Eating More Food Without Getting Fat (Female Nutrition Secrets)

Women specifically, what is a generally healthy amount of caloric intake on a day-to-day basis? For somebody that's that's not super tiny, not completely sedentary, I would say like 18 to 2400 calories a day for someone that lives a semi active to active lifestyle is normal. And I'm willing to guess that the person that I work with on a regular basis just about fell out of their chair when I said

that. Yeah, I think that's the goal because if you the more calories you have to work with, the more leverage you can pull, the more or runway you have to manipulate when you do transition into a fat loss phase. And I feel like very few people bring that to the forefront of knowledge of these people that are not competing. Like when you're competing, it's kind of common, commonly understood. But when you're not, I mean the same principles apply whether you step on stage or not.

And we are live. Joe, how are you, brother? Doing good and by the way, the studio looks amazing. I like it. Appreciate it, man. Yeah, I'm changing a few things up. I got my elk on that wall, my bookshelf on this while I'm trying to figure out which one I want behind me. So maybe next one will be the elk, who knows? I love it. I love it. Get the elk back there. Yeah, for sure. Well, you were on my podcast. What it's been, what about six months now? Something like that.

Right around that, yeah. Something like that, Yeah, we talked about reverse dieting quite a bit on that. When you've been working with females specifically for quite some time, talking about reverse dieting, I feel like I've been beating that drum for a while myself. I feel like it's starting to become more known, like the concept of reverse static is no longer this obscure, abstract, unknown thing it seems, which is good. We can talk about that for sure because there's always questions

around that. But but you and I were kind of talking about other things beyond just the reverse static component. You're trying to take more proactive approach with your clientele. So they don't even need that necessarily as the first plan of action. So talking about that man, what's that looking like? Yeah, absolutely. And and we definitely can touch on reverse side and again, because like you said, it's becoming more mainstream and it's not just for for bodybuilding competitors that

are like post show, right? It's for a lot of people that have really under died of themselves or over died of themselves for way too long. But what I found is, is working with my community of women, 4050 sixty and older, I've been solving a reactive problem, right. We've been reacting to the fact they've dieted for years and because of that, they've lost muscle mass. They've stressed their body out just immensely.

And we need to react and solve that problem before we can approach the weight loss problem. So yes, still love those ladies, still help them, still serve them, but it also hurts. Like I don't want to see that for everyone for the rest of life.

And so I've kind of shifted to being more proactive and now I want to help people, I don't know, 30 years old, maybe a little younger, maybe a little bit older and catch them before they're on their 10th, 15th, 20th diet and, and maybe on their first, third or fifth diet. Say, hey, if you keep going down this path, you're going to end up just like the ladies I helped in the past. And I don't want that. So let's do things the right way now and make Lifeway easier now and later.

Totally. Let me ask you this. So from a competitive standpoint, when you diet down for a show, you know, like using myself as an example, I might be dieting for 25 to 35 weeks on a longer prep. I'll lose 20, thirty, 40 lbs in that process, get diced down, regulate my metabolism and my hormones and I'll take 3-4, maybe even five months reverse dieting back up to a healthy maintenance when that's from a competitive step.

It's pretty typical when you are non competitor and you've been chronically under eating for the last 20 years. You honestly go through a pretty similar shift. You know, in taking three, 4-5 months, bringing their calories back up, bringing their training protocol back up, improving hormonal health and metabolic function. When you're talking about someone that who's not broken or

not broken is a bad word. I don't remember like using the word broken, but like when you talk about someone that's not really gone down that path to begin with, they don't have this chronic under eating phenomenon taking place. How do you approach that? Like do you kind of proactively say, OK, we got to take calories down, What goes down? Let's come back up? Like how does that frame things differently? Yeah, absolutely.

Number one, I'm really glad you didn't ask me a question about competing because I was going to be so lost. That is not my gym. I think that's you. But yeah, when we when we have somebody come to us and before anything, I guess we should start with this before anything. If somebody starts working with us, we take at least the first seven days, sometimes 14 and we don't change anything.

We just observe, right. Because in order to help somebody, we need to 1st understand what is their life look like now, which gives us a pretty good guess of what has their life look like for an extended period of time. And so if we find that somebody is under eating but not losing weight, and that's true, right? Some people think they're under eating and then they're a weekend warrior and go crazy,

that's a different conversation. But if they're under eating and not losing weight, then we need to explain to them. Look, on paper, scientifically, you're doing everything right to lose weight, but your body is stressed to the Max. Hormones are probably far out of whack. And I can tell you this without doing blood work and you've probably lost a lot of muscle, which means you've lost a lot of metabolism, right? A lot of the ability to eat a normal amount of food and not gain weight.

And so before anything, before we get to the weight loss that you're here for, we need to fix that issue, right? We need to remove the stress from your body, show your body it's OK to eat more food and, and burn those calories rather than hang on to them. And in the process get you in the gym, get you lifting some weights and get that muscle back on your body so that you can eat normal amounts of food and and not gain weight and hopefully even lose it while eating 17

eighteen 1900 calories a day. Yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree man. I feel like the the concept of

reverse standing is applicable whether you step on stage and compete or not. You mentioned, I mean, you mentioned getting like baselines established first. I feel like that's key. A lot of people will look at somebody's stats, their age, their sex, and OK, you should be consuming X amount of calories and you know, set it and forget it and you'll see the results you want. But that's just so far from the truth.

Like I always figure out what they've been eating, what their last six months of dieting history look like, you know, because all of that's going to shift the direction you take going forward. When they are eating a healthy amount of food. Like when when they're going through this initial consult with you, tracking their initial intake and you're kind of analyzing what their true consumption is, What stands out to you as like a healthy amount

of food? Everyone's obviously going to be a little bit different based off of their stats and their age. But generally speaking, for women specifically, what is a generally healthy amount of caloric intake on a day-to-day basis? Yeah, I love it. You nailed it. Everyone's going to be different, but to give a range, I would say for somebody that's

that's not super tiny, right? So like 5 foot three or less and not completely sedentary, I would say like 18 to 2400 calories a day for someone that lives a, a semi active to active lifestyle is normal. And I'm willing to guess that the person that I work with on a regular basis just about fell out of their chair when I said that. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I've got a few females right now that are consuming like 3300 calories and maintaining a healthy weight. Generally speaking.

I always tell my my females, it's like, look, I want you to be able to maintain a healthy weight north of 2000 calories. I've got a few that are like tiny five, 210 lbs. You know, maybe they can justify less than 2000, but out of maintenance. I mean, generally speaking, north of 2000 is where I like to see them. And so many of them are consuming far, far, far less than that. And a lot of them just don't realize how much they are consuming.

So like when you're tracking this and you're having them tracking for the first week or two by a percentage, how many of them are truly consuming what they think they're consuming or they just totally off the deep end?

Yeah. So, so it's actually rare that they're off the deep end, right, Because because we've been doing what we do for so long, we attract that type of person where it's like, look, they've dieted a lot and they do know how to track and they do have a good feel for how much they're eating. And they're pretty accurate, you know, maybe they're 200, three, 100 calories off, but generally

they're at 1500 or less. And, and it's not uncommon for us to see somebody eating 800 to 1200 calories a day. But man, I love what you just said about you have a couple ladies that you're working with. They're at like 3300 calories. That's the game to play. Like, yes, we can, we can input body metrics into a TD EE calculator all day long. But at the end of the day, that's just a rough guess from an algorithm, from an equation that somebody made years ago.

Our name of the game, and it sounds like you too, is find out how much we can push the limits right? Can you eat 2500 calories a day and not gain weight or lose it? Perfect. Can you have 262728? Like what's the tipping point to where you can Max out your food

consumption and not gain weight? Yeah, I think that's the goal because if you, the more calories you have to work with, the more leverage you can pull, the more runway you have to manipulate when you do transition to a fat loss phase. And I feel like very few people bring that to the forefront of knowledge of these people that are not competing. Like when you're competing, it's kind of common, commonly

understood. But when you're not, I mean, the same principles apply whether you step on stage or not because we're all the same species. So all of that applies when it comes to mindset. Let's talk about that because I feel like you and I both have an interest in mindset specifically except shapes so much of how we interact with our clients. But when you're talking with someone that's been, you know, 50-60 years old, they've been chronically under eating for the

last 20-30 forty years. How does that shift in mindset compared with someone that's 20 or 30 and they're just now getting into this and they're just coming out of like, you know, they're just now starting to take interest in their health because they probably got away with a lot more than they should when they're, you know, adolescent age and they're eating everything and, you know, college and whatnot.

So how does the conversation differ between those that have been chronically doing this for the last 30 years versus those that are just trying to get set up on the right foot going forward? Yeah, absolutely.

And you nailed it. So number one, for the ladies that are fifty 60-70 around that and they've been dieting for, like you said, three decades, whatever it may be, like they're experienced, they they know what they've done for a long time, but it's almost easier at that point because they also know what they've done hasn't worked. Like they're still here looking

for a result. And so it's a really easy conversation or perspective shift when when you say, look, you're here for help, right answer's always yes. OK, awesome. And so you've done all these things for the past X amount of years and you're still here, right? Yes. OK. And So what are the similarities across what you've done in the past? Well, you've ate less, way less, and you've moved way more. And that didn't get you the result you want, correct?

Correct. Well, if you want a different outcome, you're going to need to do something different, right? And so what's different from eating less and moving more, eating a little bit more and moving a little bit less? And so sometimes that's the click. And, and if not, all we do is, is hold up a few transformation pictures that brought them in like, all right, well, you want it, you want to have this body, right? Yes, great. What this person did is exactly

what we're going to do for you. So you just got to trust the process a little bit. How do you navigate the waters

of like menopause and hormonal shifts with that demographic because they've got that variable turned to the equation as well? Yeah, so that's not really my jam. We don't talk too much about hormones. We don't talk too much about menopause in depth. But what I can say is that a lot of a lot of women will come to me, say, hey, I am perimenopausal, postmenopausal, whatever it may be, and my hormones are to blame for my lack of weight loss.

And I always level with them. I say, OK, you know what? You might be right. But before we get into these advanced things, why don't we look at the foundational things that we know produce results? Let me see your food logs for the past 30 days. Let me see your exercise, how you tracked it, your progressive overload for the past 30 days. Let me see your sleep. Let me see your steps.

And if they can't produce that for the last 30 days, if they're not doing the fundamental things that you and I both know create results, then they don't have the right to point the finger at hormones yet. Yeah, no, I think that's very fair analysis, man. Like people, hormones are like the, the where people immediately go because they can, especially all the technologies nowadays, they can immediately

shift those numbers. But if the underlying foundational habits and routines aren't in place, then it's all for not to begin with. So and you look at, you know, a menopausal woman, they're worried about, you know, testosterone taking is going to have a negative effect on bone mineral density, loss of lean tissue down regulated metabolic

rate as a result of that. It's like all of that for sure can be impacted by hormonal manipulation, but all of that can equally be impacted by eating more food and training with intensity in a strategic manner that's allowing yourself to recover and, you know, build more muscles. So like looking at one without the other, I feel like it's just a a non worthwhile use of one's efforts and resources.

I. Mean what happens when, when you no longer have the means to get those hormones or to use those hormones or even this, like I've, I've had so many people on my show, right, because I just admittedly said I'm not the hormone guy. So I try to learn from other people. I've had so many people say, yes, hormones can help you, but so many times you have to have this just right, this perfect balance of your testosterone, your progesterone, your estrogen.

If not, look, you're going to feel equally as shitty, just in a different way, right? And so again, back to the basics. Why don't we just fall in love with a version of nutrition exercise that works for you and serves you at the same time? Totally agree.

Do you have somebody reverse that longer based off of if they've been doing this 20-30 years versus someone that's doing it for the first time? Like how much longer do you increase that window reversed adding time? Absolutely. I mean, not uncommon for us as we'll have women come to us that they've been on Weight Watchers since they were thirteen or seven or, or whatever it is because their mom or their gym teacher or their, their sports coach said, hey, you're a little bit too big.

I I want the best for you. Weight Watchers is going to be great. And yeah, they had the best of intentions, but they didn't know any better. And so there, that young girl has learned that that's nutrition, counting points, restricting yourself. And now they come to me and they're 40. So they've been on this for for 20 to 30 years. And yeah, I mean, it's going to take longer to reverse the damage that diets have done than for somebody that dieted for six

months, right. And so there's no set time frame. What we like to do is look at biomarkers. OK, so how are you feeling? How are you sleeping? How's your sex drive, has your focus, has your mood? And based on that generally gives us a pretty good understanding of like, OK, the body is now back in a closer to homeostatic place or you know what, it still needs a little bit of love. We need to reverse diet for longer.

Yeah, totally agree man. For me, like as a competitor kind of balancing the cutting and building phases in the most optimal manner I would think possible. I always trying to do like at least three times longer in a building phase and a cutting phase because it obviously takes longer to build muscle especially naturally than it does to lose body fat. So if I'm trying to optimize for both, I'll try and at least triple the amount of time I'm going to build it than I am in a cut.

But you tell that to someone that's been chronically under eating for 20 years, they're not going to take the next 60 years to build. So you got to kind of play it accordingly in that regard. But it's super important, man. Like people, I've always told people you have to have a minimum, minimum of six months in a build eating at a higher caloric intake. Cause a lot happens psychologically when you eat more food as well. And that's, that's challenging thing, man.

Like for competitors, the reverse diet is honestly harder than the cut. Because when you've got a cut, you got a very specific time frame, you've got a show date on the calendar or you got a photo shoot or a wedding or a vacation or something you're trying to look good for. And then it's like that, that date is, you know, set in stone. Like I'm going to optimize for that.

But once that's removed and you're on the other side of it, it's like what's holding someone to adhere to eating more food, not being tempted to drop back into a deficit and lean out more, embracing a little bit of body fat that comes with eating at a higher caloric intake. Like that is the murkier side of the equation that a lot of people struggle with. I struggle with it. I've struggled with it. I think every competitor does to some extent.

Like when you compete, you open the doors to body dysmorphia in some form or fashion, but you also have the tools to change it. And I feel like that is more powerful and empowering than the ignorance that comes with not knowing the path to take. Man, I am in the thick of that

right now. And so I'm not a competitor. I don't, I don't have any, any aspirations of competing, but I do like to evolve constantly right mentally and physically. And so I'll go through the, the building cutting phases. Right now I'm in a big build. The goal for me long term is above 200 lbs, under 10% body fat. And so right now, spending more time in a build, man, I'm soft compared to what I usually AM. And it gets in my head almost daily. It's like, well, my ABS are

gone. Maybe I can see one if the lighting's fray and then the stars are aligned, but that messes with you. Whereas when you're cutting like, great, let's see some ABS, let's get some veins, right? And that feels so much better. So totally understand that. What is your body fat now? Do you know? I have no idea. Probably around like 1415%. Do you feel like everything else has improved? Like your strength markers, your recovery, libido, just stress.

All that's improved with the higher body fat. Everything except for stress, just because I keep piling more on personally. But yeah, so obviously tracking workouts, that's way higher than if I was in a cut or in the past. Energy's up, libido's up, sleep is better. Everything's better than when I'm going to cut except for physique. And so that's that fine line we sometimes have to walk.

Is, is what's better long term. And I think always a slightly higher body fat percentage is better than being shredded, right. And I'm not saying like hey, it's OK to live it 25 or 35% body fat, but it's also not OK to live it 6 in my opinion. Totally agree. What's your caloric intake now? Do you know? It's like 3400 calories a day. And you feel pretty satiated. Fairly fairly sedentary. Yeah, you feel pretty satiated at that intake. Not kind of gnawing hunger at

all times. No, so that's a problem for me. Like I think my, my intake should be higher, but with as much as with what I have going on right now, it's hard for me to get that all in. And so this is where I can kind of level with my clients because while we're playing two different games, really we're playing the same one, right?

We're trying to hit these calorie goals, which for these women that have had 1200 calories their whole life, when we get up to 2400, maybe it is the right amount, but it's damn hard for them to do it. And so I'm like, hey, I got to love with you. I'm the same way. But I push and I do my best, and that's what I expect from you too. Yeah, it's funny man.

Like I'm I'm in a build right now and I'm probably around between 1718% body fat if I had to guess. But I've got like visible ABS at that body fat because I got so much muscle as a bodybuilding, you know, being my sport. So it's like easy to justify it because I've I still look relatively good compared to the masses. But like I know what I'm capable of. So it's hard on me because my standards are different. But man, I'm eating like 3200 calories right now and I'm just

ravenous. Like I could easily eat 6000 calories a day and be satiated, but like I know if I eat 6000 carrots a day, day in day out, like I would just get unnecessarily fat. So like kind of toeing the line between what's realistic, reasonable, and optimal is always a challenge for me. So what's your thought there? Because it is this weird balancing act because a lot of times for our clients, I'll think, hey, if your body's asking for more food, 9 times out of 10, we're going to give

it more, right? But I think there is this this difference between them and somebody like you. Like, do you think it would be beneficial to listen to your body to an extent and give it more fuel? Or do you think you're at your happy place? I know you're like 1718%. Have you seen small amounts of gradual increase in body fat recently?

Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of like, you know, I did two months of intuitive eating November and December of this past year and I got like 200 lbs and 200 lbs at my frame of five, seven and a half 5/8. Just too much body fat. Like I was just softer that I wanted to be. So now I'm holding around one 89190 and I feel pretty good, but I'm still hungry because I'm eating, you know, closer to 3000 calories as opposed to, you

know, 4 or 5000 calories. And I could definitely eat more and I would be happier from a satiety standpoint for sure. But there's no point in me going beyond 20% body fat from a performance standpoint. Like there's no going to, there's not going to be any increase in strength output or total volume lifted. So like it's hard to justify there when I'm looking at the numbers.

What I need to do is lean out a little bit, kind of maintain around 1415% body fat, and then just work my calories back up to maintaining that composition at 3000 to 3500. That's what I need to do, because then I wouldn't have to lose as much weight going into a competition either. But it's hard for me to build, to justify going into a legitimate cut because I don't have a show date that I'm doing this year. So for me, doing like a mini cut is just a waste of time, so to speak.

But I know that I would feel better and be more confident how I looked, which probably reduce overall stress. There's like lots of moving pieces, as you know. But but yeah, man, it's it's very important to have, you

know, those times in a bill, those times in a cut and just to allow yourself to eat till satiety if it's all coming from good quality food as well. I mean, like, people can eat a lot of cramp. I mean, I can totally justify another 2000 calories of, you know, dip into the jar of peanut butter, but I know it's probably not going to be the best source of those calories, you know? Probably not man.

What what we're saying right now is, is ultimately close to a level that I want all of our clients to get right. Maybe maybe we're not talking about it as in depth, but I want people thinking in the ways we're thinking right. You understand that you going from 17 to 18% down to 14 or 15 has tons of benefits, but it also has its cons, right? So I think what we're getting at here is foresight.

Like if somebody has the foresight to sit down and reflect on what's more important, what's going to do me better in the long haul, I think that's what's at least the piece of what's going to help somebody stay successful long term. Yeah, and The thing is too, like I had a client in town this past weekend and he was here with me and his body fats a little bit higher, but he had just done like a crazy cut, got shredded. And now he's reversed adding up in a building phase.

And he's been in building phase for a while now. And like what I'm trying to tell people, I'm sure you do the same, but like the more times you cycle through the building and cutting phases in a healthy, sustainable manner, the better your, you know, build phase at the peak of your build looks and the better your cut phase at the, you know, depth of your cut looks like that shifts drastically the more times you cycle through this in a healthy manner.

So like, while I am unhappy with how I look now at 1780% body fat in 190 lbs, it is significantly better than how I looked the first time I went into a build and bulked up to 230 lbs. It was just sloppy. So like your perspective shifts, but so does your physiological markers. And as long as you have that within a, you know, tighter realm, your body is able to maintain that healthier window much more effortlessly each time you cycle through.

Absolutely. And I think repetition, just going through those cycles back and forth makes you better at each one, right? And so every time maybe it gets one or two percent easier. And again, if it's easier lowering stress levels, that's going to play massively into the results you get on each end I would assume. 100% what?

What's your take on intuitive eating? Because a lot of people, especially if they're not competing, they don't want to be a slave of tracking macros. They want to be able to eat healthy foods and just like let their body do its thing and be happy with how they're looking, letting it do its thing. So where do you where do you

kind of draw the line there? That's where I want everybody to get and I'd, I'd love to hear your opinion on this, but it's where I want everyone to get because not everyone's like you and me, man. People have lives that have different passions outside of this. And I don't think this whole conversation should be so time consuming for the rest of life. Yes, if you work with me one-on-one or my coaches, you're going to track your food, but

not forever. I want somebody to understand the feedback their body gives them. I want somebody to understand what foods contain what macros and what calories. And I want somebody to understand eyeballing portion sizes accurately. After that, I just want them to build a lifestyle they enjoy that serves them. And I think with that combination of things, people should be able to intuitively eat and maintain a slightly fluctuating body that they're

happy with. Yeah, totally agree man, Totally agree. How long have you been coaching

now in? Seven years? Six or seven years. Seven years. What pisses you off the most about coaching in that time? Oh man, I mean, my business is now called Diet Detox, so that should speak enough, right? I, I just want to detox everybody from the damage that diets do. And it's not like I have a vendetta for any diet specifically, right? I don't hate carnivore, I don't

hate paleo, I don't hate keto. What I hate is the restrictive bullshit that people get taught and eventually believe that they need to live on for the rest of their life, right? The the whole conversation around good and bad foods, the fact that people think they need to live like a robot and if they don't, if they have something they enjoy, then they lost.

Like that's what I hate. Yeah, as far as good and bad foods go, I mean, you I'm sure would agree that a, you know, a rib eye steak with a garnish of Brussels sprouts cooked in a quality olive oil is more nutritionally sound than that of equal calories coming from crumble cookie. But how do you? I've never had a crumble cookie by the way, with those things get some pretty pretty crazy macros, but how do you frame one as not being good or bad given

that? I think there's different definitions of good and bad, right? If we're talking about healthy and unhealthy, you're right all day long. If we're talking about tasting good and tasting bad, if somebody hates Brussels sprouts and loves crumble cookies, well, there's your answer there.

That's a very extreme example, but at the same time, if somebody can have one cookie and that stops them not talking about like a 5000 calorie crumble cookie, I'm talking about like a Chips Ahoy and that stops them from binging on the rest of the sleeve. Man. I think that cookie was good. It served a good purpose. And so that's why I kind of get rid of the definition of good and bad because it can so drastically change.

Yeah, I think a lot of people, I think a lot of people just do better in my, in my sphere, in my demographic. They're kind of more of like extremists in nature. Like I'm working with predominantly ketogenic carnivore clientele. So they don't have a great relationship with carbohydrates and hyper palatable processed foods. So like they're not one to

moderate things. Well, a lot of them go towards the ketogenic carnivore diet realm because having those, you know, guardrails up, so to speak, is easier for them, more sustainable for them than trying to moderate a mix of different foods in which they're more prone to go off the deep end and eat that whole sleeve. I don't, I mean, I haven't had carbs in 10-11 years now, but I feel like I would be able to avoid eating a whole sleeve of Oreos.

But I don't feel like it. I don't crave it anymore, I think because I've just been doing this for so long. But I don't feel like I'm missing out by not having it. But I feel like so much of dieting culture and how you got to frame consumption for each individual is totally dependent on what they view as shameful eating. Because I feel like shame is literally the catalyst for

everything. And when it comes to food, that's the the catalyst for them binging, purging for finding peace with something or finding total unrest with something. So like it all stems to what they feel shame around. And some people are going to feel shame towards those foods and some people aren't. And you got to just adjust the conversation accordingly. Shame, guilt, yeah, you name it. I think the reason that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong or

add your two cents. I think the reason you're so successful on this, right and you don't have this need for carbs or this desire is because you've probably created a lifestyle and, and this nutritional menu inside your brain that you love. And so it's like, well, I already love the shit I eat. I don't need other stuff. And this serves me. So then I also have this

positive reward that way. I think, I think part of the reason carbs can get so tricky mentally is because if you eat a carb, if you have a higher amount of carbs than you usually have, you wake up in the morning and you're heavier, right? They're like a sponge. You're going to retain water. And I think that massive weight fluctuation is so hard for so many people that, like you said, for some people, it's easier to speak. You know what, that's it.

No more carbs. I'm going to create a life I love without them. Protein and fats are good to go and I love that. Would you agree or do you have a different take on that? No, I totally agree. I feel like, you know, I mean, if I have something that's just crazy salty, I'm going to see a pretty significant increase in fluid retention the next day. And that's going to have a, you know, similar reflection on the scale. But like for me, I, I enjoy everything I eat.

Like, I don't feel like I'm missing out by not eating it. And I'll still have some of those foods. Like my wife makes a delicious keto cheesecake. She makes these keto cookies. And I can totally overdo it on those foods, but she doesn't make them often. It's less convenient. Like we're making them by hand. So like when I do eat them, I don't really feel guilty for it because it's not very frequent and because it's all using

quality ingredients. But like, I feel like so much of our society is just in a convenience mindset around food and it's not anything out of the norm for them to stop at a fast food joint or pick up something in the prepackaged food out at a grocery store. And most of those foods are not really healthy by default. So they're just inundated with those options that they then feel guilt and shame around. Or maybe they just truly are ignorant.

It's it's crazy. Except like people, they know that fast food isn't healthy, but they still eat it. Like I've come to a place in life where everything that I consume I would consider to be very healthy. If I eat too much of it, I'm still going to get fan. And if I eat too little of it, I may be hungry, but everything I eat is what I would consider quality. So I don't have that sense of shame around the foods I eat. But I'm, again, I've been doing this for, you know, a decade or

more. So like, it's taken me a long time to get to that place where I don't feel neglect or sacrifice or banned from not eating those foods that most people put on a pedestal. I'm with you. I love that man. I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's ignorance for people going to fast food, because you're right. I don't think there's anyone on the planet that that thinks fast food is healthy. I think we've uncovered that stone by now. I almost wonder if it's a, is it a convenience thing?

And just like not knowing other ways to be as convenient and healthy at the same time. Is it a well, I think clean eating is more expensive thing. Like there's so many different directions from that, but I wish we knew. Yeah, it's, it's interesting, man. Like I don't this kind of stems back from the is it good or bad, you know, labeling. I mean, I could eat a fast food meal and I, I don't think that it's going to automatically cause me to gain 20 lbs and give me a heart attack tomorrow.

But at the same time, I think the fact that I associate that with legitimate poison has been a positive reference point for me, because if I view it as poison, then I'm not inclined to want it. And I feel like maybe it's ignorance for some people to, maybe they don't realize how bad it is. And in moderation, it's not that bad. Like if 90% of everything you're eating is quality food and you have a fast food meal, it's not like they will by any means. I don't want to be this.

Like there's some people in the keto carnivore space that are very dogmatic about that. I don't want to be that. But at the same time, I think it's a net positive for me that I associate those foods with legitimate poison because then it's easier for me to turn away from them. I love it, Yeah. I mean, I would, I would argue that one time or or very infrequent times of just about anything isn't going to kill you. Like you're fine, especially if the rest of your life is healthy. I'm not.

As far as you in terms of like the poison thing, yes, I know it's unhealthy and it's definitely making me slightly worse every time I have it, but I just don't like it. It's just not appealing, right? And I'm someone that likes ice cream, I like carbs, I like crappy foods. But I go buy a Taco Bell, AKFC, you name it. My body just doesn't want it. And I think that that happens naturally over time after leading a healthier lifestyle.

Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to perspective, because once you recognize how much better you feel when you don't have it, you're more in tune to how your body feels when you do, which kind of puts that repulsive measure back into your mind when you have it available to you. I feel like a lot of people just simply, maybe they're not ignorant, but maybe they just simply don't know what feeling good feels like. So they've got, they just lack that perspective in its totality.

Well, here's the problem with that. I think special maybe just for the people that I serve, right? They've, they've dieted for so long that their baseline is just, they think is feeling good, but they, they haven't felt good in so long that they forget what that is. And so they're just so used to whatever their baseline is. Like how you doing today? I'm good.

Like, are you actually, or did you just forget how freaking amazing you can feel when you move your body and sleep 8 hours and do something you enjoy to make you mentally happy and eat foods that are good for you, right. And, and I think that so many times when somebody starts to work with us after the first week or two weeks, not in the observation period, but actually applying some simple practices, like, holy shit, I think a new person, I didn't feel good

before. And it's just a baseline thing. Yeah. And when they start to see that difference, I mean they get excited about it and then excitement kind of gives them that staying power to stick with it to see what what the next level is, you know. Yeah, I'm totally different here, man, since I don't know

when I I got subscribed to newsletter at some point and then not too distant past, but I've been getting all these emails from you, which they're all great by the way. But let's talk about some businessman. So you've been coaching for as long as you have. How do you structure things? Like I want to peel the curtain back on that. I mean, there's so many coaches out there. So separating yourself from the masses and being able to provide value in your own unique way is

no easy task. So how do you structure things? What's get get you excited from a business standpoint? Where's the the holes in the market? What's your niche just talking about that? Yeah, man, that's hard because for the longest time, and this goes back to probably our first conversation if anybody listen to that, but I got bullied in high school a ton and and that carried over into self worth issues.

And for the longest time as a as a younger gentleman that was coaching women in midlife, I got a lot of shit for that. And so again, going into self worth issues, I was putting on this facade or this mask being somebody else in order for people to like me so that I can help them. And in the past, probably 6 to 9 months, I've removed it because my business is healthy enough. I, I like myself enough. I know that I'm a good person and I have good intentions.

And so recently I just screw it. You know what, like that's, that's kind of what made this proactive shift is I can do whatever I want and I know I have good intentions that I know I can help. I can write how I want, speak how I want, be who I want. And man, I'm not really after a niche, I'm after somebody that resonates with who I am. Because at the end of the day, I'm paying my bills, I'm paying my coaches bills, I'm creating results, and that's all I ever

wanted. So at this point, if somebody doesn't like me, that's fine, right? There's somebody like Robert or there's a million other freaking coaches in this world that you might like. I'm not for everyone, and that's fine #2 I have to know I can help. And so I'll never do a sales call, right? I do what's called an application call, and the application is as much for the

client as it is for me, right? They're applying to work with me and see if they like me, and I'm applying to them to see if I like that, right? And if that works and if I can help somebody, that's kind of where I'll go. But ultimately, man, like I don't have a niche anymore. Yeah, if I can help and I like you, then I'd love to.

Well, knowing your intentions definitely does a lot to remove yourself from this imposter syndrome that you were talking about in the beginning. Because like, like we get, I mean, I've got multiple businesses. I got the keto brick and I got an e-mail that I got to respond to right now about someone just totally throwing shade at me. And it's like, because of their wording of the e-mail, it's very obvious that they do not know anything about me and they don't

know anything about the brand. They don't know anything about anything. They just literally are on the line throwing hate. And it's like when you know your intentions and if you know that you've done everything you've done to the best of your ability with pure intentions and utmost integrity and honesty, like those words don't even really hurt anymore. Like when I first started, I didn't have a clue what I was doing and people would throw

shade. It's like maybe I'm doing something wrong, you know, maybe they're right. Maybe I should second guess how I'm going about things. But once you get some momentum built and you know, you're helping people and you're getting those positive comments all the day, when you get those negative ones that are just clearly a result of people that are unhappy in life, they they

can't really affect you. I mean, you kind of kind of like, you know, just move past them and brush them aside because they're, there's a difference between taking criticism and growing and learning from it. That's one thing. That's a good thing, You know, that they got to be humble in that regard. But like, there are people out there that just want to be negative, and for those people you're just wasting your time because they're going to be unhappy no matter what you do.

Man, I'm open to criticism. I love it. But the first time that what you just said kind of resonated with me was right between Thanksgiving and Christmas. For the past two years I've I've run these challenges right between that holiday gap where the goal isn't weight loss, it's simply weight maintenance. Because my belief is that if you can maintain at a time you usually gain, that's still

massive success. And every single dollar that I generate from those challenges, I then take from the business account, drive to Walmart and spend every single dollar on kids toys for our local foster community. And, and this year we got like $3500. I, I took my step dad's trailer, filled it up with gifts and brought it to the drop off place and that was it. You know what? I feel super good about this.

At the end of the challenge, someone that was successful in maintaining, not gaining was just like, Joe's a piece of shit. He did this all for fame. Like all these things like, OK, well I know what I did this for. It was just to help you and help our community. And so if that's not for you, good luck with your goals, but I'm not going to help you with them anymore. And that was it. Yeah, 100%, man, I love that idea of the challenge too. We just started a challenge as

well. We did 1A while back, but I love the idea of having a challenge in which the goal was to maintain weight through the holiday season. Man, that's super brilliant. It's a harder sell, that's for sure, because it's not sexy, but the ones that get it and the ones that see that are also the ones that again, resonate with me and see the bigger picture. And so those are the ones I want to work with. So it's kind of a double pay off. Like it weeds them out and it it

helps the ones that see the bigger picture. 100% man. So you get your so you get your business structured as like a one-on-one coaching. You do group coaching and the challenges or how do you like, what are your different offerings I guess? Yeah. So we have, we have two coaches that work under me, one-on-one coaching from both of them. One's amazing at behavior change and workout programming, also amazing at nutrition. The other is a registered dietitian.

And so we've got a lot of bases covered there. Each of them can handle a certain amount of clients. After that, we cap it and we close registration because if not, the current clients we have are going to suffer like the bandwidth drops and so do the results. So we cap them. I do run challenges periodically, four weeks long, There's no calorie counting, no

food locking. I build the food and fitness programs and so that way I take out all the guesswork of creating a result and then they have more bandwidth to focus on what I think really matters for long term results, which is mindset and behavior change and identity change. So we focus a lot on that and then pass that. Man, I just want to help. I have a couple other businesses I have my hands in and so I'm not trying to make $1,000,000 off this. I'm just trying to change some

lives. I love it man.

What are the businesses you get cooking? Are you at liberty to tell? Yeah. So I, I bought a restaurant in our town. It's probably one of the more popular ones. So myself and and a couple others on that. I am buying into a nutrition certification business as we speak, probably happen at the end of this month. Let's see, I work inside of private equity and I'm currently scaling a cosmetics business. Nice man. What kind of what kind of restaurants? Where are you located again in Vermont?

Vermont. What kind of What kind of food is it? So it's it's a Marina. It's right on the Connecticut River in southern Vermont, if anybody knows the area. And obviously with it being a Marina, there's a little bit of focus on seafood and and fish, but other than that, it's really just an American restaurant. Burgers, steaks, chicken tenders, you name it. But it's fun. Like it's, it's an established

business. It's been in the community for like 30, more than 30 years at this point, actually closer to 40. And we just took it and we, we redid everything like how it looks, how it feels, the staff, the menu. And it's been, it's been fun because I had 0 restaurant experience before and now I'm learning a whole lot about it. And when did you take over? 2 1/2 months ago. That's crazy, man. Yeah, the food industry is no joke. That's quite the undertake. But it's it's awesome stuff,

man. That's exciting. Thanks. Yeah, it's been fun. And no, it's it's not easy. There's a lot of moving pieces. Lots of moving pieces. Health department things, got to be food grade certified, all that stuff, man. Lots of moving pieces. But that's I'm actually going to be up in the Northeast before too long for a conference. Man, I have to swing by there and get me some fish because I love fish. You should tell me when.

I will, I will. And then you've also got the coaching certification program you're looking at dabbling into when you look at coaching certification program. So you're a coach. I'm a coach, I've got a certification, but I don't even promote the fact that I've got a certification because it's probably lapsed and you know, out of date expire anyways, because I feel like most people put more stock in the results you're able to generate. But like there seems to be this increasing number of

certification programs. Some are probably incredibly, you know, viable and solid and some are probably just want to throw their sticker or brand and get like a, you know, pool of coaches underneath them and get Commission off of that. How do you navigate what is a solid program versus not like what, what kind of core pillars or tenants does that need to provide? I mean it needs to be science back right there. It needs to be very science backed in and have proof behind all the statements.

But this is actually a business that's again been in place for quite a while. It is super reputable. I'm not going to say the name of it right now. Maybe if we do this again, I'll tell you what it is. And I'm not going to be full owner. I'm just I'm just buying a small percentage of it and then operating inside of it. But, and it's hard to say, like I think that the reason so many people want certifications as a new coach is because they have that imposter syndrome, right?

Because they haven't created the result. They want something else. And so for people like you and me that we get it, we get nutrition, we get exercise, we get mindset, we get all this, we also get how to create a result. It's less desirable to continue getting more. But I think it is a great place to start for somebody to have that confidence in themself, because next to nobody else will have confidence before that. Yeah, totally agree.

Remind me how old you are, Joe? 31. 31 What's the what's the grand scheme, plan, pitcher. Where do you see yourself going for, especially as an opera? You have kids. I can't remember. Nope, no kids, two dogs and a wife. Two dogs and a wife. Any kids in the future? So we're at the point right now where it's like not right now where we're very busy with personal life and and growth and evolution.

In five years we will re evaluate, but right now we can't say because life's changing so fast. We don't know what it will look like then. So we'll ask herself that question at that point. Nice nice. Well as it sits currently with two dogs and wife and no kids, what do you want to go business? Like what? What makes you? I'm asking these questions selfishly because I've been doing a lot of self reflection myself. But like what? What is the drive to grow and scale? Like what?

What do you define as enough in life? Or is there such a thing? Like what's the difference between contentment and satisfaction? Like, how do you wrestle with those phrases in your own mind? Man, you're asking the wrong person. I would say I have a pretty unhealthy relationship with it. Right? Anytime I reach a goal, there's next to no celebration. It's like, OK, we're here, let's pick up the post and move it further. And then we walk towards that goal post and once we hit it, we

move it again. And it it's definitely time for me to do what you're doing, which is sit down, be with myself, reflect and and find the answers to those questions. Because if I don't, this is going to be an infinite game. And while that can be fun, it is nice when I reflect and look back. I don't think it's healthy, right? Like, yes, I spend a lot of time during my week having fun. I've recently fallen in love with jiu jitsu and, and even more recently I just did flying

trapeze and that was super fun. So lots of cool stuff to keep me happy. But other than that, man, like if I have downtime, it's like, let's just work, Let's just grow. Let's just see what we can create. And I mean, I guess that the stem or the foundation of it was to help my family, right? There are people inside of my immediate family that don't have the most stable circumstances, and there's nobody there for them if things go to shit. And I don't want to allow that.

And so the first fuel for me was to make it so that if things went to shit, there was somebody there for him, and that was me. And so I think we're good on that front right now, but we just keep pushing in case more floors fall out.

It's funny man, because I don't know the answers to these same questions either. I mean, I in the same way in that I don't ever celebrate the winds. Like when I published my book, which took me forever, I didn't do anything except move to the next project. When I launched my course, the same thing. When I launched the bricks, the same thing. When I did my competition and got my pro card, same thing. Like I don't ever like, enjoy and revel in the success of the

fruits of my labor. I just move on to the next thing. And I love starting new businesses. I love just growing and evolving, having the kid. We got another kid on the way, but having kids was like the first tangible thing in my life because like my wife, you know, she's super supportive. Like she'll, you know, she lived in a warehouse floor with me for three years as we were building the business. You know, it's like she, she gets it.

She knows what makes me tick and she's willing to be a part of the journey and the ride. But like, the interesting thing about a kid for me is that they don't care about any of that shit. Like they don't care about any of that stuff. So like, what I put as a proxy for progress or a metric of success is totally obscure to them. What they care about is me playing on the floor with them for an extra 10 minutes, doing nothing productive from a business standpoint, but just

like being present there. And I love businessman, I love fitness, I love nutrition, I love all that stuff. And I want to just continue pushing the needle there. But I'm trying to figure out how to weigh between that and not losing out on being present in those very important moments with my son. And in doing that, like him being the tangible catalyst for me thinking like this, it's forced me to, like, think about what really matters with the business. And I haven't got it all figured

out yet. I mean, this is not me providing advice because I don't have any to give, but it's interesting to talk to other people. They're in a similar chapter in life, having business growth plans and just, you know, rocking it because like, it's easy for people like you and I to just work for the next 40 years and then look back and not even know what we did and why. And I mean, we can figure out, we can justify everything. Like it makes sense.

But like, I don't know, it's, it's just tough questions, but I

love these questions. Well, that's the that's the end of that is a super deep conversation, right? It's like if I because I'm 31 now, it's if I work for the next 40 years and build an empire and I look back, why? What was it for what purpose did it serve? Like, yes, maybe it created jobs, maybe it helped people live happier, healthier lives, whatever it may be. But what did it do for me? And like, I have no problem saying I'm a selfish person. This is my life.

I want it to be nice. I want it to be fulfilling. And, and what did it do for me If it made me happy, like truly happy and I'm not lying to myself, that's great. But I do have a fear that if that's all I do, I'm not going to look back and be truly happy. And so that's a question that I do consider like subconsciously more than consciously.

Well, when you feel like, when you look at your peers, you don't want to compare yourself to others, but you, you feel deep in the core of your being that you are destined for something different, something bigger, something better, something grander. The fear of not reaching your potential is the biggest fear. Fear of mediocrity is my biggest fear for sure. And that can be dangerous because then there is no peace no matter what, you know?

So like juggling that is a challenging task to say the least. I mean, as you level up, you're going to surround yourself with different groups and so your definition of mediocre is going to change. And if you continue to strive for something above mediocrity, you're going to continue to find new groups. And so then that's going to be never ending as well. 100%

ma'am, 100% well, awesome brother. What do you have cooking? I know where what like about an hour in? What do you have cooking that you're excited about? You get the the challenge, you get the group coaching or you get the coaching under your two people under you. What else in life sketch it just stoked. And the life. So we have a few more spots in one-on-one coaching once we fill that, I honestly don't know if we're on the challenges.

I might just take that time and personally pour into our one-on-one clients in in the mindset Ave. that would be fun because then everybody's happy. Coaches are happy, clients are happy. I'm happy in life, Man, when I said I I I recently fell in love with trapeze. That was over the weekend. My wife just started taking circus classes, doing hoop, and she came home Thursday night at 9:00. I'm already in bed half asleep. She's like, hey, I signed us up for flying trapeze tomorrow.

And she's talking to the guy that's afraid of heights. And I was like, OK, sounds good, I'll be there. And man, I was climbing that ladder, shaking like a leaf. And this, this flying trapeze is what, 3045 feet in the air? And as soon as I did it, I was like, wow, this is so fun. So we signed up for the next course on Saturday. We learned a few more things. It clicked well just because of like a back right in CrossFit and a little bit of gymnastic skill. And I found enough.

So that's fun. And we had the conversation of just, I don't understand how people can feel bored. There's so many things in life that can be fun and exhilarating and fulfilling and like business serves that, but jujitsu serves that because I have to move my body and think about the next step. And trapeze fills that because I have to move my body and, and figure out what to do and when and listen to somebody as I'm flying through the air and, and

strength training fills that. It's just I just want to keep finding what lights me up, really.

How do you, how do you do those things like flying trapeze, which is awesome by the way, Then then, but it sounds amazing knowing that you're growing as a person, you're bettering yourself, but it's probably also distracting from your ability to be the best coach that you can be. Like when you're looking at something that's unrelated, seemingly unrelated, how do you justify the time and resource and just mental bandwidth spent towards that other thing?

Easy two ways. Number one, if I don't do any of that, I'm a piece of shit. Like I am so unhappy that nobody wants to be around me. My, it reflects in my content that I make. It reflects in the way that I meet with my coaches. It reflects in the way that I interact with my clients. And so that's unacceptable. And so just like I tell my clients, if you want to pour into other people's cups, you first need to fill yours. So simple. And then guess what?

I've done Trapeze for a total of 3 hours. I suck at it. Guess who else sucks at things? New clients that are signing up to work with me, right? Because this is all new to them and it's expected that you suck at something when you're new. And so now I have this bartering chip of hey, guess what? I'm bad at things that I start to, but I get better, right? I'm about to get my second stripe on my belt in jiu jitsu. 6 months ago, I had no idea what

I was doing. Guess what, you're not very good at this today. In six months, if you show up like I do, you're going to be amazing, right? And so it's actually really simple for me to justify. So if I did a little bit of it for a while and I tore my ACL before my prep, but I need to bring it back into my life because I feel like it would keep my mental bandwidth going for something separate but aligned with everything else that I'm doing. I want to get my kids into it.

I feel like if I'm doing that with them, it'd be good bonding experience there. And it's one of those things that like, you can do it every single day of your life and there's still be so much to learn with it. So it's like never anything that you can just master, so to speak. So much to learn. And just to put two things in perspective, I have a friend, he's he's my partner in the restaurant I mentioned. He is infinitely more successful in business than I am.

And so with that comes more stress. And we got him into jiu jitsu and he loves it. He's like, man, I don't think about anything else. Like all I think about is surviving in the moment. And for some that might be off putting, but for many, they might understand like if you're present, you're not thinking about the argument you had with your partner or the shitty day you had at work or the business you're trying to build. Like you're just thinking about right now.

And there's something special about that. And then we have the guys that and girls, the moms that bring in their son or daughter and do jiu jitsu with them. And it's so beautiful to see. Like, yes, it's a great bonding thing, but your kids are going to be so confident growing up because of that too. Totally agree. I think you have to have. Something that totally requires 100% of your focus and effort in that moment.

Like for me, that's been hunting, like when I've got an elk in the crosshairs, you know, I'm not thinking about anything else. I'm thinking about my breathing. I'm thinking about placing a, you know, a good shot on them. Like that removes all distraction. And I feel like jiu jitsu totally does that as well. I would imagine flying trapeze as you're going from 1:00, you know, handle to the next would require that as well. But I think that is the underlying common denominator.

You have to have something your life that totally and completely absorbs you and removes all else for that moment. That's it. Some people do it for. Meditation or with meditation, some people do it with hunting, jiu jitsu, you name it. But I do think everybody needs that and this might as well be a Joe Rogan podcast at this point.

100% Do you do meditation? Yes. Not enough. My wife's huge into it. She's she's gotten me more into it. I just don't prioritize it like I should. And I say should because I've seen the benefits anytime I do it massively better. It's just a hard for me to know that I could be doing so many other things rather than just being with myself. Yeah, yeah, I try and. I've tried it as well. I've tried journaling, I've tried to like intertwine that with a, you know, form of

intense strategic prayer. Like having those moments of just solitude I think is important, but I'm not very good at it either. So I got to get that dialed in. But I think solitude is key. I just haven't figured out what's working well for me in that regard. I feel like you just type a people that have a lot of stuff going on, like you, just your mind starts wandering. It's very hard to just allocate a moment in time for pure solitude. It is.

I don't know how or why I've done it, but I created a non negotiable in the morning where I do journal and I almost put all three things you just said together. So first I'll, I'll sit with my thoughts for three minutes, figure out what subconscious thought is easiest to bring to my conscious reality. From there, I'll journal about that and then I'll try to tie it in with something that can make me better. So like what's my take away from this reflection? And I write all this down on the

computer. So what I do is afterwards I'll copy and paste it all. I'll put it into ChatGPT and I'll say, give me a daily devotional that resonates with this thought. And so then I have very small meditation. A little bit of journaling and a little bit of time with God every single morning. Well, Monday through Friday, and it's small, but it does help set the tone for the day. I liked it. So you're you're writing. This in like your phone?

You just like typing in like a notes app or something? I have AI have a. Google form that kind of prompts me on these thoughts. And so it's like, what dimension do I want to reflect on today? And by dimension, I mean inside life, I think there's 4 dimensions. We all have our body, so how it looks, feels, functions, its level of health, our being, our relationship with our self or a

higher power, our connection. So your relationship with your wife or your kids or your friends, and then business. And I'll reflect on one of those. Then I specify what the reflection is right about it until thoughts kind of become less clear. I'll pause, reflect on what I just wrote for a minute, talk about the takeaways, and then figure out what I can implement today to improve in one way regarding that reflection. Do you ever go back and look at those prompts?

And journal entries from, you know, times gone by or do you just do it proactively going forward? Usually just proactively going forward. What I will do is inside my challenges, I run periodically, there's a presentation I give about that. And so then I'll go back and I'll share one of my reflections with them to #1 be vulnerable, show that I do it too, and give them an example of what I want it to look like. Nice, nice. I might start.

Doing that, I got, well, I did the journaling, I did multiple different journaling formats, but I feel like if I digitize it like that and then have ChatGPT or something create a prompt from it, that would make a lot more sense and I could probably stick with that a lot better. So I'm going to, I'm going to put that into practice, man. I'll send it to you, man. I'll send it to you right after this. Yeah, send it to me for sure and I'll start because I use.

Google forms all the time, so that would be pretty easily integrated into my current day-to-day perfect. I got you. Awesome brother. Well, I appreciate it. Man, this is round two on the podcast. We'll happily do another one. Always get, you know, pleasure talking to you. You're doing cool things, man. You're doing cool things in a way that I can resonate with. I feel like, you know, we're in a summer chapter in live for about the same age and we get

similar personality types. And I feel like that in and of itself is key, Like having people that you connect with and have some sense of camaraderie alongside. I think that's what us, we, we as people need. So I appreciate it, man. I appreciate more than, you know, keep doing it. All right, Joe, we just lost Joe. His Internet, I guess, totally crapped out on him at the last minute, but that was pretty much the end of the conversation anyhow.

Truly appreciate him, admire what he's doing, and got a lot of respect for him as a coach but also as a person. He's got a few links for y'all to check out and put those in the show notes below. Definitely check him out, follow him on social, all that good stuff and just benefit from how his approach and perspective is towards nutrition, training, body composition, life, and mindset in general.

I thought there's a lot of coaches out there that just over sensationalize things he does not do that. He tries to focus on making it sustainable for the individual, which I have utmost respect for. So again, appreciate having Joe on for the second time. If you get any questions, hit us up, let us know. Check out his links in description. We'll talk to y'all next time.