Competing in Bodybuilding As A Natural Athlete

Talk to me about your competitive history because you're like a freaking rock star. You're three time world champ. So it's 2016 eight and then 21. You know, I've been competing in Oregon. That's the only place I've lived and competed, and in Oregon, NPC is huge and that's the only thing I knew of. So I just competed just for the heck of it. And then I think in 2015 somebody said, hey, you should compete naturally, and I thought, what's that mean? I looked it up and I found the WNBF.

That's the first year that I competed with the WNBF and it's just been heaven ever since then. Feel like the level of conditioning for the natural athletes at that world's competition is far and above that of the conditioning. And just like the like the truly dense muscle of those in the IFBB league. Their bodies are just trashed out and they just can't. They don't function like they used to because they put so much wear and tear on it. And we are live.

Lisa, how are you today? I am good. Thanks, Robert. How are you? I'm good, I'm good. It's been. When was the last time we saw each other? Was it Aaron's show? I think so. It's been almost almost a year it seems. That's a lot. You get anything in the pipeline, you're a promoter. This would be your first year promoting, right? It's my first year promoting in Portland, the very first WNBF in Portland and Natural Show in Portland. So I'm pretty excited.

It's going to be September 20th right here in a little place called Multnomah Village. So excited. Not a lot of entries yet, so a little nervous about that. But the idea this year is just getting the word out that there is a natural federation, everybody's welcome, so we'll see how. I'm, I'm super excited for you. And what's you it's crazy is you're gonna be judging my show a week later. So like, I don't know how you're gonna, you're gonna be so sleep deprived and ready for a nap

after all this. Well, I know. And then you volunteered. You said that you would show up for my show and I totally appreciate that.

However, your show is the week after mine and so I thought Nah, not a good idea on your part. But thank you. I really appreciate the offer. Oh, for sure, for sure. I definitely want to talk about the show, promoting and all all of that good stuff. What made you, you know, want to do that? But before we even touch on that, talk to me about your competitive history because you're like a freaking rock star. You're three time world champ. Yes, I got lucky three times.

So you know, I've been competing in Oregon. That's the only place I've lived and competed. And in Oregon, NPC is huge and that's the only thing I knew of. So I just competed just for the heck of it. And then I think in 2015, somebody said, hey, you should compete naturally. And I thought, what's that mean? So I googled it, I looked it up and I found the WNBF and I reached out to John Nickerson, another promoter from the Northwest, and I said, hey, can you tell me more about it?

And so he we met and he said, OK, you're going to do this show, this show and this show. And I said, OK. And so that was in 2016. I did a show in April, got my pro card, luckily. Then I went to Sacramento and competed there as a pro so that I could compete at Worlds in LA that year in 2016 as a pro. So I just followed my directions. He said, do this and I said, OK. And then that's the first year that I competed with the WNBA, and it's just been heaven ever since then.

It's been fun, it's been awesome. And did you, did you win Worlds that first year? I did. I was, you know, like I said, you just never know who's going to show up. So you show up with the best package you can and everything falls into place at that time. But you know, just that one particular day at that hour that I was on stage, I was the lucky 1 to be chosen. So you know you put in the work. Just see what happens. So what years were was it that you that you won your 3 worlds titles?

So it's 2016, eighteen and then 21. Nice, nice. And you competed again in 23 because you and I were backstage together. Yes, I did. So I competed every year. Didn't win every year. I mean, but you know, placed I think top three for those years. So 23 I placed, I was second, and then in 24 was my last year, I was third. And so, you know, when it goes first, second, third, you kind of think maybe it's time for me to get out.

But it's been so great meeting all the people, seeing and having conversations with you backstage. That was really fun. And I think who was with us, Russ? Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, I mean, we were waiting in line forever for something and so we just started conversation, which was really good and I'm so glad I met you 'cause now we get to see each other at different events, so. I know, I know. MM Hmm. What were you doing bodybuilding in the NPC prior to going into the Natural Federation?

Yeah, I was. I was only a bodybuilder back in the day when I started. I think it was in the late 90s. There was only woman's bodybuilding. That's all there was. So you went to a bodybuilding show, There were men bodybuilders and female bodybuilders and that was it. No bikini, no figure, no nothing. So I started as a bodybuilder and just stayed. I tried Fit Body one year. Epic fail. Epic fail. One thing with the high heels. Oh my goodness, I'm so.

I'm so happy that I stood upright the whole time. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that didn't work for me. So just a bodybuilder? What was your motivation for for getting into the sport to begin with? Like how old were you when you started lifting weights? You know, I was active when I was younger and I think I played college sports. But then after college, you know how you just kind of fall off the fitness wagon, right? Everybody just kind of gets a

life, gets a job. And so I was getting these really awful migraine headaches like almost 2, three times a

month, and it would just knock me out completely. So one day I was like, I need to get some air. So I started walking around outside and it kind of went away. So then I thought, well, maybe I just need to keep moving. And then I joined a gym and I just started small little exercise things and I haven't had a migraine since mid 90s I think. And then a friend of mine was doing a show, so I went to watch and I just sat there and went, oh, I so wanna do this.

And I think my first show was 1996 and I, I was £130 to start off with. And I think I dieted down to 108. People were calling my mom and saying what's wrong with her? I think she's sick. So, and then after that, you know, you just kind of, so this is my story too, is that after you compete, you gain lots of weight and then you compete again, you lose lots of weight, then you do this and this and it's so hard on the body.

And after my when I turned 40 or so, I just said, you know what, I'm not going to do this anymore. So I just kind of hover now at the at this weight or I'm at comfortable. So you were never like overweight before competing, right? Like that was never your story. I was a kind of when I was in college I so I'm 53 and I weighed 150 lbs, which is not obesely overweight, but it was chunky. I would call it chunky in that time.

And then when I started work and I just got, I lost weight because I would get sick all the time. I, I'm a school teacher. I was a school teacher. So those kids bring everything into the room and I would get sick all the time. So I lost some weight there, but pretty much stayed at about 130, which is not thin and I wasn't fit. But starting that exercise program and then it just progressed from working out to actually trying to compete and so on and off.

I've probably done over 40 shows in my lifetime now, which is not a lot compared to some people. It's a lot of shows, pretty

shows a lot. Of shows, Yeah, well, but I'm, I'm 62 now, so my last show was 24. I was 61 at my last show. So, you know, it's all about the long haul, right? The longevity of the sport. Playing the long game is key. I keep telling that to everybody I come in contact. That's why I love natural bodybuilding, because like, there's such an emphasis on the long haul. With natural bodybuilding, you don't really get you don't really get that conversation in

the untested federations at all. Yeah, it's all about the win right near, right here, right now. So everything is immediate when you're taking something because they wanted it yesterday. So they have no patience and it takes a while to put on that muscle, I tell you. Yes, it does. So what? What? What subject in grade were you

teaching? I taught elementary special Ed for 30 years, same school, and then I decided to retire after 30 and then I went back and substituted for the next 7 years still at the same school because the teachers got pregnant or you know, there was just a leave or something. So for 37 years, special Ed. Were all the elementary school school kids jealous of how jacked you are throughout all

the competitive seasons? Some of them, but you know, it's it's odd because people look at me differently because they don't see a lot of women with muscles in their culture. So we had, you know, a diverse population and people would look at me like something was not right because they weren't used to seeing women with with muscles. And so, yeah, I get that. Oh, you're jacked. Kind of comments from the young kids, but you look, it's not as much I. Mean, I remember one, one year,

how was that a show? You were judging. You were, I don't know if you were the head judge or or one of the assistant judges, but you were judging and I was in a row or two behind you. My my mom was watching that competition. So maybe I had competed and then stepped off stage and went to go sit next to her and she kept looking at you and she's like, man, I want calves like she's got and I'm like, yeah, that's Lisa.

She's a freaking rock star. And so, you know, that's all about it's like just kind of living the lifestyle and encouraging others that it doesn't matter where you start and, and whatever is your journey to be the best person, you know, the best that you can be. And so it just takes time. And I just especially at the gym, I want to be like that. I said, well, you got a couple of years, so just keep, just keep going, just keep progressing. It's just the consistency.

So hopefully that people see me and I'm a natural role model for them and they know that they can achieve things without any help, it just takes time. So that's what's so cool about your story and your physique and just how you done things.

I mean you compete in bodybuilding, which people typically just assume or you know, really muscle, heavily muscled and just massive and you're not massive, but like you're put together like a body butter like you have like it wouldn't make sense me seeing you in a bikini category like you. I try to. It doesn't work. Yeah, yeah, you look like a bodybuilder, but you're not like this overwhelmingly large figure like you. You flow and you're a very

aesthetic and it's all healthy. It's all natural. And you don't have these crazy shifts anymore, you know, between offseason and in season and, you know, massive 50 LB swings. What what was that journey like? Because that's something that often times goes unspoken in the bodybuilding realms. But most competitors have some form of disordered eating. They'll have these really sloppy building phases. I did that my first couple years. Like we're all guilty of it at

some point. But like, how did you break free of that negative downward spiral? Oh, gosh, it and it took, it took a long time because you know, you just want to eat everything. I would make lists. I would, I would scour through cookbooks and all these bad foods and things that I wanted

to eat. But every time I did that, I felt horrible. You just feel horrible. You gain 15 lbs in like a couple of weeks and you're just bloated and you just don't feel good. And then so it really plays a trick on your mental stability, right? So I, I would go into a depression after every show because I wouldn't look like I did on stage the weekend before. And I still get a little, you know, mental when I look in the mirror and go, oh, goodness gracious. But I, I just said, you know what?

I'm not going to do this anymore. And I just watched my eating. So I did the reverse diet without calling it a reverse diet and I just minimize all the extra junk food things. And so I kind of stabilized and then after that it was easy, but it took a few years for me to get to that point. And so now after, you know, after the shows, we have the judges feedback. And I tell people, I tell everybody, be careful of the

reverse dieting. Be careful of the depression that you may go through because nobody tells them that. Everyone's like, yeah, go ahead and eat whatever you want and just, you know, gain some weight, gain some muscle. I said, well, don't dirty bulk, which everybody does. Like, oh, I'm going to put on 20 lbs, Like, well, that's just fat. So stop doing that. Put on some good muscle, eat good and then when you prepare for your next show, it's not so hard.

You won't have to lose 40 lbs, you might have to lose 20 and the dieting or the prep, whatever they call it is is easy. And then when it becomes the lifestyle, then you don't have to worry it at all. Totally, totally. And I feel like a lot of federations and promoters don't really help in that regard because they'll have like treats and stuff backstage for them to eat after they step off, you know, the final call. And it's like, well, we're just kind of like feeding into that

negative feedback loop. And I mean, I did that for like several years. My first show, I lost 80 lbs in 12 weeks. And then I went out to eat and I

gained it all back. Not all of it, but I, I gained 24 lbs in 24 hours with the celebratory meal afterwards. And I felt terrible, super sick. And then I was like binging and purging for years. And it's like, that's no way to live. And there's got to be a better way. But that that never really gets talked about openly. So. It's important. It's important. I think they're getting better about it because other people, you know, they're doing it, people are doing it now.

So they're doing that reverse diet. They're really being more mindful about how your body adjusts to it because it's not healthy for one. And then you go into that cyclical, physical, emotional kind of spiral down that drain. And so I think more people are talking about it now than before, but still not nearly enough. So what I'm thinking now, I got to thinking about that this morning after my show.

I'm going to offer like a, just like a counseling, kind of a, just like a feedback session for the things that you may go through after a show. So I think that would be a good service for for other people to do. So if it works out, then I'll like cue you in on it. And so you can do it after your show too, right? But I'm going to be taking notes for sure. Yeah, it's all about really, it's all about the education.

Like people are cutting, they're not drinking water, they're not doing this because that's what they've heard or that's what Siri says or, or that's what YouTube says. I'm like, no, you just need to eat. You need to feed the body, you need to fuel the body. So I'll a lot of misconceptions out there still and it's just with education and finding a good trainer and nutritionist. So I know you do both right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, education around nutrition is my wheelhouse from

a ketogenic standpoint. Like I, I did the standard American, you know, flexible dieting approach for my first several shows. And I went keto to kind of beat these disorder eating tendencies that I was struggling with. And I've just been keto ever since for competitions as well. And you follow more of a, a mix down.

Like you're having, you know, all macro nutrients, but you're doing very healthy, you're taking a very healthy approach to it. Like you're eating Whole Foods, you're eating real nutrient dense stuff. You're not eating a bunch of junk food, and you're doing not. During prep season in the offseason is a different story. You probably don't let yourself go too, too far off off center because I mean, you still have, I mean, you're not like 50 lbs

overweight right now. Oh. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I try to to level off. I could probably maybe between 8 and 10 lbs off of stage weight just because I'm comfortable there. But I'll, I'll allow myself trees. I I'm a big chip fan and ice cream. So you know, that goes in a vicious cycle. But my foods are good and, and I just try to stay. I can, you know, you look in the mirror. I don't ever get on the scale. I don't count calories and I

don't count macros. I weigh my food because all that other information is just too much for me. So I weigh my food. I know exactly how much I'm eating pretty much. And so I it's easy for me because it's what I do all the time and so it doesn't change when I get ready for a show. I just cut out the extra junk food and the sauces. I love sauce, so everything on my food is sauce. But yeah, and I just, I can cut

down on this. So I could actually get ready for a show in four to five weeks if I really wanted to. How? Do you, how do you structure your nutrition with taking the mix that approach like if you're not tracking calories or macros, but you're weighing everything out, so all that's getting accounted for even if you are not measuring it out necessarily. Do you have any idea kind of how much more you're eating in a building phase versus the cutting phase?

Are you gradually tapering your intake that entire cut, or are

you just dropping it to a lower intake and then holding that stable? Like how do you typically go about it? So here's the thing, and this is pretty much why I I decided to stop. I look back and I have never really been in a building phase. So I I train hard. I always train as hard as I can. Even now, you know, it's harder now because I'm older, my body is a little bit broken down, but I never like ate excess calories

to try and build muscle. And so in the years, the past eight years, my muscle mass has probably declined a little bit every year just because I'm not pushing that boundary anymore. So I've just been in, I guess, a maintenance phase as far as eating and and working out everything, pushing as hard as I can, but not pushing to gain size. It's because I'm comfortable where I'm at, but it's not enough anywhere. So that's why I thought, OK, I'm

not going to compete. But as far as neutral nutrition, so I'll eat the same things pretty much. I worked with the nutritionist Leo King from in Canada. He I think was in 22 or 23 when I started having him do my nutrition plan. And so he gave me a plan and I just stay on that plan now. I mean, I just do the measuring of how much, how much things weigh, the proportions of protein, carbs and fats. And then I can eat vegetables as

much as I want. So I stay with that plan and all the way up until the show, I would stay with that plan but clean it up. So less sauce every week and then until like the last two weeks I would use no sauces, which is fine. You know, BBQ sauce and stuff is not that much. And then at times before the last two weeks, I would actually increase my calories. So I would almost increase my calories the last two weeks a

little bit at a time just to keep full because my body was still losing even though I was eating the same amount. And so I would just maintain it and, and fill up towards the show. Whereas it's opposite where people cut down more. But my workout stayed this. Everything stayed the same except for the extra sugar, sauces and things like. That so yeah, it's like the the staples food wise, like chicken, rice, broccoli, like that kind

of stuff. Chicken. So I'll eat like oatmeal, I love my oatmeal with a protein powder for breakfast. And then I'll have chicken and rice and vegetables and meat and riten vegetables and then Turkey and sweet potatoes and vegetables. So probably 4 to 5 meals a day of of a variety of things. Chicken breast, Turkey, ground Turkey and then petite sirloin.

So, you know, meat. I didn't watch the fat as much, but I knew that in chicken breast and ground Turkey, you're really not getting all that much fat. Yeah, so. But yeah, totally opposite of mine with the high fat. I've been doing like 400 grams of fat these past couple weeks on an experiment so just crazy. And then so that's the thing I worry about about people who are doing the keto with not as much knowledge as you is that they think they can just eat any kind of fat and things.

Is that bad for the body as far as well? You gotta, I mean, you want to make sure you're still consuming quality fats like I'm going to be doing, you know, quality animal fats, olive oil, avocado oil, like I'm not going to be getting all my fat from, you know, cotton. Sea oil or cheese? Yeah, stuff like that. But like, I get my blood work drawn on a super regular basis

too. And like with this experiment, I increased my fats like literally doubled and all of my cholesterol markers actually improved. So it was kind of interesting to see that unfold for sure. Yeah, that's kind of like eating more and still losing weight, but you're doing it scientifically and you're doing it monitoring everything. Whereas people is like I said, it's the education part. They're just doing it because

it's the fad thing. Oh, I'm going to go keto this week, but you don't know anything about keto. You know you need to do the research first. So even with bodybuilding, I want to do a show. Well, OK, I'm just going to not eat carbs and everybody goes no carbs. It's like then you have 0 energy. So, you know, it's a lot of education and I'm not quite sure how to get it out there. The good thing about it is this year I have, well, this is my first year. I have a lot of teenagers.

So a friend of mine is like a coach, a conditioning coach. And so he's sending a lot of his kids my way, which is good because they're seeing that there's, there's a way to do things without having to take any kind of substances. So that's yeah. Yeah, the the youth is super important. Like I was invited to speak at the local high school football team the other day. We, I put them through a workout and I was talking to him about nutrition and I'm like, this is the way to do it.

Because normally, you know, I'll get clients or, you know, older people that have already kind of made a bunch of mistakes and they're trying to get healthy after they've let themselves go. But like, you know, targeting the people that are, you know, early, early teenagers, it's like, let's catch them when they're young. That way they kind of have the right trajectory right out the gate. Exactly. It's like a proactive way, kind of like my migraine things. If I continue to exercise, I

don't get them. So if you continue your lifestyle, your healthy fitness lifestyle journey, then you can stay on it a lot longer. So hopefully that's the message we want to give out. That's the message we're shouting for sure. What about your training in cardio, like your, your training stayed pretty consistent whether you're in a build or whether you're an offseason or prep. And then cardio, I guess you just gradually scale that up throughout the prep. Yeah, well, I pretty much do the

same cardio all the time. I do everything pretty much the same all the time. I have the, so I always, I used to teach a HIT class and so I do that in the morning first thing, you know, fasted just that's I can't eat until I've done something. That's just how my body works now because I've trained it that way. So I'll do maybe 20-30 minutes of that just to get my body warm. I found that as I get older, it takes a lot longer for my body to warm up.

So be mindful as you get, as you age, you'll need a little bit more warm up time and then I'll do weights because I don't work. I can hit like legs in the morning. So I split that up from whatever I have time. Maybe I'll do quads, really focus on quads one day, hamstrings the next day, and then maybe focus more on glutes the third day. So I have like a little separation of my lower body. And then if I go back in the evening, then I'll hit chest, back, shoulders and then arms.

I have the luxury of splitting my workouts out if I want to, and some days I'll do both in the morning, some days not. It all depends, but that's been pretty much my workout schedule for the last 12 years, I think. And then I'll do a little bit of cardio at the end just to walk things out, get the lactic acid

out and stuff, and then all good. But it's just that consistency and the maintenance. So I do something every day no matter what. What if it's just cardio? It's just cardio, but I move every day so that I feel good. That's the key. And you've pretty much competed, you said pretty much every year. I mean, there's probably been a few years where you took off, but over those 40 competitions you were competing relatively consistently without a significant.

I did. I did take a break from like my mid 30s to my 40s through my 40s. Yeah. I just, I just didn't want there are less and less competitors after a while. And then when I started competing, I wanted to do a show when I was 50. So I geared up for that. But not really. I mean, I, I planned on it, but there weren't very many female bodybuilders. Maybe one or two. Sometimes I'd be the only one.

And so it was, it was kind of not anti climatic as I guess you could say, because you would show up and then there would be nobody there. So when I found the Natural Federation, the first couple of years I showed up, there were 1020 people. So I, it was exciting again. And now it seems to be dropping. You know, it goes, it goes in waves with the women. We just, I don't know where the

women bodybuilders are anymore. I think it's because there's so many more categories that they can compete in that it's just kind of fallen off. Yeah, there's, there's a lot, there's been a lot of changes. I mean, just within the WNBF Federation, they're now kind of linked up with the NANBF Federation, which I think it's a positive. You know, they're kind of joining forces there. But there's so many female categories that like when it was just bodybuilding, that's what females did.

But when there's now bikini, there's figure, there's fit body, there's I guess physique is kind of like the fit body within the Debian being federation, because NPC still has physique, right? They still have physique and you know, for a while they, they drop bodybuilding altogether, but they've, I think they're bringing it back now in some of the local shows. I know they have women's bodybuilding, but there aren't very many competitors.

It's still big with physique because the IFBB pros have physique, but I don't know if they have bodybuilding anymore. There's other federations like the Wings of Strength. They have female bodybuilders, but those women are, oh, they're so they're so big. Those are. Those are not bigger than. You they're bigger. Than you? Yeah, they're way bigger than me. Definitely not natural federations and the Wings of Strength.

No, no. And I think that's why for me, it's easy for people to look at me and say, oh, she's little. I can do that because I don't have to be huge. And so, you know, keeping this frame, it kind of dispels, like we talked about earlier, the myth of you have to be huge to be a bodybuilder. And it's really about, you know, the muscularity, the the conditioning, the symmetry, it comes down to that. Even little people can can win. So totally just yeah, that's. Let me ask you this, Lisa.

So I get a lot of podcast guests, especially here lately. It's like HRTTRT, like that is very popular right now. And it's not like it's even they're coming at it from like a performance enhancing drug standpoint for competitors. Like that's obviously still there as well. But a lot of people are going that route as they're going through menopause, as they're aging, just to, you know, stack

the chips in their favor and, you know, go through that more gracefully, so to speak. And a lot of the science that's coming out is kind of painting that in a very positive flight, Like, hey, there's safe ways to do it. There's the ways you can test and it can be done properly. So for you, you know, being healthy, having fitness and nutrition is such a big part of your life. What kept you on the natural realm instead of using some of

that? And again, not even for performance, but just from like a overall health and well-being standpoint. One, I'm cheap, I don't, I don't take anything. I don't take the only thing I take as far as somebody said, a multivitamin. So you know those little emergency packets, the kind you mix with water has vitamin C and all that. It's the only thing I take. I don't take creatine. I've I've taken maybe A1 bottle of creatine in my whole life.

I just don't want to buy it. If I win something at a show like a protein powder, I'll use it. But other than that, I don't take supplements, I don't take anything. And one, I can't remember to take it and two, I just don't want to buy it. So I just stay now completely natural because I'm cheap and

that's not. Resulted in any like crazy adverse effects like you're like, you know, menopausal years like testosterone naturally declining like that didn't result in crazy hot flashes or anything like that. Oh, I had the hot flashes, but I, I was around so many people that already went through it and I'd make fun of them. And so I thought, oh, that's just coming back that karma for me because now I'm having it. But you know, that was in my 50s Now I don't have, I don't have hot flashes.

I don't have any of that other stuff. And I don't know, I maybe I just don't notice it.

But you know, the hot flashes, yes. Oh, you definitely notice those things. But other than that, it's just part of life. I mean, that's what happens to people when they age. You know, they go through the changes. It's hard to to deal with it mentally at the time, but then you get over it and then it passes. So this too shall pass kind of a thing. I really appreciate that outlook because I'm obviously natural as well and I just promote that as a lifestyle.

And I feel like with all the popularity that HRT has gotten lately, I mean, you can, I can totally get behind the biohacking and the sciences and wanting to optimize. But at the same time, like we're human beings and we're meant to go through these natural processes and some are better

than others. Some might not be desirable, but it's a phase, just like puberty's a phase and people aren't taking, I mean, I guess now people are taking stuff during puberty years to, you know, block testosterone, but generally people aren't. And it's just you get through it. And I feel like there's a lot to be said for that, you know, and like now, now that you are through it, like you're, you're not experiencing any of those adverse effects. Your training's still dialed in.

You look amazing. So it's just a just. Yeah, I mean, it's The thing is you have to, it's mental. A lot of it's mental. You're you're gonna like, like losing hair, you know, you can fix that. You can either take a pill or you can do some other stuff. Weight loss, everything has a medical fix to it these days. But it is like you said, it's part of life. It happens. You know, dogs don't take extra testosterone because they're getting older.

They just don't know. So they just live the best life that they can, as happy as they can be. And then they go and I think it everything happens for a reason. We are who we are. We can be the best version of ourselves by just trying to be the best version of ourselves. And that part, it's harder mentally, I think, because even now I look in the mirror and I go, oof, I almost wanted to compete again. Because you miss that. You miss being at that great shape and, you know, having that

physique again. But at the same time, you have to realize, well, you're not going to get it back. I'm not 30. I'm not 40. So yeah, it's it's being mentally healthy that helps get you through the physical changes too. You kind of have to cycle around those things. And totally apart from the competition aspect of things, I mean the, the if you live your life like a natural bodybuilder, you age so much more graceful. Like I would assume you said

you're 61 now. 6260. 2 Now, yeah, I mean, you've discovered the fountain of youth, in my opinion. But like you look at your peers that are also in their 60s, like I would assume that you're able to move, you're able to spend time with, you know, grandkids and stuff way better than they are. You're able to get up and down stairs better than they are. You're able to like jump up and have some spring in your step still.

And they're, they're not able to do that because they didn't live their life with that compounding routine that you have. Yeah, I think, I mean, it's a plus. I still want to do the things that I want to do and be able to do it. You know, I've retired now, so I have freedom to do and travel and do things that I wanted to do when I was working. And it really it is the longevity of it. I I don't know how long, you know, people say I want to live to be 100.

Well, I don't think I want to live to be 100, but I want to have good quality in life until the day I'm not here anymore. And that's, that's the part. It's all about the lifestyle and being happy. I feel good and so I'm always happy. People say why? Why are you so happy? Or how can you be happy all the time? It's like, because I don't have anything to be unhappy about. I'm healthy. I can do what I want, you know, it's and I live simple.

I go to the gym and I come home. Then I go to the gym and I come home. I don't have too many troubles in my life. You are always smiling. I don't think I've ever seen you with a frown, which I appreciate for sure. It's it's noticed. Well, thank you. Well, it's the only time I found it's because I can't see and so I'm looking like this. It's like I just can't see. So with you having you were competing for so long, when did you start judging? When did that come into the picture?

Well, I started competing with the WNBF in 16 and I think I started test judging at in 2016. I met Bob and Tina in April at my first show and then they were talking about going to Hawaii for a show and I was going to go to Hawaii anyway the time that the show was there. So I just showed up at that show in June and they're like, hey, you want to test judge? I said sure, why not? And so I've been test judging and now I'm judging quite a bit and I just love it.

I think I like judging more than competing because it's, you know, you meet to meet, you get to meet so many people. Have you noticed the judging panel is it's usually the same people who are consistent. And so it's like meeting up with

family members. They get it's it's just a great experience and then we get that encourage athletes. So it's just fun. I can't wait to be at your show. We're so. Excited. I know I'm I'm super excited about it. You've judged me. I don't know. Probably more more of my shows than not I would guess over the years. A couple of times, yeah, I know.

I remember. It's like, wow, when you when, you know, it's kind of those things with judges, you see people come out on stage and then there's always one or two that come out and you go like, OK, this is what it's all about. And you were one of those. I'm like, oh, you remember that guy? Yeah. So you made a very good impression, which is which is great. And This is why you are who you are these days. But yeah, you just as a judge, you see the, the great competition, the great physiques

and then you encourage them. And then with you, I know you came to feedback, didn't you? You came to the judge's feedback. The good ones always do. Those are the ones who want to continue to improve. And then, you know, so I'm going to just shout this one out that if you want to be better, you need to know what you're doing or what you're not doing. The people who never come to feedback are the ones who complain. They show the one good picture of them on stage and they say I

should have won. I should have, would have, could have. But they don't know. And until you find out, you shouldn't be saying anything. I have, I have a real pet peeve about that. People complaining about how they placed but they didn't get feedback so they don't know. Totally, totally agree. What is your, has there been any trends that you've seen over the

years as a judge? Like have you noticed, you know, competitors bringing more signs or more conditioning or is conditioning lacking from what it was 10 years ago? Like have you just noticed any trends as a judge? There's several competitor mentions she has competed at worlds 4 Times Now four years in a row and she noticed that in figure that not that she's never competed against the same people. So now I think some women are taking time off to to try and build.

Whereas it used to be women would just compete and compete and compete. And I think a lot more athletes are now taking more time off to to put on some size because they see how important it is. So goes with the trend that people are getting bigger. I think the bikini girls are coming in a little bit harder at the higher level. Now we're talking aspiring to that world level that I think people are just getting more muscular because they're

training harder. They know there's more science behind the actual training and the nutrition part. So you know, people are coming in with a little more size. I've noticed the women at the higher level of bodybuilding are coming in leaner, whereas before they were coming in big, but now they're coming in big and lean. So where my conditioning held off for so long, it's not happening anymore.

It's, it's about everything. It's about the conditioning, the size and the symmetries, you know, So it's really evolving like with men. I'm sure you've seen that the men are also getting bigger with the conditioning and so it's just an evolving sport. And some of these, I mean, I was at a competition 2 weekends ago, another show here in Arkansas, natural shows in AMBF show and man like their, their largest category was the teen category. And like some of these teens are

just super impressive. And I'm like, where did that come from? I don't recall being like that when I was a teenager. No, I feel you.

See that I have posing classes and these kids are coming in 1516 years old. I'm like, Oh my gosh, what have you been eating? Because I need to eat that too. I mean, they're just, you know, I don't know if it's what they always say. Oh, it's the the things that they feed the cows because they're getting all that extra, extra help. Right. Maybe. I don't know.

I don't know what it is. I think maybe they're starting a little bit younger with actual training because of sports, you know, so competitive that they're looking for scholarships. So they're really trying to gear themselves up to be more competitive at the high school level so that maybe they can get a scholarship to go on and play college ball, too. So it could be social media. Yeah, it. Could be social media for sure. They're starting young because of them.

I know we're probably going to sound biased because you and I are both in the Debut and BF as competitors, judges, and promoters. But am I wrong in thinking that at the top level, the world's federation or the world's competition for the WNBF just seems to be like a totally other caliber than the other federation's top tier? Well, yeah. Well, it's different because it's natural. Are are we talking natural

federations? Not even just natural, but just yeah, I mean all the natural federations even I feel like worlds within all the natural federations is like next level. It's the next level, Yeah. But though that's the best of the best when it's the World Championships, right? So athletes from all over the world come and bring it. Whereas I don't know the, I don't know much about any of the other federations. I just kind of, I'm kind of tunnel vision because I don't know about it.

I don't really care about the other federations they don't have. They have so many shows

throughout the year that, you know, I don't know if they even have like a world's a final destination kind of a thing. I think like the IFBB has, you know, the Olympia and things like that, But that's just at their level or at their federation that level. So that's where ours is. And people always think, well, I want to see if I get my IFBB pro cards. Like why? Why would you want to come in last place to prove that you're a natural athlete? I mean, there's just no

comparison. So, but I do think that the world's is is that's, that's the place to be, that's I. Feel like honestly, even if we're comparing the IFBB to the Debbie and BF, like I feel like the level of conditioning for the natural athletes at that world's competition is far and above that of the conditioning. And just like the like the truly dense muscle of those in the IFBB league at that level, I mean, certainly they're much larger.

But like when I look at the graininess and just like the hard chiseled physiques of the the natural competitors, it's like I don't see that at the IFBB Olympia. No, it's just size, all that size and then whatever they're taking to dehydrate themselves so that their skin can get paper

thin. But you think about how unhealthy that is. Whereas when you do it slowly and you do it. Gradually that your body just, you know, comes to that point where you get on stage and it's like, wow, like look at Babakar. I mean, that guy's a natural. He's phenomenal. I know he's the only male to win three times, right? So that's just says something about his physique. And I think he got bigger this year. I don't I don't know how that

happens. But yeah, I think I don't know, I don't know much about the the non tested as far as how the body changes. All I know is that most of them are taking making something like a diuretic to drain the excess water and they get a, a look, but it's not the same as the the look that the natural competitors get. So you know, there's that difference, but.

Yeah. And by and large, the natural competitors, you know, long after they're done competing, they tend to hold on to the quality size better than those that are taking a bunch of gear to get that size. And they're, they're both, they're all working out hard. I mean, I'm not taking that from them. But like when you look at the IFBB competitors that are just, you know, walking around shredded at £300, then they stop competing in 10/15/20 years later, they've downsized

drastically. Whereas the natural competitors, you know, there's, they're still healthy and they're not that dialed in, chiseled, but they still have the shape and symmetry they've built over a lifetime. Yeah, that's, that's what I've seen as well. And then they're healthy, their body, their joints, everything

else, they're still moving. Whereas like, you know, you look at Ronnie Coleman and you look at all those guys that their bodies are just trashed out and they just can't, they don't function like they used to because they put so much wear and tear on it early on that now their quality of life is not is just not the same. But yeah, that's, you know, that's why the big masters push with the WNBF too.

It's because, you know, we need to address the people who are still going at it after all of these years. So I think that's why they want to push the masters categories a little bit further is that we need to make them still compete because it's hard to compete. I'm 61 and I was competing against 30 year olds, 20 year olds and, you know, just well, smells. Yeah, But you know, this it's, it's, it's hard. It's still hard.

We, we can't maintain it for that long and we just don't have the size that they have now. But so, you know, there needs to be a masters category for the people who are. But at the same time, people always think, oh, masters just means that they're old. It's like, no, they've been doing it a lot longer. So the muscle maturity and the conditioning is that much better at that age. So just the size isn't quite the same. But don't count out old people. They're still.

Going still. In the game so. Do you think you're actually retired from competing again, or do you think you'll grace the stage again at some point? I know everybody sees, everybody thinks that I'm going to get back on stage unless they have an ultra female bodybuilding which is 60 and above. And I still don't think I want to. I still don't think I want to get back on stage again. I really enjoying judging.

You know, I think I judge almost close to 10 shows a year, so that just keeps me busy and I really enjoy it. So I'm good without. I don't have that. Oh, I wish I was up there. You know how sometimes you watch something and you think, oh man, I wish I could still do it. I'm OK. I sit back and I judge now. I write the scores down and it's all good. Yeah, I don't think I'll be back. Well, I'm going to put myself on the spot here a little bit.

So you, I don't remember the last show that I did that you judged, but the last competitive season I did was 2023. When you look at me as a competitor, what do I need to, I feel like I've got the conditioning part dialed in. Like I don't think I need to. I can't really get any more condition than I've gotten. Where can I make improvement?

I'm saying this so the listeners can like hold me accountable because I'm just putting it all out there right now. Well, you know, like I said, as soon as you walk out, it was, you know, everybody just like wow, you know, your physique is just, it's just, it's eye-catching because of your condition and you're just like dry, you're shredded. Your muscularity is good. I mean, you're good symmetry and

everything. The only thing is that as you progress, you're going to have to put on more size. That's that's it. I don't know where you came in as far as your weight class, but you always want to be the heaviest at the lightest weight class that you can be in, so. I'm typically lightweight and I'm normally in the, the, you know, the other end of lightweight, the lighter end of lightweight. Yeah, I think I get down to like one 51153 last season, but I need to be heavy lightweights

for sure. Heavier lightweights, yeah. See, like, well, you know, Leo, I mean, with the lightweights, all you guys come in with shredded glutes. I mean, how do you judge eight people with shredded glutes? It's ridiculous. As far as conditioning, so the guys are coming in conditioned at the natural level, at the world level, everybody has that conditioning. So you need to separate yourself by maybe having just a little bit more size. Again, aiming for the heaviest

of that lightweight class. And that's just going to put on more muscle. It's going to just add to your symmetry. So you know, the bigger shoulders, good quads, you already have good quads. I remember your quads. You're like boom, spot on. So anything to make your waist look smaller, so create that more X frame smoke and mirrors kind of thing. The bigger the shoulders, the smaller the waist because that's just going to add to that symmetry.

You know, like Bob a car, he's got those tiny little waist and big shoulders. So for you, because you're already a lightweight, you're going to have to come in heavier at the lightweight. Does that make sense? Totally, totally. This is why I take so many years off in between shows like I did 23 and I may not compete again till 27 but I guarantee you when you see me in 27 it's going to be a whole of the package. They're like, oh, look at that.

He's heavy at the lightweight and it takes out. So I'm going to ask you, how long does it take you to put on like good, a good 2 lbs of quality muscle? I mean 2 lbs. I feel like if I'm in a building phase the entire year, you know, £2 a year is pretty realistic. Okay, yeah, because everybody you see guys at the jewelry, I'm gonna I'm gonna put on 10 lbs of muscle by August like.

Yeah, wow. I mean, if you like just started working out, like the first year I started working out, I put on like 20 lbs and it was pretty solid. It wasn't solid muscle, but it was pretty solid. But like, if you're a seasoned athlete and you've been lifting for five plus years, like, you know, 2 lbs of muscle a years is really solid, especially for doing it naturally. Obviously, yeah. Yeah, I know.

That's why. The thing is, you know, I've been working out for what, 30 some years for me to put on, put on any muscle I really have to go on a building phase and I don't want to eat that much to to do that. And so that's why I just said, you know, that's why I probably won't ever get back on stage again. I'm just too small to to get back there and I don't want to put in the work to do it. So do you just dislike eating

the amount of food necessary to put on that size, or you just don't like losing that much definition to accomplish that goal? Or what is the hesitation there? I think it is. It's, it's, it's both. I don't want to just spend all my day eating and preparing foods. I don't like feeling a little heavier than I normally feel just because you know, you have to put on and a little bit of extra weight. And I just, I kind of like the way I look.

It's just comfortable for me and I don't have to do a lot to maintain the look that I have. So it's just having a happy balance in life. Whereas I'm I'm good with where I'm at. Totally makes sense. Talk to me about the the show that you're promoting. So what was the motivation for becoming a promoter? What are you doing different? It's going to set your show apart. Like give me the details on that. Oh my gosh.

OK, So I never wanted to promote a show ever because I'm around it so much that I see all the stress people go through. So that was never on my radar. Then Bob calls me and, you know, we lost the promoter that had The One Show in the Northwest here in Oregon, and he said we need a show. It's like this was me, OK. And so I agreed to do it thinking that you know, it, it wouldn't be so bad.

And then of course having to find a hotel and the venue and so many other things, it just, it was overwhelming trying to do a website. I haven't so I haven't taught for years. And so for me to get back on the computer, it was just mind blowing. I forgot how to do anything on the computer. So it's just, but then I have so much help as well. I've got, you know, the kings up in Canada who are just more than willing to help out with anything that I need.

Katie is a great, you know, they're all great resources and really helpful, except Katie. I don't know if you've ever done Katie's shows or heard about her. I've never competed in them, no, But Katie's great. Katie's great. She's great. She sets the bar very high because she does a lot of swag. Everybody in her show gets a sword. Everybody gets a bag of goodies, all the competitors, and I'm like, I don't have the money to do that. And one, I'm horrible at asking for money.

So everything for this show is coming out of my pocket. I'm just paying for everything because I don't know how to ask for sponsorship and I don't want to. But luckily the venue is not a big venue, so it's a small one. Expecting a smaller show because it's the first one and yeah, we're just seeing what happens. But the more I do posing classes and the more I meet people and help them with their journey, the more fun it's become. It's just dealing with all the

other stuff that is really hard. There's a lot of administrative stuff because I mean like I'm a first time promoter this year as well. We're in the same boat in that regard. And it's like, you know, I've got all the the business stuff that I do. So that's helped tremendous. Like, I don't know if I don't know how I would do a show had I not already been doing business and websites that design and all the stuff that we've done here.

So I feel good there. But like, you know, promoting it, marketing it, drumming up interests, like going to different posing seminars, hosting posing seminars, you know, putting Flyers out, like all of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. It's like it's. It's no trivial task by any means. I don't know how people do it and I don't know how people do multiple shows. It's, it's it's crazy. I, yeah, when I sometimes I get into it going, what did I do?

What, what did I agree to do this for? So, yeah. And I don't have, I don't train people. I don't have any business background or anything. So I'm came, I came in with nothing. And then I at least I ordered T-shirts. I have T-shirts. Well, you've got a massive heart, Lisa, and that goes a long ways for sure. So I've got no doubt that your show is going to be a knockout success. Well, thanks, You know, I did. I tell you, I had an athlete

that follows you. So she's been training, not training, but she's been doing posing classes with me and she was so ready to come to your show, but financially would have been hard for her. But she is like an avid keto person and so and she did well. She did Katie's show. She won the debut class and the novice class for bodybuilding. And she did it all with keto. Yeah. What's what's her name? Her name is Alicia Philbach. I'll look her up, that's awesome.

Yeah, yeah, I think her Instagram is Phillip Backside or something like that. But yeah, I tried to get her to go to your show. That would have been awesome. Do you have female bodybuilders? So what I found, and you could probably test this too, is like competitors are the worst. They do not register until the last minute. And I was never like that. I mean, as a competitor myself, like I register as soon as I have my calendar mapped out.

Like I register as soon as I can so that I can put that date on the calendar. It's like spoken for, it's done. It's off of my off my chest. And like most competitors don't do that. They like wait till the last minute, which as a promoter is like horrendous because you get

all these expenses coming in and there's no revenue. I tell you, I under, I totally get that. And you know, it's like of a panic point because I've never done this before and everybody says don't worry about it, they'll register. They'll register like I want them to register now. I want to use their entry money to buy the prizes for them. It's like there's no revenue at this point. So it is. But you know, that's what people do these days.

They wait until the last minute to see if they're ready because if they're not, they're not going to enter and and lose their money so. See, I think that's flawed thinking. Like I feel like if you register and it's on the calendar, it's set in stone, then it's like you're going to have that in the back of your mind when you're training, when you're hitting your macros, when you're doing

your cardio. It's like if you know you're going to step on stage and there's no talking yourself out of it, then you're not gonna shirk that responsibility. So I feel like exactly competitors would be doing themselves a favour if they register early and set that that they set. That date, yeah, it's like this is this is your goal. This is your deadline right here. You need to be ready. But yeah, they don't do the the work ethic these days is a

little lacking. I think, you know, things have changed since before, because before people would be like, yeah, I'm going to enter this show and I'm going to do that show. So. But these days it's easier to to to to back out than it is to stick with it. So there's there's that. Yeah, I know. Well, what, what is the the website for your show? I mean, anything I can do to help promote it and spread the word? I mean, let me know for sure. I'm there for you.

Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, because that's one thing too, is I'm terrible about social media, so my posts have been a little less than desirable. But it's just a Portland rain natural classic, so that's. Portland Rain National Classic. Like REIGN, like a king or rain. Nice. Yeah, I used to play for a softball team called the Portland Rain, and so that it just popped up in my head, it's like, OK, that's that's doable. But yeah. So how do you ask for sponsorship?

I mean, how do you approach companies? I honestly haven't really promoted or asked for sponsorships. I've got it on my website. So like if you go to our competition website, naturalstatesavages.com, there's like a, you know, a page to register or if you want interested in sponsorships, we've got like 3 different tiers and people can do that. But I speak at a bunch of conferences and I've, I'm a vendor at a bunch of conferences with the booths.

So I kind of modeled what I've liked on the vendor side, kind of like for my sponsors, like we've got one company that just opened up. They're like a DEXA scan and they've got like they've got DEXA scan, VO2 Max, like a 3D imaging software and like resting metabolic rate calculator. And they just opened their doors right down the road from us and they're going to be a sponsor. They're going to have a booth there, but also like my company

is going to be a sponsor. It's like we're going to have our keto bricks there and then I've got like a massage practice there, a couple supplement companies. But I didn't really, I didn't really pursue anybody that I hadn't already had a relationship with. I just like told the people that I already had a good working relationship with of hey, I've got a show coming up, would love to have you as a sponsor if you're interested. We'll have a booth for you or something like that.

So that's how I did it, but there are probably way better ways to do it. Yeah, well, we'll live and learn, right? So the next show we do, it'll be a little bit better. Right now I'm just wanting to get people involved and get the word out that we're doing it. So just saying, hey, you know, I'm not going to try. Just come and do put up a booth or something so that people know who you are as well. So it's kind of a it's, yeah, it's it's just kind of a word, word of mouth kind of a thing

for me at this point. But I'll get better at it because I want to do more for the athletes. Yeah. And and that, I mean, that's the main thing. That's what I'm trying to really relay it through my messaging. And I feel like when you're doing it for the athletes first and foremost, then like that positive word of mouth spreads. And like competitors want to do your show because you you're taking care of them, you're

offering value to them. So I think you know yours will continue to grow because like I said, you've got a heart of gold and that doesn't go unnoticed. So like it will continue to get better and bigger every single year. Yeah, as do you. And This is why I liked you from the get go. You showed up, you were willing to help and do anything. I think you've volunteered at Aaron's show the first time that we actually got to after the world's backstage thing. And it's like, ah, this guy's

for real. He's there to help out. He's working, he's doing everything that he needs to do. Because a lot of people don't see that backstage stuff, the setting up the, you know, papering the walls, papering the

floors, you know, doing all the setup and everything. People don't see that and judging. They just think we show up, wear the T-shirt and and score things. But you know, there's a lot to be said about what happens in the back scenes. So when I met you and I saw that, it's like, oh, you guys, we need you need to get a hold of him because he's he's the real deal. So yeah, kudos to you for for being who you are. It's been a pleasure.

It's been awesome because when we got like a family, like we've got like all the WNBF promoters, Bob and Tina, like we've got that, you know, group WhatsApp message thread, It's like everybody's here for the right reasons. We're all wanting to help with the athletes and like just make it a better sport. Like bring natural bodybuilding more center stage. And when you talk to people that are that have that shared mission, it's like we're all working together. Like we don't have this

competitive vibe. We're competitive on stage. Like if I'm competing, you know, like I'm ripping your head off. But like as a promoter, as a judge, as a fellow competitor, like we're all just trying to grow the sport so that it's a healthier option and viable for people to do so. Yeah, we're all aligned in that. Yeah, well, just show up for each other and that's why we're so excited to come to your show, Terry. Katie and I were like, yeah, we get to go to Keto Savage show so.

Yeah, it's going to be good. I'm excited to have you out there. My dad's going to be cooking BBQ for all the judges and competitors, so you'll be getting some homegrown BBQ. It's going to be good. It's going to be it's. Going to be good like. Venue. So I'm super excited about it. Yeah, we're really looking forward to it.

I'm sure it'll be a great show. Who else is coming? Do you know judges as far as you have a full panel already? Yeah, I've got all 7. Let me see here a couple of them because like Nickerson, they were going to both come but then they had a wedding or something to go to. Yeah, his his dog's getting married like in Germany or something. Yeah, yeah. So viable excuse for sure. So a couple of my judges, Bob reached out and recommended some NANBF judges.

So I've got, I guess since we're all sharing the same guidelines and I think I've got 2 judges there. Kenneth Fritz is going to be a judge. I got, I got the full panel, but I got to go back and look and see all the names. OK. So Kenneth, first, he was from here because he was at that show that you were at, right? Yeah. Is he, is he over there now? Is he? Did he know he's still, he's still up in the Northwest?

Everybody in the Northwest, like it's funny because I'm in Arkansas, but most of my competitive journey has been in the Pacific Northwest. So like most of my connections are with y'all up in that region. So yeah, we're all, we're all over the place, but we're all one big family. It's what exactly? And then we'll all do what we need to do.

So if there's anything you need in the meantime, just let us know and then we'll help help you on this end because you know, we are in the Pacific Northwest. You're stomping grounds. Yeah, 100%. Well, if there's anything I could do to help you with your show endeavors, Lisa, you just reach out and let me know because I want to see you succeed with it and I'm happy to help. Thank you. That's I so appreciate that. It's been awesome. So the the website one more time for people listening.

Portland Rain Natural Classic. And what is your and what is your social profile that you're promoting? I think I have L2 Portland rain at so that's my Instagram and then. Yeah, L2 Portland range. So most of those things I think are on the website and how to contact me and and so forth. So perfect. Yeah. Well, I'll link out to all that make it easy for people to find you for sure. Thank you. I really appreciate that.

So yeah, I know you have a ton of followers, so hopefully that'll go. Well, whether they compete or not, it's a different question though. So hopefully, hopefully that will work out and we'll get some competitors at both of our shows for sure. Both of our shows, yeah, back-to-back, do both the polygraphs no good. There you go, perfect. Kill two birds and one. Yeah. Well, Lisa, I think the world of you. You are truly on top of the fountain of youth.

You look great. Every single, every single time I see you on stage, you look better. I mean, you're killing it. You're an inspiration to many. And I'm just grateful to know you and call your friend. Me too. Same here. Thank you so much. All right, well, you take care and good luck with the baby. Appreciate it, Appreciate it. We'll keep you posted for sure. All right, take care.