Well, hello ladies and gents. Robert Sykes, Keto, savage.com. And today I've got special guest Danny Conway on the line and we dive deep into the wonderful world of carnivore. She's been in the carnivore space for quite some time. She has totally turned her health around via a ketogenic carnivore diet. She has since worked with numerous clients in getting their health optimized.
We talk, we talk about hormone health, we talk about the importance of consuming enough total fuel, talk about macronutrient distributions, whether the high fat, the high protein, the combination of the two is the way to go. We talked about all kinds of things. So I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. I've got no doubt that you will take something from this without further delay, sit back, relax and enjoy the podcast with Danny Conway and we are live.
Danny, how are you today? I'm good, Robert. How are you? I'm doing wonderfully well. What what did we initially connect? Was it at Keto Con? Yeah, I was at Keto Con last year and I think we're, I'm looking forward to, we're just a couple months away from Hack Your Health, which is the new Keto Con this year. I know it's crazy. Like every time we do Keto Con, it's like, wow, that's good. And then the year before, we have to all meet up again. But it's snuck up on us this time.
I know time sure flies. It does. It does. So you are a mover and shaker in the carnivore keto space, especially as it pertains to the female demographic health, hormonal health. I've I get a lot of questions from females that are wanting to adopt that diet and lifestyle, assuming that it wouldn't work the same for them as it would males. So I really want to peel the curtain back on all that talk about hormones, talk about what's worked well for you.
But I'd like to kind of get some back story on what got you on that path to begin with. Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, hormones and Women's Health are like my favorite topic. So we're good there, Nice. And for me, I was, you know, years ago in my 20s, I was 65 lbs overweight on a fat free diet, doing hours of cardio and eating chicken, brown rice and broccoli.
And I had tons of hormone and digestive issues and I was doing all the things that my, you know, personal trainer friends were telling me to do at that point in time that worked for other people and did not work for myself. I had blood work. Doctor told me it was normal. It was all in my head, you know, all of that kind of stuff and it just really sent me on a path looking for something different.
So this was back in like 2006, 2007, when, you know, keto and carnivore and even low carb really weren't, you know, even close to being as popular as they are now. So I just decided to try it because I had nothing else to lose. And the yo-yo dieting, the counting points, the 1200 calorie, this, all of that stuff just wasn't working for me. I had terrible food cravings, excessive hunger, and just the list went on. So that's when I just started to, you know, I did crave a lot
of fatty foods. I craved ice cream at the time, but I always say like there was no shortage of ice cream going on. But what I what my body was really needing was more nutrients and more nutrient dense foods. So I started eating more steak. I even started eating more cheese and dairy at that time and I slowly started to feel better and then, you know, started to lose weight as well and the craving started to subside and a lot of the hunger started to subside.
So that was really the beginning of my my journey. And then that sort of led into learning more about functional medicine. And once I had initially lost some weight, I did still have a lot of digestive issues and some other hormone symptoms. So that's where I started down the functional medicine path, really learning about, you know, actually finding the root cause and you know what happens when you find the root cause and rebalance that. Then all the symptoms tend to go away.
And then, you know, results and losing weight and body fat become more and more easy, so to speak, when things are more balanced throughout, you know, in the whole body. So that's kind of the short version of of where my journey started. I'm happy to answer questions on that, but that's kind of where everything started for me. I love it. I love it.
So when you were starting out with the traditional, you know, chicken, brown rice, broccoli kind of scenario, were you pretty active in training at that point as well? Yeah. So training for me at that point was like a lot of cardio. Like I would do like an hour, hour and a half of cardio during the week and then I would do like these two to three hour spin classes on the weekends.
I really wasn't lifting weights. I mean, I obviously knew about lifting weights, but I was like no cardio is, you know, that was the answer to the weight loss, you know, and that just wasn't
the case. And when you switched over to start incorporating more fats, more dairy, more things of that nature, were you tracking your caloric intake then and prior to then, so you kind of were holding things relatively constant from a calorie standpoint and then you started experiencing the weight loss or how did that shape up? So that's an interesting question because prior to that, I was definitely sort of tracking.
Like my tracking looked like I was tracking because I was trying to stay at 1200 calories or below 'cause that was basically like the number. I'm sure you've heard that a million times like 1200 calories is like the magic number where you lose weight. And then after that, as I started to add more nutrient dense foods and more steak and more, you know, dairy products, I don't remember at that point early on that I was doing as much tracking.
So I think some of my results came from, like the rebalancing of the cravings and eating foods that my body needed. Excuse me. And then subsequently later, I did start tracking again and sort of shifted my mindset from trying to track to eat as little as I could to basically function or survive, to eating, you know, tracking to meet my daily totals of protein and fat so that I actually would eat enough on a daily basis. So that's kind of how the evolution of tracking happened for me.
So you you may have in theory, been eating more food once you actually started getting things dialed in and feeling better. And because of the hormonal implications that you were dealing with prior to that, may have stalled some of your weight loss. And so you may have actually been losing or improving body composition with the addition of additional calories. Correct. So I do remember around about 20.
Let's see, let me think of it. It was around 20/14/2015 where I started started to really make that shift with the eating more. I think before that I was still trying to eat less and lose weight even though I was losing. I was eating nutrient dense foods or carnivore foods so to speak. But at that point that's where I really sort of bumped up the caloric intake and I do believe that I was under eating for what my body needed to make those changes.
And I see that in a lot of my women clients of the under eating. We start to get them eating more and then they are they actually start to lose weight and lose fat. Even though that's counterintuitive to what you know, calories and calories out, so to speak, you know tells us should be happening. Yeah, I I definitely want to dive into that because that I, I get questions on this topic all the time and there's there's extremes, there's a spectrum here and yet calories are
absolutely important. You got to make sure to optimize fat loss to, you know reduce your caloric intake if you're at a surplus, et cetera, et cetera. But I feel like that is in the context of a relatively healthy functioning metabolism and hormonal state to begin with. Like if you're chronically underweed eating, your metabolic weights can be so far depressed anyways that you're not absorbing the calories that you're properly, that you are consuming properly.
Your performance is hindered, like everything is just suboptimal. So it's always interesting for me to talk to to people, females especially because that that theory brings, you know, runs rampant in that demographic of just eat less, eat less, eat less. So do you have any idea what you're eating now on average?
Yes, I probably at this point where I am now, I am in the 2000 to 2300 calorie average and I am the leanest and healthiest and best sleep and best energy all the things at this point than I think I ever have been and I'm 47 now and people would say that's unheard of at this age. I love it. I love it. I I like to see all my female clients being able to healthy healthily maintain a good solid composition north of 2000 calories.
I think there's times where you can dip below that if you're like in a strategic fat loss phase for sure. But as a baseline and certainly as a a surplus to build more lean tissue, I like seeing all my female clients north of 2000 calories. So I love hearing that. Yeah, it's really like mentally it almost doesn't seem like it could be possible. But then again, I think about eating less than what I'm eating now and I'm like, there's no way I could survive. I mean, I ride horses.
I'm an equestrian athlete. I'm working out. I'm training very consistently, you know, every week. And the thought of eating less kind of freaks me out because I'm like, why would I even want to eat less? Like I'm maintaining and still achieving results. Adding muscle, losing, you know, not intending to lose body fat. I don't mean to lose body fat at this point, but I do want to gain muscle and keep my muscle, you know, as time progresses over the next 10 and 20 years. So that's you know.
All starts with what I'm doing now and what I've been doing. So I love it. I love it. What is the have you gotten routine lab panels done and home home roll work done since you started doing this? Keto, Carnival approach and all those numbers I'm assuming have improved as well. Oh yeah. So I mean I've had I, I specialize in functional lab work with my clients. So I have tested myself, you
know throughout the years. I'm like a you know, my theory is or my approach is test, don't guess to really figure out what's going on because people can present with the same symptoms yet their lab work can look completely different and therefore the approach for however they need to rebalance their individual body. Is going to be completely. Different. So from that aspect, I'm a huge
believer in lab work. So for myself, you know, years ago when I first started, I didn't know about leptin resistance and I didn't know about insulin resistance back in, you know, 2006, right. So I was just getting sort of the basic, you know, blood work that the doctors would run.
But you know, after that, once I started really getting into this work, it was looking at a full expanded thyroid panel and the antibodies and the leptin and the insulin and all the inflammatory markers and just kind of keeping track of all that along with urine hormone testing and gut testing via stool and micronutrient testing and and all of that stuff. And definitely things have, you know, continue to improve for me even now even after I've been, I've been doing this for a long
time. One thing that I've didn't mention, hopefully it's OK to mention just as far as like my history and my story is that I had breast implants and I had them in 2012. I've since had them removed and they definitely wreaked a lot of havoc for me on my system. So that was sort of this bump in the road that I had for, you know, about 8 years of of, you know, continuing to do all the right things. And I wasn't really tracking with the best results, so to speak.
I mean, I was still feeling better than I ever had and better than I was in my 20s, but that was like a bump in the road for me for sure. And I did track all my labs and everything throughout that, that time and then had those implants removed about four year, three or four years ago. It's kind of crazy with the implants cause like they never talk about the adverse effects that can come with that. So people just assume it is totally, completely, you know, a
cosmetic thing. There's no, you know, negative side effects whatsoever. But as you start diving deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole of health and nutrition, and that leads to all the other environmental factors and toxins and everything else that can can affect hormones and how your body responds. So yeah, flesh that out a little bit. What? What were you noticing from that? When, when could you pinpoint that being the reason for the
issues? So that's an always an interesting question for me. So if you know, looking back, being completely honest, I started having symptoms about three weeks after the initial surgery. I asked the doctor, I like went to the doctor. I told him when I was experiencing and on one side I was sort of feeling like I had like a golf ball, like almost like a lump. No, it's that's going to go away. Those symptoms, you know, digestive issues and other things that there's no way
that's the implants. So then I blame the anesthesia because I've had, you know, I had had anesthesia like one time in the past and was really sensitive to it. I'm, I'm a very poor detoxer and methylator. So you know, I've always had to improve my detoxification with, you know, different strategies. I so I blame that. And then, you know, just over the years, things would improve and then they wouldn't improve. And then, you know, I would be
perfect on my diet. And I was, you know, kind of at that point That was my first experience with Carnivore after that happened because I just thought it was, you know, because the doctor wasn't willing to tell me that it was the implants. And I didn't do, quite frankly, I didn't do the research I should have done prior to getting them. I just looked at the, you know, the vanity side of things. And I always like to sort of say, oh, this is OK to say on your, like, boobs are fun until
they're not fun anymore. And you know, it just really was a few year rabbit hole of doing all the things that I know how to do functionally and holistically. I spent thousands of dollars on acupuncture and other holistic you know treatments to mitigate some of these symptoms. I was having and finally 2018 around I had you know known someone or a few people that had them removed and had they were much sicker than I was. I would never classify myself as sick. I had some you know toxicity
issues but not sick. Like some people really get sick with breast implant illness. And I just finally said like like what if it is the implants. Like I, you know, finally told my husband I wanted to get them removed. And I hope you know it was of course a big financial strain. But it was like, well, what if my fear was, well, what if it wasn't? And then I kept on saying to myself, like, OK, well what if it is? And what if I do get them out and all of this stuff like
miraculously goes away. And a lot of it did. I've had to since do a lot of detox work and rebalancing work after them and after the second surgery. But I've had, I mean I do attribute like a lot of my just being in such a great place health wise knock on wood at this point to finally getting them removed. So I always tell people like I'll never tell people not to do
that, not to get them. I'll just say like do both sides of the research, Do the research you don't want to do and make sure that you are making the the best decision for yourself and your like long term health goals. And the the different, the different materials that use can have a pretty major impact on the level of toxicity and how the body accepts or rejects that, so to speak, correct? Well, yes. And here's the thing.
Like I thought because I was getting, oh, I was just getting saline, I wasn't getting silicone, that I was gonna be like the healthier version. But the shells? On the silicone implants, excuse me, the shells on the saline implants are still silicone. So there's still a leaching of those toxins that are getting into the body. The body is still creating the capsule around the implant to basically protect the body from the foreign object.
And so all of those things should be considered that just if it's, you know, just because it's saline inside, yeah, if someone had a rupture, you'd only be leaking salt water, so to speak. But the capsule is just as toxic on both types of implants. Gotcha. Gotcha. And this is totally outside my wheelhouse, but I would imagine your pursuit in endeavors in equestrian sports has gotten more comfortable without them, right? Oh my gosh.
I used to feel like I couldn't breathe after riding and as I was like leaving the barn, finishing up all my chores, putting my horses away, all of that, I would have like significant. Just like I couldn't take a deep breath. I was having a hard time breathing, like I was exhausted because I had these things pressing on my lungs. And after that it was just a world of difference. So yes, it does definitely. It did definitely make a huge difference in that in that area.
Interesting. Yeah, that's that's super fascinating, 'cause I feel like so many people go that route, but they they go into it totally blindsided, not knowing that there could be any adverse effects whatsoever. But like, as you've, you know, point it out and experience yourself, that's not the case at all. So I think the more awareness with anything nutrition, cosmetic, you know, vanity, I mean any of that stuff like people just need to know and be completely informed before they
do anything. Yeah, exactly. And I will say, like, it was a really shameful time for me, too, because I was, you know, seven years at that point as a health practitioner and trying to help women, you know, heal their hormone issues. And here I go, you know, doing something for vanity, thinking I was going to, you know, make things better for myself. And then I ended up, you know,
having some issues. So, you know, hindsight, I'm glad that I'm able to share my story and, you know, hopefully I'll help someone kind of reverse their own story. But you know, for what it's worth, I think it's it's important to bring out the awareness about it. Totally agree. Totally agree. So how long have you been doing Carnivore now? So my first experience was Carnivore.
With Carnivore was around 2012. Like I mentioned, the the few weeks after the surgery where I started to have all these digestive issues and other symptoms and tolerance to a lot of foods, I was like well, I'll just, you know, I I noticed I felt better just eating meat. I would do bone broth fasts. I would do like some type of a protein shake in the morning and then just eat meat the rest of the day. Protein shake. Was beef based.
And that was sort of my first experience with with Carnivore. Very nice. And that was long before any of this was popularized online. So did you think that, I mean, none of the research on cholesterol or any of that stuff was was out at that point? So did you assume that you were going to feel better, digestively speaking, but you're probably gonna give yourself a heart attack in the process?
No, I didn't quite have that because I was already sort of against, like Full disclosure, I was already against most of the mainstream stuff anyways. And I had been low carb keto and I had some meals that were like meat only, you know, in the previous years that I was low carb and keto, not knowing that it was really a thing to just eat meat at that point. But I wasn't really concerned because I had had so many improvements from just eating low carb and keto prior to that.
Nice. Did you have any adverse effects hormonally whatsoever when it came to removing the carbohydrates, 'cause that's a lot of, I mean, I get a lot of females that assume that you know, around your cycle you need to have more carbohydrates, things of that nature. And I feel like I could just point to all these these females in the in the carnivore space that are absolutely killing it and it doesn't seem to be an issue there.
So I didn't have a lot. I mean, I had, I had so many adverse hormone issues prior to going low carbon keto. I mean, a lot of my, so much of my stuff improved. So from that standpoint, I mean, I hear all the time, oh, you know, the carb not eating carbs are gonna kill your hormones, kill your thyroid, all this stuff. I never see carbohydrates or a lack of as a root cause to a
hormone problem. I think that certainly there are people that might add them back in and they might do well and maybe that's just the way their body, you know, thrives. But I don't really agree with blaming carbohydrates on hormone imbalances. I think that there's something root cause wise that hasn't been found in, you know, those scenarios. Yeah, I completely agree. I feel like the I feel like you should be able to feel pretty good if everything else is dialed in without carbohydrate.
There's no reason you would have to have carbohydrates to feel good, but I feel like a lot of people in the carnivore space especially, they've gotten a little bit too dogmatic when it comes to different food groups altogether. And at the same, you know, the same token, you should be able to eat, you know, a salad and not have a crazy, you know, digestive issues like your body should be able to tolerate that
to some extent. Now, whether or not it's optimal can be made into an argument, but there should be no dogmatic thinking towards how your body responds to a certain food group altogether. Yeah, I definitely agree with that for sure. And I think that, you know, on the dogmatic aspect, I definitely believe that there's
no one-size-fits-all. So I think that there's different, we know what carnivore is at the end of the day, but there's also like some people tolerate spices and some people are going to drink a little bit of coffee and we know those are plants, you know. But I think, you know, for me and myself personally, and when I work with clients, two of my top goals are always results and sustainability.
So, you know, one of the ways I've made this way of eating so sustainable for me for so many years is by including spices. You know, because I tolerate them. Of course, if they didn't. If they didn't work for me, I wouldn't eat them. I don't eat a ton of dairy. I'll eat it here and there, but just I think making it into a way that's sustainable without being dogmatic is the best way.
You know, because one size doesn't fit all and it never you know, was like that for me. I had to go a different way years ago when I was trying to follow the one-size-fits-all dieting and, you know, bro. Diet and all of that and and it's I always say not to be like crude but it's one size never fits all as the he'll all die on because that's what was true for me and that's what I see for women clients and I you know help tailor many different ways of doing carnivore many
different ways of doing keto. In a way that works for each person and I think if I could say back to the hormone conversation is that you know with with carbohydrates. I forgot I wanted to mention this. I have found ways to cycle, you know various amounts of protein and fat cycling macros up and down where people talk about adding in carbohydrates. I have never had to tell a client to add 150 grams of carbohydrates during their cycle in order to get rid of their hormone.
Issues. And I think that there's other strategies to use that can fully support hormones that don't involve carbohydrates. Yeah, I completely agree. Oftentimes when I'm working with a female client and they're having some irregular cycles or something like that, it's oftentimes because they're they're not eating enough in general. And if they consume more fats and proteins, those typically work themselves out.
But they'll oftentimes notice an acute improvement with the inclusion of carbohydrates because that there's something getting in more calories. They're able to, you know, more acutely activate more of a parasympathetic state. They're able to relax. Things are able to stabilize for that moment in time due to that influx in food from carbohydrates. But if they were to do that same thing on a more sustained chronic level from just increased fats and proteins, that would probably solve the
issue altogether. Yeah, I agree with that. And do you ever see, because I see this too, like with if their electrolytes are out of balance or their electrolytes are low and they add carbohydrates all of a sudden, they miraculously feel better. But I find that the electrolyte imbalance is another big. Thing that can.
Help women like adding more electrolytes or changing up the ratio of electrolyte minerals that second-half of their cycle can really make a difference for not needing to add the carbohydrates based on how they're feeling. Yeah, totally agree. I mean, when you're eating carbohydrates, you're going to retain more fluid, that's going to retain more and your your muscle tissues, your cells are going to be more saturated with the electrolytes.
Whereas if you cut those out, you're going to likely need to replenish that and the ratio of which you're consuming sodium, potassium and hydration, you know, your water intakes going to change and shift a little bit as well. And I've found that because I track I, I weigh my salt that most people don't need to cut that extent.
But I'm trying to get things totally dialed in and optimized and I've found that the lower my carbohydrates are, especially in the context of lower calories, my body just performs exponentially better with a pretty heavy dose of sodium at a 2 to one ratio of potassium. So supplemental sodium to potassium at about a 2 to one ratio. And that works really well for me and most people.
But if you're not tracking any of your electrolyte intake and you're deficient in that, then you're not going to feel good whatsoever. But that could temporarily be alleviated with the inclusion of carbs simply because you're going to retain more of the electrolytes you are taking in, right? Right. No, I've I for me personally I definitely. Need a lot of electrolytes. That's another thing that's been super, like talk about dogma and the carnivore spaces.
You know, people saying you shouldn't need salt, you shouldn't need electrolytes. And I'm just seeing that being like I see more problems with people trying to follow the removal of electrolytes and salt, then, you know, trying to balance those ratios. So that's another area that I'm really passionate about. I use a lot of electrolytes. I need a lot of sodium. I sweat a lot with all the stuff I'm doing and I. And another. And I just think that that's, you know, super important as
well. I'm curious on that one because I don't know. I have noticed that, like, there's been a surge in people, you know, touting how little salt they're consuming on a carnivore diet and, you know, more power to you. That's great. Your body can kind of reset its equilibrium at higher or lower intakes. But why are people incentivized to to do that? Like, what has been the carnivore push for people to remove them entirely? Because it's not like salt is going to be impacting your blood
sugar, like like sugar would. So I don't understand why they're so highly motivated to remove them altogether. I think some of it has more to do with the we'll say all kind of kind of like air quote electrolyte products and obviously the you know this the sweetener can be debated debated because stevia is it's a sweetener and on Carnivore you're technically supposed to be removing the sweeteners.
So I think it's more about the electrolyte products and adding a supplement per SE than the actual salt itself. But yet some do say like no salt and I I'm not even sure. I just feel like there's sometimes not even any. What's the word? I want to say science behind that? Because if someone were to look at, you know, then then someone might say, oh, well, you know, years ago when they were, you know, our ancestors or whatever, they weren't adding electrolyte packets to their food or their
water. Well, that's because their soil wasn't as depleted as it is now. So it's like we could argue this stuff back and forth and you know, so many different ways, but I just really encourage people to experiment and come up with their own n = 1 and if they feel great with salt then go for it. And if they don't need it then that's fine too. But you know, anyways, I could go on on this one for a while, but that's kind of my take on that. No, I totally agree.
I mean, I can get behind like a purist that wants to remove all packaged products and supplements and just eat as pure and pristine as possible. But the the electrolyte, you know, supplements in my mind are just a convenience factor. Like I could I could accomplish the same goal by just simply going outside and finding a big old rock salt block and licking on it a few times a day. So it's not like I would want to
remove salt altogether. And yeah, you're absolutely right about this the the soil health too, like the the minerals in the soil are not near what they were 500 years ago. So you can't really lean on that argument too, too heavily. Yeah, it's it's interesting. Like, I I just think people need to get more in tune with their body. Like if if I have zero sodium throughout the day, I don't feel or operate nearly as well as if I have 8000 milligrams of sodium throughout the day.
So I have 8000 milligrams of sodium. You know, like it's just that, yeah. I mean I can't even I can't even function without salt on a daily basis. And I'm not embarrassed to say that because someone else said, oh, you shouldn't have salt.
Like no I'm very clear that salt helps me you know salt and the balance of the other minerals as well and just back to the products thing sure I could make my own mixture of sodium, potassium magnesium but I'm not gonna I don't I'm not gonna do that I I'm admittedly I'd rather buy it I have other things to spend my time on 100 percent 100% so So what is the the common demographic in your or the common denominator in your client demographic like who are who are the people coming to
work with you. So most of the women so probably my practice is about 90% women. I do work with men but 90% of my clients that come to me are women ages late 30s through actually the early 70s. I see the little you know some pre menopausal women looking for more for fertility type results. So I've helped a handful of women with fertility issues that would probably be the the the 20s and 30s, younger 30s.
But then as far as late 30s and above it's the perimenopausal, menopausal, postmenopausal group that have had you know, various symptoms stemming from hormone imbalances, digestive issues and just can't quite. They've, you know, they've tried keto, they've tried Carnivore, they've tried to put, you know the mix of macros, try to kind of figure everything out and they just haven't been able to quite put all the pieces
together. So they come to me to sort of, OK, dissect everything and look at what blood work they need and other testing and kind of, you know, look more on an individual basis because they've tried to follow all the masses and all the massive information. While there's a lot of good information out there, as you all know, working with clients, it needs to be very tailored and individualized to an individual person, their stats, their goals and what they have going on.
Yeah, totally. And everyone is individualized for sure. But if it if you were to segment your female demographic that's dealing with hormone implications, would you say that the vast majority of those are likely a result of them not consuming the proper amount of intake based off of their, you know, expenditure throughout the day? Like, are they just coming to you having chronically under reading for far too long? Yeah. So that is probably what I see
8085% of the time. Certainly there are some women who come to me and can't lose because they're overeating. But I do find even the ones that are overeating are undernourished from a nutrient density or nutrient, you know, macronutrient, micronutrient deficiency standpoint. So needing to kind of rebalance their digestion really helps.
But yes, I think a high percentage of the women that I see are have chronically under eaten that's led to their thyroid issues that's you know dominoed effect domino affected into into their adrenal issues and then of course digestion, you know it's all kind of A and they're all related. But yes, I think overall the under eating is a is a huge component and not just under eating.
I mean I always say like you know if you're under eating on keto or carnivore, you're still on a restrictive diet. But it's the years of dieting and you know trying to lose weight and and follow the all the shake plans and all the things that are out there that you know, maybe they've lost weight and then they've gained it back and they've done that multiple times and now they don't understand why they can't
lose the weight. And so you know we have to do a lot of, as you're well familiar with the reverse dieting and helping them slowly add it back so they can minimize the gain and all of that kind of stuff totally, totally. What is your stance on HRT as it relates to females in that perimenopausal timeframe? Like are you pro HRT? Have you tried to find ways to optimize without? What is your overall stance on that? Yeah, this is actually one of my favorite questions.
So my overall stance on on HRT, so when I say HRT, I'm always referring to bioidentical. So BHRT. So just to clarify and I think that I think it's a great tool. I don't think that women should just, you know, if they're having a bunch of issues, they should just automatically. Start on HRT. The reason for that is because they need to optimize our digestion. They need to optimize our liver detoxification. They need to test and see what their hormones are doing, what
is happening with their body. They need to regulate their their liver detoxification, make sure that they're eliminating, you know, daily. That's a big thing on carnivore. Oh, it's OK to just, you know, poop once a week? No, you. There's reasons why we go every day. We have to be eliminating those toxins. Estrogen metabolism is related
to that. So there's a lot of factors that I like to address prior to saying okay, now might be a good time for you to go look at BHRT if you have not gotten the results that you essentially want. So I like to sorry, this is like a long answer to your question, but I like to make sure that other things are optimized first. Their food intake, make sure they're eating enough, make sure that they're digesting while they're assimilating their nutrients, they're absorbing,
they're eliminating properly. Their liver detox system is working. They're not still having a bunch of, you know, symptoms that are are sort of showing that their system is backed up, so to speak and try to do as much as we can with food. I do believe in supplementation.
So helping their kind of direct their body on where they need to, where it needs to go via supplementation and then getting to a point where then maybe they could, they could add in some BHRT if they're still having symptoms. That is the best case scenario and that's where I see the least, the most women thriving and the least amount of women
crashing. On the flip side, I do get a lot of clients that have that have said that come to me and say I tried hormone therapy and it didn't work or I felt good for a couple of months and then I didn't feel so good anymore. When you don't optimize all of the systems and address the adrenals and you know other areas then you do have that sort of crashing effect or feeling like well I tried hormones and they didn't work for me. So I have a sort of middle of
the road. I think that it's a great adjunct to add when women are struggling and I think that it shouldn't be the first go to because of the reason all the things I just mentioned and I think that a lot of women can thrive on it as well. Do you find many women that are better candidates for not using BHRT like if they how can I
Franken this question. So if you get an identical twin, for instance, and they are not, they've got their diet dialed in, their digestions on point, everything is is as it should be. Would that individual be better off by just simply staying natural through and through and not incorporating the PHRT, or are they going to see a benefit regardless by incorporating that during those perimenopuzzle years? Well, I think it depends on the
individual person. I mean, some, some women are going to do all the things and they're going to feel great and they might not necessarily feel the need for it. And then other women are going to do all the things and they're still going to struggle with symptoms. So I think each person should evaluate, you know, where they are and what they're, you know, someone who feels great probably isn't going to say, oh, well, I need to go on hormones because
why would they? They feel great, you know what I'm saying. So I think that in that scenario, someone should go by, you know, what's happening for them and what their level say and and that kind of thing. I mean there are implications long term to low estrogen that have to do with cognition and brain health and a lot of different things. And I think that being said. One of the. I guess maybe I'll call this a
little tip. I will say for women listening, if you are going to go on hormone therapy or you're considering it, please be sure that your practitioner tests before they put you on hormones. I see it all the time. They're just basing it off of, off of symptoms. And a lot of these hormone deficiencies or hormone imbalances they can present with the same symptoms. Yet as soon as you have a lab test, they look, you know, the levels look different on the lab test.
So always make sure that you're, you know, you have a baseline of where you're what's happening now. And then it's continued. You know, the practitioner continues to look at what's happening on a every six month or at least annual basis. Yeah, I I think you're right on
the money there. I've seen a lot of people I feel like the HRT department has gotten so popular as of like that people are just defaulting to it without doing the the preliminary groundwork, getting everything dialed in, getting the blood work panels done, and then getting those updated panels done, you know, on a regular basis after getting on the HRT. But I feel like there's also a point at which people have just defaulted to wanting to get on that from an optimization standpoint.
So I'm trying to tease out if there are use case scenarios in which you can be optimized without it. And this is kind of a subsequation for my own self because I compete naturally so they won't even allow it. But at the same time that with all the current research it seems as though that's the best thing you can do if everything else is perfectly dialed in to continue to perform at a high level and basically beat father time to some extent, right?
And I think that, you know, just as far as optimization goes, I think that there's a lot that can be done prior to adding in the hormone therapy. And I think that you know some who just go to it without doing the work first is, you know, I understand they're they're having, you know, the worst symptoms, but sometimes that's the worst thing that they can do because there's other things that can be done that can help them, you know, prior to, you know, prior to embarking on the
on the hormones. Yeah, totally agree. I kind of want to get your take on macronutrient distribution because there has been a big push as of late to to kind of, you know, go carnivore but at an incredibly high protein relative to fat intake. And I think that's large in large part due to, you know, not too long ago there was this push against protein and people were under consuming protein, which
is certainly far from optimal. But it's like the pendulum has swung so far the other direction that people are prioritizing protein to the extent of not incorporating enough dietary fat. And I'd just be curious to get your take on that, Yeah. That is not my favorite approach. The the exclusion of the dietary fat, I'm assuming yes, yes, sorry, it wasn't clear.
Yeah. So any type of, you know, protein sparing type thing where it's very high protein and and minimal fat, I don't see as working long term. I think that you know here and there if you have a day where you're not that hungry, yeah, go ahead and just prioritize protein definitely. But just as a longer term approach, rebalancing hormones, satiety, hunger, cravings, brain function, sleep, I mean the list goes on.
I think that having the right balance of protein and fat is very important and I like to almost think of it as a high protein and higher fat approach. I mean obviously if we get down to nitty gritty and look at numbers, you know there's going to be a difference. It's not going to be exactly high protein and high fat. But I think that when you start to get below I mean dare I even give ratios.
I'll just give this loosely, but you know below the. 60% protein, 40% fat mark for rebalancing hormones and long term sustainability. That's where I start to see some issues. I like to be a little bit higher protein and higher. Fat in a sense than that, but that's going to also be based on their total caloric intake at the same time. So I think a combination of making sure they're not under eating in their total energy or
total calories. And then breaking down the protein and fat to what someone you know should be getting based on what their goals are. I think that's the most ideal way to look at it. I might have just come up on a tangent, but did I answer your question? No. You're definitely on the same page as me. I feel like there's and it's it's it's kind of hard to have these conversations online because people don't see the whole context.
So I could say hey look, I feel and operate best when I'm at you know, 70 to 75% of my calories coming from fat. So somebody might try and emulate that. But if they're only consuming 1000 calories and 75% of it's coming from fat, they're they're going to be under consuming protein, which is obviously not good. I'm eating that ratio at 4000 plus calories a day. So I'm I can easily take in 250 grams of protein and still have the vast majority of my calories coming from fat and feeling
great. So the total, you know, fuel intake, total caloric intake relative to macro distribution is key. And it's like so much of that can be worked out if people are just simply eating enough food.
But yeah, 100% agree with you in that a lot of these people that are doing this really high protein, you know while it's true that they need protein, if you're doing so at the exclusion of fat and you're already doing low to no carb because you're following keto or carnivore, then you're not going to have
great energy. I mean protein is not a great substrate for energy and if you're doing high protein and minimal fat intake, you're just not going to feel good, which is going to lead to lack of ability to sustain the diet and all the hormonal implications that follow suit. So it's just it's it's strange to me that people think they have to exclude everything like I'm all for you know, you've got like 3 macro nutrients, proteins, fats and carbs.
You can get away with removing one, ideally the carbs, but to try and remove 2 just does not make sense, right? I always tell people like, OK, you can't remove both energy sources, carbs and fat, and expect to feel well, right? And on the flip side, if I could say because there's a big push, you know, as you said has been for this higher fat carnivore approach, I'm all for fat, for helping with hormones and then
all of that. Obviously, you know, saturated fat is the backbone for our steroid hormones and all of our sex hormones. That being said, a lot of my clients too have experimented with the quote UN, quote, higher fat carnivore approach. And because they're under eating their protein, you know they're under eating their protein and then they end up with too high fat and then they're gaining and
wondering why they're gaining. And so the balance is just completely, you know, also completely off. So I do think the whole 8020 thing does work for some individuals, but again it also has to be in the context of making sure you're getting enough overall and then you know optimizing fat intake for digestion. So a lot of people will have a lot of digestive issues if they try to get in that 80% fat mark, if they're really truly eating as much as they should be eating.
So it's very much a a balance, you know, depending on the individual person, which I'm sure you've found personally and working with your clients. Yeah. And I think those like the macro distribution that one performs best at is is so highly dependent upon so many different factors their their total caloric intake being one
obviously the big one. But also you know how lean you are cause like your body composition is going to dictate what ratio you're going to feel best at totally independent of what your compositional goals are like just simply what you feel best at is going to be predicated on what your composition is at the time. There's just so many factors.
So like what ratio you feel and perform best at is, is not a set in stone number like that changes based off of all these environmental factors that are, you know, going on in tandem.
So people should never get so you know, set on one specific macro distribution breakdown that they just live and die by that because that that should shift and it should be modulated like you said, like you can increase your caloric intake over time, decrease it over time, like there's benefits to being in a surplus, benefits to being in a deficit. You shouldn't really stick with any one thing indefinitely. Yeah, I love that. I love that you talked about
that. And one thing that I will kind of add because I do have in my group, I have a group weight loss program where I have the gals doing their own macros and all of that kind of stuff. And I do a lot of people ask me also about the question of like you know, does it work to create metabolic confusion where you do different things in your body response, which I think can be a strategy that works for some
people. But what I also find really, really helpful and maybe you can speak to this and what you see is that it has there has to be some consistency. For a certain. Period of time before you get into like all the fancy stuff and doing all the, we'll just call them macro bio hacks in a sense.
And I think that the consistency is going to lead someone to be able to kind of play with things a little bit and change things up. But I find that because people are making so many changes based on trying to follow the masses and they're just not getting anywhere, they've got to sort of dial things in, be consistent for a period of time, and then get to the point where they can, you know, cycle the different strategies, cycle the different variables.
It's a lot of what I teach in my group program and then get to a point where they see that, OK, when I cycle this or when I do this, this changes it. This works. I felt good doing this for a little while. My hormone cycle, all that stuff kind of comes into play, yeah, because there's definitely a lag effect to nutritional manipulations that you're making.
I mean, you you can have one thing, you know, on Monday and your body may be giving you feedback on what that that stimulus was on Wednesday or Thursday. And if you're changing things every 24 hours, like you're never going to be able to pinpoint what the driving factor is. So I typically I'll I'll change macros you know on a weekly basis, but I'll eat the exact same thing during the course of that week at that given set of
macros. So I can really have a clear pulse as to how my body feels at that food intake at that macro distribution and just remove as many variables as possible. And then I'll have that trending up or down depending on whether I'm in a caloric surplus or deficit building phase or cutting phase for months on end sometimes years on end before I shift that the different to a different direction. So I'm making a lot of changes. I'm, I'm hacking, I don't like
the word hacking. I'm I'm testing a lot of things with a lot of things. But I'm doing so more so on like a a long term basis like like as a as an illustration my prep.
You know, when I do a competition prep and I'm in a prioritizing fat loss, like that is a 33 week long process and then I'm reverse dieting out of that for the next, you know, like right now I'm 17 weeks into my reverse diet and then I'll be in a building phase for the next three years before I'd start to strategically cut my caloric intake down again. I mean, there may be times during that building phase when I'm at a surplus where I'll throw in some strategic extended
fast. I don't ever really recommend extended fast while also being at a, you know, deficit overall to me stresses on the body, but I'm not really changing things that drastically given the phase that I'm in, so to speak.
So the phases last quite a long time, and people that are trying to change their body composition or trying to improve their health or figure out what diets do and don't work for them, what foods do and don't work for them, what supplements do and don't work for them, if they're changing it every few days, they'll never be able to pinpoint anything exactly. No, I love all of that because I just think that people get into not even realizing that they're not even being consistent.
I mean in all fairness, because they're just trying to do make changes based on something they've seen on social media or on a video or on a podcast. And I think that that is the biggest you know, sort of a what am I trying to say like a problem in a sense of just I understand they're they're so badly wanting their results but the the lack of consistency is. Definitely contributing to not getting those results. Yeah, 100%, especially when it comes to doing things outside
their comfort zone. I mean like your body wants to stay comfortable. Like that's how we've evolutionarily been, you know, been raised. Like we want to stay in a comfortable place. And if you are comfortable at, you know, 30% body fat, it's not going to be effortless to get down to 20% body fat. It's not going to be effortless to get down to 10% body fat. Like it's it's all going to stem from doing something outside of the norm to elicit a response different from what you've
always gotten. So yeah, like you have to just embrace that but be excited about that. Like that's that's kind of a psychological conversation which we we we do a whole podcast on the psychology of body composition changes. But, but yeah, like people can't expect it to be effortless if they're wanting to change something from what they've always done their entire life. Like that's just doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I totally agree. Well tell me about this, this
group that you've got going. So you have a A group with your client, with your client pools that are interacting in that. Yeah. So I I have my one-on-one practice, but I also have a a an online weight loss group. It's a seven week program where it's called the weight loss accelerator program And I I do video sessions on a weekly basis. The ladies are getting individual coaching and feedback within a group setting.
So not only do they get their own coaching and feedback from me, but they also get the benefit of being in the group setting. So they can, you know, see the other ladies questions and answers and the feedback I'm giving giving to the other women as well. So, you know, that might trigger a question for someone or they might think, Oh yeah, I had that issue a few weeks ago and I
didn't even remember. So I just really have a very it's like there's a curriculum where we have different topics every week, different accountability in the group. And it's just a really great, I've had women, you know, anywhere from losing anywhere from 5 to 15 or 20 lbs. And then just along the way lots of NS VS like the non scale victories of losing inches to energy digestion, improving, sleep improving just a lot of different lots, a lot of
different things. So it's a very, I call it, it's kind of like my baby. I started doing group online programs probably 8 years ago and sort of it just evolved over the years. I had a little break after 2020. I did a lot of groups in 2020. So it's a little burnt out on it to be really honest with you. But then got back into it 2021 I believe and this, this evolution of the seven week program seems to be my favorite and the best so far that I've done so.
So since you have it based off a seven week timeline, do you, do you open the group up and like cohorts like people join at the same time, so they're going to the seven weeks at the same time or how is that structured? Yeah. So it opens at the same time. All the women join at the same time, and then it's the same same group. The registration closes and it's the same group, same ladies for those seven weeks. So every week is like, like I
said, it's like a curriculum. So there's every week, every week, every topic builds on each other. And then by the end, they've got these foundational strategies that they can put into play. That really helps to clarify the overwhelming and misinformation out there. Gives them a lot of direction on what they should do next, how to sort of build, build those layers of that foundation on each other and then be able to kind of take the next steps for them and work from there. Very nice.
I think the, the accountability factor with a group setting is just so, so paramount. And anytime you can get people that are going through something new, something challenging together so they can bounce ideas off one another and then just for lack of a better word, suffer with somebody else, have some camaraderie there, it just it makes the adherence so much
better. Yeah. What I see a lot too, I definitely agree with that, is that a lot of these ladies that have, you know, been doing things on their own and never been in a community or maybe been in communities, but they haven't maybe been, you know, able to relate to other ladies, is that they do see a lot of similarities of, OK, you're, you know, in your 40s or your 50s or whatever age. And you've been through some of the same things I've been through.
And just to have that camaraderie of like you say like community and seeing that there are other women that have gone through the exact same things or you know, they've had results are, let's be real slower than they thought that they should be. You know, just whatever the case is can be really, really helpful because I think that people have, you know, expectations about weight loss and how fast
things should happen. And and then you they kind of get into it and they're like, oh, it's kind of like a a wake. Up call as far as that goes. That there are no quick fixes, Yeah. And that that's so key. I feel like a lot of people they they want that quick fix and it's it's disheartening when you don't see the scale go up or down or whatever the goal is. But it's like you each and this, this, this is said a million times in fitness circles and
nutrition circles. But it's like you really truly have to just enjoy the journey more so than the in destination. Because once you start falling in love with the process then there is no in destination like you just simply want to get better and better. You don't want to maintain like you want to play the long game and have longevity and health that thrives well into your later years. And if you view it through that lens, you're not likely gonna be
disheartened when you hit these small Rd. bumps. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I'm sure you know in your quest and journey and all of the, you know, recent competition, you're learning stuff about yourself every day. And I feel like too for me like yes, I've, you know, been doing this a while and I've had a lot of success and I am 47 and still learning about myself.
And you know, I'm in a time where hormones are changing and I'm just learning how to manage it all and continue to, you know, figure out how I'm going to keep thriving and and just moving forward. Totally out of curiosity, this is kind of a business question, but what platform have you built the, the, the community on? So I run the community on Facebook, honestly, in a private Facebook group. Nice. And that's worked pretty well
for you. Yeah. Overall, I think, you know, Facebook has its little glitches here and there. But just in general, we do some Zoom calls, I think for the videos, the Facebook Live feature really is helpful. And so we do. I do a combination of Facebook Live videos and Zoom calls and then the the recordings are always posted. Awesome. When is the the next cohort start? So the next one will start April 14th. So just in about just just about a month from now. Very cool.
Very cool. Yeah. What's in the what's the new the new topic right now in the in the carnivore space I'm the worst at consuming content. So I don't even know what is controversial right now. Probably like I should. But what is the hot, hot button issue at the moment? I think that well, I feel like electrolytes will always be that hot button. One of them. And I think the macros, like the higher protein or higher fat, It's like the great debate. Higher protein, higher fat, The count.
Oh, here's another one. Counting, like counting macros or not counting macros. Counting calories. You don't have to count calories. Calories don't matter on carnivore. Have you heard that one? I have. Which is interesting. It's it's funny because like, I am pretty much as close to carnivore as you can get without being officially carnivore. Like, I still have some things, but I I eat really clean and I am gaining body fat right now.
Planned gained body fat, but it's like I am most definitely gaining body fat and I am sticking to a relatively carnivore approach. So it's like the notion that you can't gain body fat in the context of just simply removing the carbs is, is is an interesting argument.
Yeah no, I know and I I love to hear the, you know, the calories don't matter on carnivore or you know, it's like that's, you know, and I just in looking at the different people that come to carnivore and even keto and sort of have this, you know, calories might not matter outlook. I feel like, you know, when they share that stuff on social media especially, nobody knows what they were doing prior. Nobody knows if they were eating McDonald's.
You know, not just burger patties, all the things you know and fast food and processed food and how much they were actually consuming before. So while they might think they don't need to count anything on carnivore what is what were they actually consuming before? Because what they were consuming before may have in fact been more than what they're getting
now. But because they're just eating carnivore, they could still be in a in a deficit from what they were doing before without realizing it. Yeah, it's it's interesting. I was actually having this conversation with somebody the other day. It's like there's there's a lot of good that comes from all these different dietary protocols like the flexible dieting, if it fits your macros, bro dieting approach.
Like, I would not recommend that now, but there's a lot of things I learned in doing that that I've since applied to what I now know about proper ketogenic and carnivore nutrition. It's like you can pick-n-pull these, these highlights, these positive components of different types of, you know, eating and just mesh them together to make it your own and make it work
well for you. Like there's this mutually beneficial thing that happens when you don't look through the lens of, hey, it's either this or that. It could be a, you know, this and that approach. Yeah. And I like to always say like, you know, going back to there's no one-size-fits-all.
And just with carnivore, really making sure that you're not under eating, not overeating and looking at all of the different ways of doing things and getting to what works for you on an individual basis is really the, you know, the best approach. And I think that, you know, some people, it's going to be carnivores, some people it's going to be low carb, some people it's going to be keto. And all of those things are OK
without being dogmatic. And I think that again, sustainability and results are the top. You know what people should be going after and however they get there is however they get there. Yeah, 100% completely agree. Well, where am I going to see you next? Are you going to be at any of the conferences this year? We are. I'm going to be at Hacker Health again this year. So I'm very excited.
I'll be speaking on the, I guess this year they renamed the Carnivore Panel. It's going to be troubleshooting the carnivore diet, so I'm excited to be on that panel and then of course excited to just see all the speakers. It looks like there's a great line up this year so I'm very excited to to be back there. Yeah, it's going to be a great time indeed. I I always enjoy that conference, lots of good people there. It's going to be great having you there again.
It's just I feel like that's one of the better, better conferences for just rubbing shoulders with everybody in the space and get this all together in Austin to eat good BBQ. Like it's it's it's pretty much a win win across the table.
Yeah, and I love that they actually are doing the Hack your Health thing this year because I think that there's going to be a lot of people coming that maybe wouldn't wouldn't necessarily be interested if it was just called, you know, just Aikido Conference. But maybe it will open a lot of people's eyes up to doing things differently and being able to, you know, look at this approach as a, you know, really long term health and longevity and and see what works for them kind of
thing. I hope so. I hope so. I think it's interesting like I don't ever want keto to be viewed as this negative connotation. I mean I feel like at the end of the day it's a, it's a metabolic state and you know, anybody can benefit from it regardless of age, race, gender, skin color
and that stuff. And I feel like if you can change the name or call whatever you want to call it, but just simply get more people in the door to experience it, then that that's what you got to do. That's the main thing. I think it's what they're trying to go with with the rebrand. So I'm hopeful that's the outcome. Yeah. No, I definitely agree.
And I think that the more people see this as a way of life and a sustainable way of life that, you know, they get to eat delicious food and be healthy at the same time. I mean, it's a total win, right? Yeah, 100 percent, 100%. What are you having for dinner tonight, Danny? I'm curious. Rib eye. Rib eye, is that your go to, you know, Yes, it is. So ground beef or rib eye are my go to's. For a while I was on a ground beef kick.
I love ground beef. I make this crispy broiler, brief beef under the broiler and it's just ground beef, a little bit of smoked or regular sea salt, garlic, smoked paprika and 10 or 15 minutes under the broiler. It's excellent. But I will say the last probably four to six months I have been all about rib eye. And so I guess I feel like sometimes, you know, our bodies just tell us what we need and. I like to. Incorporate some seafood in there as well.
And I do well on pork, but I do not eat chicken. No chicken. It's just because you don't prefer it. I don't actually feel super great after I eat it. It's been a while since I've tried it. So I feel like maybe some wings this summer sound might sound good, but just don't feel that great after I I have it and I don't have a lot of energy from it. So beef tends to I tend to do the best on beef. Yeah, I agree.
Have you gravitated more towards, not necessarily raw, but cooking your food less and less the longer you've been carnivore? No, I haven't. I am proud to say that I have not. I do not do rare. I like medium rare and definitely have not found myself wanting rarer meat. For sure. I know a lot of people say that, but I don't find that to be. The case for myself.
It's interesting, I I eat a lot of ground beef, ground lamb, ground venison, and what I noticed is I just kind of wanted to sear like how I do my ground meat now is I'll just pull out of the package, I'll get my cast iron skillet hot and I'll pretty much just sear both sides. But I'm not like cooking it all the way through. Like the inside is completely raw, but I know exactly where that meat came from. I'm getting it all locally or I've harvested it myself.
So I know the quality is there and not to worry about you know salmonella or parasites or that that but it's interesting I've I've found myself gravitating towards that as I've. I don't know if it's because I was eating so little I just wanted to change in texture or what the deal was. But I I definitely found that in myself. Yeah no, I think that's interesting. I do hear that a lot from from people.
And they're definitely sometimes where when I'm cooking my steak, I feel like, well, I don't, you know, I don't want it as done, so to speak, but I think for the most part for me, I I go to that sort of medium rare place. Yeah, my steaks. I prefer medium rare more so than raw, for sure. The ground meat I can get it right away with, but I like the nice crust and C on the outside, I can't. I can't sacrifice that. Yeah, I know for. Sure. And you, I know you, you hunt a
lot. You, I know you said you harvest, but you hunt a lot of your own meat. Is that correct? I thought, yeah, I got a freezer full of venison that I've gotten over the years. Yeah, that's that's awesome. Yeah, I do like, I do like that for sure. Well, Danny, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. I can't wait to see you in person here in just a few short months. Where do people go to find out more about you and to sign up for that that cohort group when
it opens up? If they're. If they're interested, yeah, absolutely. So my website is Nutrition the naturalway.com and anyone is welcome to. There's info on there. You can send me a message through this site. I spend a lot of time on Instagram and my stories, I do a lot of Q&A and such. So at carnivore dot keto dot fitness I do also have a keto carnivore Facebook group as well and your website looks really, really good by the way.
I jumped on that prior to this this conversation and it's really clean, really well put together. So kudos to to you or your web team, whoever, whoever built that out, thank you. That actually was that is AI just launched that site a couple of months ago that was a very a lot of hard work and years went into that site getting to the getting it to the point where it is now. So I definitely, greatly, greatly appreciate those words.
We'll definitely be proud of it because it looks very clean, very easy to to navigate. So that that that's important. So kudos to you for sure. Thanks so much and it was great chatting with you. I look forward to seeing you in just a few months as well. I do as well. We will definitely have to get some some beef BBQ while in Texas. Definitely. I look forward to it. Take care, Danny. OK. Take care, Robert.