Well, hello ladies and gents, Robert Sykes, Keto savage.com. Today I've got special guest Mauro Stara on the line. He is the founder and CEO of Six Pack CEO. He is a coach and we dive into all things coaching related. We talk about nutrition, we talk about macros, micros, we talk about blood work, we talk about training modalities, talk about all kinds of things. Talk about some of the the common denominators we see in different client pools that we
work with. He talks about some of the pitfalls, some of the the pros, the cons, the things that he's found to work exceedingly well and things that have not worked well amongst his client pool. And I thoroughly enjoy the conversation. I always like bringing on other coaches to the podcast, picking their brain, figuring out what works, what doesn't work, and just finding common ground. So thoroughly enjoy the conversation. I've got no doubt that you will take something from this.
Stop further, delay, sit back, relax. Enjoy the podcast with Mauro and we are live tomorrow. How are you, brother? Very good. Thank you. How about yourself, Robert? I'm good, man. I'm excited to be chatting with you. I always like talking with coaches, other coaches kind of see what their, their methodologies are, what their, you know, hiccups are what's working for them, what's not working for them. So you've been coaching people for for how long now?
I started in August 2015, so you could say in two months it's gonna be nine years. Very cool, man, Very cool. And what got you into coaching to begin with? Like, do you kind of fall into it by accident like a lot of coaches do, or is that something you knew you always wanted to do? It was a mix. So I, I started lifting at like 17 and once I had my personal transformation, I had people reach out like friends and you know, they brought their brother and sister.
I'm pretty sure you and many people were coaches know how that works. And then that's kind of how it took off the, the them asking me for advice and training programs and nutrition programs or, you know, macros, whatever that was. And I was doing that on the side for a very long time or for a while and I was working in banking full time in Switzerland. And as I had that on the side and the banking and building out another online business, I pretty much put myself out in the process.
And as I fixed it and I saw the opportunity to work with man just like me. And that's how we got a little bit more centered into not just what I was doing, but who I was helping. And here's where we are today. I love it, man. I love it. When you said that you had a transformation yourself at 17, what did that consist of? Like were you overweight to begin with or what did that look like? No, I was actually very, very skinny. So spaghetti arms and super, super weak skinny.
Like on windy days, you know, you would feel it. And I I put on a lot of weight. It wasn't all muscle. Some of it was fat, but I just noticed, hey, I'm bigger, I get respected more, people treat me differently, and overall I just felt better by myself. And that's where I really saw the power of you, your own physical transformation and how it impacts your you, you, how it impacts really how you perceive yourself, but also how you are perceived in the world.
No, totally, man. It, it's funny 'cause when people talk about transformations or, you know, getting healthy, they're usually referring to people that are overweight, obese, that they need to lose a lot of weight in order to get to healthy body fat. But like, I'm, I'm the same as you, man. I was 115 lbs when I started working out and I was super self-conscious, just really scrawny, had no, no confidence
at all. Like my last two years of high school, I literally never wore a short sleeve shirt because I didn't want anybody to see how scrawny my arms were. Like it was kind of pathetic. So there's like a whole other side of the equation there that most people don't even talk about. Oh, absolutely. And I think the the people are very skinny or even skinny fat.
They sometimes are underserved and get left behind in the sense of, well, everyone is so focused on weight loss and that part, that part of the equation that people who are skinny and they're like, well, you're fine anyways. Like, no, I'm also like, I'm on the other end of the spectrum that's ignored and underserved where I also want to be, yeah, I, I don't want to put on fat, but I, I want to put on size and get stronger. Totally, totally. So you, you were doing that at 17.
What, what was your like nutrition like when you were trying to put on weight? Like were you just eating everything inside or did you fall like a specific type of nutritional format? Like how did that look? Yeah, well, I I wish we had or I had the the knowledge and the scientific tools and research rules that we have today. Like I saw on one of your other podcast you had Eric Helms on.
So with the stuff he put out the the mass, excuse me, the mass, how you call it the mass subscription that he and I think it's Trexler and two other guys, I can't remember the name. They have X of mine, DNA, blood work. Like there's so much more. I wish I had that back then, but no, when I started out was just say eat a lot of protein and eat anything you can. Like even if you're not hungry, eat, eat, eat and just stop your face until you're full. And that got me gaining really. Really.
Quick Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, man. Like, I've, I've talked, I I love all of Eric's work. He's he's brilliant, Very, very monumental in the natural bodybuilding space for sure. But there's like just as there's so much information out there about how to lose weight, how to cut calories. As you said there, there's an underserved market when it comes to gaining weight and a lot of people just simply don't eat enough.
Obviously you want to eat enough of the right foods 'cause you're like your, your health depends on eating the right foods as well. But so many people struggle with just simply not eating enough, having a down regulated
metabolism. And there is some truth to the whole, you know, you have to almost force feed in an in an instant, you know, to kind of up regulate about pathways and to kind of breakthrough that plateau to gain weight because when you're 115 pounds, 120 lbs scrawny, like you just simply have to eat more food. No, I, I, I agree. It's and you know, I don't know if you felt the same, but for me, I can't remember what weight exactly was, but I think it was
like 1/1/18 1:20. So pretty similar to you. And I felt better when I was, I think I once, once I first arrived at like 151 sixty, even though my body composition was an ideal, like just being heavier, filling out shirts, it felt a lot better even though I had a little bit of fat versus being that skinny. Yeah, there's, there's like a, a benefit to having a healthy amount of body fat. And you know, as, as a bodybuilder for me, like everybody glorifies being super, super lean and there's
definitely a place for that. But like there's a, a yin Yang to the equation. Like you have to have a period where you're at a healthy body fat because there's so much benefit to be had in that too. Like you don't want to be overly fat obviously, but there should not be a negative connotation around gaining a healthy amount of body fat. No, not at all. So I'm, I'm absolutely on the
same page with you. And I think, you know, speaking like of Eric, without wanting to deviate too much here, but he, I listened to a lot of his stuff when he talked about people who came off prep, post prep and how there's that fear because you have that image that you're so shredded. And that post prep time is mentally so battling for a lot of people where they go, let's say from 6% body fat to 10, which is still fantastic and they feel fat. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a psychological.
It's a psychological ordeal, man. Like when you were lean and you put on body fat, you see your composition changing you. You get so excited about seeing the scale weight drop and the body fat fall off. But then when the inverse happens, it's like you have to totally switch your frame of thinking to embrace that and view it as a positive as well when that time comes.
But it's interesting because the same thing at one phase is considered a negative and then now you have to re vamp your thinking to embrace it as a positive. And there's definitely like a a shift that has to occur psychologically before it can healthfully happen physiologically. But it's so important that it does, in fact, happen. Absolutely agree, it's I would say it's much much more mental than it is physical depending on
someone's starting point. Like especially the the the more far off they are from their goal, the more it is mental than it is physical a lot of times. Yeah, no, I totally agree, Totally agree. So talk to me a little bit about your coaching practice. So what? What is the typical demographic of people you're working with? Most people we work with are men, typically 3555. They're they have anywhere from 20 to 50 lbs to lose. They're already like eating healthy, meaning making overall
better food choices. They're working out just often overtraining. They work with trainers before, So they had like a personal trainer at the gym, maybe a nutritionist. Some of them even had like a functional medicine doctor or practitioner and they, they saw good results, but, and some of them even got down to that six pack. That is like the number one outcome that the man we work with come to us about. But a lot of times they, they couldn't sustain it.
And it's because it was never, they never really had a system or a way to integrate it into their future life. So it's like, well, I can do this if I'm very aggressive with dieting and doing cardio every day. But they were never really in a spot where they said, hey, this is something I can sustain and I look forward to enjoy doing for the rest of my life. Gotcha. So kind of like the the quintessential dad bod who individual that was maybe athletic throughout high school,
potentially even college. Then life happens to them, their career gets the best of them, they've got kids potentially now they're just busy and taking, you know, efforts towards physical well-being aren't top of priority. Let themselves go just a bit and lose the the physical prowess that they had when they were younger. Absolutely yeah, this is spot on. A lot of them are ex athletes, high achievers, go gatherers, CEOs and they they many of them not all but many of them used to
be in shape. So they know what it looks like and what it feels like. But as they got older, as you touched on business, family and just work life responsibilities took over or put high demands on their schedule. What percentage of that demographic has stopped training altogether and they're basically coming to you with the hopes of starting that backup versus have maintained some form of physical training, like via resistance training that entire time?
Like is there a, you know, one percentage higher than the other? Are you asking from the guys we work with or in general? Yeah, like the guys who y'all work with are, are most of them, Like have they gone a period of time without any training whatsoever? They maintained some level of physical activity via resistance training throughout that span. I would say it's 3030 thirty. So 1/3 hasn't worked out in a very long time. Let's say very long time. 6 plus months to 12 months they haven't
worked out, haven't lifted. The other third is regular. Like this week they went once, then last week 02 weeks before 2 times. I'd say like one day one, one day a week, two days a week, one day a week, two weeks off. So they're like they have a gym membership, they go there or they work out at home, but it's not like very consistent for them to get the results they want. And the other third is consistent.
And a lot of times with the guys that are consistent, because they're so high achievers and so driven, they're over trained. So they're in the gym 5-6 days a week, brutal workouts, keto, fasting, CrossFit. Like they're just beating their body down and not recovering from it. And you can just see it in the blood work. Their testosterone is very low, cortisol is through the roof. They're under eating carbohydrates and that will be
that loss through there. Of those 3 demographics, which is generally the easier to get back on course? Well, the last one, right, because that the, I mean, I enjoy working with all of them, but for the last part, like the guys that they're over training, it's such an epiphany for them when. And then sometimes there's a fear when I say, hey, we're going to cut back and I can share more why I believe that's necessary. But we're going to cut back to like 3 workouts a week, maybe a
fourth one. And like you sure, like I'm going to lose all my muscles and all the progress. No, like trust the process. Here's why it works. And we'll go to three days a week and suddenly they feel better, they recover better, they start setting new PRS again. So the for those guys, the ROI is the biggest because they know exactly, OK, I'm saving 234 hours a week every single week and I'm getting better results in terms of how I look, how I feel, how I perform.
So it's, it's a no brainer and an immediate ROI there were for the others, the results obviously happen as well, but they will take longer to see. And sometimes I think if you haven't worked out five days a week and going down the tree and seeing better results, you don't appreciate the three day a week until you've seen the five or six day a week. Yeah, no, totally. That makes total sense to me.
I feel like, you know, if you've got object in motion, tend to stay in motion philosophy here, like if you are putting forth the effort on a consistent basis and you care about it, you know, with a few tweaks you can capitalize on that effort pretty
easily. Whereas if you don't have a consistent routine in motion at all, like your body would be very responsive to any new stimulus you provide it with, like resistance training, but you just got to build that habitual routine into place and that that oftentimes just takes
more mental work than not. Yeah, as as the saying goes, it's easier to get someone from 1:00 to 10:00 than from zero to 1. So someone that is already working out, making some tweaking adjustments, as you said, will be much more immediate than someone who hasn't been working out. Well. They have to learn, depending on their level of skill set, they have to learn a lot of new exercises and work on the mind muscle connection, their form, the optimal recovery, and you
know, many other things there. Plus the whole habit of showing up, like showing up regularly at the gym versus the other guys already showing up, like, hey, let's just switch the routine that you're doing or adjust that routine that you're doing and watch what happens. Totally. I, I want to pick your brain on the concept of overtraining because I get asked this a lot as well. And I'm of the opinion that it's honestly relatively hard to overtrain. Like it's not as easy as people.
It's, it's pretty easy for people to undertrain. Like you often times go to the gym and you don't see people operating with enough intensity. They're taking, you know, 10 minutes between sets, they're on their phone between sets. That's it's much easier to under train than it is to over train.
However, in the context of people that are those type A personalities, you know, really driven, very busy, have a business, have family, whatever the case may be, they're often times not eating enough food and not sleeping enough. And in that context, in that context, it can be much easier to over train. But if someone is consuming adequate nutrition and getting adequate rest, it's it's relatively hard to over train if those criteria are met.
The problem is most people aren't meeting that criteria. Yeah, I agree with what you said. Like we there's this study that was published a while ago. I can't remember from where and from when I can look it up after the call, but they, these were elite athletes, a group of trained men and they put them on, they, they were lifting five days a week. I can't remember what the routine was. And they were in a deficit. And they're pretty high volume, high intensity workouts.
And their testosterone dropped. I think it was 4550%. I I have to look up the exact numbers, but those are guys in their 20s with good recovery, no kids, no stress from work, and the only thing they do is train and eat and recover right where you have a guy that's 4550, sleeps 5 hours a night, and granted those five hours are not great. His testosterone is already lower, part of it from aging, part of it from poor lifestyle choices over the last one to
maybe 3 decades. And you add on top of that that his nutrition is not optimal. So pre workout, inter workout, post workout, overall nutrition throughout the day, micronutrient status. And what do most people do? Like a lot of people are not a fan of tracking their food or tracking calories and macros. So. They will go. It's much easier for them to think like oh keto good. I can eat protein and carbs. I don't have to add protein and fats.
I don't have to eat carbs and count carbs so to say. So it just makes it easier for them or fasting like OK cool, I'm going to skip breakfast. So they do keto or fasting or a mix of the two together and they're just not fueling their body properly to the degree they they should for the amount of exercise or activity they do and maybe even a different nutritional model or diet that they follow. And that's where they will be under recovered.
And as a consequence of that overtraining, plus as we touched on, most people want to lose weight. If we look at the demographic in the US, but also the guys that I work with, most people are not like you and IA 115 lbs to begin with, rather on the other side of the spectrum. And what I found is when you earn a caloric deficit and you're training even four days a week, some, some guys do well with that, but others not so well. It just jacks up your appetite so hard.
So, yeah, so, so hard and so high that it's very, very easy to then also agreed. And this will lead us to the problem that you were moving in circles all the time and not progressing. And So what a lot of high, high achievers then do is they will train even more. And so, OK, let me start doing card in the morning because I'm not dropping that way. And they just add more and more and more and more where they don't realize, hey, I'm not recovering from these sessions there.
Yeah, no, I I totally agree, man. I think I think a lot of people are under consuming nutrition like that's honestly probably the majority of my client pool like they have been chronically under fed. You see this a lot in females as well, but but men too they they under eat, therefore their metabolisms down regulated. Their performance in the gym starts to suffer or hasn't
suffered for a while. And then they don't really have much caloric one way left to taper from because they've been eating far too little for far too long. And they honestly people just don't have any. They don't have any truth to what their actual consumption is. Like you touched on tracking intake and a lot of people are hesitant to do that.
And I'm not suggesting people become a slave to tracking their food, but I think anybody would benefit from having periods of time in which they do so they can just have that that tool at their disposal. Because I mean, people easily overeat assuming they're not eating as much as they are. And the same is true in the opposite in the spectrum. They easily under eat assuming they're eating more than they
are. And the only way to really know with any degree of certainty is to actually track it for a time and see how their body responds in at a given intake. Absolutely, and the time people spend on toilet, they could just track their food there. Plus one really big value that tracking gives us is once you track you, you see the direct
impact of that food. And if you track it before you eat it, you insert future based logic, which means it will have you reconsider if you want to spend so many calories for that particular food where if you just eat it, you never know what was in there and what was the impact of that. And the tracking just brings much more awareness.
And a lot of the guys in our program when they first started, they initially don't really enjoy doing it, but after a while they say, man, thank you so much. Like I'm, I'm so happy that I'm now seeing and I have the awareness and I was massively overeating prior to that or massively under eating on protein or carbs, whatever that was. And now I see the impact that was having on my body. Yeah, totally agree. And I mean I'm sure you see this a lot too.
I mean, I'm in the the keto, low carb carnivore space. So I'm an advocate for removing the carbohydrates. But my frustration with a lot of people in that space is that they lean into this intuitive eating so much so that they throw all caution to the wind with consumption entirely. And they assume that you can consume proteins and fats at libitum and never track it and you'll reach your desired body
composition effortlessly. And that may be some the the case for some, but I mean, I can assure you that people in the low carb carnivore keto space can most definitely put on body fat by eating no carbohydrates. And I think the only way to be honest with oneself is to track that intake. Like when I'm in a prep, I mean, I'm, I'm eating the same foods whether I'm in prep or out of prep. I'm just simply manipulating the quantities of those foods.
But I would not know that to the degree that I do had I not tracked that. And I think tracking proactively instead of reactively like you mentioned is also key because people like, if they consume a meal and then retroactively try to track it afterwards and they're, they're giving a poor estimation at best. Like you, you ideally need to weigh out that food so that you can actually know what the true quantity is. And there's, there's always going to be some variability there.
I mean, there's going to be some fluctuations in fluid weight, whether you're cooking it raw or cooked or you know what the package weight is. But if you're consistently weighing it and measuring it and tracking it the same way, those those average out over time. And you can have a much clearer picture as to what your intake is, what your body responds to at a given intake, and then whether you need to titrate it up or down, or distribute the macros differently based off of
how your body's responding. Yeah, that's been my key to success as well. Like once you once you reach A level of maintenance, then you can just up or down regulate. So when I'm cutting, I don't need to track my food anymore. Granted I don't do a contest prep like you so it's different, but when otherwise I would but I don't need to track it.
I know OK if I do half of that bowl that I would have in the morning, or if I have two eggs instead of four eggs, or if I have one banana instead of 2 bananas, or if I have a filet mignon instead of or cereal instead of rib eye, then that can put me in a deficit right away. So because I've tracked for so long consistently, I've my brain scanned so many of those foods that they kind of eyeballs them very quickly and sees where they would fit in in my day based on my goals. Totally.
What, what I'm always curious is going to be highly individualized. So nobody listening to this should take it and try to apply it to themselves. But like, out of curiosity for you and your stats, what, what is your like general maintenance caloric intake versus, you know, when you're trying to be in a building phase versus a cutting phase? Like what does that look like for you personally? And how do you kind of
distribute those macros? So maintenance again depends on the level of activity I do. So right now I'm lifting four days a week for around 45 minutes and I walk around 8 to 10,000 steps a day and I'm currently maintaining surround 20 seven 2800 calories a day maintenance. When I'm balking, I usually go up to 3000 sometimes again
depends on the activity. I do 3300 and when I'm cutting it's going to be around 2 thousand 2200 calories plus minus deer, whether I want to go aggressive or not and and 2000 will be already aggressive for me in terms of time. My metabolism is very adaptive. I noticed when I overeat or I'm balking, then I fidget a lot and I start rocking my chair like just on this call. I had like a big meal before and I'm, I'm just bouncing back and forth. So my, my metabolism is very adaptive.
My tea tree is always very high naturally. And that's like those are the calories. As far as the macros go, I'm at again, it's not like 1:00 to 1:00 every single day and locked in, but usually workout days I like to go a little bit higher on carbs. So I'm around 303 fifty carbs there depending. Protein is going to be around 14150. I don't know. Well with very high protein I just feel very bloated and my digestion is off.
So sticking to like Max 1 preferably 08/09 grams of protein per 1 LB of lean mass has been better for me than 1 LB or anything beyond where research doesn't really. There's not really a lot of evidence for that. They are less evidence depending which studies you look at. And then the rest are is going to be fats on lifting days. We're not lifting days. I enjoy a keto breakfast. So maybe a little bit of carbs, but I really enjoy the like a keto breakfast. So steak and eggs with some ghee
or coconut oil. And the reason why is it keeps my brain very, yeah, my, my brain very stable. I'm hyper focused for work and I like to have like Tuesday, Thursdays, very creative work, very hyper focused. And the, the, the eggs also have a lot of coline, which helps with brain function and focus, especially if you have ADHD or let's say, can't help. Don't want to make specific claims here. And that's like a perfect breakfast for me. Some much more higher fat on
those days for lunch as well. And then a little bit of carbs later in the day on non lifting days because I do lift in the morning. And so my my dinner will will be my fuel for those morning workouts a lot of time. Yeah, I, I definitely agree with you there. I don't do the carbs obviously, but I think having the, the prior night's meal basically fuel the next day's morning. Workout is, is key. I used to try and slam a meal before working out and I would always train in the morning,
which just didn't make sense. I prefer training fast and now, but I'll have like a pretty hefty meal the night before. And a lot of people are advocates for not eating much prior, you know, several hours prior to bed. But honestly man, like I feel like I sleep much better if I have a relatively decent sized meal before, but especially if there's quite a bit of fat in it because it just puts me into more of a parasympathetic state and I feel like my sleep quality
is improved. Yeah, I've found for me, if I stop eating around three to four hours before bed, it's good. If I eat too close, my heart rate is up. And I don't feel that well, but if it's too far off, yes, I agree. Typically also cortisol can be higher and it will impact sleep quality there. I I do feel the best when when I have some eggs as well for dinner. They they do really, really well
for me for the coaline source. And that's, that's a lot of times like I like to mix it with a little bit of cheese sometimes if it's like a keto meal or very low carb or sometimes with some honey and cinnamon. And that's one of the go to meals there for me as well. Yeah, you can't ever go wrong with eggs, man. Like eggs are always my staple,
too. I've been doing this dish here lately where I'll cook some lamb chops in a cast iron skillet and I'll just crack like a dozen eggs in there with it as it's getting seared. And then I'll just put a lid on that cast iron and then the steam kind of finishes cooking off those eggs. And it's, it's been perfect. So super, super filling too. Like a lot of people, they'll, you know, try and incorporate more eggs. I, I certainly do when I'm in a prep, when I'm in a deficit.
And just simply the volume that you get from the eggs being cooked and the expanding nature that eggs had. Like I feel like that does wander from a society standpoint. Yeah, it's very, very filling food. A lot of micronutrients in there. So one of my top three top four foods in the diet for sure talk. To me about the training man, what are you doing with regards to structuring your exercise
program? So I know you're not trying to overdo it with the training frequency, you know, 3-4 days a week like you mentioned. Are you doing lower volume in the actual training session as well? So lower Rep counts, lower set numbers, just more intensity? Or how do you try and structure that? Yeah, I'm, I'm a really big fan of lower volume, higher
intensity. I just enjoyed more when I walk out of the gym and I feel I've done something versus high volume, low intensity where I know, hey, I could have done more. So my, the way I have it right now is I have two upper and two lower body days. And the way I've structured it is I cycle them every six to eight weeks and do specialization splits. So full credit here to Lyle McDonald.
I don't know if you know him. And he, he brought that concept to me a few years ago when I hit a wall and he said, hey, you're at the level where it will make sense to try specialization splits. And I have never looked back since then. So I picked a muscle group for the upper body and one for the lower body and overload those usually eight sets is my sweet spot is 7 to 8 sets for those one to two reps shy to failure, sometimes all the way to failure
and beyond that. So with my reps, drop sets, rest, pause, single arm negatives, whatever intensity technique I want to use here and the other muscle groups, I put them on maintenance. So 3:00 to 4:00, two to four sets there. And after that, like after six to eight weeks, I rotate it to the next muscle group that has a weakness. So I always look what's the weakest chain and let me overload and train that part there and then put the rest to maintain.
And so just the past 12 months I've been focusing a lot on back and shoulders together with quads because I've just neglected those for too long. I've, you know, when I started out, I, I was so focused on arms and chest and I was training the host muscle groups a little bit too much. But I've overlooked the, the shoulders and the back and I'm
just working on that. So a lot of mid back work, traps, upper traps, mid traps, shoulders especially like rear delts, lot of specialization work on that there. I typically do a warm up set to two warm up sets. So like leg press, I do 2 squats. If I do them, I, I don't do a lot of squats, but if I do them as well to the others, typically one warm up set and like 50% of the initial weight at about 11:50 reps. And after that I, if it's a compound movement, I usually do
5 to 8, six to eight reps. And if it's an isolation movement, I do anywhere from 10:00 to 12:10 to 15. But it's not black and white. There are certain muscle groups that I just prefer to go higher in reps, like a leg press because I had a hernia and it doesn't sit well or doesn't feel well when I go super heavy there. And deadlifts, I don't like to go too heavy on those as well. So it depends on the exercise, but generally that's like the
framework I use for myself. And you said when you're doing a specialization split and you have a target muscle group that you're trying to bring up an overload, you're doing eight sets per exercise session or per week for that given muscle group. No, that would be per per muscle group. Gotcha. OK. So per sorry, per session, so let's say train delts, it would be eight sets.
So it would be four sets of upright rows, 5 to 8 reps And well, if I do lateral raises, it's typically very high reps I found I respond better to those. So like anywhere from 20 to 25 reps. And then the other day I do lateral raises on the cable single arm and maybe another four sets of upright rows. So it will be 16 sets a week Max, typically a little bit lower. Well, now the question I'm sure that comes is that still low volume, probably not more moderate volume, but sorry.
Yeah, low, low volume, high intensity, more like moderate. But some muscle groups I need to pump up the volume more. For others I can do less. Like for my chest I can do like 6 a week and I will still grow. Where for my doubts they need a lot of work, a lot of volume till they start growing. Yeah, that makes sense. Man. I feel like this concept of junk volume has gained a lot of
popularity. And like people, they'll, they'll just do like an, an obnoxious amount of volume for a muscle group past the point at which it would respond well, Especially if you're doing like a bro split. In which case they're only targeting a muscle group like maybe once a week and they should be doing, you know, 6 plus exercises for biceps, for instance. But then they don't target that muscle group for another week. And I used to do the same thing. I'm guilty of that as well.
But I feel like if you're, especially if you're natural, like you're, you reach a point of diminishing returns, in which case the muscle's just totally incompletely fatigued. There's no more glycogen in that. You're not getting a pump anymore. You're not possibly, you know, pushing your capacity on that
from a weight standpoint. So it's better suited to just drop that overall total volume and then pick the most effective of those 6 plus exercises and do like two of them and actually push the intensity envelope much further. Yeah, I, I agree. I think the Bros split has gotten a little bit negative publicity over the years where it's like everyone is so focused on the frequency. And yeah, the studies do show that. But I, I still think there's, for some people, there's the
benefit of simplicity there. And I've, I've used the bro split for three years and I've seen good progress with that as well. And what I like is it gives you the focus on just one thing and then moving on. But I can obviously have it's it downsides there.
And to, to your point with the the junk volume, I I agree, But I think there always needs to be a pre frame to that conversation because some people get into lifting and then they start listening to people that say like, well, you don't need to do too much volume. And it always depends on the person. And that's why customization is so important because you you only get to the quality through
quantity. So initially, yeah, you can do very low volume, but I think if you ramp it up a little bit, it will just give you more practice and more exposure to a lot of particular exercises. And as you get better and better and better on those, your mind muscle connection with those is going to be much at a much higher level. And therefore, you're going to get better results because your, your, your movement patterns have improved as well with that
exercise. You know, hey, if I take this angle with the lap, hold down, so feel it much more than with this angle. And that can only come from doing a lot of reps. So as you do more of those in the beginning, you I think there's a lot of benefit from it. Yeah, no, I totally, completely agree with that sentiment. I feel like, I feel like people, especially as it pertains to training, this is also true in
nutrition. But when it comes to training, there's so many different exercise programs, so many different exercise machines, so many different ways to do things. And people have tendency to overanalyze the approach. They want to get it perfectly dialed in and do what's best for them. And the truth of the matter is like if, especially if they're a new lifter, there's no way that they could possibly know what's
best for them at the end. So they just simply have to do a lots of different things and see what resonates, see what works, see what they recover from, see what you know lends itself to the most increase in strength and composition. And that just takes time. So like people just need to not overthink things, just simply do. And when you're new into training, like it's all going to be a new stimulus. So your body's going to respond favorably to pretty much everything.
It's it's pretty hard to mess up. Obviously if we're doing something stupid, then your technique suffers, you're going to risk injury. But apart from that, like you can pretty much see progress with a pretty free reign over how you're structuring things in the beginning. And I just don't want people to have this paralysis analysis fear that keeps them from doing anything. Absolutely agree.
Yeah, the also the more variety you have, the more you know, hey, this this is the exercise that I do really, really well with and I want to have as a base. And if we look right at the the people who have the best results and they're most consistent, they're not doing 50 different
exercises. They have a few key lifts that they've mustered and practiced so many times and they know, hey, the, the incline double press is better for me than the machine or the, you know, the the Barber version. And I'm going to stick with that. And that's where I've seen the best Rd. Not to say you can never change that, but I've I've just seen it times and times again where very, very experienced lifters, 10 plus years. They have those set of exercises
that they've done so many times. And again, that comes only from putting in the wraps and not being too shy to do maybe a little bit more. Especially initially, 100 percent, 100%. I know in looking at your website, you put a pretty good emphasis on, you know, getting, getting labs drawn, getting blood work dialed in. Talk to me a little bit about that. Like how does that look like for the people you work with?
Are they coming to you and they're noticing that they've got markers that are way out of whack and they're looking to improve that? Or are they just noticing that they're stuck and have plateaued and then we turn to blood work to try and get things more fine-tuned? It depends. It's rare that someone sends me their lab and say hey look at it, what is wrong. I don't think we're at that level of sophistication yet.
We're usually if someone has labs, they go to the doctor and or the doc orders labs when they don't feel well. But if we look at the last 3-4 years, people are more preventative in terms of their own health and they do get in more regular, like regular blood work, not in a reactive way in the sense of hey, I'm sick, what is going on? Rather, hey, I'm fine. But let me look at my labs to see what is going on here, where I'm at and what can I optimize.
And we, we get in labs and obviously you, you and I know that. And you, you don't need blood work to see results. Like anyone who says, oh, without blood work you will never see results for body composition or body recomposition, that's just BS. But I do believe that with blood work as a foundation, we can optimize those results and fine tune them and see, hey, what would make most sense for that person.
And that's why we got in a panel initially, we look at 95 biomarkers, organ function, vitamin status, hormones, and we see, hey, where's that person at? And we can look at it from a macro level and not macros, but macro level, big picture level in the sense of, OK, what patterns do we have here? Do we have patterns of metabolic adaptation? So very low testosterone, very high cortisol, low T3 thyroid hormone, insulin that may be very low SHPG, very high. That's like classic pattern
there. There's some others. Or do we have someone, let's say with the fatty liver, not non alcoholic fatty liver, where we can optimize their diet, let's say adding more choline to their diet to to reduce a little bit of that liver fat there, that visceral pad.
So it gives us a big picture status there, but also the, the on a micro level where we see each individual line like OK, vitamin D39 out of 10 guys, very low or a lot of guys also when they come in, they don't know that they're pre diabetic. They think, oh, everything is fine. I'm a little bit overweight. And then they, they, the labs come back and they say, oh, insulin resistance pre diabetic.
And typically again, studies show both work, but from my experience, the adherence is significantly higher for someone that's pre diabetic, let alone type 2. But let's say let's just say high glucose insulin resistance pre diabetic, their adherence is significantly higher on a lower
carb approach, right? Not always keto, but we've also used keto as a tool for some guys and they've responded better to it, or others on the other side of the spectrum responded better to a limit higher carb intake. And the labs allow us to see those insights and guide us. What would make most sense for that person to apply and adjust, let's say their macros or incorporate a little bit more of
these foods in their diet? What nutrient, nutrient deficiency deficiencies do they have and can we fix those with diet only, let's say vitamin A deficiency? OK, can you eat a little bit more beef liver, a little bit more eggs? And if that person doesn't want that, then there's always the option for the supplementation pack. But I'm, I'm a fan of lifestyle and diet first. Because if I give you 20 pills and you stop taking those and never changed your lifestyle,
then what happens? You go back to the old you. But if you started making those adjustments, then even if you stop taking supplements, you will still have the results long term. Yeah, no, I totally, totally agree with that sentiment for sure. What are some, I mean, with you having worked with so many guys over the years and, and getting this routine lab panel work done, what are some pretty common patterns that you're
seeing with people? Like are, are most people that you're working with generally, you know, having a elevated blood glucose at baseline? Like what? What are just some common common denominators you're experiencing? Sorry, just to clarify, are you saying some of the causes for the elevation in glucose or some of the patterns that I've seen across the board? More so the patterns across the board, like just based off of your client pool, what are some of the the general pattern
recognitions that you're seeing? Yeah. Well, the metabolic adaptation is one, right. Like to be early in the conversation we talked about the three categories of people that come to me. And so that last category a little bit overtrained metabolically adapted, that would be one pattern there.
The high glucose is definitely very standard, like almost every single person has a little bit too high glucose there, whether it's their A1C levels, which or your blood sugar levels over the last 12 weeks or phosphate glucose, phosphate insulin, we have that there. Another pattern is a lot of times that goes untested, the light proteins. So cholesterol is fatty, it's sticky, it can't really swim
through blood. It has to go in the life of protein, which is kind of like a tennis ball that swims through bloodstream. And there's APOB, which is more lifestyle related risk factor, pretty high on the list there. But we also have lipoprotein A, which is a genetic risk factor. And once you see those, you see, hey, where are my genes AT and where's my lifestyle at? Do I need to pay more attention to that and how much more attention there?
That's something I've seen doesn't get a lot checked. Homocysteine, which is an amino acid and the byproduct of methylation, very rare checked as well and usually very elevated, can increase the risk of any cardiovascular event, potentially Alzheimer dementia. Risk of a stroke is higher with that and a lot of times it's just that people are missing out on some B vitamins or baking TMG, which again, you can get from diet like beef liver, some beets you will cover that beer
or it can be supplemented. Low testosterone is a very common one. But maybe one pattern that you know, I, I couldn't believe it initially. Like I was a little bit shocked and perplexed, but I've seen that over and over again. The guys in the program that are like 55 to 70 a lot of times have higher levels of testosterone than many guys in their 30s. What do you think the reason for that is? That's a great question. I've spoken to a lot of experts in the fields and doctors around that.
There's no like one answer that everyone gives you. It's more like a series of again, sub patterns and possible solutions or hypothesis there. But if if you look how our lifestyle was 50 years ago, we were a lot more outside than inside. It was a lot more white collar than sorry, a lot more blue collar than white collar. And the, the shift here that happened has had an impact on
our overall key levels. Processed foods, all the additives in foods and any, you know, any environmental toxins, plastics will have a role there as well. I don't think they're at the top of the list, but I do think they belong on the list. Sleep, stress. So not only one thing, but a accumulation of poor lifestyle choices, an environment that has impacted those hormones here from the very, very early age on were guys in their 60s and 70s,
like 40-50 years ago. They didn't have the amount of exposure to all those negative effects that a lot of us have today. Gotcha. So you, I would imagine the 30 year old now versus the 50 to 70 year old now their current lifestyle may look pretty similar, like probably pretty similar environment.
But since that older gentleman didn't have those confounding factors, you know, when he was younger, the compounding effect hasn't had near the time to, you know, manifest itself as it has in the 30 year old that was pretty much born into it. Yes, yeah, that's the way I see it. If we draw it out like let's say the guy that's dirty, he's been exposed from age 0 or one to 30. So that's just my own hypothesis. Whether that's true or not, we
will see. But let's say from age 1 to 30, he's had that exposure and that accumulation. So his T levels, testosterone levels never rise to let's say 1000 or 1200. They were, they went up to like maybe 500 and then at 30 started declining and with accumulation even more where the guy at let's say 60 or let's say 70 from age
1 to 20, he didn't have that. So he rised up let's say to 12 or 1500 naturally in terms of total T. And again, we can look at 3T and other metrics, but without getting into the weeds, let's say total T was 12115 hundred. So his decline is also happening, but he his peak was higher compared to the generation today. And I think that's the case. Both are on a decline that's normal, but one peak much higher than the other. Gotcha. So what is the?
And I I just think that would make mathematical sense as well. Were any other theory that I've seen numbers wise, I haven't seen it really add up. But again, that's just my hypothesis. It may be completely wrong, or it may be what's been happening there. No, that makes that makes intuitive sense to me. Like if the if the decline rate is similar but the peak is significantly different than that would make total sense.
So, So what does the 30 year old do that's been inundated with all the environmental toxins since the inception, basically conception like what what do they do to to bring that testosterone level higher? I mean, obviously you can, you know, improve the environmental factors, you can get more sleep, you can weight train, you can eat the right foods, you can remove all the the harmful cosmetics and you know, xenoestrogens and phytoestrogens and things like that.
But if you and you can't really change your upbringing when your body is most impacted by that peak level. So like, they're probably never going to experience that kind of peak naturally. It it depends on their starting point. So let's say someone's assassin levels when they come in a program. Total T400 free T is A10 and they're 50 lbs overweight, poor sleep, high stress. Like terrible situation, right?
They drop 50 lbs, sleep is improved, stress management is improved, diet quality is up, fixed any micronutrient deficiencies, resistance training, overall recovery is optimal. And they're using less senior Astrogans, as you said, or you know, let's say BPA clothes and so on. They've optimized everything in their control very, very doable to get to 7-8 hundred, maybe 900 naturally from that starting point. And 900 or like 7 to 900 is pretty solid in terms of total
key for someone that's natty. And let's say they started at 150 or 200. Well, they may get to like 45600 but there was still be the average below average and don't feel that great, right? So it depends where someone starts out and the reversing lifestyle deficiencies and any environmental causes will get them up to their natural peak. And then from there someone has to decide, hey, is that enough
for me? Do I feel great or do I still have low libido, low energy, brain fog, and many other symptoms that can occur with low testosterone? And if that's the case, then the conversation needs to be had with a medical provider around treatments for that, whether that's TRT or other solutions. Yeah, but all of that coming after the lifestyle interventions take place. Of course, Yeah, of course you know that there's.
I don't want to mention names, but there's a few telemedicine clinics that I've seen and you know, I've I've I've dealt with as well with clients we work with and day one you get it in the labs. Testosterone 350. All right, let's put you in TRT. No comments to sleep workouts, diet like it's just just insane because that person, they may end up at 56700 and feel great and don't need it.
And you just put someone on a lifetime medication because it's not something can take and then you get off. Usually you take it and you have to stay on forever. And yeah, it's it's out of integrity there. So absolutely lifestyle should always come first. And if all the lifestyle options are maxed out, then the combo opens up there. Same goes for Thyrid, right?
If someone is hypothyrid so low T4, low T3 hormones and they've done everything in their power to optimize those and that it's not working again, then the combo can be had. But I think a lot of people just see those low numbers and think, oh that's how I am and now I need a quick fix where it's normal that. You're on the lower end for a lot of these things or on the higher end for other things because of your lifestyle, right?
Yeah, I mean, I think people just don't realize how big an impact lifestyle and diet has on these numbers. Like, I feel like so many people just assume that, yeah, it may have a an incremental benefit, but you you pretty much have to get on medication to really see any monumental change.
But truth be told, I mean, whether or not you sleep, I mean you could literally go get a testosterone test, you know, one day and the next day cut your sleep in half, then get that same test and you're you'll see a pretty drastic decrease in testosterone like these. These lifestyle factors have a massive impact. A. 100% yeah, I remember mine.
I, I did a test like it was one half two years ago it was total T was 680 and free T was 1718 and 90 days later I did a retest for full 1011. My sleep was very, very bad during those last two months prior to the test and my total T dropped to a was 420 yeah 420 and my free T was 11. So if, if you just look at that, you would say like, well, based on your lifestyle and your age, like you're lean and so on, well, sleep has a massive impact on your T levels.
I think there's one study that showed just one night of less than five hours, five hours or less than five hours of sleep will lower your testosterone levels by 10 or 11% just one night. Yeah, it's, it's crazy, man. I, I did, I documented all of my blood work throughout this last prep that I did. And, and it's, I mean, your testosterone level is tightly correlated to the amount of body fat you have as well. Like it all kind of works in
unison. And when I got down to sub 4% body fat, I was also not sleeping very much. Like I was probably averaging 4 hours of sleep a night. I was training every day. Like I was just taxing the system on all fronts and my total testosterone at that point at the apex of the cut was 86 man, like crazy low. But I've tested it, you know, several times since then and
it's all returned. It's pretty much doubled every time I've tested it since bringing food back in and putting on a healthy degree of body fat. But like people that never test, they never track macros and never test their body composition. They don't know what their current body fat is. Like you have no, you're, you're just playing darts in the dark. Whereas if you actually track these metrics and they can be objective as to what it's telling you, I mean, you can
fine tune and finesse things. Again, everything truly dialed in, it just takes a little more effort. 100% I think a lot of people don't realize like when we we talked before about how the weight loss can have an impact on testosterone, but only to certain degree. Like once you typically get into the single digits of body fat, it twists and it goes down.
And I, I never really understood why, but it makes a lot of sense because the, the body has like 2, if you want to call it mechanisms or two ways to look at or, or assess reserves. And it's like, OK, you have little food coming in because you're cutting and cutting and cutting to lower body fat. So there's short term, the, the short term energy, which is your nutrition. How much food is available right now from what you're eating on a day-to-day basis is getting
less. So the short term energy is being compromised and then your body fat is the long term energy and that is getting less as well. So obviously your reproductive hormones are are not a priority for your body at this stage. So it will just lower, lower lower those T levels. Totally. This is honestly why I'm such an advocate for people taking ample time off in between fat loss phases, because everybody talks about, you know, how great it is to be lean.
And that is true to an extent for sure. But there's also so much benefit to be had in having a legitimate building phase, operating in a caloric surplus, putting on a healthy degree of body fat. And that never really gets
talked about. But if you look at it simply from a hormonal standpoint, like you have to give your body ample time to let your hormones recover and stabilize, your metabolism to recover and stabilize, like everything has to have that yin Yang to it and you can't just perpetually be in a cut. No, you, you, I used to make that mistake years ago where just cutting, cutting, clutting, clutting. And it can get addictive to some to some point in some degree. But you're absolutely right.
We want to cycle nutrition and periodize it and not just stay in one phase. Like if same for balking, right? If you're balking for too long, like your glucose may be too high at some point where if you implement mini cuts and periodize those as well, you'll have to benefit on that side as well. So having a cyclical approach or paradise approach to nutrition over the course of, let's say, 12 months makes a lot of sense. Yeah. No, totally agree, ma'am, Totally agree.
Well, what what's getting excited for the future, man, I know we're coming up on our hour mark here, but what what's getting excited for the business, for the coaching? What what are you working on at the moment? I'm working on a lot of systems for my team, so leading them, coaching them on their education on systems and really creating a team of elite coaches and focusing on making the program better. So that's, you know, our #1 core value as a company is client success.
We're the members success. Everything is tailored around that. And that's where a lot of the energy and attention goes into like, how can we make this easier, faster, better, simpler? How can we take off more decisions and work from the clients and just make the the product and the coaching better, better, better and better. And that's been my number one focus. I love it. I love it. And you're you're only working with males? Or is it females too to some extent?
Mainly men, we have a female program that we started just recently. So yeah, we like the brand and the marketing is around men. But a lot of the men as they see success, they want to have their spouse on board as well. And it makes sense. It's easier to, or it's easier to make those lifestyle choices when the most important person in your life is in alignment as well and supports you versus you have a different lifestyle than she has. A lot of times that doesn't work out long term.
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you there. The the more everybody's on the same on the same trajectory, the better it's going to be for everyone, for sure. Absolutely, yeah. We, we see a, a lot of guys as well, like they go for a morning walk or let's say they work out at home and the, their wife joins them for a walk.
And now instead of in the morning, just striving to through like a driveway, Starbucks or sitting on the couch or in the evening, they, they go for a walk together and their relationship improves, their health improves. So it can be that simple. Yeah, no, I love it, man. I love it. I love what you're putting out there. So where do people go to learn more about the systems, the program, the coaching? Where's the? Where's the main page for that?
Well, that would be 6 pack CEO, so six number six and then packceo.com. Or you can just find me on social media, Facebook, Instagram, just type in my name and I'll pop up there. Awesome, man. Well, I will definitely link out and make it easier for people to find you. Appreciate what you're doing, man. Like I said at the very beginning, I love talking to other coaches. I think, you know, each coach has their own approach to
things. It's going to resonate differently with different people. Rising Tide raises all ships and I just love coaches that are doing it for the right reasons and trying to bring people to a healthier, healthier lifestyle, man. So, so keep fighting the good fight. Yeah, we, we're, you know, when I started out as a coach, I thought I had a lot of, or more of a scarcity mindset in the sense of I cannot chat with the other coaches and maybe they'll
steal my clients. But first of all, not everyone will vibe with you. And secondly, there's more than enough for everyone I in the market. And everyone is unique in their own way, in their own skill sets. And you know, I, I really enjoyed this conversation and the, the collaboration here. No 100% man. I mean at least in this the states the the obesity epidemic is still trending upwards. So as far as I'm concerned, we need more and more coaches.
Exactly. Well awesome man, again I will link you out to everything, make the easy people to find you. There's everything I can do for you, man, You just let me know. Likewise, thank you very much for having me on, Robert. You bet. Take care, brother. You too.