Well, hello ladies and gents Robert Sykes keto Savage.com. And today I have special guest dr. Mike Mallen on the podcast, he's one of the brains behind Wild Health, which is a company that specialises in genetic testing, Epi genetic testing what those markers.
And what that information means for you and how your environmental factors and your day-to-day actions can dictate or at least influence which of those phenotypes get turned on and off and how they impact, not only you, but your children and their children and their children. We talked about where genetics have come from. How they've been influenced what the recent technology and science is allowing us to do where it's going. We dive deep into all things jeddak.
So without further Ado sit back relax and do the podcast. Get your pen and paper ready to take some notes. Here it is. Mike Mallen. And we are live, like, melon. How are you man? I'm good. I'm good Robert. Thanks Camille podcast. Hey, man, I'm excited to check with it, to be honest. I have very little background knowledge on you at all. Chris, Urban reset to me is a hey, man, just had Mike on the podcast. You gotta get them on there, some.
Okay, let's sign me up and I did some, some preliminary groundwork and looks like you're in the ultrasound business, but you've also got a whole separate website. Unrelated to ultrasounds. I kind of just want to dive in and get some some magnet on you, man. So I can have someone intelligent questions to ask you so far away, my give you some backstory on you. Yeah. Give you spec story ultrasounds kind of thing of the past these days, but I did did have a
previous career in ultrasounds. I'm a physician.
I went to medical school in South Carolina and then did my residency in emergency medicine and during during emergency Medicine Residency. And when I practice has an attending at an academic center for a long time, did a bunch of research and Ultrasound back then but but I got kind of tired of it and by tired of it, I mean, I mean I got tired of the standard Health Care system as as we all know it to be frustrated about the fact that so many people were coming to
see me in the emergency department, you know, with these like terrible diseases, you know, in stage diabetes, cardiovascular disease. Things that could totally be prevented if, if somebody were taking better care of them and showing them showing them away to live a healthier life.
You know, these are people that have just made the wrong decisions and, you know, probably as because they have been well educated and they haven't had anybody to to act on their behalf to help them with behavior change. So, you know, somewhere around, I don't know six years ago. I got sort of disgruntled with standard Health Care system.
I moved from academics to to private emergency medicine which one any better is the same thing and had kind of my own, my own personal Journey Epiphany around this idea of precision medicine. So I was struggling with with elevated cholesterol. Bubbles and trying a few different diets and things that were working out for my friends. You know, most specifically, my co-founder, Matt, he and I were kind of working through this together. We're all we want residency
together. We've been friends for a long time but doctors and, you know, always kind of liked, you know, doing these these interval and experiments on ourselves. And around that time we were both trying this diet and it was partially just to see if my cholesterol will get better with it and it got so much worse. This is this is a diet that, you know, people are people are using to treat cholesterol.
Overall, we were like, what's going on and he was on this diet to and you know, he'd always had good cholesterol and his day even budge. So mine went from like worst of like horrendous and his went from like normal to normal and we're very similar dudes. You know, I exercise a lot eat, well, take care of ourselves all that stuff.
And so this sort of like, aha moment, you know, like happened for us when we got our genetics tested and realize that my genetics for completely different than his. And then those are sort of realization that like, hey, if I'd known this stuff beforehand, I would have had to go through even As in a blind experiment in really to figure this out, like I would have known this time. It's not going to work for you.
I could do something else. So that was that was when we sort of realized that Precision medicine has this this opportunity to, to, sort of shortcut a path to, to the right way to eat the right way to exercise. The right way to care for yourself without having to guess, which is what the Health Care system does not either treats everybody exactly the same or guesses, and then, and then a test to see if it was right or not. So, so that's sort of what brought us to Wild health.
Earth, which is the company that we found in about four years ago, which is a Precision medicine company that uses genetics and Laboratory Testing to really dive deep. And give people give people these, these lifestyle plans, that they can live by, that's going to make them as healthy as they possibly can be without having to guess. I thought about it. I feel like the the genetic testing genre, has started to gain a lot of momentum.
I think for good reason, I think it's super fast and it's that this dive deep into that. But before we do, you got to let me know, man. What that we're both. You try. Round that worked terribly for you and didn't seem to make a difference for him. So, it's perfect. Perfect time. It was Kita. So he do did not work for me at whatsoever. So not only did I get, you know, not only my, you know, quote, unquote hyper, responder in the sense of you know I make a ton of extra cholesterol.
The thing that was really concerning that my infant inflammatory markers just skyrocketed. I mean my might rigs were off the chart. My CRP was off the chart, I might hemoglobin A1c jumped like literally everything. The wrong direction and I probably could have done a better job at my approach to Quito. But you know this was back before we realized all that stuff and then he has pretty much stayed keto since then, whereas I've kind of messed around between a tutor few different diets.
I ended up on kind of like a high fat, low carb version of the diet that treats me really well but not quite in ketosis on a regular basis Gadget and you have like a familial hypercholesterolemia, do I do? Yeah, I got some. I've got some familial hypercholesterolemia. You know, my mind. Cholesterol is I think it was above 400, but I was on the diet. It was great because there's so much controversy. Just ran that to like like what is quote, unquote, bad
cholesterol levels. Now, I mean like, they're like room on the clock back, 20 years and it seemed to be a pretty, you know, black and white. Okay, this is a good window. This is a bad window but now there seems to be a lot of question brought to the Forefront of, you know, what really is a good or bad cholesterol? Yeah, yeah I think it's a good question and my response to it
is it's bad. All when it is in Company by inflammation and and metabolic metabolic disease because you don't have atherosclerosis without a combination of cholesterol inflammation. And and in time basically, so there's going to end some dysfunction of the vascular tree. So those things are what causes atherosclerosis and cause cardiovascular disease. So one of them of themselves is usually not a problem. Now, I do think, you know, the data on people with a H,
familial hypercholesterolemia. When you're talking about walking around with the LDL cholesterol, like, 350. That's I'm not, I've never seen any literature to suggest that's ever good for you. So I think there's, there's definitely a none higher end of cholesterol, that's definitely a problem but I do think we're throwing medication at people at probably, you know, way too low cholesterol levels.
Like the idea that LDL cholesterol of 120 is going to kill you without any evidence of cardiovascular disease or other risk. Factors is pretty ridiculous in my mind. Yeah, I agree. I'm Only not a doctor, I don't want to play on the internet, but I've always looked at the lens of, if my, if my LDL is, you know, within reason, like not 400-plus and might rigs are really, really low. I think my treasure like 36 or something. Right now, last time I checked and my HDL is always really high.
I've always felt pretty solid about my numbers. Like, even if even though my LDL is quote unquote, in the high range, like, based off the other factors, I don't feel like I'm at risk. Yeah, yeah. So what I would do in that in that situation, you know, for say, for example, if we were You're my patient and we were, we were talking about your LDL numbers and let's say your LDL. Number was like 200 or something, that will give a kind of like a moderately High number there.
You know, that's that's considered high and I think any physician would say, like you need to be on a Statin and in your case, you know, knowing your Trig's were low, your otherwise, healthy your, you know, your diets, good. I'd be looking at things like, what's your metabolic markers? Look like, what's your hemoglobin A1c? What's your fasting, insulin? What's your fasting glucose?
You know? And then I'd also look at some inflammatory markers like your CR p and Another one, I like called LP pi/2, which looks at inflammation inside the actual, like the wall of the artery itself. And those things, help me understand what's the likelihood of that cholesterol is going to get into the arterial wall and calls atherosclerosis. If your CRPS lawyer inflammatory markers were low, you get no metabolic disease. You know, the LDL is probably not too much of a problem.
So then we go and we look at Art, what's your family history? A big family, history of heart disease if so then you know maybe we're going to be more aggressive about that LDL. Maybe we're going to try to get it down or if you have known cardiovascular disease. So You know, one thing, I'm doing all my patients in a much younger. Age is getting CT scans. In the coronary arteries to really, or calcium scores to really understand.
Does this person have evidence of cardiovascular disease because that will help tell you, whether you need to do something about it, or not? I mean, if you got no cardiovascular disease, there's no plaque buildup in your artery whatsoever. You're 50 years old and your ldls 200. I don't think I care too much Theory, ldls 200, but if you do have black development, that proves to me, that that LDL is get making its way for whatever reason into your artery walls and causing plaque.
And we need to do About it. And usually that's fixing metabolic disease, fixing inflammation. But then also, you know, focusing on the fact that you don't want to live, it LDL levels. Yeah, totally greedy. There's a lot of people. It seems that pretty much just go and get a CAT scan and it for that showing zero they don't even worry about it at all. Like is that a little bit of an oversimplification little bit a
little bit? Yeah so one issue with the CAC scan, so coronary arterial calcium scan is that it only shows calcified plaque. So the real dangerous plaque, the stuff that causes widow-makers, right? It is actually the soft black soft. Black will rupture outside of that soft plaque. And then it goes, gets into the vessel wall and gets into the vessel after ruptures goes Downstream, where it causes an occlusion, and that's what we call heart attack.
Basically. So it's actually the soft black that concerns us and you do get people who have, you know, have soft plaque without any calcified plaque. Now it's not everybody. It's, you know, like most people, you know, 85% of people who have a coronary calcium score of zero, don't have any substantial plaque but there's about 15 percent of people. That do have substantial soft plaque that could potentially rupture. So it's, it's a, it's the right trajectory, but it's not
perfect. So, what I've been doing instead is using coronary, CT scanning, so it's not just a calcium score where they take a quick picture. This is actually looking at the arteries themselves and using, you know, different types of AI technology. They can basically tell you, like, you have this much soft black, this much, you know, medium plaque in this much, calcified plaque. So, it really gives us a better idea of whether this person is a
platformer or not. Actually, that makes a lot of sense. What's your idea on? I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dave Feldman's lean, mass hyper responder Theory, and you have any take on that, I mean, you know, it's interesting. I think that the idea that you may be producing cholesterol as a form of energy transfer throughout the body makes sense to some extent, it's certainly increased. And in patients, who are, you know, acutely going under stress.
So there's definitely a possibility. The place where, you know, I have to, like, take a, take a yield away from that lean mass. Hyper responder theory is the idea that in cholesterol doesn't matter anyway because LDL cholesterol is clearly a component of the development of plaque and there's there's, you know, a ton of research that shows that patients who have cardiovascular disease do better if they have lower LDL cholesterol levels. So there's there's clearly a relationship there.
So, that's the area where I have some. I have some difficulty. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm treating everybody. With elevated cholesterol or getting super concerned about it. It just means that there's a relationship and you got to pay attention to that and focus on those things that do potentially cause plaque down the road. Yeah, feel like that makes a ton
of sense. If you, like, if you view it through that lens, you're not taking this dogmatic approach and you just throw your hands up and say now it doesn't matter cuz I've liked a lot of people in the Kingdom space especially
do that. And I do think they have, you know, cause for concern in thinking that a lot of the standard protocols and Western medicines especially are not necessarily You know, applying to them to the extent that they were the general population is eating a standard American diet. I feel like the window is for, what is optimal with in LDL cholesterol, ranges is likely a bit skewed for people that are not typically healthy to begin with.
So I feel like a lot of people's frustration with the current recommendations of automatically, putting people on a Statin is warranted. But I also think that simply throwing your hands up and say, cholesterol doesn't matter at all. Don't even worry about it. Probably isn't the smartest approach either. I mean the truth is usually in the middle, right?
And you know the pendulum clearly swung too far to One Direction. In when we're basically putting statins in the water and given it to literally everyone. And, and then in response, a lot of people allowed pendulum to swing in the other direction too far. Where it's, you know, LDL doesn't matter. Cholesterol doesn't matter. You want more cholesterol in order to be healthier, you know, neither of those are true.
The new realities in the center and it's, and it's way more complicated than we want it to be. And I think that's the challenge for most people is that, you know, we want these simple answers. Like yes, no cholesterol. Good cholesterol, bad. But in reality, it's it really depends on the situation. It depends on whether it's patients.
Risk factors are as on. Their particular physiology reacts to that cholesterol, so it's always a little bit more complex and that's where that's where the art of medicine comes in. And that's why this stuff is so much fun. Totally agree. So, going back to genetics. You are recognizing that your LDL is not doing what you want to do. What was the Catalyst was? That was that some of the Catalyst and if it sells for testing genetics or like, what
was the aha moment there? Now the aha moment was the realization that like, with genetics, you can understand how people are going to respond to these environmental factors so and it goes beyond it goes. Beyond diet, right? It goes into exercise. It goes into, you know, sleep
and what type of sleep you need. And when you're going to sleep better and we as soon as we started going down the rabbit hole, we just realized that leaving this was almost like never-ending the amount of information that we could collect on people just by running their genetics.
So you know we started doing things like developing you know these exercise plans and these diet plans for people and you know giving the recommendations on specific micronutrients that they needed because of their genetics and then taking that and combining it with like a Deep laboratory panel so that you can test for micro nutrients and hormones and inflammatory markers and cardiovascular risk factors, and all this thing's really gave you this like just crazy in-depth amount of
knowledge as to how the person was going to respond, and what they needed more of, and they're in their life. When environmental factors they needed to avoid, it was just extremely powerful. Aha moment for. So, you know, for me, it was really around diet. It was understanding my own diet and how I'm going to respond to certain things format. My co-founder, he Was he was like, struggling with just feeling, you know, like he was under recovered all the time and having having trouble with his
regular exercise plan. And then we realized he had all these Snips around recovery where he needed more recovery than the average person. So he basically dialed back from, you know, working out five days a week to working out, 3 days a week and then voila, all the sudden, he started feeling amazing, you know, those two instances in ourselves and then multiple other instances and friends and family.
When we sort of realize the power of this, and how we needed to bring it to, Larger population people, I love it, I love it. I feel like with this rise in popularity of genetic testing. Lot of people going there going like a 23andMe done, they're taking that brawl genetic data uploading it to some third party platform and then just spits out some generic information. And I feel like a lot of people can see past that but some people take it as the word of God. Hadn't had a y'all.
Go about that differently because there's a lot. I've had Anthony Jan the podcast. We delve deep into genetics with that conversation and there's definitely like not all genetic testing companies are created Equal basically because there are certainly some many that are just trying to capitalize on ignorance around genetics and how the environmental factors can activate those Snips and make them on prominent. So, like, what is the workflow
look like for your company? Yeah, so you know, I if you if you pin me down made force me to give you an answer. I would tell you that genetics are almost worthless by themselves and I think I really do believe that they are only one piece of the puzzle. The more important part of the puzzle is how you are representing those genetics in your phenotype. And that, Is how your body acts actually like uses those those proteins and builds those proteins because Beyond genetics, there's also
epigenetics. So we all have the this list of genes in our in our DNA, that's our genetic code, right? But our cells don't actually produce all of those genes on a regular basis. They decide which ones to produce based on What's called the epigenome and that's sort of the way that the cell wraps the, the genome up inside the nucleus, and then as different parts of the genome were needed,
it will unravel those pieces. And then, You know, code those proteins, and then roll them back up, that's all epigenetic and which, which proteins actually get coded, is determined by the epigenome, which is determined by basically how you've lived your life, and how your parents, and your parents parents have lived their lives.
So your epigenome, whether you turn on Diabetes Snips or whether you turn on cardiovascular disease, Snips is determined by the lifestyle that you have lived up until now but and the lifestyle of your parents and your grandparents beforehand, right? So, So it gives a phenotype is the actual determination which genes get represented by the by the person. And that's best tested at this point, mostly by Labs, by labs in, like biomarkers, right?
So, you know, I look at you and you figure out what your, what, your body mass index is and, you know, your Vital Signs and then a bunch of Laboratory Testing to figure out if there's evidence of metabolic disease or inflammation or things like that, combining that with the genome, the realizing what the opportunity for improvement is that's where the true power is so. So we're very different than and, you know, your standard genetic company that's going to
give you a very broad report about your genome, we take your genome in run a, you know, a chip that we've created through through alumina. So it's our own proprietary chip. Looking at all the things that we think are important, and then combine, that with a large laboratory panel, and a large questionnaire, that we give background information from you and conversation. Because honestly, the way we're going to learn the most about our patients is by sitting down and talking to them.
So, every single of our patients talks for about an hour hour and a half, with a physician and health coach meet with, Coach beforehand and then we compile all that information after that and then bring that in together for to create this Health Report to to deliver them sort of the the ideal forward plan for how they're going to be as healthy as they possibly can, you know, reduce the risk of dementia cardiovascular disease, you feel
better optimize their health. That's so it's much more of a expansive process than you would get through a standard genome company. I feel like the the concept of genetics and the importance and significance. He is gaining a lot of momentum in the general population. By flick the general population is just incredibly blind to the epigenome and how their actual factors, not only impact their their own livelihood, but also that other kids and their kids
kids. You feel like that that awareness is growing in already feel like that's just kind of like the the missing, you know, leak. So to speak in which people are just so incredibly disconnected to. I feel like the only day, many people are hesitant to even dive into this because they just
think it's out of their control. Kind of like this ignorance is bliss mentality but when they recognize that, there are environmental factors actually turn on and off these, these phenotypes that's a lot more empowering, my opinion, the
totally. And I think the problem comes from this, like 1980s view of genetics, like we think about, you know, I think when most, when the average person thinks about genetics, they think about, oh, there's this single mutation that causes this disease, right? So it's it's this idea of deterministic genetics, which is basically means a single mutation. Ermine's a disease and a reality. You know that's all that's all old news.
We're not we're not even talking about like these deterministic gin jeans anymore. We're talking about things that are poly genomic. Meaning that thousands upon thousands of different genes. All have these little tiny effects that over time and in combination create this elevated risk of some disease process, right?
So it's moving away from single snip, single nucleotide polymorphism ideas to Polly genomic scoring and once you Is that it's really poly genomic that allows you to understand. Okay, so if f as I add all these things back up together, that's what increases my risk. And the risk isn't necessarily deterministic. It depends on how I live my
life. As to whether that, you know, two times increased risk is going to actually have an effect or not because we're never, you know, telling people you are going to have Alzheimer's or, you know, you're going to have
cardiovascular disease. I might be telling people, you are at increased risk of Alzheimer's, or you're at increased risk of cardiovascular disease, but here's what we're going to do. To compound that risk or to reduce that risk, and compound all the positive genetics that you have around this disease process as well. So it's not just looking at the - it's also looking at the positive, right? What are the things that I had
that? I can do the opportunities that I have in my, in my genome, to actually reduce the risk of this Dimension down the road? You know? I mean, a PO Ava is a popular one, right? So this is a gene that's associated with dementia and it's popular because a lot of people talk about how they don't want to know if they have it or not because there's this increased risk. When you Look at it. The risk isn't insane, right? It's like three times increased risk. If you have one, apoe4 gene,
right? It's a maybe a 10 to 15 times increased risk. If you have two of those apoe4 genes, but neither one of those are deterministic. There are people with those specific genes that don't develop dementia and the ones that don't develop dementia, are the ones that eat this diet and that exercise this much, and the don't smoke and that sleep eight hours a night and that, you know, they're the ones that have these lifestyle factors that are protective against developing dementia.
So I always ask my patients, why wouldn't you want to know? Why wouldn't you want to know what opportunity you have is to prevent or reduce the likelihood that you get this disease in the future just by making these lifestyle changes? So really, it comes down to better understanding risk. And then what Behavior change is going to lead to reduction in that risk? Yeah. 1000% man.
I mean I feel like that is just the most common sensible thing to do if. Like, that's very stoic thing to do like, take your environmental factors, then act accordingly as opposed to just turning a blind eye to it and assuming it doesn't matter because I feel like if you have information at your disposal, Puzzle. And then you can act accordingly and let that dictate your day-to-day, you know, environment and how you, how you go about, and what significance,
you place on sleep and diet and training, etc, etc. You're not only setting yourself up for success but that of your kids and their kids and their kids kids and that just that takes a much more responsible person than someone that just throws her hands up in the air and says I don't want to know. Yeah I love that. I love the fact that you brought the like you're being more responsible for your kids and
your kids kids to their. That's the that's a that this the card and keep in the back pocket. That you play if you really can't get the behavior changing one. Yeah. And it's pretty like I'm and I'm assuming it's just a simple saliva test. When I can take that saliva test, you have that genetic data. Do you have like a, like, you take that data from 23andMe? Or do you have like a original, like place to get that date in
the first place? Yeah, so we created our own chip so it's not too dissimilar from 23andMe and that it's using the same like type of Chip from alumina. But it's different in the sense that, you know, we're not looking at whether people like cilantro or not, or Or what their, what their ancestry looks like. That's not a ventures to us, we're focused on health, you know, we're Healthcare company. So so we've optimized our chip for, you know, focus on on Healthcare.
And some of that's, you know, chronic disease stuff some of its, you know, exercise and fitness some of its sleep-related. Some of its me owner behavioral. So it's it's all different stuff that we've we've pulled from from different areas and that mean it's all pulled from research, research articles, they're out there based on based on the human genome and then built this ship. So it's, it's, you know, It's a spit saliva test that people do.
They just basically spit into a tube mail it off when they sign up with us. They also you know, obviously get lab, work done, so we send them a requisition, they go to a local Quest or LabCorp and get get lab work done. And then they meet with health coach, fill out some online questionnaires, and then you, with their doctor, and their health coach Off to the Races. They're, they're, they're one of
our patients. And we're, we're, you know, changing things up and, you know, modifying their life and all kinds of fun stuff like that. I feel like the the ability for like a pattern And point to see these changes kind of unfold over time and working with more and more clientele. Like I'm assuming you're probably able to kind of guess based off of a certain you know, outward phenotype. What this person is likely going to be subjected to from a genetic and epigenetic
standpoint. But are you seeing a lot of really stark contrast with regard to just pattern recognition and having worked with so many people now, you know, I'm I would love to say that I'm seeing a lot of pattern recognition but I'm regularly surprised by how Different peoples genetics. Look compared to their phenotype, you know. Like you know, you look at somebody you think like I could look at their I could look at their based on this person right here.
I'm sure these genes are off to Pi FD owes. Maybe people are out front of people are gamma you know and it's never trust, never right? It's amazing. I mean it's sometimes but not very often. It's amazing. It's amazing.
How different the the phenotype can appear based on the epigenetic component of it. So and and and the reason either, That's important is because you know what I'm getting at is that your genetics make up a very very small proportion of your overall health in terms of what's important. What's truly important is is how you live your life and your actual lifestyle and sure there's some ways that you can optimize your lifestyle for your
genetics. But you know, 80% of the AV percent of the problem is, is General Health, you know, it's the pillars, its sleep, it's you know, healthy diet, it's exercise, you know, once you get off track. When genetics can be really helpful or once you're, once you're trying to get that last 15-20 percent, that's where genetics can be really helpful. But the basics are the basic,
you know. I mean if you can eat healthy and sleep bunch and exercise bunch and you know like you take care of yourself mentally and reduce your stress you know you're going to be generally healthy, you're going to be 80% healthier than the rest of the population. Now you want to get that other 20% and get to 100 shirts and X can be super helpful or if you've fallen off the train and you want to know how to most quickly get back on the wagon, then genetics. Super helpful, but the basics
are the basics. It's kind of the classic 80/20 analysis but I feel like you know, on that point if you have this on the Forefront you can certainly expedite the process of optimization which I feel like everybody would be, you know, inherently one thing to do. Yeah. And you can reduce mistakes, right? You can you can reduce those like, you know, I should I should try, you know, carnivores like oh hold on let's let's talk about it for a second.
Looks like you don't have these genes for carnivore, you know? Like I mean you can, you can really like you hammer in On those those those in of one studies that you wanted to do that may or may not make sense based on your genetics. Yeah. Now it comes diet, you know, like getting proper sleep, sun, exposure, training, all, that seemed to be pretty well, generally understood and
accepted. There seems to be so much controversy around nutrition, and you've got people in the carnivore campus saying, you know, only eat mean, you get people into vegan Camp saying only vegetables and there's obviously that blend in between, but I would think from a when you start looking at it from a Extend point from an epigenetic
standpoint. Like, they're probably, I mean, there are certain certainly going to be some individuality there for sure, but I would feel like it would be hard to say and that, you know, this this type of diet because I think they were all, we're all still human, were all the same species, so I can't imagine that would be too much controversy when you read, you start looking at it from a, from a biological standpoint and less. So from a psychological
standpoint. Yeah, I mean, so what we try to do is we look at, you know, we break it up into Macronutrients and micronutrients in terms of our nutrition portion of the report and the macronutrient portion of the port. We look at your tolerances in your intolerance is, right? And, you know, so we look at things, like how carb intolerant are you? How fat intolerant are you?
How protein intolerant are you, how saturated fat intolerant, are you, and by combining those things together, you can start to build these. You know, the ice. These ideas of what type of diet is going to work best for a person, right? And there are certainly people out there who Their genetics are just awesome and they can literally be on any diet they want to.
Like they could, they could go vegan and then switch over to carnivore and their their metabolism metabolism is such that they're going to be able to manage that. Now, they might struggle a little bit moving to Quito or something. For example, if they don't, if they don't have any metabolic, flexibility going into it. But, you know, for over some time, once they create that metabolic flexibility and that epigenetic change happens, then they'll be perfectly fine, right?
So their jeans are just perfect for it and then you've got people in the other end of spectrum. Right now, I've got people who super carbon tolerant, you know, and just like our Phenomenal on keto, they do, they do great on it. Like they've got energy. They have their Labs of beautiful, they've got zero information or their gut health improves like all the things go
right, for the right. And then I've got other people who, you know, are terrible in terms of fat tolerance and they do they do terrible in Quito, they don't have enough energy, they are inflammatory markers increase and then we move them over to a carb carb heavy diet and they feel great.
So there's certainly you know there are certainly a group of people that fit in the middle that really there's this opportunity to do whatever they But there are also people on other end of the spectrum, who really do benefit from having this knowledge and and, you know, almost giving them the permission to say like this diets, not for me, you know, like so many people like, you get, like, you get like, psychologically obsessed with a particular diet, right?
And then, you know, you don't want to give up on it because you feel like you're giving up on yourself but like, you know, their labs are correct are terrible. They you know, have any energy, you know and you tell them okay. It's okay. You know you can you can try something else. It's alright if you want to eat some carbs and like ah, thank you. Why? And they feel like they feel
amazing. Yeah. Well why do you think there's so much variability in how one feels and performs around nutrition? Like, this is just a result of, you know, millions of years of mutations. Or how is that, how do you think that all came to be? Yeah, you know, I think, I think human beings evolved in different environments, right? And you know, you look at the different environments around the world, some people evolved to eat carnivore right.
You know, I mean some people evolved to eat more keto, some people evolve more fasting, some people evolve with more Eating, you know, you get people, you know, evolving in northern Europe and of people evolving in the Pacific Islands, right? And those are two very different environments with very different foods, right? So because of that, they their epigenome, you know, has changed over time their Snips have, you know, evolved their single next, a polymorphisms have evolved.
And, you know, Evolution has happened in each one of those areas for small groups of the population. And then now you take the last, you know what 300 years and you mix it all together, you know. And you spit It out and we all look very similar or sometimes a little bit different but in under all of that we have this you know, this change in our genome that you know maybe maybe I've got more northern European, you know looks but more like Southern European diet Snips.
You know, this everything has been mixed up. So I think that those small, the small changes have just been, you know, thrown into the Melting Pot and have delivered us with this sort of like, inconsistency in the ideal diet for, for the Race. Yeah, that makes sense and all this is pretty like the Human Genome Project that was completed in what 2004's it, right? Yeah, I'm gonna make it in 2008. It was early 2000s. Yeah. Yeah.
Somewhere in that ballpark. So we haven't really been gathering this data for to too long in the grand scheme of our existence obviously, do you feel like I would imagine, you know, fast forward to clock another 300, 400 500 years from now, we'll be able to kind of see the trend line that we're taking as a species. I would imagine I'm out of know, maybe you can correct me. Here. But if you had to guess what you say, we're evolving or devolving right now. Getting better or worse?
That's a. That's a tough question. I depends on the depends on my mood in the day. Yeah, I feel like there's just there's been this massive influx of just noise in the whole equation and it's probably not doing us any favors. Yeah. You know I don't know how fast how fast and you know evolution is really occurring in front of our eyes. I mean I suspect you know, a lot of what we're seeing The human race is really epigenome related rather than rather than genetic D. Evolution.
You know, I think we're seeing we're seeing a predominance of diabetes. You know, epigenetic if you could be genomic, changes and obesity, epidemic changes and things like that. And I think that's going to that's going to probably that, you know what's interesting is that could cause evolution in a different direction with the genome itself, right? Because you know, we start, we start seeing these changes and people start dying younger
because of obesity or diabetes. And then maybe the genome, you know, starts to pick for specific Snips differently because of that those, so maybe it starts to pick your Evolution starts to pick for those Snips that increase the decrease, the likelihood of diabetes because epigenetics genetically were increasing it within our lifestyle, who knows? Maybe it's a it's an interesting question.
I do think that I think that as, you know, over the next 10 years we're going to see a reduction in interest in genetics in general and an increase in interest in epigenetics, you know, you're even getting some companies. Now, they're actually starting to read. The parts of the the epigenome for disease States. So you can, you know, there's a couple companies out there to Diagnostics as one of them that not, they don't just do a biological age with the epigenome, which is the common
practice. They actually look at specific cpg, sites for diabetes, for example, or for obesity, and tell you how turned on or turned off. Are these epigenomic sites, which is really interesting because now you can actually use that as a marker that you follow over time, right? So if You know, say, for example, I run your, I run your cpg sites for diabetes, then you've got, you know, four out of five pop up positive, right. Then we could enact some lifestyle change.
Give it six months, run that again and now see how we changed your epigenome in any way. Knowing that, you know, if we have then that's obviously positive. And then these lifestyle factors are working for us and if we have it, maybe we need to try some different lifestyle factors. Or, you know, maybe we were trying, you know, high fat low carb, and it didn't work. So maybe now we try intermittent fasting.
So it gives us a way. A to measure the influence that we're trying to have on the epigenome, what is crazy, what we're able to do now from a technological standpoint? I mean, I was watching something the other day and there was this couple that I believe the, the wife had some, she was a carrier for some type of disease and she wanted to ensure that their offspring did not carry it. That was not a carrier. So when they did the whole egg implantation process, they look
to see. You know, which of those you know, sperm cells were carrying that or I guess Switch her eggs were carrying that trait and then excluded all the ones that were and then did an implantation with one that did not. So, they're basically, you know, having all that. And that's, that's what that's something that's totally new to us. I mean, we would never been able to do that. Then we're basically playing God and that aspect I would imagine
basically. Yeah. I mean you've got dad and then combine that with you know some of the stuff that like David Sinclair is doing for example, where they're where they're literally, you know, changing the changing the epigenome in mice. Now by, you know, basically Injecting them with the virus. You know, in this it's getting kind of crazy, you know, I it
some point. What guess we're going to step in and side like you know, what is cool and what's not cool in terms of what were willing to do, you know, at this point, you know, I feel pretty comfortable just reading the data that's in front of us and, you know, manipulating things with lifestyle. But yeah, when you start talking about, like, injecting people with things and and and playing God, then things get a little question.
Yeah. At some point, there's going to have to be like, a code of ethics conversation in which case he like you people have to just sit down and come to grips with You know, what is, what is feasible? What is not like where do we draw that line? Otherwise, it's just the wild west all over and like anything goes and I feel like that is it's some point bound just lead to some type of implosion. I would imagine. Yeah, I would, I would imagine it, I would imagine it will.
I mean, luckily, we're in a space now. We're, you know, data's, pretty data's, pretty secure. You've got a lot of governmental regulations protecting your genetic data, which is, which is nice. You know, your insurance company can't get access to your, you know, your genetic data, for example, like I can't share, With other people, you know, there's, we have to meet all these HIPAA requirements and everything.
So there's a lot of protection there but you're right, there isn't a good understanding of, you know, as we move forward and start talking about manipulating genetics, where do we draw the line? That's going to be a question that Embraces going to talk about.
Do you think there's a lot of pushback from people that just simply don't want to have that information out there like a lot of people I feel are hesitant to get a genetic test in the first place because they just simply don't want to have that information out there to the public. Yeah, we hear some of that, you know. And I regularly We have to, like, inform our perspective clientele and, you know, how we manage things and where we don't
share their data with anybody. It's, you know, it's completely like d identified on our servers and as it transfers through in the mail system, it's also D identified. So, you know, it's not a, it's really a minimal concern or it should be a minimum concern to them. It's not being not being sold or given away or anything like that, but it's a concern for people. And, you know, I think it's reasonable.
You know, it's reasonable to hear concerned about that kind of data just like any data, you know, like your your Gmail password, you know, you need to be careful about all that stuff. So you know regularly informing people about our security processes and make sure they understand that we're secure as we can be. Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like I have not, I don't feel like there's a reason. Nobody has a reason to justifiable reason.
To want to clone me in the first place, I'm probably safe money to like fall back. It's funny. There's and, you know, it's such a dichotomy to because there's some people there. Super worried about this. And there's other people that are just like spitting in tubes and send it at 23andMe who, you know, is selling it to literally everybody. So you know, there's definitely like there's two ends of the spectrum there. Yeah. I feel like yeah I don't know.
I feel like just simply having that conversation with, you know, potential clients just informing them about what the the standard protocol is and being upfront with them. And transparent is best way to go because I do feel like what
we said in the beginning. Like if you have that information at your fingertips and you can really kind of, you know, sign step, one of the pitfalls and just when you can try any type of that, I think it's honestly Worthwhile, I got remember doing one of these generic test and it was saying that I would be totally inappropriate for a higher fat diet. I don't think they would sound like, you know, just higher fat in general. So I totally kind of, you know, put that off the deep end
because that's pretty much all. I didn't know, but I feel like any diet, any type of protocol is worth experimenting with, but if you can simply have that knowledge at your, fingertips is about what you're most likely predisposed to do well with. You can sidestep out of the pitfalls that come with just simply, you know, throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what
sticks. Yeah. I totally agree with you and I we do, you know, to say that we completely understand the human genome is just, you know, like, ridiculous. So, you know, we do take patients, who despite their, you know, genetic test. We end up trying them on things that they're, they're, you know, the results, their test would suggest that we shouldn't do.
And that's because, you know, we're we are aware of the fact that, you know, there is a significant amount of human genome that we don't truly understand and we don't really understand it but you headaches or how that plays a role as well. So there are definitely patients who do that. The one thing I will say is that The thing that they're always frustrated me about about the standard Healthcare System was the turnaround time on retesting
was ridiculous. Like, you know, when I was first working on my cholesterol levels and my doctor, I didn't want to go any meds. So I wanted to find the right diet or the right exercise routine or whatever. It was to get my cholesterol down. And I'm, you know, I'm trying these different things now to check it like every month, you know, he's like no, no, let's let's give it six months and my whoa, see, I'm not doing this diet for six months to find out that it didn't work.
You know, that's that's like Hundreds of my life potentially so you know, this doesn't make any sense. So, you know, one thing we've been trying, we've tried to do is is be really, really open to the idea of regular testing on our patients know to. If they're interested in early, is to make sure that they get the speed of feedback, they need to make change and make it quickly. I think, men in and of itself is worth its weight in gold. I mean, I don't go through doctors anymore.
If I want a blood test all order it online, then I'll go to like a Quest, Diagnostics inner, you know, pay for it. Schedule, a walk in and shoot. I'm Out of there in like 20 minutes, like, it's way more efficient, way more cost effective. I feel like, having any of that data should be, I mean, it's your own body. Like you should be able to just on a whim go and get whatever information you want. So the fact that you're incentivizing that I think was great.
Yeah, totally, I totally agree with you. I think that the idea that you have to go to a doctor to get a lab test is sort of ridiculous. Now I mean there's obviously an evangelist going to a doctor. They can help you interpret that lab test and you know help you if it's if it's abnormal but just getting itself that I feel like anybody should be able to
get that whenever they want. Now, when it comes to epigenetics, and how your lifestyle factors impacts, not only you, but your kid their kits, like three generations deep, right? Yeah, at least. So why is it the like, what, why is that? Like I feel started breaking apart the cells and looking at that and I can, you explain to the listeners. Why it is at least the three generations deep like how that looks from a, from a genetic standpoint.
Yes. To the epigenome transfers to The Offspring, like the genome does, right? So, you know when you The easiest way to think about it. As the epigenome is almost like another, another genome layer on top of the genome and and that that epigenome tells the cells which of these proteins to to produce, right? And when you when you have Offspring, not only do you transfer the the genetics that you got from your parents,
right? But also the epigenome that you got from your parents and the epigenome that you've manipulated before you've given it.
So when my wife and I had a child, I was my first child was, I was 32 years old and I transferred over my genetics and my epigenome from when I was 32 to my child, my wife transferred over her genetics and she transferred over the epigenome of her mom because her epigenome was established in the, in the eggs in her ovaries when she was in a infant inside of her mom. That's when the epigenome Establish. So our children have the epigenome of me at 32 and the
epigenome of my wife's mother. She was an infant inside of her so that's that's how that's how it gets transferred down the line. So you have this possibility and then of course, you know my epigenome came from, you know combination of my dad when he was whatever age he was when he when when when he had me and whatever my mom had me when she was when her eggs were developed. And then, you know, my epigenome changed over that time. I'm of my first, you know, 32 years.
So, you know, when I was a teenager and I was eating eating terrible and staying up all night, my Pacino was terrible, right? And then, in my twenties, when I started getting healthy, it got better. And when I was 32 is hopefully on the rise up, right? So that's how we transfer that that epigenome down to down to
our kids. And, and that has a huge impact as to how the genetics play out in our, in our daily life and what proteins actually get produced by the cells and, you know, your likelihood of disease and all those things. Love it. How long before ones like? Genetic data. And what all that means is going to be part of the Tinder profiles that when people are looking for matches your life, they're getting people with the right genetics. Select like your wife, for
instance. Like I'm assuming you probably weren't in grilling her on your first date. Ask what her genetics were like. So in case y'all wear to work out and it be a match that yells offspring would be better off for it. I don't, you know, I don't know. That's a really, really good question. I mean, like, in some ways I think that's ridiculous in other ways. There's some serious benefit
there, right? Like there's some super rare diseases that That, you know, if you know, they're ours on the recessive that if both the wife and the husband have, you know, when they, when they have a baby or, you know, whomever is having a baby, not happy wife and husband. But when the two parties get together and they have a baby, if they both have that autosomal, recessive State trade, then that child is going to have that disease process. So that's the, it's sort of, in some ways.
It's like, you know, it's kind of weird to think about that, but in other ways it's like, well, that would be super beneficial because now, you're not, you know, creating babies with these, these horrible diseases that obviously aren't going to are going to get the money. Life. Yeah. No, I agree. I think it's one of those ethics, ethics questions. I mean, I feel like the other day, like, if you love somebody, just figure out a way to make it
work. And then you just take, whatever comes but at the same time, like if you can kind of figure that on the front end, before y'all get to committed relationship, and probably save yourself a lot of Heartache later to. So it's just again, totally, where one's ideology fits on the Spectrum. Yeah. Luckily, this is way above my pay grade. This is for his fourth place for somewhere. Who's real good at, real good at ethics. I'm happy to pontificate on it, but I'm definitely not.
I'm definitely not the man to make the Answer. Now adjusting stuff for sure, man. Well, what's in the pipeline for you? What are you super excited about what he working on now, what's coming? So we're really focused, you know, I feel like we've got the, we got the science down, like we're really, really happy about the science.
We're always trying to grow, you know, we're we're actually, I guess we may ask that we have the science down, but now that I think about it, we're about to release this new sleep, chronotype report, which is going to be super cool because it uses thousands of different sleep Snips and gives people. A recommendation is to win. They should be, you know, Going to bed at night, and what time they should be getting up in the
morning? How much overall sleep, they need, what's their risk of insomnia and restless leg, and all this stuff. So, that's super cool. That's going to be coming out soon. So I'm excited about that one. But we're focused a lot on Behavior change now because really the Crux of the this whole project is to is to enact Behavior change and lifestyle change, right? I don't want to put people on
prescription medications. You know, I recently did we did a research article on our patient population over the last three years and something like less than 1% of them are actually got started. Tadhana prescription medication yet. We saw like, you know, 45 percent of our patients have a resolution in their inflammatory markers and like, 30% or resolution in their, in their lipid profile. So, you know, we're getting the, we're getting these changes but it's all coming from lifestyle,
not for prescriptions. We want to double down on that. So we're looking at, you know, I just created this health score. That uses a bunch of different laboratory, laboratory values and estimates overall. Overall risk comparing them against the rest of the population. Relation to give them a single score of their health, which we're going to be tracking over time, delivering to our patients, on their app and stuff like that.
So that'll be super cool. Kind of like, gamifying helpful little bit, you know, where you discoursed. Me2. And you're like, ah, 72 that's not good, that's a solid C. I need to work on that, you know. So you start doing some things and you focus in on the area's it tells you like why your scores down, you know why you need to do this this and that to get your score up and you know you do those things and your score goes up 76 and you watch it over time and you know, keep
track of your health. So I'm super excited about that. Getting into Into like, you know, gamification and the social aspect of Health. I think it's something that's really missing, you know, I think people people respond to people respond to like the culture of their environment and
they respond to other people. And there's something very like Stark and clinical about medicine right now where you know, you go into this quiet room and you talk to your doctor about problems and then you leave that room, you never tell anybody about it, right? Like why is it like that? Why can't it be? Why can't it be more like a crossfit gym where everybody goes? And just talks about stuff and has fun and you know, people commiserate and then they you know and they share share hints
and tips. Like that's that's my vision of Health in the future so figuring out a way to to gamify this a little bit. Take some of the intensity off of it and then also create some like, social interaction around it. I think is where I'd like to go. Now thing that makes offense, man, I feel like the current system as it sits is not great. I don't think anybody enjoys the current system except maybe big farm, they're probably a fan.
Yeah, I can't imagine they're going to be Too keen on what you're rolling out here. With people trying to be more empowered, to focus on environmental factors and improve their health through their own day-to-day actions though. Now, I can't I can't either. I mean the fact that the fact that we're getting outcomes that are better than you see with pharmaceutical interventions is you know just a testament to the fact that like we're just doing this wrong. Like we're to regularly.
Prescribing people pills when we should be prescribing them lifestyle change and helping them with that not just saying like you need to eat better. You need to exercise more, telling them how to do it. And then, Neptune in with the health coach, that can actually work actually work with them on a daily basis, to make sure they're actually an acting and acting this recommendations, like, that's that's what we
need. And then eventually, you know, maybe that health coaches less involved and maybe it's more the community that's helping them, you know, inactives those recommendations. So, yeah, we got to think about it differently. That's the, that's the main point. Yeah, totally. Totally agree. And when is all that getting rolled down some of that spice. So, the hell score just got rolled out to our patients right now. They don't even know what's they only know?
It's there. I'm gonna, we're gonna announce it here in a couple months. And, you know, the community stuff is that stuff that we're actively working on, but that's best probably be in the pipeline. A little ways that takes a lot of legal. Yeah. And a lot of a lot of technological advance. But before we can make all that happen, I do feel like there's a massive benefit, like, people people. I don't think it's good. That people are so secretive with everything.
Like, I totally respect people's privacy, but I'm telling you, if you've got any concern, whether it's, you know, how to get better career stability, I had to have a better relationship, how to have better health. Like, when you, when you It through the lens of it, being this quiet. Hush Hush thing that you're too embarrassed to talk about the likelihood that improves just becomes diminished.
Whereas, if you're freely speaking about it to people that are genuinely interested in improving your own health and well-being, you're much more likely to improve upon it from taking on people's advice and wisdom that have been there done that. And I've already figured out what works well, and could potentially work well for your own self totally. Now, I think there's a, there's a neurobehavioral benefit that to that as well, right?
And I think, you know, that's you ask me, what else I'm interested in the other area that I mentioned is Their behavioral health because I think there's a there's a stronger Mind Body Connection than I think most people in the field acknowledge, you know, I think everybody says sure there's a mind-body connection but, you know, I've seen Time Time After Time, Again of people who are stressed out, who have, you know, laboratory markers just like all over the place
there, inflammations high, all these things are problem, you know, maybe we handle some of that, but we mostly focus on the stress and get their stress down, get them near behaviourally in a better place. And then the next thing you realize is like, man, all these things got better like, They're like helping their stress, reduce their inflammation, helping their stress, you know, improve their lipid profile, improve their metabolic syndrome.
Like so much of our of our challenges in healthcare today are just Master behavioral issues so finding ways to focus on that. And I think Community is a huge part of that and developing a community for people to be a part of gives them that that that opportunity to improve their near Behavioral Health, which then down the line, improves their their ADI. Yeah, totally green. When it comes to quantifying measuring manipulating stress.
Like, do you have a specific proxy that you use to kind of gauge run, like you're using like an aura ring and looking at HRV and ready to score? Like how do you kind of make that tangible? Like, on a day-to-day basis for you? Yeah. So some of its objective and we do use, like subjective scoring systems for people, so that we can kind of measure their subjective evaluation of stress because I think that's important too, but objective data is great.
Right? So, you know, I love, I love HRV as As a marker stress, it's not perfect for for direct neurobehavioral stress because there's a certainly an overlap between emotional and physical stress and HR be like, you know, you go have a significantly hard at work out or something that your interview is going to plummet just like it would if, you know, give a big board presentation and you are super stressed. So you see on this, from both of them, so you have to keep that in mind.
But yeah, combination of objective, which with things like biomarkers. So you know, we regularly follow our patients or and mu cream. We are whoop data.
We actually have an app now that our patients connect with and it pulls biometric data from Apple health and pulls it into our app, which is super cool because now I can use that data that we collect on patients that biometric data to start, you know, creating a notification system for patients, reminding them that they need to be doing certain things that the physician is recommended where, you know, you can connect the dots between like lower HRV, recent exercise plan, you know
recent dietary change with reduction in calories and Put those three things together and say, hey, we're going too far in this direction now. We need to, you know, we need to reduce the exercise, we need to increase the calories, you know, you can start to really connect the dots between multiple things. So, love, love that data.
I think it's really useful to get a fuller phenotypic view of our patients, on a day-to-day basis because, you know, even if I'm doing Labs every month on you, which is, you know, ridiculously Contour regular compared to the standard Health Care System. It's nothing like daily. You know, if I can get daily data on my patients, that allows cause me to really interact daily change in their lives and and and help them make the changes that are necessary to
get better. You know, like one of my stick favorite sayings is, you know what gets measured, what does it say? What gets measured gets managed. I love it. I love it. Thank you to remember and it's so true you know like once you start measuring those things people actually start paying attention to them and I can pay attention to the more and actually make recommendations that are more meaningful to my patients and not you know a month old.
Yeah I agree and I feel like Having a way to bring all that data together is very, very important. I feel like a lot of people like they have an ordering, they have a loop strap, they have a smart scale and it's all they compartment compartmentalize it all, which is fine, but it's not really using all that to the full potential errors.
If you have a place to take all that, all that information, put it all together and kind of see how certain Trends come and go as a result of all the different levers. You're pulling simultaneously, you can have a much better picture of what your true health is like in the direction of trajectory or headed on. What was the name of that? Abby. I'm assuming that's for your client specifically. Yeah, it's wild Health. Yeah. You have to be a big client to
get access to the app. Unfortunately. Maybe one day. We'll we'll have it available to everybody but right now it's for our patients. Now the yeah. That's your what you're talking about. Is the Holy Grail. Basically. It's like, you know, it's all of my data in one place. It's my, it's my lifestyle data, it's my phenotypic data on a, you know, a monthly scale with my laboratory information. It might help score and then it's on a daily scale with my Biometrics and pulling that all
together. And then hand in hand, delivering that to your health coach. And Physician who were then you know, helping you go through all of it and making, you know, creating these recommendations for a better lifestyle. That's that's the, that's the magic. I love it, man. You're doing some super exciting stuff. I'm here on a Cutting Edge, for sure.
So I think I think what you're doing from an epigenetic standpoint is of Paramount importance and it's incredibly interesting and I feel like when you tie it all together and you make it, you know what's happening in your environment factors, what are you noticing on a day-to-day basis, what lab and working getting an order that telling you, if you're like that I bet just takes a much more measured approach and I feel like that is Is truly key. I mean so many people have blows
my mind. Honestly, with the technology we have today, how oblivious people are to what they have at their fingertips, like for me, you know, in the health and nutrition space. My biggest frustration is interacting with people that just simply don't know enough to even care or know where to start and like they can just make these simplest little tweaks and changes. It would drastically improve their health but they just feel
totally unempowered. They assume it's all because that's what their parents bless them with genetic. Why? And it could not be farther from the truth. So simply bringing that the people's, you know, Forefront of their mind I think is huge man. So keep doing exactly what you doing there.
Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. And you know I think there's a there's a big component of Education there to you know, mean actually teaching teaching patients why things are the way they are, why they're why their health is the way it is. And and so that they understand why they're making these changes in their lifestyle, why are these going to benefit them? Is super important as well. And something that I think is also lost in the standard Health Care system. I know like my own personal
Journey, you know I did. I I made all these changes because I learned about myself because I got obsessed with it and it takes it takes a level of like education and Obsession about about health in general. In order to really understand why you're going, why you're doing these things and then when you really understand them, you're much more willing to make a lifestyle. Change the make? Yeah. Honestly like that.
People want to have very you know short tangible wins in order to stay motivated for the Long Haul and I feel like you know someone's got to lose 50 pounds, it's going to be daunting but if someone can Look at their blood sugar via simple glucometer and then 48 hours later. See it again after they've made a couple of shifts in their diet and see that it's dropped 100 points like that, right. There's a power ring that gives them hope that, hey, something
they're doing is working, man. I love I love CGM. They see GM is like, the is, is the the like the poster child for Behavior change because it's so instantaneous. Right? You know, it's more instantaneous and really anything else. I mean even or ringing? Whoop, you're waiting. You know, for the next day, until you get to see your sleep score, right? So, it's always laid, right?
It's like, oh, that's Right. I shouldn't have had that second gear last night because now my now my sleep scores terrible with the CGM. It's like in your face, you know. It's like it's like oh you need some sugar here. Look at this. Yeah. Which I love. I love that CGM. I'm still waiting for the sea or the yeah, CCM come out. You know, continuous courtesan modern. That'd be interesting for sure. That would be super cool and an American, you know?
So, so I think it's out there to be honest, and, but it's not a courtesan monitor. Its HR view monitor, have you seen any of these devices that that real-time track your HR? I have not worked. What companies doing that couple of coins. So once called Leaf, I think it's l, IE F and the other one and the other one is hand. Oh, and these are like my, these are like my favorite, my
favorite new devices, for sure. Because what they do is they sit on your body, the leaf, at least it's on it's on your body on your chest and it measures your HRV in real time. And it'll actually give you buy a feedback. When your HR be drops, it'll vibrate on your chest when your HIV drops and remind you to breathe. And then if it drops to a A certain level, and you can train it to decide when to win to vibrate basically. But if you set it to a specific level, same HIV drops below 50.
I want you to vibrate, and then take me through a 5-minute breathing exercise or 30-second breathing exercise or whatever, and it will literally do that. As soon as your interview drops, it'll vibrate a couple times to let you know. It's about to do it and then it will go through the series of vibrations to remind you how to breathe, right? So then you go through this breathing exercise, and then your HRV, you know, skyrockets goes way back up.
So I use this for probably six. And it was one of the most influential that in CGM. Probably to most influential devices I've ever used in terms of behavior change because it taught me when in my life, my HRV drops and what it feels like when a Char views drop, you can actually feel your interview
drop. There's a sensation in your gut that you get when you're hrd goes below, its average range, and once you recognize that, then you can start in that creates its, you know, your own biofeedback. So now you're on your own biofeedback device, then you can take yourself through these different breathing exercises together, HIV backup. Super powerful stuff, really? Really interesting. And that's available to the general public, I think so. Yeah, it's last.
I checked that you can, you can get the Leaf device as a part of the general public. You can also get it covered by your insurance based on certain diagnosis if you want to have your physician to it. But it's affordable for what it's worth. Yeah, not I think that you
mentioned. I think I have seen one person wearing those ant like a biofeedback cops had no idea what it was, but then make sense, probably what it would look kind of like Iron, Man, walk around with my chest, you know, it. Pretty, they're pretty small. Now they're really you can wear them on your shirt and nobody.
Nobody knows what they are. But but yeah, like, like, for example, I realized that I breath hold when I, when I read meal, when I write emails, you know, I think email apnea is a really, really common thing that, you know, most people can can sort of like, you know, talk about that even realize what it is until you actually do it. And then, you know what I would notice is every time I get down, sit down, write an email, my HIV just plummeted, I mean to go from like 92 like 45 and I
learned how to breathe while Ryan Email. So just that small thing has changed my HIV and extremely regular basis, because I'm on email all the time. So really, really meaningful Behavior change. Do you D mouth tape when you sleep. Yes, I have tried it. Bothers, it drives me crazy. Yeah, I'm not too. I'm not too bad of a mouth breather so so it doesn't it's not too big of an issue for me but I've tried it a few times. Yeah. Feel like that that is like a super simple win that.
A lot of people don't even know about but like many, many people snore they have some mild form of sleep apnea. I feel like I'm just getting that. Now that I'm if you think about your spending, you know between 68 hours a night sleeping you got to get that down then or else you're just you know taking years off your life. Probably totally and you know, Breathe Right.
Strips can help a lot. I know a lot of people who've had a lot of benefit from those, you know, if you're just just opening up your nasal passageways will help reduce your likelihood of opening your mouth. Yeah, that's a good point. I love it, man. Where do people go to find out more about you and just dive into your world and easiest place is wild health.com from
there. You can get to podcast, we've got a podcast called wild Health, you can check it out if you want to see, if you want to be patient. We've also on Instagram and wild health MD, nice. I'm at the do this whole genetic panel with you. Then what the bring you back on the podcast then do like a deep dive into what those genetic markers mean real time on the podcast? Yeah let's do that. Sounds awesome. Awesome. And until then brother, you take care, pleasure chatting with
you. I learned a ton and I keep fighting the good fight, man. Thanks Robert, appreciate it, take care.