Chris Irvin from Ketogenic.com on testing ketones, using supplements, building muscle, and so much more!

What is going on ladies and gentleman, we got Robert Sykes, keto Savage.com and special guests. Chris Irving on the line today. Chris, how you doing, man? Good, thanks for having me today. Robert, absolutely. So tell everybody who are you and what do you do? All right. Yeah, so like you said my name is Chris. Irvin I am the director of content for ketogenic.com so that's just a fancy word for. I'm the guy that does a lot of writing and you know making the social media posts and

everything like that. For the website, my background it with Quito is No, when I when I graduated from my undergrad, I came down to the University of Tampa to get my masters in exercise and nutrition science and that I got to study under dr. Wilson, who's a, you know, a big figurehead and the keto and sports performance realm. So I got to study under him for a year getting my masters, and got to do some really cool, keto research in the lab there.

And then, you know, I really started getting passionate about actually I can't tell people the thing to kind of shift. My focus from Sports Performance, you know, into some other areas of Quito, I picked up the book tripping over the truth by Travis Kristofferson. And if you guys haven't read

that, that's a phenomenal book. But I picked up that book started reading about Quito and Therapeutics got really passionate about it and I was really fortunate enough to get to land a an opportunity doing some interning with dr. Poff and .n dr. D'Agostino's lab down at USF, which is a really cool opportunity.

And then from There. I just, you know, decided that it was time to start putting all this stuff out there and trying to educate the world on keto and that's kind of how the ketogenic things charging started to come about. And how long have you been doing the ketogenic diet? Come now and total. So been working on it for about two years eighteen months to two years right now, but we launched the website for the first time last November.

And if anybody followed us at that point, they saw really bad version of the website. When it first went up, We've, you know, I feel like we've continued to improve and over the last year, we've gotten to a point where I, you know, I think everything looks pretty nice. And our social game has gotten a lot better. So, yeah. It's been a little bit over 18 months so far. Yeah. And I mean every time I click on yellow stuff, I mean you're killing it.

This good relevant content, it's easily digested. I mean, it's good stuff. It's, you can have it your exposure at your fingertips, right there and get a good nugget of information. Yeah. And that's kind of what we what we wanted to go for like, you know, coming from a little bit of a research background. Ground. I had so much respect for a lot of these doctors and researchers that are doing all this great

stuff on keto. But the problem is a lot of that work gets lost in these journals that, you know, people people either don't have access to or they don't really have the ability to sit down and understand it. And that's kind of how this all came about. As it was trying to take that really highly respected quality work and putting it in a way that general population could not only understand it, but apply to their life. So that's kind of been what the missions been so far.

I like it, I like it. So What the festive about about like your your kids, an experience, like, what got you into doing the diet and how long have you been doing the diet and living that lifestyle, you know, as an individual? Yeah. So I've been doing it for about

two and a half years. Now, I started doing it, it was actually in like June of 2015 and I had just come down to the University of Tampa, and my first class was Sports Nutrition with dr. Wilson And day one of Sports Nutrition. Of course, he started talking about keto and I had heard about keto probably four months prior. I had gone to a conference where I actually heard like dr.

Volek and dr. D Agostino talk, but I didn't even know who they were yet at the time and so I you know I didn't really know much about Quito and F is actually after that first class with dr. Wilson that I just decided like, you know what, I'm going to do Quito and I jumped in the next day, I had no idea what I was doing. I was just eating, you know, bacon and beef.

And, you know, I definitely went through some trials and tribulations trying to, you know, get the diet working out for me. I had some keto, flu bouts and, you know, dealt with a lot of that stuff. But you know, it took me probably a good. I would say, three, four months of really educating myself before, I felt like I had it locked down. And now, you know, you know, to you two and a half years later, I feel like it's just been a breeze.

My biggest reason for doing it is I really enjoy the - benefit, you know, even if all other health benefits aside the, you know, ability to focus and, you know, sit down and read research and, you know, write and do everything. I feel like has been enhanced in such started Quito, so that's kind of been my biggest benefit from it. So you've been, you've been key to two and a half years now. No, no carb interruption in that time.

So, my first year, I actually, I spent my first year, completely carb-free. And then since then, you know, I had something like, you know, if I were to go, Home, you know, back to see my family and stuff. If my mom had some home cooking, you know. I would enjoy that stuff. I've been probably a little more lenient over the last year, but you know, that's and that kind of brings up like a big thing.

Like, what something I always tell people is that if you, you know, stay really strict with keto when you first start, if you can get yourself to get like six months to a year of really like sticking to it and and you know, following the the diet

pretty strictly. You can set yourself up to a point where, you know, Later on if you don't have any conditions and you're just doing keto for the general health benefits, you can get away with, you know, having, you know, of some carbs here and there or if you know, decide you go, you know, go home and you want to enjoy some of your mom's cookies, or something like that. Like, you can get away with that a little more, but the problem is, a lot of people do that to

first six months on keto. And if you do that, you never really get fully fat adapted. So, the point where you can, you know, kind of be able to benefit from both sources. So yeah, I think so. You know, for the most I would say That now it's I'm staying pretty strict with it. But, you know, if something pops up where, you know, I'm, I'm back home or something, then I'll let myself have a little freedom. I love to talk with you.

About the difference between being in ketosis and being key to adapt to defend that took that comes up a lot with you know all of my clients and what not. But I mean people assume that as soon as they're there millimolar blood ketones you know, meet your meat or above 0.5. They're going to go but like I've been Adapt for about two and a half three years now as well.

And I said by, you know, my last six months to be better than my first six months, he'd probably say the same thing, like your body. Just keeps becoming more and more efficient as you go. Mmm.

Yeah. And that's kind of something that what that's a big reason why I tell people not to get super worried about tracking their blood ketones when they first start off because a lot of people will get either too excited or they'll get discouraged based on what they're seeing on that meter and you know, that we can talk about this after. But the meters, not even really a clear indication. Of what's going on.

But you know, a lot of people you can produce ketones in your blood, that would be considered in nutritional ketosis with the you know, some people can do that within a day if you incorporate some fasting and whatnot but you know anybody who's done the diet knows that you know a day 3 days a week end you're definitely not feeling the way you should feel if you were truly fat adapted so that and that's kind of the biggest difference of you know between being in ketosis and being fat

adapted. And you know what I always tell people is when You start feeling those benefits of Quito, like the increased energy Focus, you start feeling like you're a lot more full, your Cravings have gone away. That's when you know that you're more keto adapted because, you know that you're utilizing fat better and you are actually using ketones as fuel rather than just producing them.

And kind of that difference between, you know, being in ketosis can mean just producing ketones, but being key to adapted means you're using ketones. Absolutely, I think, People ask me about know that that Ki toh Hai, they first experience in the first month or so.

And then how that Wayne's, you know, as they get further in, and I'm not sure that the high Wayne's, I just think it's become, it's more relevant that first month because you have like, what it was like to eat carbs, freshen your memory and then as you're in ketosis longer, that that Wayne's. So it doesn't seem as a stark contrast. Do you know that? Yeah, I mean it's what ends up happening is it kind of becomes your new normal Arm.

Like, you know, before when you were before you were following a keto diet, you know, you probably eat a meal, it's heavy and carbs and, you know, you feel probably tired and lethargic after and, you know, then you switch to Quito. And that first month you start getting like, I kind of call it, like Euphoria, you just get this feeling of like, you know, you just like almost like eye-opening and, you know, you start feeling that but then, you know, as you keep doing keto,

that becomes your new norm. And, you know, sometimes it takes sitting back and thinking about being like, you know, six Months ago, I didn't feel like this, you know, even though I may not notice it as being as of robust now, it wasn't like this before, it's just that. Now it's kind of more

continuous. And I think that like one of the things I've noticed too is like when you first start keto I think what happens is you get more like surges of like that Euphoria where you know, I remember you know one time specifically where I was driving in my car and I had like this feeling that just like took over my body and I was like, whoa what was that? And I was like and it was when I

had Just started. I was probably a month in and like, after talking to people like, yeah, that's kind of like that, euphoria that you get from Quito and, you know, I'll still get that every once in a while. But now it's like, it's not a surge. It's kind of like a constant thing. Yeah. And I think really what that's attributed to is, you know, your brain has a high affinity for ketones.

So if you're producing them, you know, your get your brains, going to be utilizing them, you know, primarily over every other tissue in your body. So when that happens, I think that that just kind of becomes the norm for your I think it's different for everybody when they when it kicks in. But last time we spoke, I had mentioned that my blood ketones

and become much, much lower. You know, being Ito ketosis as long as I have, which is basically just a tribute to my body being more efficient at utilizing them and not having them floating in my bloodstream. Is there like a time frame that you notice pretty consistently with that happening in people? So it's tough because when you test ketones, like, I've noticed this from you don't like during my grad school, I was doing a lot of Research, where we would people were.

We're doing exercise and different food, interventions and testing ketones. And the thing is, is like testing your ketones in general. Really makes a big difference. It makes a difference on when you're doing it like you may eat like a totally keto friendly meal and see a drop in ketones immediately after like I've seen that people. So it's kind of hard to get a good interpretation of it. But what I start seeing with people is usually in, like the

three to six month range. You start seeing that like those Tone levels. If you're kind of choosing a consistent time to test them, which we can talk about that later too if you want. But if you're choosing a consistent time to test them, usually in the 36-month range, I'll see that people's numbers aren't as high as they used to be, and they start going down and, you know, for some of like the clients that I work with, a lot of times, they'll kind of

freaked out about that. And they'll be like, you know, I'm not having any carbs like what's going on. I'm sure you kind of see that to, with some of your clients. And, you know, my biggest thing I always tell them is, you know, how are you feeling like, do you feel Like you have good energy. Do you feel full like you, are you having cravings? And if they say, you know, note although singer, yes, to some of those and notice some of those, then it's like, then what are

you worried about? You know, you're definitely in Quito. It's just that. Those numbers aren't the same anymore. Yeah, people get so hung up on what that little device reads off to him. So talk about like breath ketones. Like I'm using that level device right now to measure acetone in the breath, how is the correlation with that? Like what would be, what am I looking for? Exactly.

Yeah. So I've never actually used the breath meter before but I know that there's at least two published studies out there that show that the results you get from the breath Ketone. M is is pretty much or they it correlates well with what you get from the blood M. The only thing that I've seen with it is that and now sounds like you might be using a different one than what I'm familiar with. But one of the first breath M

that came out. I was getting a lot of feedback from people that interpreting the results was kind of a struggle. But if Like and they maybe they've improved that since then but if you're able to interpret them they do say that the results are very comparable with what you see on a blood Ketone meter. So I think it kind of just comes to if you're kind of trying to choose which one, I think you probably just look at Cost. Effectiveness is probably what you should look for.

Okay, because I'm using, I'm using the level at another key tonics was a was really big initially. It was the one I know about. Yeah, yeah. And the levels, pretty expensive but it's Unique in that it's like it's like all a self-contained laboratory-based. Khalil, I call Everything's contained. There's no margin for error, really? Really. So it's pretty.

It's pretty fancy. But I don't know if I've heard that it's a, it's a better indicator of how many ketones your body's actually using and burning as opposed to just was floating around your bloodstream. So I did ya out there was an idea of a product, right? Right. So if I'm the break time in theory, if I like test before training, and after training, should my parts per million be higher or lower Well I mean based on what might like my theory would be that after work.

Well it's tough to say because if I guess if you're doing breath and it's measuring a byproduct of the breakdown then you would assume that it would be higher because you would assume that you're utilizing more and you know and a blood M you would assume it would be the opposite that you're probably going to well in a blood M it can be difficult because if you're burning more fat than you, maybe also producing more ketones at the same time and that's, you know something.

Yes, that's even same for breath, you know, regardless of what you're measuring, if they're depending on your exercise, if you're burning fat and producing ketones, it kind of depends on your rate of burning versus Burning, the fat in producing ketones and the burning of the ketones. You know, it's kind of hard to interpret that it is, it is hard to quantify. I'm such a data nerd. I just like want to get all the numbers at the same time.

It's much better. Just to focus on how you feeling it before me. Yeah. You know, I always tell people to it's like, look at your progress. Like, you know a lot like I've had so many clients that Gets like really upset or hung up or stressed out about those numbers. And I was, like, to be honest with you, like, with what we know about cortisol, like your stress is going to be hurting your level of ketosis more than anything. Yeah, exactly. Just listen to how you feel, and

see how you're progressing. And if you're getting good progress and stuff, then you really shouldn't beat yourself up about those numbers. I completely agree you ever use like a glucose test. Yeah, so usually when I test I do like to test both at the same time just because I'm always curious to see Like what my fasting, blood glucose is, my never gotten crazy low, like I still I still hover around like the 80, you know, 70 to 80 range.

Like, I've seen some people with dip down into the 50s and 60s and keto, but I usually do use it.

But one of the things that I've been really, you know, intrigued with like, doing self experimentation and seeing how your blood glucose response to meals, even like Tito friendly meals, you know, there's a lot of people out there that think, like, Like, you know, if you're eating some of these, like, eco-friendly Suites that are out there that you can kind of, because of your kind of mentally, you can almost like force of blood glucose response because you think you're getting

something sweet. I haven't seen that in myself, but it's kind of been something that I've been testing a lot to see. So I still like to do blood glucose at the same time and it's I mean, it's the cheapest option. Like it's, you can get, you know, glucose drip for pennies on the dollar. So it's a effective way to see how things respond within.

Yeah. Thing to, like, a lot of people, if they're saying, like, you know, wanting to know if they should test ketones all the time and they're worried about the price. Sometimes, I'll just tell him. Like, let's look at your glucose because, you know, while there's not a perfect correlation, you know, we know that if your fasting blood glucose is 120 then you're probably not in ketosis. So right?

You know, trying to, you know, find a cheaper way to monitor how you're doing on the ketogenic diet. You know, testing blood glucose is just as good. Yeah, I completely agree. So, anything below what? What's like, a just a good general rule anything. But Low 100's pretty solid. Yeah I mean below 100 I would say is in like them with the moderate range but what I've seen usually like 8080 and below is what I've seen to be good for fast now that's fasting. So waking up in the morning.

I think the best time to test glucose and ketones is, you know, in the morning about two hours after you wake about a 10th after like a 10-hour fast, that's kind of what we used to do. Anytime we would test ketones in the lab, we would try to have that be the protocol. But that's, you know, I would say for, like, a lot of that usually in, like the 80 to 85 and under is what we look for. But it that also depends on how long somebody's been keto for.

Like if you're new to Quito and you're super insulin resistant, it might be harder for you to get that fasting. Blood glucose number down, it may take a little bit longer, but guys, like us who have been doing it for like 23 years, we should probably be more. Like the 8080 below range, is that kind of how you are, where you at.

That's generally where I met except for this month, I'm doing that experiment where I've got a higher protein and I've noticed the higher protein is definitely kicked up my fasting glucose. How how much is it affected at? So like right now my macros are 235 protein, 222 fat, and like less than 20 grams total carbs a

day. And since starting this my weights increased, my glucose was, you know, averaging around 80 and now it's you know, mid 90s, sometimes as high as 100 and my ketones of old dropped as well. Okay. Now, do you when are you testing them first thing in the morning? First thing tomorrow.

Okay? So one thing too that I always tell people to at least be conscious of is, if when you're waking up in the morning and testing, sometimes cortisol can have a little bit of an impact, because cortisol, if you have normal circadian rhythms, it should be spiking in the morning, right? That can have an impact on your

blood sugar. But so usually, I always tell people to wait a couple hours after, but if you were always testing in the morning then I guess, you know, that's a control, so that doesn't really matter. But, you know, I wonder the, one of the things I've been wondering with that because I've tested a little bit of high protein in myself too. But I've never been in a calorie Surplus, during I assume you're in a surplus now, right?

Yeah, I'm in about 3,000 calories a day but no. Okay, so I've never done it in a surplus before. So I've kind of wondered because you know the research out there on higher protein, you know it's like gluconeogenesis and everything one of the thing and this would actually be an

interesting thing for you too. You look at, if you could track, it is seeing you know, some research has shown, that may be acutely, having high protein could increase gluconeogenesis, but long-term what they show is that it actually balances itself out. It's so, you know what? I would be curious to see is like, if your blood glucose is higher in the morning on your high-protein. I wonder what it is at night. Do you ever test at night, sometimes randomly? But I've been just trying to

test consistently each day. That I mean, sure, I'll test it. Not just just for the heck of it and, and my meals, like, this is the first time in years that my, you know, caloric intake. From protein has been higher than my protein ratio is basically had in my fat ratio, which is crazy, my grams

anyways. So I think like I've experiment higher protein in the past two and all I have like a really, you know, you know, protein Dent steak and a lot of really high Ketone readings afterwards, but the fat is also, you know, proportionately just as high. Yeah. So I think that is a huge factor in as well, because I mean, you can have a, I think you can have a pretty high bowls of protein. But as long as your fats there to slow the digestion, you're going to have pretty ketogenic effect.

Whereas if you have a, you know, much higher protein ratio, you're not going to have that fat to slow it, it's going to skew the numbers. Yeah. So that's what I was going to ask. Now, do you on this type of you're doing currently? Do you have more is your meals more like lower fat when you have the high protein? Or is there still a decent

amount of fat, man? I try to make sure that we got a decent amount of Because I don't want to have any meal is just like, basically pure protein, but there's there's been times where like I just did any more fat in the day and I would have to have like a predominantly protein-based meal, but I noticed when I do that, my numbers and next morning always worse. So yeah, I think I think having having them, you know, a fat in the diet ski dad, you do.

This is something I always like asking people to especially people that train like yourself. Do you use protein shakes at all? Now, I don't ever when I have the lower. Protein ratio, I have been lately. I've been using an ancient nutrition bone broth protein. Just simply did I mean, because there's days were like I need 20 grams of protein and no fat. And that's like, just a quick easy way to go for it. But I don't like using the protein powders from me, there

that that one's a good one. The bone broth one's a good one, but there's still so much, like, sweetener in there. And my pilot has changed so much since kiddo. Like I don't like it, I don't like the sweetness. Yeah, I've noticed that too. Like I'll you know, some days if like, you know, if I train or something and And it's I know it's going to be a long time before I eat and I kind of want a snack. I might grab a quick protein

shake but yeah, same thing. Like now they taste so much sweeter because, you know, compared to before, like I don't have a sweet tooth really at also like even like mildly. Sweet things are enough for me and anything overly sweet.

It's almost too much. Yeah, I've always recommended, you know, client because everybody has protein shakes that's been around forever, you know, so I've always recommend that if you have protein shake friend have only half a scoop at a time and then try and you know, even that Shoot out by adding some MCT or there's some kind of fat source that it's not

just a pure bowls approaching. Yeah and one of the things to during my grad school we did a little bit of research with it and we actually were testing like different types of protein and now we actually found the egg. Protein was a little bit, was slightly more keto friendly than that, then like whey and casein. So really? Yeah. And I totally agree with with putting things like whenever I would do protein shakes, I would like to do like some heavy cream coconut oil MCT powder.

I'm like that. So the only problem is egg protein, it's not the best tasting one, you know, it's just not as good as way but, you know, for somebody, who if they're looking to do protein and they want to, you know, make sure they're staying keto friendly and also maybe trying to avoid Dairy. I know that's a big, a big kind of phase right now is people are trying to phase out dairy. Egg protein might be a good thing to consider.

Yeah, I mean, I'm just eating a ton of, you know, eggs right now, engine light about anywhere from like 10 to 20 eggs a day right now is crazy. Yes. Do you know I've been wondering like do you have you had any problems because I'm the same way like I eat a lot of s. Probably my primary foods. I eat is eggs, have you developed any sort of like intolerance or anything to having so many? No, not that.

I can tell, I mean like my go-to meal right now so I'll cook like to burger patties or two sausages or something. In the cast-iron skillet and I'll just crack you know ten eggs in their time and scramble it and that's just like a lot of volume and it works really well with the ratios. I'm trying to hit right now so it's just easy. But yeah, I haven't noticed any intolerance whatsoever.

Yeah, that's a question that I get a lot because, like, you know, I'm the same way like I'll because, you know, eggs are almost the easiest thing. If you're like, you said, trying to balance out your ratios, you know, it's a good way that if you have maybe a little bit of a leaner source of meat or something, you can throw some eggs in there to get your fat up

and whatnot. But I, you know, so I've been for the last two and a half years eating like at least you know six to ten a day and people always ask me that question. I haven't experienced it either by I've heard some people report that so I was just curious if Experienced anything with it? No, no, I haven't. What about? What about Dairy. So you mentioned earlier people trying to phase that Dairy what is like to get your take on it.

But from what I've experienced as far as like if you have an intolerance to Dairy, it's going to be minimized on keto. Like I think if you have dairy and carbs and fat those negative impacts are Amplified by think going key to their minimize, but obviously still some people would benefit from removing it. Do you think everybody has a dairy intolerance in some form or fashion or And some people totally get away with it.

That's a great question. You know, the thing is, is, like the biggest thing with dairy and like lactose, specifically, is like, if you go overboard on Dairy, you're going to be getting lactose in there. You're going to be getting sugar. So, if you're going to use it, I think moderation is key. You know, a lot of people report, you know, experiencing experiencing like inflammation and stuff, while using a lot of dairy. But one of the biggest things about a ketogenic diet, is it

reduces inflammation. So, just like you said, I think Darion. A huge egg dye is going to be a lot better than Dairy on a high carb diet where you're probably already experiencing inflammation. Regardless of the dairy, what I always tell people, especially if you're new to Quito, don't cut out Dairy because that's just going to restrict yourself more, and probably just going to look lead to you failing more or, you know, lead to a better chance of you falling off the diet.

But if you, you know, start to see a plateau or you start to, you know, hit that spot where like, you know, I'm not seeing any more progress, it might be worth it to look into. The dairy and taking it away. But like, for me personally, I've been doing keto for two years and I haven't felt the need. You know, I've never ate a ton of dairy but I've never felt the need to completely remove it from my diet. You know, I've heard a lot of people like, I know, like Leanne Vogel is really big.

I'm keeping Dairy out and she says, you know, she feels so much better when she doesn't do it. I think it's just kind of one of those things where it's really specific to the person. And that's, you know, the biggest thing like I always talk sustainability if, you know, having dairy in your Jake died is going to make you you know, 1% less healthy but it's going to give you an 80% better chance

of staying on the diet. I would rather you have dairy and stay on the diet but if you're trying to optimize the diet then you know, maybe it's worth taking a look at cutting it out. Yeah. And I don't know, I'm incredibly insensitive like I perform fine with carbs when the 8 mm. So I think the the sugars that I'm getting from the lactose like my body is able to settle those through pretty effectively and that's probably why I'm not getting near the negative feedback from it.

Yeah. And that's That's a good point too. Is why self-experimentation? Knowing your body so important like I'm the same way so I played basketball in college and everything. So I've, you know, always had a pretty good metabolism. I've always been really active and everything. So you know, I've I can handle, you know, carbohydrates pretty

well too. So for me, a serving of cheese or two servings of cheese, the minimal amount of carbs, it's in. There is probably not going to affect me. And I've kind of tested this myself, like I can get my carbs up. A decent decent level and still stay in ketosis. But somebody else who You know, they're coming to the ketogenic diet and there may be obese or their experience. They know they have diabetes or they're very insulin resistant there, they might not be able to handle those things.

And for people like that, it might be better to cut out Dairy. But like, you know, usually on keto, the big conversation with Darius cheese. There's actually a lot of pretty good alternatives to it. Like actually have almond cheese now which is pretty decent so you can actually cut those things out and not really you know, miss out on too much in of the Cheese's because I love

cheese man. Sometime, I mean cheese is great because it's like if you get a super hard like parmesan cheese, you know, it's part of the heart of the cheese. The less lactose, right? Yeah. So the harder and the I've also heard the longer that it's aged too. So if it's been aged longer, there's less lactose in it and I mean, you can get like, a really aged hard, you know, parmesan or something like that, and you don't even need to really keep it.

Refrigerated you guys like, take that with you. So it's like a really good go to, you know, traveling food option. And I don't know, like, I just Cheese but yeah, I think I think the butter also didn't have very much like toes so you know, hard cheeses and butters people can

get away with that with. I think much minimal effect that I've also been trying to steer clear if the shredded cheese because they often times put that anti-caking agent on there which is going to you know, potentially spike, your insulin levels. Yeah. And that's a big thing too. Is like, you're looking at it, you really have to look at the ngrick because people always ask like what source of cheese is the best and it really depends

on where you're getting it from. Like, you know, there's a lot of cheese has a Of people that put fillers in their cheese. A lot of people that, you know, if you're getting like low-fat cheese, usually anything this low-fat means that they probably incorporate carbohydrates into it. So, that's why it's important to always look at, you know, the label on stuff and see what you're getting. And like, you said, you know, the harder Cheese's in the dirt and the longer they've been aged for.

Those are going to be your best options on keto. Very cool. What what other kind of know what are some of your go-to meal options? I guess because there's a lot of people in the first, what the damage is. They just feel really limited, but it's far from the truth. I mean, you can make a recipe for anything. But I mean, what are some of the lesser-known food items that you go to? Yeah. So I actually so, you know, kind of my normal protocol, is I fast about 16 hours a day.

I do that strictly for the cognitive benefit of it. I get the majority of my work done in the morning. So I like fasting during that time, but my, you know, my go-to normal meals is, I really like eggs and bacon. Obviously, I have not gotten Sick of that. And I really like top salads, like Cobb salad is my go-to because that's like the most keto friendly salad. There is it's got, you know, egg bacon, you know, there's chicken in it. Blue cheese, you know, dressing

all that. But you know some of the Lesser known ones that a lot of people don't usually talk about any. Well it used to be popular a few years ago, when dr. D'Agostino brought up the like sardines or like one of my favorite foods, I really thought like it's, you know, a lot of people are kind of turned off to him but I really like sardines. There's a Health benefits to them. And you know, most times they're packed with what they're packed in. There's a lot of sodium with

them. So being somebody, that is pretty active and plays, you know, basketball few times a week like getting that extra sodium's, pretty good. So, you know, I really like sardines and then, you know, cooking wise stubb that my big thing right now. And here we just talked about cheese. So I kind of brings it up a Fathead do. And we've talked about this in the past, like a bad head. These, those are like my go-to right now. Yeah, those are hard to beat, for sure.

Yeah. Very I'll be speaking on sardines, man. I'd I get those Wild Planet sardines. Yeah. And I just totally on a whim, I added almond butter to the sardines, I got open up the candidate. Almond butter to it, and that light really made the ratio is perfect. As by themselves, they have a higher protein ratio. Yeah, but like, 2 tablespoons,

almond butter. You would think that be really weird, but like, the salt, the almond butter, like combines with olive oil and it just makes it delicious. I'm going to have to try that right away because one of the big things that I do and I'll post it on my personal. Account sometimes and I'll like, I'll put it on my store and people always like, ask me what the heck I'm doing, but I put almond butter on eggs. That's a big thing that I do

too. And I, so it's the kind of that sweet salty combination going on. I'm gonna definitely have to try that first sardines, that sounds really good. Yeah, and like those the f bomb package he ever eat those. Yeah. The macadamia nut butter. Yeah. Like, I'll have a can of sardines. I'll have one of those in my bag and I mean, they're both portable. So you can just take that and you have a perfect keto ratio, right? They're on the go hard to be. Yeah, I felt bombs really good.

I had some of their stuff. When I was out at sake, gioconda, slasher, that was kind of first time I got to try them. There's, there's such great, but the, and that's kind of the big thing with, like, what kito's doing right now. Like, there's so many of these awesome on-the-go options for people. Like there's really no excuse anymore for, you know, failing on keto when you travel and stuff because there's so many options like that available.

Yeah I totally agree. So let's talk about Isaac's gonna ask you something else about food what was it I don't remember, I don't remember. Anyways, we'll come back to that but I really like to dive into supplements because I want to get behind the science of it but I want to preface this conversation with. I think you and I are both in agreement that nutrition is far and above supplementation. People often times get that backwards but I think we can

both agree on that. Yeah I know that's that's the biggest thing with in any diet but especially in Quito every a Men should be what exactly what it is. It should be a supplement to your diet and it should be. You know, there's certain supplements that can help you know, get you to the point where you have a well-formulated ketogenic diet but if you don't have the nutrition down path and you know any supplement that you're looking at, it's not going to matter. Yeah, exactly.

I don't like branched chain. Amino acids are super hot right now. There's been a lot of research coming out that they are effective. There's some research come out, they're not effective. Like well, what is your what is your take on branched chains? Yeah, so well. Guessing, you know, the to take sorry, you know, the question of are they effective, aren't they?

And then you know for keto, what's the deal with the research seems to be, you know, I've I know recently, there's been more coming out about them, maybe saying that they're not as beneficial, but I know that you know, when I was going through grad school and stuff, there was a ton of research out there showing how taking making sure that you have enough leucine, hit the threshold to stimulate muscle protein synthesis is

beneficial. And, you know, a lot of people claim that, you know, having being branched-chain amino acids before your workout can, you know, help give you a lot of energy. So I think that, you know, I do think that they're an effective supplement for people to take the question becomes what about on keto? Because, you know, leucine is, it's a ketogenic and a gluconeogenic amino acid. So that means it can be

converted to ketones or glucose. So a lot of people wonder like, you know, will I get kicked out of Quito taking BCAAs? One of the, the biggest things I always tell people, is that there's actually been some research out. I knew that if you take leucine before workout, the workout can actually belonged the insulin response that could maybe come

from from taking Lucy nor BCAAs. So I always tell people if you're going to do BCAAs on a kid Jack that you probably want to keep them either pre workout or intra workout when you use them. What about, what would you recommend having like a branch chain or just getting like a pure grade leucine? I would say Branch chain.

Now, I'm kind of drawing a blank on it because I've been out of it for a little while, but I know there was some research at one point talking about how like the I thought it was about how the other the other amino acids can help with like the uptake of the leucine or something like that. But there's also a lot of benefits to the other one.

So, you know, I think that, you know, having both the end of BCAA are all having all three in the BCA mix is probably most beneficial but I wouldn't consider myself to be like the expert on that and I know a lot of the the pre workouts have like beta alanine there but that's much more glucose glucose genic than the ketogenic. So I try and steer clear of a leaning like as a standalone supplement.

Yeah. And you know the other thing too is like with beta alanine is a lot of like you know this is kind of another conversation but a lot of products they actually they they sometimes they'll fairy dust the the beta-alanine they'll go like a ton of niacin and it just to like make you get that feeling. I'm actually just not a big fan

of Fatality myself. I my body doesn't respond well to it, but I've actually never tested my ketones afterwards to see if there's any impact, I have you tested it all. When taking it, I haven't taken the large enough dose Standalone to be able to really get an accurate control and Baseline. That would be interesting to do that. I should do that. Yeah, I'd be curious about that because I know like, you know, there's a lot of research out there about showing how even acutely.

It can really increase your strength and, you know, I've in the past whenever I've taken I've experienced that but But I'm not a big fan of the way that I feel on it. I don't really like the the tingling feel the face and everything that you get from taking it. But yeah I'd be curious to see like what the glucose response is on that because you know you're still taking it in a you know if you consider you know I think the dose for it is maybe is it three grams mayor, gram and a half?

Something like that. Yeah, three grams 3 grams of six grams. It kind of varies depending on what supplement me, you didn't. Yeah. So I would be curious to know if three grams of it, you know? Would be enough to kick you out. I think that'd be a good thing to test. Yeah, I agree that. Put that on my to-do list. Yeah. What about what about like vitamin D3? There's been a lot of. I think Rhonda.

Patrick came out with a study that indicated, you need a lot more than his generally recommended. Yeah, and that's, especially true. I think vitamin D vitamin D3 something that I've taken for the last probably four years, and that's especially true for people who live and, like, I live in Florida now.

So I get a little more access to son, then a lot of people but, you know, if you're, you know, living up in like I'm Originally from the Midwest and you know, you are you go up there and you talk about, you know, being dark and gloomy for four to six months out of the year. You know, that can lead to a lot of like seasonal depression disorders and have like, you know, there's even a lot of stuff with like, you know, having low vitamin D and testosterone and stuff like

that. So, I'm a big fan of vitamin D. It's, it's kind of one of those ones. Like it's funny when you look up, you know, vitamin, are you look up supplements to take an occasional diet, vitamin D, always pops up and people always kind of wonder why And it's just because if you're trying to optimize your diet your health regardless of what diet you're on, you should be taking vitamin D. What is it? Good like right now I think I'm taking 12 to 5000 IU pills a

day. What is a good number to shoot for? That's a good question you. I don't know if I know the actual efficacious dose for vitamin D. I know that most like, the supplement that I take it comes in. It's a 5000 IU pill but I don't like I don't worry. Not too much because I'm getting, you know, a decent amount of sun down here in Florida. So I've never had to worry about you know, making sure that I'm getting enough. I would have to check that out.

I'm not sure what the efficacious dose is for that. Yeah, it's interesting that I don't know myself impatient has been cut down, but I've got now. I'm trying to just get like a good vitamin D. I've been pretty lacks with my brain changes. Probably picked it up a little bit more and then I don't think I've been pretty like some like creatine monohydrate to as probably be more consistent with that. But I mean honestly Like my supplementation is pretty minimal with keto.

Have you have you dove into adaptogens at all? No. Yeah. So like I'm sure you've heard of have you heard of like ashwagandha and stuff like that? Yeah, I've heard of it. I've kind of, like, I've tried set that has some of it in there, but I've never taken like ashwagandha as a standalone. Yeah. So that's the two.

The two biggest like, or I would say because, you know, before at my supplementation was always centered around, you know, like, like, I still take creatine, I don't really usually We do BCAAs, but it was always like, you know, pre workouts and all that kind of stuff. Now I take a lot of stuff that, you know, it all. So not only does it improve like sports performance, but also has a lot of benefits to health and like, ashwagandha is actually one of my favorite supplements

that I take. So it's like it's an adaptogen that adaptogens basically. Like if you look at their benefits it's a really long list because they can, you know what an adaptogen does is it comes in and like it sounds it adapts to your body. So it kind of Things where you need to wear something, is off and work, and like provide

benefit and it does that. So, it's actually, like, it's been studied extensively for, like, people that are dealing with, like, Stress and Anxiety, but there's also a lot of stuff on improving sleep. It's about large loss stuff on it, increasing my testosterone levels and improving athletic performance. So that's a big one that I take and then another adaptogen I take is Rodeo over Isaiah. So those are the two big ones that I take those every single day. I've taken rhodiola before, and

I like that a lot. Like it's a because I tried to face off of caffeine for a while, and I would try and get something like that, that that stimulates, you know, my my mental Clarity and energy without having the caffeine load and Rodeo like I can tell pretty effective. It was pretty effective. What because I mean some of those like are much higher quality than others, what would be a good recommendation for like an ashwagandha rhodiola

supplement? So though the two, the two been like the best one of the best ashwagandha is, I think are the sensor real ashwagandha and then KSM 66. So KSM. 66 is the only one that I've taken, but it's if you see anything and it has case I'm 66, it means that it has the right percentage of the extracts from the ashwagandha plant because ashwagandha is a plant. So it has the right percentage

of that off the top of my head. I don't know what those percentages are, but if you see KSM 66, that means that it has those percentages. So that's the And a lot of times you won't see that, like sometimes they'll just have the straight plant extract. And if you do, if you just take that, you're not going to be getting enough of the beneficial parts of the of ashwagandha. So I've also heard a lot of good people, talk about like one of my good friends.

Sean Wells talks a lot about like sensor, real ashwagandha as well. I've never taken it, but I can definitely attest to the KSM 66 as being pretty awesome. Check that out for sure. I really like like the the cognitive enhancement, you know, neuro. Like a I use mushrooms are really hot right now. There's a lot of benefits cloud from mushroom. So I'll try like the cordyceps, the, you know, lion's mane, the chaga, like those the for Sigma attic. Coffee of you. Tried that before.

Yeah. So I tried forcing Matt coffee. Like probably it was it was actually about a year ago because I was trying to wean off my caffeine too and I think if I'm not mistaken there's only like 40 milligrams or something like that. Something in there. Yeah. So I was you know, when I was going through grad school, I was I was taking a lot of caffeine to get through the day. Day and everything.

And when I switch to that and I was like in totally impressed with how I felt on it and that really got me into it. And so I've taken the cordyceps chaga and then the lion's mane which I think lion's mane is the one that's becoming most popular now because it's kind of fallen into that, like nootropic Realm. A lot of people are talking about it. I've never taken it as a standalone though, I've only taken those. I actually I take that back.

So I've taken those in the forcing Mac but also have you heard Of, I'm drawing a blank on the company. Now, there's a, there's a company that have you seen the company that does the emulsified MCT oil on it? No, it's not on the on. It has it too. I'm gonna have to look it up now because I want everybody to know about is pretty good. It's but basically what they have a supplement that I came across last year or not last year but last month it actually has ashwagandha.

And I think it's Cordyceps, Mushroom in it. And I think it's, it's also got. It might even have a rhodiola in it, but it's like a really good supplement to take like pre-workout. So I actually just started taking that and I love the, the benefits I've seen from that 12. So cordyceps has its natural force. That's the company natural force. Okay? Yeah. So, they have a couple different products, but, yeah, one of them, they combine ashwagandha with cordyceps, mushroom.

And like, that's not only like a boost for your, for, you know, Clarity and everything but also provides a great athletic boost as well. And describe, like compare the feeling you get with that versus like what you would get from, you know, 200 mg of caffeine pill or like a pre-workout. I think it's a little bit more even Keel and, and not as like

robust. So, you know if you if you take 200 mg of caffeine, you're going to kind of get a spike where you might, you know, feel great for a short period of time, and then you're probably going to have a come down. I've never experienced. That one taking any of these things, it's more sustainable and it's, you know, it's not like, you know, there's not going to be as much Jitters and stuff because it's not as stimulatory as like caffeine is.

So those are I like taking those instead of caffeine? But actually another you know, while we're on that topic. Another great replacement to caffeine is have you ever heard of tea crime? I've heard of it. I'm not used it. I've been I've been meaning to try it. Is there a recommendation video? Yeah, so I know that there's a there's a few Out there and there's there's a couple patented ones, I think T crack has Thea crying. I think it's pronounced via

crying is the cell phone book. T crime is the one. It's the patented version of one of the formulations and there's a lot of really good research out there. Showing that it actually provides similar cognitive and performance benefits as caffeine.

But without like the increases in like heart rate, without like the, you know, increase in like blood pressure and all that stuff, and you actually There's been a lot of research showing that you don't become like desensitized to it like you do caffeine so you don't develop this tolerance to it. Yeah. That's a, if you're trying to wean off of caffeine, I would say that like, three of your

house. A, my three things, if you're trying to wean off, caffeine would probably be like, T crying, rhodiola rosea, and then, like any of those, like lines mean, any of those mushrooms you're talking about? It's crazy. Like, I really like hell. All these companies are kind of moving towards a more holistic, you know, Natural Healthy sustainable. You know supplement list you go back and you look like at the supplements in the late 90s and early 2000.

You'll read the label, just like man this is death in a bottle. Yeah I mean they're able to get it it's regulated a little more. Now the only problem that I still see with a lot of submit companies is you know and it you know from a business standpoint like it obviously makes sense but a lot of times what people do is they just they take those keywords that people know.

I ashwagandha that's really popular right now or, you know, like citrulline or any of these like these Supplements ingredients that are popular, and they'll put them in there. So, to the average person that flips around, they look at the label, wo this, this, this and is in there, but a lot of times, they don't put the efficacious dose in and it's because, you know, it's expensive to do things at high. Like a lot of these more natural ingredients.

Like, you know, if you're doing like Alpha GPC or any of that stuff like those are more expensive than, you know, creatine which is like, you know, pennies to put in something. So a lot of so, you know, I always tell people like if you're looking to get If you're looking at like, you know, product look at what you're trying to get out of it, see what the ingredients are and make sure that there's enough in it before you get it.

Because if you know if not, you're just going to be buying something based on the keywords that they throw on the label exactly. But a couple are getting better now though. You're right. And there's not a third party testing companies which you know, makes it much much more regulated. So let's talk about what you keep on line of supplements because it's this is good. What about MCT powders?

MCT oil owls and you know, you got your, you break it down, you got your C6 e, AC 10, C12 lauric acid there at the bottom, how do you use and Implement that? Yeah, so the biggest thing is I use both so I use MCT. I've actually been using more MCT powder lately than oil, which we can kind of touch on in a second what to look for with that. But I just like it because now they've actually have some like some fleet like the ballistic MCT powder that it's like Burn

everything. So they have some and like Quest has some and you know there's better tasting ones and they can help make your shakes better and everything but I use MCT and coconut oil separately because there's benefits to each one. Coconut oil has a higher percentage of the lauric acid, like you were talking, Which lauric acid is isn't technically an MC. T it actually kind of Falls in that middle ground of an MC t and a long chain triglyceride.

But what what lauric acid does is it provides a lot of benefits. F it for like, antimicrobial, antibacterial antiviral. And there's also system, right? What's that didn't help? Also, like, boost your immune system and whatnot? Yeah, yeah, actually, I definately and there's actually some stuff showing that it can provide a lot of brain benefit, like, dr.

Mary Newport, she has. She's doing a lot of research showing that it can improve what people who are suffering from like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and stuff like that. So, I'll take that for different reasons. But I'll also supplement with like MCT oil. MCT oil powder, which you know, like you said, is more of your C8, your C10. They even have C6 is out there now. But, you know, that's going to have a little bit higher concentration of actual MCTS.

So, you know, that can help give you a little bit more of like a boost and like, your Ketone production. So and then, you know, even based off of that, they actually have like, you know, CH specifically which like, for people who don't know, like ca is going to be more ketogenic than C10. Because it can be more rapidly converted to ketones. At least that's what suggested, there's not a ton of research out on it, but there is a little

bit. So yeah, that's so there's, you know, there's reasons to taking both. I like to incorporate it more. My like, I have like, a little bit of a shake that I like to make, where I'll take. Like, I'll do like bone broth protein or I'm sorry. Collagen protein with like chia seeds, MCT oil powder, and then I'll put like a little bit of coffee in it. That's because that's one of my shakes I make. But that's And the best way that I like to use it.

And then like coconut oil, I really like to put on like, my vegetables. Just to help, like, Flavor those up a little bit. But one of the big things with MCT oil powder, if you're looking at it is when you, when you play a powder, it's just like a like a when you play MCT oil, it's just like, when you do protein, you have to Plate it on something to have it turn into a powder.

Some people actually will use like maltodextrine for their MCT oil powder, which it's going to be in Trace Amounts in there but it's not the most keto friendly. So you want to look at like companies like I know Quest they played it on, I think soluble corn fiber which is a lot more Kyo friendly than maltodextrine. It's actually very cute. So friendly.

So if you're using like an MCT oil powder, you want to make sure that you're checking the label to see what like in that small print at the bottom, what other ingredients are included in. It definitely definitely specially. There's a bunch coming out and like Quest was one of the first that's what I use initially. I don't know what perfect keto Place their zombie. I don't even think they have any carbs in that one. Whereas you get some with the soluble corn fiber.

Yeah, that's right. I don't think they have you. I've tried I've tried their MCT oil powder. I thought was really good. I've tried a couple of their stuff actually and I think it's great but I'm not sure exactly what they use in their request is kind of been my go-to. I really like that one and then you know the ballistic Ketone. I've been using that a little bit too. I think that's a pretty good one. So those are kind of Been the go-to for me, I like the

patterns a lot. I used to use the oils but after I did 4 tablespoons at once, I don't use the oil seem like yeah, I've had some accidents with it too. You know, I've had always tell someone like one time, there's one morning. I was heading out to go play basketball and I didn't have a spoon. So I just took a swig out the bottle and you know, soon as I did it I realized I took too much and I paid for it later.

Yeah. But one of the interesting thing that we touched a little bit earlier one the interesting things that's coming out the MCT oil now is actually They have a most defied MCT oil which blends better with like coffee and in Hot Products. So like the natural force.

Like I was talking, I saw them at paleo FX and I got to try some of their stuff and they actually have a flavored MCT oil that emulsifies in. So I think the one I tried was French vanilla so you can actually put like french vanilla MCT in your coffee and rather than it like sitting on top. Like most times when you put MCT on your coffee it actually Blends in well with it. Like that's pretty good.

Yeah it's pretty. I like I liked it a lot and I mean shoot if it tastes good that's a lot better just to blend oil flavor for sure. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, what about we're going to have to segue into? I won't talk about college in a little bit, so, do you. You said you use collagen peptides, do you like that? I mean, what are you using it for mostly joints pop? Yeah, so I like it because, for one, I mean, to be honest, one of my biggest reasons for using

it is, I like to have a shake. In the middle of the day, just as kind of like a keep myself feeling full in between meals and stuff like that. And I've just really like the way that I feel when I take the collagen, but there's a ton of benefits to college in with, like an improving, you know, your skin, Health hair, all of that stuff that I really like. But, you know, previously at least in my experience is collagen protein. I've never.

Tasted very good. But now there's, there's some pretty good tasting ones out there, so it's kind of more for me. It's something that I you, I know that there's a lot of help. Benefits to it. But I like to use it because, you know, it's going to be a lot more keto friendly than some of the other protein powders. Yeah, for sure, Crystal has been making them like she'd been making these fat bombs and she'll put the collagen in the fat bomb, along with her, like, Branch chain, amino acid,

powders, and everything. So it's all in the fat bomb and so, it's wow, pretty easy and convenient. Yeah, I was, you know, I've actually never cooked with it, how does it? How does it mixer? How does it cook compared to like way? Because I know, like ways easier to cook with them, like, I think ways easier to cook with them, like casein is Elgin pretty easy

to do stuff with. Yeah, I don't know because I mean with some stuff like way you reach a certain temperature and it destroys the the way you know molecule. So you're not really going to get the benefit. I don't know what the temperature is with collagen, but with like the fat bombs, it's all just Frozen. So I would assume that would help you know, that refined. So yeah she like mix that with like some cream cheese or some almond butter, put some of the branched-chain amino acid

powders in there. And then you know it tastes like a packet of Stevie or truvy or something. It tastes fine, that's all. Mmm, delicious. Oh, is that the sweetener you guys? Usually use that you use like Stevia. Yeah, we'll get like a little trivia packets and I don't really use them that much, but she will also show add, you know, two packets to a coffee or whatever. But it's just a blend of stevia and erythritol, which I haven't had any negative impact from some people.

I've got a pretty good tolerance so I can handle sucralose really well. Like, I've never had any negative effects from sucralose. I don't do the ace K or anything like that, but Splenda erythritol monk fruit. Steve you have all been fun with yeah, yeah I agree. What about let's talk let's go deep down the rabbit hole of exogenous ketones because that's super hot right now and yeah and honestly I don't know where I stand on that because like I

didn't mind my prep. I got down to three and a half percent body fat never once touched it. So I know you can get lean without using them and you know, one of the arguments now is that if you're supplementing with things Legends ketones in the primary goal is to get leaner, it might minimize your bodies. Zone ability to, you know, produce ketones and burn, fat oxidation. So I don't know if, if that's the case or what your take is on

then. Yeah. So you know, anytime you like her right now, it's kind of, it's a little bit tough to talk about in the keto Community because like, if for a lot of people like there's this divide of like this whole key do you have to do, you know, Whole Foods. Don't use any of these types of products and there's a people that are the other end of the extreme and use these products and don't follow a great kid

drank diet. When you fall in the middle, what happens is both sides end up wanting to crucify. You, but really, that's where I fall is kind of in the middle on it, there's benefits to taking Exotics ketones and there's a, you know, there's a lot of therapeutic benefits and a lot of research on the benefits of Exotics ketones. But when you talk specifically about weight loss, everybody likes to look at it as being black and white.

So and why that becomes difficult because my personal take on it is, Know, if you're going into a training session and you take exoticness ketones before your training session. Yes, you might not have to burn as much fat during that training session because you are providing yourself with exotic substrate, you know. It would be no different than if

you were to eat a big bowl. So fat before you train, if that's readily available, you might not have to burn as much fat in that training session, but if Exotics ketones are increasing your energy and they increase your ability to, you know, get at work out more. Tensley then they may help you burn more fat. And even outside of that, there's a ton of research with like exhaustion is ketones.

Being able to increase like mitochondrial biogenesis which is basically just like the creation of mitochondria and your and your the, you know, it's creating more mitochondria in your body and when you can do that, that increases your capacity to burn fat. So a lot of people want to look like, you know, even if you were to end, it hasn't been looked at, but even if you were to measure fat, Burning and take exaggerated ketones and see that acutely in the three hours, you

take them. You don't burn as much fat. That doesn't mean that you're not making physiological adaptations. That allow for better fat burning long-term. So my biggest thing with them is that I think that they're not necessary. They're not a requirement if you're doing keto but they can be just like everything else we were talking about.

They can be a great supplement to a kid Jank diet, depending on what your goal is, if you're trying to exercise more So, they can probably help with that, you know, if you're looking for a way to increase, like your mental acuity or, you know, mental focus and all that stuff, they'll probably provide a lot

of benefit with that. But if you're looking to use them as like a replacement to a following a ketogenic diet nutritionally, then then, you know, you're definitely not taking the right approach with them. Yeah, I think I think the mistake people make is they put too much emphasis on it and you know, I mean, the whole theory of you can eat whatever you want, drink a drink and then be in ketosis. Osis and 60 Minutes like that, that kind of gripes me every time I hear, you know.

Yeah. And you know and the reason why is because like it's just like what we talked about the beginning of the show. It's like that they're not wrong in saying that it gets you into ketosis but it's a difference between being in ketosis and being fat adapted and take the like 100%. I've tested it myself. You can take these products and have an increase in Ketone levels in your blood but that does not mean that you are in ketosis if you're not following the diet.

But, you know, one of the interesting things that these things Can be used for, and I'm not a huge user of them like I use them. You know, every once in a while, I've never been a regular user of them. But, you know, one of the things I do think could be really beneficial is. When you first start keto, they may be a great addition to help get you over the hump.

If you're somebody who's insulin resistant or having a hard time producing ketones taking them, maybe something that for one it provides you with some ketones that might make you you know, lower like Brain fog and reduce like keto, flu symptoms, but to there's a lot of research out there showing that having increased blood Ketone levels will help like upregulate the Transporters that are responsible for bringing ketones

into the cell. So if you can, you know, if you first start keto, if you can get your Ketone levels Higher by taking usages ketones, you may be able to adapt quicker. And, you know, that's been something that if I like I never push them on anybody that I work with. But if somebody is interested in Kick them. That's how I'll always kind of like in a vowel.

That's how I'll kind of like segue into it and tell them how they should be taking them is because you know, using them as like kind of an adjunct to get you through that adaptation period. But you know like you said it's they're not a necessity though. I think they're indirectly good again to Q2 flu simply because they're all bound to minerals. You know you get your sodium potassium calcium, which most people don't take in enough of of when they're getting adapted.

So by default you're going to be getting more sodium potassium and you're going to that's going to minimize the effects of chi to flow as well. Yeah. And that's exactly right and that's why I like sometimes when people they do take it and they, you know, talk about how great they felt like during the adaptation period that could be from the electrolytes because like sodium electric deficiencies in particular. Sodium deficiencies.

In my opinion, from what I've seen are one of the biggest reasons for like Tito flu because there's so many likes. In terms of having like, sodium deficiency is, which is very, very, it's almost a guarantee that it's going to happen when you start keto and so that's yeah. I like you said, that's another great way to get those those in without having to just like pour a lot of salt on your food and stuff. It's kind of a good addition to

the ketones. Now what kind of sodium potassium calcium or these these exogenous ketones Bounty? Because I mean like all sodium's aren't created equal, right? You get your iodized table salt, you got your pink Himalayan salt. Like is there a difference in quality between the minerals that these He's exhausted ketones are bound to or they all same across the board.

That's a great question. I don't know that I know the exact answer to that, but I know that when you look at these products when they list on the back there just listing sodium as just na as sodium. Yeah, I you know, that's a good question. I don't know what they're actually using if they're using any of the patented ones. Like I know there's like there's go BHP and I think there's some other like patented versions of the ketones. Any of those I'm sure you could actually look up and see

exactly. They're using. But if they're just using like beta-hydroxybutyrate bound to sodium, calcium, potassium. I don't know that you could even tell what type that they're using. Yeah. Since it's not, that's a good point. That's actually something. I'm probably gonna start researching now because I'm really curious about that. I didn't think about that.

Yeah. Because I mean, I don't even know if this is possible, but if you had like a negligence Ketone Mountain like pink Himalayan salt. That'd be the way to go. Actually, you know, that's in her. I know a couple people that are, you know, pretty well rehearsed and the and The biochemistry realm. I'm not quite as well rehearsing that, but I actually something I want to ask is that would be. That's a really interesting thing that you bring up.

Well, if you find anything out, and that's going to be our business Endeavor. Right there, we're going to make a nice. I just keep telling men to Pink. So, I have to remove this portion of the segment, so, somebody doesn't steal our idea. Yeah, you heard it here first people. So what about the difference between, you know, exoticness ketones in the form of the ketones? Salts versus the Esters, which are not really in full production mode now, but they're

making. Pretty good waves and getting out there. Yeah, so for a while, one of the biggest things was that like the Esters were not palatable at all. I had tried the Esters previously and they were horrible. I mean, like you I think, was it, I forget who the person that it was on, like, Tim Ferriss podcast. Talk about how they taste, like, jet fuel, Peter TM was Peter. It's yeah. So Peter teeth like a hundred percent. That's what they taste like.

Like it's one of the worst. Seeing things that you can ever have but I have had some more palatable versions but the other problem with the Esters is they've always been so expensive like a shot of them is that before Ike? I mean the numbers for how much it cost for to make them and then like what you'd have to sell them for was just astronomical what I've seen now is that, you know, there is some stuff showing that like the salts can increase levels of ketones. Similarly to the Esters.

There's a lot of And fourth right now. Between some of the top keto doctors out there or the keto researchers out there talking about how, you know, one might be more closely mimicking what is produced naturally in the body and the other one isn't. So maybe the one is safer than the other. It seemed like done. Racemic, a land deal. Yep, that's exactly, right. Yeah. I didn't know how deep we want to go down the rabbit hole on that.

But yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, the thing is, they actually they've now been able to formulate the salt too. To be more closely mimicking, the mimicking, the Esther. So it's really hard to say there's kind of a big divide but ultimately, the thing is, as the Esters are still pretty expensive to take. I'm pretty certain sure. The last Esther I tried, I was still told that it was like somewhere like a fifty to a hundred dollar shot.

So how like if I was in the lab and you were making this Ester, like, what happens like what? What goes into play here to make an ester? That's a good question. I don't know the esterification process. Well, that would be another question. I'd have to ask like, one of my biochemistry buddies, but yeah, it's something that I researched at one point, but I don't know if I wouldn't consider myself to be an expert on being able to

explain that. But it's, it's different than like, when you when you talk about like the salts like those are their binding, the the BHP molecule to a carrier molecule like the sodium, the calcium potassium, all that stuff, but I'm not 100% certain on how the Esterification process works for those. It's interesting. What about like, when you when you took yours, what did you notice in differently? How do you feel with it? So when I took it, I noticed that it was a, how much did you

take? That's a good question. I want to say when I took it because I've taken it, I've taken it a couple times. I think I've taken 10 grams of it before, and then I tried it recently at a conference and I didn't I didn't. It was a shot that was pre-made. So I didn't know the amount that was in it but what I noticed was it was definitely a more robust change initially but I didn't

notice as long-lasting. But the other thing is that a lot of the Just Ketone products out there that are salts are combined with other things, like caffeine or things that may make those a little bit longer let the feeling a little bit longer lasting as opposed to the Esther just being the Esther. So that was kind of what I know is. But I did notice like, I mean, my Ketone mobile shot through

the roof. They were turned back to Baseline pretty quickly, but I did notice kind of like that you feeling of euphoria from taking it. Yeah, I I took 60 grams. So, pretty good. Pretty good dose and I noticed Just like a warming sensation throughout my boards. You did you feel that way? Yeah, definitely. It's it's almost like I'm trying to think about it to be honest. It's not too much different than

taking a shot of alcohol. Like a kind of reminds me of like intake, like whiskey or something like you get that feeling again. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, not necessarily in a bad way like not making you feel sick or anything. But you, dude, I definitely do. Remember getting that feeling when I took it. Yeah, I mean my ketones went from like I think point for 24 in like It was crazy.

Yeah. And then, but then, they, that's what I've noticed is that like I think like if you were to look at a graph and, you know, this is just speculation, but I think you would see that, like, you know, the Esther might go straight up more like this but then the, you know, the, the salts might be more like this, more of like a subtle change but then eventually, there, I think the peak is pretty similar on both of them. But it also is probably

dependent on the individual. Yeah. And probably in, there's so many variables at play, like, what you're doing with that time that you've taken it. It etcetera, Etc. Yum. So what battle of supplements in that had talked about? Okay? Is there any other that you recommend or our youth? Yeah, so I guess the only other ones that I use right now are other than, like, the adapters is. Like, I talked about, I take a

couple times a week. I take a nighttime formula where it's I take a blend of its magnesium 3 and 8, which is supposed to be the, the type of magnesium. That's You're more specific to like, aiding in your sleep. That, you know, a lot of times being deficient magnesium can be wide. Some people report, not getting great sleep on keto, so I take a blend of that with Gaba and a very low dose of Melatonin, but I only take that about three times a week. It's just our two or three times

a week. It's just when I'm trying to get like real deep sleep so that that's kind of one of. That's three of my supplements. I take in my night stack and I also add 5-HTP to it. Have you ever taken 58 HTTP. And so 5-HTP is it's a precursor to serotonin so it can be like for the reason why I take it is that it can help with sleep. It can kind of help with like relaxing you a little bit giving you like you can help get you in like a deeper state of sleep and

stuff. So I take about 200 mg of that before I go to bed, that was something that was recommended to me, by Sean Wells, actually recommended that taking that one to me. So that that's kind of the other ones that I take. But other than that, I think that's that's pretty much the primary ones that I take. Let's check out the 5-HTP. I, I've used melatonin, but I always feel so much more groggy the next day with no. Its own even in low doses. Yeah, so I try and not do that

so much. I've noticed though, that when I'm keto I don't need as much sleep. Like six hours is better than eight hours when I had carbs, but yeah, I've been used to have trouble falling asleep. The the leaner, I get the less I sleep for whatever reason, but I'm not been having trouble sleeping. Now, I've had, I've had trouble waking up. I think it's because it's high protein, a much more tired in the mornings for whatever reason.

Yeah, yeah, no. That's, that's something that I, there's actually, like a lot of reasons why you may require a lot less sleep on keto, but for me, it's like, I know I work a little bit of a crazy schedule, and I like to work late at night, so I only take it, like, I play basketball, 3 days a week in the morning at like, 5:00 in the morning. So, I won't take it before that because I'll either miss my alarm at that time in the morning. Or I'll be too groggy to want to do anything.

So I'll only anytime I take like gabo or melatonin I'm taking it you know on a night where I can get a full eight hours of sleep and but you know, same thing though. I've definitely noticed it. Like, I don't require nearly as much sleep on keto that I used to. Yeah, that's good. How you doing on time? I don't know what your schedule is. Like I'm good. Whatever you need man. I'm here. All right. Sweet. I love to dive into you play basketball. I'm a bodybuilder.

I love to talk. I mean, there's a whole lot of research out there for Ernst athletes using Ketone and I mean that's pretty much undisputable. I think I think I mean you start tapping into that greater fuel reserve. It just makes sense from an insurance perspective when it comes to, you know, hypertrophy and muscle growth. I'd love to kind of go into the Weeds about what the science is

showing, you know, as ketones. You know, are used for that because like I don't know near as much science you don't, and so I'd love to just get your piano, like, you know, testosterone precursor, that's cholesterol and your cholesterol is likely going to be higher with ketones, the ketogenic diet because you're in taking more fat. So, in theory, you know, it makes sense. You that more that growth hormone, but what else from like

a hypertrophy standpoint. Yeah, so there's actually a lot of research out there showing, you know, before we go straight into muscle building, we could talk about muscle sparing muscle. Sparing is one of the primary features of a ketogenic diet It's kind of why you see people being being able to go pretty hypo caloric and still being able to maintain muscle mass while they're losing fat. So ketones themselves are actually able to.

There's research showing that they can actually prevent the breakdown of like leucine and other muscle proteins. So you know, having a ketones available and being in a state of ketosis is going to make it. So your body doesn't have to dip into those muscle proteins and it's going to, you know, prevent you from losing muscle mass, you know, while you're going through like a diet In Phase, which is one of the reasons.

Why, so great for somebody like yourself doing bodybuilding and somebody that's dieting down, you know, if you have to go hypochlorite and your training and everything it's going to make it. So you don't lose a ton of muscle mass which you know, as being a natural body builder. That can be a primary concern real quick. One of the biggest concerns that hear from other competitors as I was doing this was you know carbs or muscle sparing carbs

and muscle sparing. Yeah carbs are muscle sparing but I would argue that you know fat and ketones is even more muscle sparing. Yeah, so I mean the biggest thing you have to consider when you do that is that you have a limited carb storage. So you know, if you're dieting down on a show and everything and you know, most people they do is they take their carbs down really low.

So if you're getting your carbs down low and you don't have great glycogen stores and stuff you're not you're going to have a much more limited availability of that compared to your fat stores, which even as a lean individual, you're going to have, you know, a lean individual plus eating a ketogenic diet. With a lot of exhaustion is fat, you're going to have plenty of substrate to produce. Ketones which can be muscle sparing.

So that's kind of the reason why I think that they're better, you know. Yeah. Carbohydrates could have that same effect but you're going to have to eat them in abundance, which isn't going to be most optimal for what you're trying to do with your body composition. Exactly. Yeah. And then, you know, to go the other wreck route. Now, talk about muscle building, it's difficult because there hasn't been much research showing in, this is why what you're doing is so interesting.

There hasn't been a lot of research showing being in a calorie Surplus. I'm Quito. Which I don't necessarily think is crucial for hypertrophy on keto because I've seen I've been in a calorie deficit and I've deck sudden seen increases in muscle mass and myself in a calorie deficit. But there's also research out there showing that ketones have the ability to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. So, you know, not only are they limiting the breakdown of protein.

But they're also increasing muscle protein synthesis, which is great because you know uncaging diet if you're going. True Quito and your lower protein, you may not be stimulating muscle protein synthesis from like the protein in your diet. So the problem is, is there hasn't been much research to back it up. There has there's been virtually None, Shall you know, looking at people and a surplus. So it's kind of more of a self

experimentation thing. But I can tell you like, from even a team like the ketogenic.com platform when we post stuff talking about, like the muscle building effects of Quito and like we get really Really, really strong feedback from people who have been doing keto for a long time, talking about how they seen tremendous gains in their muscle mass.

You know is it going to be you know for like somebody like yourself doing bodybuilding isn't going to be as robust as as somebody who's taking, you know, testosterone or taking, you know, steroids and stuff? No, but for somebody who's doing things naturally, it can be a great way to maintain and build

muscle mass. And and I haven't had the ability to like just test this throughout my whole process but like my reasoning is Is that, I mean, if you're eating carbohydrates, the insulin is produced, I'm an insulin is an extreme growth factor, you know? So you're going to you're going to cause muscle growth with that you're going to. I mean, some people shoot up and slim just to grow muscle, you know? But you're going to have fat

growth as well. So, I mean, everything grows the instant cancer cell growth, I mean everything and correct me if I'm wrong any this, but what with with ketones with ketones, I mean I'm building muscle and I might not be building muscle at quite the same rate that I would with carbohydrates. But when I cut down, I'm going to be maintaining that whereas, if I was eating much carbs and cut down, I'd have to tap in and

lose some of that muscle. So over time, I feel like while I may not be gaining, it is fast. I'm still trending Upward at a faster rate than if I was to go up and down, cycle it with you, no carbs, through a bulk and cut season. Exactly. Yeah, no. 100%, And that's, that's why I think that Quito is almost like the perfect couple with, with bodybuilding. It's just, it's so hard because a lot of people, you know, the bodybuilding space, they don't want to be as restricted.

And, you know, obviously when you start talking about, you know, getting in like, you know, taking drugs and stuff that can increase your muscle mass diet doesn't become as important. But for somebody who's like trying to do things naturally, I think he knows the perfect storm for a because not only is it going to be great for maintaining leanness in your off season it's going to allow you to like you said diet down and maintain or maybe even build muscle mass.

There's been a lot of stuff showing that being in a calorie deficit on keto, isn't going to be as harmful to your metabolism as being in a calorie deficit on another diet. There's also a lot of stuff showing that the, you know, typically when you diet, you see a big increase in your hunger hormones, which is the reason why it's so hard to maintain weight loss because your hunger hormones are going crazy but there's actually a lot of research showing that occasional

diet. Attenuates that increase in hunger hormones, so it's kind of The Perfect Storm for you being able to come off of Of like a show prep and not be setting because, you know, most people come off the show prep and they're setting themselves up for Rapid fat gain, like it's almost enough about Cravings or high, hungers up metabolism is down, you know, their insulin resistant probably. So that that's that's a great way.

And then also, when you talk about keto post competition, like you were touching on earlier with like, having fat for like hormone production, there's a lot of research out there showing like bodybuilders and you know, their hormones just tanking post competition. So, you know, being on a ketogenic diet may also be able to help with the after-effects of a show. So I think it's really The Perfect Storm. And I mean, I agree completely.

That's that's why I'm set up to do this for the rest of my life. But I mean, like, it's crazy because so many people in that Niche, they just want, you know, Cycles are limited, you know,

they're not patient. So like yeah, they might get on keto for like, you know, a month or two prior to competition, a, to lose some body fat, but they're not even beginning to tap into the full potential of the diet and most people don't think in terms of What's the best thing for me over the course of the next five, ten fifteen twenty years. And I mean my way of thinking right now is like, I'm 26.

I'm he turned 26 this month. I'm thinking if I stay keto continue to train hard, Candida diet clean, you know, I'll be freaking Untouchable in 15 years, you know, and that's just kind of the way I'm going about it. So yeah, I mean, and like a lot of people like, you know, of course you can, you can die down and you can get lean, you can do it through taking things or doing different things.

Like you can do it without it, but when you talk about like sustainability and actually looking at your health, like, one of the biggest things in the fitness industry is a lot of people have lost sight of that. It's become more about Aesthetics and not just about health and that's kind of what I really like about. Kiito's, that you can have both. Yeah, you don't have to, you don't have to sacrifice your health to look good. And you don't have to sacrifice

looking good for your health. You can do both. And, you know, that's something that unfortunately, when you start looking at like social media, Tia and stuff on Jean all these different platforms. You start seeing that that's almost been lost, and that's why I think he do so great. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, when if a competitor was to truly believe that not only would their performance benefit, but I mean, their health as well. I mean, it's just there's no question about it, man.

That's just the best alternative for sure. Absolutely. What about you know? Much about like a, you know, hormones as it relates to male and female because I mean I've got both male and female clients and they both Tend to react much differently. So I'd love to get your take on on how the difference is, you

know, compare their with keto. Yeah, so a lot of times you know for males at least I've seen a lot of positive changes in hormones for males but one of the things that happens is the people that you'll see reporting like - changes in their hormones are people that either weren't following it strictly or they were people who were doing like taking like a cyclic approach. Or you know, doing taking some approach where they weren't being as strict as they should have been.

I've seen great things from myself, from other people with with hormones, from doing keto, not females. One of the issues that comes into it is because like one of the reasons why you won't see a ton of research on females with the stuff is because I mean they changed daily. You know, they're almost like physiologically. They're almost a different person every day with with the fluctuations in their hormones. So it's hard to study this.

But you start seeing, there's a lot of people that are using like ketogenic diet and they're able to get pregnant and they weren't able to before, or they were suffering from PCOS, they were suffering from all these different things and they start

seeing awesome stuff on keto. And I think what tends to happen with females is that they start to get a little bit more balance in their hormones and they start not to see like you know as like maybe their menstrual cycle, start to become a little bit more balanced out. I've seen that with a lot of clients but The problem is, is a lot of females don't get that far because when they start that drastic diet change can lead to a lot of hormone fluctuations and it can make things go a

little haywire. And then most women get either discouraged or a little freaked out and they quit. I'm sure you've seen that with a lot of your clients to but it's just kind of one of those things like, you know, you got to stick with it because there's a lot of anecdotal stuff out there about women who tried for six years to get pregnant. They did keto for six months and next thing they knew they were

able to get pregnant. So I mean I think that it's great for them but you know, the thing is, is the fluctuations in the hormones. For women could be one of the reasons why it may be harder for a woman for a girl to get in ketosis. I know we've talked about that a little bit before about, you know, sometimes like you probably see with your female clients that, you know, getting into a state of ketosis is a little more difficult than men,

right? It takes a little bit longer and they don't tend to see the rapid weight loss as quickly because it's just simply taking longer for their hormones to regulate. Yeah. That's exactly right. So, I mean and that's really nothing new.

I mean, if you look at, you know, any diet like it guys, usually respond a lot better than women and like I said that's just because, you know, they're just different everyday, like they have, you know, their Cravings that they're having that, you know, for a guy might be attenuated just by getting in a state of ketosis, that might not happen for a girl because of fluctuations in their hormones. There's there's a lot of things

that can factor into that. So, you know, it can definitely be a little more difficult when you first start out. But I Like the hormonal benefits for a woman on keto are definitely robust. Yeah, she can't stick with it. Yeah. What about cholesterol? Do you know, much about cholesterol as relates to Quito? Because I know I mean, it seems to really I mean with Quito and with any other that relates so much based off the individual, like my numbers have all improved and probably get

testing in the end of this much. Just to keep a pulse on it. But, you know, a lot of people, their LDL will increase but that's not necessarily indicative of a bad thing with keto. If all other markers Haven't proved, right? Yeah. So one of the things and like you said, perfectly, it's different for everybody because I've seen both scenarios, some people you'll see their total to start their total cholesterol. Go down on keto and you'll see that it's they're seeing an

increase in HDL. A decrease in LDL sometimes you'll see total cholesterol go up and while still seeing an increase in HDL and a decrease in LDL it's just that the HDL is increasing to a greater extent which is driving Of the total cholesterol. Sometimes you do see an increase in LDL cholesterol, and I don't know, the reason why that happens in some people. But one of the biggest things that people fail to consider is they're not looking at particle

size when you do that. So vldl, which is, which is a sub particle of LDL is actually a better indicator of like atherosclerosis and all of these other like cardiovascular diseases. That is what a lot of people, what I've seen in like, dr. Volks research is that he'll see that, like total cholesterol goes uphill, see an increase in HDL and increase in LDL, but a decrease in vldl, which is a

better indicator. So, the problem is is if you go and get blood work done, vldl is more expensive to test. And in fact, most times they don't even test LDL. What they test is, they do total cholesterol, then they'll do HDL, and then they'll just subtract the two because it's more expensive for them to do that. So it definitely is. It depends on the person. I've seen all three of those scenarios where, you know, I've

seen each one of those happen. One of the theories out there, also on y, LD, L increases is that the body is trying to maintain a certain ratio of HDL to LDL. So, while your HDL increases on keto, your LDL has to increase as well. So you do see that sometimes too, but you know, that doesn't necessarily not as those readings aren't as bad as what they used to be back in the day when they used to. Just think, you know, total cholesterol is high. That puts you at a higher risk

for heart attacks and stuff. That's definitely not the case. Yeah, I don't remember what lecture was that. Listen to basically ever saying that, you know, LDL becomes like energy Transporters and then as you're, you know, eating a higher fat ratio, you have more energy to be transported. So it by default is going to be increased. Yeah, which makes you act like this. No, it definitely makes sense. I mean, that's-- and that's-- there. Why you might see the big

difference? To is that not everybody goes, you know, as high fat on keto, some go higher than others. Some people, you know, may be utilizing more stored fat for Ketone production versus, you know, the dietary fat and everything. So that all that stuff plays a role. But I think getting blood work is definitely one of the best things that you can do because it's hard to know what's going on your body without getting

that done. And you know, there's definitely different ways to optimize your ketogenic diet based on those results. So you want to always be getting that stuff looked at. So you're not just going to kind of Just so, you know, searching in the dark for what you should do. So if somebody test and they have an elevated LDL, what are some other markers look forward to kind of like ease, the stress levels anxiety.

Like if they have, you know, more of the, The Fluffy larger LDL particles and I always tell them to look for C-reactive protein to. Yeah, that's a big one too. C reactive protein is great but I think that if you're looking at your HDL and you're looking at your vldl, those are going to

be important. So if you're seeing that vldl is is Going in the right direction and HDL is going up, that's going to help you better be a have a better indication of what's going on rather than just looking at LDL. Because like you said that numbers, you know, it may have to go up based on the changes in the diet. But C reactive protein is also a great one.

And I think like looking at like different like, you know, looking at any markers of like, inflammation can also be beneficial because, you know, that's kind of, that's a lot of those things go hand-in-hand. And, you know, if you're doing the ketogenic, Well, you should be reducing inflammation. So that's something to consider to yeah for sure. So much. Someone's interesting science going on man. It's exciting, it's exciting.

Yeah. Well I could literally talk to you all day long - it's been an hour and 25 minutes in this far though. So my time at kind of here for anybody doesn't want the three hour version right Lily no I do for you know if you ever wanna hop on do another one? You know I'd be more than happy to come back. Well for Sherman we get we got all kinds of stuff to talk about. So where can people go to find out more about you. All right.

So, yes, I have, you know, I like I said earlier, I'm the director of content for kids nick.com. So I have, you know, we have social media, we on Instagram and Facebook, we have at ketogenic calm and then we have our website, ketogenic.com. And then I also have a personal page, which is the key to ologist, you know, I mostly just on Instagram for that one. So it's just at the cute ologist. So, that's, that's pretty much and, you know, on there there's I have access to my email.

So I always tell people if you have questions or want. To reach out about anything. You know, feel free to drop it in there. I'm not always quickest to respond. Well, you know, I'll try to get to everybody's stuff as quick as I can. Awesome. Awesome. I love it. Will Chris man. Always a pleasure. Appreciate learn something every single time. Talk to you. All right, well, thanks a lot for having me today. Robert absolutely man, take care.

To reach out about anything. You know, feel free to drop it in there. I'm not always quickest to respond. Well, you know, I'll try to get to everybody's stuff as quick as I can. Awesome. Awesome. I love it. Will Chris man. Always a pleasure. Appreciate learn something every single time. Talk to you. All right, well, thanks a lot for having me today. Robert absolutely man, take care.