Well, hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com. And today I've got special guest doctor JC Folkers on our line and we dive deep into the world of hormonal health, male optimization. We touched female hormonal health and optimization a little bit. I'm probably just going to get him on the podcast a second time to dive even deeper into that. But there was so much to cover. We covered quite a bit, talked about natural ways to improve
testosterone. We talked about exotic supplementation that you can that you can use to improve as well, and we just we just dove deep into male hormone optimization. So thoroughly enjoy the conversation. I've got no doubt that you will take something from this so that for the delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the podcast with Doctor JC Folkers. You're live. Doctor JC Folkers, How are you Sir? I'm doing well, man. How you doing? I'm doing wonderfully well
myself. So we met in person at the Hard to Kill Summit last year and we sat on the couch and talked about hormone health and optimization for probably an hour or so, I think. Seemed like it. Yeah, it was. It was fun. It was it was like, man, I gotta get you on the podcast, dive deeper into this. That's what we're doing here today. You you are the the science man behind the company blokes, correct?
Yeah we have two kind of two sister companies so it's blokes is the men's side of it that's you know where we focus you know it's we have a website that's kind of men facing then we have a a a female side called choose Joy. So it's kind of now it's blokes and joy, you know, for Joy would be for the women. But Yep, that's kind of our, that's our company. I have not been to the women's side yet, but the bloke's website is super clean, man.
Like, you've got everything laid out and organized. Very well done, yeah. Thank you. Oh yeah, we, we, we refined it a few times and just kind of keep keep making improvements and making it, making it easy for people to and accessible for people to get labs done. You know, you know kind of start there with you know, creating awareness with where they are, with their, with their hormone levels and and in other nutrient levels, so. I love it. Where? Where'd the name blokes come from?
There's like an Australian background somewhere there. No not really. We just kind of we kind of you know we'd kind of like that that that word kind of a cheeky name for like like dude you know bloke. We just we just wanted to kind of like our goal was to kind of target just like your your average guy you know not not not some you know you know a lot of times people think when it comes to testosterone and you know getting your your levels
optimized. You know it's just for guys that you know that go that go to the gym. But it's really, this is for all all guys. You know, dads, grandpas, you know, any anyone that just wants to feel better. Totally, totally. Well, what got you into that in the 1st place, man? Like what? What got you on the path to get the science background that you do and dive into to hormone optimization? Were you struggling with something personally or what was the the catalyst there?
You know what? That I I definitely was struggling with something personally I would say when I was in my early 30s and here's the thing too, like you know back in my 20s and I've I've always been a gym guy. I've always been into working out you know I've been a athlete I've done bodybuilding I've I've competed and and you know I've take taken my fair share of like the those pro hormone supplements. Remember when they were really popular G&C and things like that.
I I would take the, you know, I'd get my hands on somebody my friends would too. Some of these supplements that would boost your testosterone and you'd feel great. You'd be like, Oh my gosh, my strength's going through the roof. This is in my 20s. I'm taking these things. Well, then I by the time I'm in my in my early 30s I was just crashing.
I just, I I felt in fact my wife was one that brought it up to me. It was like man you just kind of feel like you you seem like you have no energy and just to make you're tired all the time And and I was and so I remember getting my getting my testosterone levels checked in
my 30s. I think I was like 32 years old and I went to a doctor's office and my testosterone levels, my testosterone was total, was like 220 and and at the time I, you know, I just I actually got on something called HCG That's what the, the nurse practitioner I went to she recommended and that actually at the time seemed to pull me out of it. Did a little bit of HCG, got my testosterone levels kind of back to I don't know nothing too crazy like 600.
But at least I was able to go to the gym again and and and feel the energy feel the energized have libido. But yeah, that was kind of like the my personal kind of experience with like low hormone levels at a pretty young age where, you know, I thought I was too young to be experiencing these things. Kind of embarrassed, you know, how how, how low my my testosterone was. But really, I started kind of diving into all different natural ways to optimize testosterone around that time.
Nice. Nice. And focus, yeah. And focus on everything I could to kind of keep it, keep it as optimized as I could for for as long as I could. And so that's really what kind of started me having at least an interest in in in hormone optimization for for men. And were you going to like a like a university or studying this or anything like how was that done from like a a career path setting?
Excuse me. So so I basically went did go to initially in University of Nebraska Lincoln and got a degree in exercise science and but then I went I went on this to chiropractic school at Cleveland Chiropractic College and you know that's where we kind of you know learned all of the things as far as nutrition natural standpoint after that after Bush graduate I I have since enrolled in different different online functional medicine programs and I'm still
part of one it's it's it's called FMU functional medicine University and and and I I have access to some of the best you know latest state-of-the-art studies and research that that's being done. And I I try to stay abreast of all these different things as they continue to develop. So the the the the basically the the the field is known as functional medicine which is ever evolving ever changing and it's something that I like will will never stop learning about.
But really at the end of the day it comes down to like the root root cause approach to you know what what we can do to to help the body optimize itself by by addressing you know, nutritional deficiencies, toxicities in just helping the body function. It's, it's best you know, using lifestyle, diet, nutrition, exercise, sleep, stress reduction, all all the fun things. I love it. I definitely appreciate the holistic approach that functional medicine practitioners take towards
things. Absolutely very counter to what a lot of the traditional western medicine approach entails. Do you feel like that? Like how the how the traditional Western medicine practitioners and doctors see functional medicine, do you think that tide is turning or do you think there's kind of a a stigma there still? I I definitely feel like it is turning. I know I have, I have a lot of doctor friends that are just kind of tired of, you know, just seeing patients not get not
improved. You know, at the end of the day, most doctors, the way they're trained is, is to address pathology. You know, like look at even the way they look at labs. It's like, you know, looking at a lab. And if if you're in the standard range, you're considered normal. But if you're outside that standard range, well, there there's a, there's a, there's a drug that's that's designed to treat whatever condition, whatever symptom you're suffering from.
But at the end of the day, these patients are not getting better. And so I think a lot of, a lot of doctors are just getting frustrated. They're trying to, they're trying to look out more and maybe pay more attention to some of the studies, some of these other guys that are kind of like, you know, front runners of just, you know, educating the masses about, you know, like Peter Ortilla and guys like
that. Just, you know, talking more about lifestyle, exercise, nutrition and how that actually can make a bigger difference than than some of these, some of these pills for every I'll. Yeah, totally. What? What was the FMU approach like? What was the, what's their curriculum like? Is it a a pretty extensive program to get into or like how? Does that rule. Yeah you have well you first have to be you have to have a you have to have a doctorate
degree to enroll it with them. So you have to you have to kind of it's kind of more advanced kind of level so but but their their curriculum is is very very comprehensive and so in fact you can go you go through the curriculum you get your your certification then you can you can sit for a test that allows you to be accredited it's an accredited test that allows you to be certified as a clinical nutritional expert which is
pretty cool. I haven't, I haven't completed all of the the all of the levels to to sit for that test yet, but I I plan to eventually because I'm so busy with with work. No, totally man. What is their stance on like the ketogenic diet from a nutritional standpoint as a whole? Like? Are they pretty receptive to it? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, definitely. You know, anything, anything that's kind of, you know, like ketogenic diet or carnivore diet that's kind of like a, you know, a more or less a elimination diet to me is, is, is is definitely a way to go because you're you're helping the body take a break from all the pro inflammatory you know types of foods that that have been shown to be, you know linked to autoimmunity or or inflammation in the body I. Totally agree ma'am.
Well, let's let's dive into to hormone optimization a little bit. So what was the, I guess you were going through this personally, Could you pinpoint what the, the driving issue was for you? Like what was the the thing that was leading to the reduction in total testosterone and what did? You do to get that dialed up? Yeah, I think so. Something along the lines, you know, there's different there. There's so many different components to testosterone when it comes to low testosterone.
I like to kind of like break it down to like maybe 4 areas. Like one is definitely poor sleep. I've always struggled with sleep. Sleep's something that I think, you know, I'm still trying to always optimize. Wasn't getting very good sleep then, definitely getting better sleep now, but but also gut health is something that I at the time was was was working on, was struggling with and improved. There's also stress. I was working, I had my own clinic and I was working many hours.
I was sometimes working 80 hours a week. So stress is a huge killer, probably, if not probably the biggest killer of testosterone. So Cortisol's that hormone that when it's high it it will kind of caused testosterone levels to to plummet and so you know making sure you're addressing stress, addressing sleep, reducing inflammation, optimizing gut health and and then just kind of you know and just kind of making sure that you're addressing those things.
So I I also feel like for me I was when I was taking those other supplements that was that was artificially increasing my testosterone it when I stopped taking them it was shutting down my body's production. So it kind of, it kind of caused my production to to to kind of get artificially shut down. So that's why taking that HCG was something that kind of helped jump start my body's production again.
And then so as my testosterone levels improved again, I felt, I actually felt I started sleeping better. I felt I was able to handle stress better. I felt that my inflammation went down because those are all things that that testosterone does does improve. And so, so I started kind of like really digging into like all the different ways to kind of like help optimize testosterone for men and for women. In fact, that's kind of what we do now for blokes and joys.
We we not just focus on men but also testosterone, health for women as well. Yeah, no, it's it's it's like a lot of women don't realize how important testosterone is for them as well. Like, people just kind of assume that specifically speaking for males. But it goes both ways, without a doubt, for sure. It's interesting, man. When when we were talking, I was, I don't know, I was like halfway through my prep at that point and I had been getting blood work done pretty
consistently. And I got blood work done at the end of my prep when I was down like 3.9% body fat and my total testosterone was 86. Pretty crazy, that is, that is so low. Yeah, What was wild though is like my energy levels and you know, my strength, like all that was pretty solid. Like I never really had any issues there. Not much libido obviously when your testosterone's 86, but I was so hyper focused on the prep, that wasn't really where my mind was anyways.
But it's been like pretty much doubling ever since then now that I'm eating more food. But it is crazy how low the body can take things and people like how that affects people. Is is so different from one individual to the next. But I'm all about getting things optimized, especially from a natural standpoint. Getting more food in, getting more body fat, having having a a really low body fat. People don't realize that has a profound effect on total
testosterone. That's why staying super lean year round is not not ideal. No. I mean here's the thing when it comes, when it comes down to it like you know when you're getting your body fat that low the amount of the deficit you have to stay in to to continue to drop your body fat is is pretty significant and and the body's so smart. Our bodies are smarter than we
give them credit for. So it's you know if you're if you're taking you know taking your body fat percent down to like you said you said 3.8% which is insane low you're you're basically prioritizing survival. You know your body's like like look man we we need to survive it is not it is no longer prioritizing reproduction. So, so you see in the you see a shift in in hormones to try to to try to kind of facilitate this. And so that's where we see a drop in testosterone.
I see the same thing when guys endurance athletes for example when they're training you know ultra marathon runners they you know they I mean they put tons of miles on their bodies you know running running 6080 miles a week. Their testosterone's the same thing very low because they're they're operating in this deficit you know burning so many calories versus how much they're taking in.
It's it's just that it's just your your body's like oh we we are we are in a in a in a fight or flight state we are we're in survival and so that's when you see the a shift in the in the hormones and so and so when when you do when you get good sleep when you eat you know good healthy fats you know healthy foods when you are are managing stress you see an improvement in in testosterone and and you see those things drop when when the
bodies you know kind of like in a in a fight or flight or survival state. Completely agree. Well, I kind of wanted to steer this conversation in a way that is very applicable to people listening. So let's start with you know what? What is your primary, you know, client avatar, so to speak. Like when guys are coming to you looking for help and getting things optimized, like what does that demographic typically look like? You know any these days it is
all over the place. I honestly feel like you know for a while there we were we were mainly targeting we we were we were mainly targeting guys that were kind of like you know your your gym guys your guys that are like really fit and trying to like you know just like look for ways to improve testosterone more than than they are anymore. Now it's like I mean it's it's it's your average guy.
It's you know it's your, it's you know it's it's your maybe 40s, 50s, even 60 year old individuals that are you know just kind of like looking to optimize, looking to feel a little bit better, have more energy, have that, have that zest back, have you know have have that little like that get their libido back. Just kind of like people are just kind of wanting to kind of like feel better than they used to. And So what we typically encourage guys to do is get labs done a lot.
A lot of guys have never have ever looked at their testosterone levels or or or or or had a doctor test their testosterone. We want to look at some other things too. We want to look at testosterone. We want to look at things like heart health. We want to look at liver function. We want to look at kidney function. We want to look at inflammatory markers, immune health, you know, certain certain nutrients like vitamin D, homocysteine.
So we want to look at the the whole body and given it you know getting an idea like what what's going on, what areas we can we can start to address what blind spots might exist because a lot of times guys are they're they're deficient in certain things and they're low in certain things where they have a lot of inflammation. And so that's why we want to start with with creating that awareness and encouraging guys
to get labs done. And then from there we can obviously give give some recommendations on ways to improve their health. And so, like I said, these are guys, these are dads, These are, you know, Grandpa's, These are, you know, just these are like your average, everyday, everyday guy that just wants to feel better. And how how long have y'all been working with people now? We are. We've almost been in business now for almost three years. Very cool.
What kind of trends have you seen in gathering all this data and looking at these lab works over that time like are are are numbers trending down overall are they getting better? What? What?
Is like some common denominators so so one thing that I I have been shocked to to see is pretty low testosterone and often times in guys that I I have to double check their age like I'm talking guys in their late 20s early 30s testosterone levels like sometimes in the twos and three, three hundreds and what you think the like low that is. Well, there's there's so many potential variables. I don't know if it has to do with if, if it's if it's a lot of it has to be lifestyle
anymore. I think there's just one thing I like to say is we're just not the same men our grandfathers were, excuse me, you know, 'cause they're just, they're just definitely a a difference in like the amount of physical physicality that guys have today compared to, you know, 30-40 fifty years ago. But also I think there's there's been changes in in foods, in diet, in you know maybe the use some of it could be the use of of electronics and technology.
But there's definitely been a trend in in testosterone that seems appears to be just decade after decade, it continues to drop. And then. It's kind of interesting, man. Like I've I've had several people on the podcast talk about hormone health and. When you look at the lifestyle factors that have the biggest pull on what your hormone markers are, you know, sleep, stress, food, it's like all of those have trended so far the wrong direction over the past, you know, 100 years.
Like, it's it's wild. Like people aren't spending near as much time outside. They're much more stressed. They're in front of screens all the time. They're not eating the right food. They're not sleeping properly. And that's like the All that in tandem just wrecks havoc on your hormone health.
All those things I mean it's it's it's shocking it's shocking how much how much lower and and and younger you know guys are having low testosterone just and and and The thing is and so a lot of guys just comes to us so like look like look man I I want to increase my testosterone but I you know I don't want to start TRT because you know I'm they're they're maybe they want they want to have children they're they want to prioritize
fertility still and and and that kind of thing which which in the last couple years what we've actually been prescribing very often is something that's pretty is pretty effective is is called inclomophene have you are you familiar with inclomophene. No. Enlighten me. So, so inclomophene is, is, is pretty, pretty interesting. So there's a medication that's been around for, I want to say is this, this medication has been around since the like 1960s. It's called, it's called
clomophene. The name brand version for it is Clomid. So it's that was FDA approved for fertility for women. However it's been used often off label for men for increasing testosterone and as well as increasing sperm production. So but clomiphene has two isomers. It has one called zoclomiphene and it has another called inclomiphene. The zoclomiphene isomer has like a 30 day half life. So it's like it's in your system for quite a while.
The the in clomiphene isomer is has like a 10 hour half life. So what what they've done is they've isolated that that one isomer called in clomiphene and it's classified as a Serm selective estrogen receptor modulator. So what what it does is when you take it it, it stimulates the body's production of luteinizing hormone. And what will then happen is so the pituitary will release something called luteinizing hormone or LH for short.
And the LH will then stimulate the cells of the testicles, the lydic cells, to produce more testosterone. So you're actually taking this medication to stimulate your body's own production of testosterone and it also helps improve sperm production. So. So these guys are taking a medication to improve sperm production and improve testosterone production and it doesn't shut down their own production as would like TRT.
So, so, so it so it. So it seems to me it's very effective because a lot of these guys are taking this medication and then and they're not, they're not like, you know, affecting fertility or things like that. And they're feeling good and they're having increased libido and they're having, you know, better recovery at the gym and a better sleep and all these things without having to give themselves a shot of testosterone.
Totally. Let's let's let's segment this between natural routes and I guess enhanced routes because I feel like you know for me personally I I compete in natural bodybuilding. They've got an incredibly extensive you know list of banned substances. So it it's Wild Well they won't allow. So let's talk about all the things that people can do naturally that would not cause them to pop negative on any of these, you know, performance tests.
And then let's talk about the the exogenous hormone route that that would disqualify you from a natural setting but is incredibly effective from a health and well-being standpoint. Absolutely do. Do you, do you happen to know, Rob? Do you do you know if they allow DHEA in natural bodybuilding? So it's weird, man. Every federation's a little bit
different. The WNBF federation that I compete in is probably the strictest and they they have a ban on DHEA, but it's for a specific amount of time. I may actually just Google that while we're talking, 'cause I want to see what their exact time frame is, but I know they allow it, but not like right up until show day.
Yeah. And and and so that would be kind of like that would be one that's kind of you know in the Gray area because DHEA is is something that it's a you know it's a hormone secreted by the adrenal glands and it it's also a precursor to testosterone. So both men and women can take
DHEA. I've. I've actually seen a lot of women results blood results taking it. It's funny I had this one gal she she was she her husband had 100 milligram DHEA capsules so she was taking his capsules and and her her testosterone shot up to like 350 and and she was like and I said I'm just I'm just curious how you feeling. She's like I feel amazing. She's like, she's like I'm going to the gym. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm recovering great from my workouts I'm I have libido. I I'm like cool.
So, but it it it definitely has been shown to improve testosterone in both men and women. So I just pulled it up here. It says from their site all hormonal precursors in there were tablets and isomers our band used. The following substances require 90 day three months of abstinence prior to competing in the INBFWNBF or Affiliate federations for the first time,
which includes DHEA and 7K DHA. So technically if somebody uses that they would have a three month span without using it prior to competing for the first time. I guess if you're already an athlete within the WNBF, you would not be allowed to use that. Got it. Yeah. So that's what that's one that's that now we know if it's and then so as far as like some natural things that we have.
So we so we do have a product that we that we formally called levels and it has it. It has things in it that can help boost testosterone, things like Tonkat Ali, it has fenugreek. It, it has Ashwagandha has been shown, Ashwagandha has been shown to not only, you know, improve testosterone because what it does is it it helps blunt the effects of high cortisol. So when we're able to drop, you know, lower cortisol you're you're helping your body, you know, produce more testosterone.
Ashwagandha has been shown to improve libido and improve recovery. So in in addition to moving, moving testosterone, Tongkat Ali, I don't think they fully understand the the, the 100%, the mechanism of how Tongkat Ali works, but it it has been shown to be effective at increasing testosterone in a lot of lot of individuals. So I have used that and they often times pair that with the fidozia, right? Fidozia correct. Yeah. Have you done that stack?
I have done that stack. I bought the Fidozia but I wanted to make sure that it was not in the banned list. I don't think it is. I don't think it is here. I got that from the live Momentous brand and I believe that they have all of their stuff third party tested against the WADA you know, anti doping list which is what Debun BF uses. So I'm pretty sure I'm in the clear there, but I have not actually used it yet.
Thanks. Yeah. And I mean here's the thing these are there's some other things that I would recommend that that's have have been shown to help indirectly boost testosterone. There's a there's a compound known as phosphatidylserine which is also another kind of like a it's it kind of functions as an adaptogen to help lower cortisol especially especially cortisol that can be the type of cortisol that's high from someone that may be overtraining like like like an exercise
induced cortisol. So you can take that at night and it and it's been shown and it helps with sleep. So and for that matter things that enhance sleep also can indirectly help boost testosterone. So phosphatiloserine and then your your different magnesiums and things like that vitamin D adequate vitamin D is also very instrumental and important for optimal you know testosterone production. Trying to think of of of what else is is a is a natural thing. Can you think of any others?
Those are the top ones that have come to mind, yeah, other than the obvious lifestyle factors. Right. I I will share you this with you. This is interesting. I just because I just I just spoke to this patient last week so. So there's a patient she she was a collegiate A collegiate athlete and she kind of put on some weight and you know kind of got out of shape and she was a she was a volleyball player and then just decided like 3-4 months ago to switch to a
carnivore diet. And and so I I I happened to do a follow up with her when she was like you know like I said four months into this journey and what was mind blowing is is she did another blood draw and she said look I'm feeling better than ever. My sleep is better. My recovery from exercise is is better. I'm I'm getting stronger and I'm looking at her labs. I'm like are you did I ask are you are you taking TRT? Sorry. She's like, no, dude.
Her testosterone went from like it was like 18 to like 70. Wow. And that's just from switching to Carnivore. Huh. From just switching to Carnivore. What? You know what? That's all I do. Previously, Like was she eating a pretty cramped night to begin with? Yeah, I mean I think, I think she was kind of, you know, she was eating eating processed, processed foods and carbs and and and and sugars and things like that.
Just kind of, you know she might have been drinking some alcohol here and there but but yeah, she completely went 180 like just straight carnivore and man and it it did a number on her. I mean, it was like she she couldn't. I mean she couldn't believe how, how, how good she felt. Like in every category, better sleep, less aches and pains, better recovery, better mood, better libido. To see, like, how different dietary interventions have such a profound effect on hormonal health.
Like, I feel like if you are eating a properly formulated diet and you have adequate amounts of dietary fat, which is obviously going to be a precursor to, you know, your your, your lipids, your cholesterol, which is precursor testosterone. That's going to help. A lot of people are under consuming fat, which is going to wreak havoc on hormone health. But a lot of people don't realize how much a standard American diet, especially one that includes a lot of alcohol, 100% hormone.
Health 100%. Alcohol is just, I don't know, man. Like it's hard. It's hard for me to ever justify drinking. I'm the same way I it it never it it it it it never outweighs the negatives. You know it's just it's but but but the yeah, to your point too. Like that's why I like foods like eggs. Eggs are like one of the most perfect food because you get the fat, you get the cholesterol, you get the protein. That's what I that's why I try
to recommend a lot of guys eat. You know, they're trying to, like, increase your testosterone from a dietary standpoint is, you know, eat more eggs. Do you think there's any truth into some foods being legitimate aphrodisiacs? Like, is oysters really gonna make you horny or is that just a wives tale? That's a good question. It's never had that effect on me. But I I don't never had, I never had any issues with with needy.
I mean, I love raw oysters, but I don't ever notice a profound difference one way or the other after after eating them. Yeah, I, I, I I don't know if there's really merit to that 100% or not, but I think, I think those foods, when they boost testosterone, I think that's what kind of will will help the enhance the libido totally. Now when it comes to cortisol, so a lot of people, you know, think of cortisol as being inherently bans to try to minimize it. On all fronts.
But cortisol is good in the proper amounts and you have to have it. So what is the best way to to test to see if you are operating in a healthy range? As far as Cortisol's concerns, that's just gonna be a a routine lab test as well. You know what? To be honest with you. So in my, in my in the old days, like I my brick and mortar clinic, I you know, 'cause I recommend saliva when it comes to like like an actual like an A real inaccurate cortisol. And there's a test that I used
to order. It was called Adrenal stress Index. So it would it'd allow, it would allow me to basically give the patient like multiple vials so they would basically collect saliva in the morning, collect saliva again like around lunchtime, afternoon, evening. So they're they're they're able to see the trend and the shift in their cortisol levels throughout the day because unfortunately yeah you're you're right if if you if you get a
morning cortisol. Because The thing is when we get when we order blood draws for people sometimes they're sometimes they're early in the morning. Sometimes people go to the to the lab in the afternoon or whatever and it's like the it's like but you're only getting 111 A one time cortisol check which isn't isn't super conclusive.
I mean it helps but to to see I mean especially if it's like if you know it's in the morning and their cortisol's like it's like 5. It's like whoa, your cortisol's too low or if it's like at 30, oh, it's too high. It's like that. We know that that there's something going on there. But I ideally I like to see it
throughout the day. So you can see the trend like oh your cortisol starts out here and then it and then it goes to here and it follows the the proper trend where it should be high in the morning and it should gradually drop, drop, drop and it should be low at night and then and then melatonin is starts to peak at night.
But some individuals if they have like a lot of just you know years and years of stress or or some underlying inflammation or or something going on that often times their their, their cortisol could be just like all over the place. I mean you you, you, you have one person where their cortisol's just like super low all day long and that's not good. You want you actually want some cortisol because then their body's not able to adequately
modulate inflammation. Or then you have you, you have somebody that's just so, so high stress, their cortisol's too high, that you don't want that either. That's why it's sometimes ideal to get get multiple multiple checks throughout, you know, multiple collections throughout
the day. Yeah, I think any marker that is highly dependent upon your circadian rhythm you you pretty much have to go the saliva round and test multiple times throughout the day because the simple blood draw is just not gonna give you a comprehensive picture. Correct. Yeah. And then and then when then you're able to kind of see address like you know that that person's particular pattern like if if somebody has super low cortisol.
I mean there's things you can do to recommend to kind of help like you said like to kind of boost cortisol where you want, where you want it to to to to kind of match that circadian rhythm or some people their cortisol's way too high at night. You want to you want to blunt that, you want to bring that down. So there's certain and there's a way, certain supplements and products you can use to kind of like help facilitate that. What is the verdict on melatonin?
Supplemental. Melatonin is there? Is the jury still out as to whether or not that truly has an impact on endogenous production? Or is it not related at all? You know what I, I, I haven't been a fan of melatonin supplementing with especially some of some of the dosing amounts of some of the products I see out there are kind of high in fact it's high you know high to a point where the like where the body doesn't even make that much melatonin, you know
endogenously. So I I'm not a huge fan of supplementing with melatonin when it comes to improving something, improving sleep. I'll I'll recommend things things like you know, you know magnesium I'll recommend like L theanine I recommend inositol. I'll recommend in some cases 5 HTP. Just other other things that are kind of more not. I mean, melatonin's a hormone. So, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of interesting how they
readily have it available. Yeah, I've seen some crazy high dosage recommendations for it that. I have two. I I have two. I've never tried it, but I but yeah, I mean in in these super high doses like those, those are levels that the body doesn't, doesn't even ever produce. I had to. I don't know if it was on a podcast or if I was just talking to somebody, I don't remember, but they were, they were doing high dose melatonin suppositories. Have you ever heard of that? I have.
Yeah, but it's like the dosage that they were telling me. It was just like astronomically high. Like I never even heard you being that high. I didn't know people could supplement it with that. High do you do you know the like the the reasoning of of taking that that high amount of melatonin? I I've heard different stances on it.
I mean the people that tend to take it that much in a in a sitting they they're under the assumption that it doesn't affect in Donna's production at all which may be true. I don't know. I don't know what the what the final verdict is on that and it they they notice a profound improvement in sleep and the the benefit of it being taken you know as a Suppository is it's obviously got that delayed release you know so it works throughout the entire night.
But for me, it's like I just, I don't want to have to be dependent on anything from a sleep standpoint. Yeah, even like we even have a product that has, it's a sleep product. Like any kind of like supplement that I take for sleep, I try to just use it like when I when I just like maybe I've travelled and in a in a different time zone. I just try to, yeah. I don't like to rely on on these things to take it every night for sure. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I've one. I've.
I've really tried to dial in my sleep Hygiene, 'cause that that's. I mean as far as environmental factors that wreck havoc on my hormonal health, it's without a doubt sleep and stress. Like being a business owner, I got the stress and I don't ever sleep enough. So like I need to get that done and but I don't really ever see myself getting more sleep quantity because I just, I've got a routine and I kind of stick with it. That's just how my body operates.
So I need to optimize the sleep that I am getting. So I haven't like a structured routine, you know, kind of booking bookends on the day before I go to bed and when I wake up has been monumental for getting my sleep quality dialed in. But yeah. Do you, do you do you wear any, have any wearables or where you're able to, like, measure your sleep quality? Yeah, so I've got a garment, I've got the OR ring for sleep, predominantly the OR rings, what I use for the sleep metrics.
And my my deep and my REM sleep are typically pretty solid, more so deep than the rim, cause the rim oftentimes comes on the later latter half of the sleep cycle, and that's when I'm waking up. Like I wake up at 3:00. And if I ever do allow myself to sleep longer, I notice I get much more R.E.M. because it comes in that later phases. But I I don't typically sleep much longer than that. So I I sacrifice the REM sleep, but my deep sleep is always about an hour to an hour and a half.
Well, you wake up at 3:00 AM everyday. Yeah, yeah. And I go to bed at like nine, 9:30 or so. But yeah, I prefer to wake up early. Early. Yeah, well, no one else is emailing me or contacting me or deeming me at 3:00 so I can get a lot of stuff done before the world wakes up. No, I I agree, man.
That's that's so true. But yeah, so let's talk about the as it pertains to what people think happens over the long haul to hormonal health, 'cause I feel like a lot of guys are the assumption that, you know, I'm getting, you know, anything past 30, you just start to see a steady decline. Is that in line from a natural physiological response, or is that more so the environmental factors that we now find ourselves in? And it shouldn't be that way.
Yeah, I I don't think it should be that way. I definitely feel like there's you know we're in a day and age where you know environment like you said lifestyle factors have taken such a toll that it is definitely compromising our our endocrine system. I mean there if you look there's there's infertility issues more than ever there you know a lot of people are are just you know having having to you use use IVF
you know to get pregnant. And I mean there's there's there's been a there's been a a shift in in in hormones both for men and women and it definitely it definitely has there's something going on. There's not like it's not like a
just a a a natural phenomenon. You know, it's kind of some there's some kind of like environmental or lifestyle or I don't know if it's if it's like all these different viruses and things that are going around contributing to it either, but definitely something's going on but. It's interesting because like, I don't know what the epigenetic effect is, 'cause I mean like like what my lifestyle consists of is gonna have an epigenetic effect, you know, 3 generations,
4 generations deep. I don't know how much that is related to hormone health necessarily. Like, I don't know if my testosterone levels throughout my existence are gonna be replicated in my kid, his kid and his kid. I don't know if that is gonna have as much of an epigenetic effect or not.
I don't know what the science says on that, but I I I feel like it would have to have some degree of of, you know, effect on it. Yeah, that that that would be, that would be so interesting to to to to find out to learn because definitely it was definitely just been something you know a shift in like just in hormones. I I like I you see younger you know younger kids like maturing and growing faster than I don't know.
I, I if you notice this like when I was a kid, like you know, when I was, you know, in like junior high, we were all pretty small. Like now I see kids nowadays in junior high, there's there's they're, they're like the sizes of high school kids. Yeah. Yeah. And not necessarily a good way. Not exactly. Not in a good way.
They're, I mean they're big and it's just, yeah, it's just there's there's even when I look back at like like for example pictures of like when my parents were like in you know, you know in their 20s, whatever. Everyone was very skinny very lean, you know, healthy looking. And now it's just, you know, we just we just a different day and age. We're just, there's a lot. We're just bigger people, you
know? Well, I think a lot of it, I mean like the the prevalence of type 2 diabetes in adolescence is an alarming metric. But when you look at how these kids during their, you know, years of development are overweight and just using a totally, you know, totally compromised diet like that is going to most definitely have a lingering effect on their hormonal health as they reach, you know, puberty and development past that.
I mean, like if you were an adolescent, you're growing through the years when your your testes are developing and you're eating nothing but sugar, not ample dietary fat and you're overweight. Like you're not going to be producing ample testosterone at an optimal level when you're in
your 20s and 30s areas. No, I think and I think we're on to something with that, with that that that that whole mindset because when it comes to men and and the fact that like so many so many Americans are overweight now especially you know especially men are just overweight compared to 30-40
years ago. I I went to a junior high wrestling tournament a couple weeks ago I was shocked at just how major kids wrestling in in junior high and they're they were all like pretty pretty much obese you know like just had a lot. I didn't see really any definition in any any of these kids muscle definition. And so when when when a man has, when a male has excess body fat, that body fat essentially responds like like like an ovary
of of a of a of a woman. What it does is so body fat actually has a high amount of something called an aromatase. So what happens is when our, when when our body is making testosterone and when you have this excess adipose tissue, that adipose tissue, what it will do, it'll convert that testosterone
into estradiol. So. So we're seeing that that itself could be a, a, a significant component of like why you're having a lot of guys with testosterone that's otherwise is, is, is is not converting into estrogen because of the excess body fat. Yeah. Yeah, it it is crazy how much body fat plays a contributing role here. What what about sex, hormone binding, globulin. So I've always been on the higher end of the spectrum with regard to the the healthy range of SHBG.
But I've noticed, like in all the research that I've done it that seems like an incredibly individualized thing. Like like there's not really a whole lot that you can do if if you are dialing in your nutrition, everything and all that's good. You may just simply be on one of the spectrum or the other. But that doesn't necessarily, you know, indicative of your hormone health overall.
One thing I have seen is this is especially when individuals are for example, doing a lot of of fasting or if they're in a deficit of, you know, losing, losing weight, getting their body fat done. I do see that driving SHBG up more so as well As for men, you know. So when guys in Alaska patient here, do you, do you participate in like do you is it fast or do you do some intermittent fasting? Oh yeah, I do it. I fast every day. I don't eat until like 2:00
whatever. And these guys have high SHBG and then when they kind of like move away from that or or make changes, I'll see their SHBG drop. Interesting. So you think it's? A little bit, yeah. There. Well, there could, there definitely could be, it's, it's definitely insulin related to some degree. But I also, I also do see SHBG being being high in individuals with high estrogen as well. For example, women that are on some sort of like birth control, their SHBG is often through the
roof. It's like super high because the estrogen will drive it up. But yeah, there, there, and and there is also some individuality that seems to be like some genetic components, some 'cause I do see some individuals that have very low SHBG and it's just like they their, their it's just their testosterone. It's like, it's like they metabolize your testosterone so quickly, 'cause they can't, they can't hold on to it. Yeah, yeah.
You mentioned birth control and I mean, I'm like guys, so I probably do not have a leg to stand on to really talk about this. But. It is wild how much that has an impact on endogenous production as well from like just a overall health and well-being standpoint. Like you know they and they don't talk about that in most, most settings like women get on birth control just kind of flippantly because they don't
want to have a painful period. Like there's a lot of factors at play there, but there's not really any discussion as to what that does long term downstream. And I wish there was a conversation around that. Because once once Crystal and I started diving into that, it's like, OK, we we got her off of that and we started, you know, using you know, temperature measurements and tracking things much more closely because we
wanted to be smart. But it's like just simply getting on a a birth control pill or something flippantly without doing much research is probably not a wise move. No, I totally agree. I mean The thing is, is with women, you know, you never really know how genetically how like their body is going to metabolize estrogen. In fact there's different estrogen metabolites, some of which are pro inflammatory and not not desirable.
But you know you know a lot of times these doctors just just put up a woman like any other woman on on birth control without knowing that they may convert their estrogen into like the more inflammatory not ideal estrogen and and and they they tend to suffer the consequences from that weight gain pain. You know they just just feeling lousy and that's yeah it's just even though that's a hormone they're putting them on and definitely it can and will have like you know UN unknown long
term side effects. Yeah, I mean anything like you stop thinking about it makes total sense. Like you are literally placing something in your body that is going to be a sustained release of hormones at all times, like that is going to have an impact downstream. You're going to oh, 100%, yes. 100%, All right. Well, let's talk about, I'm trying to think man like how how do you want to tackle the the optimization standpoint from you know exotic supplementation for guys.
Let's just tackle guys first, because I feel like that is something I feel like within the the realm of peptides and HRTTRT, like that is an ever growing sector of male optimization. And right now it seems as though it's the Wild West. You've got clinics popping up everywhere. You have a lot of people that are backed by science and you have a lot of people that are are not backed and then they're just, you know, going in guns blazing, not really know what they're doing.
So like how is blokes different in that department? Definitely. We we definitely do approach each each individual as an individual like all of our all of our programs are are very customized to that person. That's why when we start with labs, you know I kind of mentioned like one of the potential therapies that we might offer guys and is is in clomiphene. It might, it might just be supplements to start out with. It might be in clomiphene, it might be in some cases it might
be it might be TRT. But that that would be when that guy, I mean that individual like that would be the best option for them. Now even if we do put a guy on testosterone replacement therapy, this is something where we have the philosophy where we we're gonna with the dosing, we're gonna start low and move slow. We're not gonna, you know, just you know, unfortunately like you said, like a lot of these clinics, they, they shoot guys
to the moon. They want you guys to feel like like Superman. And problem with that is when you're dosing these guys too high, a lot of these clinics where they do, they'll put a guy on a high dose testosterone, and right out the gate they'll put him on like an estrogen blocker, which I'm not a huge, I'm not a fan of, of a lot of these estrogen blockers. In fact, if you're dosing a guy appropriately with testosterone, he should never need an
aromatase inhibitor. In fact, you're doing more harm than good when you're blocking estrogen too low. Estradiol actually provides a lot of benefits for men, Heart health benefits, brain health benefits, bone density benefits even it even contributes to libido.
A lot of the a lot of the things that we seem to attribute to testosterone actually comes from estradiol, which is, But you know a lot of these clinics like you said the they'll put these guys on on high, high TRT and they'll put them on an on an an atrozole or some sort of aromatase inhibitor.
Then then their estradiol is like 10 and then you're actually doing more harm than good to that guy because there there is literature that shows when a guys estradiol level is that low his risk of dying of all cause mortality can go up to like 3 like over 300% wow. From having low estradiol. So, so yeah, we we approach every guy as an individual find out like you know what, what is it he needs to optimize his testosterone. You know, what's his age, what's
his goal? What's you know where's he at in his life, Is he having you want to have more kids And then come up with the with the plan that that that fits him and his family And then we're going to monitor him closely and make sure that that is done right. There's, I've had. I've. I've tried to figure out the best way to frame this question when I've ever brought people on the podcast that talk about HRT and I still haven't figured it out. So I'm gonna try again with you.
But like, there are certainly purists out there and I'm kind of on that spectrum as a natural bodybuilder who it's like, I just want to figure out what I can do to optimize everything as naturally as possible. Never need to take anything exogenous and just be solid. However, the more we learn, the more the science comes out. It's like there is a point at which you are simply going to perform more optimally with
these exotic substances. Like is that just black and white the case or is it kind of like at what point in your life would the adverse downstream effects of those exotic supplements not overweight the the benefits that you're getting from them? Like at what point does that tipping point occur? Well, I'll tell you what my my dad is 75 years old. He's, he's on TRT and he is health. He's probably the healthiest 75 year old I know because his testosterone is is is optimal.
And so if you look at him and you compare him to his his his his friends that are around his age, it's it's like night and day. So I I'm a I'm a huge fan of of any man. I mean here's the thing there are some guys in their 80s that that that they're like outliers but they have their testosterone is still optimal.
My dad he his, his was not it was kind of not where he's he could tell me he's like hey I'm just not feeling like I'm like I'm recovering from my dad likes to work out likes to lift weights and things like I'm not recovering like I was. I'm not I'm not feeling the energy like I was. I'm not feeling, you know, just I'm just not feeling as good as I was and so I'm like, well let's you know let's get you on some on some testosterone and we did and he it's for him it's
it's been nothing but positive. Yeah.
And like it's probably not going to experience, like the the the benefit of having those, quote, UN quote, optimal levels for someone is his age is likely going to contribute to a significant net positive rather than a net negative, 'cause he probably, I mean the protective aspect of having that higher testosterone from like a, you know, strength conditioning standpoint, from preserving a more lean tissue, like all that factored in is going to outweigh the potential negative side
effect of him 100% minimizing endogenous production. Because I mean, like, realistically, he's not likely going to experience a transformative increase in endogenous production age anyway. No, it's in in that's where like it.
I apologize if I if I misunderstood your question but like I'm I'm just thinking like in terms of like our lifespan it's like it's like the the the the longer we have optimal testosterone the older we have the optimal testosterone obviously the longer we're able to keep lean tissue stay strong be be functional that is definitely 100% gonna be positive for for for us And so I I fortunately I don't need TRT yet I've been I've been taking the eclomiphene and that's
that's been able to keep my testosterone pretty optimal and I kind of go on and off it a little bit I kind of cycle it a little bit but it's just to me that's like definitely the goal is keeping my testosterone optimal and that you know I I I feel I feel like in clomiphene is a little bit more of the of a natural route it's not as it's obviously not as natural as like like Tonkat Ali or fidojia I've tried those they didn't really do much for me. Yeah, what?
What, what would you consider 'cause I mean, like with regards to the, the lab test, when people go in, they get a lab test, they see what their testosterone is, you know, depending on where you get your test results, I mean, they have like a a an optimal range going from like 200 to 800. That's a pretty broad range. Yeah, no, such a good question. So what what would you categorize optimal being for
those guys? Perfect. Yeah I I always want to see a guy at least 700 to 1100 that's that's optimal and and then so that's like optimal total testosterone. Now you you you kind of alluded to it like with with the SHBG like free testosterone is actually more impact more important than total testosterone because that's the testosterone that's actually bio
available. So we want, we want to you know we want to be able to see the see where the free testosterone is and like you know that that I want to see, depending on the calculation is 20 to 25 is where you want to see the the, the, the free tea for it for for it being optimal. And that rain. That that's where people should strive to be, regardless of age. Yes. OK. That makes sense. Because like I feel like there is a point.
I mean you certainly don't want to get on TRT too early, especially if all the other environmental factors are not dialed in because then you're just shooting yourself in the foot. You will down regulate your endogenous production and if you're 20 years old you don't want to be doing that. But like once you Crest the point in one's life over the hill, we'll call it whatever that may be for the individual like they like.
You're gonna start just losing muscle at that point if things are drastically down regulated A. 100% I'll share a pretty interesting story with you. I don't give him much time but I'm gonna you might appreciate this. There there was a patient this guy's in his 50s he I started him on in clomiphene. When he when we started out he was at like 380 and he he felt miserable.
Just didn't you know no libido. No no wasn't recovering from exercise and he wanted to go to the gym just had no no desire to. I started him on in clomiphene and his levels went up to like 1300 and he felt like amazing. He's like, Oh my gosh, it. Well, this guy happened to be a an airline pilot and so he went to a a his physical to that he had to have done every like 6 months or so. And the doctor's like, hey man, you you got to stop taking this testosterone. Your levels shot way up.
And he's like, I'm not, I'm not even taking testosterone. He's like, oh, OK well your levels went from like here to here. It's pretty significant. So he just so this guy, he was, he was taking clomiphene for like 6 months, seven months. And so he stopped taking it. And it just so happened we did a lab follow up after he had stopped taking in clomiphene for about two months. He wasn't taking anything. No, no, no testosterone, you know, you know, optimization tool of any kind.
And his levels were still 980 after being off of being clomiphene for two full months. And how did you? Say he was 60. He was. He was like 55. 55, OK. Yeah, so it was really, it was super cool to see the fact that this so this guy, he got on this this medication for like 6 months.
It it it really, it worked for him really well, responded really well to it, stopped taking it for two months and his levels still remained fairly optimal after after being off of it. You you do not see this with TRT. Are there any known adverse effects to the Inclemophane? No man. I mean there, there, there's, there.
The side effects are occur like less than 2% of individuals which which if they do occur they're usually like it's like a mild headache that that a guy might experience but most guys feel no no no adverse or no side effects of inclomiphene. And and you would probably not need to take inclomiphene if your glutinizing hormone production was on point the the. Use case for. That to be if that is down regulated. Yeah, it it.
And it seems to be for whatever reason that seems to be something that I don't know if it's like, you know, a guy, if a guy's been like in like a like a, a a, a deficit for years or whatever, that their luteinized new hormone kind of gets like a little, a little, a little down regulated, little, little low. And then jumping on in clomiphene for a little bit seems to like fire up that whole feedback loop, you know what I
mean? It seems like it activates that whole that whole feedback loop in the body, and then all of a sudden, boom, the body's making it again. Huh. That's interesting, man. For sure. Well, with with you personally, man, let's just kind of round this out with you personally, but like what? What are you doing with your with your diet and sleep and everything now 'cause you're take, you're just taking the clomiphene as far as?
Supplemental. Yep. Yep. I'm so I'm taking clomiphene for for my optimizing my testosterone. I'm like you. I wear aura ring. I try to get to bed. I try to you know get to bed the same time I try to sleep at least seven hours every night. I I'm kind of I kind of follow a pretty pretty carnivore ish keto carnivore kind of kind of a lifestyle very very high animal protein. I'll do.
I'll do very many carbs. If I do, it's kind of I kind of do I do some some bio hacks with with with with certain starches. When I do have carbs, it's it's I'll, I'll take like high amounts of berberine, kind of keep my my 'cause, my A1C, my hem, going A1C is always around like 4.74 point 8. So I keep my metabolic health pretty dialed in. But yeah, man, I I like to lift heavy, man. I lift heavy. I'm always training for for, you
know, heavy weights. Well, that right there is a great way to to boost testosterone. People don't. Absolutely talk about that, but simply. Weight training is one of the best things. Absolutely yes, yes. That's good, man. Yeah, I found AI. Found a gym Rob that here that has £150 dumbbells. Nice. I've been I've been doing all this Dumbo work lately and I don't have anything beyond 100, so I've been scrapping my my hand into the hundreds.
But then I'll put like a a 20 LB dumbbell or a 30 LB Dumbo on top of that and that's just asking for a broken toe. So I need. To test your dumbbells, yeah, I, I yeah, I finally. I've actually found the gym. 150 LB Dumbbell. So I'm gonna have. I'm gonna have to. Play with those a little bit nice. Have some fun. Yeah. So yeah, look heavy. Man, we gotta get lift in together. We have to, yeah. Are are you gonna are you gonna come back to to Omaha anytime soon?
I will definitely be back for do we know what's going on with the hard to kill conference? Is it gonna be I'll find you find out? I don't know for sure. I'll find out. But I know. I know. She's, you know, I know she's probably gonna have another one. I've actually I'm I'm jumping on a call with her tonight so I'll ask you I've been. Meaning to ask you that for a while.
Because I know, I don't think there's anything on the calendar currently, but yeah, if there's something going on, I'll definitely be there, in which case we will absolutely get to work at it. Yeah, there's there. There's a really nice gym that opened up here in Omaha called Vasa. So we have to take you there. Nice, nice. So we'll we'll get a, we'll get a lift in, we'll eat some steaks. We'll just make a day of it. Sounds good, brother.
Awesome, man. Well, I definitely want to get you in back on the podcast, man, because I would love to do a deep dive into the female side of things, dive even deeper into what we talked about today, because. There's just. For so many different rabbit holes than we were. So many things for I mean, we you would you'd be shocked what we do.
I mean, for women it's like it's it's it's it's a travesty how they just, you know, there's not enough information education about testosterone in women especially, you know, the fact that, I mean women make more testosterone than they do estrogen and progesterone. It's it's such a necessary hormone for women. And I've seen it just like completely just be life changing when you get women feeling better, better libido better, sleep better, just, you know,
recovery. So, so it's the same thing for men, man. They they they need it just as much as we do. Yeah, and it like the the natural production of that just drops off a Cliff, you know, peri minimal menopausal years. And it's like, yes, I don't know if you can get that dialed in. The quality of life is likely gonna be much better. Oh, much better. Yeah. We we could talk the next time we talk about like more peptides and things like that as well, so. Yeah, I wanna.
I wanna cover all those topics, man. So we'll definitely do that. Until we talk next, where do people go to find out more about you? Yeah, you can go to my Instagram. It's it's Doctor JCJACEY at Instagram. You can find out about our our Blokes side of things which is get blokes on Instagram and then if you want to go to the website, like you said is is blokes BL. OK, es.co that's where people can order labs.
They can. We even have some some of the peptides that are in supplements that people can order there as well. Nice. And next time we talk, we got to do a deep dive on like your supply chain because I feel like a lot of people are getting this stuff from non reputable sources and I don't think that's the case. Correct, correct. Awesome man. Well brother, always a pleasure. I enjoyed chatting with you at the the conference.
Likewise I'm. Looking forward to the next convo and getting the lift in with you. So there's everything I can do for you, man. Just let me know. I appreciate you, Robin. Thank you so much for this time. You bet, man. Take care, brother. Take take care bro.