From Natural Bodybuilding to Science with Eric Helms

Well hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com and today I have special guest Eric Helms on the podcast. Eric is a PhD, he is a WNBF pro bodybuilder. He is the Science Officer at Team 3 DMJ and he is an amazing, amazing individual. I get the pleasure the honor of competing alongside him this past competitive season.

I spoke with him on numerous occasions backstage and at the judging feedback session, and I just was continually impressed by his character and overall demeanor. He is a wealth of knowledge. He's been in the natural bodybuilding space for quite some time.

He was in it long before I was. I was watching his contents when I was first getting into the space and I really wanted to just pick his brain on his reverse diet, or as he calls it, recovery diet because he and I both competed at Worlds as our final show. So he and I are both in the same stage of our recovery journey. So I wanted to kind of pick his brain and tease out how he structures that, because that is a topic that does not get enough attention.

We talk a little bit about nutrition, we talk a lot about nutrition. We talk about body fat, set points, how to improve one's body fats, how to maintain a healthy composition, post show, how to make natural bodybuilding and changing one's composition in its entirety a healthy, sustainable endeavour. We dive into the science a little bit. We talk about 3 DMJ, We talk about all kinds of things. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy

this conversation. I'm definitely going to have to get him back on the show because there's so many additional things I wanted to pick his brain on that we just simply did not get the chance to cover. So I have absolutely no doubt you will take something from this conversation if natural bodybuilding, changing one's body composition, healthy eating habits is of any interest to you whatsoever. So that for the delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the conversation with Eric Helms and we are live.

Eric Helms. How are you brother? I'm good, Robert. How you doing man? I'm good. I'm excited to be chatting with you man. I had the pleasure of meeting you in person at the Washington show and I chatted with you bits at the judges feedback session afterwards. And I just continue to be impressed by your level of character every time I see you, man.

Well thank you dude that that's that's really a huge compliment for you to say that specifically about my character it means a lot and again just huge congratulations on.

I mean I don't, I wish people could could see the the win you pulled off because you were up against some very, very stiff competition and not only did you win a very competitive lightweight class, but then you win to the overall against a heavyweights heavyweight and then just a very, very good middle weight with some really stand out body parts. And you just brought a conditioning and peak and hardness that was undeniable and you snatched up both the

potential pro cards man. So well done. Hey, I appreciate it, man. That show specifically has been on my radar for quite some time. I competed in that back in 2015 and I got first in my class I believe and then second in the overall. And then I competed in that that show in 2017, and I think the same thing happened. And in 2020, when I had planned on competing, COVID cancelled it all. So that show's been on my sides

for a while and. That's pretty cool, 'cause there there's obviously a story behind that show for myself and and Jeff Albert, who competed in the pro division, that was the, I would say probably the the, the last series of conversations that kind of solidified the future of three DMJ forming at the end of O 9. Jeff and I did multiple shows together. Berto was my wingman and we did

the NGA California together. We did what was then the cap city, now the muscle mayhem and then Jeff lost to Moji Alua in the overall by one point at the mayhem, I had the privilege of being in that overall being a distant third or fourth, I'm not even sure emoji and Jeff. And then being in the same position when we went to the Washington State back when it was still promoted by Kevin. And yeah, at that at that time, I think Jeff actually won by one point beating out Luke Ellis,

another you know, very great heavyweight who got his WBF pro card, not I think the next year in that same show. So there's been a number of people who've that show has been like they're, they're Crucible, like Luke Ellis, Jeff as well as you. And it was pretty cool with Jeff for us to come back to that show 14 years later and just to see it thriving so well. And Aaron Orton now stepping in to do such a good job. And yeah congratulations man.

That's awesome that you were able to to come back and not only like tick that box but like tick it in stone and just etch it like you. You definitely put it down I. Appreciate it man. Well it was, it was cool competing alongside you and Jeff and I mean you got your pro card this year as well and I know that's been quite the quite the journey for you too, man. So it was it was cool to see you cross that finish line. Yeah, dude, that was a very good

experience for me as well. And I had to do every single show I had planned to to make that happen. And I was willing to even, you know, sneak out and try to do one more show in the States couple weeks before Worlds if I had to. But yeah, I was able to finally close the deal and close that chapter after jeez, 14 years of competing for it and having it as a goal for 17 years in October at the the WBF Australia show.

So that was a that was a that was a it was a great season for both of us and it was a privilege to be able to compete at Worlds in the pro Division. Man. So. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I mean the so how many how many shows did you do total this season then? I did a total of five. That's what I did. Five is five is a lot of shows, man. It is it. I think I wanna say it's the most I've ever done. I in O nine, I did 5 shows as well. And then in 2019 I did four.

And then in 2007, my first season as well as 2011, I just did two. But yeah, there's a yeah, it's it's I I I I spaced it out a little bit better this time because I did those five shows in the span of seven weeks, 8 weeks. So it wasn't like 09 or my first show was in I wanna say April or May and then my last show was in September. That was one of the harder seasons I've ever done. So yeah, I, I, I, I I kind of

picked my spots a little better. I got in shape and then I just did all the shows that were remaining in the calendar year. But yeah, you're you're not wrong, man. I don't know if you ever listened to Iron Culture, but we had Natalie Hayes on, who won the women's pro bodybuilding and amateur bodybuilding at them GIF Worlds. But that was I think the 10th or 11th show she did that season.

She's been competing the whole year since, I wanna say May or June and just like all over the States, you know? So yeah, like there are some people out there who make five shows look like just half their season, but that's that's a rare breed, man. She's obviously a rare breed. Yeah, that's wild. I mean, five shows. That was the most I've ever done in the season, for sure. And most of mine were like flip flopping from one end of the US

to the other. And I was driving to most of them with my wife and 15 month old kid. So we were like going back and forth, staying at Koas and just total nonsense man. But it was quite the journey. But yeah, I don't think I'd want to do any more than five shows by any means. Yeah, dude, I'm trying to think what I'd prefer to because it's in some ways driving is worse

and better, right? You know, like you you have to stop to. I mean obviously with a 15 month old that's a whole nother like you win let's we'll just establish that if if this is a a who who who had a, you know, a harder season than you already win just with being a parent. But but yeah, like the the trip to the States from New Zealand is you got to think about it 'cause we're like a day ahead. And depending upon how you go and where you end up going, it's

almost a full day of travel. You know, like it's a 12 hour or 13 hour flight or 14 hour flight depending on whether you're flying into San Francisco, LA or Houston, or if you fly into New York, that's like a 16 hour flight, you know? So yeah, we're kind of not near anything except Australia down here, but driving across the state, same thing, man. It's like, you know, that's that's not a short trip by any

means either. And with these threaded glutes, I don't know about you, but I can't sit down for that long, even on a cushioned seat, without just getting uncomfortable. Yeah, nothing's comfortable when you're this lean for sure. But yeah, it was, it was, it was quite the season, man. But I'll kind of want to talk about, you know you mentioned, I want to talk a lot of things here, but you mentioned that this was 14 years in the making of getting your pro card. I was at 17 years.

I didn't hear you right there. Yeah, so I did my first INBF show in 2009. So, like, if we were to talk about how long have I actually been trying to get on stage to do it? It's 14 years, but I actually attended my first INBFWNBF show in Augusta, GA. I was a test judge in O Six at Rodney Hilaire's show that was

going on there. And that was what I I like, became fully aware of what natural bodybuilding was and looked like because I was kind of only aware of what was in the magazines and the, you know, the NPCIFPB scene. I'd only started lifting in O4 and I started getting competitive aspirations in O6 and and like becoming a big fan

of the sport. And then attending that show meeting Rodney Hilaire starting to follow the I, MB, FW, MB, F reading natural bodily fitness and magazine for all the old school people who remember the pre social media era. And then seeing the overall winner who I would describe him as like a taller Natty Tom Platts. He just headed this incredible legs and he was diced. And mind you in in O Six there was not a lot of people who were bringing strata glut to the stage.

So he had a look that I did not associate with being drug free. But he had a size and you know, I knew what you had to do to get on stage and the testing and the quality of the people. And I was just like, wow. And it shifted my perspective entirely. You know, I was thinking about, well, maybe one day I'll have to consider using PEDs if I wanna be competitive at that level. Let's see how far I can take it. And then I just like, you know what?

Now I can draw a line in the sand where my, my competitive mindset won't push me to do things that I'm maybe I'm eventually uncomfortable with. Because I know that if I had my training right and my nutrition right and I couldn't, you know, reach my competitive aspirations, I would probably end up doing things that I would rationalize as an enhanced competitor. That wouldn't be best for my health, for my longevity, or or my legal status, right?

But like, I don't. I don't think I would have been striving for a pro card for, you know, depending on how you count at 14 or, you know, 17 years, if I hadn't had an opportunity to go right now, I can stay natural as a pathway because it's not like I haven't been frustrated, you know, since in this time period I've been in a lot of overalls, I've placed second to a lot of overall winners. And and like you, I've been

very, very close. So I I think I probably would have made different decisions with my life if I just hadn't gone to that show. And I'm really glad that I did. So yeah, competing for it for 14 years, but inspired to do it and had that on my, my main list of of competitive aspirations for for 1617 years. Yeah. But the beautiful thing is man, you fall into the lifestyle and then your day-to-day grind is not predicated on whether or not

you get that pro card. I was actually doing a client call with a joint client I have with Aaron Orton the other day and a lot of competitors that I talked to, especially first time competitors, they they put that pro card on this, on this pedestal, this is ever elusive pro card and it's like that's what drives their their intent, their motivation. It's like they just want to do the show to get my pro card. Now you and I both are pros. Like not a lot changes when you

earn a pro card. Like what you do as a natural bodybuilder. What wakes you up in the morning to do what it takes shouldn't be predicated on whether or not you have a pro card. Like you just simply fall in love with the lifestyle and the time passes anyways and then eventually you have enough time in the saddle and you earn that pro card. But like that should never be the driving factor, I don't think.

Yeah, I think I I was going to make a joke about the reason I was one minute late for our podcast as I was getting off the phone with Nike. And they're we're making the Helm's shoe now that I'm pro. Yeah, Yeah, but it was actually just because it wasn't recognizing my headphones.

The absolutely true, even IFBB pros are most of the time not experiencing a huge shift in their lives, even though they are potentially getting far more exposure because it's really only the top people in the sport. And these days it's you have to be the top in your sport and to have a large social media following for that to impact you. But ultimately you like you said, the lifestyle required to get to that level is the same that it is required just to do the thing you know.

And then if you happen to have what it takes and the discipline and all those things and the the talent and and in the years in the game, you'll get there. But IA 100% agree from a a motivational perspective. If you're purely focused on an extrinsic reward, and this is something that I've seen as a coach, this is something I've experienced personally, and this is also something that is actually supported by sports

psychology research. Being purely focused on an extrinsic reward is actually less likely to support you in its achievement, which is, I think, really ironic. It's actually the focus on the process rather than the outcome that seems to more consistently result in better acute performance of the steps leading up to a goal and eventual

achievement of the goal. We've got a ton of data on intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, so nothing wrong with having the goal of getting your pro card, but I always tend to describe it as like you want this layered cake, and the biggest part of that cake should be a love of the process. Like you said, living the lifestyle that you know, this is who you are to some degree and it's probably attached to, you

know, an identity. You know, this is kind of like your why at the center of everything. And then you might have other goals that are a mixture of what people might think of as intrinsic or extrinsic, like I'm trying to beat myself. It's still an outcome. It's not necessarily a process, but it is not requiring you to achieve something in terms of replacing that is in the hands of a panel of judges that you know are subjective in a

subjective sport. And it's not related to who shows up on the day, which is a huge, you know, randomizer in in bodybuilding. It is just you know, compared to how you were able to present last time.

And you know from now being 40 and from talking to Jeff and and my colleagues who are, you know, at the still at the peak of their their bodybuilding career competitively, but very aware that they might be at a a twilight phase where they may not be able to beat the prior version of themselves even that gets eventually taken away from you like all things in life, you know, or eventually gonna die. And I think that makes the moments much more special. And it's important to be focused

on the now. And you know, one of the things that Jeff has talked about and I've heard other masters athletes talk about is being the best version of themselves that they can be. Now, that's all there really is, is what is happening right now. And it's a luxury. I've come to see it as I've gotten older, to be able to have the goal of I'm gonna beat my prior version of myself. Because eventually all you can do is be your best.

And ultimately, even when you are trying to beat the prior version of yourself, the only way to do that is to be the best version of yourself right now and hope that the plan you set in place and the lifestyle you've been living supports that. And that's kind of like that smaller second layer of the cake, maybe the icing. And then the cherry on top is the extrinsic rewards, the placing and whether that placing comes with a pro card, et

cetera. Because you don't want to be in the position where you've done everything right. And if you had those two lower layers, you know, you were better than your prior season. You had a really great prep. And if you were focused on the process, you'd be like, damn it, yeah, I emptied the tank, I emptied the clip. I did everything I could. I should be proud of myself. But you get a placing that you that didn't meet your goal and you see it as a failure or it makes you feel bad about

yourself. I think that is just that's honestly, it's toxic, you know, for lack of a better word. And I think that results in some of the, I'll say, displays of poor professionalism that we sometimes see in our sport, which I think you know, you're allowed to have a moment, but just try not to have your phone in your handle. You're having it. You know where you're disappointed with the placing or you don't agree with it or you just need to get it out of your system cuz damn it, you wanted

to win. Like that's all good. And I've had those moments too and fortunately I didn't have them online. But but I think you wanna be able to at least within days, if maybe not weeks, reflect and go. I'm proud of what I did because you know, I I either was the best version of myself that I've ever been that I could have been, or I ticked every single box given the constraints of my life and the the randomness that life threw at me. And I did my my my best, which is all I can do.

Yeah, I think bodybuilding, natural bodybuilding especially, is a great vehicle to put yourself through those experiences. Like it's a great metaphor for life. If you step back and look at me, this is honestly why I why I do the sport in the 1st place. Like, if I can know wholeheartedly that I gave the prep every single thing I could and I didn't hold anything back, then there is no remorse, regardless of the placing.

Honestly, the most relaxed I am in life when I'm sitting there backstage waiting for my turn to go on, because at that point everything's done. Like, I literally just go out and and execute. But everything has been done up to that point. And if you can be at total complete peace for yourself in that moment, then regardless of what the judges say, regardless of what the other competitors bring to the table, you have no no say in that.

Like you can be at peace with yourself and what you brought, and then nobody can take that from you. Well said. Yeah, I I totally agree. It's easier said than done, but it sounds like you've got that mentality down pat. Interesting thing for me. Yeah. Yeah, it it, it's something you do have to try at, right? You know, yeah, I'm pretty good on game day. But I would say the few days leading up to game day this season particularly because I really kind of put my cherry on top out there.

You know I let myself feel like I was gonna be a competitor this season knowing that ultimately yeah, like I I was confident enough in my intrinsic attachment to the sport that it is who I am. It is a lifestyle. All those things that we both share in our mentality that I I'll be doing this no matter what. You know I'd be I'd be lifting if there was an apocalypse you

know. And I'd be probably going through seasons and setting up a timer and and comparing pictures and posting them on my own wall if I was, you know, and I am legend kind of Will Smith scenario because it's just what I do and it's the way I push myself and express myself, you know, both creatively and in terms of, you know, honing my blade as as a human, I guess you could say. But I also do have competitive goals, right?

You know, And when I brought them out to the forefront and I was like, listen, I'm gonna have the goal to get my pro card this season and it's something I'm gonna put out there. I care about it and I'll be disappointed if I don't get it. I think that's OK so long as you've got that anchor of intrinsic motivation. But I tell you what the double

edged sword to that was. You know, I would get nervous a few days out of each one of the shows and I would find myself in the week of peak week like, oh, there's there's something riding on this and I want to win. It gave me another little boost of motivation at times when I'm deep in prep and I'm feeling really dragged down in the middle of a workout or middle of trying to get my my 15,000 steps or whatever it was for the day.

And that was great. But you know, sometimes two days out I'm, you know, I've got work to do. I've got a, you know, pack. I've got to travel. I've got to be a present husband, friend, supervisor for my students or what have you or you know do some administrative

work for for something. And I'm thinking about, you know, like posing God, you know, like there there was a certain level of anxiety, slash, apprehension, slash nervousness that I didn't, I I I didn't surprise me, but I didn't anticipate it when I brought my competitive goals to the forefront. So that's going to be something that I get to work on in the future.

But I do think I'm going to have less of that now competing in the pro ranks because I kind of feel just privileged to be there, although I still want to move up the ranks. It's it's it's a different feeling I think competing as a pro versus for a pro card until you get to the point where you're trying to you know win titles and and place in the podium and things like that. No, I totally.

Agree man, like figuring out, like when you put yourself out there, there is this, especially when you're, you know, seen as an expert and an influencer and there's so many eyes on you from the accountability standpoint. There is that added pressure And something that I did different with this prep is I had the primary objective being to become the leanest man alive, totally independent of the competitions.

The competitions were just kind of in tandem to that goal, and I think that worked well from a psychological standpoint because I put that conditioning as the forefront and then the I timed it such that the competitions just were were there by happenstance, so to speak. But it may have also been kind of a detriment because like my last two shows, I was leaner than I was at the Washington show.

But I I may not have been as filled out and just brought that fullness because I was on such a quest to get leaner than I was at the Washington show. So from a psychological standpoint, I think it worked to my benefit. But if I'm looking at it strictly from a competitive standpoint, what it looked like on show day and may have benefited more by not being, you know, trying to get as lean for that Leanest Man Live title and just focus more on the

competitions. Yeah, dude, There. I think there is a point where you're down to, I'll say, as lean as you were at the Washington because you were peeled, where even getting leaner, you don't necessarily look leaner because of what you might have to do. And the fact that like, you know, bro, like you probably had like 100 grams of of subcutaneous fat on your body. Yeah, you know, and. And how much of that can you lose? What do you have to do to lose

it? And at that point, it's so spread out, like, can you even see the difference? Because I don't know if you were the leanest man alive, but you were absolutely on the Benjamin Schuster, Dirk Emmerich level. And I think at that point the difference between who looks leaner comes more down to OK, who got that lean and then who has the development to show it. You know, So totally.

Yeah. Like I I, I imagine maybe if your goal was a little different and you could have been more objective or if you had someone in your corner who was being you know, objective which is the value of coaching, they would say, right we've ticked that box let's eat up. And and you could have potentially looked leaner even if you put on another 10 grams of of fat, which is a, you know, the whole eating up into a show kind of thing, which is, which

is really interesting. And I think people don't realize that. But yeah, dude, you brought the conditioning, that's for sure. I appreciate it. Man, I I kind of want to touch on reverse dining because both you and I ended our season with the you know that world show which was the 19th of November. Now, both of us are 9 weeks post show, and I know you do a great job about talking about reverse dining, and I've listened to a few of your podcasts, I've listened to a few of the debates.

There's a bunch of controversy around the best protocol around reverse dining. But honestly, I'm just glad that people are talking about it because that is one of the topics that just often times gets left out of the conversation entirely. And so many people, you know, fail to reverse properly and they're that's what triggers eating disorder. That's what triggered eating disorders for me in the very beginning and kind of led to my

current dietary lifestyle. So that said, post show what what has been your protocol with you reverse that you're you're about what, 10 lbs above stage weight right now. Yeah, I'm actually right now I am in the 8586 kilo range which is like one 87188 and I was on stage at 79 and a like 175. So I'm like, yeah, just a little over £10 up, 9 weeks post show.

I'm about the same. Yeah. You know, and I'm, I would say that's maybe a little more than half body fat, you know, if we were to try to just kinda compare of and I've put the videos out there and no one's giving me pushback on that. So I don't think I'm delusional. Yeah. So and I do think some of that is maybe regaining loss muscle tissue.

A lot of that is regaining lean mass that is not necessarily muscle mass totally, which we'll get into in a moment, some really kind of physiologically interesting mechanisms of what quote, UN quote, metabolic adaptation is. And I do think some of that is actually gaining new muscle tissue, which is pretty cool and I will take that all day. I I wouldn't expect it and I I don't expect it as a coach and I haven't expected in prior seasons.

But I think the unique circumstances where I've been juggling being a strength athlete and a bodybuilder for the entirety of my career now, moving purely into bodybuilding training and doing my recovery well has actually enabled me to put on some some new tissue, new lean mass I haven't had previously in this phase, but you know, realistic only

probably a couple pounds. So anyway, the the approach that we've popularized at 3D Muscle Journey, we've made a very distinctive, purposeful goal of changing the terminology of saying reverse diet to recovery diet. And I'd be lying if it was like a firm hard difference that we could, you know, write down and many people would describe what we do as recovery diet as a reverse diet.

And it's not that I'm I I'm a stickler on the terminology and I'm fine with people calling it whatever they want. But I think saying recovery diet I think helps people psychologically understand that it is not just the process of increasing calories out of the diet and putting some of the body fat back on. But this is a phase where the

goal is recovery. And sometimes even when you know you need to put back on body fat and you've accepted that and you know you need to increase your numbers when it's reversing and you think of a certain pace and you don't want to go too fast, you will sometimes be unnecessarily or overly restrictive because you have some arbitrary quantitative numbers for your either your macros that you're trying to hit your calories, your body weight and over a certain period of

time where you're slowing down your recovery. And I think when we call it a recovery diet and from a coaching perspective or even a self coach perspective, if you're thinking of it this way, when you think the goal is recovery, you can be like you know what, I am on track to gain weight a little faster than anticipated. But when I was doing it slower, I couldn't sleep and my libido was still tanked or I still have a menorrhea.

My my menstrual cycle isn't happening regularly regardless of what we anticipated might be the right pace so.

So we purposely use the language of the recovery diet because I think some not all iterations of the reverse diet especially kind of like the the version one point O. They had some narratives around them that were much more focused on the staying lean while eating more food rather than thinking of this being a time to recover maximally so that we could have a productive improvement season or offseason or whatever you wanna call it. Yeah, and a lot of kind of the,

the marketing and sales tactics to be frank around some of the early reverse dieting were very appealing to the mindset of a competitor Towards the end of the diet like you, your, your goal is to be the leanest man alive and that means your entire focus that just you know gets enhanced by the process of contest prep was on like well, alright, do I have another line at the top of my glutes? Like do I have a vein in my

adductor now right? And everyone has that to some degree and it's challenging to turn that ship around when it has so much momentum and time behind it to go right now, the goal is to purposely gain body fat. It's incredibly and also you're in very hard, very hard.

And also we are super hungry. At the end of contest prep, we are physiologically starving and the natural response is to be more food focused, to think about the flavor of a carrot, as I've said a few times on podcast, which is just a ridiculous thing to think when you're 20 lbs over stage weight deep in the offseason and you're like, I don't really want to eat at all, but it is very different, but it's the reality

at the end. So So when you sell someone, eat more food, when you love food and stay lean, I think competitors eat it up. But that is not the goal of this phase. The goal for someone who is doing a reverse diet after a season is to as efficiently as possible recover. So they have as productive as an offseason as possible. And there is physiological recovery that needs to happen, and there's also behavioral and psychological recovery that needs to happen.

So that's the first point I want to make is that I'm going to use the terminology recovery diet because I think it gets at the heart of what the actual goal is, and I think it makes it psychologically more palatable when you're using that the the, the appropriate terminology. No, I can totally. Get behind that. I think terminology is important. I've not.

I've talked about reverse dieting in the same context of it being primarily focused towards recovery, so I don't have a negative stigma in my mind towards it. But I think when it comes to reaching the masses for the right reasons, calling a recovery, that makes all the sense in the world, so it's by all means use that terminology. Perfect. Well said. Yeah, I I agree, yeah. It's not something I don't like to ascribe negative connotations to things when people don't mean

it by any means. And so, so yeah, I, I, yeah, it's not like a a, a finger waving thing. It's just let's let's think about you know what kind of messaging and what we're trying to accomplish. So yeah, the recovery diet, the way we describe it at 3 DMJ is kind of like what seems to fit most people is that within one to two months post show we're trying to get people. This is an outcome basis and I'll talk about the process in a

second. Somewhere between 5 to 10% over stage weight once their body weights like stabilized and that's when we say stage weight, we mean you know a more filled out version not like the lowest body weight you had on you know some two week out rough dehydrated day where you finally pooped the day before or whatever it is.

But but yeah, like maybe looking at your, your average weight the week of peak week or your your stage weight unless you did some kind of massive like back load or something like that. So that is a goal like that. That's a reasonably broad range when you think about it and time frame, but it's also fast.

And what we saw was that when we were trying to do the more regimented, strict reverse diet on the more extreme end, like, hey, let's go up 500 calories from the end of Prep, cut your cardio in half and then we'll just increase, you know, maybe 5 grams of fat, 10 to 25 grams of carbs when your body weight is, you know, not going up too quickly. We had like an abysmal success rate.

And people were really starting to lose self efficacy because they would try to follow it and then they would go off the rails and it would create this almost binge purge cycle. You know, this this kind of controlled damn right down, right, almost bulimic kind of response, not actually purging in a sense of making themselves vomit. But, you know, actual technical clinical bulimia does not require vomiting. It just requires binge purge

cycle. So someone would, quote, UN quote, below the reverse diet and have this massive blowout where they're supposed to eat 2800 calories and they get asked to go out to a restaurant and they go, OK, sure, you know, I can work in this appetizer and they're at 2500 calories. And man, that appetizer tastes good. They're with friends and family. They rationalize for a second. You know, why am I being so strict with this?

I can make it up tomorrow. The next thing you know, they're they're at home having eaten 5000 calories and feeling terrible about themselves and wondering what happened to that competitor who had so much willpower that they could grind themselves to the point of being, you know, striated glutes, you know, and then being recognized and applauded and seeing success because of their conditioning.

And now they can't stop themselves from having a second deserted Applebee's. Like, it just makes you feel like you've lost something. And that's a terrible place to be. I've been there. I've, I've coached people through it. And what I realized was that I shouldn't be coaching people through this. This is it's it. I'm setting up competitors for failure.

And when we move to a model where we're saying, hey, you know, these these quote, UN quote slip UPS are probably just an indication that you needed to do that. And instead of 2800 calories, let's have the goal of 3800 calories. You know when you give someone a very large surplus, you know probably the biggest surplus that they're gonna have in their their postseason period as they recover and move into the offseason.

And we tell them explicitly the goal is to put on a a healthy level of body fat to get you kind of back to your lower intervention point because that's part of the recovery process. All of a sudden we started seeing more like 6070% compliance and the the the remaining 30 to 40% is it just happened a little faster than we'd want. But it's much easier to coach someone and say hey you know you're you're recovering faster

than the goal target was. You're doing great, you know, because really the only thing we want to avoid is being on either end of the spectrum of gaining weight so quickly and putting on so much body fat that you lose your runway for gaining, you know, and that you find yourself three months post show and you

need to do a cut or a mini cut. That's rough because hey, you're probably not fully recovered and we can talk about what's going to dictate recovery, but you're you're, you know psychologically it's really tough to do a cut that close to the prep. You feel like a failure and and it's it's just very challenging. Like I said that ship turns around slowly to look up one day and be like man, it was not that long ago, I like the way I look and now I hate it. So you don't want to be there.

You don't want to have a plan that sets you up to essentially spend your whole offseason in and out of mini cuts to get back to something that is more reasonable and and productive. But you also don't want to successfully do an extreme reverse diet where you're actually holding your own recovery back and you're spinning your wheels.

And I think that's something that more experienced competitors, competitors with a little more of a restrictive kind of restrained eating, you know lifestyle that had that probably before they even got into physique sport and competitors which is quite common who might have a history of disordered eating or even a full blown eating disorder before they came to the sport that that that can't happen and I have seen that. So we want to be just between

those two. We don't want to slow down a recovery and we don't want to blow way past it so that we're we're, you know, having to cut because both of those essentially from a performance perspective, just make you have less time in the offseason to make productive improvements in your physique. I completely agree and I've kind of played around with both ends of the spectrum as well. I've had clients that have played around with both ends of

the spectrum. I want to talk about nuts and bolts of how you get there in the most efficient manner possible. But I kind of want to touch on your personal reverse diet right now from a psychological standpoint because you and I are both in it and you and I both have been doing this for quite some time.

And I would, I would venture to say I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I would venture to say that you nine weeks post show still have some psychological tension with food and it's you haven't got it all figured out 100% yet, like you still struggle with that to some degree. Is that a fair statement? Yeah, yeah. I'd say I'm like, nearly back. But like, just last night, for example, I found myself reaching for a smaller spoon to eat Greek

yogurt. You know, 'cause I wanted to take more bites and I'm like, all right, I'm not. I'm not all the way back yet. Have you had?

Some some pretty high days like since the show have you had some days that were you're just like like I'm looking at my data right now and just from a very high level, what I tend to do is I'll try and lean on a bunch of the the habits that I've done throughout the prep because I feel like when you change course 180° like it just really screws with you psychologically. So I've still posed. I've still practiced my routine. I've still tracked all my intake.

I've allowed myself much more flexibility. But I like to keep some of those habits in place because it just I'm I'm able to free up my mental bandwidth of what the prep and the shows looming put on me. I'm able to maintain those habits, led to my success, but with so much more mental freedom that I can stay locked in and productive with everything else in my life while still leaning

on those habits. So what I do is, may I'll increase my intake on a daily basis, but I'll gradually reduce what I'm allowing myself on the refeed days and kind of playing around with the weekly averages based off of how my body's responding. But I had several, not several. I probably had four days or so that were 8000 calories. Seventy 508,000 calories. So a lot of food. But I was tracking everything. I was tracking my sodium. I was weighing everything out because I wanted to see how my

body was responding. I was going at CGM when I was eating those large boluses and I feel like I am able to relate more with people that are struggling with it for the first time. But I don't not struggle with it. Like there's times where I'm just like, man, I could really eat an extra steak right now, and sometimes I'll allow myself that.

But I think if you're looking at it objectively and seeing the numbers, seeing how anybody responding, that for me is better than to just eat intuitively and have no idea why

my body's doing what it's doing. Yeah, I I think so to answer your question broadly, yes, I have maintained some structure and yes I have had some high days, not not that high but I would say so for example the night of the of world's when I ended my season we went to Cheesecake Factory and I had Cheesecake. You know that right there is like 1500 calories on top of you know the the dinner that I had that was probably, you know with the the, the skinny Long Island

I see I got probably. Close to 800. So I I think I, I put down, you know, 2300 calories in one sitting. Yeah. However, I think I'd only had 800 calories on the day because that's kind of the way I roll in the peak weeks is I I load early and then I clean up nicely and I'm, I'm not eating much on game day. So I think of the day of the competition only had about 3000. And then the next day we had Big Breakfast to do a photo shoot. We had dinner out.

I was probably in the three thousands and then when I noticed that my recovery was a little too slow based upon the initial, you know, kind of guesstimates I started with, I did move to like, hey, let's eat on average 3000 calories, but it wasn't 3000 calories every day. I probably had a 4000 calorie day at a Christmas party, but I I think probably the highest high day I would have had was around 4K. Yeah, and I'm not a metabolic monster by any means.

You know, my maintenance energy intake when I'm lean is probably closer to 2000 and 2100 despite being a middle weight. But yeah, I definitely had those days. And from a what? What kind of behavior scaffolding did I maintain? The big ones that I maintain are tracking step count, weighing in every morning and maintaining the same eating structure and schedule. So qualitatively someone who is not, you know, thinking about the, the calories in the food I'm eating would not notice a

big change in my behavior. You know, they're gonna see a different choice of the of a fruit that I eat at lunch and a second fruit. They're gonna see a different brand of Greek yogurt that I eat before bed that has, you know, higher fat or higher carbs, right. And they're gonna see me going to the the same cafes with my wife where I get breakfast, but there's gonna be different

choices of of of what I get. You know, instead of it being smoked salmon with eggs on toast, it might be, you know, a bowl of oatmeal with fruit and some smoked salmon, right. So the way I live my life is becomes different, you know, and and instead of dinner being something that is mostly vegetables in a protein source, it'll be vegetable the protein source in a carbon fat source. So, but so So for me, I maintain what we call like the default diet which is more so the the

plug and play options. But what I plug in is gonna have higher calories, higher carbs, higher higher fat at each meal and everything else is maintained. I I didn't take it as far as you with practicing posing but I did do a a six week post like six weeks recovery mark check in with Brian. So that was another thing that I intentionally was like hey Brian Minor one of the three DMJ coaches. Let's let's continue a coaching relationship where I'm checking in once a month tracking data

have a spreadsheet. So I kind of have that same behavior pattern because I was checking in with Berto during prep as it's kind of like my my overseer my guidance. And so all of those things absolutely maintain a certain structure. And I think that helps tremendously because you when you remove that structure, it is very easy to rationalize and just to slip up and to have that turn into something that kind of goes off the rails.

And I think the way you can tell whether or not you're a more mature competitor, which I think is defined by living the bodybuilding lifestyle in season and offseason, is how similar qualitatively, again, not in terms of energy intake or body fat like on you how similar your offseason and season look from a behavioral perspective and competitors who are relatively

early in their career. It is a really big deviation from what they might have been doing prior to getting into bodybuilding to live the quote UN quote lifestyle. They do it during prep, but they find it fatigues them, You know, maybe they don't want to eat those same foods, they don't want to have that same food structure.

They want to be more flexible with when they train things like that and and that's OK and it does take time to kind of just ingrain the habits of being a bodybuilder day in and day out cuz it is quite an abnormal lifestyle which you know it is what it is but but once you do it without thinking about it

that is a good sign. So when I have a competitor, and this is often more common in first or second time competitors or those who had a maybe a history of being overweight and the first time they got lean was in the course of contest prep. When they are feeling like to recover, they need to let go of the structure. That tells me that we have work to do in the offseason and they're not quite there yet. And there's a big risk. You know, those are the people

who tend to like myself. In my first season, I was a skinny kid who just ate everything And then I started bodybuilding. And all of a sudden I kind of locked in all these behaviors that were totally foreign to me and I hadn't done for my entire life, you know, And then all of a sudden at 20, I guess I was 23 in my first contest season when I started it, I'm drastically changing everything because for me, the offseason bodybuilding was just the seafood diet, you

know? So when I came off of that back to normal quote UN quote eating, I thought I'd just go back to the seafood diet. I'm a skinny kid. It'd be fine. I'm not gonna gain weight. And I found myself two months post show, 48 lbs up and for the first time in my life, actually looking in the mirror and going, I'm over fat. You know, Like I don't this is not an experience I've had and struggling with not being able to put down the, you know, the fork.

So that was a a very eye opening experience and probably a good one that I had because now I I I knew like no one's exempt, not even the naturally skinny. You know, people who come to the sport who never had to think about food issues like the sport will bring it to you if if you didn't already have it. Yeah, no, I totally. Agree.

I think leaning into those habits that led to the success in the 1st place like you're doing yourself a disservice if you deviate from them entirely with with your recovery diet protocol. What what do you consider the quote UN quote endeavor like? When does that conclude? When you reach a point physiologically where your hormones are stable and your body fat is at your running average throughout a building phase? Are you looking at it more from a psychological standpoint?

Like what is the the end marker of that recovery diet? Great question. And I would say that the true end of it is when the person has behaviorally got back to a kind of quote UN quote baseline. And I would say that is gonna be subjectively determined. It's where they're not experiencing lethargy, which tends to come into prep. They're not experiencing signs physiologically of suppressed

hormonal systems. Very easy to check in women, you know, are you having a regular menstrual cycle in men? The parallels tend to be are you back to a normal, at least seemingly normal libido and frequency of morning erections? I think that that's probably a decent proxy. Is your sleep normalized if it was disrupted? Those are things to focus on. Are you seeing performance going up in the gym? Is your body water, indigestion,

normalized? Those are things that that also kind of look a little funky, like when you start to gain your weight initially back, it gets distributed in strange ways. You retain body water when you're trying to digest, even if you eat the same foods just in higher volumes, you're gonna see

your GI tract need to adapt. I think you're actually literally regaining smooth muscle in the in the GI tract and there's probably changes that are going on in the gut microbiota based upon what you were feeding it in the offseason versus in season in the amounts. So when all that stuff is started to normalize, I I think you you are recovered.

One of the most important signs I think though is the food focus and you this one kind of comes back gradually and you're you're looking for like not grabbing that smaller spoon or not caring about the flavor of a carrot eventually. But I think it's important to take a step back and discuss like what are probably the determinants of recovery. So we have to acknowledge all of them and sometimes we focus on one to the exclusion of the others.

We get a little too one track in our mind and and the way I see it is there are three main pieces. One is actually energy availability. Are you eating enough relative to your physiological needs acutely like currently right now, what's your energy intake? And that somewhat independent of other things can have an impact.

Like if you put someone who is very heavy, like you take a woman with obesity and you put on a really, really low calorie diet, you will start to quickly see changes in like luteinizing hormone. And it's possible that they will actually start to experience a menorrhea regardless of the fact their body fat is high and it's only been a short period of time on the diet. So these are potentially independent factors, but they do impact one another as well.

So there's just how much energy are you eating relative to your body's needs and how active you are. And you can express that as a value to, you know, relative to lean body mass in calories, you know, after taking away physical

activity, calorie expenditure. And we can see in the literature, there's even relationships there between what's called Red's Relative Energy Deficiency Syndrome, which has massive overlap, what we describe as the consequences of contest prep, but not entirely because there are other factors. We're also not only restricting calories, we're restricting calories to the point where we're getting very, very, very, very lean.

And there are data and we have probably the most robust model to explain what happens when you get leaner than your body would otherwise like you to be is what's called the dual intervention model. We've probably heard of the set point or settling point model and where it kind of assumes there's like this one body fat percentage that your body likes to defend. But that's not really what we observe. It's more of a range.

Like most competitors, you talk to them, they'll tell you like the diet's easy until I get to X body weight, and then it seems like I have to disproportionately do more cardio, reduce my calories, and the same process feels harder because I'm leaner. You know, one anecdotal experience I have is that when I'm in a higher deficit, when I'm in higher body fat, it doesn't affect my sleep.

When I'm in a higher deficit on a given day, when I'm lower in body fat, I'm going to wake up after 4 hours and have to work to get back to sleep. And that seems to be a very predictable thing for my body, not everybody. There's definitely some interaction between energy

availability and body fat. And when we look at kind of just the range of individuals and we take a look in understanding evolutionary biology, we see that there's this what's called a lower intervention point and upper intervention point, and humans are much better on average at defending against a lower versus a higher intervention point. What that means is that yes, some people, if they get high enough in body fat percentage, you'll see a disproportionate

increase in energy expenditure. Their meat will go up, non exercise activity, thermogenesis, their RMR will go up to a greater degree, even relative to their body mass, and they will get a suppression of appetite. You know they won't want to eat as much. So there's this defense of not getting higher in body fat. Now when you look at other species, like, for example, Gray animals like mice, they're much better and more consistent at us than defending against high adiposity levels.

And that makes sense because if you have a fat mouse, what is it to a predator, it's slow and tasty, right? Right. You know, you get, you get that good marbled meat, you know, for all those those, those, those keto savages out there called, you know, felines, right?

So humans, however, you'll see some people who are very good at defending against high, high body mass, 'cause, you know, we are, we are mammals, and we're gonna have some genetic lineage that's shared with some of the species. And there was a time where, you know, we had to think about running up trees and then not getting eaten. But pretty damn early on in the development of our our our

lineage. We're throwing rocks, we're throwing sticks, we're getting high ground, we're setting traps, we're we're hunting in groups. And we're no longer at threat of predation. But famine, on the other hand, and starvation absolutely has been the biggest threat to our species over time, over multiple ice ages and even not necessarily starvation itself.

But being low enough in body weight and having the associated negative impacts that makes us more vulnerable to pathogens has been something that you can look at from an evolutionary biology perspective. So we're really good at defending against losing weight. And you can kind of just observe this by looking at the obesity epidemic. You know, if we had all these robust systems present in every single human in in the species, we wouldn't have higher obesity

rates. So people struggle, in fact, to lose weight and keep it off when there's an abundant food supply. And we actually see this in other primates. You know, when you look at captive apes, when you give them a steady supply of food, they slowly gain body fat and body weight at almost the same rates as Homo sapiens, which I think is really interesting. And that's all the way from, like lemurs all the way up to, like orangutans, like all kinds

of primates. So anyway, for without getting too far off track here, that's another component is your individual lower intervention point. In being below your lower intervention point. It's gonna keep you in a state of metabolic adaptation, keep you in a state even when you're eating enough calories, of the amount of calories you can eat being a little lower than what they otherwise would have, you're suppressed, if you will.

It's gonna keep you in a state where you're probably not producing the same number of sex hormones. It's not gonna be as bad as being on a diet and being lean, but they are independently factored in there. So those are two factors. And then another factor I think is time. Because there is gonna be a lag time before the increase in body fat and the increase in calories is going to result in the changes in your body and the

changes in your mind. The psychological and physiological changes that result in full recovery. So you can quickly gain body fat and you can restore your your your calories. But like you and I are experiencing, even though we're almost nine weeks post worlds,

we're not 100% back. Even though I am what I think at my or slightly above my lower intervention point and eating a sufficient amount of calories, from experience I think it's gonna take me a few more weeks and and the reason I believe that is also based upon last season in 2019, I kind of did the upper end of what we consider the recovery diet. I was competing around same body weight 80 ish kilos and I got to 90 kilos within six weeks versus 85.

So I was 11 lbs heavier. I wouldn't say that was all body fat and eating a sufficiently higher amount of calories to achieve that in the same time frame, but I felt pretty similar. You know, I I don't remember being more recovered. I remember sometime in November or December after finishing my season in mid August feeling like 100% and just kind of looking up.

And we were in New York and I wasn't licking plates, you know, And I was like, oh, OK, well, if I was in New York, even in October, this would be, I'd be like, oh wow, this is a great spot and lots of food, you know. So I think to some degree you don't want to try to rush the process too much because you simply can't and it will take time. You know I I didn't spend 41 weeks in an active contest prep phase and expect that six weeks would do it.

It's just not it's I don't think it's realistic even from a behavioral perspective. My whole brain was tilted towards this one goal of getting as shredded as possible and even trying to turn around as fast as I can. I just think it's it's it's setting yourself up with unreleased unrealistic expectations to think that you can just turn on a dime like that. So the markers you're looking for, Yeah, yeah. So I'm probably repeating myself.

But the markers you're looking for those subjective factors and then some of those objective factors which I think you can tell without needing to actually get lab work done. Like, you know, your sleep quality, menorrhea, you know, some of the markers in men parallels for for hormonal status. And then also, are you eating a

reasonable amount of food? You know, so as an example, even though I have a slightly slower metabolism, quote UN quote, or a lower energy expenditure you'd predict, I know in the offseason my maintenance energy intake should be in the mid 2000. So like I'm currently eating like 2526 hundred calories. My weight's still going up a little bit and that tells me that that's weight I probably need to gain. That's indicative of incomplete recovery.

If 187 LB male training five days a week and getting, you know, 8000 steps on average per day is gaining weight on 2500 calories, I'm not that much of an outlier, right. That's indicative of some type of suppression. So in those cases, that's another thing. It's like OK, if we set up a reasonable calorie intake based upon your history and what we know is reasonable for your activity levels and body mass and we think you're tracking accurately, which I'm pretty confident I am.

OK. Maybe that's what you need to gain. So that's kind of the objective side of it, subjective side of it. Then you just have to have the the time, the body fat and the energy intake. And when you focus on any one of those exclusively, you can get yourself into trouble. You can think, OK, I've restored my energy intake, why don't I feel better? Well, maybe you're you're staying too lean. You just eating at maintenance isn't going to cut it. That's kind of the old school

reverse diet. Well, I've gained a lot of body fat, but I'm still hungry. Well, you probably did it really, really fast. And gaining more body fat isn't going to help. This is going to take some time, so maybe we need to slow it down. Or, you know, it's been a bunch of time. Why don't I feel better? Well, if you've been eating too little and if you've not gained enough body fat, So I think you have to take all three into account.

When it comes to all of that and the ranges, and that's going to be a little bit different for everyone, what what's your take on homeostatic set points? You were touching on it there about that being a window. And one of the commonly held beliefs is that you can reset that homeostatic set point at higher or lower levels depending on typically how long you stay at a given composition. What is the the the science and the data show on that? The data does not actually

support that unfortunately. It suggests that really within the two ranges, your upper intervention point and your lower intervention point, that there's this basically regulated range if you will, or non regulated range where physiologically you could be about the same. But what is gonna dictate whether you're floating closer to your upper intervention point or your lower intervention point is largely environmental. And when I say environmental I mean that in a much broader sense.

That includes your own purposeful changes to your environment like quote UN quote living the bodybuilding lifestyle. But most people are a little more of a hazulty of their environment than bodybuilders. We as bodybuilders we architect our environment tremendously. You know all the things we talked about that we're maintaining that's quite abnormal compared to most of the

members of our species right. So you know athletes they they they change their environment to get to a certain outcome but most people and and that this is normal and it would be nice if they this is all they had to do. But the modern environment has changed so much that it it leads to this they just live their lives and someone living their lives in 2024. Versus 1824 in the same country with the same genetics, they're gonna have two different body compositions.

And there's actually hints of this and some of the research on people who are living in more technologically like oppositional societies. So, so, so Luddites. That sounds a negative connotation, but you know your Quakers or your people who are living as agricultural farmers even in the modern age, people who don't drive cars.

You know, you you can go to these these societies where they're still living more, more traditional types of of lives that you would see in the colonial places where they where they live. So you these, these societies have been studied in the United States. You can go to a community and some researchers have, and there's some studies in the 90s where they would get pedometers and they would do body composition testing on a whole bunch of people in these traditional societies.

And the average body fat among men was like 9 to 11% body fat. And the men were clocking, you know, 20 + 1000 steps per day. And you see a little bit higher in women, but that you're also seeing them give birth to like nine children on average, which is a very different, OK, they're they're, they're they're quote, UN quote traditional societies. They're also very, very different. You know, they're they're religious sects most of the time.

So but anyway, when you look at historical data or there's even some data that come out of, there's there's there's Australian actors who work in a hey, we're recreating this, this historical farming life of the first people from Europe who settled Australia. And you look at their step counts and you look at the changes in their behavior and the fact that they're only eating things that they're

making. And you will see, despite the fact, despite the fact, this is the interesting thing, once you get out of looking at the hunter gatherer era, era of humanity and you start looking at the agricultural era, there's a big change. You see an increase in food availability, but you don't see a decrease in activity. Yeah, it's hard being a hunter gatherer, but it's really hard

also being a farmer. They're they're, they're comparable number of steps and you're constantly moving and there's a ton of manual labor in either case. But you've got butter, you've got dairy, you've got constant access to meat, you've got grains, you have food availability. So for example, in some of these societies, the average energy intake for men is like 3800 calories, but they're 9 to 11% body fat. However, when you look at hunter gatherer societies, they're

shorter in stature. They are, you know, producing far less energy expenditures than you'd expect for the activity levels. Their body mass is lower and they're consuming fewer calories. So they're kind of in this constant state of, you know, basically energy, energy expenditure suppression. They're they're metabolically down regulated so they can survive cuz they don't have food available.

But body fat is also low. So I think that's a really interesting thing when you look at what's going on and to answer your question, to get all the way back to it, I'm pretty skeptical at least that you can modify your physiological intervention points. I do think unfortunately you might be able to put push up your upper intervention point. I think that there is some potential mechanistic

explanation for that. You know with with gaining new fat cells and and just making it easier to regain body fat. I don't have strong data for that, but I think if there was a way you could alter your your upper and lower intervention point, it's much more likely you could your upper. But I think the majority of what explains differences between individuals is whether they're closer to their upper or their lower intervention point based upon their environment.

And that's why you see, for example, in in Asian societies or agricultural societies, despite having, you know, some of the same pieces in place, like a high energy intake, for example, in those traditional societies I was talking about, you'll see a lower body fat that they're walking around. And it's not because they've reprogrammed their Physiology.

It's that their behavioral environment and their the foods they're eating and the activity levels they maintain and the the palatability of the foods they're eating are much different to what we're experiencing in in our modern lives. So from a. Practical application standpoint.

If somebody is wanting to remove body fats and just maintain a healthier composition, and they feel like they can do so through an extensive cut and recovery diet and reset homeostatic set point, so to speak, what they're likely going to experience in reality is doing those things, building the habits, forming that lifestyle, and then in doing so improve their composition. And then by adhering to that for a long enough period of time that simply becomes easier than

it was previously. It becomes the new normal, so to speak. So they're able to maintain that composition more so as a direct result of their environmental and behavioural changes than anything that's happening under the hood, so to speak. Perfect summary exactly. Couldn't have said it better or more succinctly myself, clearly because I spent a lot of time saying exactly that. Now, I like it, man. I think. I mean, This is why we do. We did.

This is why we love the the lifestyle, because we see like it. It just bleeds into every aspect of our life. Like your relationship with your spouse, your your ability to perform in business as a coach. Like all of these things benefit from just the habits ingrained in us as a result of bodybuilding, and that is so much more than a pro card that is so much more than a a body fat scan or caliper could dictate.

I mean, that's just who we are to the core, and we can't help but love it. Absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree. And yeah, that's that's something that I think it's missed out a lot on. I think social media really emphasizes the look of bodybuilders. But I think I like to say instead of the aesthetics, it is the aesthetic ASCETIC, the monk like existence. You learn to live and then start to appreciate and love and habituate. That almost frees you up to operate in our modern world and

be more effective. You know you you start to look like the outlier. Why is it that they are not you know, like I'm 40 and all my friends who are 40 who are you know, not participating in sport or some type of regular

activity. I look younger than them and they ask I'm the guy that asked for advice and and I I'm the person who they're like wow, like you have so much discipline and I go like you know I did have discipline at one point but I don't have to exert discipline on a day-to-day basis now because these this is just how I live and that's that's a hard thing for people to get and it's a hard thing. I mean obviously we both talked about how we still struggle with

it and contest prep. Is that purposeful? Like let me throw, you know, let me throw a wave at this, this, this boat and see if I if, if I can regain my stability.

And I think that is why the recovery phase is so challenging for for even bodybuilders who have this ingrained healthy lifestyle is because it's a big difference between me walking around it in the high one 80s, low one 90s and looking, you know, beach lean and just seemingly effortlessly maintaining that versus going from what would be considered a

lean physique to losing. Oh let me let me go ahead and lose like 15 to 20 lbs of body fat and and then see if I can make it you know so so yeah it it is it is absolutely a a constant forced decision every time you compete to to to reingrain the behaviors and re establish your why and and and recommit to the lifestyle and transition in and out of you know these these slightly more normal phases that to the average person still look quite abnormal.

And yeah, I think, I think it makes you a more resilient person if it's if it's something you can really habituate to 100%. Post recovery diet, when you are in a slight surplus and prioritizing, you know, building more link tissue, are you taking as a regimented approach to tracking your intake? Or are you pretty much just, you know, maybe checking in from time to time, ensuring that you're eating enough total calories, enough protein, and then implementing progressive overload?

Great question. Yeah, I I trend more towards outcomes versus the variables the deeper I get into the offseason. So what I mean by that is like right now I'm weighing in daily, you know, I'm, I've got my step count tracker on my on my wrist and I actually have a calorie

target. An average calorie target doesn't mean it's not like I can't like right now like I said, I'm targeting 25 to 2600. If I think yesterday I probably had 2200, so today I'm probably gonna have more like 2700 and that's that's totally fine, right. I'm not having like 1800 and then you know 3200. But I'm staying within some kind of reasonable range, maybe plus or minus, you know, 10% on the calorie target or so.

But that becomes more of AI stopped tracking calories later unless my data, my outcome data is telling me I probably should. So what does that mean? So I have a A target, you know, like I have a rate of weight gain and upper end weight that I associate with a certain body composition. Of course if I'm looking awesome and I'm heavier than I thought I would be great. That means I'd probably put on

some lean tissue. But essentially I have kind of a cap on how much body fat and what body weight relative to my stage weight I'm gonna allow myself to get up to before it triggers that eventual mini cut. You know, that comes with kind of the end of the runway of a gaining phase.

And once I'm out of the period where I would consider me still recovering, energy intake is maybe not tracked if a body weight is. And I'm going to start tracking my scale weight the minimal number of times that I think I need to get a realistic average, so maybe three times a week. And I just have a spreadsheet that calculates an average.

So I'm basically looking at the output of the equation instead of, you know, energy intake minus expenditure equals, you know, net deficit or surplus which will result in the change in body mass. I'm just looking at body mass and then allowing myself to auto regulate based upon that. Oh, I'm I'm starting to plateau. OK, I need to, I need to modify things and I start to focus more on internal cues.

So I find that the heavier and heavier I get, the more my weight loss will slow down and the more satiated I feel. So for example, if I actually get over 200 lbs, if I am just satisfied after meals, I'm probably in a slight deficit. But when I'm under 190 like I am now, if I am just satisfied after meals, I might be in a slight surplus, right? And if I'm eating at maintenance, I might feel just a little hungry, like I could eat more.

You know, like you said, I could have a second steak, right? So during the recovery phase, I'm weighing in daily. Not so much that I need that data to get an accurate view of my scale, weight or it's change, but I find it's good reinforcing behavior for monitoring that keeps me on track. It's just like you doing your posing.

So I will probably stop checking my body weight daily when I'm A not gaining as quickly and B, don't feel that I need that accountability because right now, when I see my scale weight tick up more than it should, it creates A manageable level of anxiety. You know, because I know I'm supposed to be gaining weight. I know I still need to recover based upon how I feel, but at the same time I am, I don't need to take that any faster than I need to cuz there was that time

component that I talked about. So where I am currently is weighing in daily, having a calorie target and having somebody weight goals, but those are proxy proxies for how I feel. So right now I'm a little ahead of pace than what we initially anticipated for my recovery. But we're talking about like a kilo, not much nearly fully recovered body weight is starting to stabilize.

So I'd suspect maybe by February I'm gonna slow down the number of weigh insurance that I do, just maybe do three per week and I will shift towards maybe not having a calorie intake target. But just trying to see my my average body weight, my running average and my two week average slowly tick up. We're talking the goal is to gain roughly 100 grams per month because that'll kind of get me to where I want to be, which is is roughly a pound a month. It's it's slow weight gain.

So and and that then becomes an outcome goal rather than me tracking every little metric that gets to it. I'll still keep tracking steps because I got a Fitbit and that's easy and it's also good for health. But then I just really focusing on tracking my training. That's the only thing that doesn't change is I am tracking Rep sets, RPE load, and looking at that over time.

Because if I'm not making progress in the gym, at least on some kind of time scale, then then something needs to change because I'm potentially not inducing enough overload to to hopefully put on muscle. Are you using? A. An app or anything or just a spreadsheet for tracking your training metrics. Bit of both. I used Boot Camp, which is an app I I really like. Fully transparent.

I am an advisor on the app, but I'm only an advisor on it because I like it. I used to use Gravitas, who I also have been an advisor for, but those are two great training trackers where you can look at personal data and you can look at your volume over time, past PR's, your historical records, and associations between that and changes in strength, which is great, and how much volume you've done for and for different muscle groups. But and you can track things

like RPE. But anyway, I use Boot Camp to track when I'm in the gym, and then I transfer that to a Google spreadsheet, which is so Brian can see it and that I can look at a little, you know, more more intuitively. And I've got my body weights on a separate sheet, so I do both. Gotcha. Yeah, I'm I've always trained pretty intuitively, like I know kind of what my markers are and

I'm I'm sure to increase those. But this will be the first year I really dove into tracking all of my training metrics without fail, like I do my nutrition. So I'm really kind of curious to see how that impacts things going forward. I find it keeps me honest and I also like it because it allows me. As you know, it's an advanced lifter like we used to have the mindset of like each session I'm gonna find some way to improve. I'll add a Rep here or I'll do

something. And it's not necessarily always realistic to progress each time you repeat an exercise or a session. But what I do like to do is shift between different Rep ranges and find ways to do something I haven't done before. Like, let's say I'm I've got an exercise which I'm currently training in the six to 10 Rep range, and I go into a session. I'm just not feeling good for lifting. Heavy on that. And I go, you know, well, what's my best 20 Rep set?

And since I haven't done that in a while, maybe three months ago, and I have been accumulating little bits of progress, I can look through my tracker and I have good memory, but not that good a memory. I'm not gonna remember that nine months ago my my 20 Rep Max on you know bicycle was like 15 kilos or something like that. And I I can see if I can try to beat that and then I can have a run at a higher Rep PR for a while across four sets or something like that.

And then when I'm really burnt out on on the burn, essentially I'll jump back down to 6 to 8. I don't always do it like that, but it gives me more options. It essentially gives me like a a a better memory and it puts more opportunities on the table for me to get that like a little endorphin kick of like I'm

making progress. And it feels a little more like when I was earlier in my lifting career and I could make very clear progress, you know, adding 5 lbs week to week or adding a Rep you know something like that.

So I really enjoy it. And when you combine that with kind of like an auto regulated progression model use what's called dynamic double progression and then you know you can I I I'm a little more motivated going into each session because I'm gonna find a way on at least one exercise to to move move the needle up a little bit.

And right now obviously during the recovery phase it's going so well that I actually am making progress more like an intermediate which is which is just I I love it, I I'm, I'm very motivated going into every session, but I think the log book can help with that as well it is pretty.

Exciting when you have that influx of energy coming in and you just feel on top of the world post show, he can just go kill the training sessions, but you've still got all that vascularity and definition that you brought to the stage. And I just you feel like an animal in the gym? Absolutely. Yeah, I'm still, I am. I've probably got another 3-4, five pounds that I can gain before I stop getting like, oh shit, visual feedback, you know?

And I am planning to stay a little leaner this offseason, or at least experiment with it that I have in previous seasons. Just based upon how well I preserved strength and how I felt in the course of pacing This prep really well. And all the signs are indicating that I have probably just been trying to get too heavy and you know, you've been in the game a while, just like I have. And early on in the mid 2000s, the messaging we got was just like, you know, eat big to get

big. There wasn't a lot of delineated information for natural athletes. And you know, you tell someone and they see you and you're 6 foot and you got a narrower frame and they're like, yeah, well, you know, even as a drug free athlete, I expect you to be 220 lbs on stage at some point. And now I know that that's just not realistic. You know, there's maybe some world out there where I'm able to get up to like 185 on stage, but that's still a far cry from even 200, let alone 220.

So I was consistently getting a lot heavier than I think my, what was was benefiting me And just seeing like pictures of myself as a teenager walking around with with abs and probably at, you know, 10 percent, 12% body fat. Naturally, I'm starting to reassess whether I was even benefiting from getting that heavy. And I'm experimenting with having a leaner offseason, which I I do think motivationally does help. Yeah, you know, having just having bicep feints, man.

It just makes training much more more font, so there's definitely a point of. Diminishing returns with putting on body fat for the sake of building maximum amounts of lean tissue. I mean, I used to do the same thing. I got up to 230 lbs, my first legitimate building phase, and I'm only 5, seven and a half. So like, that was not a good look for me. That's huge. Bro, yeah, I was.

I was a beefcake. But The thing is, like, even if you put on more lean tissue, which one could argue if you are or not, yeah, you've got different leverage points. You could probably lift more weight, but you have to diet so much more aggressively if you're trying to maintain some reasonable length of prep time and then you risk losing any of that added lean tissue in that more aggressive dieting period.

So at the end of the day when you step on stage, I don't think there's any benefit plus there's certainly not as much of AA benefit from a health standpoint, just overall enjoyability and longevity standpoint by getting that heavy I totally. Agree. And and ultimately the proofs in the pudding, I have just never seen it work out the way we ambitiously wanted to as young

competitors. At least in the natural scene where you go, all right, you know, I competed at 160 and my off scene I was 180. So let me push it up to 190 and then I'm gonna, you know, get down to 170. It's like more like you push up to 190 and you get down to like 161. Yeah, you know, and then and then the next season and then that's like your second season. Like my stage weight, it increased from 2011 to 2019. But that was an 8 year period of me being in a surplus, you know,

or at least in maintenance. My stage weight in 2023 versus 2019 was almost identical. It functionally was identical. But I then the individual changes I made were targeted, you know and they're in muscle groups that you know having slightly bigger medial delts is really not going to shift your stage weight very much or like upper or lower lat or something like that. So IA 100% agree.

I think it is the presence of a surplus and and the absence of a deficit and being above your lower intervention point. Those are the main boxes to tick and then you just want to give yourself as much time in that state as possible. So I think gaining too quickly it essentially gives you a marginal benefit for losing a lot of time and it ends up being kind of a tortoise. First, the hare scenario.

And just like you said, you can carry more lean body mass at a higher body fat, but you can't carry more lean body mass once you die it down And even and some of that is also artifact of DEXA scans, like it's not actually an artifact, it's body composition testing. We actually have data that there's obligatory lean mass losses when you lose adipose tissue cuz fat mass is not entirely composed of fat of

triglyceride. There is some lean tissue there and when you gain fat and when you lose fat, there's a small proportion of it that is lean mass. And like you said, you know, leverage, I think leverage is

kind of a catch all term. Someone really pinned me down and asked me what that was and say, OK, well it's changes in range of motion and it's your ability to brace against load with different exercises and and you know, things like that rather than actually a true quote UN quote physics leverage, right. But there is a reason we have weight classes in in powerlifting. Yeah, the majority of it is yes, you're probably carrying more lean tissue at higher body masses.

That is contractile tissue or connective tissue or scalable mass. I do think that is something that actually happens is when you're walking around at 5-7 and 230 lbs, you're probably carrying more bone mass because that constant weight on your scalable system is going to increase bone density to some degree, which is probably gonna

allow you to move more weight. And I I would say this because we know the inverse is true, that when you look at studies on astronauts, when they are out of a gravity well, they start to quickly lose it. And there is something to be said for a constant higher tension on a given tissue. You're going to see it. It's not the same as the stepping in the gym for an hour four days a week or five days a

week. I don't think you can quite replicate being 230 lbs and walking around day-to-day living your life 24/7 for months with, you know, lifting as heavy as you can in the gym. So I wouldn't be surprised if you know the Robert Sykes at 230 lbs have higher bone mineral density in addition to having just more lean mass in your adipose tissue to where you could move heavier weights and and lift heavier loads and carry some more muscle. But you you just can't replicate that.

Unless maybe you're going to do the the weighted vest 24/7 thing, which sounds awful to me. Yeah, does not sound. Pleasant. I've. Got a bit of a selfless question for you Sir. So you've been in space for quite some time. I mean, I remember watching whiteboard videos of you long time ago and you have been a voice of reason. You are very well spoken and you are incredibly knowledgeable.

I have made it my point as of late since I've adopted this ketogenic way of eating and lifestyle to offer that as an outlook for people that want to compete at a high level and simply do better with that format of eating. I don't ever want to come across as dogmatic when it comes to nutrition. I mean, people obviously get lean with a variety of diets and I got lean. It was very competitive when I was eating carbohydrates.

Having not consumed carbohydrates now for eight years and still have a love for bodybuilding, I've wanted to kind of be a voice of reason for people that resonate more with that lifestyle. What is your take on not say what I've personally accomplished, but that could be folded into it, but just natural bodybuilding from a ketogenic perspective? Like, there's been a lot of pushback from people in the bodybuilding space towards me for wanting to do this in the complete absence of

carbohydrates. And I've always kind of been like a let me show you what I can do as opposed to tell you kind of person. So I felt like this prep season illustrated that quite well, but I'd love to get your take on that, just with your background and your knowledge and experience in the sport and in nutrition in general. Yeah, there's some interesting stuff there for sure. I think the first thing is that anecdotes I think are something that we don't give enough credit to in any time.

People kind of step into the quote UN quote evidence based space. And that's even true of scientists, cuz we have definite tilt towards I want verifiable data. But the one thing that anecdotes will tell you is whether or not for a given person, population or kind of phenotype or genotype if you will, whether something is required for success or whether it is it is a sufficient

barrier to success. And then when you get even more robust anecdotes, like in your case, we can look back on your prior preps with carbohydrates and without and you can see, oh, did he improve? Did he look better or worse, you know, or or, you know, maybe he would have improved anyway, but if it was that big of a barrier to him being better, he wouldn't

be able to get better. But I would say you, you would probably say that your physique now in 2023 on stage presented better than eight years ago when you weren't eating carbohydrates, right? Yeah, 100%. So you've been able to improve your performance in a sport while being ketogenic for eight years. So what we know from that that anecdote is that the key determinant of your success was not carbohydrate intake and we also know that a a a potential barrier to your success was not

the presence of carbs or not. And I think that's really useful. That's not to say that there aren't going to be some people where that's not the case, but we absolutely know that there are individuals like yourself to where carbohydrates are not going to be required for high level success in bodybuilding and or even improvement. And I think that's important and that's a really, really useful thing. Just to know purely from not even looking at the Physiology or the research or the science

and be aware of that. I think another perspective that I have as I've gotten more into the history and sociology of bodybuilding is to realize that we've gone through phases. There were phases where there was more of a dominant focus on a lower carbohydrate versus higher carbohydrate diets within the industry and within different regions.

So for example, when you look at surveys of bodybuilders in the UK versus the US, you see a lot more people in the US using low carbohydrate diets in the UK tends to be more dominated by high carb diets. This is probably just due to the cultural influences of who were the dominant like voices in the space or or or pros. You can also see a lot more use of ketogenic diets. We're currently in some of South America right now and it's not like you're seeing these trends.

We're at IPB World Championships or the Olympia or even WMBF worlds where you know, high carb or low carb diets is dictating whether or not that country is relevant for a period of like a decade or not, you know. So the influence of those dietary trends within bodybuilding is going to be less of an important factor than we can see based upon like the population of the country and the popularity of the sport.

And then when you think about the energetic demands of bodybuilding, which is essentially going to be mapped on to the energetic demands of hypertrophy training, we see that, well, shit, you can get hypertrophy from a range of volumes and even Rep ranges. It really comes down to, you know, doing the appropriate amount of work for the person, the right proximity to failure, and then even if they're not doing, could quote UN quote optimal amount of volume.

You can still make progress, you know, and it's very difficult to know whether you're actually doing this optimal. So I I do think that there can be a clustering of factors for someone where they respond better to lower volumes. They they they tend to be pretty metabolically flexible and do just just as well with a low carbohydrate diet compared to a

high carbohydrate diet. And they might also even get some other benefits of a low carbohydrate diet because there is some data indicating that not for everyone, but for the majority of people it can result in more satiety that that makes the dietary adherence easier. And I'm actually curious about this and I almost wanna flip the question on you.

I do wonder if the peaking process for some people might be better because yeah, theoretically you might be able to achieve higher levels of fullness with carbohydrate loading versus say fat loading or just bringing your energy intake back up. But from a data perspective, we see that people who are adapted to high carb diets, their glycogen levels aren't chronically low. They're they may not be able to get super compensated to the

same degree. But because you're using fat and because you're adapting to some degree to as much as one can to the energy substrates you're taking in, you can probably maintain quote UN quote normal levels of glycogen. But then you're not necessarily dealing with some of the potential spillover or acute shifts in appearance that you get with carbohydrate loading. I I I do wonder, and you would have more experience this with this than I would.

Is there that you mean high fat that adapted to high fat, That right I did mean. Adapted to high fat diet. Thank you. I'm following you. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess what I'm saying is you're you're you're you're not gonna get flat trying to do a fat load, right? You may not get as full maybe. I don't know, but I do wonder if there's less likelihood of having a spilly look when you're doing a carbohydrate protocol that that's low in

carbohydrates. Do you find there's this less likelihood of oops when you're when you're taking that approach? Yes. So there I I was doing several trial peak weeks in preparation for my for my first show and I would get incredibly aggressive with sodium, fats and proteins and the ratios, macro distributions and I could be on the incredible aggressive end and not risk near the spillover that I was experiencing when I

was incorporating carbohydrates. There could be an argument for I didn't get as filled out, but it it would be. I don't even think it would have been a noticeable difference even with the trained eye because like I'm looking at myself, I'm critiquing my physique, I'm, you know, training and look at my muscle fullness and I never felt flat after doing one of these peaking protocols with the ketogenic

approach. So I don't feel like I was sacrificing any from a fullness standpoint, but there was much less risk of spilling over. Even if I was only aggressive and or if I timed it closer or further to the actual show day in the week 'cause I was trying to front load and I was trying to back load. I was trying to figure out what timing made the most sense. And that's going to be a little

bit nuanced for the individual. I kind of landed on a 48 hour out as the high calorie day, but I was getting super aggressive with my sodium too. I mean, I was typically around 11 to 14,000 milligrams of sodium a day, which is pretty high by most people's standards. But I didn't cut water, so I was able to maintain hydration throughout the entirety of it. But I don't feel like there's near the risk for spilling over if you remove the carbohydrates from the equation.

And honestly, I said that makes sense to me. And I have noticed that there's an extreme variation between how people respond to carbohydrate loading protocols and some people can get quite full and I think they wouldn't respond as well. Like, you know, they there are some people who are really hard to spill over and eat a ridiculous amount of carbohydrates and they look better the more they eat. And I've coached them and I've

met them. I was talking to what Benjamin Schuster was taking in for his carb load this 21 year old that looks like he's got the muscle maturity of a 35 year old and we're like the same weight on stage or close to it, roughly the same height. He was the 2nd tallest guy in the class. I was the tallest. But dude, he was eating like 800 grams of carb a day like the

whole week. And I'm loading 2-3 days out on 500 grams of carbs and tapering it down and I'm just like, I know our stats look the same, but we are not the same, you know. So I I think that's really

interesting. And I would say you know to to give some validation to your experiences is that I think it would be a good idea for a coach to understand that if they've got a client from a peaking perspective who is very unpredictable and they're often looking worse based upon even conservative carbohydrate loading protocols on game day, they would be remiss to not at least try a low carb approach to

peaking. Where the best chance at having them look their best on game day is to just make sure they're not flat and then to emphasize, you know, loading fats and and sodium. In my mind, the only potential downside is that you might set back the actual fat loss aspect because you know you're not going to spill over a quote UN quote. But if you are overdoing it on fats and calories, then you're just going to be higher in body fat over the next couple days post show, right, Which which

may or may not be an issue. I think, I think when you're at the level of conditioning you're at, that's, you know, So what you gain 100 grams of fat like you're you're, you're, you're fine, right. And that may be occurring anyway with a carbohydrate load and and if someone's celebrating post show, etcetera. So I definitely think there's a use case and I think that there are some people who adapt better to low carbohydrate diets than others.

That's absolutely something that we've observed in the literature. I was actually part of a trial for a master's student this is offseason. It wasn't in the context of dieting, but I went on a 12 week period of consuming around 70 to 90 grams of carbohydrates a day but still eating maintenance calories and high protein.

So this is a modified low carb diet, not quite ketogenic, although I probably was actually in the if I was to, you know get a keto stick probably was in ketosis some more days than not. And I was one of four other athletes, a mixture of weight lifters and power lifters and there was some really interesting divergent responses. So we did four weeks of tracking just that maintenance, our normal, you know, our normal diet, 12 weeks on this modified low carb diet.

And then four weeks afterwards going back to our habitual eating patterns. And we looked at skin fold changes and subjective interviews and reports of satiety and also progress in terms of our lifts relative to the trajectory of our progress in prior competitions.

And it was kind of clear we had one person who was actually me who did not who basically saw a a poor outcome in terms of their strength performance when they went on a low carb diet like it's I stopped progressing and I actually regressed a little bit. And then we had two people who kind of plateaued their strength but they lost somebody weight from the body weight you'd

expect to lose going low carb. So the relative strength improved And then we had two people who kept the same exact trajectory of strength improvement and lost body weight. So their relative strength, they're coefficient in powerlifting or weightlifting, Sinclair score at the time Wilkes score and their absolute strength kept increasing at the same rate. And then you saw people whose body weight stayed the same and didn't go down and you know, I saw other people who had

dropped. So for me, for example, while my performance went down, I also started to lose skin folds and I found myself satiated for the first four weeks. So like my, when I eat a a low carb diet, I walk around probably 2% body fat lower all the time. Whether that's worth it in terms of the gym performance. I ultimately said no. But I I think you're gonna get people who are gonna cluster and have some beneficial outcomes,

some negative. And if you get enough clustering for a person where the positives outweigh the negatives, that's when I think you get those anecdotes of like, well, this has really worked quite well for me. So it's absolutely possible to do bodybuilding on a low carb diet for I would say a sizable minority, if maybe not a majority of people. Whether it is better or beneficial or optimal, I think that probably would be a far

lower number. But I think we have enough anecdotes where it's you cannot deny that some people would do just fine on one or the other and then they can lean on personal preference. And there are gonna probably be some people who would actually is better for and it might be worth experimenting. I think an.

Important caveat when it pertains to the ketogenic diet and optimizing performance is that individuals that want to go that route truly allow their body time to fully adapt to maximize fat metabolism as the primary fuel source. I see so many people bouncing from one to the other and trying to, you know, play the middle ground and they wind up getting stuck in this purgatory limbo land where they're not really capitalizing on the benefits carbohydrates have to offer or

fat metabolism has to offer. And most of the studies unfortunately are such short period studies that they're not really allowing the participants to fully adapt anyways, which is going to skew the results, oftentimes negatively, towards the ketogenic diet. And the adaptation process is not, I mean you can be producing ketones in, you know, short order, but that is far different than actually performing at a

high level. So that process takes a lot longer than many people are willing to to undergo so. Anecdotally for you, how long have you observed when you've had people go on ketogenic diets, how long does it take for them to to fully adapt to it well? They start getting the psychological benefits and just like they they report better mental acuity, better satiety, things of that nature within, you know, a few days to a week.

But from a performance standpoint, I always tell people, look, give it a solid six months without deviation before you make an opinion one way or the other. And what I've noticed in myself is that that continues to trend positively the more time I am adapted, which is why I don't do cyclical keto or targeted keto or have random high carb days, because I don't want to interfere with that deeper level of adaptation that seems to compound over time.

Interesting, yeah. Because one one of the issues I have with some of the critiques of the studies of ketogenic diets is that the IT almost presents itself as a logical fallacy. Like no matter how long people watch the adaptation, period. The people who who have a bias towards low carb diets be like I wasn't long enough, you know? I agree and I and it becomes remove those fallacies for sure.

Yeah, and and. I'm not saying you're saying that, but it does become like how long is a piece of string, you know? And I'm not saying this, this encompasses everything. But when we look at some of the studies on muscle Physiology and the metabolic adaptations to actual muscle tissue, those happen pretty they've pretty impressively the degree that one can adapt and the studies on, you know, glycogen preservation, how it kind of goes down at 1st.

And then all of a sudden you're seeing people with normal quote, UN quote, glycogen levels who have been on low carb diets and are endurance athletes. And you're like, well, what's going on here? And I don't think most people know this, but like if you give people a glycogen depleting bout of training, not even who are necessarily like keto adapted and you just give them water, they do replenish glycogen.

Like we have a robust ability to exchange energy substrates because glycogen's too important. So I think there are some misconceptions around it and that this process probably happens even faster in when one is keto adapted. But from what I've seen, you know, where you're talking on the order of weeks, the muscle has made energetic adaptations to where it is using fat far more effectively, and that starts to plateau.

But I'm definitely open to the idea that there are other, more systemic adaptations that take longer. Or maybe it's a psychological or behavioral habituation, or maybe there's neuromuscular adaptations that are more central. Because you're not the only one who's told me that anecdotally it seems to take longer and that it gets better with time, although I'm not sure if that is necessarily like all Physiology or even all muscle Physiology.

Yeah, I've got no. Doubt that some of it is is in tandem with other factors beyond just Physiology, but I wouldn't recommend somebody totally 180 their nutrition like during peak week for instance, without yeah. Testing. Things out beforehand, Yeah. Eric, I can literally talk to you all day long man. But I want to be respectful of

your time. We'll have to do another follow up podcast because I want to dive deeper into 3 DMJ and that as a business that as a brand that as a coaching platform because I love what you're doing with that alongside your your colleagues there. But I also have to extend you a Congrats because just last week the WNBF changed their their regulations. So we do no longer have to compete every two years to maintain pro status, which I I

feel you are excited about. I'm certainly excited about because I think as natural athletes competing every two years, when you're spending six months in a deficit and three months, four months, five months on recovery, that that's just

not ample time. Yeah. I mean I'm sure you and I both are very motivated now that we've turned pro to try to bring the next level and considering how long it took both of us to turn pro, I know for me doing that in a two year period, it feels like a tall order for a short period of time. And yeah, and then just generally like you know I I have, I've competed no no more frequently even as an amateur than every two years.

So to think that I kind of have to hold myself to that schedule has always been something that I would say the entire natural community has kind of kind of raised their hand and go hey, can we change this. And I'm really, really pleased and appreciative of the WNBF leadership for taking that step forward. I think it's an important thing for our sport, so that's, I think it's great news, man, I am. And I'd love to. Come back on to talk about 3 DMJ for sure, yeah, yeah.

You are always invited. I definitely want to keep the conversation going because that is definitely something I wanted to touch on because like I said, y'all been in this for a long time. You bring a wealth of knowledge to the table and you've changed more lives than than y'all were

ever ever realized. Just with the content you put out freely on the intra webs, what you're working, you know, doing with people, one-on-one and client coaching relationships, just how you interact with people on a day-to-day basis. I haven't got utmost respect for you and the entire team and I'm excited that we were able to formally meet in person and keep the conversation going.

Thank you so much, Robert. I really appreciate that It means the world and I feel I owe so much to the natural bodybuilding community. So to hear that we're making that positive impact it it means a tremendous amount. Thank you. You absolutely. Are Where? Where do people go to find out more about you and dive deeper into your world? 3D muscle journey.com You said it, so that's the the number three, the letter D musclejourney.com.

And then from there you can find the links to all kinds of stuff from our our YouTube channel where I'm logging my offseason, and to where the other coaches do a lot of great work. As well as well as to the vault where we have courses.

If you want to become a student of the sport, and if you really want to nerd out, we've got links to my books The Muscle and Strength Pyramids as well as Mass Research Review, where I'm one of the the many authors who writes about the latest scientific information that's most relevant to, you know, hypertrophy, body composition and and strength and resistance training, adaptation and fat loss. Well, I will certainly. Link it to all those. Make it easy for people to find you.

And if anybody's listening to this podcast, they should also go ahead and subscribe to the Iron Culture podcast because that is also putting out some great information. Yes. And we also have the three DMJ podcast if you really want a natural, bodybuilding specific podcast and I appreciate that, man. Thank you. I love it. Eric we'll keep killing it, man. We'll be in touch and have a great 2024 brother and enjoy the remainder of your recovery diet back at you. Take care, man. You too.