Hello, ladies and gents Roberts. Thanks, kiddo. Service.com today. I've got special, repeat guests. Jim Howard back on the line. He is the head honcho at biosense. They make a really impressive little Ketone breath monitor that measures acetone I've been
playing around here for a while. I've been using it been kind of experimenting with it. He is incredibly knowledgeable when it comes to how this device can be used in a clinical setting, how it can be dictating, what your actions throughout the day are to improve your level of fat oxidation and honestly just knows a lot. What's going on in the space with And to measuring ketones measuring glucose. And this is how to kind of hack or measure these biometric so to speak.
So without further Ado, sit back relax and do the podcast with Jim Howard and we are Live Jim. How are you brother? Hey, good afternoon to you. How you doing Robert? I'm good, man, I'm good it. When was the last time we recorded the podcast on my show? Probably it's been over a year now, right? I think it was more than two years ago. It's like right, when right, when biosense was just being kind of launching a pilot, maybe right before our 8,000 9,000 person Pilots? Oh yeah.
Well, I've gots the biosense mean actually just used it in preparation for this podcast, but mine still says sample on the back of it. So I guess that must be one of the OG ones, right? Oh my gosh. So that it's been probably almost two and a half years. He's fucking you need it. We need to get you in. New one for sure. Is it pretty much the same functionality that with the newer ones?
Yeah, yeah there's about twenty six iterations of monitoring ketosis and the breath as it changes and that's that's the key thing. So it's probably four times as fast. It's the app has tons of information in there to guide, you know, competitive athletes or, you know, the soccer mom Community or whoever or clinics, you know, we have a big clinical side of our business too. But monitoring that level of ketosis, does it changes throughout the day and then providing feedback?
Nice. Nice. Well shoot man, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, beat a dead horse. But everything that we talked about in the last podcast you know, people can certainly listen to that one but it probably would be worthwhile since so much has changed in those two and a half years. Can you kind of give the listeners a little bit of background into what this biosense monitor is? And kind of what's changed, and what are you excited about going forward with it? Yeah, yeah.
So we came out of the gate as the only clinical-grade device that measures breath breath is really tricky as a as a You know, modality to measure Ketone levels as they change and, you know, in weight loss, every single program tries to put you into some level of fat oxidation or ketosis, we call that. So to do that, you prick, your finger a lot or you, you know, you breathe into a device and those of those have been faulty in the past because they don't measure the right part of your
breath. We just measure the last two cc's of your breath, that's our patent. And that's called fractionating breath at a very high-level scientific level. So, the key thing is that we just measure the right part, and then, But it's done multiple times per day. So the key things that have changed as we are very technically focused on just a device. Hey, here's your measurement. The things that changes the behavior modification, or the knowledge of multiple measurements per day.
Is this ketosis dosing kind of phenomenon, that's pretty pretty hot right now in the clinical side and we get to talk about that in a second but it's knowing exactly what happens throughout the day and getting feedback. When that happens, be it running or be. A it working out or be it you know nutritional interventions that you're taking or fasting, fasting is probably the biggest change that having all this fasting functionality and then
knowing what happens your body. So we just had kind of hardware for that. Now it's how do you wrap around these? These programs and that's what people really wanted is in sight. So hey, I'm doing a, I'm doing a fat, here's a good example right here. I used to do a 72-hour fast once a month, okay, for my own personal reasons and anti-inflammatory and other things. Now, I just, I need to do 24 hours above 15 on our device. 15 is is pretty moderate level of ketosis.
Mean, that's where some of the autophagy, Eric, you know, cellular regeneration stuff kicks in major anti-inflammatory benefits, you know, I lose weight if I want to but I don't I try not to. So all these things is like it leads to one thing as this dosing of ketosis, how deep and how long not not where you are. Once a day, just Checking it out because that's a false negative or false positives. Like, where am I going? How does my body react?
That's it. So like, there's like when people think of testing ketones, testing glucose testing, anything where they've got, you know, with regard to ketones, you get your three primary metrics. You've got your acetone which is the breath. You got your seat OS to take in the year and you get your beta-hydroxybutyrate in the blood. Most people tend to, you know, start with the urine strips because they're cheap, they're easily accessible.
They get them at Walgreens CVS. Sediment after about a week or two have been in ketosis your body becomes efficient at using the ketones, your excreting less of him and you wind up not even registering on those strips. So most people, then turn to the blood metrics for the beta-hydroxybutyrate, what are some key differences between what you're actually learning from those blood Ketone readings versus what you're learning from those breath Ketone measurements?
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. So, you know, scientifically the way to check Like beta-hydroxybutyrate is through a venous draw a capillary draws, good but that's not the gold standard just so you got to let me preface that. Is that trials have shown it's about it can be as much as 20 percent off and then you'll see that like in the packaging and websites of those capillary devices at home, they'll say up to 20% off. Hmm. So you got to take it with a
grain of salt. It is a that is a storage key tongue. Okay. Meaning you're someone like you and I that are pretty darn cute. Oh, I do Didn't, you know, people like Peter, Atiya and Dom D'Agostino's. They're going to store and you see them in their measurements with biosense and Beach be, you're going to store less and less Beach be over time. You just don't need to store as much to convert into what is
metabolized that is co acetate. So a COS it's was metabolized by our mitochondria and then and then as it's expelled in the body through breath, that is acetone. So acetone into cos take go really hand-in-hand, super tight. We're Beach. Be is a storage that converts into something else, a different type of Ketone and that's that's where things are. So but ketones in general are signaling, they're signaling. So it's not just hey, I don't have as much glucose and I'm
burning fat for my fuel. There's a signaling ability in ketones in your blood and ultimately then in your breath or & Co acetate, is also in your blood to. That signaling is really really critical. And we've seen kind of the Our of that. And a lot of the clinical trials that were involved in, which may not be a concern to Consumers, but it's really, really interesting. And all of these chronic diseases that we can talk about in the future and a lot of
people. So like I've done all kinds of little experiments, you know, with my competition preps and whatnot. I try to monitor my glucose Ketone levels to add all the just just so I can kind of see how things are correlated and tracking and a lot of people will notice a like a pretty significant increase. Kris in beta-hydroxybutyrate numbers with a large bolus in dietary fat, especially if it's something like a like a name, CT oil, or, you know, coconut oil or something like that.
That's going to have a hide lauric acid content, and likely convert to MCT with something like that. That's not really going to show so much in the breath acetone reading, correct? It does, no, it does. So we yeah. So even even Exotics ketones. I mean, all this companies send those exactness ketones to us. The difference is that whereas MCT or exogenous ketones Esters
are salts thing. You'll kind of get that big bump within 30 minutes and then you're back out of your back, to your normal range in about an hour, right? And that's, that's, that's pretty similar in most of these types of thing, they MCTS probably little slower, but with biosense the device that's measuring. What is actually, you know, member that conversion, even a BHB Esther, for example, will have to convert Hurt to see do a state and then it, then it comes out as acetone.
So that actual activity that, you know, the, the mitochondria metabolizing that that takes a while longer. And, and so you'll see that your Peak could be in two or three hours, and it might last, you know, that wave entire wave last five or six hours. That's what we see on, average here of the Baseline of like, no Ketone levels. And someone sends us these, you know, these exact words How do we test that? Usually, it's kind of you get to
this low level of ketosis. You maintain that for a few hours and then you start to fade out. So it's much much much slower, which is probably a better indicator, you know, probably better indicator of How It's metabolized. Okay. There's definitely a correlation is just kind of a delayed. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, and thing about ketones is, you know, where is glucose goes up and down, boom, boom,
boom, all day. You know, if you do more than probably five or six Ketone measurements in a day, You're going to get the same kind of curve, it just doesn't change that that fast and on the flip side, if you do one measurement a day, you're going to probably get a false - false positive, right? So your curve is you know, your ideal, he's like three to five measurements day if you really want to know biofeedback and close that feedback loop on what
you're doing, okay? If you just want a snapshot of, you know, prick your finger or use bioscience get a snapshot of last few hours. I don't know how you know how important that would be to some What are what are some actionable takeaways like if someone's using biosense meter or any of these breathalyzer M, like, what are some action we take those out? What are people going to get the most benefit from using them for like if they've got a specific
goal in mind? What are what are they needed to see on that monitor? And what are they going to need to adjust with their day-to-day actions based off of what they're seeing? Yeah, that's great. So here we give you two examples. One is just nutritional ketosis and one would be like in fasting. So let's just say, aye, Show like myself. I want to you know, I want to lose a little bit. Wait for example and you know have inflammatory benefits, all those things like that.
So typical ketosis benefits is I want to be able to start to experiment and say, you know, in the morning, I wake up, this is what I eat and I think I'm going on this path of being in this state of burning fat as my fuel. I think I'm there, okay? I don't want to know if I am because quite frankly, this is limited in Valley. That's Like will illumine device would do. That's a breath. Device can tell you, it gives you a proxy of are you burning fat? Are you burning fuel?
That doesn't really help anybody. What you really want to know is, hey, I'm eating this food and it's it's it's not impacting my Ketone levels or I met Dan Aikido brick, for example, in which I love. You know, these are the things that I do and this is what my specific level of fat burn is or fat oxidation or ketosis, it's all the same thing. So, you know exactly how to tweak that behavior at a personalized level.
Okay. So it's not knowing, you know, knowing if you're in ketosis is about as value because knowing if you have a fever you kind of want to know what that is and how that changes throughout the day, same thing, same thing. With ketosis. You run you worked out. What is it going to do? And it's going to be different for everybody, you know, it is different for everybody.
We start to personalize that and give that feedback to say, hey, by the way, you may not need to too fast for 72 hours to get the same benefit. You may need only just do 40 where takes Roberts, 72 to get that same benefit of, like high levels of ketosis for a certain amount of time. So time, it's kind of like time in range a little bit with glucose. Gotcha. Gotcha. As you mentioned working out and training. So when I've done, like I've
wanted to see James in the past. And what I noticed is all pretty pronounced spike in blood sugar intra training and then immediately Afterwards and a corresponding drop in blood ketones. I'm assuming that's just from mobilizing the the muscle glycogen. Yeah. What's happening with the breath ketones? During that time, I haven't really tested around workouts as it. Is it going to have a similar, you know, Bell Crown now because keep in mind, what is that? What is that beach be doing?
The BHP is converting into something that can be used. So you're actually when you work out you're probably going to see a decrease in Ketone level. So be aware of that you know, decreasing Ketone levels when in all All actuality you're actually using more, you know, depending on where you are in your levels of fat oxidation, I mean, you're going to be using
that. So A Better reflection of that arguably is acetoacetate or acetone because we're not worried about what's being converted into something that's being used. We're talking about what's being used. Okay, two very different things. Conversion of storage Beach. Be into what's being used and that's where biosense measures that. So biosense measurements. Like you would think Ketone levels will increase during a workout and beats be tends to
decrease in a workout. They will converge over time. OKC, do acetate. Logically would probably increase like acetone. So that's the key thing now glucose, you know depending on what your your glucose levels are obviously you know, that's a different story. Yeah. That was my assumption that mean that made sense in my mind but I haven't really tested around it
so that I'm glad you clarified. I haven't done much to Extended fasting I've done, you know, like to Extended fast one last was like five and a half days but I didn't have I don't think I was using the bow since M then. But I was getting some crazy extremes on the Ketone and glucose from. Like I was getting, I don't know, I think 33 blood glucose milligrams per deciliter and I think my ketones were up around 7:00 or something like that.
So I'd be curious to see what the ace score was on the Bayou. CM. Yeah, yes you would be. And you know foremost, here's just an average the This measurement is a level of is a derivative of parts per million of acetone the Ketone. But it's goes it's a zero to 40. So it's very, very very specific. So you probably would top it and a five day you'd probably top it out. Probably. Okay, and it's usually about 10 on average, 10 to 12, capillary
measurement. So 1 millimolar is roughly the equivalent, but you don't want to compare these their apples. Don't wonder they're different Ketone bodies, right? Yeah. So really we should be Be measured against acetone tanks, or Venus draw BHP, and not really a capillary measurement. So although it's a good proxy, the biases M, it just measures. Hi. Once you once you top it a, try like that. Is that what the current display that shown? Yeah. Yeah. So same thing. Same display.
It's like when you get over 40 Aces, which is the equivalent of you November 20 to 40. So I'd be the clone of a most people of about 4. Mahler. Okay, for millimolar. And and the example you just gave you a really, really really high. Yeah. Yeah I mean you're in a really significant out of pejic state. I mean you're doing some seriously serious cellular clean up there. Yeah, I don't, I don't do that often. Like I think one, I think one people won't want to stick.
I see a lot of people making these days is, they'll do extended fasting far too frequently. Also the context of just simply being in a caloric deficit, and if you're doing Both, you know caloric restriction for fat loss purposes and you're also doing extended fasting effect. That's just too many stressors on the body. But if I'm going to really, you know, significant caloric
Surplus, like I am right now. All oftentimes throw-in, you know, an extended fast on a quarterly or you know, and yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go clean down the context of being in that Surplus. Yeah, exactly exactly. So and then you know, the fascinating thing is that it all depends on your Baseline to so your success like do you need to do a five-day fast? Well guess If you're coming from a carb restrictive, Baseline and your and you go for a pretty significant run or bike ride, it
remove your blockage in stores. You're going to be really fast to get to your target a level. So you, it really is like it's all about your time in the range of repair. And for me, I seek I want 24 hours above 15. Yeah. And it used to be used to take me 72 hours and it takes me about 50 to 55. So I'm getting more efficient at doing the same job. Job. But again, that's that feedback loop is closed and I just didn't have that information before.
So I can do a lot of different things and that's the cool thing about all, these clinical trials that were mullet is it, we enable some of these researchers to do this. You know, we have an infertility study we have in Europe, we have, you know, obviously ongoing Alzheimer's studies going on. We have three here at Washington University in St. Louis ranging from type 1. Diabetes to compare two diets to pancreatic cancer.
Goes on and on and on not, is that people want to close this Loop and understand what is my death, and my width of this magical medicine, called fat oxidation or ketosis, but it's been the wild west thus far, and we're trying to put some structure around it to help people make sense. But from a clinical setting, have you noticed they're being a significant difference between reaching those levels via endogenous production of ketones versus you know, exile.
And supplementation. It's very rare that we have seen that doesn't mean it's not happening because I know there is some studies like in Canada, but we don't see a lot of exemptions Ketone activity and clinical trials, okay? And the reason being is that from a triggering mechanism, I just don't think there's a lot of data out there.
Now, in the athletic performance side, you certainly there's some pretty good data on exotic Mesquite owns, you know, for a race or, you know, mental clarity For it, you know, if they are even TBI. For example, TBI is a really good example, of where exogenous ketones come in, you're going on a jump out of a plane, get checked up on exogenous ketones, very quickly for brain recovery and things like that.
So, so I think that there's a lot of value there, but not in the typical chronic disease, management or prevention reversal. More likely reversal side, not not so much, doesn't mean that they're, it doesn't work. There's just such little research on that. Yeah, I've been kind of playing around with. I mean, companies have been sent me all these exotic just ketones lately. So I've just been, you know, using them for various developments.
Yeah. But I like them for like I can confidently say that I love the the Esters I think the Ketone IQ H VM in brand, they sent me a bunch and I've been using them before podcast and I feel like having, you know, 30, I think it's in males is what it's do stat. You know, about 15-20 minutes prior to a podcast, I just feel noticeably sharper. Yeah and that makes sense. So there is research for that those like what is that immediate impact out there for something like that but it's not
going to do anything. I don't think of this isn't a research on this about the impact of chronic disease, and that's where we kind of play a little bit better. So I think you're right about. This is like, and it could last longer too. Like you have that and be cool to test out with biosensors. See, how long does that last? Your Baseline is pretty, low carb, is it is, I think Robert, right? I mean, most of the time, your?
Yeah, I can't tell you. I mean, the last time I had a actual carbohydrate-based, Was seven plus years ago? Okay, there, yes. So you know you that's where it's really interesting. I here in our office we studied some of these exemptions ketones and there was that us of us that have a high Baseline of ketosis. It doesn't have nearly as much of an impact as those that have no Baseline, you know, which is a different study, developing itself would be pretty interesting to see the difference.
But, but yeah, yeah, that's quite I use it to. I mean, that's the one time I use this for mental Clarity of, like, If I have really really really important meetings and it might be in the morning. I I'll I'll throw down an exaggerated ski time for sure. I've heard of people having success with it for sleep. Like they'll take it you know 30 minutes before going to sleep and I've I've kind of played
around that a little bit. But honestly right now I mean with me having a brand-new baby, any any experiments I'm done with sleep or totally skewed. So there's not really any point in testing and I I didn't, I don't find it. Yeah, I tried that on sleep too and I did not. I don't see any value there, too. But I can't, you know, you never know. The problem with this whole Ketone ketosis Marketplace is that it? We're talking about a biomarker.
Yeah, the biomarker changes throughout the day and no one's really been wired into that as like I got it. I gotta figure out my full day, you know, I mean a single measurement. It is still 50% off and time-weighted average. Why would anybody do a single measurement? So the key thing is just like glucose you can check your glucose and if it's not you're fasting glucose. It's It's kind of well, what did you eat the last 20 minutes? San Diego.
He'd been. So you want to kind of start to to tell the story and his story is it goes up and down and how deep am I in it? And and then make sure you have the right device to support it. So if you're pricking your finger just you know recommendation 3 times a day yeah master key to Mojo would love to hear that for their sales. But I mean this reality of it you need to do it multiple times per day to really have that ya know make sense man. How often are you typically
using the mouse? M. Yeah, so I do I'm more of a I've gotten to the point where I used
it for a year. Really making sure that my protocol would I do what I all these family obligations Bubba, that I can, I'm kind of at the four to six level like really close to N and then out kind of cycling in and out type of think that's my and then once a month I I do a three-day ish fast but I'm getting more efficient at it just based on numbers and then and then I'll do like A 24-hour fast once a week.
So I use it for fasting primarily or if I'm trying like new foods, you know, like new protocol type of thing, any change, I'll monitor just to make sure that it's not having an impact. I do a lot of sleep hacking meaning like I'm monitoring sleep impact so there's a lot of things that I'll test it with. But yeah. So I would say use a probably on average three out of five days in this initially every day three times a day or five times a day somewhere in there and then fast fasting.
I will say this Listen, I use it probably every two hours. Yeah and I would imagine there's a lot less flux with the biosciences opposed to like a blood test with things like you know the Don phenomenon waking up in the morning. Yeah. Like it's just probably going to be less, you know, variance in that. I would imagine. Yeah I mean I don't know if we've done add-on effect where you know your body's release glucose and ketones could go down things like that.
You're just not, I don't think there's been extensive studies on that with biosense but you're right. It is That I think the variability were really addresses, is in working out, you know, like having a storage Ketone convert, that's a full step that we avoid. You know, it's like Cito acetate is used and this is how comes out of the body and its expelled that way. So it's a little more real time. This is what's happening to you.
So, that's the key thing. I mean, you know, it's pretty broad measurement, range, 0 to 40 and contender in ketosis is just 5, right? 25. So there's a lot of room to go north of there and you know patients with epilepsy live, pretty high in that scale. Hmm. Whereas people in low levels of ketosis, still are getting your fat burn for weight loss. And you know, some of these patients, gosh, man. There they gamify it and are up there in the 20s 30s.
I think, I mean, I just tested about two hours before this: I was at 23, okay? Wow. And I feel like whenever I'm testing so much of it depends. Ends on whether I'm in a caloric Surplus or deficit, like what I'm going to cut for a prep, all of my numbers are just much much higher at Baseline than when they're in when I'm in a surplus
like my ketones are higher. My glucose is lower like everything's just more extreme when I met a cut but when you're in a surplus least when I've found is that they're just a lot more of a buffer there like you've got your taking in so much of an excess that your body is is not really operating on the extremes from a biofeedback standpoint. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's that's the key thing. It's all about one thing. Connecting. The dots. You do something, you feedback
and then you tweak it, right? Yeah. That's that's what it's all. Chronic disease, prep for competitions, you know, typical guy trying to lose a beer belly. All of these come back to. I got to have feedback and what the heck I'm doing. And I need to have that more than once a day because my body changes more than once a day and only. Yeah, that's the key thing.
Have you ever known of any He studies done with the bounces Peter and maybe they're not black official studies but just kind of like what you experienced in notice with what people are using them that you know people with varying degrees of feta Temptation. Like right now you know metabolic flexibility is one of the hot topics and everybody's trying to do not know bounce back and forth between ketogenic diet and eating, you know, being able to justify their carbs on
the weekends and stuff and I'm just kind of curious this connect the dots on that and see if that is causing any lack of true fat. Patient basically. Yeah, I know, we haven't, we haven't analysis in allies data on that know. I don't know if you have enough of that to know exactly what someone's behavior is until they start logging and we will have all that capability of like putting exactly what someone eats, we have logging in there right now and in the app, because the app is what's
driving? The behavior modification, right. Let's keep things like setting your targets and then hitting those targets for weight loss or you know all the programs we have our like within the app our weight loss. Metabolic. Flexibility, which is lower levels of ketones. And then the higher ones are like anti-inflammatory which are important for me. I had six knee surgeries all in, you know, from soccer and things. So you know, it's different for everybody.
But now I don't think we have that type of data, that's pretty interesting. You know, on that fat adaptation over time, I can just, you know, personal stories is that I'm pretty darn quick to get back into a mode where ever. I need to be. Yeah, you know, it's just been a few years so It's really easy for me to kind of dictate my where I want to be and it's being it's you know it's cool, it's just becoming quicker and quicker and quicker.
So I kind of feel like I'm in full control of where I am in fat oxidation and intense, man make sense. Yeah, yeah. You may feel the Lumen earlier and they sent me a lumen device and I've kind of played around with it like three times. I think, can you kind of compare and contrast? What the difference in technology are the kind of what What one is showing over the other? Yeah, I mean that's that's a, that's not a medical device, that's a consumer device.
So, first big difference is that by a sense, device is a medical device. So, we're monitored by the FDA, and that's a, you know, just that's what you do with devices that have that much clinical background to them. So, number two, is that we measure fat burn a or fat oxidation or ketosis as it changes that measures. Respiratory quotient. But they which is a quotient of oxygen intake to carbon dioxide, you know.
Exhale they don't the Lumen device to my knowledge does not measure oxygen so it is a proxy so pretty good guess of where you might be in a state of fat burner car burn, okay? And that's it. So it gives you hey, you're probably burning fat for fuel or probably burning carbs for a fuel and they'll give you five or six. I think five ranges on that. So they're not measuring oxygen. So what is the the metric that they are measuring the measuring
carbon dioxide in your breath? So, it's a, it's a proxy for respiratory quotient, which is what is measured in a metabolic cart in a hospital. So so, so if you wanted to do it the right way, you'd have to do in hospital, you couldn't do it. The device where's acetone is a different gas. We measure we measure exactly what your fat burn data is not. Not what not the, if, but exactly where you are.
So, I think about this, like, again, the fever example, like Lumen could say, hey, you have a fever and then we're thumb, you know, biosensors a thermometer what your, what your actual temperature is as it changes throughout the day. So that's that's the difference. So Lumen would be limited as soon as so in a measurement. Like it was we have 0 to 40 Lumen measurements are the 024 equivalent of our 02:40. So They're just the very very bottom of that.
Like you're burning carbs which would be a zero on biosense, are you burning fat? I'm not afraid of lumen. I mean, I I tried it around like I said, a few times and it was like, the day it was giving me was just really skewed. Like I was saying that I was eating way too many carbs on my, I haven't had carbs in seven years. I don't you talking about? Yeah, give me data. That was just totally wonky. So, like, I'd never really put much stock into what it's telling me.
Yeah. So again, it doesn't measure oxygen. So it's a, you know, it's a It's a device that could maybe give some proxy to some people. I'm not really sure who that would be. But yeah, so we're really focused on providing the behavior modification over long-term and giving biofeedback actual real biofeedback, not a, not a proxy to something but actual biofeedback based on what you do and then wrapping that up in an app that says, hey, do this differently or do that.
So that must be, I mean like with the media that I'm using from that OG M Pool from, you know, two and a half years ago. I don't know of any of that. Functionality.
So I must be just on the way beginning beginning stage because like the, I guess the app now like it's one thing I did notice about the Lumen, is it had all kinds of actionable data even though I didn't really agree with the actionable data, I can see how that would be very, you know, complementary to people that are wanting more directions. That's kind of what y'all have done in rolled out with the new. Yeah Direction. Yeah, yeah.
We're heading that direction to it would be a little bit more. Physiologic you know, where his content content. On some of these apps are consumer apps like, hey, eat less this or do that? That's, that's kind of kind of apply to everybody. Doesn't really matter what your
biomarkers, right? It's like, hey, do this and kind of applies and I don't agree with a lot of it, because it's not a, you know, they don't really seek ketosis in any of their content in the Lumen device because they can't measure it, right? So it'd be more of a just simple, real simple basic stuff, but there's value in that and a lot of just kind of someone that wants to understand metabolism 101. Are you know, first paragraph of
your lesson type of thing. So where we fit in as more of a ultimately prescriptive model of, hey, this is where your body's going as it changes throughout the day. Let's look at what can be changed on the line and that's the stuff that we'll have in the future. We don't have that right now. That could be like hey try eating one hour earlier, try doing this or that and and then you should put this in but right now today is hey you're in a program. Let's say for weight loss.
It's take 3 measurements today so it is very Specific Target above, five, Aces to 5 to 10, okay? For the next 28 days, document your weight in there and then let's look at that correlation and then you your pinged, hey,
need to take a measurement now. So just a little bit more prescriptive and and you don't have to sit still think, you know, with metabolic wear with like Lumen, you have to sit still for a while, you know, by essentially can do that on an airplane or under way to work or whatever you want to do. Yeah, totally. I mean it's exciting stuff man. Like, I feel Pamela's. Mm. As a whole is something that the general population is just incredibly confused by. She's yeah.
And the consumer space. Yeah for sure. Yeah. And there's like like you've got you know a lot of the Bro dieters you know heralding you know calories in calories out is the end-all be-all. And there's a lot of people, the low-carb keto space that are in total, disagreement with calories in calories out because, you know, that's quote-unquote, not worked for them. And I mean, there's some truth
to everything. I feel like that all matters, hormones matter, Cal matter, energy balance matters, but when you look at the energy balance, you know, that should ideally take into account. You know, what your hormones are doing, what your activity levels are doing, what your consumption is. Like, like, that is kind of like the all-inclusive, you know, what is your energy intake and energy expenditure. And I feel like where things are going with these, you know, breath devices.
Like, biosense, especially if you're following a ketogenic diet. Low carb diet in your measuring and you're getting more actionable data with this quantifiable acetone measurement. You can really start to harness whether or not You are in a energy Surplus or energy deficit, based off of this feedback. That's right. And then tweak it tweak what you're doing and then see what happens, you know, and it's, you know, you don't, I don't certain kind of these. You're going to need biases for
a long, long, long, long time. But ultimately, we're here to help educate the specific. So you can do whatever you want to end up doing. And, you know, our job is to wean you off of these with phenomenal, Behavior changes, you know, or knowledge in the competitive space. It's like knowledge of where you need to be and then just then it's more to check in type of thing, but you got to have real data. That's why I like a medical
device. I mean you just said it like there's so much stuff out there about metabolism like CGM for weight loss. May come on lipolysis or weight loss is fat. Oxidation, is burning fat as your fuel. That's not in glucose, glucose limit your glucose to stop gaining weight but then there's another side. So there's just Infamous
information everywhere. I need to this 18:6 diet, where do whatever you want for, Showers and you're going to be in phenomenal shape, you know, by not eating for 18 hours. That's not going to really work that. Well, yeah. So the good news is though, is that, you know, the real companies are being separated from the from the ones that are kind of pulling the wool over
our eyes but that'll take time. Yeah, hey, that's your job people like, you gotta go to make sure you're sure, you're sure and no I mean, I like I mean you and I talked way back in the day and I like the direction the company's going and there's a lot of there's a lot. Of testing devices out there that I think you know, we're not really worthwhile and when it comes to testing, you know, blood test with the finger Pricks.
Like you know, if I'm doing a whole bunch of experiments I like Gathering that data but at the end of day, at the end of the day, everybody's goal in my opinion, should be to effortlessly, maintain a very healthy composition while eating incredibly intuitively and not tracking anything. Now, if you're not there yet, you should dial in everything and pull out all the stops and get there as efficiently as
possible. All, but, you know, for for the people that are not there yet, which I would argue, is the majority of the population. That's certainly the case when you look at the obesity rate right now, yeah, yeah. Being able to have actionable data like this and quantifiable tools that you can use to get this feedback, I think is
incredibly valuable. Yeah, you know, it gets even deeper tune that summon Le like you and I that we probably pretty darn knowledgeable about this space just because of experience and we be lots of Research papers and we, you know, in our site where in the research but the bottom line is, even if once we tweak that and we've got it, we're in a really good place, our bodies do change and, you know, I'll give you some personal examples, like, cortisol levels, really, really
screw with my metabolism big time. You know, I run a company, you run a company, you know, like it's the stress can be pretty high at times, they like, why am I not sleeping so? Well, it's the cortisol levels
are higher, that's impacting. Your ability to get into these higher levels of High impact, you know, Ketone ketosis levels, you know, like, and I can feel that in the inflammation, like wait a minute, something's different and and it usually is related to things like stress, which means, then I got to tweak it, you know. And I'll test myself and like I'm sure enough you know I'm in much lower levels of fat oxidation or ketosis and I thought, you know, and even
though I'm doing the same thing. So we're complex bird, we really are, then we assume anything, you know, are you aware of any devices in production? Or you know, in the R&D phase that are going to be able to allow us to monitor. Cortisol levels real time. No. But I boy, I'd get it. Yeah, that would be like that. Well reliably, I mean there's going to be things like its saliva and this and that and sweat and stuff like that. But I mean, reliable real information on this.
That would be fantastic. I feel like people need to be able to see that and like a real time, you know, data feedback wave. Oo well actually probably should meditate RC probably turn the TV off. I should probably relax but like people do a blood test you know once every two years and it says their cortisol levels are elevated and they just forget about they don't do anything about it. Yeah, well here's I did mine.
It said they're fine. Okay. When I knew that they weren't because waking up at 4:00 in the morning, you know, every day thinking about cool things and, you know, spent 35 bucks on a test of cortisol test. And at the time I took the test was after I had Broke now up and had a cup of coffee. I was chilled out. I was sitting outside. I'm like I'm in a pretty meditative State here in a good place.
I'm checking my cortisol levels. There's like I need and I just spent 35 bucks to tell me something. I already know that my cortisol levels are good. Well, they weren't three hours ago when I was kind of half sleeping half not when I can't even take it that. So it's your right like these Spot Shot test and Kita. Arguably ketones are like that. Like they're just not a great reflection of reality of our body's changing and that's what needs to be. Rest.
Yeah, and that has such a trickle-down effect on everything. I took a testosterone test and I took, I was stupid. When I took that took it after having literally stayed awake for a week because it was like, batshit crazy in February of this year. There's a whole bunch of stuff going with the business, I literally wouldn't sleeping and I was like stress levels to the freaking Nth Degree and that took this this test and my testosterone literally was cut in half and had I not taken a
test. I would have thought nothing of it. It but then when I actually recognized, you know, and put the pieces together. I'm like wow. Okay I hadn't slept hardly at all this past week, stress levels, through the roof. Everything is just totally jacked up. But, you know, I don't do tests like that very often. So I think if there was a way to measure that more frequently from like a stress standpoint, yeah, that would probably be. I put more emphasis on that to anything.
Yeah, that's the same exact thing that same test that I took actually was testosterone and, and cortisol levels and when it In the my cortisol levels were normal, which is, there's no way they were or they were at the very moment, but then testosterone was low and I'm like, that's not true either. So it's you got, it's about the story. You know, it's not snapshot, it's the story and we gotta figure out a way to do that. So hey, you find that product. Let me know. I'm going to get it.
Yeah, let's this next thing on your list of things to, you know, crap there in the warehouse, man. Just get to worry about that, would you? So, I wish is that easy? Yeah, I'm medical devices. What a what? It's in the pipeline, man. What are you excited about? As far as the Bayou since m, is there something else totally unrelated to that? That you get cooking? No, we do. You know, it's pretty much on the Demeter is, I mean, is a collection for an experience, right?
The devices device. It's like, what do you do if you have the only clinical non-invasive way to track, moving shifting ketones without pricking yourself mobilized. A, you've got that data, what does that mean? And it really means that you can build digital programs that are super smart and I mean really smart, not Not all that different than what all these companies are doing with CGM on the other side of the metal box, which CGM? Notice that? None of those measure ketosis or
fat oxidation. They can't, they don't have a way to do that unless they work with us so what you just manually enter your blood pressure or something like that. So there's that's there's an exciting array of different applications. So I would say that's the primary thing. We've Yeah, so it's same Hardware obviously much upgraded but the digital side of this and behavior modifications, where we've invested really, really heavily and you'll sink with heads up Health, right?
Like all that is synchronized. Yeah. Heads up health and Doc sink and Elation and chronometer and carb manager and Senza. And I'm sure hola life ohmic with our fasting app so there's a lot that we we embed ourselves into and then obviously, we have our own Melody of fasting and things like zeros and other one, if you're using 20 app, can integrate with that. And then we have our own fasting, we clocks and all that. That have actual Ketone measurements instead of just a guess.
Nice, nice. That's yeah, so a lots in the hopper and you said the new devices, they're faster to I guess, like when I click the button, like I've got to wait, like 20 seconds in order for me to blow that's fast, that's still pretty fast, because it has to heat up the sensor to a
certain level. Level and then it's a smart sensor so it knows that it's kind of killing off any type of biologic or anything that's on the sensor so it will heat it up really really high like 300 degrees this and burn that off.
Now if you have if it's sitting around hand sanitizer, which yours clearly was not, it could take a while, you know, like you got a burn that off it so alcohols not a friend of sensors, so that's it. So you know, first time you use it a it takes probably 23 minutes or if you have any While and then each time you use it might take 30 seconds so you stored. Your is really really well you started somewhere and then I my desk. Yeah. Okay there you go.
And then the the app obviously just download the app. My BIOS are biosense from readout health and then it connects everything together. So it sinks and then and here's what you've been missing. You got firmware, that's probably two years old, the app uploads, new firmware all the time. So your device is up. Upgraded all the time but you've got one that's so old that you got a sample one. Will get you a new one. Then we'll shoot man. Just let me know.
I'll buy it. I like I like the device. I put my money behind it for sure. Okay, cool, man. Well awesome man. I'm are you going any conferences this year? Yeah, we just did metabolic Health Summit, which is great. Kito Khan first time we're going to that next month, you're going to be there. I'll be there. All right we'll we'll pass pass each other there and love your A Bricks, by the way, I freaking love. Absolutely. What's your favorite flavor?
The chocolate. The chocolate one, but it's a little problematic in that I snack. I mean I really like this so I've got to make sure I'm really, really I'm disciplined. Yeah a lot of like a lot of people love they'll come up into pieces then just kind of snack on my just do a whole brick at a time so I can't really do. I've been doing like to add a here lately but I don't really do more than one so it's much easier to kind of moderate. At that cuz I'm not just snack it out there.
Yeah, I do about half. Okay. And I'll do a half over the course of an hour just kind of snack not, but it, that is to me is like perfect and it keeps my kiss hard to find fat, you know? I mean, yeah, it really, really, really is hard to find fat as much when you're in it. When you're in it to win it like you and I are like, you think about it? Like I'm always on a search for fat, you know. Like I used to be in a search
for low fat, which is stupid. But it did was, you know, so that that would be the one that I typically have Quality Fence. I'm there. The out there but it's kind of hard to like have that convenience fact. I mean like like beef suet for instance is great but most people don't have just pocketfuls of beef suet hanging out, you know? No. No, no. You're totally right. So yeah I totally agree. Awesome, man, awesome. What's always, pleasure? Chatting with you, brother.
I'm excited to see it. Key dokkan. I'm excited to get this new meter and give it a whirl. And I'm going to be doing a ton of experimentation for my next prep in a few months. Well, depending on when I start my prayer, but I'm going to be documenting all of this. And I'll use the Bisons M like throughout the entire entirety of it. So I'm curious to gather that data and kind of see what it's showing. All right, cool, cool. In any your listeners, by the
way they they do the discount. These set up a couple years ago. So is Quito Savage 20, if they want to get 20 bucks off method, even know how to code. So awesome. There you go. Kito Savage, 20, awesome brother. Will definitely keep in touch me. If there's ever anything I can do for you, just let me know. All right, cool? See you man. All right, take care.