Well hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com and today I've got special guest Michael Letty on the podcast. He is an ultra endurance athlete. He's been running putting some serious miles. He just got done doing a basically 100 kilometer run not too long ago leveraging A ketogenic diet. He has battled with epileptic seizures for the majority of his life and he has adopted A ketogenic way of eating and lifestyle to combat those seizures.
So I really wanted to just pick his brain as to what he's found in himself having gone through that. How he's been able to benefit from a keto drink diet, How he's been able to incorporate a keto drink diet in tandem with his endurance running endeavours. So very enjoyable podcast, learned a ton of getting no debt that you will take something from this. So that further delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the conversation with Michael Letty and we are live. Michael, how are you Sir?
I am good. Thank you. Honored to be here. Hey, I'm excited to be chatting with you, man. Excited to be chatting with you. So you are a you're a beast when it comes to all things endurance sports, man, Like you just got done doing. It was called the The Two. It was a 200 kilometer temptations round was what it was called, right? That's correct. And the idea was that it was a 16 mile loop that you would you could keep running.
And the idea is were you tempted to do another loop of 16 miles? Could you do another 16 miles to get farther and farther? And you know I had a goal to I was running with a friend but been nagging me for months to get and do this. And I'm like, I I this doesn't sound fun. This is Type 3 fun. Never was a good idea. Never was fun. Wasn't fun after, but cool to do. And finally a case of events. I, I, I, I said yes. And he was like OK, I've already your ticket. Oh my God.
OK. Like we're going into the middle of, we're going 4 hours South of Chicago to a place in Illinois and called Habana and the small State Park and this had, you know, had from how it had sand in it, which I'm from the West Coast or from California. So I I just didn't understand how there's sand in a forest in Illinois. But from my understanding, it was a glacial deposit. And we, you know, we checked it out the day before see what we
were doing. We started at, I think it was a it was a 4:00 AM run and you know how far and how long could you go? You know my goal was to do 12 hours. I'd never run this kind of distance. My friend had done a 50 Miller and I had, I think I had the pardons. I had done this 30 miles at that time. And so I was like, OK, your pacing. My friend is a lot taller than me. He's 6-7. Well, just a little under a foot
taller. So when he walks I still have to kind of jog and I'm looking at it like, OK, let's let's see where this where this goes. Let's just do it. And it was, it was quite an adventure, you know. And that's kind of where where I came came to you. I I had heard about your bricks and your keto bricks. I've been using your keto bricks having been on the Ketogenic for
six years. And you know, I I need someone who is actually well versed in keto, which is harder to find than I anticipated, especially when it comes to endurance. You know, just what do I do that that really, that was a big help to be able to reach out to you and get an instant response and just be like, OK, there's a game plan here. I tried. That was my big.
I don't ever claim to be an endurance specialist by any means, but I know a lot of people that that are in the endurance sport and follow a Kitty genic lifestyle so I can throw a few pointers your way, but running like that distance man is no freaking joke. Are have you always been into running? I know you said that the longest you've done prior to that was about 30 miles, but have you always been interested in just running in general?
You know, my growing up, I grew up in Marin County, just north of the Golden Gate Bridge here in the Bay Area. And growing up, you know, I had never done more than five miles till I was 25. So it was, it was always I did track throughout high school, did football, did basketball. So everything was, you know, very quick. You know, you have a lot of quick speed and then you're done. So I never, even with running in track, I'd never done more than a 400 for a race which is 1 lap
around the track. So I was like, you know what what what kind of changed was, I mean I guess, you know, out of all the things that went wrong with COVID, there were some good things. And you know, starting to run was distance was a great thing for me. And that's that's kind of where it started. You know, we're kind of locked up here and I was living in San Francisco at the time, still AM. And you know what?
What can I do? It's like, OK, I know how to run short, but like, how do I keep running and keep running? And it just, it started with going running to the track, doing the track workout and running back. And then it's like, OK, let's progress this a little. Start with three miles, 5 miles. Next thing it's 7 miles. And this took months. And then it's like, OK, wow, I I
actually feel pretty good here. And I do 10 and that's kind of where it just started from there for for my sake at least, but to backtrack a little. Sorry, go ahead. Running like like I said, I'm not an endurance athlete by any stretch of the imagination. But running is such a mental sport. Like, especially when you're doing an endurance running, when you're going for miles on end, you have to just dig down into some deep, dark place in your
mind to keep going forward. And I love campaigns. I love David Goggins. I love like where they take themselves mentally to go that next mile. So the fact that this race was structured such that it was a 16 mile loop and every time you crested that 16 mile mark you had the option to do it again or not like that is it's kind of like this built in psychological suck factor where it's like testing. Oh, totally. Well said. You know, it's really just like
I could be done, but am I done? You know, that's kind of the question. You know, you have to ask yourself and you really kind of you're beating yourself up after you cross that finish line. I mean I think there was a, you know we're we're not running fast. The the whole point is not to run fast. It's all about duration And after an hour, just a couple hours, 3 hours, you know, you're like, OK, I'm, I'm still feeling
all right. You know, 5-6 hours, you're like, I'm talking to my friends still we're having a conversation. We still like each other. We're still running together, you know, 12 hours. You're like, oh man, this is brutal. What are what are we doing this for? You know the mental games like you said is really can you do another loop? You know can you go another 4 miles, You know this kind of curveball thrown into us during the race of hey, there's these small these hills but they're
sanded. So you're like running on a hilled beach and you're like OK this is this is not fun by any stretch. Like let's let's get past this. But every little bit it's just you know as you've talked about recently you know with meditation it's it's trying to be present and not thinking about the anguish that it's going to happen in the next hour. I'm going to be here for this long.
It's just trying to really stay focused on the moment and that got harder and harder as as the race went on. But that also as as you've discussed many times, you know it's like doing these hard things. How much you feel better after is was something that was so cool to just kind of live and just really enjoy as you're going you can kind of hear your hit the hit, the little milestones. You're like, OK, I'm 32, I'm 48 and I'm like, wow, I'm all right.
And you know it's it didn't help that it was also like 90°. We ran this on Labor Day weekend and you know there's humidity too. Luckily we're shades shade covered for quite a bit of it. But still it was, it was, it was a lot of it was really a lot of pushing yourself and just to back up a lot, just to back up a bit here. Why was I doing this, what this meant mentally to me? You know, I I've for 20 years I've been diagnosed with
epilepsy and I had gone through. I've been epileptic since I was 11 years old. So 2003 when I had my first seizure and my friend I'm running with actually saw that first seizure. I was with him. We've been childhood friends and you know, over the years it's been just trying to get, you know, I've been trying to. My parents did a great job of just trying to let me live kind
of a normal life on that front. I was having seizures prior to 2012. I'll be growing up like every 7 to 12 days when they weren't these tonic, clonic or the, as you hear the the grand Mal seizures. At times there were some, but they were very, you know, these I would be out of it. They're called partial complex where I'm just staring and not can't hear anything and don't
remember. And as you know as time went on, I was like looking back on it, maybe football shouldn't have been the sport I played, but I did and I had a great time. You know, I have a lot of memories from it. Good memories. But building on the epilepsy bit I, I, I, you know, I, I graduated college there. Graduated to high school, you know, with SAD and seizures. Went off to college had to come back because of the epilepsy. Started to get a lot worse. And then I I looked at what are
my options here. I've taken a lot of medications. OK what are what are options? I'm, you know, there's low, low level depression at the time, you know, hey, I'm back at home when everyone's at school, all the fun stuff of being a teenager, late teenager. But I looked at, you know, doing brain surgery and I was like, really, am I is this something I can actually deal with or is it something I want to put forward?
But you know, I think with a lot of conversation at the time with my parents and their support and just speaking to doctors, it was probably my best option. And in 2012, I was 20 years old and I had what's called AI, had a craniotomy to start, which is where you open your head, open your skull. And then I had, after a few days of sitting there waiting for a seizure to happen, I had a multiple sub pouches.
It's called MST and the ideas that they're trying to read your brain, my seizures start from a little focal point and they're trying to you know cut off the from the source where the the seizures would start and go to the rest of my brain. And I did it and it and it worked for a year. I thought it was cured. I didn't have any seizures and this is going from two or three a month for a month to zero and I was like whoa, this is really cool.
And in that time I I actually, due to my epilepsy, I never actually drank growing up. I turned 21 like four months after I had some alcohol on my 21st fun there. But I moved on to a different college locally and lived with a good friend of mine and I had After about a year and a half later, I started to have these seizures again. This was kind of a, you know, ebb and flow of my epilepsy throughout college and after college. And then weirdly enough I I sometimes do go skiing and had a
knee accident. I I was too cheap to put hiking boots that were. I put them in a locker. I put them in my backpack and went off a big ski jump and actually broke my back. And in that moment I I, I, I had a compression fracture. Didn't have surgery. But recovering from that, I realized, OK, well, what is something that I can control here to help with my epilepsy?
After my aunt was who's in the health, you know, gave me the book called Brain Grain. And that book, you know, just discussed the ketogenic diet in a different manner and how maybe, you know, this has been used for many years and this is something maybe to look toward. And I was like, OK, this is something that I can do with my epilepsy. It's not a pill. It's something that I can control and let's let's, let's try it. You know why not? What do I have to lose at this
point? So I started Inject diet in 2017 and I went epilepsy free for a little over 2 years and it was amazing, crazy that this diet you know just changing how what you eat. And I mean that seems, you know you hear it in many different forms now being in 2024. But then it was it wasn't as much talked about. I mean I could relate to you. You started in 20/20/2014.
That's crazy. It was not even the thought of Keto. I think on my end it was Luckily I was writing the Keto trend was starting to become more popular and that was that was something I'm grateful for, but it was.
When you were having these seizures on a you know, three or four months, like how was that affecting you prior to the the operation like were were you like I'm assuming that probably you know, impacted your social environment like how how you interact with people like what was the biggest implication of that I guess during that chapter in your. Life, High school, college, you know, And that chapter of your life was mostly. I grew up, my dad worked in the car industry. I loved cars.
We'd go to car shows. Just not being on the drive was a big thing. I I didn't realize I would be such a big thing. But also luckily I had really good friends who I'd grown up with and had seen this. So having a seizure wasn't. You know, I would say sorry after and feel bad, but mostly just the thought that I would have to be thinking constantly, OK, what am I doing here? So I feel like I'm having a seizure.
It it was mostly just feeling kind of left out at times when friends would go out and do stuff. You know when I started to get out of college, you know, kids would people, my friends would go out maybe party and do stuff like that. And I was just like, I I literally can't do that. I got to be better about that and that was kind of the toughest portion that I didn't. If I went, I would feel left out.
And granted I'm in late teens, early 20s, but I that was, that was probably the toughest part of being left out. When that started to become a big thing, when it was more, you know, going out, going out at night, when I was like, this is stuff that I I really can't partake in because it's just going to affect my health the next day and the day after and the day after. Could you like pinpoint anything that was an act that was acting as a catalyst for bringing the
seizures on? Like was there anything that you would? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There were a couple things. First was sleep deprivation. If I had, you know, if I had lack of sleep, usually that was kind of what would be a big trigger, dehydration. So I was, you know, always carrying a water bottle with me. Still am to this day. I think nowadays most people do. And last thing was heat. Like really getting warmer, like doing hard exercise in in high heat and it really doesn't get
that warm. But you know when it's 80 plus or 85 plus and you're running around the track and that brings up the temperature. That was that was where I was finding I had the most at and playing like basketball just because it was so quick. You know, we get warm in a gym and basketball was all the time. And I played for. Sorry, Clive. When you were when you were going through that chapter, like were you doing anything specific with your nutrition or were you just kind of falling like a
standard American? Diet. I didn't know anything. I was just same American diet. You know, I I was eating anything before, before 2017. I was just, I loved food and boy, I could consume it. And you know, food had never crossed my mind as being, you know, it's like take this medication, see how it feels.
You know, you did this big brain for surgery in 2012 and then that worked and then then it was kind of like let's try a different medication, kind of the typical, you know, way you would deal with epilepsy from a typical American point, I should say, you know, going through the healthcare system and when you you try this, try this. Healthcare system and they they did that procedure on you. Was there much discussion then around nutrition at all, or was it pretty much?
No, no, absolutely not. You know, I look back at it maybe in 20, 2000 and seven, 2008. I'm seeing my neurologist in my, I think my mom asked about this diet. And you know, my neurologist at the time was like, oh, that that's that's too hard. It's for children. I didn't realize it till years later. She was asking about the ketogenic because it was, you know, used on children, but young children, not usually the teenagers.
So it was usually used on kids who had epilepsy that were 5-6 years old and under because moms or dads, parents could control what the kid ate, but it got too hard. That's what what was always said and. Then when you. Crazy to think of. Yeah, very crazy. And then after, after you had your procedure and you went two years without having a seizure, what, what was the the catalyst for that coming back and
returning? Because that probably came as a shock to you having gone two years without a single one. Yeah. So having the surgery in 2012, you know, and it was about a year and a half. It was, you know, I thought it was pretty much seizure free. I could do all this stuff that was supposedly the fun for drinking, you know, going out and partying, that kind of
stuff. I I I thought there wasn't AI really kind of put it in the back of my head, back of my mind, like I don't have to worry about this stuff anymore. And I'm 1920 at the time. So, you know, when they came back, it was just kind of like, hey, you know, back to reality here. Yeah, you're fun. But now you got to focus on this. And it wasn't even then. That was 20 late 2013. So those four years I was just not nutrition doing decently.
My seizures were more controlled than they were prior to that surgery, but they were still occurring. And they would occur in flutters. Like for instance, I would have one for I would have maybe five or six in a three month, four month period and not have one for two months, not having one for three months. So it was a little, it was very unpredictable. You know, I can do all these athletic things, but that was always there that that might happen.
And you know, I'm, I'm from the 90s, The helicopter parent did occur. I'm an only child. So, you know, my parents were worried and rightfully so, right. So, I mean, I'm getting with epilepsy, you know, getting the phone call from a friend was usually the, uh, oh, you know, let's go pick him up. Let's go get him like, Oh no. And that was an aspect that that was just part of my life. It was just there. I didn't know much else without it. I've had it since 1111 years old.
So it was it wasn't till I got a bit older and had that skiing accident you know and I I I think I just by help a little more seriously which may be hard to kind of think about at this at this day, this day and age. But at the time I was just trying to live and just try to have just trying to be a person and not really have that epilepsy control me I would say, or control my actions, but then breaking my back.
When you've got, like that weight on your shoulders in the back of your mind at all times, like you feel like you're not able to take certain risks or not able to live to the fullest because you've got that potential just constantly weighing on you. But if you don't really know what the catalyst for that seizure is or what you can do to control it, it's like you always have to kind of move. Forward. It's always in the back of your
head. Yeah, like, OK, if I do this basketball here, we're gonna play some basketball. But try to have fun, you know? And look at sometimes I have like prior to a seizure, they're called an aura. The feeling some people have very different. Everyone seems to have a different little aspect of what that aura feels like, almost say a metallic taste in your mouth. For me, it's usually, I would describe it.
It's very hard to describe it as portion like having thoughts that I can't think of unless I'm having a seizure. Sometimes they just occur like that and I'm gone and I don't remember anything. And yeah, I think, you know just in the time I didn't know any better. I just thought that was. That's just what it was. So I didn't really have anything to compare it to.
Yes, my friends you could say, but in the moment I was just like, OK, like I should be a little careful here but I wasn't too, too controlled about doing that. I should say I was. I was more in the moment just like let's have fun. Let's OK, we're going to play a game of basketball and then take it a little too far and like, uh, oh, OK, I need to step back. Just give me a minute.
That's not a great way to answer your question, but it was just I guess it's more just trying not to focus on this epilepsy as being kind of a a ruler in my life. Yeah, not totally. And when you started dabbling into keto in 2017, like were you going? Because when you look at how the ketogenic that was prescribed for children with epilepsy, it was incredibly high fat. Yeah, 90% fat. Oh, it was incredible. It was terrible. And I didn't look. And I saw that. And I was like, OK, how is that
supposed to work out? I actually met with someone. I met with a nutritionist at the time, and it gave me kind of a booklet of like, here's what you eat, here's what you don't eat. And I I had known some of this. And, you know, hey, let's start with a fast for 18 hours to kind of let your body get into ketosis and then start eating the ketogenic foods.
And I remember before this is late August, I believe in 2017, I'm doing it. And my friends were like, so you're going to try this for, like, life. And in my head, it was kind of like, I hadn't thought that far. But if it works, like, yeah, I'd rather take this than, you know, deal with more medication, right. I mean that that seemed like a win win to me. And, you know, the food wasn't like, terrible. I guess that's what I, when I saw at the beginning, I was
like, this wasn't like, bad. This is pretty good food. I get to eat meats. I get to eat, you know, certain veggies. Like, I have chicken, I have meat. I fish all the time. This doesn't seem bad at all. And I just look. It's funny to think that. But the week before thinking I'm never gonna go back off the ketogenic again in my life, I hit all these places that Chick-fil-A in and out. You know, just to be like, OK, I can try it for the last time. It's never going to happen again.
But then you get the ketogenic. And you know the first couple weeks are tough. I know everyone talks about that keto flu. My dad actually joined. I was living at home at the time and he he's like, hey, I'll do this with you to kind of support you, just to have someone in the house to support you. And I I didn't experience that keto flu that people really talk about. My dad did. Granted, he had had sugar in his coffee for 30 years and then one day didn't.
So I I, you know, I think that really got him for the first couple weeks. Man, that's that's. But after that he, I mean, it's pretty admirable that he decided to just jump in and do it with you. I mean. Yeah, back it was. It was really, really a helpful thing. Really helpful. I'm lucky that he would support me in that way. Were you trying to target? Specific macros at that point? Or were you just trying to eat
the eat the right foods? In the first couple months it was all about hitting that 85% fat. How do I get that? And it was, it wasn't easy. It was 85% fat, fat, excuse me, 10% protein and 5% carbs. That was one I'd seen that was, and that was really difficult. You know, it was like having I would always do a big salad and still do to this day, just because there's a lot of hand to mouth, just eating and the thought of eating.
But it'd be adding like dressing, 4 teaspoons of dressing, then 2 tablespoons of olive oil and then eating usually chicken thighs or some fattier piece of meat, A little bit of vegetables. Usually I go with broccoli, but then after it's like, how can I hit this? OK, Macadamia nuts were a big hit for me. That was one of the biggest. I was looking in the last couple days before we were talking here of my fitness pal because I was tracking here and it was constant.
Just the snacks at the bottom from, you know, 8:00 to 10:00 PM were constant. Macadamia nuts. Macadamia nuts. I I hard to learn kind of the hard way that you know, when you're doing these macros it's easy to eat a ton of calories and that was very noticeable the first six months. I was like wow, I don't remember being this big. My gosh it took a long it took a while for my state to realize OK, I need to eat less calories because this. I'm getting too big here.
I gained like 10 to 15 lbs and I was looked like a beer belly. It was really just a Maccabee, a nut deli. If that's a thing. Let's just munch it on these things. They're so good, but they just eat. They're good. Just way too easy to just, you know, eat. And I I didn't know anyone else on the Ketogenic at the time. My only kind of source was just hitting those macros.
And over time I found OK, like, I like started about a year and I decided to do. I decided to climb Mount Shasta which was June of 2018 and I decided, OK, I need to really lower that calorie count. How abouts do I do that? Looking back it wasn't the smartest thing but I went down to like 2100 calories a day, 2000 calories a day to really drop weight and I think in a matter of two months I dropped about 20 lbs. But mostly it was the bulletproof coffee which was big at the time.
It still is the sum. I don't I don't hear about it nearly as much the the ghee the coffee and then the MCT oil and mixing that up. I I had called the powder these days just I think it's pretty good thing to add and it's a good spot in my opinion. But that was, you know, that was breakfast. And then have this tiny little salad that was just lettuce, a tablespoon of primal kitchen mayonnaise and primal kitchen dressing because it was not
about avocado based oils. Have that just to feel like I'm eating something even though it was not that calorically dense. And then go big at dinner and eat the rest of my calories at dinner. Yeah, that was kind of for three months I did that. That was it was, you know, it was hard And I was like, oh God, why do people do this?
It made me, you know, looking back, respectable, or when I started reading your emails, your newsletters and got your keto bricks was like, OK, he's doing 1600 dollars. Oh God to them. Are you doing that? That was my very, very short time. I'm. I'm definitely not that low more often than not, yeah. I, I, I you know not not on the daily weather. I I think, you know, getting towards that, just planning for something, having some sort of debt, you know, deadline, OK, doing this till June.
That really helped and it really helped my ketosis levels at the time. So I had the meter, the keto mojo meter and tracking blood samples every day and I was really hooked on those numbers, you know, Oh my God, my ketones aren't high enough. My ketones aren't high enough. And you know, not realizing that that does fluctuate throughout the day, I thought they had to be as high as possible, high as
possible. And I was just like, OK, they're at only at .9 or one millimol liter per liter needs to be at two like eating glass. And I was. It was a lot of trial and error at the time looking at it, but. How far into it did it take for you to, like, stop having any seizures? Like, at what point were you like, OK, I've I've gone seizure free as a result of this diet, and I can feel confident that it's because of this diet.
I had a seizure the first day I started epilepsy and then didn't have one for a dove 882 years almost. So that was a big deal for me. I knew it was doing something. I I knew definitely something was working. I you know, in that first few months I definitely felt different. The mental clarity got there that was noticeable. The ability to just kind of understand what hunger feels like and then that's OK to be hungry. I don't need to eat every second. That helped on that regard.
But it it I was pretty noticeable pretty quick. I would say within six months I was, my parents were like, OK, this, this isn't that insane. Like, this is actually working. Like you're not having seizures. You're working out. Like you're doing all right. Like, this is wow, this is incredible. Did you notice, like if you were below a certain ketone range, you were more like to have a seizure or anything like that? Would you track as much as you were? I I don't.
I didn't get any auras in that period. So that's kind of really how I measure it. It's like do I feel an aura coming on or did I have a seizure in that time period? I really wasn't having any of it, you know, I didn't feel that. I didn't feel that no matter I didn't sleep a little or I slept a lot, which was usually that's the biggest one.
If I haven't slept you know a couple days the the the chances of having a seizure the the threshold really is less and so my chances are much higher so but I I I didn't feel that our outcome at all for for over a couple years and that that's that's what was crazy to me. I had done something that I can control to help my up blood see. That's empowering man. And then when you it's. Really empowering. You had an you had another seizure 2 years into doing the
ketogenic diet you said. Yeah. So in that meantime, during those few years I had moved out of the house, I lived with some friends. I picked up a job managing about help, managing 250 units in San Francisco. So I was driving, had my little Smart car here in San Francisco, easy to get around, it was great. And then few years into that, I, you know, everything had been good. I didn't think I was, you know, I found something I could adhere
to like this Lifestyle's great. I found that OK, I think I have got it. This the ketogenic diet is the thing. It is it. And then about two weeks before the pandemic, I had a seizure while driving and crashed into three cars and broke someone's leg. Man, crazy. This is March of 2020, just right before it all started. And that that's when I would say after that, I I hit a pretty big low right after that. I mean they're, you know, I
can't drive. I can't go anywhere on my own accord and then we can't go anywhere because we're being regulated not to. So it kind of all just hit me in what that was the toughest. Part seizure. Was there any? It's a good question. I, I, you know, I I look back on it, you know, at the time I'm still doing, you know, I was drinking, but it was very calculated. OK Am I doing this? Am I working the next day? Am I doing something? So, you know, it was very calculating.
Is this Aikido? Is this one shot of, you know, whiskey And maybe something. It was very like what am I doing the next day? So I had not had any alcohol in the prior days to it and I slept well and that's what was the bummer. I really didn't have anything. I could pinpointed on at all. And so it just really came out of the blue and I'm sitting there and you know, the next couple days I'm still managing these 250 units in San Francisco and I'm working with an owner who owns his properties.
And it was, you know, how do I get around everywhere? And it was just starting to bike, bike everywhere in San Francisco, and San Francisco's known for its hills. So it was a, you know, looking back, it was a great workout, but it was, it was, it was a little tough mentally just to be like, OK, I'm going to this place. How do I get there? What's my best place to get there? How's my best route with the
least amount of hills? And yeah, I would say at that point it was like, OK, I I had not lost faith in the ketogenic diet. But I I think I knew that it wasn't the end all that it is that I thought it was. And in that minute of that seizure happening that minute driving what had happened well encompassed from it I was kind of I didn't feel like I was back to square one. But I was just so like distraught with the fact that, OK, like something else has got to change or something.
I got to do something. Or, you know, maybe this is just the way it is and trying to find acceptance with that. And within a month of two months of that happening is when I started to run. And that's over time, like we were discussing that. I was just finding running is mostly not even because I could, but just because it was so therapeutic. It was the best way to get my kind of mind out ofgether and kind of get above and feel
better mentally. And you haven't had any issues with the the heat or the exertion from the running triggering another seizure? They have. Oh yeah. There's been probably, you know, I think I calculated it. I mean at one point I've probably since that beginning of that run, I think I've had two or three seizures while running and that's less than 1%. So it it doesn't happen often, but it is a factor. But at that point it was more like, you know, everything is a
risk. You know, getting in a car and driving on the freeway is a risk. You know, there's a small risk that I could run and everyone and a lot of people would point that out, OK, do you think you should be running? And it was like, you know, I running was kind of the thing that I had that I could control, that I could do, that I could push myself with, Yeah, there's a less than 1% chance that I may have a seizure but still be it. Yeah. I just, I can't let that.
I can't let seizure or epilepsy take everything on that front. Yeah, I agree, man. I feel like there's there's calculated risk and there's also a point at which that risk is so worth it, because if you were to remove all risk, you just simply would not live a fulfilled life, and that is a far more costly expense than what could have come from the seizure itself. Agreed. And yeah, that's that's well said. Need my neurologist too.
I'm close to now is you know, he's like, hey, I'm not going to tell you, you can't stop running. We're not going to do that. That's something you really enjoy and you got to keep doing. And you know, I, I don't know about you, but I thought that, you know, just asking just a couple questions. I always wanted to ask you're sick. I mean you you went from in 2014 from, you know, doing the kind of standard of bodybuilding and then you went to actually on the Ketogenic.
Can I ask what really triggered that thought or have you read anything about it? Have you heard anything about it before you? Well, I was doing you know standard bro diet and and I had like I was struggling with all kinds of disorder eating, man. Like I was binging and purging and I would like I just was so far removed from a healthy relationship with food and I was trying different diets to find something that was more sustainable for me.
And I stumbled upon John Kiefer's carbohydrate back loading protocol, which is basically ketogenic throughout the day and then a whole bunch of high glycemic index carbs at night. Like the the sugary, the more sugar, the better. And I would do that and I would be eating like just platefuls of brownies and you know, waffles covered in syrup, just like a whole bunch of crap food at night. And I'm like, I'm just going to phase that out because that's probably not the healthiest
thing long term. So I'm just going to phase out carb back loading or I'm going to do carb back loading without carbs basically. And I didn't know what that was, but lo and behold, that's pretty much keto. And I didn't have any concept of macro distribution or pro protein and fat ratios or anything at that. But at that point, just simply having the carbs out of my system, I was able to gained some solid footing with my
relationship with food. I didn't have this guilt associated with the food that I was eating. I didn't have the the energy highs and lows. I just felt a little bit more stable mentally. So I wanted to kind of just lean into that more. And then from there, you know, I was continuing my training obviously, but I didn't really notice any dip in performance with my training. So I'm like OK, I don't, I guess I don't need to have carbs, but maybe I'm some anomaly or
something, I don't know. But then I started just playing around, tweaking things, stumbled upon a podcast with Tim Ferriss and Dom d'agostino and heard them refer to the Ketogenic diet and talk about it. And that's when I really was like, OK, I'm going to dive deep into this. And that's when I really started playing around with macro distributions, different sources of fats, different sources of protein, just getting things dialed in and optimized. And I haven't really looked back
since. That's awesome. That's also I I heard a similar podcast when he, Don d'osio, did one with Joe Rogan. I think it was kind of that same cycle of time like 2014, fifteen, 16. And I heard that and he was, he was doing it for the Navy Seals. But it was just very interesting, thought that was even an option that you could cut these carbs out and that then you could just keep eating fats and protein.
And I think my hardest part, once I'd had these seizures and you know it's COVID, is like, how do I make this the ketogenic? Great for epilepsy, but also for a high activity. And that was something I messed with a little, but it mostly led to the bulletproof coffee in the morning and then fasting till dinner. That was my best way to kind of control it, but I found that eating all this food at night that I was better at working out in the morning, right in the morning.
And that was my I ate a big meal at night, and that basically fuels my next day's work. That's how I look at it, right? And every time in the few times that I've had a seizure while running, I've they've always been post noon or post 1:00. And that was an interesting thing. I did notice. So this is like, OK, I'm gonna continue doing this kind of scheduled, you know, fast and then eat at night. I should probably work out in the morning. Yeah.
That was my best bet. But kind of going back to the, the running portion, you know, after starting to run a little more and doing the first half marathon, I decided, you know, OK, let's see. I think I can do this. You know, this is a full marathon. I think I can try it. And I I did one in on right up north of the Golden Gate Bridge, literally a mile north.
And I it wasn't my smartest choice but I decided to do one that went around the Ridge. These small little mountains that are just north of the Golden Gate Bridge. I think them are in headlands and it was a loop but each it was 4000 feet in elevation. And I I I was just like OK, like I think I can do this. It's not that much I learned the hard way but I ran like 14 miles ran great thought I was doing
really well. And then it's pretty much a case of running tortoise and the hare and it just I was definitely the hare. I I think I got passed by almost everybody for those last 12 miles. And but I think what I'm getting at is that the point that you can do it and you can push yourself and that's where it was kind of like, OK, I can do a marathon, let's keep this going. And then you know I had friends that were starting to run.
I think running became big in my friend group AA lot bigger than it was just because of COVID and so starting to do another marathon or another race running with my friend. It was just it built a sort of confidence here in that then how do I, you know work in the ketogenic. And it was. I found that it was kind of the same application of eating the night before and then and then just having something for water and some electrolytes for these,
you know under 4 hour runs. And then we looked at doing this big temptation. That's when I had to reach out. I was like, how do I run for 18 hours for whatever I'm going to do? And I found that the Akita brick was really the best way for me to be able to consume calories in that moment. And I was actually going to keep to the macros or actually be ketogenic, because when you look at products out there for endurance, it's all the goo.
It's all heavy, heavy sugar. Well, there's such a preconceived notion about what's possible from a performance standpoint in both, you know, lifting in my realm and body composition, but also with endurance. And there's just like this stigma against not having carbohydrates. And it's so strange, but like when I talk to people that are diabetic or people like yourself that have epilepsy and they, they don't consume carbohydrates
for obvious reasons. They still want to perform optimally and they still want to be competitive on race day or show day, whatever it is. So I mean, I love talking to people like you because it's like you're a perfect illustration of what's possible in the complete absence of carbohydrates. I mean, you just get done running. How many miles was it total that you wound up clocking in it? Was 62. So I think it's equivalent to 100 KA 100 kilometers.
Yeah, and you're doing that with keto bricks and electrolytes. Keto bricks, electrolytes, pretty much. You had, thankfully you had mentioned the within you by Mark Bell, the the electrolytes that had the amino acids. That was huge. Those were really big.
Just, you know, I think I went to 2, 1/2 keto bricks that were all sliced up. I think I'd sent a photo and you know, just chopping it like it's some big piece of meat, just eating them at at, you know, at every kind of every couple hours and eating a couple bites and just, you know, all the other aid stations, people are like, what are you eating? And I'm like these Kubricks, you know, I had the label on there too and it was just funny to see everyone's face like, huh, like
what is that? You know? But it it it's, it's it's a cool, it's a cool thing what what you've done being able to take that brand and really do something that's so applicable in so many different ways. I mean I've used it for travelling just to have as a backup you know, in case I can't consume calories going to friends houses and they're like, hey, there's nothing really keto here we're having you know lasagna and other pastas. I'm like, OK, not a problem just bring that have it with me in
the back. I mean that's that's a hard thing that that I had no idea about till you know early last year when I found your product and and I I I I can't say thank you enough because it's been really helpful for me. Well, no, for sure, man. I I appreciate the kind words. And for me, I just want to give people options. You know, like I I wanted to compete on the elite level as a natural bodybuilder against the grain, not using carbohydrates.
I wanted to showcase people that are doing the same thing in different sports like yourself with endurance. Like people need to know that there's an outlet for them to perform at a high level without being a slave to carbohydrates. If they don't respond well to carbohydrates, if they have a, you know, troubled food relationship with carbohydrates, or if they simply can't tolerate them because they're diabetic or epileptic or anything like that. Like like if you have an issue
with carbs. In my mind, it would. It would be crippling if I thought that I couldn't do the things that I want to do unless I had carbs and I can't eat carbs like that would be very. Debilitating, but if. You can know that that's not the case, and you can point to people that are doing awesome things at an incredibly high level. In the complete absence of carbohydrates like, that's empowering.
Absolutely, it really is. And you know, I don't know about you if you had a lot of doubters in the beginning, but I think I just had a lot of people that just weren't educated or just had not educated as a wrong term use but more just didn't have any idea aware of this ketogenic diet. And you know as a kid, I remember this vividly. I had a cousin that I was close to and I ate just the fat off a piece of meat. And my cousin, I remember he ridiculed me. We're like six or seven And he's
like, oh, that's the nasty part. Why are you doing that? And he just kept doing it. I was like, does it taste good? What do you mean? Here we are 20 years later and I'm, you know, eating the fat because it's so healthy for for for my brain and for my health. And it's funny just how that how that thought changes over time. No for sure, man. And when you when you step back and look at it like it's like we have to justify to people what, why we're eating the way we do.
But then when we actually look at the food that's on our plate, it's all real food. You know, like we don't have to justify, we shouldn't have to justify why we're eating, you know, a whole animal based plate of food. Whereas someone that's eating a bunch of goose that's just completely processed junk has no need to justify their consumption of that. And that's like totally backwards. And I just totally backwards.
A funny thing about the ketogenic diet that I found is that I started eating a lot more vegetables. Weird. You know, I started eating a ton of broccoli and not, you know, to get on macros, but just because I thoroughly enjoyed it and you know, hey, OK, it's broccoli, asparagus, those are been my go TOS and I've really enjoyed them more so than I did growing up. Maybe it's because, you know, hey, if you bake something, it's
a little better roast something. It's a lot better than maybe steaming it. That's that might be #1. But just the fact that like I'm looking for, you know, if I'm looking for some carbs, oh, where are my vegetables, you know, where and I. It's something that I didn't foresee when starting this diet that the little portion that I like to get of carbs or the smaller portion, I should say like I was, I look forward to my vegetables pretty much every
day. Like, hey, are we having any vegetables or we have any vegetables? That's what I ask consistently. Have you ever played around with like a carnivore variation of keto just to see how you responded? I have not. No, I I haven't you know, gone that path. I I've heard a lot about it, especially in the last couple years. But I I haven't really looked at it. You know, some of the days if I'm like OK, I'm might be a little out of macro like for dinner I'm just gonna eat a keto brick.
That's really what it comes to that sometimes what I do, not too often, but it's really for me, just possibly I had a of eating disorder growing up or you know, just eating a lot of food consuming. It's more of just finding something that's hand to mouth and that's what a big salad will do for me. Just a huge amount of romaine lettuce, which doesn't have that many carbs or nutrition of value, but adding, you know, dressing, a mayonnaise, a sardines and an avocado and mixing it up.
Yeah, it's more volume overall. Just mine. You're just eating for a little while, right? So it feels like you're eating a lot. The salad thing has been the staple. And all my friends like, oh, here comes the keto salad. Like, that's, yeah, everyone knows it. So it's a funny thing. But at at one point, you know what wouldn't you kind of turn over toward the carnivore side? I don't know, man. I like when I'm in a prep.
I want to make the absolute most of the calories that I have a lot of for me. So, like, because there's not much nutritional value in a big salad, you know, I would allocate those calories, those macros to just more fats and proteins. I'm not against greens and veggies at all. I mean a lot of people who consume a ton of them have no issues whatsoever, you know, and
I'm not. I mean I'll incorporate them on occasion, but I'm generally not eating a ton of them when in a prep because I only have so many calories. And now that I'm reversed out and eating more food, I'll probably bring some back into to varying degrees. But honestly, like my GI has been like flawless without them. So I've got no issues from a digestive standpoint going pretty much straight carnivore plus keto bricks. I don't consider myself carnivore because I'll have the
bricks. I'll have you know some fat sources that are not animal based. I'll have you know, just, I don't know, like coconut butter. Coconut oil. Like that's technically nice carnivore, right? Right. So I don't consider myself a carnivore, but I mean 99% of what I eat's definitely animal based. Yeah, No, I mean understandably and it's really helped with your prep and your competition. Congrats on the in October with the becoming a pro. Yeah, I appreciate it, man.
It was. It was pretty awesome. I mean your dedication is huge and it's it's really a it's it's really impressive you know I mean I think it's the Jocko podcast has he gets bad in some episode or just like you know discipline is is beats motivation and he you know he hits the table and it and it's so true.
You know, just there are days when you know, I maybe I don't want to exercise as much or do something, but you just go out and do it and you know, it's just a discipline of staying with it. Well, running perfectly embodies that man. So I mean shout out to you on that front because I mean it's there are definitely days where you wake up and you don't want to strap on those running shoes and hit the road, but I mean you do it anyways, you know, like
that that requires. That's the goal, yeah, pretty good. Degree of mental fortitude right there, I. Think it gives it both ways. I It's funny, I I I I don't know about you. I mean, do you Do you? I mean, when you're not in season, do you find yourself doing cardio other than the Stairmaster? I I'll go on hikes. I'll do like a lot of western hunting. So I'm hiking quite a bit with that, you know, with a heavy load. But I'm not doing a ton of cardio for the sake of doing cardio.
I do like to run on some of the trails out here. You know, we've got some good scenic trails, and I'll run those sometimes, but I'm definitely more likely to be found in the gym pumping some iron than I would be doing cardio for sure. No I hear ya. You know I I think on my end you know I I lift from time to time and my friends you know I'm I just don't get the same high from running and my good friends will just tell you hey you're just not lifting enough and I've heard that consistently.
But I guess for me like the as I've gotten old the fear of injury is what's gotten so high from lifting or trying to push too much weight comparatively to running for me. And that's I think just getting a sense of comfort doing some of that more often. But when I do lift, it's not for, you know, there's not a goal minded, you know, that's just I need to lift this much or this much.
It's more of like, OK, you ran yesterday and the day before you need to do something different, get in a gym. That's that's kind of how it's how I see it. Well, there's definitely like, like I've been training, I've been lifting weights for I guess 15 years now. And there's been times in that 15 year span where I did not
love the weight training. But once you do it long enough, consistently enough, like you really start to see the fruits of your labor and then you just fall in love with the process. And there's still days where like, I don't, I mean there's days where I don't really feel like going to the gym. But the overarching mentality is always positive when I think about the gym. And I feel like, you know, you have that that habit ingrained, that habit built into you, which
doesn't happen overnight. But once you do, and you spend more often than not working towards that positive outcome, then it just becomes habitual to the point where it doesn't seem like a negative anymore in your life. It's kind of like brushing your teeth, you know? Like you don't really think about it and just do it. That's a good analogy. I like that. Yeah. You know in the last few months I would tell you that I have, I I had to do some stuff.
My my epilepsy's come pretty. It's still pretty good and I'm, I'm having these harder or more intense seizures and I'm at a point where I've kind of exhausted, not maybe exhausted fully, but I I do enjoy the ketogenic diet. I mean it's it's become more of an identity for me at this point. As you know, even I've had thoughts of coming off and it's like I I enjoy this like and it's funny to hear that after so many years, right? Like I just like it. It's a big part of who I am.
You know, being on the ketogenic being, you know, adhering to the the macros or maybe you know, no, no, not checking the macros every every day. At this point, I think I have a good idea of what I'm eating and what everything is. But has that have you taken like a vacation or anything where you've kind of just gone off keto for the for a whole trip or any of that? Has that crossed your mind? No, I have not gone off keto since I've started keto.
I mean, there'll be times where I don't track everything. There'll be times where, well, of course, yeah, You know, like I'll have some keto treats, more so than I would normally have. But I have not had a stint where I've gotten off of a ketogenic diet since I've started it. Yeah.
Speaking of Keto treats I, I went to the all in and excuse me the keto the metabolic health summit which I believe you went to recently that I went to in 2019 and 2020 and 2019 we were one of my dad was still doing the ketogenic with me. He we were eating a lot of fat snacks. We were both buying fat snacks and we're at the stand there and it's the fat snack company and we're you know we're like, hey
nice to meet you guys. You know we're we're Michael Letty and they looked us and like you're Michael Letty. We're like, yeah, they're like, Oh my God, you're Michael Letty. And they start saying everyone's Michael Letty. I'm like I looked at that like what's going on here? They're like you are the biggest purchaser of fat snacks after Amazon. It's like, what? What's? Don't tell me that? And so, Oh my gosh, they gave us all this free stuff.
And I was looking at my dad, like, how much have you bought? Like, Oh my gosh, well, you know, we're both subscribing to it on Amazon. It was just in that moment, you know, that was one of the biggest snacks that we were eating. And in hindsight, way too much of it. But that was kind of the last little. Those were the some of the harder things to get away from is just having that snack after dinner or having a treat or something like the fat snack I'm
still having to this day. But not not often. I try, not too often. I mean, it's just a funny little thing that those those summits were really as you've written about. I mean, they're really, really good. Those are some of the best summits that I've been to for the ketogenic diet. Yeah, the conference seems great, man.
Like it's awesome to see people that are on the tip of the spear, you know, especially at that conference specifically, they've got, you know, leading researchers, leading doctors, leading medical professionals and providers and they're on the front line. So it's pretty awesome to see where the research going is going and just how it's impacting people's lives directly. I mean, that's that's what I get excited about.
That that one does too. And then you know some of those speakers are really it's it's really a great conference. But, yeah, I think what I was getting at is, you know, I've back to this epilepsy story. Here is, you know, I'm at a point where, you know, check diet's working. You know, to an extent I'm still having a lot of epilepsy. And I'm actually, I had to go in for a hospital stay, I think of of a week and a half last October to provoke seizures.
Let's see if my epilepsy has changed since 2012, if something has differed. And that was the first time in six years that I went off the ketogenic, because the whole point for me was to go in there. They're gonna sleep, deprive me. So I get to sleep from 4:00 AM to 7:00 AM once a week or every night. Excuse me. And the goal was to have two seizures. And so I'm sitting there and, you know, I I I'm trying stuff that I haven't tried in 6 1/2 years.
And it's crazy what your body can get addicted to so quickly, as I had some sugary things. And, I mean, because of that, my parents were stoked, especially my mom, who was just like, oh, my God, let me get you treats. This, this. I was like, I had a stack of food next to me and I couldn't move out of this bed because I literally was not 50 wires on my head, you know waiting to induce a seizure. And it's crazy how your body craves that that sugar when you
get give it back. And it took, you know having I got off I was in there for 9 days I think and but it but once you get back OK what's for last meal back the ketogenic. And then those first few days, you know my body was really like give me sugar, give me sugar. Like trying to fight that off was was hard, really difficult. It was one of the harder things that I had dealt with in a while and I was like, Oh my gosh.
That's interesting, though, man. Like, it's it's crazy that you were able to go that long without it and then you incorporated those foods as a way to induce the seizure intentionally. I mean that's very interesting case scenario that most people are not going to likely find themselves. Right, right. Exactly. They're not going to find themselves. I was like, I can't, Yeah, this is. I'm trying to do this, you know, this pad, these episodes. So I got to go off keto.
Like it was a perfect excuse, you might say. But it wasn't like it was a. Were to do that like the juice wasn't worth the squeeze, so to speak, like not from a medical standpoint, but from having those foods to now getting back
off of them. Like you're not, incentivize or inclined to go back to those foods based off of how you felt when you work in Shimon. Yeah, you know, I actually, I recently I went to Thailand and actually with my girlfriend, I'd never been to Asia and really with the ketogenic, never thought it was going to be possible. And I did it for a couple days there.
And then I kind of just realized like I know how to adhere off this and on it. And I I, you know, I decided to go off of it while I was there just to kind of more enjoy, you know, just some of the foods I'm travelled, you know, I've been on a plane for 17 hours. I think I can enjoy some food for a couple weeks. Surprisingly, my body felt pretty decent through and all the way through even, you know, I was exercising while I was there.
But back to it when I came back after two weeks was not as hard as the first time and went in the hospital was really like OK had the fun enjoyed let's go back to get a giant because like I said it it it's become an identity of part of who I am at this point. And then I found that really
kind of interesting. As you know, I've come off of it a couple times and you know, I, right before I went, I, I actually have planned in a couple months for a, a device to go in my head to help with my epilepsy called Neuropace. And it's this little computer that they put in your skull that hooks up to where they believe your seizures are coming from and it sends a pulse. Kind of interesting timing with having your neurofeedback Dr. Hill.
Last week. And you know, which is a great episode, by the way, I I've never even heard of neurofeedback. Me neither. And and you know, this device is going to go in my head and I'm set. There's a date, everything. And you know, this possibly could fix my seizures, possibly not, you know, we don't know. But it's just the thought that, you know, you know, even if I had the luxury of not going out of the Kitty Kat, I don't think I want to because it's just
balanced my health out so well. You know, it's a good kind of and it's a good discipline I've really learned to enjoy. And even though I may not get to have all these breads, all these, you know, different things that people so covet, I'm OK with that. I'm OK with that. You know, and it's this device is going to sit in my head and it's going to sit there, you know, for however long, but it's
going to be under my skull. And once a year, for the first year, it's just going to be learning my brain and learning where these seizures may occur, where they come from, what's the timing of it in this machine? This device will actually learn where the how it happens. And over time, we'll be able to send a signal right before a seizure comes on. And over time, my seizures will become less frequent and less severe. That's the thought. Very cool, granted. Very cool, very scary at the
same time, right? You know, I'm putting a computer in my head, you know, crazy. And it's just it's funny to think that, you know, I I don't even think a year ago I'd be OK with this. But you know, at this point I've found a discipline with this, the ketogenic or the Kia that it's that I can adhere to for just health, overall health and active, being active and fitness but not, you know, maybe it's not as helpful for my epilepsy as as it has been in the past.
You know, I think our bodies just adapt and my epilepsy is adapted and I was like, OK, we threw you you threw us a big curveball. You didn't have seizures for a while. I think we, you know, my brain's like, OK we can we can deal with this. Well that's kind of the next kind of chapter here is how does that work out. And you know I I think I'll adhere to the ketogenic, but maybe, you know maybe have a meal a week that I, I go out and try something different.
You know, that's off the ketogenic and it's it's a little weird to think of, but it's more just to kind of enjoy the moment, kind of going back to it, you know, just being aware of being present. You know, sometimes, you know, it's like enjoy some of the food that's that that is part of life and I'll take the risk, I'll take the risk. But that's well, the main thing is that's kind of a chapter, you know, objective with what your bias telling you be.
Subjective with what your bias telling you and then just act according to me. That's all any of us can do. And as long as you know, you know what you want, what you desire, you can kind of weigh out the risks and the rewards. And if you're being honest with yourself and doing what's right for your body long term overall, and the trajectory is positive, then you know, let that, let that be what it is. Yeah, you. Think you said it. Well, right. That's all any of us can do, ma'am. That's.
All we can do, but I'm excited. I'm excited about that as a viable outlet to see, you know, as you gain more information, more knowledge and then just do that to see if it truly makes a difference in tandem with the ketogenic diet like that. That's that's exciting stuff. Exactly right. So I think that's kind of. Yeah, exactly. How do I? Maybe that'll be kind of a counter measure for my epilep for with the ketogenic diet. Yeah, but you know, like I said. Keeping the identity.
Of the ketogenic diet eating because you know it feels good. It's and it's really thank you for kind of coming up and I don't even know. I'm trying to remember how I found, you know, the keto brick. And I think I was just looking at keto foods as a, you know, I look it up every year just to see if anything has come up online and I found your product and I was like 1000 calories in a brick. This is freaking awesome, you know? And the fats, the fats are actually good.
The the hardest thing is, you know in these new or a lot of these treats is the ingredients. Yeah, for sure finding good ingredients. Cause so many people. Just put keto on there and you're like, this is not keto. Like my mom will get me a lot of treats. I'm like, mom, you can't have all these fillers in here. This is just not the good stuff. I am certainly glad to hear that you like it. Man, we. We will keep making it, keep you stocked up for sure, brother.
Hey, that newest flavor you came out with, the brownie batter. Oh my gosh, that is good. That that is delicious. Yeah, that. That's become my favorite. That is one of my favorites. That. Is one of my favorites, so keep up what you do, man. It's it's really awesome and it's. Just it's noticed you know few 1000 miles over here in in California and really used utilized very much so and I just want to say thanks, thank you that truly makes my day man like
that. Is hearing feedback like that is why I keep doing what I do. So I I cannot be more appreciative to to everything you've said today for your attitude and just your zeal for life and desire to keep pushing forward man despite the hurdles, despite the outcomes like that. That's very admirable. Where do people go to find out more man? Like where do they go to find out more about your next next run. That's a good question. You know, I I'm.
Not a social media guy. I've never had Instagram. You know the the only thing I do have is Estrava. It's kind of a gotta, yeah. To exercise the play is kind of my thought, finally under Michael. Letty. Based in San Francisco, you can find me on Strava. It's just a cloudy picture and then me in the front. So that's that's, yeah, people can follow the running journey then for sure exactly. Follow the running journey. Follow the exercise. And hopefully, you know, do some themselves too.
And just really a pleasure to talk to you today. And John, thanks for taking the time. Yeah. No, my pleasure, man. I really appreciate you taking time. Jumping on here with me and just sharing the journey, man. So if there's everything I can do for you, Michael, just let me know, man. Absolutely down enough and. We'll see where everything goes. So thank you very much. You bet, man. Take care and have a good one, brother. Hey, thank you. You too.