Hello, ladies and gents Roberts. Alex Quito Savage that commented, they have got special guest Marjorie Lucas on the line and she is one of my clients we've been working together for years. I've helped to go through multiple competition preps all with a ketogenic approach and she is amazing. She's looked better every single time. She's at Grace, the stage, and I've referenced her on several podcasts.
So I figured I'd just have her on the podcast because how we've gone about her reverse diet, and how strategic and conservative, and slow, and controlled. We've done, In this reverse that has been really eye-opening to me to see what's possible from a compositional standpoint from a metabolic standpoint, from a hormonal standpoint with a slow and controlled reverse diet.
So I wanted to bring her on the show, talk about her experience, with the prep, with the reverse with all that stuff in my mindset standpoint from a physical standpoint, all that good stuff, all things, competition prep and reverse diet-related. So without further Ado, sit back, relax and enjoy the podcast with my good friend and client Marjorie. And we are live. Marjorie, how are you? I'm doing well, Robert. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to chat with
you. So you are a client of mine. We've been working together for, how long have you been working together? You're probably one of my longest standing clients for sure. Since 2019 since I started my bodybuilding Journey. Yeah, it's been a long time for sure. And you visits been cool to work, Them because I've seen all this change unfold over that entire period of time. And I've referenced you on multiple podcasts as of late because of your reverse diets and kind of how we've gone about
that. Reverse that, which I think a lot of people would benefit from hearing, but before we dive into the reverse that can you give us a little back story as to, what got you interested in competing in the first place? And kind of just bring us up to date. As far as, you know, when you started competing what the motivation was behind competing and how that's impacting. Your life directly. Yes, definitely, Robert. So what kind of got me into competing in bodybuilding shows?
I used to be a long distance Runner. And when, when I was like, 26, Yours old hats when I had to stop running altogether only because my knees would lock up. So that's not certainly good. And honestly just me training and doing running. I wasn't able to train as hard as I wanted to and that really just discouraged me to continue on in the sport of long-distance running.
So I really had to go into a different sport because I love Fitness and I love fitness and health in general so I want that to be part of my life and so So in honestly bodybuilding and competing and shows that with something in the back of my mind for a while, I knew that my nutrition was going to be involved, so I even did my own like How It Fits your Macros.
And I did, I've done all those things and I've even even done some tracking when I was about, maybe like 26, 27 years old and I just continued that on. And and then even when I worked as a A fitness kickboxing instructor. I met more like-minded people and fitness and be start talking about you know, bodybuilding shows.
And that's how you know I looked up things on YouTube of how late, you know, bodybuilders how they weigh their food, how they track their macros and how they do training and how they kind of balance that with their life and and honestly in 2019 that's when I just decided to just to go into that space and just say, okay I'm going to do it. I'm going to Pete.
Yeah, no, totally. I think a lot of people when people get into running, I feel like, especially I feel like with females, a lot of females run to lose weight, to lean out to have this trim, toned physique. And I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding around women in weightlifting, and they just afraid afraid of getting jacked in yoked and putting on too much muscle looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger. After a few weeks of lifting. Was that ever a concern in the back of your mind?
Or did you not? I think that way at all honestly, getting getting bulky from lifting weights, that was never and as part of my mindset and for me as a mindset as a runner like Iran, just so I can place like top five in my age and late age category. Like, I remember the first 10k race Iran. I think I've got, I want first place in my age group, which I was like, I didn't think I was capable of. So, That's when I just started you like competitive running. Like yeah, like I trained for
for 10K races. I think that was like, my favorite distance. But yeah, and then getting into more, like the fitness kickboxing. I just kind of like that work out because I was so used to doing like, hit training and it was a great Outlet, especially to, you know, get out anger because I worked a job that I didn't really like, so going to kick boxing after work, really helped. And then when I started to go,
go into weightlifting. It's funny cuz I All this cardio and kickboxing and stuff, but I've honestly like wanted to have like a muscular body and by that I know Bret Contreras the he has like a booty training program I guess. And I would look at his clients and I'm like I wish I can look like that but these girls like they lift heavy and that's something I didn't like know how to do or that was something that That I didn't know how the training program would go.
Like, yes. Like I think there was a time where I kind of stopped doing some cardio and I went to the gym, but I was in the gym for two hours and do you like every machine? Because I thought, that's what I had to do one, really? Yeah, when really it was and when really, I really need to have a training program though is really targeted to glutes and shoulders. Yeah, totally. I feel like, there's so much misinformation around. You know what's needed to build
up like the booty. Specifically, you know, I feel like there's just Everybody wants that that curve that curvature and you're not likely going to get it doing hours on end on the elliptical or the treadmill. But you put yourself on the squat rack. And that's where the magic happens. Mhm, yes. So what exactly happened with the running? So you said your knees were locking up. Like what? What kind of injuries specifically where you're dealing with their? Well, because I'm not a huge fan
of going to the doctor. So I, oh no, it's just me. Like, with my with my training as far as running goes. I just noticed. Like no matter and also no matter how much rest I took from running like my knees would just lock up and my training sessions were not even that effective.
Like I couldn't do the Sprints like I wanted to, I couldn't do the long-distance running like I had wanted to and like my running pace just started to slow down and for me that was like very discouraging because like I'm used to like running a mile like in seven minutes and so and so The I time like decrease and only because of this wear and tear of my knees, like it was just very discouraging.
So I just knew from there like I had to do like a different form of exercise and that's where I kind of found like Fitness kickboxing because you're still getting that cardio. And it was like and it was just like a different style workout that I really loved. Yeah. Any type of MMA or you know kicking sport or striking support, like it's amazing how intensive that really is that we've been doing MMA with our employees one. As a week here at the compound and it's crazy.
Like I, oh, I'll be going at it for, like, 30 seconds on the mat with somebody. Yeah, what? Like, I can do a leg workout, that takes two hours and I feel like I'm more whoops. In 20 seconds going all out with these striking Sports. Yes, the I definitely love was something I loved about. Kickboxing was definitely learning the kicks, especially like roundhouse cooks and just like feeling, so like powerful and strong, like ball hitting the bag and yeah, like it just makes you feel Powered.
And that's why it kind of really love that workout and not only that. Like, when I started to do kickboxing, I started to notice like my body, just like gradually, like slim down, like it was so crazy like I was getting more. I was getting more definition but definitely not growing muscle from that workout. It is pretty empowering to like have good quality control over your limbs. I feel like when you're pursuing doing kicking like you have to have good balance, you have to
good flexibility. Like you have to really get those those Honed in and I feel like doing a striking sport, like that's a worthwhile Endeavor for that. Plus you just feel more confident capable as someone that can be self-sufficient and protect oneself if you need to, you know, yes exactly. All right, so from there you get into the resistance training and you decided to jump into the world of, you know, figure competition and you reached out to me. But what in the world made you
want to go kedo? I mean, because we started working together as a 19 and when you're looking at all these magazines, In talking to other people that are competing and looking at the glute programs and whatnot. They're probably not doing Quito. Yes. So I actually was keto way before I started to do bodybuilding way before I started to even want to do any sort of weight training.
So my journey and Aikido it's really funny because I think I've started keto may be back in 2016 that was kind of like a rough start. So I started yukito a Oh and I didn't last for like 3 months. I think I lasted for two and a half months and I like couldn't do it anymore. I think one reason that maybe was you kito's I saw Drew Manning on dr. Oz of course.
And and I was like so like profound at like the keto diet because of course it's geared as a weight loss diet and it's like, oh so you can eat all the fats you want and not gain weight even though that's really not the truth. I learned that the hard way and so And so yeah, that's when I did he do. And when I attempted to do the diet in 2016, it was very hard for me to like, stop eating bread and like, honey and bananas. Only because that will, those Foods were something.
I was very used to, especially being a fitness kickboxing instructor, like I needed to have those cards to get me, like, through my day and to teach classes and everything. So, yeah, that was very hard. So then I decided, okay, next year, 2017. Let me try the key. No diet. Again, I remember I was actually getting out of a I was coming out of a trip from San Antonio, visiting a friend, and then I came back home and that's when I
started. And so, and I kind of did more research on what foods you should incorporate. So I really did that. I kind of did an overhaul of all the foods I was eating and I really kind of start to like having a bulletproof coffee. I was in love with almond butter. I think I still use a lot of vegetables at Time. Like I was seeing a lot of broccoli, spinach mixed greens and like bell peppers.
I tease. I didn't really have a lot of protein at first, so I think that was like something I really did not get a grasp of how much protein you needed on keto. And then I think I was in Quito for, like, a good three months. And then I remember this was like the light bulb effect that I had when I'm going through my day at home.
Home like doing chores. I go with meal prepping and I was doing laundry and then some just doing chores out, chores all day and so, I had a light bulb moment when I came into my room, to grab my clothes, and I was walking through the hallway and I'm just like, I feel so good right now. Like the way I'm breathing and like, my mental Clarity, like, it felt like I was breathing like fresh air, like from the
mountains, like, everything was. So crisp and it just dawned on me like I've been doing keto for three months and I have all this energy. It was something that I was not used to. And then and then I started to remember that feeling throughout my day and throughout the, like, the next piece to come and I started to realize, like, in the morning, I am like on my feet, like, in my kitchen, getting
myself ready and I'm not tired. Because I remember before, when I used to have carbs for breakfast, I remember just like sitting at my dining room table and drinking coffee and Just having no energy at all like being sluggish and then when I was doing keto for like, three months, that's when I realized, like I have so much energy in the world right now. So I think from that from that point on, I was like there's probably no turning back to eating carbs now.
Yeah, it's crazy. Like when you eat a bunch of carbs, like you just have this lethargy that just kind of follows you around everywhere, like the whole stereotypical post Thanksgiving meal food, coma thing, and And you know, there's definitely times now we're I'm tired like, oh, wake up tired. I'll be tired, but it's not like this extreme weariness that is just leaving me totally immobile
and give an incapacitated. Like I can, I can easily like flip a switch and get up and hustle, even if I'm lacking sleep, and I'm often times lacking sleep and I feel like so much that it just simply stemming from the fact that my body always had a pretty pretty good source of fuel, that happened to with stored body fat because it knows how to.
And I feel like if you're not Fan adapt, if you're not doing a ketogenic diet, all of that is just totally Greek to your body and you're just never going to perform, you know, from a longevity standpoint, nearly as well. Like, just simply having the mental sharpness is worth its weight in gold for me. Yes, exactly. I totally agree with you, Robert. What about your switch? You said, when you first started, you were doing fewer protein, or less protein and a
lot of veggies. And I feel like that's oftentimes the case I feel like people, you know, Art diving into Quito and they have this this association with vegetables being a really necessary thing for health. So that incorporate a lot of them and it seems as though as people stay keto, their vegetable intake, more or less? Kind of declines over the years. I was eating a lot of veggies.
When I first started and I'm not necessarily corner for like you don't have to be carnivore by any means, but it seems as though the longer you're doing keto for many people, they wind up eating less vegetation over time. It seems Yes, and really like when I started keto, like I just did this all on my own I never really even had like keto ketone strips or whatever I was trying just to get my body like I guess
fat adapted. And like I had no like tools to see like oh if I'm in ketosis or not. So I kind of just went over like how my body is feeling and as far as the vegetables go because you know, I was switching from the standard American diet and Taquito like I just kept veggies in because I Of course, everyone says, vegetables are good for you and of course you know, and I had a lot of like broccoli and
cheese. I think that was probably like I'm one of my favorite meals, but like I really didn't start turning into a carnivore or like, keto carnivore until I started doing bodybuilding, until I was actually coached by you Robert because of course. I mean like I honestly wish I had a coach when I started keto instead of going in there blindly. But you know, I've definitely learned so much being coached by you and And like hitting these true like keto macros. I think it's really helped me a
lot. As far as I keto journey goes. Well I think like appreciate that. First of all, but I think a lot of people when they're when they're attacking it from like a performance standpoint. Like you are, like if you're lifting, if your training if you're tracking, if you're getting your sleep, dialed in if you're getting your if you're using like you're lifting metrics as a proxy for Progress. You start playing around with
the vegetation and taken. It seems as though you know, any increase in vegetation doesn't really have a Corresponding increase in performance. Like I don't really feel any better when I'm eating more veggies, but what I do notice is that my digestion seems to be more irregular less consistent, less favorable when I have a lot of veggies.
And I'm assuming that's probably, you know, that may be different for people like if they're eating more veggies, you know, and a normal Baseline they're probably going to have more gut microbiome you know they're in place for fermenting that food but if you look at it from a performance standpoint from a calorie intake standpoint, It from a fuel standpoint. There's not a whole lot to gain from a bunch of veggies from like a performance standpoint.
It seems yes. And actually what actually made me like stop eating veggies is that I actually started doing egg fast and so that like make fast is for the general. Rule is you're supposed to just have, you know an equal ratio of like a fat source to two eggs. Those typically like my whole day, I was just eating You know, ba butter, a little bit of cheese and some eggs, I think doing egg fast like that. Help me like, stop eating vegetables.
And I just realized like it's like not having vegetables in my diet, like my digestion was absolutely fine and then I think doing an egg pass, just kind of helped me be and the deeper state of ketosis because I had crazy energy that I had felt in a while and like my mental Clarity was like insane. So I think it just, you know, push me. I'm more into ketosis more. And you know, and my energy levels were, of course, you know, they were still really
good. Yeah, I think egg fact, I think you introduce me the egg fast honestly, I feel like I never really done one prior to talking to you about it and then I gave it a shot and from a from a volumizing your food standpoint and like if you're doing a bunch of scrambled eggs like you can get a whole bunch of volume on your plate for yes whole lot of calories. So from a, you know, competition prep standpoint when calories are low, there towards the end.
If you want to make a You significant portion of your calories come from scrambled egg. That's probably the best way to get a bunch of volume in and your body's going to assimilate that egg nutrition a lot better than it would from the same amount of volume coming from, you know, big salad or something? Yeah, exactly. In fact, I think that was like one of the main differences between my first competition prep, in my second year of competing. I remember the first competition prep I did.
I was eating a lot of big salads and stuff and My digestion was all over the place and then the second year of my competition prep, I was doing more of like, keto carnivore, you know, eating eggs. I was eating a lot of ground beef actually, and I just found that my stomach did so much better. Yeah, I'm definitely kind of like, a ground beef and eggs kind of guy when it comes to
like the staple of my nutrition. And then from there, I add or subtract, you know, keto brick butter, heavy cream, occasionally some veggies if I want to just mix it up but I don't really do that from a performance standpoint, but Making ground beef and eggs. Pretty much. The staple has always worked really well for me. Yes, exactly. I completely agree with you there Robert. So I guess your spreadsheet pulled up, I kind of want to get a listener some context.
So we started this last prep on 1228 of 2020 and you were coming in at 137 pounds in and you were starting your, we actually started, increasing your cash for bit. So you started at about 2000 calories and then we increased you up to looks like 2420 yet 2400, I think is where it peaked and then we started, I guess we technically started like that whole time. There was trying to figure out what your true maintenance intake is kind of getting your higher caloric intake, dialed in.
And then we started your true true prep on 3121. So, March 1st of last of, yeah, last year. And you were 133 pounds at that point. And we started at 2365 on the couch.
He's, you know, about eight percent of calories, come from fat and then we slowly chip that away until showed a. And your first show was on 813 you've weighed in at 1:17 on show day then and your calories were like, you know, 1350 you had a real feat of 1700. So your average for the week was about 1,400 calories and then you did a couple shows yet another show on 8:28 and that was weighing of 119. And let's see here. That was pretty much that was your last show, right? The one on 8:20.
Yeah, I did, I did another show in September light in 2021. I did at all three shows so my last show should have been in late September. Okay. Do you happen to remember the date on that one? Um, cause I wanna say it was like one of the last 925, that's what it was. Yeah. Yeah. The light. Yeah. One of the last weekend's in September and what's crazy. Is that, okay? So that first show you weighed in at 17 and your average intake
was 1,400 calories. Counted the briefie your second show was two weeks later, you weighed 119 and your average intake was 1341. And then few weeks go by the whole time, we're doing refeeds, keto refeeds, and then your show in September 1925, you weighed 112 pounds and then from here. Yeah. So you lost quite a bit, the felt like the book. So my book, You are the the the model modeling, the bikini shots and those photos were taken at which of those shows. Do you remember the last one in
September? Okay, so that was when you were the lightest and that was a stage weight of 112 pounds. And with the refeed you're right at about 1,300 calories as it averages out at that point, like your refeed was 1759 calories and then your intake was like 12:00. So it averages out your roughly about 1,300 calories which is pretty much the To take any of my clients and then and that's
when it gets interesting. So this is where I really want to kind of conversation because we wanted to do, I think you mostly want to do a just really, really slow, controlled reverse diet. And when it comes to reverse dieting, like some, there's like two trains of thought. So, something like she, I guess they're straight change of thought. Three trains of thought. Some people just want to say screw it all and then eat
whatever. And that doesn't really go over too well like they put on a bunch of body fat. They Lose that conditioning really, really quickly. And they, oftentimes have a negative rebound effect. They gained more weight than they were when they started the prep. It just not a pretty picture. That's what happened to me. My first show, I had a bunch of eating disorders that develop from that's just not good.
And then other people, the other two trains of thought are like, having a strategic reverse diet, and most people want to kind of return to some degree of normalcy soon. They've been prepping for a while. They've been tracking the macros tracking their training, Everything dialed in. They want to return to more time, and intuitive approach, and they're willing to sacrifice some conditioning and some definition to return to that degree of normalcy sooner, rather than later.
So, we'll be a little bit more aggressive with the reverse you were of the opposite opinion and that you wanted to be, you wanted to retain that conditioning as long as possible but still increase in calories that you're training, wouldn't be hindered really and you were fine to continue to track and keep things down. Old in Rat, the entire reverse, which a lot of people are not but you like that style of that lifestyle. So it worked really well.
I don't want to steal your thunder here because I want you to dive into this. But okay, what's interesting? Just from a high level for people, listening is at your show date on 925 you wait 112 pounds from there. We showed increase in calories, so your average intake then was you know, 1300 calories. Once you factor in the refeed and then we only increased calories from that.
Point, however, your weight continue to drop, I'm trying to find your lowest weights in the reverse that and it's looking like it was remember off the top your head. I want to say, I think that was like, one time where I weighed myself and I was like, maybe like 105. Like yeah, like way below like 110 like yeah, like 107 108 or something like that. There's a 10-4 on 1228 you would 104. Yeah, like 28, Hmm, which is
crazy. I mean like when you start looking at in the laws of thermodynamics calories in calories out, energy balance, all that stuff. Like we mean, your superstructure like you have a job, you have, you know, like a standard, you know, clock in clock out of time. You have your cardio that you're tracking every training that you're tracking and we are only increase in calories and from 925 when you were eating around 1300 and Wade, 112 on that 12:28 when you 104 your average
intake. At that point is almost 1,900 calories. So, a pretty significant increase in calories. Let yet you've reached your lowest weight, which is pretty freaking crazy. Mmm. Yeah. Like I don't even know like how that happened to be honest with you. Yeah, because and I think it's because I think the pressure was just off of, you know, me being so hyper-focused on my physique. I think something that really did help us that ice did start a new job.
And I just knew like all my focus is going to have to go towards this job because I really want to do well and I really want to get promoted. I'm still working on getting promoted and so I just knew that like all my thinking and my and my focus had to go towards my new job. It's right. And I think that really kind of took off a lot of pressure from me from, you know, looking myself in the mirror and be like Oh I'm Eileen enough in my stage
ready or whatever. As long as I as far as my journey in bodybuilding goes, while I was in my reverse dieting phase as long, I just checked the box as long as I got enough sleep, as long as I was, you know, tracking my meals and meal prepping. And as long as I got, My workouts in like I was happy like those were the three things that I just need to check off every day.
Just to make my reverse diet, you know, just to be successful, my reverse diet and as long as I was okay with getting those three things in my focus was on my new job. But I think you know, starting a new job that really just help me with my reverse dieting and as far as the weight loss, go like I don't know, maybe because I was using my brain for like the
first time. Think I'm thinking like my brain probably pick up a lot of calories like has to do a lot of thinking about my new job and and yeah and it's funny how my weight drops because even my coach I mean she took out cardio from my training session. So all I was doing was, you know, resistance training, all he was doing was weightlifting and I felt and after my last show was weird, because I felt really strong and really recovered.
So I mean, every week, I had PRS, I mean, Yeah, like I was lifting heavy, but like my weight was still dropping, but in my head I'm just like, I'm just like, I didn't really think too much of it because I was increasing calories. So, like I don't know, like, I don't know what kind of, I don't know what kind of led to my B losing weight, but I think probably the main part is because, like, I wasn't pressured to look a certain way as far as my intimacy goes.
Yeah, I would imagine your body's flushing out some inflammation weights. No, some water retention, simply from all the stress and anxiety that worrying about your physique can bring on. You know, if you remove the cardio, you're losing that form of expenditure but then you're probably able to pour more into your weight training. So you're burning probably more calories than plus, you're getting more calories in, you know, from the increase in food
in the macros. So you're probably training with a higher degree of intensity. But yeah, it was just, it was really interesting to watch that unfold because most people, they finish a prep and they've been just obsessing About macros and tracking, and training for months.
So they just kind of have this, screw it mentality and they eat everything inside that only have a plan, but you are so hyper focused on something, totally outside of bodybuilding is that, you know, you were kind of just checking the boxes when it came to body building which I think was, you know, great. It worked in your favor because you weren't obsessing about it, which made your natural hunger cues, probably more legitimate as opposed to having this Feeding Frenzy mentality that
comes with obsessing over food. And so you're able to just let your body take what you were giving it make the most of it. And lo and behold, you kept leaning out despite the steady increase in calories, which is not the norm but awesome that it happened so much. So the point that when I do my next prep, I'm going to also adopt this ridiculously slow, reverse diet that you did and honestly, like it was slow, but we, let's see here. So we were increase in calories
and there were times. Times. We were only increase in like five grams of protein a week. Sometimes we would do like a biweekly adjustment. But I mean, your body responded perfectly to it. Like you were losing weight. You didn't start actually gaining weight until probably January. Yeah, I guess. Probably about January mid-January. Later January started, slowly
moving the other direction. But how many weeks are you post-show now I want to say, like, like 40, it's going to be 49, so it's almost gonna be like one year since my last show. Yeah. Which is crazy. And your current intake is one I'm sorry you were starting to cut out there a little Robert. Your current caloric intake is Nat. What do we have you at this week? Oh 2575 2575 and your weight.
Now you're at 1:30 now roughly which is still about seven pounds under what you started the prep and so you're eating more your way and less but your composition is significantly improved, you've got more lean tissue. One thing that I think is truly awesome with the ketogenic prep that I don't really see. Happening so much with traditional prep protocols is that as calories are dropping and your training and your trying to maintain the same type of overall volume and attend to that.
Your you did in the offseason, you never really lost any strength. And that's been the case with me. What I'm doing my prep, that's been the case with all my other clients. It definitely gets harder to train, you know, with that degree of intensity when calories and lower but it's not like your top deadlift Max drops in half.
It's not like your Losing a lot of real strength and I feel like because of that you're able to reserve that lean tissue much better and then when you do Transition back into reverse diet with the focus of building more muscle, you're not having to make up for lost ground. Like you pretty much just start right? Where you left off.
Yeah, that's very true. In fact, I was so surprised during this second prep that I had like, I could not believe like how many PR's I was still doing, even up until showed a like it was so crazy. And yes, like some days were hard, like, I still had days where I would go into the gym and grit my teeth and get the workout done, but it wasn't like, I was rushing myself and be like, oh my gosh, hurry up for this workout to get done. It was more.
So I was still meant We and focused like in the zone and was still, you know, pushing myself. They're all my workouts to get these quality Lipson and yeah, like I have to, I definitely do agree with you there. Robert like definitely like
doing. I mean, I've never done any sort of bodybuilding protocol with like the standard American diet or anything like that, but definitely like with keto, like my performance in the gym, never hindered while I was in prep, what about your overall relationship? And ship with food. I feel like that's something that people oftentimes struggle with, like, how did, how did you adopt a healthy relationship with food throughout your prep? Like, was that something that came pretty easily?
It was their challenge of points there. Honestly because I'm not going to pay that easy but I want to say the dieting phase and calm prep. I want to say it's easy to stay on track only because you have like a time that like deadlines and then you're always constantly looking at your body. You're always constantly thinking like am I, you know, am I going to be stage ready?
So I feel like that's easy but even like, going through my prep until 2021 even before I stepped on stage for my first show, And I just remembered, you know, the feeling of being hungry, and I just remembered like Marjorie, The Works. Not done even after this competition season because I
have to reverse diet. And so, I already knew that the reverse side was going to be the hard part because, of course, my first set of competitions was back in 2019, and after my first year competing, like, Robert like you had mentioned before, like, after your first show, you had, you kept been binge eating and you felt like you Q like developed a like eating
disorder. I fell into that same boat to after my first year of competing, like like I know how that feels to have that uncontrollable sense of hunger and like you're just eating so much food, but the hunger won't stop. So I just felt I learned so much from failing. My first reverse diet to wear the second time around. Like that's why I kind of wanted to do a slow approach because I've never successfully
completed a reverse dieting. For me as an athlete, especially since I want to do bodybuilding for, I don't know for how many years, but I definitely want to keep going in the sport. It was important for me to kind of gather the data my reverse diet. Because how do I not know, like what my maintenance is like, how do I not know? Like, like 0, at this point of calories, I felt my Hunger cues come back. Like I don't, I didn't have the data to kind of, like, back myself up.
So, that's so definitely this time. Around, that's why it was so on point. And so on track just so I can have this data and so I can better myself, you know, within the years of bodybuilding that I do. Yeah, 100% agree. I feel like, you know, having that data at your fingertips is super empowering and I feel like, you know, looking at the the prep the show day is like, the finish line is just not a
healthy thing in general. Like if you look at it rather through the lens of, you know, you're at the peak of a mountain but you still have to climb down the mountain and get back home like that's probably the best way to look. But if you don't have that mentality, you're going to cross that Finish Line. You're going to think everything's, okay. And you're going to screw yourself over. Whereas, if you have that, you know, Mountaintop approach where like you're climbing up the
mountain, that's your prep. You have the show day, that's the peak. And you slowly go down off the mountain and not Rick's risk. Jumping off a cliff, you're probably going to be way better off for the Long Haul. Yes, I totally agree with you there, Robert. I mean, definitely, after just like bailing. My first reverse diet, like, I learned, you know, I completely learned from all my mistakes this time around.
So I just knew like, even while I was in competition season, I just kept telling myself like the work is not over, just because you get just because you're done with your show, definitely the reverse diet. I feel like that's where most bodybuilders probably do lose themselves because You know, there is a thing called post-show blues. And you in there is all suddenly, you know, not that dedicated time frame to look, you know, show ready.
And I feel like this the improvement season is where that can make or break you as a bodybuilding athlete.
Yeah, 100% exactly. In the day like you want it to be a healthy sport, you want it to be a lifestyle you want to keep getting better with every year that passes and if you like come out of the show and then you have all these you know - relationships with food disorder Tendencies you let yourself blow up, put on a bunch of unnecessary body fat, you screw your metabolic rate, your hormones, etc, etc. What could be a really healthy sport now becomes a sense of,
you know, not health. I mean, like you're literally it becomes a sense of demise to you, in the sense in the sense that your brain screwed up. Your hormones are screwed up your relationship of food screwed up and you've just thrown away a great opportunity to become better and likely to becoming worse for. And if you can bypass all that, by simply Having some structure in the offseason. Post-show, you're going to be way way better form.
Yeah, and I completely agree with you there, Robert. I mean, yeah. Because even just like failing, my diverse diet during my after my first year of competing like I just after gaining like so much weight and everything, like even I would look at myself in the gym, I had I actually like develop some body dysmorphia. And I really thought I was like going to developed or have developed an eating disorder. It was so scary when I failed that reverse diet the first
time. Like, if I ever needed like discipline like man, it was during that first field reverse diet. It was like, I had to, like fight for every inch of discipline that I had to, like, not overeating to not become, like a victim towards, like, my Hunger signals and everything. And I remember when I was constantly feeling my reverse diet, and just feeling hungry, and just being like, Like, well f it, well, let's, let's see, whatever I want and I remember doing that enough days to wear.
Like I think it would like finally caught up with me and I'm just like, sitting in my kitchen like, just eating, you know, like peanut butter with like sausage or whatever, just eating whatever and it just dawned on me. Like, I'm not hungry, but for some reason, I just kept eating it and that feeling for me was so scary. Like I just felt so out of control and From that point on, I knew it wasn't a hunger issue but it was more of like a like a
mental issue at some point. So for some reason, like hormones were off and, you know, and I think something I learned from that day was like, calories is not the issue. I think it was just not getting enough rest and not optimizing, you know, sleep and rest and doing the cardio that you're supposed to do. Because the first time when I feel my reverse diet, I remember like doing Extra cardio
sessions. I remember I told my coach that and she got so mad at me and it was like, Another like light bulb effect happened there and it was like, I was not giving my body rest. I was not giving it sleep when it needed to. So I so I kind of took that as a lesson and took that into a competition prep, which, you know, I listen to my body. I gave myself extra sleep. I gave myself rest and even you know, still optimized my sleep
and rest days. During this reverse side that I'm doing and everything, just worked better. I was able to, you know, control my hunger and I was able to, you know, PR my workouts only because I was really prioritizing sleep and rest this time around. Yeah, I think making sure that your sleep styled in and that you're truly, you know, having periods of time where you're in a parasympathetic State. Because I mean when you're in a deficit and you're in a prep like that, that's very taxing on
the body. So like if you're going hard in that sector of your life, you have to, you know, make up and compensate in other ways and really optimizing sleep. Is a is a pretty tangible win in order to do that but you made one of the really good point and that's that, you know, your first show you went off the rails, your second show you had much more control and I feel like that holds true with a lot
of people. Like, when you do your first show, you have no perspective because you've done it before. And that fear, the unknown screws with your head and your that much more likely to go off the deep end. Whereas, and because of that, a lot of people know don't ever do a second show, because it's only a - and Their life.
But after you've done the first show and you start doing the next prep in the next prep, like you gain more prospectively to prep that you go through and then just becomes more familiar to you and then you don't really tend to operate on The Fringe extremes because you know, it's not necessary to do so and you're able to just make the entire process that much more enjoyable to begin with. Yes, yeah, I definitely agree
with you there. I remember like when I was failing, my reverse diet that was, that was when 2020 happened and, you know, everyone's like, you know, I get home. I hear old stories like, you know people you know, put on weight and everything else on here.
Here I am like, you know, really just trying to like hold my life together but this reverse diet and doing my workouts, indoors, at my home gym and like really in 2020, I think that's when I started listening to other bodybuilding podcast and start looking at other ICB bikini pros and how they do their preps, because shows were still going on. So, you know, and since you know, my head was still in my reverse side, I started to look into different podcasts.
One podcast I really loved is the bikini in the brain podcast, which is by coach, Adam Bonilla and, and Ashley caught wasser there from Team Elite physiques. But I mean, there are saying the same stuff that you're saying Robert that like, you know, they have athletes that come out of their first show and because they don't have that expectation of reverse diet, they're going to say, they're going to give every excuse in the world saying, bodybuilding ruin their life and now they hate the
sport. They hate exercise. The you know, they can't get back to eating healthy. It's because, you know, you know, you don't have that mindset of being, you know, like the work is not done just because you get off show like you have to have like you you have to have a plan after, you know, after your show. So that way you're still successful and you can still compete after. Yeah, I think, I think it's really important to just never have enough switch.
Yes, there's times at which you're going really hardcore, your track and everything to the T. And you know, you've got a very specific Date in mind for peeking you know for like a competition for instance but that doesn't mean that there's ever an off switch to that in its entirety like you're never ideally you know for going all training all healthy eating habits, like you don't want to just totally go off the deep end.
And I feel like, you know, I don't remember who I heard his friend but they said rather than it being like a, an on-off switch think of it like a dimmer switch where you're scaling. It's like on a sliding scale to the degree of intensity, you're targeting with things and if you do it that way, if Is never an off switch. You're still building your day-to-day, you know, function off of the healthy habits that you've built that have led to the success.
You've seen thus far with the sport and if you're able to dim that switches opposed to turning it off, you're likely going to retain some degree of these healthy habits and that that will likely bode well for making sure that you don't, you know, go off on an extreme and that that in itself makes us much more sustainable and I feel like that should be the key with
anything. Because you don't ever want it to be a - like, I mean, if it becomes a negative in your life than what's the point, you know, um, guys especially, you know, if you still want to be, you know, competing and making those improvements to get better. Like I know I have a big goal to you to be on the national show National stage next year, for the NPC. So, you know, for me, like I'm still very much like, on in this Improvement Season.
I don't like to call the Improvement Season offseason only because, you know, Things really like turned off, like I feel like I'm still eating the same Foods on prep, but just in bigger volume and plus like I can have a little bit more like fun foods like, you know, different nut Butters and I can have like higher cuts of protein. You know, such as like chicken, thighs and I can have Salman
again. So, pretty much like just because, you know, you're in a caloric Surplus, doesn't mean you can eat whatever you want that. You know, I'm still eating the same foods like I am on prep, but just in bigger portions. Yeah, I think that's That's huge to like you don't ever have to sacrifice the types of foods your for me with a you know like a traditional approach, like a traditional carb road that approach.
Like, if the pending on they're doing flexible dieting or not, but a lot of them will just, you know, do a super clean bro, diet and then skip out on all those junk foods, but then, when the show is over, they feel deprived of those Foods, they bring them back in excess. If you're doing a flexible dieting approaching, you're eating more of those junk Foods because you're working in them into your mouth. Crows. Then it's probably not the most nutrient-dense source of food to be consuming.
Why in the context of a deficit, which is not likely optimal with the ketogenic approach. You're eating the most nutrient-dense foods, and ideally becomes a lifestyle for you. So you don't feel like you're sacrificing it all by not having the cupcakes and Pop-Tarts. And then when the show is over, you don't feel like you've deprived yourself by not having those so you don't really need to introduce him again. And you just continue to eat the foods that, you know, your body responsibility.
Well, to you just, you know, moderate the intake, exactly. I think, definitely something, this go around. Since I've kind of like move my eating habits to more. Keto, carnivore approach was the key word here, nutrient-dense Foods because now that I am, I'm not eating any like, processed foods. In fact, I don't even have foods that have like certain like gums in there. Like like I know like my heavy whipping cream had like agile and gum in there. I got rid of that, I found a
better brand. But even foods with additives like that, it's so crazy how like it can make you like addictive to a certain food. But, you know, since I've kind of adopted a more ketogenic carnivore approach. When I was doing bodybuilding, I no longer really have cravings for like Oreos or Pop-Tarts or ice cream or anything like that.
It's more. So like I have a craving for like a steak and I think just eating like Giant dense foods is definitely helping me in my lifestyle overall, which will only lead to, like, longevity. Like I know when I go older, I don't know how long I'll be doing bodybuilding, but, you know, as I get older and my 60s, and 70s, or whatever, like, I know that like, my organs will be fine because I'm not pumping my body with all these food additives.
Well, I've got no doubt that you'll keep getting better. I mean every should have seen you in been able to A role in like you look better. Every single time. I step onstage. You're super detail. Toying with your training with your nutrition. So I've got no reason to believe you won't keep getting better. So, I hope you're stepping on stage when you're, you know, 78
years old and still kicking. Yeah, I mean, just like I like I really don't know how long they'll be doing bodybuilding, but right now, like the definitely like the short-term goal right now is just to get myself on the national stage and like, just even the thought of me, going to Nationals because last year, it was funny because on that last show I did in September. I remember like, one of the last things I kind of yelled out to my family. As we're, like, driving to the venue.
I was like trying to get some rest, and like, everyone's feeling, like, talk in the car, whatever. I'm just like, I just need to close my eyes. Like, I'm trying to get nasty qualified here and lo and behold on that last show. I actually did become nationally
qualified. So, I mean, if I really did want to do National show, I could do it this year, but I really chose to stay in my improvement season, of course, to know build a little bit little bit more because honestly when I see these girls get on the national stage For bikini, it's like holy
crap. Like, you have to look the part of an ifbb Pro and honestly, I don't think my body's quite there yet, but I feel like with all the improvements I've been doing so far, like, I will get there for next year. But the only. So, the thing, how the NPC works is that once you Nashi qualify, I think it your, your National qualification only lasts for like that year in the upcoming
year. So next year, Have to become nationally qualified again which I think I will be if I got nasty qualified with the physique I had last year. So I just have to become nationally qualified again and then I can get onto the national state. Yeah that's honestly one of my biggest frustrations with many of these federation's. Like if you do a pro qualifying show you earn a pro card. You become nationally qualified be able to compete at the national level.
They put this time stipulation on there, but oftentimes it's within such a short window of time that competitors are, you know, pretty much A push to compete again within 12 months. Yeah. And that's not really optimal if you're trying to have a building phase, especially if your
natural competitive. Like, if you're a natural athlete, and you just spent six months prepping and you got to do a reverse dyin, I mean there's no time at all to build before you get it started again to maintain that window of qualifications. So I wish Federation start broadening vent a bit more but who knows. I'm in a lot of these federation's like the NPC.
I mean a lot of those competitors are not natural so they're able to Kind of shorten those windows by, you know, edition of performance-enhancing drugs. But you know for people that do want to keep things natural and you know make this a healthy sport from a longevity standpoint you really need more time.
Yeah and I really do see that especially when I do watch these ifbb bikini Pros like try to qualify for the Olympia which it kind of like raise my eyebrows a little bit like being an amateur in the sport and I see all these iife Pros like they're competing almost Be weaker, like, almost like every two, to three weeks, they have a show. And I like, always felt like, why are they competing so much? And it's because they have to
qualify. Let's see if you don't because I think one of the ways you can for sure qualify to get into the Olympia is if you if you place first in the show, well, there's other and I think this year, they have it. So, there's point. So I think, I think if you place like first or like first, second third, you get Olympia qualification point. So, Actually all of these girls
they kind of know. They're competing like five six times a year just to get those points just so they can qualify for Olympia. But I've seen some really smart pros and there's you know, there's one pro that I follow her name's Morgan dead and Miller and she actually qualified for the oh last year. So I'm not mistaken. She got top 10 and everyone was so excited for her and I think
she did the Arnold as well. And then I think after the Arnold's this year, I'm not sure if this is correct or not but she said she wouldn't be competing in the 0 because she want to work on her physique and I think Lauren Dan Miller was one of the IP Pros. I did follow a lot during 2020 as far as her competition season goes and like I honestly like I
like how she attacks her. Her overall training, like not just called print but also you know, her Improvement Season everything I think she's, I think she's very balanced and she has she has an awareness of her body of When it needs rest and you know you know, when needs food and everything like
that. And and the fact that she's actually taking like the rest of your office, not cooking the, oh, this year, was I found that to be, you know, I kind of look up to her for that because like she knows because she knows that she wants to like be up there, like, in the top five for bikini Olympia. I just like, I know she wants it, so she's gonna like, you know, take the time off and develop like to develop. To be better on stage for the oh
the next time. So, I mean, I really do commend her for that for taking the year off because everyone thought she
was going to do it again. But yeah, I mean like, like you said Robert unfortunately with NPC and I Phoebe there's so many people that do the Peds and steroids and like I feel like for for the bikini Pros I can tell which girls are Juiced or not and it's and it's so funny when I see like the like the natural girls when they go up there and they do place like when they do get like a first place or they Place like top three because I know like, okay, like it is possible but you have
to do the, you have to do the work in your improvement season to get there. Yeah. 100%. And I feel like it's admirable that people at that high level are taking that time off me and vocal about it because I feel like more people need to hear that for sure. Because there's just so much ignorance around what is and is not possible naturally on both sides of the spectrum. Like like a lot of people are disillusioned to the point of thinking that you know the elite.
Level mr. Olympia bodybuilder natural which is not the case, but on the same Spectrum are on the opposite of the same Spectrum. There's a lot of people out there that assume that in order to have any muscles at all, you got to be taking steroids, which is also not the case at all. So that's why I'm so passionate about the sport or natural bodybuilding, as a whole, like really pushing your body's natural capability to see what it's capable of from a physical
standpoint. But also from a mental standpoint to maintain that degree of consistency and discipline. It's just, it's just awesome. So for people like you that are doing it naturally that are doing it right? They're doing it with a proper diets. Proper building phase proper cutting phase. It's just awesome for me to be able to have the opportunity to work with you. And I've always said this. But with my competitive clients, you know, I watch you go through all these changes.
I want you go to the mental struggles, the mental highs, the mental lows, and when you do that, it's just it's just so cool. Like seeing people faced with adversity, and how they respond in the face of that. Adversity is one of the most fulfilling things that I've ever had the opportunity. Opportunity to, you know, be a part of so I can't thank you enough for letting me be your coach for as long as you have. I'm honored to do it incredible
athlete. You've looked better with every time you stepped on stage and I'm just super excited for what the future holds for, you know. Well, you're welcome Robert. Yeah. And it was great to, you know, have you as a coach? I know I knew like, once I got into bodybuilding, especially since I was keto before bodybuilding, like I just knew I needed to have someone in my corner so you know, to help back me up with a ketone.
Like approach to bodybuilding and so you know definitely doing my research and then seeing you Robert since Lee you know you compete. I think but I mean like for me like having coaches that compete is important because it means you know, they're still there still knowledgeable, the sport and all the recent changes and everything and you know and plus like when I have a leader that can actually like does like does the job themselves like bodybuilding compete?
Like that's something that you know I can look forward to and you know, Roberts been great to have you as a coach as well. Well, I know by know before you had mentioned to me, you know, if it if if you're still like necessary in my life, even after my even during this improvement season, because I know you told me, like we won't be like, tweaking macros as much.
And of course, like I still feel like I need you as a coach Robert because definitely like there's not a lot of people around me that I can like share and relate all my thoughts to. So definitely having someone in my corner where I can talk. You know, anything in the keto diet or any changes that I'm experiencing in this improvement season, if I can share that with someone and get feedback. It's great.
So I definitely still love having you as a coach Robert, I certainly appreciate that love having you as a client and I'm excited because we both be prepping at the same time next year. So so that'll be. That'll be pretty intense. Yeah, it'll be good. Marjorie will where do people go to find out? More about you? Follow along? Watch the prep unfold. Watch the building Faison. Fold, just get more information on you and general. Okay, that's a great question Robert.
So I do have a public Instagram page so it's pronounced. It's bacon, but it's spelled differently. So it's going to be itz underscore be a 3 C 0 n underscore. Can I have bacon in there somewhere? Yeah. Exactly like yeah, because I did have like a I did have a private Facebook page but I change. I got a public one since I You did last year to kind of like showcase my my journey in bodybuilding and definitely with this page.
I definitely wanted to showcase the reverse dieting phase because again it's it's a phase where not a lot of people. See, I feel like with the 99% in general population, not a lot of people know about, you know, the reverse diet or what happens to a competitor like after they compete, you know.
So I feel like if I can provide this background information this knowledge, you know, not Thing is about, you know, being lean and all the Glam but you have to put the work in the background order to really Shine On Stage. Totally agree and I learn a lot in working with you like how your body is responding to this particular type of reverse diet going as slow as we have. That's exactly how I'm going to implement my future, reverse diet in the light of what I've learned in coaching you.
So yeah, I think the reverse that portion of the fate of the prep, you know, people need to have more awareness there. They need to learn more about that. And I've referenced you on multiple podcast multiple Communications with other clients because you've done it,
right? Your body has responded correctly and you're a perfect Testament to what happens when you do. Have some degree of you know, strategy, post-show post cut and I feel like everybody should have been a bit would benefit from that. So thank you for jumping on the podcast. Thank you for letting me use you as an example. And I'm just excited to keep working with you and see how the next prep turns out Marjorie. So keep killing it, and keep staying the Savage. You are Are.
All right, thanks so much Robert for having me. You had a pleasure talking on your podcast. You bet take care.