Well, hello ladies and gents Robert Sykes keto, Savage.com. And today, I've got special, guest and good friend, Kim Howard's on the line, her and her co-author Ken Berry who's also my good friend recently published a book called Common Sense Labs blood Labs at demystified. So we dive into that. What that writing process entailed, what they learned throughout that process, just some common questions around lipids, LDL cholesterol, HDL. Triglycerides. We talk thyroids a little bit.
We talked hormone panel. We dove into To another one of her new books which is a cookbook, a recipe book. So we just had a great conversation Kim like says a great friend of mine. Always a pleasure catching up with her seeing what she's got cooking literally and
figuratively there. So yeah, got a lot of respect for Kim. Got a lot of spec for what she's doing and it was a great conversation that I have no doubt that you will take something from especially as it relates to your interest in knowing your Labs. So without further Ado, sit back relax. Enjoy the conversation with Kim Howerton We are live Kim, Howerton, how are you? Hello, I am good. I hope that you didn't just hear me taking nice, slurping my
coffee as more than interim. It's one of my God, tell people, I'm gonna start the intro. Give me one second and then I hit play on Zoom. Then I hit play on my mixer and then usually that's when they get their drinking water. But then I just Dive Right into my apologies. My apology. No, no, I was like well, that was not the smartest of me anyway. Right? So we have not, we haven't seen each other in a while. When was the last time we saw each other? It was it at Ken's conference.
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Kennedy shares the common sense lab know what. Hello? What was it called? Proper. Proper human Summit. Yes. And that was in everything is through words August. Yeah. September September Timber, one of the chamber. Yeah, yeah. But then the holiday season said in and everything's been You think since then? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So I have always held you in very high regard. I feel like we always have the conversations whenever we are in the same vicinity.
We all just kind of connect and I don't want it turns into a great conversation. I feel like especially when Ken and Lisa there, you're there Nurse Indies, there. It always just works really, really well from a conversational standpoint. Yeah, it's super interesting. I think we're fine crew and we're so like generationally diverse. Yeah. Although I will say, I feel like I've been having a little bit of fomo here lately because I haven't seen you or can in quite
some time. I guess since his conference and here you are putting out, you know, books with kin. And I didn't even know this but you put out a book with Nisha to. So y'all just doing all kinds of awesome work and I'm just off in la-la land.
Yeah. Well I mean, you and I need to collab on something about working out because I have to say it's it's Was my goal to be better working out last year and I definitely made improvements and so my goal is also to improved from last year for this year and it's an area. I'm totally not. It's not my comfort zone the working out thing but it's definitely something I found
really important item. I that we're about to start the podcast and you said, all right I'm leaving the gym now so that that is at least a step in the right. Direction. You were. I went today anyway. Hey that's good. That's better than not going at. All right. But you know I'm a middle-aged lady and I it's just come home to me. So significantly that if I want to be a healthy old person there's just no other option. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I don't know it's tough.
Like for me, I feel very blessed because I started working out and it became like a hat. Early early on. And a lot of people start working at in high school and they just, you know, stop like they relive their Glory Days of high school football and that's just kind of where they're stuck and they like get the beer belly and then it's all downhill from there. I feel very fortunate and then I haven't really ever stopped. Like it's just been compounding
since I started. But for somebody, that has just started working out and trying to make it a lifestyle in their 40s 50s 60s like that is exponentially harder. So, for those people, I mean hats off to you because you're just doing something that's incredibly impressive in my book. Well I appreciate that. I mean you know like investing right? When's the best time to start 20 years ago once the second best
time start today. Yeah and you know my my I'm I'm of an age where I have aging parents. I mean I guess we all have aging parents, right? Everybody's a everybody's aging but they're getting into that age range, where things start to really break down mmm. And they're in, they've been in excellent health and my dad actually still works out several times a week.
He's almost 80. So he's, he's a really good example of somebody who's just, like, he's not a bodybuilder but you know, he's like just kept up with being functional and my mom who I take after much more on a personality level doesn't real. She was an athlete if the kid, but she doesn't really love to work out. She likes to win, which is why she was an athlete as a kid. But she doesn't really like the the process of the exercise. And so, seeing her struggle.
So much, as she's about to be 80, I'm like, whoa. Oh, like this, this this Ishq goes off the rails, quick, and being able to do things like just like cross the street without tripping or picking something up without hurting
yourself. Like like it goes to the real basic stuff and Yeah, so that's why that's like, why I'm on a mission to really change this Paradigm in my own life and hopefully be inspirational for other people who are like me and her, you know, naturally more accustomed to lie down than lift, anything heavy. Well, I think seeing, you know, your parents go through it for everybody. Really brings things top of mind. I mean, I like like my dad, both, my folks are 61 and my
dad. Has never really worked. I don't even think you know, what is when those are the bicep curl is but he's always been Super Active like on the farm like he you know, hopping up on Hay. Bales climbing up, a frequent battle. Yeah, farmer work at climbing up on a wall to hammer in boards, like chainsaw and heavy treat like all kinds of stuff that is very physically demanding and I don't really worry about his
health at all. My mom is also been very Physically Active like riding horses and she used to do aerobics when she was younger. But like she just had two recent surgeries one was on her knee and one was on her hip and hip Sarge was a couple weeks ago and she's just lost a ton of muscle
throughout that. Yes and she's like I've got her doing keto so she's lost a lot of body fat so she's doing Quito she just doesn't eat enough and I always harping on her she knows that she needs to eat more like I was over there for Christmas just the other day and I had to run through a typical day of what she's consuming and it's like okay you're consuming 50 grams of protein, Maybe. You 114 pounds, you need to be at least, 800 grams of protein, because that, you know, demand
increases as you age to. And you need to be using your body need to be using your arms, your upper body and like, she's like, I just want to ride horses again. And that's a great workout in and of itself and I agree, but it's like you got to do other things. In addition, to just the lifestyle scepter really kind of, keep the needle moving and your favorable Direction. Yeah, absolutely. I think there is a real epidemic of especially older women way under Eating protein and just
way under eating in general. And so I totally and same thing with my mom, right? She had a hip replacement surgery, two years ago and had complications. This was not what we were going to talk about. But anyway, and had complications. And then God, what's that? Horrible nerve condition. It's like shingles. Yeah, like right afterwards on
her leg. So she was not Not very mobile for a while because it just hurt to move her leg and I just saw like just enormous degradation of any muscle mass. And, you know, I was listening to a talk by Doug patent Jones. Are you familiar with him? That name? Sounds only for me but I do not know. He's, he passed away like a couple of years ago. Sadly, but he's a researcher in a Jang, protein and muscle. And he did a study on the effects of bed, rest at different phases, of someone's life.
And what was super interesting is like complete bed. Rest in a younger person. There's definitely some muscle loss, but it's not super extreme. But in an older person like 60, 70 80, it's extreme. It's like, I mean, if I quoted numbers, By just making them up, but like, the graph was like, at least double it was a lot more accelerated muscle loss. And then they were like, well, we think would millage people be kind of splitting the
difference. No. Middle-aged people actually looked almost identical to elderly people, and so you lose muscle real fast once you're at, once you're out of your like Prime hormone years, if you're not active, you can lose muscle real quick. Yeah. And what's crazy is you can Preserve Muscle relatively easy compared to what it took to build the muscle initially, like, if you like it, it's very
hard to build muscle. But then, as you build that muscle, once it's there, it's pretty easy to preserve it as long as you stimulated and you're eating, you know, a calories, a protein, a nutrition. And I think the biggest confounding variable is that as people age, I just stopped doing as much. They stop eating as much and they just everything just
degrades rapidly. Yeah, but if you just simply eat enough and use that tissue, you don't have to be trying to go for pay ours but just like using it you'll preserve that muscle pretty easily. Yeah. Like the bar for just not wasting your muscle is much lower than people think it's like but you know being like almost completely sedentary only getting up to shuffle around your house. Well that's not going to be
enough but yeah. Anyway, it was just an interesting thing that I've been looking into and Not why we're going to talk today, but you're always we always get off on a tangent. I'm I'm like ADHD girl, I'm very hard to keep on track. No, I like all right. So one of the reasons we were going to talk today is because you just recently published a book in cahoots with Ken Berry called Common Sense Lambs blood Labs demystified. I've got it here in front of me everybody.
And I've actually got a printout of all of my lipid panels, all of my hormone panels and I expect you to walk me through and tell me exactly what you reckon. Totally. Yeah. People do they reach out and they're like can I pay you for a session? And I'm like, please I don't don't don't send me your money because I all I would be saying is turn to page 12. Yeah, and so this book was written so that people could actually compare their own Labs
with the things in the book. So it's definitely a self-help guide. Yeah. And I think it's, I mean, it's not intimidating book at all, like, it's like I've got a copy in my hand. It now and it is not a huge book. There's lots of pictures, there's Big Font, like I like it. Like people can pick this up, its color coordinated. It's not like a book of like, oh my gosh, I gotta like, put this on my schedule to chip away at
every single day. It's like, you could totally just flipped whatever page is relevant to, whatever marker you're trying to study up on, and it's boom right there in front of you. Yeah, I mean, we made a conscious choice to be like, it's sort of like a primer for adults, right? You know, if you remember those Is like, workbooks, you had, when you were a kid in school. I'm kind of along those lines. It's not meant to give you a PhD
equivalent understanding. It's meant to say, like, here's the basics of what everybody should know about their labs and then starting sort of towards the back of the book. There's just charts where you can pull out your Labs about any topic that you got here. And then just look, What the standard range is versus the optimal range. Where do I fall? And what might that mean? You know, what's the follow-up, step?
I'm curious when you're writing when you were writing this book when Yuan camera sitting down to do the research on this book, what did that workflow? Look like like where you just getting inundated with questions around, you know, specific topics of like lipid panels on the ketogenic diet and then I okay we need to read a book on this. What does the current research show? Is that research relevant to people that are following a low-carb diet. Like how did that?
Pan out. Well I mean a lot of it grew out of the questions that can bury, my co-author gets on his lives and from his members and his membership, you know, and and over and over and over again. People would send us their blood work me included because I talk about health in general and say like, is this okay, is this good? What does this mean and we'd have to respond you know, we're not your doctor we can't respond personally.
About these things. Unless he was actually he could actually if he was your doctor but he I'm no one stopped. ER, yeah. And he's not an intern, you know, he's not your doctor unless he's officially and even though you feel everyone feels like he is their doctor, he's in fish. There is no official, doctor-patient relationship established. And so, you know, but he gets all these questions and what super interesting going into this was their sort of two
problems we see. See, overall, the first is that there are a lot of people out there in or a lot of doctors out there and mainstream's medical communities who under order. And we talked about this in the book. But, you know, they're like, you know, we'll get you a basic lipid panel and a CBC and CMP or, you know, BMV, you know, we'll get you the basic stuff. That's everything you need. And there are a lot of tests left off those Is that these
annual physical? Numbers might run like c-peptide like fasting insulin, many others, but those are sort of two of the most common left off most mainstream doctors ordered charts and they apply a, especially strongly in the keto
and low carb. You know, this book is not only for that Community, but obviously we sort of have a leaning towards that Community because people in that Community, but we so we want to make sure those people are taken care of, but you could give this book look to your cousin who is not keto or low carb and it would still apply, but there are a lot of tests that aren't being run, that should be run. And then on the other side and this was interesting feedback,
we were getting. And when the book first came out there were people coming to us and saying, hey, your book doesn't suggest like all of these other tests that my functional doctor is, Telling me I should be getting. And first of all, we say if you're working one-on-one with the doctor you should listen to your doctor because this is a general book not a specific book, right?
But at the same time, when I would dive in with those people, a little deeper, there are a lot of doctors out there or not necessarily MD's but they call themselves alternative medical practitioners and things who Are in business, to run a lot of tests because the more tests you run, the more problems you might find. And if you can find a test that you can scare someone with, you can sell them things and so we were kind of in the middle, right?
We're saying, hey like there are a lot of tests that you're not getting that you should. But we're also saying, hey, there are a lot of tests that are probably unnecessary unless you have specific issues that a lot of people are using to. Sell supplement packages or things like that, and we wanted to say, let's let's get a stain. Middle Ground. How do I just check into my health every year and confirm that? I am a healthy individual from a
blood lapse perspective? No, I think that is very much so
needed in the space. Actually just had a ride rules appointment with his doctor was the other day and I was talking to the doctor about getting some blood drawn, because I'm going to start my prep soon and I tried Always do a lab panel done, you know, thinking of the prep halfway through ideally and then again at the end and I was asking him, you know, if I can get a thumb, if I've got any holes in here because you might point something out that I didn't ask, for I ordered a
comprehensive lipid panel with particle size.
I ordered a thyroid panel, I ordered with T3, T4 and reverse T3, and I ordered a comprehensive hormone panel for total Test free tests, Sex hormone-binding globulin, and estradiol and estrogen, I believe, and then a see reactive protein, is there anything that just jumps out not that I'm trying to viroid panel where those total T4 and T3, or free T4 and T3. I probably just said t-33, I don't know if you, I'm assuming him being the doctor would
probably just a faulty total instead of free to tell. Right? I would suggest getting free T3 and free T4. Yeah, that makes sense. It's games, you can understand. So tyroid is found in both bound and Unbound forms. So total is all the thyroid the, you know, hormone and then it's separated into the stuff you can use and the stuff you can't use the free stuff is the stuff that's available for use and so you really want to focus on knowing how much of that you got.
Got you basically the same concept is total testosterone versus free testosterone. Yeah, yeah. Almost all of these hormones are Carried about in a bound form and so there's always almost always bound and free and there are sometimes in specific cases. You need to know total, but a lot of times you need to know the free any glaring holes in that panel. I mean I don't imagine you have high fasting insulin or c-peptide given your lifestyle
and your body fat percentage. So I to I don't know, those are going to be necessary. I mean they might be interesting from a curiosity. Perspective, but usually not always, but usually when someone is low carb, very lean very active, they're going to have low insulin. It's just, it would be, there would be something going wrong if you didn't. But I mean all of that sounds pretty good. The the book I will say, just does a basic lipid panel, not because a basic lipid panel.
Is all anyone would ever need it's Because cholesterol numbers lipids, get so complex. That there are often people that go into the minutiae of lipids, that might not need to write. If we know that you have, I'm not not you, but a person in the world, right? Has extensive severe or even moderate metabolic, dysfunction, you know? Only into the minutiae of your lipids might be less beneficial than, you know, tackling the metabolic syndrome or the insulin resistance varies significantly.
But there can be interesting things in the lipids and so in the book we recommend like ways to go further but it's not and I it's I'm glad I have this opportunity to clarify because some people don't expect this. This book is not a A deep dive specifically into lipids that we recommend some resources for speaking of lipids and I don't want to go beyond the scope of the book, Banning M. Sure.
But when it comes to lipids, do you feel like that is something that we are as a medical community as a, as a health space coming to more or less agreements on? Or is that something that just continually deepen into dispute? It's in dispute. I mean, I'm gonna Say like, you know, if you still talk to mainstream, you know, non low carb medical providers. There is not a lot of agreement that, you know, maybe lbl high LDL isn't the worst thing in the
whole world. And so, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I think one of the things that we, I try really hard to fight against in myself, is silo ISM, right? Like only talking to people that are gree with Me. So, you know, the if the more, if I only spent time with certain types of people, I be like, I feel like this subject is really closed. I don't think anyone debates this anymore, but you see reality is my circle has become so small that I don't talk to anybody.
That doesn't think exactly like me. And so I try to avoid that. Yeah. And so I certainly think there's a lot of people out there who are not on. Team LDL, doesn't matter and at the same time, I think there are more people. Going to discuss the nuance and I think that if you actually look at the research and, you know, true risk calculators, it's not, it shouldn't be highly debated. That there's a lot more that matters than just a simple LDL
number. And so, I think that if you talk to people that are Very smart and conscientious and you know you will find people in the mainstream non, you know, Peter Community. Who who would agree that it's a debated topic, not a settled science because I feel like I'm in the same page. Like I tried to intentionally seek out information from other sources that are not Silent. Not within my quote, unquote, Echo chamber, I could try to break free of this Echo chamber mentality.
I was listening to a podcast with Peter T of the other day. Yeah, yeah, I like Peter a lot. Yeah, I did too. I think is an incredibly bright guy. He's in the ketogenic that I feel like he's definitely well-versed and lot of the benefits of he do but he is definitely on the page of LDL is a, is a, you know, pretty correlative proxy for cardiovascular disease, and
risk. And I think he like, I don't think he's ever said anything contrary to that, and I think most of the studies do Indicate that to be the case. However, most of the studies can correct me if I'm wrong on. This are all done or at least mostly done in participants who are not following a low-carb, ketogenic diet. So, it's LDL and proximity or LDL in tandem to majority of calories coming from dietary carbohydrates, correct. Correct. I mean, that's my understanding
as well. I'm not lipids expert. We need our friend, Dave, Feldman for that, one, or Siobhan Huggins, but you know, The majority of the population of the world is not on a ketogenic diet. The the data on LDL versus cardiac disease, risk is done in the general population. I believe some work on studies is started has started to be done in the ketogenic Community but it's not robust and certainly it's going to take a lot of time. You know. Will you ever get a heart attack?
You can't answer that question in. In a year study, right? And so there does seem to be some more research coming up. I know Dave's work day. Feldman is working on that fairly significantly in his life, but yeah, I think, you know, if I listen to, I listened to Peter atilla's podcast and he definitely, I think, I think it's him that says LDL is Necessary, but not sufficient,
right? Is that him that says that, that like high LDL would show an issue or high enough LDL can can can cause a potential problem, but in and of itself does not
cause a problem. And so, you know, I kind of look at that to say, you know, we look at like Risk calculators for because there are these things called risk calculators, where they've developed them, where you put In a bunch of stuff, you put in your LDL, your HDL, your triglycerides, your weight, your height, your body, like a bunch of Health marker stuff, and it turns out that your risk score which is how much are you at risk of a cardiac event is very, very
influenced even on these mainstream calculators by insulin resistance weight, lifestyle choices, right? So even And when you delve into these other ways of looking at it, I think, I think any Doctor Who's only looking at LDL or total cholesterol is being very short-sighted and kind of lazy. Yeah, I agree. I think it's a fair fair statement for sure. And I feel like a lot of people, I don't know. I feel like a lot of these quote-unquote reference ranges for ideal ideal Spectrum, for
Cholesterol for instances. Like you said, all based off of a relatively sick population to begin with. So that is obviously skewing things and I feel like I don't think there are certainly people out there especially in the keto low-carb space. That think that all Healthcare professionals doctors mainstream Western medicine or just out there in this big conspiracy theory and everybody's just trying to get more money. I do not agree with that perspective. I don't need it, I don't either.
I mean I'm man was in the health care like I do not fall under that Spectrum. However I do think there is Certainly a lot that is pushed from a narrative standpoint. That is a very it becomes a very large ship that is not very nimble like it's very slow to maneuver and adjust things and with that said and with just the way things have been for the past, you know, 50 plus years and just the narrative that has been in place, doctors are often times quick to prescribe statins
based off of a cholesterol. Number that may not in fact be a dangerous Des number, especially, if that individual is following a ketogenic low-carbohydrate diet, we think that's fair statement. I would say that, I think doctors are generally overworked. They are generally don't have enough time to spend with each patient, which is part of the reason we wrote This Book Is they don't have time to go through and say, okay, this is what this is and this is what that is.
And this is why I'm ordering that. And if they had time, I believe, most doctors would like to explain it to you. They don't they don't they On a schedule, they have a certain number of patients. They're required to see over the course of the day and easy solutions and easy answers are going to be of benefit to somebody who's always in a rush. Yeah. And so I think that can influence their thinking as well. Right.
It's like, well, if I'm always in a rush and it might be something complicated, but it could also be something easy. Let's go for the easy option where I can remove In just prescribe something and I'd it's not that I think they're lazy or trying to get away with something. Literally, they're trying to do the best they can with what they've got and that's what they've got.
Yeah totally totally agree. And then often times take the takes the form of a Statin in the, in the shape of, you know, trying to help ones cholesterol numbers. Based on the quote, unquote reference ranges right and where as you know, if you came in with to your doctor's office, With high cholesterol and you were. You know, not maybe not like maybe just like an average human. You weren't overweight you weren't under way.
You were just sort of an you couldn't tell by looking at the person, you know, if they had any like do they exercise, do they not what's going on? Now, I think for that doctor to make a truly informed decision around. You know what course of treatment or is any treatment actually necessary, they have to sit down with that patient and say. All right, let's talk about your Diet, let's talk about your exercise. Let's talk about your sleep. Are you under a lot of stress?
Like, you got to look at all of these different variables, to paint a picture of their health and to really evaluate, you know, what is of concern. And, and I'll also mention, you know, there are health issues like hypothyroidism that some people can have without huge, like, you might not know. Visible, right? If I like a rash, and if you have a thyroid problems, it can alter your cholesterol numbers,
right? So there can be all different things going on, and if that doctor can't have this larger lifestyle discussion with you, their options about what to do are limited and they're in a paradigm where they've been taught that cholesterol above a certain number is dangerous and if they had time to sit down with you and And talk to you and get an idea of what was going on in your lifestyle. And the fact that yeah, your cholesterol went up a little
bit, which not, everyone does. By the way I don't have especially high cholesterol and a lot of people on keto don't but you know, if it went up but you're like, wow. But like, in every other marker, I'm so much healthier. The nuanced discussion even if that doctor still wanted your cholesterol to come down, would be like, okay, well, what could we alter in your lifestyle that might bring that number down, that Violate the principles that you live by that work for you.
I like I remember Dominic D'Agostino somebody, I really admire in the Kia Community. He had higher LDL at one point, then he was comfortable with. And so he found when here, I think it was Dairy when he reduced Dairy and replace. Oh, he didn't like lower-fat he just changed the types and sources of fat and He is LDL came down, right?
That wasn't taking a Statin that was making some shifts within his food choices while still living a ketogenic diet and then other people don't find that Dairy influences that so it can vary. But that is very nuanced, time-consuming treatment. Yeah, I think he also does quite a bit of monounsaturated fats like olive oil. He does well. If he switched out. So he switched out because dairy fat is very high in saturated fat and it is true that for some people they are very sensitive
to saturated fat. Raising their LDL. I don't think people realize how strong Dominic D'Agostino really is like it is oh man. Yeah I mean I don't believe impressive like he was doing 405 on incline. Bench press the other day. I'm just like dude you are freaking animal and I'm like struggling with the bar. Okay, but like it's crazy because he's incredibly brilliant people know him for his you know, his research.
Yeah. But I mean just simply from a strength standpoint like you got to respect what he's able to do. Totally, I mean, and to your point earlier, he people asking me know how much he works out now and he works. He still works out. He has a gym at his farm but he said he doesn't spend as anywhere near as much time in the gym since he bought a farm. Yeah. Like your dad you know he does all this farm work and lifting bales of hay and things like that is so you can definitely
Get get ripped and stay ripped. Just buy a farm 100%. Yeah, absolutely yeah. So, yeah, I mean, he's a good example. Like I think there are a lot of people in the keto. There's a spectrum of opinions in the keto Community. You know, some people are like LDL is never a problem, you know, I move got like what? Paul saladino, it wasn't as LDL like 700, you know, 25 for sure. Like this, this is it was at least five.
It was like, Really super high. I was like I didn't know went that high and and you know, no this is not a problem at all and then you've got people kind of on the further the other end of the spectrum where I like, well it might be a problem but it's one of many variables and so there's there's a variety of opinions, there's not just one settled opinion and I think we all have to find what makes the most sense for us and where we draw our line. And we're we're comfortable.
I could probably turn the page in the book, but do you Top your head, know what the reference range for LDL is by chance. So the, so that's an interesting one. And by the way, interestingly enough we don't have. So, in the book, we have optimal and, and reference range. Reference range just means what the lab says is the average range. Where's that one? Hey, there's a page right now. I'm sorry, what the page in the book of mine turned to it right now, what?
About a bad LDL. Yeah. So if you want the shortcut of the, just the lab numbers, that's on page 62. And so there's a, there's a part of the book earlier, which is on page 23, that has words and things that explain, whereas on page 62. It's just the numbers and it's the quick. Reference range. So, for a lot of things, their standard and optimal in the reference range, but for we put under LDL for optimal range. It's complicated. But the standard range, these days of LDL is 0 to 99.
That's what it says on the LabCorp website and The issue there is it's not always been quite that low it's shifted over time there was a time in the past where they thought having a slightly higher LDL than that was fine. And if you do research historically, you know a lot of Having LDL up more in in the hundreds rather than under 100. Seems to be protective of older people because it would appear.
That LDL is somewhat. It's a little bit complicated about like, is it itself protective or is it called upon when you need protection? But can be a good hedge as your aging against infection. People with higher LDL seem to be less likely to die of infection as their older, which is a Higher risk when you're older. So there are certain very interesting studies where heart
disease should not be alright. It is a big concern but it's not the only thing people die of and so and not everyone with high LDL dies of heart disease and so you have to kind of look at I think all the variables. Yeah, I think that's super important. I feel like it's crazy how how much you can and I think they felt was done really good job illustrating this how much you can impact your lip and panels. By just some you know actions that they Pride leading up to
that blood that blood draw. I know when I'm not competition prep and I'm an extreme deficit. My lip and markers are significantly different than what they are when I'm in a surplus and I think people just need to realize that like people that are not tracking their intake, not working out, just not really in tune with their body.
They don't know why their numbers are the way they are, but if you're tracking on a somewhat regular basis, nothing you have to be a slave to obey means but track on. A regular basis knowing if you're in a surplus, knowing if you're in a deficit trying to get a, you know, lipid panel done in each phase so to speak and you see how those different things impact the numbers. It's pretty. Pretty eye-opening. Yeah. And then there are just like some genetic things that you
just have to know. Like, I genetically have crazy high HDL. I just people, I have the kind of HDL that people are like, how did you do that? And I'm like, I was born in the right family. What's your age do it? 97 that's pretty good. I think I got mine drawn up here to do you use heads up. Health are not yet, has upheld the track, all the stuff I don't but I think they're great. I just have I just don't but I but I think they're fat it's a fabulous service.
Ya know so I didn't catch you after 98? Yeah well it's been anywhere from 94 to 98 when I get tested every time it's Tina one point different like that. So somewhere in there Is there a specific point? I don't put your clothes too high and I don't want to put you on the spot here. I don't want removed. We can go ahead and put our little disclaimer. You're not a doctor. You didn't play well no, I'm not a doctor and I cannot give medical advice.
I'm a little bit safer in that I can't give medical advice. So listen to me at your own risk, but is there a? But there is a debate. So some people will say there is no point at which HDL is too high. There is so I don't believe anyone thinks HDL in, I shouldn't say anybody. The majority of people don't seem to think that age High HDL, a man of itself is a problem. There are certain circumstances, however, where you might see artificially High HDL, due to other problems happening.
So, if someone has Sky High HDL, you kind of want to look at, well, you want to work with a good doctor but you want to leave They probably are going to look at like, you know, does this person have good? Like, are they an overeater right? Some of these numbers can. Like, you were just saying, like, can be accelerated if you're just in that overeating, right?
And and so, there are some people that might say that, if you are in a more toxic state, which is a very loaded term, but literally, like a state of fat toxicity. Too much body fat, things like that, that can that can play in, but the general consensus is HDL, is not something you worry about being high. Unless one of the circumstances that are coming about, like, like, you have gut issues, you are chronically overeating, you're forcing a lot of fat that
your body is not accepting. Well, those Those, those are some possible issues. Yeah, I've always tend to just kind of focus a bit on the ratio, like my HDL. My last test was not, it was like back in 2020. So it's been a while and I had a 138 HDL, so pretty over pretty high HDL. Yeah, and my LDL was see here. It was high as well. It was 192 in my trigger 79, so the ratio was good though. Right?
And, and I was, I was, I was not sure what your said, you might say, your LDL was not that, that high, a common profile that Dave, Feldman sees, is something called a lean mass hyper responder. And I don't remember the exact cutoff points of that, but it's people who are on a ketogenic diet or very lean and they tend to be very athletic, not always but they often are working. Quite a bit, they will have both high LDL and high HDL. Your HDL definitely is very high
fitting in that category. Your LDL is a bit high sitting in that category, but sometimes I see people with HDL, like yours, but they're like, LDL is like 300, but I believe your numbers, definitely qualify you for that category of lean mass hyper responder. And there's a lot of study being gone. Going into these people to look at. You know, why are these numbers
the way that they are? And it looks like from Dave's research that there are very Niche group of very athletic lean, super lean people that that that end up with these numbers and they're a bit different than what those kinds of numbers might mean in a not super lean athletic individual.
Yeah, I think the In take home, is it just is so much nuanced and I feel like anybody that just you know, puts people in a box and say okay you're within this range, you need ex-drug or this lifestyle intervention is just totally missing the force of the trees. Like you have to look at it from a new on standpoint, have to look at the individual and there's so much more to it than just grouping people in big
boxes, right? And I would imagine, and this is probably why you're getting this blood work done. Right. Is now. And then later is your, are you starting on a vulgar? Or a cut. So I'm going to building phase. Now I'm going to W. My last prep was in 2020 back when I got this this last panel. So I'm going to do another panel prior to my cut, which will start in April. So anytime between now and April, I get a panel done and then I'll do one about halfway through.
And then again at the the conclusion of the prep, okay? The hormone panel has changed drastically drastically, right? But you know, as I mentioned earlier that thyroid hormone effects cholesterol hormone So you know these all these hormones, pull on each other, they're all attached, and so and then sex hormone-binding globulin, you know where you are with that if it's a binder, right? So it's going to affect the free amount of certain hormones.
So like you've got, you've got so many moving parts and whether you're in a surplus like you are in a build phase or in a deficit like you are in a cot or an extreme deficit like you are Are towards the end of your cut. Probably. Hopefully not. But if you know, maybe and though that's all going to significantly impact. What your, what Your lipids might do. Yeah, yeah. That that's so, so important.
I feel like a lot of people, I think one of the actually recorded a pun or not a podcast, but a video today, for my course, on this, very subject matter, because I feel like a lot of people compete too frequently or they just simply even if they're not competing. Yeah, they go into a cut, too frequently. Largely because they don't get these blood panels drawn. So they can't quantify how much it's truly impacting their markers. If people were to get that, there was a mandatory test.
That's okay. If you are going to do a cut, you have to get these panels drawn at the onset. Halfway through at the end, that would at least make it, you know, apparent to people how these things are being infected. And they would at least hopefully not throw caution to the wind when it comes to, you know, going through an extreme
cutting phase, right? I mean the amount of stress, Is that, I mean I have never done a bodybuilding cut, but but I certainly have done a lot of research on the topic and not as much as you know, nowhere near but, but I've touched on it, will get you on stand you on Kim. I go. Oh, yeah, it is, is that it's an enormous stress on the system just an enormous stress. And if even if somebody has like naturally great levels of sex hormones, they are going to be in the toilet by the time.
Stage ready? And you don't want to do that to a body too often? Yeah, I feel like in my 2020 prep my total, I didn't test free testosterone but my total went from 719 to I think for 36 and I was 29 at that point. Yeah. Which is not a trivial drop and I've you start out with pretty high. That's a pretty solid testosterone level. Yeah. I mean, I've had some like 50, I hadn't won 55 year old client, That had told testosterone of like, 11:00 or something crazy, I don't know.
Where is free test was, but he was told he was not on any any drugs at all. Wow, I mean, yeah, I know there's a lot of variability and at the end of the day like you know I mean we can all like have measuring contest about things and like oh yours is fired - multi, you know, it's like it's really like how do you function, right? Some people do well on lower numbers, just fine, but you got to really look at, you know, are you feeling good?
Are you functioning? Well, and I don't know very many late cut contest, Preppers who are like I am raring and ready to I mean there's there's a fair amount of force. Yeah, but I feel like, you know, that that is stressed to like it's crazy how much stress can just wreak havoc on hormone levels, testosterone specific. I've seen people's testosterone look as if they just finished a competition prep. Simply based off of them being under a lot of stress at that
moment. Acutely. Yeah, I mean you know we've talked a bunch about about lipids but really the focus I like the my strong points on writing. This book were much more about like metabolic Health topics. And one of the things that I think I so often see in my practice with clients on, I do coaching is that, you know, they come over and over and over would like what, you know, maybe it's I should cut one more gram of carbs or you know, Is it that it's like food.
It's all like food, food, food, food, and, you know, when they're not seeing the results they want, and I'm like, well it back it up there because you know, whether you're eating five grams of carbs or seven grams of carbs probably is not as essential as the fact that you wake up four times a night. Yeah, and we need to talk about that.
Like let's stop paying attention, like nutrition is absolutely 100% the foundation, in my opinion of good health but you still have to build a house on the foundation. And if sorry go ahead no I'm just totally agree with you. I feel like yeah on that subject. I've actually get this is relevant. I get two new employees and I had two extra. See GM's that were sent to me so I don't like plug these see GM's into my two new employees who are not well versed.
In Quito nutrition, welcome here at all. They're just kind of learning as they go. Yeah, you know, and it's been super cool for me to use this as like a learning experience for them.
Because like it's like you and I and people that are like listening to this podcast we take for granted how much we know about nutrition and we just you know that we take it for granted but like when you have somebody who just simply eats ad libitum whatever and they don't really realize how it impacts them for them to be able to have a CGM and see like one of them was waking up at midnight to eat a bunch of cookies. It's like yeah that's gonna have a pretty profound impact on your
CGM. Scores on that note there for a while. They're there was like this big debacle in the ketose. Space about people using see GM's and lot of people that were not in the keto space where, you know, Throwing Shade and saying, why in the world are you used to CGM? If you don't, if you're not diabetic I'd be curious to get your take on see GM's and how somebody would use them to Garner actionable data.
Right. There's actually a section on that in the book page 48 ish about, you know, ways that you can use blood. Add sugar testing to help you make good food choices. What should your blood sugar's look like on a you know a diet that's working well for you. I will say that in the book I do and we do say there are some people, we don't recommend, get a CGM and those are people that are going to obsess about it, right?
Because I do think that sometimes there are certain personality types Oops who are going to just constantly freak out and the CGM. The monitoring is going to actually increase their overall stress and so there, I think there are people who it's not a net win for.
Yeah, because the reality is, if you're already making generally good food, choices your blood sugar might go up and down a little bit, but it's not gonna go crazy unless you have These are some other type of problem, which, you know, you should rule
out for sure. But if you're somebody who eats a low-carb ketogenic diet isn't snacking all day, stays away from the keto junk food, most of the time, you know, maybe even eats just a low-carb diet, not even fully keto, you're not going to have wildly swinging blood sugars. And if you eat a purely, ketogenic diet, we all often say that watching your CGI. IM on a ketogenic diet is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Yeah, it's a pretty flat line and so you can, you can totally
learn from wearing a CGM. But I think there are certain personality types and I've talked to them, that they, it's very hard for them to understand the limits of the CGM. So, a CGM isn't gonna. It can't differentiate between two very close together numbers. So it's only accurate within a certain range So I will have people come to me and say well my CGM said, my blood sugar was 78 and then I ate this thing and then it went to 80 and I'm like those are effectively the same
number. You're a CGM is guessing at that point because they're within a sort of range of tolerance of numbers or an error range and so I would be unethical of me to suggest that something and there or something didn't happen there because the data is not precise enough, the data are not precise enough, I always use the wrong it for you to draw a conclusion and I do see in the keto Community people trying to draw conclusions on bad data sometimes or incomplete data or
inaccurate data and and on blood on their CGM and I think those people Probably could use a wake-up call, and it would probably help their stress level to say, you know, as long as you're curve, is relatively stable, you're doing great, and I would stop worrying about the little minutia. However, for people that aren't those people, you know, the people who like fast and meditate and you know, take cold plunges, you don't a real like that like hyper on it, people.
Those people are more like, maybe you need a nap, but if someone is like, ah, I just eat cookies because they're Tate, you know? Like the other end of the spectrum where they're not like your employee new employees, right? Who are super not conscious or regularly falling off and just assuming it's okay. You know, for those people who need a wake-up call, I think a CGM. Probably is a great idea.
Yeah, it's kind of the whole debate with like monitoring ketones to like I am never one to say people have to monitor ketone Seems like when I get a new client and they ask if they should purchase a keto monitor, like I tell him, it's totally up to them, we can do everything that we need to do without it, it's handy, but it's not necessary and I feel like there's definitely a component of, you know, analysis,
paralysis. If you just allow yourself to become a slave to whatever number that shoots out at you. Yeah. And certainly, then I also see that the opposite, right? I have a lot of people come to me, who are like, I'm not losing weight. Should I get a CGM? I'm like, well, a CGM is going to tell you things about your health, potentially that might be useful to you, but I don't find a lot like on a very pulled
back level. Yes, there's a correlation to like wildly swinging, blood sugars and and not being super healthy, but it's not going to be a guide. That tells you how to lose body fat. Yeah. For most people, right? And same thing with a ketone monitor. It can certainly Help, you know, if you're in ketosis or not. But are you hungry? And are you being driven to eat more or less? Like that will tell you what, you are probably more looking for an answer to.
Yeah, I'm just waiting on them to come out with a CCM. A continuous cortisol monitor so I can see what my Pops that can't. Yeah, that'd be good. I thought you're going to say, continuous insulin monitor. That was the dream for a while. Yeah, that would be good too. Yeah, that would be good too. I mean, they've got the technology, right? It's just, it would be not cost-effective for most people. It, the problem is that insulin is Is a much more tricky thing to test.
Like the the, what they're testing, what they're running, the tests on like it has to be kept cold, it's not as stable. And so it's harder to do without a lab gotcha, it makes sense. You need a bigger sample, you know. So but that people have tried. I once met with a guy who was trying, it never I don't I haven't seen it yet. So we'll think about speaking insulin. What's your take on physiological? Insulin resistance resistance, I prefer to call it.
Adaptive glucose pairing, right. Define that for me. So, physiological insulin resistance is essentially, when a body acts, like, it's insulin resistant. And what, what is insulin resistance, right?
It's There's pathological insulin resistance, which is when you develop the pathology which, you know, I mean I don't want to get to layman's terms here, but I tend to think, pathology problem, you know, the disease course of becoming insulin resistant is when your body stops recognizing insulin as what it is there to do. So, in a healthy body, You have a need for insulin which is going to help you shuttle.
It's like a nutrient partitioning hormone so you eat a piece of fruit and your body says okay well we now are taking more glucose on board than we need in this moment. We're going to raise insulin slightly that insulin going up is going to shuttle some of that glucose into other parts of the body, the liver. Ever muscle cells. If you but over time, you can overtax the system and become insulin resistant, which means I always like, I'm your audience
already knows this. But I like in it together, like really like a song on the radio and you just keep turning it up. It stops sounding loud after a while. Yeah, and then somebody else gets in the car and they're like, what is wrong with you? That is too loud. You become sound resistant. As you keep cranking up the volume, When you are constantly overwhelming your cells, they become insulin resistant, they don't recognize insulin at lower
volumes. So you keep, having to raise the volume, which means, whereas a little bit of insulin, we used to do the job now, you need a lot of insulin. And so that's insulin resistance and that, but that's pathological and from a busy and mechanistic standpoint that continually elevated level of insulin, Owen. Yeah, is very inflammatory towards the body. It is very inflammatory and that chronically elevated insulin is associated with a lot of progressive diseases, heart
disease, cancer. Like it's insulin is a growth hormone and it tells the body to grow. And so it is very associated with a lot of problems. If you want to read a book about that been bickmans, why we get sick is a good one about how Anemia chronically High insulin leads to a lot of health problems, including type 2 diabetes but not exclusively, but not only that one, but there is in the literature something that can occur called physiological insulin resistance.
Now, in this case, of physiological insulin resistance, you won't see high fasting insulin or high c-peptide, which are both markers that. Say, your, A body is, in a chronic hyperinsulinemic state, right? You're you're not swimming in a sea of high, insulin people who generally have physiological insulin resistant or people that actually have low fasting insulin. But what's happening is that their body has gotten so used to not needing much insulin to help
their so insulin. I'm stopping to try and make sure I'm explaining this in ways that will help people. Let's have you ever heard of people doing a glucose test? Like, Crystal probably was asked to do one when she was pregnant, right? It's where we knew would fail. It's where you're like they give you 100 grams of sugary carbs or 75 or some number. And they're like drink this. We want to see what your glucose does.
If someone's been eating low carb for a while, they will fail that test because their body is not used to that much glucose, and insulin is very stingy. So if if you are constantly teaching your body, that we only need this much insulin for the amount of carbohydrates, we tend to ingest. It's like you live in California so you don't own a heavy parka, right? Because you don't need it here, but if I suddenly drop that person in the middle of the Arctic, they're going to die because they so.
But if you prep someone properly like if I took a low-carb person and fed them carbs for three or four days, they're fasting insulin would creep up enough that they Hood handle that sudden influx of glucose. And so, that is a short-term physiological issue. It's not a chronic or pathological issue. It's just how you've trained your body to respond. And so, I don't see it as a
problem. Yeah. I like the Adaptive glucose sparing terminology a bit better and I think, I think there's been a lot of fear-mongering
around this. Geological instant resistance, but I feel like, yeah, like like by my standards, if I was to consume a whole bunch of carbohydrates, I kind of liken it to the inverse of Quito. Flute-like if you have not been in a ketogenic diet for years and then you do a ketogenic diet, you're going to have these quote-unquote keto, flu-like symptoms, because you're basically 180 degree shift in your body's primary fuel source, the same is true in Reverse.
If you've been key to for quite some time when you transition to consuming more carbohydrates, it's not like your body forgets. How to process, though. That just takes a little Bit of a nap regulatory period. Yeah you just weren't ready, click your body like whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't have the gear yet and so you just need to. Yeah, your body will not forget what to do with carbohydrates. It, that is Elemental to who we are the species. It is just that you need to.
I mean I don't think that abrupt change is good for anybody. If you were, if you took like months off of going to the gym and then you went in and did your normal gym routine you would break yourself. Yeah. It's just like anything else. You gotta be aware that transitional periods are weird and you've got to take care of
yourself in them. And I think some people have used this concept of physiological insulin resistance as an argument in favor of always consuming some A sign carbohydrates to prevent that from happening which I totally respect that argument. But I don't necessarily think it is inherently required. It's just kind of like what do you want to optimize for so much? Right? Well, I guess my question to them would be like, why? Like, I mean, like I eat more
carbs than you do these days. I'm more on a low-carb diet than purely keto. So I don't think I would fail a glucose test but but I'm Very strongly on team. Eat the way that works for you. So I'm not against if somebody's like, hey, I like to keep carbs on board. So I'll never be in that state of my body being confused, but you would never know that you're having that problem.
Unless you did a blood test right there are if you are somebody that now some people get gastric distress, their stomach gets upset when they eat a food, they're not used to, but that's good. That's a separate topic. I mean, that will happen with a lot. Like if you're lactose intolerant, there's so many reasons. You might get a stomach ache.
So you gotta, you gotta play into that but just the like the fact that your blood sugar was a little higher than it normally is Most people I said a little bit higher. I don't mean like sky-high but a little bit higher, you won't notice that. Yeah there. Well there's no downside if you're working out and you eat some extra carbs and I fed you an apple right before a workout, your body would just use that in the workout.
I don't think you would, unless you got a stomachache, I don't think you would really, actually even probably notice it. And so the argument that people might be making That you don't want to get in that state where your body is confused. I just, I think they're not giving their body enough credit. Yeah, I totally 100% agree. 100% agree. I have been remiss had not even talked about your other book,
which I honestly, to be fair. I don't even know you had written until you see the comet since last book which I had a copy of that, but thanks for the additional copy but I didn't realize that you had written a Recipe book A book Niche. Yeah, yeah Nation. I a couple of years ago were hanging out and we were talking about like, our sort of family favorites over the holiday season. And so we decided to put them in a book and we just had a digital
book at the time. But we when we printed Common Sense Labs, I realized, oh, let's get some of these books printed as well of the, it's called our holiday table. And it's you know, about 100 page recipe book, easy. Not too. There are a few that I'm like this one's kind of complicated but it's fun for the holidays, but most of them, super simple. It's all like celebratory
holiday style food. Some of the recipes are niches based on Family Recipes. Some of the recipes are mine based on family recipes and it should have fun way to get some holiday recipes in Your Arsenal. I like it. I like it was is a fried turkey in there. There is not fried turkey but there is Now, in the cookbook of next year, they'll be an update by the way, but this year.
So in the cookbook I did. I, Nisha does cornish game hens and I did the turkey and my turkey recipe used to be cooking the turkey upside down, which is the breast side down and the Dark Side Up. It doesn't look as good but then as you're cooking it all the fat from the dark meat, drips through the chicken, the breast part gets you. And so it keeps Is it moister it Cooks? It slower. So you don't end up with dry
white meat. But this year, Eric my boyfriend and I did spatchcock to Turkey. What does an this spatchcock case pellet? Which we SP a TC HC Ock, I think span fat measurement for. If you basically remove the backbone of the turkey, you can also spatchcock chicken or any bird. Right. You remove the spine. And then you've basically got and then you and then you break its rims. So you can see it's a very aggressive way to prep a turkey but you cut out the spine and then you crack the ribs.
So you basically have a flat turkey. Okay, does that make sense? Yeah, I'm following you used to be sort of round and you take you cut out the back part of it and then you crack it. So it's flat as possible. So now it's all one plane and then you cook it and it Cooks super fast. And it is so good and juicy and because it Cooks so fast, it doesn't have time to dry out. Gotcha. Gotcha. We've always done a deep-fried turkey and are Hampshire. That's delicious. It is amazing.
Like I love deep-fried turkey. It is hard to beat, it's definitely a southern thing. I believe in my dad was getting a doctorate Minnesota. He would deep fried turkeys for people up there and they just like looked at him funny and then they tried it and they just wanted him to keep bringing deep-fried turkey. It like everybody uses, peanut oil for deep fry a turkey and I don't know. Like, what's your kind of get along little punk ass right now.
You sure peanut peanut oil is very high in poof, has polyunsaturated fatty acids. So some people are very concerned about the composition of their oils, one of the issues about boils, you know, I have a good. Well it's like I don't know if it covers all of it but I'll send you a note. Oracle. If you want to include it in the notes but about different oils and cooking them at different things.
And So some like some people are very concerned about one frying because frying causes a lot more oxidation and it's oxidized peugeot's are considered to be pretty bad by a lot of people for sure. But then other people will say well when you fry something it Cooks so quickly that oil is only in contact so is that really an issue, right? So there's lots of debate about these things.
If I were to If I'm going out to a restaurant, I'm not worried about what kind of oil you use and I'm going to assume it's a bad one. I would just not get fried food, right? I'm just like at there's a little of it, not canola oil that I'm not super excited about in that, I'm just going to assume it and move on with my life but I don't buy it for my house. So it's going to be a small fraction of my diet, right? So I guess then my question is you know how many things you
frying peanut oil? If it's once a year or your holiday turkey, am I going to freak out about it probably We not yeah, but if it's a regular thing you do then I think it's something to think about and in that case I would probably be more inclined to fry in maybe tallow. Which is beef fat. I agree. It's very tasty. I was pricing out what it would cost to get enough Tallow to deep-fried turkey and it's something like 150 bucks for that.
That's probably not cheap. You know, you can render your own callow. I know you hunt so you could save the fat and render it for later. But yeah, I mean the problem with frying like a turkey is you've got to get like a giant Boiling fat.
Yeah, not use a small amount. So yeah, I mean it's definitely something to think about but again, like I really try to go on the like let's just be saying adult humans and if you're doing this once or even twice a year and your diet is like top-notch, all the rest of the year pretty much, I don't know that you're ingesting enough. Problematic compounds in those two servings of turkey, a year that were fried in peanut. Boil. The I'm going to be upset about
them. Yeah, that's kind of the, The Stance of taking on it because we'd literally did once twice a year, but I do want to try it at a low fried, turkey, just because that sounds like it's going to taste amazing. Even if it's well maybe you could do just part of a turkey or a very small turkey and see it so you don't have to buy as much towel. There you go, maybe we'll have a deep-fried recipe next to the spatchcock recipe. Sure, you know, send it over, we'll put it in the in the
recipe book for next year. Love it. I love it. Well, Kim, where do This book comments and slams, what what does the neighbors? Find it at Common Sense? Labs book.com you have to include the word book. Common Sense Labs, book.com will get you to the link for getting the labs book and Kim Howard send.com forward. Slash books will actually get you to all books that I have written. Some of them are just ebooks and some of them are ebooks and
physical Books available. Is there a Separate website for the recipe book as well or that is on Kim Howerton.com books. It does not have its own URL at this point, it might in the future, gotcha. I gotcha. And for anything in all other things. Kim Howard. And where do people go? Tim. Howard and.com is my website. So that's probably the number one place on social media on Instagram and Facebook. I am the Katonah State.
Th e KET 0 n is T. And on YouTube, I'm just empowered to love it. Well Kim, we're an hour 10 minutes into this and there's just still so many things. I'd love to chat with you about what you seem to like, see each other again here soon. What I know me to hang I will be in Denver for low carb, Denver. You going to that?
I don't know, I've been invited. I've been invited to have a booth there but I'm probably will not be going there to be totally understand mate, and make its, which decision last minute. But this first quarter, I've intentionally not gone to any punt conferences that I can just stick my head down and get to work on some things for smart. Yes, I probably will not be going to that one. My first for sure conference is the one is Quito Con in April.
Yeah, I wasn't going to go to Kyoto con, but Nisha and Ken Berry talked me into it. So, I'm attending I'm not speaking or doing anything official. I'm just going to go to say, hey, to people. Well, let's most certainly get if not before then. Certainly then let's get like a, like a little meet and greet setup. We're all had dinner, something together, like, we normally do, and we'll just go talk shop and catch up. But hopefully, I mean shoot, we'll have to see each other all before that.
That's not until April. Yeah, absolutely. Let's we'll find a Time. Awesome will Kim. It is always a pleasure. I think the world of you, I've got most respect for you. What you doing, what you stand for and I cannot wait until our next conversation. Thanks so much. I back at you, I have to say, I mean, you're just a pillar of the community or a stand-up guy, a super awesome person and you married well and your kid isn't bad either. So you're all a great.
A great family and I love what you're putting out there in the world. Thank you, Kim will definitely. Let's also definitely have a conversation in the not-too-distant future. Maybe another podcast about weight training, I'm curious to see what you've done with the personally but then also throw your community specifically kind of how how I can add any value to them if at all possible.
Because I think like you were saying at the very beginning this podcast incorporating that into the day-to-day routine is absolutely Paramount. Absolutely, I love to talk about that in the future because so I think weight training for the emotionally resistant is probably, you know, a good thing to talk about physiological resistance, we get emotionally resistance. I like you were coming up with all kinds, there's all sorts of resistance out there, yes, yes,
awesome camera. We will talk soon for sure. Until then you have a wonderful 2023, you too.