Well, hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto savage.com. Today I've got special guest Joe Hoy on the line and we dive deep into the wonderful world of reverse dieting. So I'm always excited to bring somebody on the podcast that is well versed in reverse dieting and talks about that because it's so important. And I feel like some people are just chronically restricting and under eating. So getting somebody to talk about reverse dieting alongside
myself is always a pleasure. Thoroughly enjoy the conversation with Joe. I've got no doubt that you will take something from this. Stop for the delay, sit back, relax, enjoy the podcast with Joe Hoy and We Are Live. Joe, how are you, brother? Doing good things. How are you I'm. Good man, I'm good. I do not know much about you. I've I've intentionally not done my homework. So I like to just go off the
cuff. But and in reading the intro pitch from your agency, it seems as though you are a fan of not promoting under eating, which I'm also a fan of. And I think that is something that we need to dive deep into here. I'm a very big fan of that. I'm also a fan of doing absolutely no research on the person that's going to be on my show cause like you said, it just makes it so much more fun. Well, I feel like a lot of people in the podcast game. How long have you been
podcasting? My first episode came out four days ago, but we have another 40 episodes booked. Nice, nice. I've been podcasting since 2016, consistently since 2018. And one thing I've found is that it has to be sustainable for me. And if I'm doing like hours and days of research on a guest, it, it puts too much pressure on the conversation for it to flow organically and natural.
So I just don't do any research apart from, you know, maybe like a 30 second glance, their Instagram or something, their last blog post and just wing it from there. And honestly, I feel like it makes the conversation flow better because I actually have to listen to what you're saying. And then I have better questions as a follow up. You have to listen. And you also, you're just surprised when I say things and it's, it's, it's organic, which
I think feels much better and people can tell. 100% man, 100%. Well, where do you want to start? I want to get some back story on you. I kind of want to hear what got you into working with middle-aged women to begin with, man. Like I had a friend that was talking to me the other day and he's working with middle-aged women. I'm like, man, you're never going to be a middle-aged woman. So you, you're a excellent endurance runner. Let's dive into the endurance scope.
But some guys can pull it off, man. So what got you interested in working with middle-aged women? Yeah, that's, that's always the starting point. That's always the elephant in the room, and rightfully so. So kind of a three-part story. It starts with me as a 13 year old boy. I had two step brothers. They were in and out of the house, sometimes at my mom's, sometimes at their mom's. And when they were gone, it was
just me and my mom. She was my biggest, strongest, most consistent role model and she saw me going down a bad path. Number one, I was starting to get picked on and bullied a little bit. Number two, I was starting to hang with the wrong kids and do some pretty dumb shit. And because of both those things, he's like, hey buddy, I'm going to go to the gym. I'd love it if you came with me after your homework's done, after I cooked dinner, will you come? And I was like, yeah, I'd love to.
And it made sense to me because I was getting picked on. I wanted to be like the guys at the gym that were big and strong and confident and didn't get picked on. So I went with her. I fell in love with it. And from the age of 13 to 18, I went just religiously, but I never made any changes. I was 511 at 13. I was still 511 at 18. I was 135 lbs at 13. I was 140 lbs at 18. Like nothing really changed. I was super tall, super skinny, still getting picked on.
But she did get me hooked on that. And that changed the the direction of my life. And so I graduate high school, I start going to college to pursue a career in surgery and in the medical field. Because of that, I have to start taking courses on anatomy, Physiology, nutrition, kinesiology, and understand what it is that the body needs for change. So I was my first Guinea pig, but at the same time I was at college and I was away from my old environment.
So I started drinking and partying and treating my body like crap. And even though I was still going to the gym, still doing more of the right things, I was doing a whole lot more of the wrong things. And so I gained weight for sure. But it was the majority of it was fat. And so I gained 80 lbs in about a year and a half. I went from the 145 up to 225. And then I had a new problem. I was still uncomfortable in my body. Instead of being underweight, I
was just fat. And I didn't like that. So I ditched the partying, really dialed in everything I knew to be true. That created success. And that's when it all came together. I I went from 2:25 down to the 195 I am right now. And people noticed 'cause I grew up in a small town. So like, Joe, I saw you skinny, I saw you fat. You came back from college and now you're jacked.
Like, how did you do that? And enough people asked to where I knew I had something and I knew I had to charge for it because so many people were asking. So I get my job in surgery. I'll dive into that in a second. But at the same time, I'm starting this fitness career on the side. It's like my side hustle. And transparently I thought I wanted to help people like me.
You know, young men either gain muscle or lose fat and feel confident in their body because that had a major positive effect in my life. So I start running these online weight loss challenges again. Think I want to help people like me marketing on Instagram, marketing on Facebook and I get a lot of sign ups, but I never look at the names.
And the very first day that I open up Zoom to do that for his coaching call, he got a lot of faces looking back at me and none of them look like me. They all look like my mom. And I panicked. I was like, what the hell happened? Like how did this, why? And what I came to realize is that just growing up with my mom, spending most of my time with her, most of my time with her friends, I learned to communicate in a way that resonated with them just because that's why I was surrounded by.
So I think I naturally drew them in at the end of that first eight weeks. We all had fun. They all got our results and I loved it. And I said, you know what? Maybe this isn't what I set out to do, but I stumbled across it and I freaking love it. So I'm going to keep doing it. And the last piece is I got my job in surgery. I was a surgical technologist.
So my role was to set up the operating room sterile before the doctor came in. And then when the doc was in there, I was helping he or she with the procedure. Anything they couldn't do with their own two hands, I was doing. And again, getting pushed in this strange direction. For me, I was the one man on the team. It was myself and six or seven other women and they chose to take me and stick me inside the
OB and GYM based rooms. So then for the next three or four years, I'm leaning over this female patient assisting the doctor on all these female related problems. And not only that, but I'm trying to be proactive. I'm like taking what I learned from the operating room and applying it to my coaching. So I'd ask the doctor to like, hey, why is this patient in here and what could they have done
proactively to not be in here? So yes, I'm trying to learn from my day job, but secretly I'm applying everything to coaching and that's it. Like six years later, inside of HOI fit, I haven't looked back. I quit surgery a few years ago. And that's, that's just my story. Number one, I want to give back to my mom because she massively changed the direction of my life #2I resonate with these ladies and I have fun and then #3 I understand their body really
freaking well. I love it man, makes total sense. I would imagine too that your impact on the world and the amount of people you can positively change is significantly amplified in the coaching sphere rather than the operating room. One person at a time as opposed to the 100 clients that we have right now. Yeah, absolutely. Did you feel like when you were with the, you know, doctor, was it, was there much talk about, you know, proactive care?
Was it all kind of more of a reactionary basis? It would depend on the doctor, you know, and just like I think we all go to different doctors and experience that, but some of them proactive wasn't even a thought process they had. It was just like, let's look at what we have now and fix that. And some of them would try and educate the patient then to proactively solve something that might come up later. So it just depend on who I was with.
It's interesting, man, I am not marketing to middle-aged females at all in any of my messaging. None of my color scheme, none of my branding, none of my logos, nothing. Yet that is the vast majority of my clientele basis as well. And I think that's probably because that's just the vast majority of the demographic that is looking in, you know, the online space for health and nutrition wisdom.
So it's a pretty big demographic to tap into, but it's interesting and I'm sure we can agree on this, that of that demographic, middle-aged females, the common denominator that I see holding most of the magnified to distill it to one simple tangible thing, it'd be that they just oftentimes jump from one that to the next, all the while chronically under eating. That's I couldn't have said any
better. Like they, number one, don't do anything long enough and #2 anything that they do is generally wrong because the calories are too low and they've eaten too little calories for way too long. Why is that the case? Why is it the common denominator? What is the messaging that they're receiving to make that the norm? That's something that I, I transparently and unfortunately didn't start considering up until like two or three years
ago. And after starting to dig into it, I think it's because they've just been taught by people that didn't know any better. Like we've just recently come into this whole conversation of you need to eat more, you need to strength try it if you're a woman.
But before, when they were five years old, ten years old, 20 years old, their mom may have been or their gym teacher or their health teacher or some older peer was doing the best that they knew how to do with the information that they had, but it was just the wrong information. So it was like, hey, Becky, I know you're 12, but I don't want you to be unhealthy when you're older. So go on this 1200 calorie diet now.
And that's what they learn as a child is good, or that's what they learn as a 20 year old in college or a 30 year old that just had a kid and it's just ingrained in them for years. So like man, if you don't know any better, it's hard to do any different. Yeah, 100%. Obviously, the hormonal implications can come into the picture when it comes to, you know, body composition and what makes a diet sustainable in the 1st place. But before we even peel the curtain back on hormones, what
do you notice when it comes to? Just like, how do you navigate the messaging when the rhetoric of, you know, flexible dieting even fits your macros? Energy Balance Calories In, Calories Out is the reigning champ in the space right now. It's just I, I'm, I'm not a certain diet guy. Like I know that your big thing is keto and if people are doing keto the right way, I am all for it. I know that some people's big thing is, I don't know, let's
just say high carb. If somebody's giving their body the nutrients that it needs and the calories that it needs, I'm generally OK with it unless we start going to extremes because I just want people to find what works for them. Yeah, I can totally agree with that. I feel like a lot of people they, when you work with with, with women, are you noticing that they're eating less or are they having moments where they are eating more and they're just
not accounting for that? They're not tracking that like they're the people that are such big proponents of the energy balance equation in the law of thermodynamics suggests that if you are in fact eating below your expenditure, you will, you know, lose weight. So what would be the the reason for this obesity epidemic we find ourselves in? Like what is the the catalyst there in your opinion? Man, I wish I had that answer like concretely for you. No, I, I don't believe it. OK.
I because we do see ladies that I know confidently contract the right way and they're showing me that they're eating 800 calories a day, 1000 calories a day, 1200 calories a day when their needs, their caloric needs are clustered like 2000. And so they're not blowing their calories out of the water Sunday and Saturday. They're truly under eating and they're gaining weight or staying the same. So I don't believe that's true, but I wish I had this nerdy
scientific answer for you. Aside from the body not evolving as quick as civilization, I can't come up with anything else, right. What I mean by that is our bodies are smart. They're built to protect us, and thousands of years ago, we did not have a grocery store on every corner. And so when calories got sparse, our body started protecting us and slowing down our functions that we burned less calories so that we held on to more weight
so that we could survive. Now our bodies don't know that we have a grocery store on every corner and if we need, we can just go drive to the corner of the store, corner of the block and get some food. But that's true. Is that, do you agree with that or do you think there's something different going on? No, I definitely think the, the evolutionary underpinnings to why, like we are designed to be innately aware of what we need and what we don't need.
However, that upbringing is not in relation to what we have at our disposal these days. I mean, the fact that we can walk to the nearest gas station and pick up, you know, those macho chimichangas that are 800 calories a pop and they're completely void of nutrition is, is our reality. So that is in complete contrast to what our evolutionary upbringing was comprised of. So that that's definitely an
issue. And I feel like a lot of people, while they may be consuming ample calories, they're not consuming ample nutrition. So their desire for more is, you know, amplified. So they wind up consuming a surplus there. There's people that are obviously over consuming, people that are under consuming, but there is certainly a lack of nutrition across the board. That's a really good point. The the calorie versus nutrition conversation is super true. And you're right.
Like I'm not saying that the the entire world is under eating and that's why we're obvious. Like there are certainly lots of people that massively overeat every day or on the weekend and that's why they gained weight. So when you're working with with people, like just kind of walk me through like, what is a typical avatar for them? Obviously we've established they're middle-aged women, but like, what are they? Have they been chronically under eaten, under eating their whole
life? Are they overweight? Are they underweight? Like what is what is a typical avatar look like? And how do you kind of work with them to to scope out what direction they need to take? Yeah, so our avatar is generally going to be a woman, 4050, sixty year older. I actually get really excited when I get like that 35 year old woman that wants to be proactive
because that just makes my day. But most of these ladies have been on diets, you know, the diets, Weight Watchers, Octavia, all that stuff for 5/10/15 years. A lot of times I'm finding now since they were a teenager, a lot of these people think that they need to do more cardio in order to lose their weight. They don't understand that the number on the scale isn't what they're after.
They're actually after a desired feeling of energy and no cravings and no hunger and sleeping through the night. And they're after a desired body, not a not a fake number that's on a tool that we use for data. Those are our ladies. Makes total sense. And when you it's kind of hard, man. Like I've, I've had several coaching calls where it's like, I know they're under eating and then you have to basically tell them, hey, look, you've under eaten your whole life.
We're going to gradually increase your intake or rapidly increase your intake depending on what they're going to respond best to. And you may in fact gain some weight initially until your body stabilize. That's a very hard sell for a coach. When a client just comes and they want to lose weight, build muscle, the notion of eating more to do so is is a is a hard
pill to swallow. That makes our job way more difficult, especially after those first couple weeks, and the scale might jump up a pound or two. Not fun. Yeah. So how how do you kind of let the expectation like what does that conversation look like when you're working with? Them number one, I like to set the expectation that, hey, this
might happen. And because I've already told them that it might happen, when it does happen, they're less freaked out because they're like, OK, well, you said it would, so it's not like it's a surprise. And then #2 I also like to paint them a picture. And I asked them, hey, Sarah, if you gain 5 lbs in our first month or two months or three months of working together. But after that, I helped you lose the £45 that you never
wanted. Fit back into your clothes, be able to have wine with your husband on Friday night, ice cream with the kids on Sunday, and when you get to work on Monday, you still look as good as you did before while living a normal life. Would you be happy? And would you be OK with that temporary 5 LB weight gain every time they say yes? Are they mostly well versed in the gym or is that something totally foreign to him? Not for us. I don't know.
I don't know about your community, but strength training. And when they hear that word, they, they think they're going to look like you or me. And we have to get over, we have to get them over that. Thankfully, it's getting easier because we have a few 60 year olds, 6764 year olds that are just absolute animals in the gym now and they're lifting heavy weights and, and their bodies responding amazing to it. So it's like, Hey, this is what these clients are doing. Do you want this life?
And so giving them the examples of their peers rather than me makes things easier. But now they don't have a ton of experience. I feel like that's, I mean, when when someone is untrained, though, their ability to actually build muscle and lose fat simultaneously is significantly heightened, even if they are older. So like that can be leveraged in so many different ways.
And it gets them excited. Like if people are gaining weight, but they're able to see, you know, significant increases in the performance metrics in the gym, like that warrants that extra weight gain. And it makes that easier to stomach as well. Absolutely. And I, I hope to God that nobody's ever judging their results simply based on the scale.
Like it's a data point. And we also have to take other data points like your bi, your biofeedback, so your energy, your cravings, your hunger, but also your measurements. And so we'll see. A lot of times the scale might jump up like you just said, but their midsection also goes down and their arm size goes down a little bit and their body looks a little bit tighter. And it's like, OK, well, what
are you after? Do you want your body to be in the measurements that you want, or do you want the number on the scale to be perfect, you know? Are you? So these people I'm assuming probably are not well versed with, you know, tracking macros either? Like if you're not weight training, they probably are not familiar with macro tracking apps generally. Not some of them will come and they've tracked calories in the past, but just because they've tracked it, they still didn't
really have a goal to hit. They just stopped By tracking their calories. Magically, something would happen. Yeah. So when you encourage them to start eating more, how do you ensure they actually do eat more? Do you have them start tracking their intake or do you just give them like a, OK, establish a baseline as to what you've been consuming and then increase it by 10%? Like how do you go about that? Depends on the person, right?
If we have somebody that's coming from a really disordered ass with eating, we might not use the scale if they know that's a trigger for the majority of people. We will track food, we will use a scale, we will use a tracking app. And let's be realistic, nobody likes it. Right. But also, nobody really likes where they're at today, which is why they come and work with you and I. And So what I like to tell them is this is temporary, right?
In order to get out of where you are now, we need to do this for a short time just to show you what foods actually contain what calories and macros. And when you understand that and you understand portion sizes, we can get away from it. Because I haven't tracked in years. My coaches haven't tracked in years. So you don't have to either. I love it.
I love it When they start tracking, are they oftentimes shocked at how much more they're consuming than they realized or how much little or how little they're consuming compared to, I mean, is their expectation as to what they thought they were previously consuming accurate at all? Or is it totally an eye opener form? His man, a lot of times I'm surprised, but a lot of times they're actually pretty accurate. Like it's around 12, thirteen, 1400 calories.
Every once in a while we'll get someone that has no clue when they're at like 2600 calories or throughout the week there are like 1600. In the weekend they're like 3000. So then they average what, like 2200? And I mean, that makes our job more simple because we don't have to do that reverse diet. We can just drop them straight into weight loss and that scale goes down right away. Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah. It's, it's interesting, man.
People that are eating so little, they're oftentimes lacking in protein. And it's like, I don't know man. They're, they're eating things that are convenient. People that are under eating often times only eat things that are convenient. And unfortunately, the convenience foods are often times not the healthiest options. Right. But at the same time, like anything can be a convenience food with a little bit of planning. Totally. Do you, you know, like meal
prep? Is that something that you incorporate? I like to meal prep. We have some people that it doesn't work for them and so like maybe they'll make an extra big dinner and bring the rest for lunch the next day. And if that works, that's fine. What I did is I showed a lot of our clients how I personally meal prep on Sundays. It takes me less than an hour for seven days worth of snacks, lunches and dinners. And so they've all kind of adopted that and it's pretty
simple. Yeah, that's the way to go, man. Same thing I do. I do the Sunday meal prep. I get everything ready to rock. And I feel like from a psychological standpoint, having that decision fatigued, removed ensure that they don't eat too little or eat too much because everything's already accounted for. There's just no, because like this, like willpower, as you
know, is a finite resource. And if they're constantly having to figure out what they're going to consume that day or how to track macros, it just, you know, taps into that that limit limited amounts of willpower for they can just remove that entirely, have everything ready to rock, then that's completely removed from the equation. Their likelihood of adherence is skyrocketed. You also get to wake up Monday and know you're going to succeed on autopilot. Yeah. And that's a really good
feeling. Totally agree. So when it comes to reverse dieting, this is a concept that I've talked about extensively, but very few people seem to understand. So I'm glad to hear you even use that term. How do you go about it? Do you do like a gradual stair step up increase? Do you have like a pretty significant increase throughout the gate? Like it's going to be highly dependent upon the individual, but generally speaking, what is your protocol? Yeah, I love that.
So before anything, we need to figure out where somebody is, right? So we'll have them track their nutrition for the next 7 days and just get an average of where they're at. From there, it kind of depends on how long they've been under eating for. Are they 50 and they've been doing it since they were 15 or are they 50 and they've been doing it since they were 43? That's gonna play a massive role in how stubborn their body's gonna be and how much it's gonna fight back.
Generally across the board. We'll go for like a 20% increase that first week, see how their body responds and then based on that and based on their diet and history, we'll bump up anywhere from 50 calories a week to about 150 or 200 based on again, how the body responds. What do you what do you guys do kind. Of depends if they're like a competitive athlete or not. If like my competitors, they're, they're tracking everything, you know, dieting down for a
competition. We've got all that data leading up to that. We know exactly what macro distribution and caloric intake they're responding to. And then from there, I'll typically give them a bolus, increase in protein after the show and then fat as well. And then I'll kind of taper off my refeeds that I have incorporated weekly and then basically just increase daily intake until it exceeds that of the refeeds. The refeeds become obsolete at that point.
And then we just scale up the daily intake until they start to notice some adverse effects. But for competitive clients that are dieted so lean, they can go pretty high with the macros before they notice any adverse effects. So they're kind of a a unique situation there. Yeah, I would say competitors are generally a completely
different conversation. Yeah. But for my non competitive clients, for my middle-aged women that have just chronically under eaten, I'll typically give them a initial bolus, you know, usually around 20%. It's pretty good baseline from or from their baseline rather. And then I'm predominantly focusing on the fats and proteins, not the carbs, obviously.
And I feel like when you don't have carbs as part of the equation, they don't have as much, you know, fluctuation and fluid retention weight, which tends to work well from them psychologically. Like if they don't have to worry about gaining an extra £5 just in water weight from carbohydrates, it makes increasing total calories without having that extra weight increase a little bit more
tolerable too. That's actually a really good point, because obviously we both know that carbs are going to cause that water retention. If you're increasing your calories, and a lot of those are coming from carbs, you're just going to be a sponge for holding on to that water. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. But I feel like a lot of people that are under eating are under
consuming protein as well. So like, you know, what kind of figure out a baseline there, but that's usually a pretty easy macro nutrient variable to titrate up without much adverse response depending on like from my standpoint, how deeply fat adapted they are, that kind of dictates what that percentage is in relation to total fat consumption as well. But most people that are chronically under eating are just also, you know, under consuming protein.
So they're at an increased risk of muscle loss. It's just, it's just bad all the way around. But if you can increase calories, increase protein, and get them weight training, then they start to notice, you know, pretty significant benefits right off the bat. That's like the recipe for success across the board.
Yeah, 100%, man. And The thing is, like, if they feel they just have to be honest with everything else beyond just the scale weight, like if they're establishing that baseline and they're actually asking themselves, OK, what is my sleep quality like? What is my libido? Like, what is my energy throughout the day? Where's my recovery when I do strenuous activity? And they measure against that, when they start increasing calories, it becomes a very obvious win relatively soon.
But the problem is they don't ever consider that. They just focus on what the scale weight is. Yeah. And so getting away from that and again, redefining what success is, is always going to be massive. Because I think that the people that it sounds like you and I both work with are just, they just have the wrong definition of success, right? Because if somebody really just wants to reach a number on a scale, we can do that and we can do it fast.
But when they get there, they're not going to like what they see and they're not going to like how they feel. Yeah, totally, totally. I feel like the being able to just get them excited about the weight training is key. So when you're working these people that are untrained and they don't know, you know, that they don't know what to expect as far as, you know, soreness, adherence, what to expect as far as rate of strength gain over time. Like how do you have that conversation with them?
Do you start them off with like body weight and resistance band movements, then graduate into machines and then free weights? Is that something that they're, you know, easily getting into? Like how do you make that work? It's pretty common, exactly what you just said. So body weight or bands, machines, then free weights. Generally I just want them moving first, then seeing some form of progress either through comfort level or strength. Then we'll introduce progressive
overload. And eventually, like once progressive overload is introduced, naturally, people are going to no longer have a need for body weight or no longer have a need for banson, like they need that heavy resistance from a machine or from free weights. Another big thing that we'll take a look at is how often somebody's exercising because just like most women that we see are under eating, most women that we see are over exercising for the amount of recovery that they get.
And so sometimes we'll have to tone it down like they're doing six or seven days a week of strength training and cardio, and we're going to need to bring that down to 3 or 4. Yeah, yeah, the cardio thing's interesting, man, because I've worked with people that have consumed, you know, far too
little for what they're doing. Then they'll, they'll, they'll not have an eating disorder in the sense of, you know, purging post consumption, but they will do excessive amounts of cardio, like, like, like just obscene amounts of cardio, like walking in excess of 10 miles at the end of every meal, like just craziness. So having that conversation and having, I mean, having people embrace body fat gain initially to kind of get to a very healthy point is, is so hard.
It's hard for me even as a, as a seasoned competitor that's gone through this cycle multiple times. I mean, when you see yourself lean, then the context, some of that is lean and you willingly put on more body fat to get to a acceptable, healthy, sustainable amount. That's a very challenging thing for people that are already overweight and are under consuming and they've wrecked havoc on their hormones, metabolism and caloral baseline.
You know, it, it's you got to have that conversation of, hey, look, you may gain some weight, but you're going to take one step forward or take one step backward and you know, multiple steps forward. It, it's, it's a hard conversation either way, But it's, it's not a conversation that you can have via a simple generic macro calculator online or suit through some, you know, simple one ladder on Instagram, Like it's a very involved conversation that people need to
hear. It is, and there's a lot of trust involved with it too, you know, because if somebody's not bought into the entire process and they're looking really short sighted, really short term makes it even harder because all they see is the weight gain and they don't see what's going to happen after the weight gain. Yeah, totally.
I feel like when people just have to be honest with their past, their prior year's trajectory, like if they are unhappy with how they look, feel and perform and they've quote UN quote done everything out there, then in my mind it only makes sense to do something that seems outrageous and extreme. Like what's what's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different
results. Like you, you do that extreme thing, which in this case is eating more, giving your body time to up regulate its metabolic demands, increase lean tissue via progress for low with your training, improve your sleep quality, hormone function. Like that is definitely a long game approach, but the the opposite of that is just not good no matter which way you look at it. Like it's a down regulation of everything and all things and that is not a sustainable way to live.
Man, I couldn't agree more. And and what you said is actually what I preach almost on a daily basis of like, hey, let's take a look at what you've done. It's been the same thing over and over and over again for years and that hasn't worked. So we should probably try something new to get different result.
The problem I see with that is it's easy for you and me to say because we can look at the diets that they've done and we can tear them apart and look further than surface level and be like, OK, all of these had you eating in a massive calorie deficit. But I don't think a lot of people see that. I think that a lot of people just look at surface level and they're like, well this diet had me eating only carbs and this diet had me eating only fat and this diet had me eating only 8
hours a day. And like, yeah, through that the diet looks different, but if you really peel it back, they were all the exact same. Yeah, totally. So when you bring somebody's calories up and you incorporate this reverse diet and you have them, you know, ideally at a healthy maintenance or slight surplus, how long do you keep them there before you do transition into a fat loss phase? So going to be different for
everybody, right? I say that the rule of thumb that nobody likes to hear is that you want to eat at maintenance for as long as you've eaten in a deficit. That becomes extremely unrealistic when we have a 50 year old that's been dieting since they were 15. That means they're going to be over 100 or close to a million about a math by the time they get in that bikini. And I don't think they're going to do that. So what we like to say is we want to get you to maintenance
or challenge your maintenance. Meaning if the TD EE calculator says you should be eating 2200 calories, let's see if we can get you to 2300 without weight gain or 24 or 25 or 26, and find your true maintenance from there. Let's stay there for a month, month and a half, See how you're feeling, not in terms of the scale, but in terms of what you talked about earlier, those biometrics of libido, focus,
cravings, hunger, energy, mood. And if everything's trending up and then has leveled off, I say you're at your peak and now you've earned the right and you've built the foundation that now we can dive into a fat loss phase that's actually going to work. And by the way, you're going to eat more calories than you were before. Yeah, that makes total sense, man. I, I try and recommend like a three to one ratio from a
competitive standpoint. Like if somebody's dieting, like using myself as an example, you know, I dieted for, you know, 33 weeks from my last prep, I'm going to spend 3 times that minimum in a maintenance or surplus before I die down. I'm actually going to spend significantly more than I'm going to take the next four years at a surplus before I die
down for another show. But I think the three to one ratio makes sense for most people unless they've been dieting, you know, for the last 40 years, in which case, you know, three times. That's going to be a pretty lengthy process. Nobody's going to stick with us that long. I like that real thumbnail. That's awesome. And I'm glad that I'm glad that you can talk about that because it shows people. Look, number one, I'm applying it.
I'm speaking as you right now. And #2 I'm looking big picture because that's what's best for me. Like my body's going to perform it's best because of that. And this is not a finite game. Like this is a game that I want to keep playing for the rest of my life. Yeah. I mean, well, you start and think about it like, yes, you can build muscle, lose fat simultaneously, but you're going to certainly optimize them if you separate them out because they kind of compete for one
another. And it takes time to build lean tissue. But the more lean tissue you have, the higher functioning your metabolic rate's going to be, which is going to like to consume more calories, more protein, more fats, more everything at a healthier baseline. And if it takes a long time to build lean tissue, in my mind, it just makes more sense to spend more time in a gaining phase than in a fat loss phase.
Because you can, you can lose body fat relatively quickly in the grand scheme of things if you do it appropriately, you know, with a sustainable approach. So it, it makes sense in my mind to spend the majority of one's time in a building phase. It's just hard to embrace the fact that, hey, I know how to look leaner. I can look leaner, but I am choosing to not so I can capitalize on this lean, this building phase.
But when you do that, the next time you do lean down, you ensure that you actually look better than the last time you lean down as opposed to the same or worse. Because you know, father times that do us any favors. We're not getting any younger. So maintenance is a myth. You're either getting better or you're worse. And I think if you do it that way, you ensure that you're stacking the odds in your favor to get better from time to time. I love that last thought of maintenance is a myth.
We talked about that a lot because so many people here that they're going to get to maintenance and they think of that as well. Nothing's going to change, and it couldn't be further from the truth. If you're doing maintenance right or hopefully a slight surplus, you're gaining muscle and like it's like you just said, you're going to look way better when you do peel that fat off. But the other thing is, as you build muscle, you're only increasing your metabolic
engine. And so when it's time to peel that fat off, it's also a whole hell of a lot easier and you get to eat way more food while you do it, which makes sure that you can actually do it long term. Yeah, 100%, ma'am. It's, it's interesting because I'm obviously speaking to, you know, bodybuilders. That's, that's what I am. And people assume that these things wouldn't apply for me because I'm not a bodybuilder. But we're all human beings.
And what you were describing with the reverse diet, with a, you know, building phase, a cutting phase like that is all the same for all of your clientele and none of them are competitors. So it's like these, these laws of, of biology apply because we're human, not because we're competitors or not, because we're at the end of the day, I was trying to tell people, look, we're all bodybuilders.
Whether you step on stage and posing trunks or not, that doesn't change the fact that you're either building up your body in a positive way or negative way. So you might as well do so the right way. I was just going to say that right? A bodybuilder is just an athlete and an athlete or or a pro bodybuilder is just an extreme athlete and that is just somebody that takes what works for everyone across the board and pushes it to his extreme, which means it's still going to
work for you. You just don't need to go as hard as the professional bodybuilder. Yeah, 100%, ma'am. That's a hard pill for people to swallow. But like they just assume that it's something other, something different that is not applicable. They just assume that, well, you know, I'm not on steroids, so that wouldn't work or I'm not going to step on stage, so that wouldn't work.
But like having a defined building and cutting phase and capitalizing on those with the right method that is sustainable for you regardless of your age, sex or whatever, like that is something that we would all benefit from. And I think the more people providing that messaging, the better because there are certainly no shortage of people that are just, you know, preaching this chronic restriction, you know, crash dating gimmick game. So I'm I'm glad to hear that you are not in that camp.
No, and it's always nice to get on a, on a podcast with somebody like you and like just chop it up about these things because the conversation we're having right now is a massive minority in the, in the world that you and I live in. Well, it doesn't. It's not as appealing, man.
Like it's, it's very hard to tell people, hey, look, I'm going to teach you how to eat more food, probably put on somebody fat and you're going to do it for the next six months minimum, but that's going to allow you to be healthier than
you've ever been before. Like that's a much harder sell to somebody not nearly as sizzly as, you know, throwing some before and after on someone that's, you know, jacked on their mind on trembolone and eating, you know, pop tarts and stuff and saying this is how you you get ripped. And that's just, it's not what salesman is. It's unfortunate because human nature is such that it always gravitates to this, you know, surface level sizzle.
Whatever is easier, whatever is more accessible, that's what people are going to go for. And so, yeah, I mean, you nailed it. We're fighting an uphill battle, and in both of our worlds and that. Have you had a lot of people coming into your system asking about these Ozempic drugs, Wygovy, semaglutide or is that not really in the conversation? We have a few.
We always shut it down pretty quick because we, again, we just look at the big picture And I had a friend text me that I used to work in the OR with actually, and she wanted to do Ozempic. And because she was a friend, I had the ability to like really go in on her rather rather than talk to her like a potential
client. And I was like, OK, let's look at your end result if you do Ozempic and if you don't do Ozempic and do it the way that I'd preferably like to see you do it, she's like, OK, shoot, like great. You do Ozempic, you absolutely crush your appetite to where you have absolutely none. And you could actually go a day or two without eating because that's how little of an appetite
you have. Protein's the most filling macronutrient we have, and because of that it's even more off putting 'cause you're already full, so now you're eating next to no calories. You're having probably below your RDA of protein. Because of that, you have no energy. Because of that, you're not exercising. Because of that, you do get to your goal weight, but because of that, you look like a saggy Raisin with legs and you have no energy. Are you happy? And she was like absolutely
terrified. She's like, no, no, no, no, I'm not happy. I'm like, OK, cool, well, let's look at it my way. And so my way is the conversation you and I have had for the past 40 minutes. But after you really explain what the outcome is gonna be, it becomes pretty clear on what's right. And especially like, it's an easier sell when somebody is considering Ozempic for weight loss and they're not getting
that through insurance. And then Ozempic's like what, 3-4, five, $600 a month, it's like, well, do you want to invest in that that's going to get you to this crappy result or do you want to spend the same money and get you to the good result? And so again, that makes it easier. With that same amount of money, you can get a a solid gym membership and some pretty good groceries. You know, it's like you don't
need to take the drugs. And I feel like people like this whole conversation around the obesity epidemic, people being overweight or underweight is, is certainly a relevant conversation. But I think more often than not, people need to have the conversation of, look, you're under muscled. You know, you are simply, you know, your composition is not there. Like you are not walking around with the optimum amount of lean tissue for your height, weight and stats.
And I feel like if you look through life through the lens of, hey, what can I do to build and preserve as much lean tissue as possible, then that totally changes the landscape on how you adopt your nutrition, your training, your day-to-day lifestyle factor, your sleep, your, your party scene, the, the, the drug of choice, whether it's alcohol, something
different. Like if you, if you view the world to the lens of hey, muscle is a priority, what kind of to build and preserve as much linked tissue as possible. That is going to drastically shape how you go about your day-to-day. Absolutely. And not only that, but for the women we work with, they're already losing muscle even if they're doing most things right. Like at 4050 sixty, you're wasting away at muscle year after year. They're also losing your bone
density. And so that's when strength training really comes into the equation is because yeah, you are probably already under muscled, but you're also gonna become more and more under muscled even if you just do most things right. So we really need to put a focus on this. Totally. What about bioidentical hormones? Man, I know with your client demographic that is a conversation that has gained prevalence, especially in recent years. Yeah, I'm a fan.
To be honest with you. That is not my specialty and so I don't dive super deep on it. I have had the ability to hire someone on the team that's a hormone specialist so that when somebody presents with low testosterone, yes, that's a very big problem with women, by the way, low estrogen, low progesterone, we can do something about it. That's just not my fear of like, what I can talk deeply on.
Yeah, I would imagine too, like if you get these women eating the right foods and actually weight training and eating enough of the right foods, their hormonal feedback and blood markers drastically improved totally independent of any exogenous hormones. A lot of times, yeah, we will see cases when sometimes no. The other thing that I like to point out is we have a lot of women come in that they haven't
had blood work done right. They just feel like crap because of perimenopause, menopause or post menopause and under eating for years. And so they come in and they're pointing the finger at hormones, but they're not doing any of the foundational things that you and I just said. So I'll always level with them. Like, you know what, I have a connection. I can get you really discounted blood work. I'll help you read it. We'll be good to go and we'll assess what's going on.
But you don't have the right to do that until you've done all of these foundational things first. Because realistically, if we get you on HRT but you're still treating your body like crap from exercise, nutrition, sleep, recovery, stress management, nothing's gonna change. Yeah, I think that's the best way to look at it, man. Like I I don't ever wanna be, you know, Termer knows it to bioidentical hormones, especially with all the science coming up nowadays.
But I feel like people turning to that just as they would would turn to like a way go V or zompic without having the other things dialed in first and foremost. I think that's just a a distraction. It's, it's, it's not where their priorities should be, but I feel like if they've got all that stuff down and then becomes a much more viable option for them.
Absolutely, yeah. And once those things are, are in place, if if it's really not working, we do take a look at that and we have found that it can massively help. I mean, simply looking at progesterone for sleeping disturbances in menopause is huge. Or I mean, again, you were talking about bringing people's nutrition levels up to manage hormones. What I find is a lot of women will have low testosterone and then managing their stress levels, bringing stress down
will bring up testosterone. And even though hormones aren't my my super educated place, I do know that as a woman in perimenopause, your testosterone should actually increase to combat the effects of your estrogen progesterone decreasing. And I mean testosterone's going to be made in your adrenals along with cortisol and it's not going to make both at the same time. So if you stress your body out AKA under E massively, you're going to make more cortisol and less testosterone.
Yeah, and and even before women get to that perimenopausal state, like when they're in their, you know, 20s and 30s, if they are not having a regular cycle, more often than not, man, I see it because they simply aren't eating enough. If they if they ate more food, more quality, nutritious food, that cycle almost always stabilize and returns to normal. So, yeah, we're speaking the same message there for sure. Man, I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one shouting this
from the rooftops. No, Sir, we're doing it. We are doing it well. Let's let's switch gears slightly, man. We got a few minutes left here. I want to hear about things from like a business standpoint. I love business just as I love bodybuilding. So you've been coaching now for how long? Six years. Six years and you get the the website, you get women coming in. Are you doing like a group setting with them or what? What have you found to be the most successful?
Like a group setting, Like a one-on-one. Yeah. So we just do one-on-one coaching. We have 4 coaches that work on the team aside from me. So we have a registered dietitian, she's our head coach, a hormone specialist, a behavior change specialist, and a mindset specialist. And every coach, well every client is assigned 1 primary coach. But at the same time like I hired these men and women that have different specialties for a reason. Like I want every client to
benefit from everyone. So for that reason, all of our clients, even though it's one-on-one Monday through Friday, there's always a support call that's in a group setting with every coach. Nice. That's very cool. I like that model. What have you found to be the best way to get people into the system to to learn about you to just kind of get that initial touch point? Just so that they hear about me and hear about what we do. Yeah, this podcast, right? Podcasts have been huge before that.
And I mean, if anybody goes to my Instagram, you'll see it. We're doing 3 reels a day. Some of it's fun, some of it's educational, some of it's meant to kind of poke you a little bit and make you question if you're doing the right thing. And it works. But nothing works better than you and I having a real conversation and someone forming an opinion of like, you know what? I hate this guy. I'm not going to listen to him or I love Joe. I love how he talks.
I love his mission. I love why he does it. I'm going to spend time with him. And so that's just, that's been what's been the most helpful for us to spread our message and help more people. Yeah. And I feel like kind of like we were saying earlier, you can't really get this depth of a message out in a sizzle reel nearly as you know you as well as you can for via long form medium. And podcasting just bodes so well for long form medium because we can go deep. So I think that makes total
sense. Yep, exactly. What about you? Same thing. Yeah, I love the podcasting. I'm, I'm not doing a really good job at getting like, I haven't promoted myself as a podcast guest because I'm always just hosting the podcast. So I need to actually start pitching myself to other podcasts. I've been on a few, but I just love hosting because it's cool for me to be a host.
I just get to learn from other people, bring them on, learn their story, kind of a deep dive, but I need to start, you know, ramping up the promotional efforts to get on other people's podcast. But yeah, podcast has been monumental for me. Realistically, like if we're talking from a business standpoint, it should still be
helpful to help you grow. Cause like you're, my audience is gonna hear this podcast and if they love you, they're gonna make, you know, I want to go spend more time with Robert. And so you should be like feeling my audience a little bit and everybody else's. Do you find that that happens? Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, I've got this will be
episode 700 something. So I've got so many podcasts and so for so many years that yeah, it kind of has this like you cast a really deep wide net with the podcast for sure. And everybody kind of reciprocates because it's mutually beneficial for both parties on a podcast. So I'm all for as long as it's a good fit. You know, I've had some people pitch their podcast to me and it's just that they've obviously not done any research on who I am. So it's just a very clearly and
not a good fit. Not to say that I wouldn't bring people on that I know that I disagree with because I think that's healthy as well. I don't ever want to become, you know, close minded towards things, but I like bringing people on that, you know, have like, I don't want to bring somebody on talking about, you know, some crazy off the wall topic that is not relevant whatsoever, but this is incredibly relevant talking about reverse diving. Yeah, exactly. I'm with you.
And I used to be that way. Actually. I would get on any podcast I possibly could. And I quickly realized that is not the way to go. So I'll get invited on or I'll have people want to be online. So you know what, I don't have anything against you personally, but I just don't think it's going to serve my mission. And so same with you, I just won't do it anymore. Yeah. And I mean for you as a podcast guest, like it, it takes a lot of time.
Like it takes a lot of time to, you know, give your spiel, talk to people, lay out what your mission is. And if their audience is not receptive to that at all, then then you've, you know, wasted that time. Not 100% waste because you just gained the clarity of, hey, look, this was not a good fit. But you you get more honed in as to what would and would not be, you know, and a worthwhile use of your time. Yep, absolutely. I love it ma'am. I love it.
Well, if there's anything I can do to to spread the message further, you just let me know. Because like I said, the more people shouting from the rooftops about the importance and significance reverse batting, I think the better because it is not widely understood at all, but so very important whether you're a competitor or a 60 year old female that wants to improve her health because she's been chronically eating for the past 40 years. I love it. Yeah.
I think we went back and forth on this and, you know, a little bit, but if it's OK with you, I would love to give one of your listeners some free coaching. Three months of free coaching. That's it. So if you're cool with that, let me know and I'll kind of share how I see this playing out.
Yeah, Rock'n'roll man. Cool. So for anyone that resonated and doesn't hate the 30 year old guy that helps 60 year old women will toss a link in the show notes and in there all I need is your name, your phone number, your e-mail. That's how I'm going to contact you if you're the winner. And then the last box is a really, really compelling reason as to why you think you should be the winner of three months of pre coaching.
And if we choose you when you get in there, the only thing we're going to sell you is how successful you can be. We're going to coach you for free for six months. Three months, love. It love it. Can't beat that offer, man. Can't beat that. I didn't think so. Well, I will definitely put that in the show notes. What what is the the link to the, the website, the homepage, the socials? Where's can people find you? Yeah, So it's just Hoy fit.com.
I'm very, very searchable, just like I'm sure you are, Robert. So just search Joe Hoy. You'll find me on Google, on Instagram, on Facebook, on all the things Internet. Awesome brother. Well, I will definitely link out. Make it easy people to find you. Put that link in the show notes. And like I said man, there's everything I can do for you. You just let me know, brother. Same to you. Thank you so much. You bet. See you, Joe.