Hello, ladies and gents Robert Sykes keto, Savage.com. And today I've got special guest dr. Greg Kelly on the line, he is The Man Behind a lot of the formulation and research that takes place at narrow hacker Collective. They're the ones that produce the qualia supplement. It's a nootropic supplement. But they've also got several other product lines, like asleep line of focused, line, of vision line.
And it's one of the compass has been out in the neuro hacking nootropic space before that was even popular before. Packing and nootropics for really a thing. So I kind of wanted to pull the curtain back on the history of
that. But we also dive deep into anti-aging and how some of the compounds around anti-aging from a sin oolitic standpoint, which is basically taking these cells that need to die off and making them die off more efficiently paves the way for room to have healthier sales take their place. So we dove into quite a bit. We do of into the nootropic range of the company. Nero hacker Collective. And their quickly line of
products. We dive into longevity and sin a lytx and what that is in certain compounds around that. So we really kind of pull the curtain back on biohacking and Longevity. So thoroughly enjoy the conversation. I've got no doubt that you will take something from it. So that further, Ado, and sit back, relax and do the podcast with dr. Greg Kelly Dr. Greg Kelly. How are you sir? Very good. Thanks for having me on today. I am excited to be chatting with
you. So I feel like you were in the quote-unquote biohacking, longevity space before that space became a space. Like it was, it's really popular right now. Like people throw around the term, biohacking really Loosely, but I feel like you've been doing research in this realm for quite some time, right? Yeah, I know for someone nature pratik, doctor by profession and even when I was in nature, Pathak School in the early to mid-90s, I guess what? Drove me, and I think much more
than many of my classmates. At the time was an idea. What does Health look like? And how can we figure out the shortcuts to get there rather than focus on what poor health is? And you're trying to mediate that. So I feel like most of my professional career has been geared towards biohacking you know, healthy In long before those were topical things, what made you want to go? The route of the naturopath. Anyways, I what was the Catalyst for you?
Taking that route in life. So it was completely selfish. I was an officer in the Navy, in the 84 to 89. I was active duty and had about it at the time, like, a year to give my notice before I would be able to get out and my plan at the time was just to be somewhat of a gypsy and travel around.
And when the backpack, see the world kind of enjoy life, in a way, less constrained, than I've been able to up to that point, and it had dawned on me that to really do that, and go to some of the places I want to go to. I should be able to take care of myself to some stomachs. And so I started on my own studying herbal medicine yoga. A lot of things to kind of keep myself healthier and what ended up happening in the process of doing that, I stumbled upon the Nature Pathak professional
thought. Wow how cool they were already teaching. Most of these things I've been trying to stitch together on my own so that was it that was the long story short and then I just really love the profession. The education was fantastic and never never really got to do the Gypsy thing like I initially planned. Yeah just about to ask how the Gypsy things been going, I guess you're probably still pretty well-traveled and just where
your research takes you, right? Yeah, and I did have a during that time period, I had an opportunity to go and live abroad in Thailand and to study there and I've traveled fairly extensively but never done the like prolonged, you know, many, many months. Backpacking thing that I that I Was preparing myself to do when I started to learn some of this, biohacking in one, Japanese information.
Nice nice. What is the, the formal schooling look like for the naturopathic profession like, is there like a Certain curriculum, that is generally followed and expected there. How does that typically broken down? Yeah, so there is a, I think I would like dividing it into licensable, and, on licensed,
naturopathic doctor. So the licensable ones, the ones that in States, like where I live in California and states, where I practiced, like Connecticut to become license in those States. There's a formal education process and the way it was when I went to school was pretty much it. Standard pre-med curriculum to get into nature Pathak school. And then the program, they're the first two years. Were relatively indistinguishable from medical school.
And by that, I mean, we would take things like Anatomy physiology biochemistry Radiology, like all the background things, but what separates naturopathic medicine is wanted Kinder than how we would approach healing people. We would focus on herbs diet, lifestyle acupuncture, We call it nature Pathak manipulation, but it would be very similar to Chiropractic. So our modalities would have been substantially different and then the training Zone. Nature paths, really didn't have Hospital.
Some of that's changed. I know. Now, some hospitals allow nature Pathak residence, but the way our education work is, we call it a preceptorship, but just think of an apprenticeship, you would spend about 2,000 hours in an apprenticeship with varying nature paths that were already in practice to better. Learn the trade is there pretty good? Camaraderie amongst the nature pathic. Doctors and those that are falling more traditional Western medicine, or is there kind of
like a like a animosity there? I don't think there's much animosity anymore, at least it would have dampened. And in part, like, I know when I was first in school, there was, I would say, more than animosity, a lack of understanding. So at the time I was still do Navy Reserves, wow, one weekend a month or, you know, sometimes for two weeks a year as part of that. And one of those two week things, I had an opportunity to spend a week of it in like the medical part.
Part of a aircraft carrier. So a pretty big ship. And I didn't experience any hostility by the MDS that were on the ship. It was more just curiosity. They didn't, you know, they didn't understand what nature Pathak medicine was, and what I found at the time is medicine, as you would know has its own lingo and if I communicated them in that lingo then it was like oh this person you know they know what they're talking about so I've never never personally.
Ernst it that said, I certainly know classmates have had big chips on their shoulder that they didn't feel like they were respected by other medical professions. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I always try to ask people that are coming from functional, traditional therapy, background or naturopathic background. What that relationship has been like because it's good to see that it's less hostile now.
I feel like the more knowledge out there from different perspectives, that's just going to cause everyone's Health to increase so that that's a good thing. Yeah, and I remember, I was when I was first in practice, I worked with Peter, d'adamo is a nature Pathak doctor and most famous for around the blood type diet. And at the time, we would get a fair number of patients recommended to us from medical doctors. And the gist of the story was fairly simple that they didn't
understand what he was doing. But they would see people with the book and those people were doing really bowel with complicated health issues. Commonly. So they would say you know I don't know you know much of what he does but you may want to check this person out. So yeah, I think there's more openness now than there was done but I think most people in the health profession legitimately want to help people and often their limitation is what they
know and their tools. But I think the profession as a whole tends to attract people that that legitimately want to make a difference in their Patients lives. Yeah, I completely agree and I feel like you know with going the the nature Pathak routes having an emphasis on diet and lifestyle, I mean that just that just makes sense. Like if people are coming from a background of you know, disease State and they focus on lifestyle and what they're consuming nutritionally speaking.
As probably going to provide the biggest bang for the proverbial Buck for, they're improving their health. Well, I think for sure, and I think the limitation more going way back in with them, these was just, they weren't they didn't get a lot of Education in those things. And part of that, just scarcity of time, right? You can only learn so much. Even in the extensive time they spend in their training, where nature paths. We spent a lot more time on diet lifestyle exercise.
So, it became a, you know, much more viable tool for us to use. We just had more knowledge and experience with it and I I'm sure you've seen the same sometimes just finding kind of a person's diet Kryptonite and getting them the coaching they need to, you know, remove those things from their diet or shift into other areas. Can just make profound differences. Totally? Are there any modalities that are commonly used in the nature path realm that that you don't really subscribe to like
acupuncture Chiropractic Care? Like, is there anything that you don't personally find much benefit to our? Do you think everything has its place? So I would be of the opinion that everything has its place that but there's certain things that I'm more skilled in and others you know, not particularly skilled in like
Homeopathy as an example. We would train in that, I like my personal experience with Homeopathy is it seems to work really well, sometimes for pets and young children, and not so great as we get older, right? So not a supply, the time someone's pretty worn down by life, you know, homeopathic medicine in my A minute experience, didn't seem to do much for them, where a two-year-old sometimes it would be almost complete shift within, you know, 10 minutes of taking a
homeopathic medicine. So I think a lot has to do with context, take at least to me, right? Like, there's certain tools that are better used for certain circumstances and then at one point, I remember is an actual and be and he was would have considered himself an Integrative Medical and d. And at the time, His idea was, what I would say. Just throw the kitchen sink at someone. Right, and my idea of integrated medicine always been more like a puzzle.
Like what's what's the one high-leverage piece that we couldn't cook can put in place for this particular person? And for some people that maybe, you know, movement or exercise or someone else, it may be manipulation or acupuncture for someone else, it may be more of a mind-body thing. That's something like an LP or hypnosis or got it.
Jury would be a better fit for. So that's to me that idea of almost, you know, I helped detective, we know what for this particular person are going to be the high leverage areas. Do you like a probably have a pretty broad array of clientele base? But you have like a general demographic. That is your most typical Avatar. When it comes to patients coming in. Well, I don't see patients
actively anymore. Currently, I just work as the director of research into our development for a company called neuro hacker Collective. But when I was in practice, Is it was it was very diverse everything from people that were healthy and wanted to get in better shape to people with, you know, almost at me hard to treat disease or condition you can
name. So it ran the gamut honestly and I think one of the, the things I remember, you know, that was interesting is occasionally, I would get a teenager. That was the driving force, they'd be healthy and super concerned about eating better and they dragged the whole family in, you know. So those are always fun.
But when people were Health you wanted to Get healthier for the most, you know, personally satisfying for me, you know, to see someone that was that interested to be proactive know, for sure. I think when you get some of its younger and wanted to be proactive, they're trying to
it's hard though. Like when you're the younger member of the family trying to sway, you know, your parents, your uncle, your aunt, your grandparents to get healthier like they're often times set in their ways and that's a very hard hard cart to get moving so to speak. Yeah, for sure, I think change is always challenging.
So, you know, I think I gave and going back to, when I was in nature Pathak student, the vast majority of my classmates had had some health issue, and a naturopathic doctor had helped them overcome. Right? So they'd that was there, you know, often than their focus is whatever, modality worked for them, where I was somewhat unique in that. I like I said, I was just trying to learn all these things to stay healthy. So you know so I hadn't Been on healthy.
So because of that I think there's like my opinion it for is likely no one way that's always going to work for everyone. There are certain principles that I think tend to like routinely show up, if you can get those foundations in place, then generally good things happen. Yeah. Totally agree. I think there's like the people
that have some type of ailment. It's always seems like a burden at the time but it's often times like Like a, there's a silver lining there because it makes them that much more motivated to find the resolution where so many people that don't have a glaring ailment, they often just keep doing the status quo and they just kind of slowly that leads to their demise overtime.
And a gradual fashion where someone if they've gotten like a like chronic inflammation or a very acute issue that able to kind of be more motivated to tackle that and resolve it. Well, I think that was even like true for me in a sense.
It was a time in the Navy. The I was out of school so I wasn't on it ship and I was in the Navy, we call the boq but think of it like you know like the Navy hotel for officers on the base and one morning I just woke up and my back was super stiff and it was you know fairly painful just to walk from my bed to the bathroom. Never mind, go to class that
day. And so later in the day, I went to the Base clinic and they just said, oh, you know, here take these muscle relaxers and at the time it just struck me as Really, that's the solution. You, there's nothing more here and I've always been an Avid Reader and new the base librarian. So, I went to the base library that day and found a book on you, no more luck.
Holistic back here, right? That talked about yoga and Chiropractic and a lot of movement types of things, and that was actually what triggered my interest in it, right? So it was not a like a lingering how thing, but something that all of a sudden got my attention that, wow. I love that you know that I could raise the bar a lot in my knowledge in this area. Totaling you have been doing a lot of like proactive joint work to improve my knee Mobility.
Following bin Patrick's guidelines but I've also kind of dabbled in yoga and that's been beneficial for me. I've not ever really had much luck with chiropractic care, but to be honest, I've never really probably give it its full, you know, opportunity to have an impact on me. I've tried a few and it just never really been successful, but I'm assuming you've, you've seen yourself Will have tremendous benefit with chiropractic care. I like from Timmy, most things are mixed bag.
So, I've seen both, I've seen the like almost one adjustment of something that freed up an area that had been, you know, impacting, you know, blood flow nerve, sensation to a tissue and that one adjustment that found that has made a big difference. I've also seen, you know, number of times where you'll do an adjustment, have someone walk around the clinic and they come back and your reassess and everything that was out before
you adjusted it back out again. And so that's why I think often, you know, Chiropractic as a profession, their bread and butter is having people come in repeatedly because they're it's it's more managing that then maybe corrective like as an example. I have a rather dad for his work, he does food sales, so he's in a car. I think so, he just his wear and tear is on even on his body,
right? Because he's using his right side, you know, for the gas and the brake and and when that's the case Chiropractic, I think and other muscular musculoskeletal interventions can help make things more manageable, but you know that the cause is never being removed from the picture so to speak. Yeah, I'd be curious to get your take on this. So, with you coming from a biohacking background, but also this is Naturopathic back down and wanting to fix the root issue.
What is your opinion of this gaining momentum of using peptide stem cells and all of these things? Locally for a point of information like, you know, injecting stem cells into a inflamed knee for instances that going to have a net positive or you think that's kind of just putting a Band-Aid over a deeper issue. I think that's a complicated question and even the getting to the idea of the cause I think on its own is mysterious and
complicated. So going back to that time I you know, was a naturopathic student and spent the week, you know, on a ship with their medical staff nature. Pass at the time would have said oh we're all about finding. And treating the cause and what I found interesting at the time asthma was a big, you know, issue for some people on this ship just because of Welding soldering chemicals, you name it and the medical doctors felt like, you know, the asthma medications. They were doing.
We're treating the cause in the sense they were, you know, causing the airway muscles to be more relaxed, right? So their idea of the cause we just different. And I think each health profession would have somewhat different Notions of the cause, and I think sometimes things can be improved or resolved without actually knowing Cause because
Klaus causes are complicated. So, you know so I think it's always useful to try to find the cause but I guess my message would be that whatever you're identifying the cause is in the context of your Paradigm of what's causing things and different. Paradigms can still get great results with identifying vastly different causes makes total sense talking about Nero hacker Collective because that's is the company behind. Is it coyly old? Pronounce it right? Qualia is how we say it.
Yeah, that inquired. Oh sorry. Go ahead. No movies in choir is it's a word out of almost philosophy of mind, but probably would stand for this subjective experience of something. So, you know, like if you and I would eat the same identical meal, your quality of it might be different, right? Like your individual experience a bit so we were founded as a company. Very focused on helping people, improve. Move their experience of their life and performance. And when do they company come to
me? We were founded in 2015. Okay, because I'm seeing the the quality of supplements, you know, early early on, like, when they were first starting out. And at the time, I mean, at least least in my perspective, that was pretty much the only nootropic blind supplement that I had ever seen in the market. So I feel like y'all were definitely on The Cutting Edge of that as an industry.
Yeah, I think, yeah, we wouldn't have been the first new crop of company, but I think we were one of the first that really married, you know, like a sophisticated formula, well, thought out and the ability to get it in front of people's eyes on social media, and other places. One of our, our Founders Danielle Smock and burger. I know, when the original quality of product launch was also on a lot of podcasts. Because of that are our product.
I think compared to most startups got, you know, widely known very quickly, which was great for the company. Yeah so what sets it apart from other nootropic Blends that they like what differentiates it from the competition.
So I think what, when I think of our hacker Collective and the qual, your line, one of the things we do that, maybe not unique, I'm not sure there could be other companies doing it, but none that I know of. So when we put together a product we, you know, we read the research, you try to make, you know, smart decisions on what to put in how much to put in. But, you know, I think many companies do that, but what separates us out is before, then
we would actually We move the product into selling it to customers will do some type of small study on it to make sure that that blend of ingredients actually works and does the things that we were hoping it would do. And, you know, you would think that that would be normative and the supplement world. But it really is. Yeah. So that that I think sets us apart and then the other thing and this is more about how we understand science is we think of ourselves as a complex
systems Science model. So our approach to understanding things is I get paid into that, is this idea that the body is a complex system and it's constantly learning and adapting. And that filter sometimes, when you look at studies that filter, your takeaway would change with that Paradigm as opposed to a more you know, like reductionist mainstream type of science perspective.
So I think that separates us out as well and your merely doing a lot of the formulation and research within the company or what are your primary rule. Yeah, so I'm basically the main person when it comes to new product development. So I you know spend most of my days reading studies, synthesizing information trying to teach other people you know about our products or you know or health in general you know.
So quite a bit of Writing would be a big part of what I do as well like blog content for our website. Nice. And I must say I like I just proved your site before we jumped on this podcast and I love how you have everything laid out such that you can click on the product with a DWI town of the formula and why you chose those ingredients and what they do from a biochemical standpoint which I think is much more involved than I've seen on any
other supplement website. One of the things this was I guess when you think of, you know, like mission for a company, it was really important for us to be transparent about. Then this goes back to the founding and the couple of Founders. And so, one of the things I know that I do whenever we launch a new product is, I'll do a fairly Long blog where I'll talk just a bit about the product, but then for every ingredient, I'll talk about that ingredient.
Why we chose the dose we did. So we try to be super transparent and you know, it's possible. Someone would say oh well I think this ingredient would have been better or this dose. May have been better, which I get right. There is different sometimes understandings and opinions. But I think again, we're somewhat unique and that we try to be super transparent with our customers. Is this is why we did what we did. No, I think it's great.
I think having that full transparency is most certainly the way to go. I think, in the very beginning, it was just the original. A product and then since then you have come out these different lines like one, you know, for Sleep specifically 14, you know, Focus. So when it comes to these different skus, how would one kind of go through this, the roadmap, like, just based off of what their needs, primarily our kind of picking the product
accordingly. Yeah, so we tended to focus mostly on two areas brain and Longevity being the main to. So you, you mentioned the Final product was a nootropic, right? So that was a comprehensive product for the brain, so it was intended to do. Focus memory, you know, basically upgrade the brain across a lot of areas. Focus is a simpler product still a brand product but it's really much more geared towards that like attention alertness
concentration. So, the way I tend to think of those two nootropics is in the course of Day or a week. You'd probably experienced some largely the same in the over a month to two months quality of mine, which is what the original product you mentioned would be that when you'll get a lot more benefits, it's just got a lot more nutrition for the brain and then either products or just geared towards other Solutions.
So you mentioned sleep. So that's a product called quality and and when I design that I actually, you know, categorized it as a nighttime nootropic because unlike a A lot of Sleep Products. So the classic sleep product, you know, often melatonin and and what I would think of a sedative herbs you would take maybe 30 60 minutes before bed with the idea that it's going to cause you to fall asleep kind of
thing. And our product call you tonight, that would be in the Sleep category is designed to take it dinner time like three to four hours before and the reason is think of physiology almost like as a, like a toddler, right? You have I feel waking up in the morning, you know, cortisol goes up all these kind of day hormones and Dana are transmitters flood the system to make it so we can go from 0 to 60 and be you know, alert and
get into our day. The flip side of that is as things start to get dark, we have almost those things are received and the nighttime hormones and neurotransmitters that to have their time in the Sun so to speak. And so we have, you know, fundamentally two different physiologies, like a day and a night time one. And so most Nootropics would be things that you would take, you
know, often to start your day. So, while your night was conceived as a nighttime, nootropic something that you would take to start your night and to support them, the building of melatonin and the what's called hyperarousal. One of the like basically one of the reasons people have trouble winding down and getting good quality, sleep is their nervous system is just to round up by so dampening down hyperarousal.
So, while you night was designed for that and at the The kind of the pleasant side effect of that is people generally sleep a lot better. Totally let's dive into some of the weeds, I want to kind of pull the curtain back on these compounds specifically and like as you're formulating, these what, what compounds get you excited? Like what are you diving into from a research standpoint?
When it comes to these different ingredients, that is really just pushing the needle on the research and having a profound impact on human longevity and just overall productivity. I think that the like, I think going into like that longevity and healthy aging that would be, you know, product we call Quality analytic that we launched June of 2022. So end of June 20 22. So almost 10 months ago and seen a lytx. I think are super interesting
area for healthy aging. So maybe we could spend a few minutes on that. Yeah, certainly, yeah. So just some background on conceptual. Ali, how aging is thought about. So there's this concept called the Hallmarks of Aging. So think of Hallmark's in this case, meaning characteristic. So if you looked at flies worms mice, you know, all the way up to humans. There's certain shared characteristics that age of
organisms have in common. So these are things like our telomeres becoming short DNA becoming damaged a process called the top a gene or not working as well. You had mentioned it. Summation earlier like inflammation is often how it's thought up that chronic low level inflammation, that creeps up year after year, decade after decade, right? So there's these dirt 12 different characteristics and one of them is called cellular senescence. So, cellular senescence.
What that means is that, and think of, like, one of the things, I think that's important to understand is we're constantly, birthing and having cells go through their life cycle and die off. So, completely normal and different tissues. That's going to occur at different rates. So, as an example, the neurons in our brain, they're pretty much good for a lifetime. Like once they're done, we don't burp, new ones and the ones that are there. Ideally, you know, don't die but
things like that tissue. The average cell in fat tissue lives a life of about eight years muscle tissue, it's about 15 years. So all these different tissues cells are constantly being born, living, and dying off and the process. Of dying off is called apoptosis. It's a from a Greek word that basically means falling off in the sense of, you know, leaves or fruit falling off of a plant. So like that's that's it's apoptosis, sometimes they'll call it programmed, cell death,
right? Like basically a cell decides to go through this this falling off process. So what happens in aging is there's a third third type of cell, right? So you have healthy cells that can make, you know, new cells. You have cells that have lived their life and gone to apoptosis, but when cells gets stressed in certain ways, they can become what's called
senescent. And what that means is senescence, I'll won't give birth to new cells, but it also tends to be Frozen and it won't have gone through this falling off process. And so What happens as we get
older? Is that the amount of senescent cells in different tissues continues to creep up higher and higher and one of the big paradigms within the longevity Community. Is this idea that a big part of why we experience on healthy aging is accumulation of cellular damage and senescent cells appear to be if not the main one of the main reasons that contribute to aging as
Damage accumulation, powered. I'm so the solution for that is something that the Mayo Clinic and Scripps Institute of Aging coin. The term of a see, no lytic for and see, analytics are things that when we take them they would help fundamentally convince the cell to unfreeze itself and then finally go through this falling off process so that it can be removed from our tissues. And when Cena lytx have been used in animal studies, You see, like tissue Rejuvenation healthier aging or so.
I think to me, that's one of the more exciting like edge of science type things. So, the Cena lytx, basically convinced these damage chose to go ahead and die. Is there a really good solution for generating new cells beyond what the body just does naturally? Because there are two equivalent to that in the Spectrum as well. Yeah, so the so what would naturally happen again, going back to this idea, what constantly, you know, we're
placing new solid. So stem cells would be the resident stem cells in the tissue would produce new cells. And, you know, even so stem cells are all therapies or kind of a different thing and you touched on earlier. But even in an old person stem cells are still capable of making new progenitor cells, basically new Offspring. If they were Then tissues would shrink shrink shrink shrink.
So and then one of the things, maybe you'd be interesting because I know your background is, you know, bodybuilding and exercise. So one of the things I thought was really interesting in animals, so, you know, have you heard the term anabolic resistance? So, in animals so anabolic, we just didn't just for the audience that anyone doesn't know, is this idea that as organisms get older, the same anabolic Trigger or signal, so lifting weights, or more protein wear resistant to it.
Instead of having that anabolic response, like, creating new fibers, and better muscle growth wear resistant to that. So almost akin to insulin resistance that same idea. So, in what they've seen now, in a couple different animal studies is that in An older animals that a big reason that they have this antibiotic resistance is because of the senescent cells that have accumulated in muscle tissue.
And if you can prune those away with C, no latex, then it essentially turns those older muscles into much younger versions of the muscle. They respond much more like a young animal for the same anabolic trigger. So I think Timmy seen a Linux cover a lot of bases. The like, One of the, I think the three main cell types that see analytics originally were thought to influence the most one or fibroblast. So if I were blasted just the style that dominates all are connected tissues.
So you know, think of joint space, you know, adipose tissue under under our skin. So, you know, just widespread connected tissue is everywhere and seen. It's enough. Fibroblasts are just one of the cell types that seem to be most prone to become senescent. So, conversely doing things to prune away the the senescent ones automatically, then tends to replace those with new healthy versions. The same would be true for
immune cells. So in regards to Center Lennox, as a therapy is this is this pretty new territory or is this something that's been in research for quite some time and just now surfacing. So the even the idea of see, no latex that was coined in 2015 by mail. One Scripps researchers. So it's new. There's been a number of animal studies and then there's quite a few umin studies that are ongoing. So clinicaltrials.gov would be the site where trials are
pre-registered. So like by certain is an example is one of the Bots to be one of the more powerful compounds that can help convince these senescent cells to prune themselves away to go. Through this following offers I'll process and last time I looked there was ten Newman studies indexed in clinicaltrials.gov, some almost complete others, just recruiting patients, it's called by Satan
by certain FIA seti. N some tried it also called the certain so that's one of the more like intriguing seen. A lot of compounds. There are many known activities that can have a similar effect on senescent cells like cold plunging. Instances that having a similar mechanistic effect to, you know, converting you know, white adipose tissue to beige fat in a similar manner. You know, most of that just hasn't been explored and in part it's because short of doing a tissue biopsy, it's hard to.
There's no like biomarker or blood test, you could do to sail. Like, you know, this intervention, you know, increase or decrease in essence, all do, right? You have to almost look in the tissue, but what is Be true. Is that what you see in research? Is this idea of stress induced
premature senescence. So the general idea there is if you had cells in a test like a culture and you know let those cells divide over and over after about 50 divisions, they'll hit a limit where they won't divide anymore. They'll become senescent that's that's called replicative senescence has to do with something called the hayflick
limit and telomeres. But what would also Happen is way in advance without limit if you stressed that cell culture with extremes of temperature or ionizing radiation or, you know, other things that would cause stress like, nutrient, depletion, you'd also cause senescence. So my suspicion is that almost anything that causes a lot of cellular stress is going to create more senescent cells, where things we do to make cells more resilient and the same
things. Is that make, you know, our whole body more resilient tend to make solids. More resilient would make it so that they're going to be able to withstand that stress and not become senescent. So like exercise would be an example. It's one of the few things I've seen studied several times to help prevent cellular senescence, but these other bio hacking techniques that are widely used by intuition would be that many of those would be found to be similar to exercise,
where a hermetic goes. Would toughen up the cells so they're able to with And these stresses that they're exposed to and kind of shrug them off so that they don't have to become senescent. Gosh, okay. That makes total sense. So healthy Homedics stressors, not necessarily chemical stressors but anything that you can do from like an activity standpoint like the weight training at the cold plunging, extreme temperature. Modulation there to kind of weed out the weak, so to speak.
Yeah, and I think I'm like, let's take exercise again so you know. Making senescent cells completely natural, right? So if you have if you were coaching a twenty-year-old right and you had them doing, it really intense exercise thing they're going to make some senescent cells, right? Completely natural the same. If you were coaching a 50 or 60 year old and had them do that same intense exercise. But what would be different in
the young person? If we look into their muscle tissue a week later, the senescent cells would have, you know, come in gone up quite a bit over the first 24 to 48 hours were Getting tissue Rejuvenation and then they would have been cleared out. But what you would see in that older organism, they're going to still be hanging out two weeks later months later, right. They clearance of them is the issue and part of that is the immune system part of its other
things with aging. But that's that's the idea of why. I see no lytx might be super promising as we get older because the natural things that should remove these and that do and young people as we age, just don't seem to work as well. So what is, The definition of sin Linux specific. Is it just any compound of that
removes the senescent cells? Yeah, so there's like that's a really good simple way to think about it, the more like mechanistic way is senescent cells have certain characteristics but one of them is they resist apoptosis. They resist this bike like falling off process and what they would say is like scalp scalp Network. So senescence cell anti-apoptotic Pathways. So what they do is they exploit these cellular Pathways to linger in tissue. So what seen a Linux by
definition? Chin are things that help normalize those scap Pathways that they, essentially send signals to cells, and then the cells as oh, I get it, like, I should tip the balance. So, instead of resisting falling off, I'm in favor of it. And that tends to only happen on cells that are resisting a pop-top, a pop concert. So a lot of things like the by certain I mentioned, they tend to toughen up cells. They tend to be like something that's a hermetic stress polyphenols in general.
Often are like that. That so, you know, for healthy cells, they toughen them up and for cells that are resisting apoptosis but should go through it. They tend to tip the balance gacha gacha. And most of the research being done on this is looking at like, so it'll, it'll put the cells in this environment and then take a tissue sample to see how many remain or how is it typically done. Yeah. So the way they would usually do is say like in a like a mouse
study. Yes, they would do tissue biopsies after doing a scene Olynyk and see what And in those tissues and it's been pretty profound evidence that shows that they're seeing quite a bit of these cells fall off. Yeah. And then the other thing is just then that idea of tissue, we do have a nation and the analogy that I often like to give. And this is because our head of marketing is, is big into gardening.
So at one time I was trying to make it so she could understand it. So the idea is to think of a plan, right? It's completely normal, you know that a plant periodically would have some you know, leaves that we become damaged yellow and Plan, those leaves should ideally, eventually fall off the plant. Right? So that new growth can take their places. And if they don't, then what ends up happening is some of the nutrients that would be best
used elsewhere in the plant. They end up getting used by these damaged leaves damaged leaves also can spread that damage to other leaders, right? So, you know, one yellowing leaves can become too too can become for right, it can eventually harm the whole plant. So Garden is then thrown away things like a Starts to Yellow. A good Gardener will periodically prune it away, which then frees up those resources makes room for New Growth and creates like, you know, an overall healthier plant.
And so, when I think of see, no lid X and senescent cells, like that's the analogy I use, right? We're like no matter what age we can all make some yellow leaves. The difference between a 20 year old and Mia you know just over 60 is that I'm going to have a lot more of that if I don't get Help pruning them off. They're just going to gradually accumulate cash. Yeah, it makes sense that like the analogy for sure.
Is there a like a point at which too much of these compounds create some adverse effect, like too much starts to damage the healthy cells like the going back to the plant analogy, you know, you want to prune it, but you want to say, when a bush hog, the entire plant down like they're the Tipping Point. They're all right. You know, my default is that that there's generally always going to be the case for almost anything That too much good as no good kind of idea.
So, I do, you know, the yerkes-dodson curve is that ever come up for you? I am not familiar. Enlighten me. So your keys to your keys and Dodson were two researchers from about 100 years ago, but it just think of like, a, something that looks somewhat like a bell curve, right? Like a upside-down U and so, what, like, there's certain things that, like, what you would say is their dose dependent.
Meaning, you know, if if you double the Amount, you get twice the benefit, you know, and you double it again. You get even more better for, right? It kind of just goes off like a straight line and then there's other things that you know, the hormetic idea, right? Like there. It's more like a curve, right? Like there's you know, Goldilocks Amo like a just right amount of something where you get the best response and too
little or too much are equally. Problematic potentially and my bias is that most things, you know, many more than probably we realized I'll into that yerkes-dodson hermetic type of curve. Where. Yeah, there's there's just right amount. Now, there could be a pretty wide range of what that is, and it's going to be variable by the person, but I think exercise is
a classic example, right? Like so, you know, one of the mistakes I made when I was in the Navy is, you know, by circumstances where I would sleep deprived, just being on the ship and standing watches. My circadian rhythm. Body clock were messed up because often I was doing rotating ship work. Nutrition. Definitely could have been a lot better, because I had to eat whatever in a be food was. And, you know, working, you know, sometimes 12 14 hours a day.
Having, you know, four or five hours window for sleep. There wasn't much window to get much exercise, right? So, most of what I think of, as the foundational, things for hell, we're like hard resources for me to get hold of at that time, right? So, you know, in that that context, you know, I think of that is Multi stress problem, so doing something else that might be hormetic. You know when I'm well-rested that might have been a Tipping Point to just be disastrous at that point, right?
So you know I think context always matters and exercises is a good example is. So at that point to try to mitigate all these other things. I exercised the crazy amount when I had free time, right? I would I lived about 10 miles from the base. I would, you know if we were in Port I would often. Bicycle in and out of work. Sometimes even park my bike, you know, off like a mile from the ship on base and, you know, run that last mile either swim or do
something at lunch. Sometimes a pickup basketball, game, try to go to the gym after like home, right? So crazy amount of exercise and at the time, like I never felt like I got great responses, but I put all this time into exercising and I was in good shape, you know, compared to most needy people, but I never had profound.
Also grow things like that and part of it I think is I would just over training constantly in a context where I also wasn't getting enough sleep and prioritizing these other things. So I guess long story show would see? No lytx, I think of them the same way, right? We don't like just like with exercise, you want to do it and then recover from it. See analytics, I think of the same, right? So the most common way to approach, see no Linux is something that's been termed
hit-and-run dosing. So you do You know, these compounds and fairly high doses for, you know, two sometimes three days a month and then you take a big rest before you would do your next cycle and again going back to that, you know, pruning metaphor, right. A good Gardener is not going to prune their plant every day if they did, they'll kill. Are you want to prune it periodically? And then how it have a chance to recover. So, long story short, that would be the way that we recommend.
You do see analytics and that's the way they've been In study and resources that you would do a fairly high dose of them, but just for this really brief period of time and then give the tissues ample time to rejuvenate between that dose in your next cycle. Yeah, that makes total sense. And in the yard using some of these in the product line, as
well. Yeah, we have our product called qualia seen Olynyk and it comes in a box and it's got a blister pack with 12 capsules and our base recommendation is you just do six capitals. Eggs, each day today's at some point during the month. So for me, I take it the first weekend of a month and that's it. I don't you know, worry about it until the next month rolls around. Gotcha.
And when it comes to y'all's product line, specifically, I'm assuming you'll have a higher end products, a more expensive part of than most other supplements out there and I'm assuming a lot of that increased cost of just from the vast amount of research that you're doing in the quality of the ingredients. Points of compounds you're using. Yeah, that's a big part of it in a part is sometimes to get this study does just that the ingredient costs are a lot more. So I've seen a, you know, a
couple other products. So I going back to that bank compound by certain, you know, so if you were to go to the way that's being used in human studies is basically 20 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. So to get a scene oolitic, do she have to take a, you know, a large amount of it. It and, you know, I'll see sometimes other products and will be 100 milligrams. Total by this like well that would be good for like someone that weighed 12 pounds. Yeah. Right. So that's part of it too.
I like to use the study doses of often multiple ingredients that, you know, we feel that's delivers more value because I think the poorest value something is when you buy something. It doesn't do what you wanted to do, totally and with regards to supplements, there's a lot of smoke and mirrors at there and a lot of companies come into the market and just throwing something together. Put a sticker on there and put it down on Amazon.
Do y'all have like a third party testing for a quality assurance? And to know there's no banned substances in there anything like that? Yeah, so it depends on which we do. Third party like testing for quality measures for all of our ingredients, right?
To make sure that Ingredients, what, you know, you know what, we have on the label that is standardized to the right amount of the active compound, but in terms of, like, NSF would be, like a third party thing that often will test things for reassurance for an athlete. So we do that not NSF, we use a different. There's three main, informed choice, and it's f&b CSG. I think is the third one that all, you know, offer that service. So we do that for qual, your mind.
I don't think we've done it for other products. And part just that market like the athlete high-level athlete Market, that needs things to go through one of those before they could take. It has just not been our Niche. That said there's we don't use anything. So whadda would be the world anti-doping Association. They come out with a updated list, every couple of years, we don't use anything that would ever be on the water list. Nice. Yeah, because I compete in
natural bodybuilding. They've got a super exhausted van. A substance list I'm going to you know take your stuff. No that's been at least the the original formula has gone through informed choice so I can take that back to worry about it. And I think it's the BC SG. Well I'm my acronym might be wrong but I think that's the one we use for call your mind. Nice, very cool. Well what else is in the
pipeline for you? What's get you excited know that everything that you're doing right now for an anti-aging standpoint. But there's anything else that you've also been dabbling in here. Lately, we have been doing a lot of research in the area that I would guess you think of it as pain and inflammation but you know mostly in that like so an area that I think Jimmy is super interesting. Goes back into that. You know like recovery is for exercise, right?
So you know some 61 I mentioned that I was on the north side of 60 so there's compared to the 25 year old me that that crazy amount of exercise. I would tend to get you know more like pain, muscle pain, soreness joint pain if I did something crazy intense and then that can prevent me from getting back to things aggressively as I'd like, Or making the games over time that I still want to have at this point in my life.
So that idea of, you know, are they things that you can take that would alleviate some of that post exercise, you know soreness pain and allow you to make games faster. It's an area. I've been super interested in and that I'm working on. We've also been spending a bit of time on looking at maybe some of the other Hallmarks of Aging so you know. Are potentially things that you could include in your diet say like in a degree and rank as an example that may better support stem cells or t.
The mirrors that type of thing. So those are the two areas that I've been mostly focusing my research on and then most of my writing lately has been on Deck brain health and that's because come June end of June 20, 23 will be launching a new product called quality of symbiotic. That's a gut brain. Rain powder. So it will be a combination of Prebiotic fibers probiotics. Something called post biotics
and then fermented foods. And in our like, you know, pre-launch study on that we recruited, people, that had GI issues and made a big impact and like five common bucket areas of GI areas. So that one, we're all like, I know our team super excited to have that available. Yeah, that is very exciting. What's your take on oil is particularly vegetable oils. Have you done much research on that and they're supposed impact on overall inflammation and metabolic health. Yeah.
What's up? I'm fairly knowledgeable and it. I think so. I tended to fall to the like an idea of quality, right? Like so let's not you know, just throw something. Under the bus like the quality of something, they make a big difference and then you know, the other piece would be, you know, you and I might genetically be vastly different, right? Like the diet that you Excel on may or may not work as well for me, right? You never know until you run
that experiment. So the By getting back to oils. I can just tell you what I do, right? I eat a lot of avocados. If you know, I cut open an avocado when I see, you know any like Browning areas. I have those away and throw them out and profitable. Throw the whole avocado because right now you're starting to get that brown in your seek some oxidation some rancidity, right? So what oils I think it's super important to eat great quality
ones. You know, if there's any indication it's damaged, don't even run the experiment idiot like you better just getting it. Cam in all of the diet and things, I tend to you know, consume a lot of oils. I'm a big, you know, pasture butter and you know, olives avocados, you know knots things like that would be plant sources of healthy oils, heavy whipping cream, you know, full fat yogurt. I like that. You know, that see that heavy cream on the top. So I'm definitely not that go back.
I don't personally We use, you know, much that would be in the refined vegetable oil category. I tend to cook with coconut oil or butter. Yeah, fuck the refined, vegetable oils. They're all pretty much rancid. Anyways, like they go through a deodorization process so that you can't smell the rancidity component there. But I feel like if that was not the case, we wouldn't want to consume them because they would wouldn't be to get it past her
nose. So I feel like those things would all make sense to avoid for sure. Yeah. And I think, you know, with there's lots of things that if, you know, things similar to that like deodorizing weren't done, you know, the be enough tastes and odors we wouldn't eat them, right? That's the skill of the modern Ultra processed food companies, right? They do a skillful job of masking or eliminating all these things that we would be disinclined to eat if we actually tasted them.
Totally totally speaking of sleep Parks you Earlier, do you have a stance on melatonin specifically like people do often times supplement with that quite heavily? Is that something that's going to have a detrimental effect on their own natural production of melatonin? And it's quite possible. I mean, melatonin somewhat. Interesting, most things that are in that, like, you know, neurotransmitter neurohormone hormone, the analogy I use is
signal-to-noise, right? So there's, there's something I never learned this in medical school. I was in a psychology textbook, believe it or not. Are called the hooks. We have our law and hook and we were were 218, 1800s, researchers. But the gist of it. Like so the analogy would be imagine you go into a completely dark closet and now you Light
One Candle, right? Like big difference now, imagine you go into that same closet but there's already 99 and those lit and you'll let one more light, one more, right? You maybe noticed almost no difference, right? So the one candle like that unit is actually irrelevant. It's the Apportionable change in something, right? That creates that signal that response, right?
So, Most of our like most neurotransmitters hormones, you name it. Work on receptors, that are outside our of ourselves and I think of those as the ears and eyes of ourselves right in a simple sense and my intuition is the same principle holds throughout, right? It's that signal to noise, right? Proportional change is how change is detected by? It's not, you know, did we Light One Candle? It's the contact like was the noise level really loud or Was
it soft, right? You know, if we whisper in a quiet room, will hear it if we Whispering allowed restaurant? Probably not. So melatonin my personal bias is when I think it's a great thing that helps a lot of people, but when I was working more directly with patients, I went with a much more physiological dose when I did use it. So you know, 300 micrograms, instead of 3 mg, as an example. Like when you get to, you know, 35 mg, you two pretty big dose
that said. And I you know, compared to most things I just haven't seen in the research - adaptations like often what happens if you give something in an amount way higher than what we need. You just see. So again the analogy would be if we play loud music all the time. Well, desensitized to that, right will need to play it louder and louder to get the same response. So I haven't seen that with melatonin. You know. So it seems to be really safe to
even take those higher doses. But my, my bias is that if you don't need to take it, it's better to take the building block, you know, make sure you're getting enough tryptophan in your diet and then your brain and you actually do, you know what? Organ makes the most melatonin what the got about 90% of the Melatonin the bodies made in the got super important for the guy. Yeah it makes sense. Same with serotonin to believe right? Yeah. So we're told I think is even
higher. Fire and 9% is made in the gut. So, you know, like my bias and the way we approached qualia night especially since we're saying out, take this at dinner. Like you want to ideally promote people take melatonin in that window to spike it in the blood when your body would naturally spiking it. So you know, coming up to when
you'd be going to bed. And so we just thought a better route was let's give tryptophan some Co factors that help in the enzymes that can turn tryptophan into melatonin and I got My general thought process or, you know, relatively healthy people give your body the resources and a lot of figure out how to use them. If someone's, you know, really sick. And you know, I'd say they have some what I think. People don't always understand melatonin works most well as it's called a Chrono biotic
something that helps anchor. Our body clock in time it doesn't really work great like to help us fall asleep per se. I mean, it's not sedative, it's it doesn't necessarily help us, you know, get better quality sleep. And sometimes, you know, some people that take really high doses. They'll almost wake feeling a little bit sluggish, right? They don't like one of the things when we were investigating quiet night, I asked people specifically what it was like at the beginning of
their day. Like, you know, like did you wake up feeling refreshed? We able to jump out of bed. Getting going, right? Because that's what I care about. That's a better marker. That's sleep worked. Well, whereas, sometimes if the dose of Melatonin is too high, it can actually negatively impact that beginning of your next day. I've been taking this valerian root tea before I go to bed and that knocks me out completely. So balerion would be into that
in that sedative or category. Like it's maybe the most common one, but chamomile is another one you'll commonly see in. They can work really well or, you know, getting someone, you know, into that fall asleep. So, I think balerion as far as like, I know it would be the most studied single or that like sedative type of, like, you need something to help you fall asleep. Do you have a similar view of vitamin D as you do? Do melatonin.
And as far as like the, it's not likely going to have a drastically negative effect with higher dosages as well. So like vitamin D is interesting I we like as a company. We tend to be a lower dose for vitamin D, much more, you know, the daily value don't, you know? So like the RDA, you know, maybe double that as opposed to like, you know, you know, 5,000 IU or something, right? I think so.
One of the things I look at is individual studies on something, but I'll also look at the meta-analysis and You know, one of the main use cases of vitamin D as an example, would be for immunity right to make us more bulletproof and in those studies the best responses have actually been in say like a 600 to 800 IU range, you actually do slightly worse when you get up to the four or five thousand. So you know, so my default is again like what's you know, like is there, you know that your
peas, Dodds it right? Like that range where the most people are likely to get. The most benefits. Now that said if someone's deficient in vitamin D, they're probably going to do way better, at least initially getting, you know, like doing a much higher dose. So I'm like, I guess long story short, I'm not a Moore's better person and I try to find whatever the ingredient is, is
there like a dose range? Where I'm most confident that someone taking this long term is going to get a good benefit and again like you may be aware of this. But what sometimes Happens in studies is like, it'll be a really high dose of something. And the first four weeks that worked great by three months, like, you've seen that your piece Johnson, right? That current like you've already trapped through that and the way I think of it, as you know, again like exercise. Right.
Your you start coaching someone that's super sedentary. Pretty much any exercise program, you put them on. They're going to improve for a while. If you don't then aren't smart about it. At some point, they make. Plateau. Alright, we'll stop you keep doing that but they're not going to keep painting. And you know, if you're unwise about it you could maybe overtrain, right? So like instead of performance staying at that Plateau, now we would actually starts to gradually worsen, right?
So, you tracked through that whole upside down you and my bias is that almost anything. We do will eventually tracked through that upside down you that yerkes-dodson type of curve and what determines Men's, whether that happens is the intensity of something. So you know if someone decided to run a marathon each week for the next six months, right, they're going to most people unless there are genetic freak are going to track through that pretty quickly, writing caused
quite a bit of harm, you know. Conversely if someone said well I'm going to you know walk a mile every day for the next you know, five years. You know they may still be improving like going up that you know curve and not hit apply. At tell yet. So, the intensity of something is what determines the amount of time before we, you know, Bato and then start to not benefit from something.
And with, you know, things like vitamins and herbs the intensity, to me means to Dos. Yeah, no, I'm saying since, like, when like my default is that if I personally plan on taking some things for a long period of time which for many of our products I have taken them for long periods of time, But I want to make sure that I'm going to be more like walking, then having a person run a marathon and then one of the things I know I do and we recommend its a company.
Is that we all like to call your mind? Our original nootropic, we recommend people take say Monday through Friday, for me my work days and then take the weekend off by just like, you know, fracture size, right? You're not going to lift weights, most people every single day, you're going to periodically take days off and then, you know, over time Periodically, do you like a deloading week or week off? Right? So, I think that same approach is how I conceptualize you.
My Approach. Personally, the supplementation. So, unless you know something, you know, per se, like an insulin dependent person, right? Like of course, they need to take insulin every day, but for most of us that are pretty healthy and taking supplements, I my advice is, you know, feed it much more like you would a sound exercising program which makes a lot of sense and I feel like, you know, for a supplement company to say, Hey, look, Don't take our product X days a week.
I mean, that speaks volumes to as opposed to just you got to take it every day all the time. So yeah, I think, I think you're right on the money there. Well, dr. Kelly I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. I have learned a ton one more question for you when it comes to your own product line there. What have you personally been used on a regular basis and found the most benefit with and
what has that benefit been? So the I'm on a screen a lot computer mostly I'm not I don't spend much time looking at my phone but we have a product called quality of vision that I convinced our company to make like almost there to use cases to protect our eyes from all the stress of excessive screen time. So like it's arguably our simplest product but that's one that for me is just a game changer, right?
I stress my eyes out a huge amount because of my My profession and my work at this point, reading research and doing other work on my computer and, you know, so I rely on that. So that and then we have a couple different cognitive products. So the quality of Mind, our original one. We also have all your focus. We have an energy shot, we call it. Quality, nootropic Energy Shot, which is got you again? Nootropic herbs and it's so I that would be one of those three.
You know, each week I do Monday through Friday. Commonly the energy shot just because I don't think it means. I don't have to take as many capsules and then the newer product while you seen a lytic that we launched last June. I started taking that well before we even launched it.
So that one I think that's helped me do two things like I at this point in my life putting on, you know you know muscle you know losing fats a bit more challenging than it was even when I was in my late 40s and I feel like my shapes improved over the last year. Quite Substantially nice nice. But that's awesome. I'm excited to give him a shot.
I'm going to try some of these and kind of incorporate them in the mon supplementation protocol here and see if I can tell the benefit, I do appreciate the research that you are putting out as a company of the products themselves as opposed to just the compounds in a you know, Standalone research paper that may not be diving into the use case, scenarios of the people are purchasing, it are going to be using. So I think that speaks volumes for sure.
What can people go to? to learn more about the product line and and the research and just use specifically Yeah, so the best place is on neuro hacker.com and I'm not personally very active on social media, but neural hacker is especially on Instagram. So again, it's time we will be neural hacker. That would look for on Instagram and you know, our website is where I would put out, most of my content, like the writing other things I do at this point
in my career. So most of the, the blog posts they are from you. They're either from me or the science ones would typically be me or we have a neuroscientist named Sarah a day. That's what does quite a bit of the content as well. Very nice. Why would link answer that? Make it easy for people to find you and again, dr. Kelly, I really appreciate the time and the Insight. Keep doing what you're doing for sure. Thank you, thanks so much for having me on today. My pleasure.