What's going on? Ladies and gents Roberts? Thanks. Kiddo, Savage.com. And in today's episode, This is actually Mike muscles podcast for high-intensity health. He had me on his show a couple times. The first one the video didn't work. So we had the audio. This one is the second retake, so I'm not really sure what I'm gonna do. I'm not publish them both because they were both great but they're going to be some
overlap, not really sure. But all that to say this was a great conversation that I had with Mike on his podcast, we do into my book, we do into my dining philosophy and how to lean out and do. A competition prep with a ketogenic approach. We talked about making the whole process sustainable. We talked about a little bit of everything. I've got utmost respect for Mike muscle and all he does, he is great at assimilating, very complex information and put it out there.
So if you're not already following him and subscribe to his podcast, you are missing out hundred percent do that. And then without further Ado, sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Mike and myself on his podcast. Robert, what's happening script to be back with you again.
I would love to pick your brain about your new book, ketogenic bodybuilding, and we've talked a lot in the past before about different strategies for preserving muscle, is you diet down and lose body fat and you have a lot of great sort of ways to explain this caloric Runway. And the reason why you got into the kicker genic died in the first place and how you continue to use this in your 14-year career as a natural body builder. Let's just sort of back up a
little bit. I know you've explained this to me before, just so everyone knows where you're coming from you. Bend your body building for about 7 years and then you start to learn more about the ketogenic diet. You tried it and you haven't turned back. And now you wrote this great book and you're helping other people realize that they can burn fat and preserve lean mass at the same time.
And it works out a little bit better long-term with After the contest is over, but you don't have all those cravings and so forth. So what is it about the ketogenic diet that got you interested in the first place? Yeah, man, so I don't know like when I first started doing it, the ketogenic diet. I didn't anticipate it being
effective for bodybuilding. I just did that as a way to kind of circumnavigates all of my disordered eating Tennessee's that I was struggling with as a result of my traditional bodybuilding nutrition protocol with the high carbs, sugary foods and just eating so frequently. So, for me, when I started doing key do all that. That was more or less mitigated, and that alone made it worth my, while worthwhile for me to do a kidney diet.
But then after I had done it for a few years, I decided to compete with a kitchenette approach and in doing so I found out that I was able to preserve lean mass just as effectively if not more. So my Hunger signaling was much
more regulated. So I wasn't having, I'm still hungry, you're going to be hungry, no matter what that you're following, but it wasn't the like just total ravenous, you know, Sensation that I was experiencing before hand, but the main difference honestly was that After the show is over. I didn't have near the tendency to binge and Purge on everything inside. Like I had done previously.
So I was able to kind of short circuit and bypass a lot of the disordered eating 10, see, is that most competitive struggle with coming out of the show and into the reverse diet. Yeah. I definitely want to get get into reverse dieting but you mentioned, the post-show sort of binging and craving them. And I know this is a phenomenon.
I sort of experience this in college when I got into just lifting in general and so forth, you do a little cut and then you like, I remember I was Cold Stone ice cream. Like I just crave that and now I couldn't care less about that now and of course know a lot more about nutrition but it seems that there's something that gravitates people. Once you go into a caloric deficit that you're much more prone to then want to Crave these, Ultra palatable processed
sugar and rich foods. And so that's I think a great sort of selling point or future or at least consideration, when, when trying to lose body fat, which approach you want to take, you know, the classic calories in calories out knowing Potentially, you could create these fruits or the ketogenic approach. What do you think? It is about the ketones? Is it that they suppress appetite that you're just more, you're eating cleaner Foods?
Because let's face it. I mean you eat mostly meat eggs and keto bricks and good fats and so forth. Is it? This is Heidi aspect of it. What what have you sort of thought with regards to? Why that doesn't happen when you lose weight via a ketogenic approach. Yeah. I think it's hard for me to differentiate between what of this phenomenon is physiological. And what Logical. But I feel like a lot of it is
definitely psychological. And I feel like in the day, the diet that you find most sustainable is probably going to be your best bet. But when you remove all that heavily processed, highly, palatable carbohydrates from the palette to begin with, it's no longer an option in your psyche. Like, you don't come out of that show, feeling like you've sacrificed these foods for so long and then just feel compelled to consume them when I'm done with the show.
I go to a Brazilian steakhouse and I go to town and all the meats and fats and that I've got options, you know, available to me, but that doesn't like, That fills my cup just as much as eating a bunch of, you know, sugary Foods would. So by doing that, I'm able to kind of, you know, bypass all the negative effects that come with that rebound.
I mean most competitors. Post-show they'll just indulge in everything inside 24 like a, you know, a weekend or freaking months in and you know months in a surplus and when you do that depending on how far off the rails, you go, you may put on a few pounds, you may put on 20 or 30 pounds.
I put on 20 pounds after my first show and like two days and that's From a psychological standpoint, really wrecks, havoc on how you think about yourself and what you're capable of because you just spent, you know, four to six months being the epitome of discipline dedicated hard work.
And now you have a trouble, you know, moderating anything, and it just kind of rips the the it rips your, your approach to nutrition totally off of your kilter and you don't know what to do. Whereas if you can bypass a lot of vent and never have that as an option to begin with. But then just simply stick to what, you know, has led to your success thus far, you're much more likely to moderate. Add and keep it within a consistent, you know, tolerable range. Yeah, that's a great approach.
And one of the things that gravitated you towards natural bodybuilding, you've told me is that you're doing this for your health, right? And so this massive swing. Okay, so you get really cut you get lean, you get down. Did you say 3% or 4%? I can't remember those, Salinas, you been the lowest I've ever clocked my stuff in. It was like, 3.2%, I want to say and I think that was via I'm not sure if that was via calipers or via.
An in-body and those, there's some inaccuracies that occur with those obviously, but that was the lowest I've ever been. I mean, I've got, you know striated glutes at that point. Like there's not much fat on you and your sub five percent body fat. That's insane. I mean that is especially doing that.
Naturally. I mean, that is really, really impressive and where I was going with that is when you go from 3 percent, maybe back to 20% in a month like you mentioned the example of a competitor who gains 20 30 pounds and this is not uncommon. I mean if you follow some Fitness competitors and bodybuilders on social media, you will Massive, Ebbs and flows. And one thing that you spoken about is that massive Delta is probably not good for your health.
I mean you're retaining water, your blood pressure probably increases. There's probably other issues psychologically, glucose regulation the whole thing, right? So now obviously you have to gain some offseason, you know, weight, but doing it on a keto diet, you definitely gain, you know, about you said about 20 pounds. You're within 20 pounds of your yeah. Stage, wait, I think that's a
little bit more reasonable. In terms of the Delta that you want to shift from, now the questions that I have for you there is does that affect your, your resting metabolic rate and so forth, like all of that that shifting around right? You lose weight. You gained 30 pounds lose it. How does that affect your metabolism? Because we know a lot of people who have been chronically dieting or and they regain the weight. Does that sort of throw off your resting metabolic rate over
time? Do you think? Yeah. Well, I see a lot of people just chronically under consuming like their their goal is to lose body fat and they just corn. Restrict and they don't ever give themselves time in a caloric maintenance or caloric Surplus. So, I mean our our metabolism is pretty smart. Like it's very adaptable. So if you're constantly cutting calories, your body's metabolic rate. He's going to down regulate and depress to follow suit, having that period of returning to a
healthy maintenance intake. Or ideally? A slight Surplus, is going to have a corresponding positive effect on ramping that metabolic rate back up, which is going to Prime you for building, more lean muscle tissue, the more muscle tissue. You have the higher, your metabolic rate is going to be to begin with. So, Not competing every single year not spending more time in the deficit than in a surplus is very, very important. And that's something that doesn't get talked about near
enough. Because everybody wants to highlight their physique, when it's at their leanest, everybody wants to Showcase their abs on Instagram. Nobody likes talking about the importance of adding a little bit of body fat and focusing on being in a surplus focusing on building more lean tissue and really amplifying and maximizing that time in a surplus. So that's been a big focus of mine trying to bring that spring, a light to that concept.
But yeah, from a metabolic standpoint, you're going to Benefit tremendously. If you give yourself time and a surplus and then when you do transition into a deficit, some point in the future, you're going to have a much better starting position more calories to work with more more lean mass to keep that metabolic rate revving at higher rates. So lots of benefits that come with having that period in a higher caloric intake. I love that. Let's talk about the, the Surplus period.
It seems that your mindset needs to be pretty on point with that because you have to look in the mirror and realize that yes, there are benefits linked with this little bit of cushioning. Around, you know, the waist or the midsection or something, because you're in a surplus in your building that muscle, so that when you die it down, you have more of a physique that's
more chiseled. That's got to mess with your mind because I know we have pictures of bodybuilders, Fitness, competitors, and so forth have pictures of when they're at their leanest. And they don't look like that when they're building. So, how do you coach people through that? Because again, you know, we, if your identity is really wrapped in to your physique and for a lot of people it is and so forth in Of worth when you see a slightly or chubby version of yourself in a mirror.
You like. Oh man, maybe I'm not good enough. I'm when I doing wrong, like I got a cut again so you can see how that could probably sort of conflict with the long-term building process of maintaining muscle mass. Do you coach people through? Is that mindset? A big aspect of this?
Yeah, - it's huge man. And I think I think fully embracing, this is what helped me really get past my disordered eating 10 states to begin with because when you think of Leaning out for show and looking incredibly lean and Having you know, all the ABS in the world and really looking your quote-unquote best, you assume that is equates to, you know, the premier version of you, but once you're able to look on the opposite and the Spectrum and recognize that your ability to
be the best version of yourself in a lean state is only going to be Amplified. If you give yourself enough time in a surplus, it'll be able to kind of bridge that Gap. So to kind of look at it from a timeline standpoint when I'm doing a prep. I normally prep for four to six months depending on, when the show is where, my starting position is accepted. Etc. So 4 to 6 months in a prep will just call it six months, make it
easy. Then. I'll spend three months, reverse dieting, back to a healthy maintenance and take. So that's nine months out of the year right there. So, if I go right back into another Surplus, or right back into another competition, prep, or a cutting protocol. I'm not spending near enough time at a surplus to build lean mass. And especially as a natural athlete. It takes a long time to build lean muscle tissue. Like you're not putting on 20 pounds of solid muscle in a
year. It's just not happening. So if I'm spending, you know, three months in a surplus and then I'm going right back into a deficit. I'm not To look any better. The next time I step onstage and that is the last thing you want to do. Your goal is a competitor. Your goal is a person, should be to get better and better and better with each year that passes. So if you're not having the right Yen and young relationship, so to speak between the building phase in the cutting phase.
You're just short circuiting your own progress. That's beautiful. I think it's really important for people to understand, you know, that that ebb and flow there that you embody. And you're really strict with this, you told me, you haven't had a high carb meal for like
the past seven years. So, I'm Like, I don't have bread or pasta or things like that, but we'll go out and have ice cream periodically and like twice a month or something, but you are really strict with this and you like, eating this way. So when was the last time Robert? You have like a big, big piece of bread or pizza, or pasta something like that? When was that?
Yeah, man. I don't even know, like a lot of people have their, you know, ketover SRI, so to speak where they have like a set day and time that like, this is when I started the ketogenic diet, I don't have a day. I know it was in 2015 after my third competition and I have a deviated since then. So it's been about seven years. For me, being on a strict, ketogenic diet. I have not had a single carbohydrate meal and that
entire seven-year span. I mean, my total carbs have been maybe size like 50 grams on a random day. But usually I keep him around 10, 20, 30 grams total carbs and I just feel better. That way. I don't have any issues building muscle. I don't have any issues recovering. My hormones are all fine. I personally want to be, you know, a lot of people do keto for different reasons. Some people do it to mitigate against type 2 diabetes. Some people do it because they have Addiction tour.
Highly processed carbohydrates and sugars. Lots of people do it for, lots of different reasons for me. I could probably go back to eating carbs and not have that negative relationship that I once because it's been so long. I could probably do that. However, I've kind of found my identity in being a light to the people that can't do that, but then letting them know that hey look, you can still compete in operated in the leet level without carbohydrates.
Like you're not missing out. I think a lot of people go ketogenic and then they feel like their sacrifice. They feel like they're not. Not becoming the best version of themselves. So I want to be, you know, a person that can point to and say, hey, look Roberts doing, it's obviously working for him. I don't have to have carbohydrates to function, delete levels. So that's been my whole motivation for staying, strict
keto through it all. I love it, Robert and I spent extended periods of times with you, you know, out camping at your Ranch and doing different things and I can attest the fact that all the food he brought there was, there's no carbs and, and during that time and the times I've spent with you, eating meals and so forth. I never felt deprived or like, oh my gosh, I wish I had the bread or the pasta or things
like that. So it's definitely achievable, you know, part of the impetus to consume carbohydrates often. Wonder if you have thought about this as well. That part of it is just a psychological addiction where people say, well, I have to have my carbs because of building muscle and I want to get to that. Like, well, if you, if you have more carbs around exercise, you can then sort of there's better insulin signaling potentially in the post exercise window. There's more glycogen in the
muscle and all this. And so, therefore, you can put on more muscle So and I wonder if that's just an excuse for people to consume a food that they might have like a subclinical addiction to or a proclivity towards. So anyway, what are the downsides? Like people will say? Oh, you can't put as much muscle on what on a ketogenic diet and so forth.
Like, I've trained with you, you're a lot stronger than many, many people that I know and you're able to preserve that mass, most importantly, as you go into a cut. So what do you say to someone who says don't do keto, it's going to crush your testosterone and you can't build muscle. It's interesting, man. I mean, there's we live in a world where there Many studies, there's one study that points to something saying that this is what's going to happen.
And there's another study that totally conflicts with that study. So I've always just try to focus more. So on how I feel, how I perform what I'm noticing in my own end of one life, but I do not think that I'm missing out by not including carbohydrates, as a bodybuilder as a natural body builder, you know, there may be a pretty strong argument for, hey, look, if you consume a bunch of carbohydrates, you're going to have more insulin insulin than extreme growth agent.
It's going to cause muscle to Grossman cause fat grow because everything to grow. So there, Could be an argument that you're not capitalizing on all the growth potential without higher basal insulin levels. However, I feel like it would be a pretty pretty insignificant amounts over the course of, you know, building phase in a prep for bodybuilder.
And I feel like when you, you know, contrast that over the cutting phase, I feel like there's a pretty strong argument to suggest that following a ketogenic diet for muscle preservation standpoint, with higher dietary fat, which is going to help. Keep your testosterone levels, stable, in the context of a deficit, which is also very
muscle preserving. Plus ketones are very anti catabolic when you, when you factor that into the equation as well on the opposite Spectrum in the cutting phase. I don't feel like any competitors that I step on stage and compete against are coming in with more muscle than me. They may be able to gain a little bit more than offseason, but I'm able to preserve more my cutting phase.
So at the end of the day, I feel like it's a wash in that regard and I continue to put muscle on every year that passes. I continue to look better. Every time I step onstage. It's sustainable for me. I feel great doing it. I don't have this zombie mode that often accompanies. He's traditional, you know, protocols, which grow Garden nutrition. So I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. I love that.
Now you really embody, what what has been sort of emanating from the research and that is the anti catabolic effects of ketones. Namely beta-hydroxybutyrate and Italy. Logically just quick. Sidestep. It makes a lot of sense, you know, a food is unavailable. You need muscle to get more
food. And so if you just trip down all your muscle to fuel the brain for fuel and so forth, and you would have no ability to reseed and There's been many people, volek and Finney, and all these folks that have looked at this fact that when you go on a ketogenic diet, or with as fasting, induce ketosis or nutritional ketosis from a low-carb standpoint, the ketones have an ability to prevent
catabolism of muscle. And that is really, I think, what kind of like your secret sauce, what makes you and your approach, and helping clients, maintain that muscle mass as they cut. And I think that is so important. A lot of people don't realize that Contribution of muscle tissue to metabolic health, and phallus, and all that. And so let's sort of transition to that if we could talk about the building and so forth, but the the cut, how is that different?
Because what you do is, you're able to maintain a higher calorie intake so that you can train harder. I think that is so important is the intensity of training. So let's talk about, you know, you're cutting and how you look at your your is it, the on-ramp you talk about or the runway caloric Runway, then that's an awesome point. You talked about, in the Because dive into that.
So I don't know that I am able to consume more calories in a cutting phase than I would, if I was not following a ketogenic diet, you know, like when I've competed in the past without a cage, think that my calories still get about as low as they do with a ketogenic approach. However, in the past, like what? Traditional dining methods, most people keep protein incredibly
high. They keep dietary fat, incredibly low and then they'll titrate carbohydrates up or down based off of whether trying to replenish muscle glycogen, etc. Etc, with my Approach via a ketogenic diet. My carbohydrates are in definitely low throughout the entire prep. I don't even carb up, you know, during peak week, but my dietary fat stays relatively High throughout the entirety of the prep and my protein, stays at an Optimum sex that I'm not losing muscle as a result of lack of
protein. Consumption. What's interesting with my knife. I believe is that by having the higher dietary fat relative to other protocols. My beta-hydroxybutyrate is obviously gonna be higher which is anti catabolic, but my testosterone levels are also going to stay much more higher at Baseline. Well, because I've competed with with competitors that have literally Stripped Away their fish, oil pills to go as far to that extent to remove all that Arafat and their testosterone levels.
Totally tanked by the end of that prep and testosterone is obviously very muscle preserving. It's also going to help you train harder and in the context of a caloric deficit the harder, you can train and maintain those Progressive overload principles. That's going to send a signal to your by the hey look, this muscle is still in high demand. Let's not strip. It away to make up this forward as a result of lower caloric intake.
So If you continue to train hard and heavy in the context of a deficit, your ability to preserve muscle mass. It's going to be much more Amplified, and I've been able to do that via the higher dietary fat intake, because as a ketogenic diet at our athlete, that's why I'm getting my energy to begin with mmm. I love that. And so, one of the things that contrast you compared to other coaches is how you start to titrate the calories down.
A lot of people will make these big jumps and calorie cutting and also add in cardio, but you have a great way of talking about how why you add in. Yelp for sprinkle it in later if needed. So you sort of unpack and you talk about it, much more greater detail in the book, how this, how to do this, you know, logistically, but just big picture overview. I think it's a great thing for
people to learn about. Yeah. So like, big picture overview, my book, the whole, my protocol, in general is basically, I'm starting people with a higher fat ratio at around their maintenance intake. So I can really establish what their true maintenance and take is, I'll start dropping their dietary fat while simultaneously. Increasing their dietary protein to figure out what their own unique protein threshold is because it's going to look different.
And for everybody male female, it's just going to be a very individualized, you know, threshold. And then once I reach that threshold, I'll start dropping both protein and dietary fats usually protein at a slightly higher rate. So that as the calories continue to decrease towards the latter half of the prep. Their fat ratio is increasing, which is going to result in the higher blood circulating. Ketone count and better hormonal Health by and large. And then from a cardio
standpoint. I typically recommend having, you know, cardio basically be an inverse relationship to Cal. So when you start to the calories, Hi cardio is very low and then most of your body's changes are coming from nutritional manipulations as you start to Plateau from those nutritional manipulations. Then you can start to titrate the cardio up to keep the momentum going. A lot of people start off doing seven days a week and cardio an hour a day. There's not really room to
increase upon that further. Whereas, if you basically treated as a minimum viable dose and only increase in incremental amounts when needed, you can keep using that as a lever, to pull, basically Robert, this is so apropos to what's going on right now, I guess. I know Jim's are reopening and so forth, but there was a few people that I would see at the gym that I used to go to. I'm no longer allowed to go there because of vaccinations stuff.
But anyhow went there for like, almost ten years and there was a few folks who would go at like, 5:00 in the morning, do like three or four classes then continue to train and so they're they're training volume and the cardio was like, 90 plus minutes a day. And I was just wondering, okay. This is gonna be interesting without access to a gym. They're going to have to make massive shifts. They're gonna have to maintain that cardio or make massive dietary shift. Sits like this.
Like, you talked about this inverse relationship or else you're going to gain weight and the people, then three months later. I saw these folks over the summer. They had put on like 15 20 plus
pounds and I felt really bad. And that was a, you know, subtly sort of, I inferred and you confirm, you know, my thinking here is that if your body is dependent upon all that cardio and you take it away, you go on vacation with the family, you're gonna have to massively shift your diet around or else. Else you're going to put on some weight. So not that I'm against cardio. If it keeps you happy healthy.
It's good for your brain. You got to go out and run and I like to hike in the summer and so forth, but I'm very mindful about my calorie calorie intake when I'm doing excessive cardio to not get into this vicious cycle of increasing my maintenance because I know that, you know, I'm going to put on weight. If I cut back, if I'm eating the same and I cut back on that cardio. So you work with a lot of folks who have been doing this.
They've been eating six 700 calories a day doing tons of Mario. So let's transition to the reverse dieting and helping people to unwind from this vicious cycle of sort of how our metabolism becomes altered. When we are compressing our calorie intake and so forth man, reverse dieting is a tough one because like people would typically come to me and they say I want to build muscle and
lose body. Fat is what everybody wants to do. You kind of have to prioritize one of the other you don't really you're not going to optimize for one if you're trying to do both the same time. So that's first and foremost, but then if they've come to me in there, they've been chronically under eating far too long. Eating sub 1,000 calories, doing a ton of cardio ton of resistance training. We've got to basically say, hey, look, we're going to increase
your your calories. We're going to decrease your cardio. We're going to reset your basal metabolic rate, your caloric intake, Baseline all that at a higher level, but you're probably going to gain some body fat in the process because it just kind of comes with the territory of increasing calories. To that extent. That's a hard sell for me as a coach to try and encourage somebody that's trying to lose body fat. Hey, look, you're not gonna lose
body fat for months. We need to gradually increase that intake and you need to Embracing a little bit of extra fat gain, if that's what happens. But you know, if I break it down for me, explain to them. What's going on, explain to them. Hey, look what they've done for the past several years, obviously isn't working for them anymore. Let's try and switch gears and do something that's more sustainable and kind of get their buying there but oftentimes ma'am. It's interesting.
I'll have people that will start increasing their calories and they oftentimes gained some weight, but it's not as much as they fear initially, but the feel so much better there. There sleeps better. Their energies better, their recoveries better there. Their libidos better everything's better. And I think this is the dance, you know, I suppose a for from the conversations, just so
incredibly important. Robert, I love with us is going one of the, and I'm guilty of promoting fasting, right? We hear so much about fasting and calorie restriction and I'm a huge fan of like inducing a toffee but also exercise up regulates these processes when I was really into fasting. I feel like I looked at my worst, right? I was skinny was Eek and in my head, I'm thinking while I'm gonna live longer and all this and I still can press my feeding
window. You know, I do it early time-shifted fitting but I'm I've increased my calorie intake probably by 800 900, maybe a thousand calories a day. So that has translated into everything that you just talked about better strength, more, intense workout. And to me, I think that's a better aspect of longevity and I know, Health and Longevity is really important to you. You have a child on the way and so forth. So, how do you grapple with that?
Just personally like body building a sigh side, you know, you're eating 3,000 calories a day, you go to some of the same workshops and seminars that I do, listen to a lot of the same content where calorie restriction is purportedly, supposed to enhance longevity. How do you think about that and rationalize that in your mind, you know, from that longevity perspective versus strength and muscle. Yeah. I think it's honestly kind of using that, you know, Ian and young.
I can't see any young. I'm not getting Yang, but that whole relationship, that, that phase cycling through those phases, very important. So, You compete and step onstage or not. Your body is going to benefit from having periods in a caloric Surplus and periods in a caloric deficit for me. I don't do extended fasting. If I'm in a competition preface to many stressors on the body,
but I will do Synod fasting. If I'm in a caloric Surplus, you know on a quarterly or biannually basis or something, just to put my body in that state for a short period of time in the context of a few days. I don't recommend it. Like I said, in the context of a deficit because there's just too many stressors on the body there. But if you're cycling through these phases.
Has at a healthy rate, you know, say you spend a year or two in a caloric Surplus, with some intermittent or was with some extended fasting sprinkled in there. But then after that time after three years, you transition to a more of a structured regimented deficit and cut period and really focus on being in that deficit and losing as much body
fat as possible. And then returning back that healthy Surplus. If you cycle through those, that to me is the Fountain of Youth, right there because you're getting better with each of the passes, you're capitalizing on all the positive that comes with being in the Surplus. You're capitalizing capitalizing on all the positive. I was being a deficit but you're doing both of those in a very sustainable fashion. That's not just chronically
fixated on one or the other. So when you're in a surplus in your building, I know you train fasted definitely, you know when you're cutting but do you still train fasted when you're building? Yeah, so I'll typically train in the morning. So mine. I'm in a caloric Surplus throughout the course of a 24-hour, period, but I'll typically eats the night prior and that acts as my pre-workout fuel so to speak for the next
day's training session. So I just got in training few moments ago actually and I did an arm workout and I hadn't eaten it all today. So that's basically what I structure. My training regimen ends and then you might eat, you know, so be about an hour after you know, as we finish this will you wait another hour, you know people talk about the importance of the post-workout window. You know, how do you think about, you know, because a lot of people are slamming protein shakes in this.
How do you view the importance of getting amino acids in that after training? If you're taking enough protein enough calories enough nutrients over the course of a 24-hour period in your Surplus and you should be fine. Like I don't worry about trying to slam down a protein shake within a 20-minute window to maximize that anabolic State, you know, I feel like as long as you're getting enough over the course of 24 hour period and your body is absorbing it. Good. You're digesting good.
Then you should be totally fine. So I probably won't eat until some time after this podcast. I'm going to have a bunch of, I don't know ground beef and eggs or something. Probably keto brick and I'll be totally fine. I'm not worried about its muscle wasting their, which is honestly quite liberating back before I started doing the ketogenic diet. If I didn't have a protein shake with and Three minutes of training.
I just assumed that I was wasting away and withering it to nothing which just takes the fun out of it. This is a lot more, you know in tune with what my day-to-day schedule is. Like I'm able to be more productive and it's just more sustainable for me. Well, I mean you hit on a great point and I don't know how to
articulate this in a scientific. Jargon way, but when you're just focusing on calories and macros and eating a lot of carbs, there is a lot more Ebbs and flows in your energy and you get hangry. And if you don't have that meal that post-workout shake or whatever, then you start to get. Irritable and agitated and
craving. So, you know, again, I can't explain this mechanistically with with, you know, strict scientific terms, but since sort of reducing carbs and being more keto / carnivore, I anyone I'm around, who isn't eating that way. They are much more attached to food and like, oh my gosh, I haven't eaten yet. I'm like getting, I gotta go, like, just like this, frenetic energy, like sort of overwhelms them and I used to be like that too. And now I'm not like that.
So, so I'm glad that you sort of resonated that Yeah and articulate that yeah, it's comical man. Like when I'm in a when I'm in a prep and I'm you know interact with other competitors. All oftentimes Duo Med towards the later phase of the prep because I'm taking in few enough calories where it's just more convenient for me to do a nomad approach. I'd rather. I'd rather feel satiated and filled with one big meal at you know, 1800 calories for the day than multiple smaller meals.
That always leave me wanting more so I'll be in the tail end of a prep. Have a massively successful workout session, hit a PR on occasion and then I'll do my one meal. Name and then I'll see my other competitive friends that are following more traditional protocols and they're just like the definition of hangry throughout the day, eating every two or three hours into me. Like I'm not losing any more muscle than they are. I'm probably preserving muscle better than they are.
So it just kind of flies in the face of what we're taught to believe from a bodybuilding standpoint, but it's proven time and time again that it's effective for me, but I've been able to replicate it with other client tells when they seem to preserve muscle just as efficiently. So I'm sold on it for sure. That's awesome. I mean when you're having In the meal frequency, if you're having five, six meals a day, what does that really doing for you?
I mean, like, you mentioned that, this is the habit and so forth, but habituates you to chronically be thinking about food in, you're really obsessed with food. So, you know, good luck being a good parent being engaged with your kid or managing your business, being a good spouse. I mean, there's all these things that you could be allocating that time towards but instead it's just all hate to say it's selfish, but you're just focusing on food for you.
That's not serving your You know your neighborhood, your child, whereas for you, you like. Alright, I'm going to make this one meal count and you're going to put a lot of time and energy into that. But the rest of the day, you're free to work to be a spouse to. So I think that's to me. It's very liberating because everyone says why I'm short on time. I don't have enough time to meal prep. I don't have enough time to
exercise. Well, so if you consider buying Roberts book and learning a little bit more about this, you can open up a little bit more time, and that's what I found. Just eating twice a day. It's like, dude, you have way more the meal prep, and I used to carry tupperware's And in a bag and you've done that, it's insane. So I'm glad that you're sharing this message. Yeah, so going back to the reverse dieting.
I know that's one way to sort of help to maintain lean mass and and help overcome the so-called metabolic adaptations that occur. When you diet, there's also taken weekends off and doing. There's all these different strategies to sort of circumnavigate. The reduction in metabolic rate that can happen when you cut your calories. So do you sometimes advise people to do? She dated, the weekends off.
Is there any of that? Or do you just generally ramp up the calories and have people sort of stay there? How do you, how do you navigate that? So in, I've got my book broke in my protocol broken and basically seven phases. But during the last little bit of a competition prep phase or cut phase. I start incorporating ketogenic caloric refeeds. So they're not refeed. In the sense of like an all-out cheat meal, eat whatever you want.
Not a bunch of carbohydrates or anything, but it's a calculated increase in dietary, fat and protein, and I'll start incorporating. Operating that a few weeks prior to the show day or the apex of the cut, and then I'll optimized for that refeed on Peak Week itself. But then I incorporate those refeeds, those ketogenic refeeds after the show as well. And basically, what I have is all increased dietary protein and dietary fat at a pretty good clip. Post-show.
And then while those weekly macros are increasing, those refeed, macros are decreasing. So you're still keeping those refeeds to kind of help from a psychological standpoint, but also from a A logical standpoint and having that surge in calories, but basically what's happening is, as you transition to that reverse, that and your weekly and take starts to increase, which is the daily macros that refit in Tech starts to decrease until they more or less meet in the middle.
And at that point, you start to get closer and closer to your new revised maintenance and take because your maintenance and take. At the end of the show, is not going to be as high as it was at the beginning of the prep. You can't to slowly increase that back up. But once you do, you can start phasing out those refeeds and just having a higher Baseline intake throughout the day. Hmm. Love it. What about other? You know, sort of non
nutritional things? I know you've been doing a little bit more cold, plunging, things like that, you know, academic literature suggests that it may enhance the Beijing of the white, you know, fat to make it behave more like brown fat and theoretically, that can maybe burn more of 50 calories a day or who knows. What do you think that adding in these sort of ancillary tactics, can help people lose more body fat? Or do you think it's just overall sort of a mental grit enhancement?
How do you approach those sort of, you know, sort of biohack E-Type strategies? There's a lot of mental grit that comes with it. Definitely don't want to, you know, discredit that. But honestly, one thing that's really peaked. My interest is allowing myself to be in a pretty relaxed parasympathetic State when I consume my meals in the past, you know, I would eat stress doubts, and I own several businesses. So being stressed out, kind of just comes to territory.
I'm about to have a baby, so lack of sleep and being stressed. That's probably just going to become Amplified. But when you think about it, if you're in a caloric deficit you To preserve as much muscle mass as possible. But you're eating your one or two meals in an incredibly stressed State. Your body's ability to fully assimilate that nutrition and make the most of it is likely going to be compromised.
Whereas if you can truly relax, truly kind of engage that parasympathetic State and eat in that relaxed State. You're probably going to make the most of those calories. The most that nutrition, and you'll be able to keep that. You're gonna be able to keep that metabolic rate functioning at a higher level throughout the entirety of the prep. So, I think that's going to be probably the area where I focus most going forward. I love this.
Actually, there's some studies that have shown in obese individuals using vagal nerve activation techniques. Like with an electronic. I can remember the details of the study. But I do remember reading about how they inserted some sort of electrode to stimulate that vagal nerve, which would then activate all of the gut hormones and the the gastrointestinal parasol tests and so forth and it helped people lose weight. They were overweight.
And so I think, you know what, you're speaking to is very important and it's sort of a hard concept. To sell people on because they have to worry about their macros and meal timing. And then it's like, oh you gotta get into a good mental state. When you're eating that like, oh my gosh. This is becoming too challenging, right? But we're not doing what and I hate to save our ancestors did, but like we would eat with other people and now we're not doing that we're eating by ourselves.
And so sometimes I even catch myself. I'm scrolling on social media. I'm like, Mike, what are you doing? Like, you know that it's that's not mindful eating. So I think this is so important and I know some of the meals that I've had with you phones are away. Way, we're sitting there were chatting. We're having a good time. We're talking to your taking time in between those bites, you're chewing masticating the food, but stimulates digestion.
So, I'm glad you mentioned that because that's such an important point to assimilating this protein. Like we talked about. Oh, you got to get enough protein, but what, if you're not digesting that protein because you're eating it when you're driving 70 miles an hour on the freeway, right? Yeah, totally man. I feel like you know, for me when I'm in a prep, I mean you fixate on food more. Anyways, when you're in a deficit like you just think about food your more hungry.
It's more top of Mind, especially if you're eating several times a day. Because you have to be conscious of when that next meals coming. But in the past I would I would not really out throw caution to the wind when it comes to my mental state around consumption. And then I would just become like this Feeding Frenzy Maniac, which you leave the table and you're not even satiated after that.
Whereas now I'll make myself a walk around the block, focus on the birds chirping, focus on whatever in seemingly insignificant details were in my surrounding, but then, when I actually sat down to consume the food, I just felt much better for enough. I left the table more. A shaded even though the calories were acquainted for. So I think that psychological aspect of it that parasympathetic state is so incredibly important. That's huge and you mentioned like a post mail walk.
It's so amazing what that does for your blood sugar, you know, I mean just keeping it flat and that probably helps with cravings and things like that. I've noticed, we have a new puppy. Her name is Roxy. We got her in December and she's half German Shephard and she's just full of energy. Like, if you could bottle that up in a pill, you'd be living on a beach somewhere. Ben. So I always take her any time. I eat. I go for a walk and it's just
amazing. Like, I sleep so much better and Robert I've started for me getting abs is always been difficult even in high school. And so I'm trying to get more ABS again just that's it. Like I'm not doing anything differently outside of that. So I think it's interesting. A lot of people I see in my neighborhood. They order takeout. They stay home. They don't walk out. Were the only family out of like 12 different homes. Here that is always walking.
And I think it's Really under-recognized but the importance is dropping that glucose and a percent a couple couple of final questions here. I want to get into training frequency, just real quick. A lot of people have different ideas about hitting the muscle several times a week, you know. Again your you maintain a lot of strength and I heard you say, you get a sometimes you'll have a PR during a cut which is super
impressive. So, training frequency for specially like a lagging body part, whether it's dealt arms, abs, whatever. What do you think about, how many times a week? Should you hit a? So, yeah, so as a natural body butter, most the research seems to point to you needing to have that Target muscle, hit, you know, on a twice a week. Ideally. So when I've done, I mean, you basically have three primary levers to pull. You've got the frequency.
You've got the intensity. You've got the volume, and some of those kind of go hand in hand. What I've done. What I've implemented is basically a, an eight-day training split, which I've been using for the past several years. Now, with great success and over that, Eighth Day cycle. I'm training, six days and have to off dates.
In that six day training span basically each muscles getting targeted twice one of which is more of a hypertrophy focus with a little bit lower weights High repetitions. And one of those days is more of a heavy, you know, strength focus with heavier weights, but fewer reps and by doing that I'm able to Target each muscle differently, but more frequently with that two times in that Eighth Day cycle, kind of split
and it keeps things interesting. It allows me to recover fully between targeting that same muscle again, and I just honestly really enjoyed it. So that's what I Certainly, there's a lot of different ways to do it. Some people do like a push-pull leg split, some people do upper body lower body. I don't generally recommend full body days. Because if you're doing a full body, let's training for 3 hours.
At a time. You're not really going to have enough Focus towards any single muscle group to really maximize that intensity. So I like doing more of the Eighth Day. Rotational split with each muscle group getting a heavy and hypertrophy focus and it's worked very well for me. That's awesome. Now the fitness Community has really evolved in the past couple years. I mean with chains. These bands, sort of progressive different techniques with, with
regards to that. Have you Incorporated any of those sort of modalities in your training? I'm pretty old school man. Like I like the blood and guts old school style of training. Like I lifted high like lifting hard like the heavy, like, cranking the music up and just get on with it. I've done chains.
I changed pretty cool. Because, as you like squats for instance, if you put a chain on each side of the squat bar, the higher up you go, which is typically easier on the body, once you get past the Sticking point, there's more chains lifted from the ground to the weight is increasing throughout the web, the repetition, which is pretty cool. So, I'll do that on occasion. The resistance bands are really
nice. I like traveling with those because I'm able to stimulate the muscle without, you know, bringing a bunch of Weights along with me. So just in spans, a really nice from a convenient standpoint. While on the road, The bfr Blood Flow Restriction Training is also pretty compelling, but honestly, I just keep it pretty simple. Like I like the free weights. I like doing the basic movements, a lot of the primary compound movement, squats, bench deadlift.
Overhead, press things of that nature, and that just continues to work for me. That's awesome. It's worked for so many people over the years. I asked that because I spoke with Stan. Efforting. We had them on the podcast few years ago and he'll do these Cycles where he'll do like a power lifting type block and then a body building approach and go back and forth. And I think that's kind of
interesting. Some other people, you know, Marcus Philly does like a functional body building where he'll even a little bit of CrossFit style stuff into bodybuilding. So anyway, it's interesting to follow different people and see what works for them. And So on, and the cool part is like, there's so many options now, like, if you don't like bodybuilding, but you can do other things. You can do kettlebells or this, or you can cycle through, which is really right, Robert.
Let's finish up on the nutrition. On the nutrition side. You mentioned eggs, and ground beef. Favorite around here. You also mention the key to break. Let's talk about how best to use the key to break for someone who's bulking and cutting with protein and fat. I know you have a lot of details in the book, but just sort of high-level overview. Yes. I mean when it comes to having a specific composition of Oh, go
like a competition prep. We're trying to maximize fat loss and maximize muscle retention having things that are easily tracked and manipulated seems to work best and it doesn't get any easier than ground beef and eggs. I'll typically start at a higher fat ratio, increased protein, drop fat, and then start dropping both protein and fat and to make sing make things super simple.
I'll start with like a 75/25 ground beef and as my protein increases transition to an 80/20, 85/15, maybe even 90/10 and then start going back as a fat ratio increases over the The prep. So that makes it super simple to manipulate the macros. I typically recommend adjusting macros and five or ten gram, increments. Most eggs are about, you know, 56 grams of protein, 56 grams of fans. So it makes that very easy
manipulation there. And then, the keto brick is just a really good source of quality dietary fat in the form of stearic acid, which is a lot of information about stearic acid. All the benefits that a company that plus, it tastes pretty good. I'm all for doing something super simple, like carnivore approach, but I'm I get or if I'm just eating meat indefinitely.
So having the keto brick makes it more sustainable more enjoyable for me. So I'll typically have that as my primary fat source, and that's pretty much the foundation of my, my nutritional, you know, pics and choices. And I'll just add in some oil or add in some vegetables on occasion to hit the numbers and provide some variety. I love that. What about chicken? A lot of people are doing chicken and tilapia in the fitness space and recommending that I think I know your answer to that.
But what are you eating? A lot of chicken? Crystal loves chicken like she actually, she's kind of strange. She doesn't like red meat, but she loves chicken. So, when she cooks chicken, I'll eat chicken. I don't really do that so much when I'm in a prep because I don't really have protein that's that high relative to my fan but I haven't, I can't tell you. Last time I had tilapia. It's been a long time and back in the day. All I was eating was chicken tilapia.
So I probably kind of burnt myself out on it for a while. I know, I mean, it's so hard to get even good tilapia. Anyway, a lot of its farm-raised, which is, which is no good, but I got to say, we've really been enjoying the key tobruk. Ashley traveling hiking being outdoors. Like, it's so easy to get really good calories and so forth and I find myself, you know, when I have have it around, if I'm a little hungry, like, in the evening time. It's not quite dinner time.
I'll just like, cut a little square off. It's way better than having chips or anything like that. It's very satiating. So, hats off to you on that. A lot of great flavors. I'll put links below, folks want to check it out. So you do seasonal launches, right? I know there's a maple pecan that recently launched and I know you do these big launches. What's the next flavor that you guys are working on?
So I'm gonna divulge too much information, but we got a nootropic brick that will work going on. So we're going to have like a brain brick so to speak. But yeah, we're super excited about that one. Heck, yeah, that is a really good idea, you know these these mushroom coffees and sort of nootropic coffees. Like what a great way to weave in Alpha GMC or mushrooms or whatever. I love a man. That's really great approach. So Robert, I like to ask people,
you know, there's one exercise. I think I know the answer. Sure here, but if there's one exercise. It's the only one who can do right. You're on a desert island. Right? What would that one exercise be? And why man, if I had to pick one, I'd probably be dead lifts because you're going to work a little bit of everything with deadlifts and you can also have so much Variety in the technique behind your deadlift. You can do Sumo deadlifts to kind of engage more of the
glutes and hamstring. You can do conventional deadlifts to work. On more the back. You can do straight leg dead lifts. You can do all kinds of, you know, deadlift variations. And if I had to pick one, it would 100% be dead lifts with squats in a close. and, I did some Sumo deadlifts this morning before this call, which was very committed. Yeah, I mean it works, your arms, your back, your traps legs glutes. All that. I did a little wide stance with with some bands and so forth.
So that was cool. Have you done it with it? Legitimate deadlift and bar as opposed to just a standard Olympic Bar. What? So I have X bar in a regular, you know, 45 pound bar. So I'm normally do Hex far deadlift just because I injured my back doing Sumo, deadlifts in college and for me just X and so forth. My spine is a little bit longer than is my legs. And so when I do just a straight bar dead, unless I go Sumo and use good form. I'm usually my back hurts my back.
So I'm like it, I'm going to be 40 this year. I'm like dude. There's I don't care about you setting a PR on a straight bar. Like I'm mentally, okay, doing X bar, deadlifts or also have the BC. Yeah. Brett contrast. The tea Bell. Have you seen that little thing? I have not seen that know, so it's just it's just basically, it's a rod that is fits full-size plane. It's on it and you can, but load it up with 35. So I put like 165 170 on that and you can easily do t-bar.
Deadlifts. Are t-bar sumo deadlifts if you will, so I guess. Yeah, or it kind of like a goblet style you can you do a lot of things with the BCT Bell. I've shared folks a little bit more about that. But you know, if you have a small home gym, for example a minimal equipment. You don't have room for a hex bar or a straight bar. The BCT bill is nice because you can just load it up with 35. So we're 25 and you.
I can do a lot. You can do kettlebells kettlebells like swings and you can adjust the handle, so you can go pretty deep and make it lower. So, I like that. Yeah, I'm, I'm like a gym equipment. Junkie. So I like trying new things, heck. Yeah. Well, that was gonna be my next question. So what's next for you, for the home gym, honestly, so, I've got to prep that I'm probably going
to start later this year. So I actually just got membership Aunt, like this, you know, how to lift her body, but her style Jim. And I pretty much just go there for leg day because we don't have all the leg equipment that I would. We've got a pretty good setup here at the compound, but we're going to be adding more equipment. My next thing on the the compounds. Jim list is probably going to be either a vertical hack, squat or a leg.
Press just I can bring in some more that lower body movements into what we've got here, but that probably be my next purchase for sure. Hmm. Yeah, and those are spendy they are you know, we've got this space forward. So we're going to Emma. We're going to have a pretty awesome gym when it's all said and done but we're just chipping away at it day at a time.
Yeah. There was a gym in Toronto and I'll I have to get you the name on, I'll put it in the show notes that had this hack squat that was unlike any other hack squat that I've ever used before. And I can't remember the piece of equipment. I want to say was made somewhere in Australia, but this hack squat. I got to send it to you. I'll put in the show notes. Maybe I'll throw in a picture. Starburns can see it was the best one I've ever used.
And yeah, you can just really your quads after we're just crushed like a chain and the river. What wasn't it was this? I want to say was a some company in Australia. Yeah, but it was a gym in Toronto and there were hyping it up and they had this is a boutique E-Type Jim two hundred dollar one on one training session type setup and they had some really great equipment. I want to say is maybe Elko or another one of those brand you
really high-end. But anyway, for a hack squat, that would be, that'd be pretty cool. My wife actually during koban bought a leg press and got it for a great. It was like $700 and now for I thought, oh my gosh, this thing is going to be like Rickety a little leg. Press, you know, I know for a lot of people 7:00 lot, but leg presses could be like 2,500 like you could send a 5k. So she told me the price, she knows the guy that was a distributor of this equipment
and said it was a great deal. Someone had it is a ding or a dent type of situation and I thought, come on Diana. This is not going to be sufficient, but it has great angles and it's Vic. You can load it up and I put bands on it too. And anyway, so there's great deals to be had Facebook Marketplace. I'm always looking there. We bought a Hyper on Facebook Marketplace and some other sort of like posterior chain type stuff. So, it's still a good time.
You know, a lot of people that that spend a lot of money during covid for home gym equipment. Sometimes I'm like, they're not using it now. Yeah, they're selling all sorts Open Marketplace, this stuff. Yeah. So definitely check it out. And also check out Roberts book, ketogenic bodybuilding and also Robert you have like I said several different businesses, we've talked about the keto brick, folks want to connect with you and maybe your coaching
program and so forth. What's the best way to do that? We threw keto Savage like keto Savage not calm and then ketose Amazon social. That's pretty much my main ketogenic content Hub and then keto break.com for the bricks. But yeah, if you go to Quito Savage.com that kind of links out to everything. That's awesome. By the way. I just you reminded me. I'm wearing your keto, Savage shorts right now. And I love these things. Well, we're about to really ramp
up the apparel. We actually, I'm going to Austin this weekend. I'm picking up all kinds of screen-printing equipment. And then after we bring that in, and we're going to just be printing all of our own stuff, so it's about to be ramped up for sure again in house. Yeah. All in House, that's amazing. That's got to be a large undertaking, right? Because the volumes in the equipment.
I mean, that's yeah, that's what's it's, I mean, I don't know man, like I just love having all these creative Outlets like all perfect. One thing and then get bored with it. Moved the next thing, so, I'm about to be learning how to screen print here soon. So get ready. That is really cool. Robert is always, it's great to talk with you. Thanks for sharing such great information coming from the
heart. I learn a lot from you every time and I do want to thank you for introducing me to archery back in 2018. Now we have targets all over the backyard and I bought a bow last year. So if it weren't for that, what sounds kind of sketchy, you know, just telling people, but we're shooting in a parking lot that the on the property there was nothing behind it. Right? So don't think we're shooting near people, but I remember how terrible of a shot.
I was and I was so embarrassed afterwards. I'm like rose. Yeah. I think I broke when it. Yeah, my dude, I have to, I got to be able to figure this thing out and I feel like I've gotten a lot closer to figuring it out since that time, so, Before that. Thanks for your friendship and sharing such great info. Yeah, man. Well, you're always welcome here. We're going to do another Farm trip. We'll go hunting again. Always a pleasure when we do that. We'll do it buddy.
Sounds good. Take care of an awesome day.