the device to is checking that every hour or so. To see if you get your that level of ketosis. That's ideal for a top-tier whatever your target is.
There's one Found out there that suggests that the longer your adapted, the lower, your blood ketones are going to Trend because your body just gets more efficient at up, taking those Ketone bodies into the cells, they're not going to be in the bloodstream to be, you know, measured via a blood test. Do you notice any correlation there with like length of adaptation and the readouts on the breathalyzer?
You know, I, since the products just in the market, I think that we'd need a lot more data, you know, from our, you know, hundreds of thousands of users, the That we anticipate having here in the next year, but it's just time will tell but, you know, we're looking at a lot of different things for our upcoming clinical trials and evaluating information like that with some of our clinical Partners. That's that's an interesting one right there.
So from like a clinical standpoint because most of your you know, direct work has been done in the hospital tried in the clinical settings, not so much in the consumer sector. What are you seeing like just, you know into the future, what do you expect? What Are we excited about? I guess as far as the company is concerned. Yeah, that's a that's a that's a fun idea to think about actually, is the company started the project with Tim and Matt ratto. The two Founders Timmy, the Bay
Area is a breath expert. A sensing expert, and Matt rat is at the University of Toronto. And the twin brothers when they when we first started working on the project and I got involved, you know, we're working with a very large virtual Clinic treating diabetes and as a way to kind of fill a technology Gap, but the fact of the matter is the majority of the patients.
Right now being treated with nutritional ketosis, you know, be a neurological disorders, or obesity or diabetes, their consumers or so really, it's a unique space that we're in. Is that? Yes, we're clinically oriented. We have a medical grade product that focuses on chronic diseases but there's a lot of people that have that fit that bill their consumers. Meaning that, you know, maybe the clinician saying, hey, just need to go get something to check your ketones and they're on their own.
So, so we, I think the future holds for us is that our technology, our core technology that's patented allows us to bring other devices to Market that use breath. Sampling. And there are a number of those out there right now, but none of them can have that high level of accuracy. That only comes with the Deep lung sampling technology that we have. So that's the secret sauce that we The codon.
And, yeah, so this this could extend to other chronic diseases to. So, you're talking about applications outside of just testing for ketones and right. Yes. So that what are some, what are some examples that? Because I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to anything outside. Yeah, this is other there's a lot of other devices that could, you know, device applications methane hydrogen carbon dioxide Co for for smoking cessation is
an example. So there's a Applications and there are some devices out there they're not going to be have that level of accuracy that we have but those are areas that we could focus on if we choose to. But I think you know, others that were really looking at right now, is a deep understanding of the psychological side of this to behavioral aspect of weight management protocols and beefing that up to. So we're spending a lot of time on looking at the various options that we have to expand
you know and touch on a lot of different. Ain't there, it's not just Ketone levels. Then that brings an interesting scenario to the table to because I feel like a large, I mean I think honestly if you look at obesity so much of it stems from like the psychological aspect of, you know, food consumption and one doubt look in perception of food. As this reward, you know, feedback loop that becomes this negative feedback loop.
I feel though that if they had a tech, like a method, such as testing their breath ketones, I was giving them, you know, real time, instant feedback as to, you know, this this response to what they're putting into their body that may be enough to kind of sway them against, you know, overindulging in a certain food. That's not going to bring them closer towards a healthier
nutritional path, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean it's a little bit of a big brother thing where you've got a device. It's you know fits in the palm of your hand and weighs just a couple ounces and you know that that's going to give you your level of fat burn right there all day long. If you wanted to 20 times a day unlimited measurements, right? Sound like you're paying for each measurement when you have that feedback and maybe let's use that example is an obese
patient. It's really tough. You know the majority of those patients and obesity Clinic they are. They've been trying everything, everything everything and nothing ever really works because they're using a scale, you know, they got water weight. That's fluctuating, they don't feel great about themselves and it's just difficult and I think a lot of the Position just kind of give up on it. Like, hey, here's medication for
your diabetes. Here is a protocol that you should try and do you really believe it's going to work again because if nothing has in the past, but if you could have some, some type of tool wear one of them, there's others other protocol to, you could tool, it's giving you feedback all day long and maybe you just your first step is I need to get my key tones up and get into a state of fat burn. You know it might take three days to lose a pound that's fine. You get these numbers.
Is it becomes a little addictive like hey want to check again, want to check again and and people can then start to design their behavior to do what results in that Ketone elevation and they will see results from that. You know, as we all know, if you you're in ketosis and you're getting that type of feedback you're going to burn fat especially from the ketogenic diet or some of the other ones that are, you know, put you well into ketosis.
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely like the idea of having the ability to track metrics outside and Scale weight alone. I feel like, you know, people villainize the scale, which I don't think is right either. I mean, it's just giving you a number, you don't need to embrace that in and then act upon it accordingly. But having metrics outside the scale, just gives you more more of an Arsenal to work with. Do you notice any any correlation with regard to the
consumption of Exotics ketones? Like you know, if I take in Ketone solid Chiquito Nestor I see a pretty substantial spike in my blood. Ketones is that also going to hold true with the Eliezer it can. But you know, the one thing if you take bah, bah, bah, be Kita, exemptions Tito. It's going to be a little longer than it would probably be with blood, you know, because it's BHP. Yeah. So you're going to get the same type of elevation, you know, I particularly, I don't respond that.
Well, to those, I respond better to Fat higher fat intake, like your keto brick that I've been chomping on a low Peak, you know, but everyone's a little bit different. So, Yeah, I'm curious man. Have you noticed just since you've been playing around the keto brick has every noticed me. Corresponding increase in your Ace levels.
Yeah, I have and, you know, I'm one of those people that can't find enough fat you try to fit in and and I got to be really careful about that for, so I don't lose weight and I been noticing that throughout the week. I've been checking my ketones with the key tobruk and certainly there's If it's provided that balance where it's a more reliable elevated. Ketone, has posed to me forgetting about that fat intake because I just can't find the
right food. So so I found that it's a kind of a reliable way to really stabilize my Ketone targets with that highly accessible and very tasty. And there's not a commercial here, but I'm saying is taste really good. So that was the problem of having too much, but answer your question. Yes, it's I found it very helpful for me. Okay, it's interesting. Out with it comes from the keto
brick or not. I feel like people that eat a higher fat version of Quito because now there's like a million different versions of Quito. Whereas in the beginning it was just pretty much cut and dry but a lot of people will argue that if you're eating a lot of dietary fats you're going to have these higher Ketone levels but it's going to inhibit your body's ability to burn stored
fat, you know, adipose tissue. But so many people that are so much context that needs to be brought to the light there. There's a lot of people that are just starting to ketogenic diet. They're not coming from a high-fat protocol and then they drastically cut their fat intake because they hear some keto Guru saying that, but then their bodies not yet adapted to using
and burning body fat. So you kind of have to learn and adapt yourself to the higher fat ratio prior to, you know, prioritizing that that stored body fat loss. That makes any sense. Absolutely. Yeah. So you know I wouldn't recommend you know very highest fat diet for that Cardiology patient and There's a lot of it is right now being treated nutritional ketosis as of the heart's ability in the brain's ability to use that source of energy, so efficiently, but yeah, it's to
each his own. I'm curious, man with you kind of interacting so much in the clinical setting. What's, what is the vibe that you're picking up on, like, as it relates to the future of Quito in the first place? Like I got an interesting perspective as an influence from the space and as a content creator, Sir, but I'm curious to see, kind of what your your perspective isn't. What you're picking up on, just based off of, you know, listening and talking and interacting with people in the
clinical setting. Yeah. Well, it's probably the impact of all of you folks out there in the consumer world that, like, people are talking about it so much that, you know, some point, these clinicians are going to hear it from their patients like so many patients that. Hey I'm on the ketogenic diet. Look at the impact on diabetes or obesity. They have to listen. So you know, a lot of Our engagement. Well, I can break in our engagement into different groups. The first one is, is the
academic setting. So we work with big Pharma and we've got three other clinical trials, starting at academic centers where that is nutritional ketosis targeting a specific chronic disease. We've got two upcoming and cancer. One, is another one in obesity and they're just, they have to have some non invasive, highly accurate way to do this. That's horrible. So we're the only device that checks those boxes.
So the other side of this is the in clinic use and we've got clinics like three Health up in Washington state, and a number of other ones that have been contacting Us in the past few weeks, we're starting to get set up and that works out really well, especially with heads up Health integration but that allows us to, you know, provide for their you know, remote patients or patients that are starting to come back now because of it, you know, the Restrictions being lifted, it
allows them to have feedback from their patients, to know exactly what the fat burn level is and their patients. So if you think about that like taking a one measurement per day, it's not very helpful for Clinic, you don't know what's
happening to your patient. So if you can see that there's Trends throughout the day and then Coach appropriately, and this really hits spot on for coaches, ketogenic coaches to is, if you can see that throughout the day and look at these Trends, you really can address some of the behaviors that might be causing, you know, some of the issues, if it's weight gain or whatever it is. But you have to have that information, no data, no action. So that's that's where we said,
yeah. Feel like I don't know. For me, I'm very much data driven. They don't worry in it. And I feel like there's two trains of thought they're like so many people are, you know, quick to say that you just need to not. Look at any numbers, not track any metrics, not track your Macros, not track your Take your cloak expense or anything and it just be totally intuitive with it.
And I think if you're going to be intuitive, the ketogenic diet is great for that because it allows you to kind of tap into what your body's giving you is feedback without having to rely so heavily on the numbers. But at the same time, if there's a specific goal that you're trying to reach and you're not there yet, turning a blind eye to that. That data is just ignorance and stupidity.
I'm in my opinion you're right you know a good example of that is in fasting where You know, everyone's doing intermittent fasting seemingly at least on the coast you and I live in the midwest, we don't see it that much in our friends and family, but certainly, it's very, very popular on the coast. And interestingly, there's hey, Mike, I'm gonna do a 36 hour faster. I'm doing X Y, 36, verses 30. What's the point of that need to think about?
It's like I'm trying to get my body into a position where there's either going to be cell regeneration or whatever. That is at apogee is my I never went Target. Well, that comes with a level of ketosis, not necessarily just hours so hot, but it's ours because how else you going to tell, you know, prick your finger every 30 minutes to see those elevations. And you see some people doing that, you know. But yeah it's it.
You want to have that feedback and you want to be able to be able to react to it. Well it gives you it. I mean it gives you a leg to stand on. I feel like so many of these psychological you know, eating disorders and just You know, - relationships with, you know, training and fasting and all of it really is just a result of both, you know, uncertainty. And if you at least have the numbers, you have the, the data, then you can see, what is
positive, what is negative? As a result of your stimulus, your input and then you can adjust accordingly, like, like I always tell my clients, you know, don't get mad at this scale. Like it's just telling you what what what feedback has been given based off of the manipulations in the levers? We pull, we don't look at that as good or bad information. Just simply information, then you can adjust accordingly. Exactly.
You gotta watch out for this scale because if you're building muscle mass, obviously in Europe, you losing is losing fat or any fad. You're not naturally gonna be losing weight, right? Exactly. Yeah. And there was time of my life, man, where I was I was ecstatic when ever. I saw that scale go up like every every time I saw another pound on them like man I'm just getting jacked but it's probably a lot more body fat than I wanted to admit but that's what
I thought at the time. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, very cool, man. I'm definitely excited about what you got going on here with the, with the company with the
product. Because like I said, this is not a sponsored podcast by any means, but I believe in what you're doing because it's, it has so many direct applications to both the clinical setting and the consumer side and for me as a performance athlete, like it just gives me a lot of information that I would not normally have and it gives it to me in a different different light than I'm getting from just a, you know, a blood test or urine.
Test in the fact that it does integrate with, you know, heads up else, I'm getting on my macro data in there. All my exercise that in there that could just gives me a lot of information and I'm a freak about information. Yeah. Yeah it also integrates with sends chronometer life extend and life fasting. So there's a number of ways that you can use whatever apps that you currently do. Is there any other like what generation of the biosense product?
We on now is just like pretty much first generation. Yeah, these I mean we have made dozens and dozens of enhancements since our launch based on user feedback, you know, it's Bluetooth enabled with an app. So you know, we've made this as easy as possible. So it's, I would say it's still the primary version 1, but on software, we're constantly upgrading that to make it really, really easy. So, that's the key component.
I do have a question on. I got you on here so I can get my device, I've got it synced up with all of my You know, wearables and tracking one not, is there a way that I can have other people like my wife, for instance, have her tested and then it not add to my dad? Yes, there is a delete measurement feature. So, this is a, you know, it's a single user device. However, if you want to share it with with your fan that we get that request a lot, you know?
Hey, my wife and I are both on this for my husband. Yes, you can delete your form your most recent measurement, so it's not going to mess with. The trends that it's showing you and, you know, everything's about the trend, the Valley of the device is to show your Ketone level Trends. So it won't impact that catchy catchy. That's good to know because I haven't, I've had her one, the trial, but I've pushed her away until I had you on the podcast.
Yeah, you can do that and then you can share it to. I mean, there's a sharing feature, you know, if you're not using an integrated system, like heads up help you can, you know, certainly just click a couple of buttons on there and there's share your measurements by day by week. You know, if a health coach, you know, if the coaches just not is only focusing on ketones. But that's a pretty cool thing that a lot of the clinical Community seems to to, like as
well. Got ya, got ya, is there like a recommended, you know, 24-hour, protocols far as like wake up test train test. Like, if you were to test, you know, five to ten times a day. What are the the recommended times to test is one better than the other in your opinion.
Yeah, I think in a very general way would be, you know, Personally, I think publicly, we say, three to four measurements a day, the more measurements you have, the better your curve, just some more resolution in it. So I would say, you know, before breakfast, you know, mid morning after, you know, hour after lunch type of thing and then, you know, an evening measurement to we're going to bed. So again, for five a day is pretty good. Just really depends on people's
schedules. And I saw in the directions, is it recommended not testing during the same, You know, 24-hour a tower block of drinking alcohol. I'm assuming that if you have a blood alcohol content, that's also going to show on the breathalyzer as I guess. It's going to be picked up as a ketone reading, right? Yeah, I can really show elevated measurements. So what you want to do with alcohol, take care.
If you're going out on Friday night for a few beers or a wine, whatever that is, just take your measurement before that and then wait till the next day. Now, if you're, you know, if you have a lot of alcohol, breath the next day, we your And don't say, even if apparently it's going to impact that too. So, but normally normal consumption.
You're fine. Just make sure you do it before him and on that topic, if you're not even drinking like if you just are deeply adapted your do like a week-long faster, something and you get popped and and tested from a police officer for driving and drinking. You would also pop on their breathalyzers. Will you not? It's possible. I've heard that I have not done testing with a alcohol, left light up. Professional grade one minute, it's big company in st.
Louis here. We should probably check that they're the number one manufacturer of those is here. So I'll ask them to do a test, will shoot me and I could see, I could see police officers carrying around this mile since device here in the future. Yeah, we're thinking about this is a, as a way of getting out of that too. I don't know. There's a lot of I don't wanna go down the legal path of this conversation. Shoot, man, this guy's a lemon sky's the limit. Yeah. Well, awesome gym.
I don't keep you on here too long, you get you got more bow sins products to make and labs to change. But what can people go to find out more about you and the product and get one of their interesting? Yeah. So you can find that information at my bio sense.com and they'll be all of our researchers on there and how we work with clinicians and such. So my bio sense.com and now look forward to working with some of your readers to and listeners. Well, I will certainly get that.
I feel like my audience would be all about. About tracking more data. For sure. Great. Thanks of time sir and I'll keep in touch. Okay. Alright take care. Bye bye.