Hi, everyone, Welcome The Mother Knows Death. We have a special episode that we are doing with our friend Gandhi from Sauce on the side.
I know, I'm so excited about this episode. By the way, I've been waiting on it.
We are huge fans of your show.
Same. I think you guys are amazing and I love what you do. I said all the time, I love women in science. It's not that women are not in science. I feel like women don't get highlighted enough who are in science. I think the guys get a lot of attention, but when women are doing good things, I love it. So yeah, thanks for doing this with me.
It's really interesting that you say that, because, especially in my field, it's predominantly women now. But when I started training, it was like the older people that were there there were more men. So it's just interesting how it's transitioning.
And I bet that the women are just doing amazing jobs.
Oh yeah, totally.
So we have like a ton of stuff to talk about, right, Yes, I want to know how you guys. We're doing a crossover episode, so your listeners are going to hear me, and my listeners are going to hear you, and I'm excited about that for a lot of reasons, but mostly because I could talk to you all for a million years about one hundred different things. We got started talking about Charlie Kirk in the hallway. Yeah, I don't know where you guys want to start, So I feel like
you should. You should take the lead on this and tell us where we're going.
All right, So I'm I've heard a rumor that they said that he did not have an autopsy done. Mm hmm, Charlie Kirk. But okay, I would like to know where that came from. Officially, I think that it is very unlike. I think that's unlikely, just the way that the law works in every jurisdiction. If you have a homicide case, it's an automatic autopsy. So I think that, you know, we're used to maybe in LA, especially the records are public. We can go on and we could get people's full
autopsy reports, including celebrit He's like Michael Jackson. But certain states are not that open, and Utah could possibly be one of them that they just say it's none of the public's business and you're not having that information. So I think that definitely after so when a person dies in that situation at the hospital. The hospital is required to report that death, and they would report it to the Medical Examiner's office and then they would come pick up the body and bring it to the MORG and
do the autopsy. I don't see how in any world that wouldn't have been done. They don't even care if he had religious exemptions or anything like. They're doing it because it's going to be a court case and they're going to have to testify, And how could anyone testify if no one examined it.
So the confusion is probably no autopsy versus no autopsy report, at least to the public. You're saying there has to be one.
There has to be otherwise the guy who we could talk about if he did it.
Tyler Robinson, if he did it, because I think we're kind of all on the same page, like, no, I think we don't think so at this point.
I think a lot of people are on that page.
I was.
I was fallen for a little while until that the text messages came out and then I'm like, Okay, this is weird. If they were if they were eighty year olds, you might believe it or something. I just don't even at our age, Like if you looked at your text messages with your friends, they would be all abbreviations and.
Without a doubt, Yeah, I wouldn't have like some Shakespearean wording to my significant other about nonthing. It would be very weird.
Yeah, I just thought. I just thought that that was weird and it just makes me question things now. But for sure, if they're going to try to prosecute someone, there has to be an autopsy because otherwise, how are you gonna prove anything just because of the footage? Like, no, that that could be for all you know, right, Like.
Could they hold on to the report until the trial happens, because we like we don't always get them right away. Most of the time when they come out, it's because TMS reporters are waiting and they get them immediately. But we had requested the one for in the David case, the less Revus autopsy report. Yes, and they're basically like, you're not getting it until this case.
Is we still haven't gotten it, and we right, and you paid for it, paid.
For it, and they sent me one page that said nothing and that's that.
How much does it cost to request an autopsy report? That one was.
Thirty four dollars, I believe.
And you can request this from anyone anywhere, because I think I might go request an autopsy report about something that I've been interested in for a while.
I believe anybody can get certain offices depending on you. Yeah, like for La, Yes, like New York doesn't oftentimes release the whole report. They might just give a diagnosis or something like that. There's all these different rules depending where you are, but there's lots like let's talk about the Brian Coberger Idaho for a case, for example. This whole time, I haven't written about it on my website because I was like, I want to wait and see what the
autopsy reports say. They never got released, and then they just released a bunch of stuff because he pled guilty, and they're still not really autopsy reports. They're more like summery too. Yeah, but I've never seen an actual autopsy report on each one of those victims yet. There's summaries maybe some describing some of the wounds, but it's not a full autopsy report, so that we might not ever see that, And I guess for public interest it's probably
they should because there's so many questions. But at the same time, they're scared to death that people are going to pick it apart like another case that we're going to talk about later. Okay, So so that right there I think is not correct. Information is I could be wrong, but I just don't see in a world if a court case is happening, how there could not be an autopsy.
I mean, it's fascinating that the more information we have at our fingertips, it's like we have no information because you're getting seventy thousand different people saying different things at one time. Most of them haven't actually done the research on how this works, or talk to a specialist who says, hey,
you can't have a murder without an autopsy report. It doesn't mean the autopsy report is going to be accurate or honest, but there will be a report to which that was my question to you, How easy is it to fix an autopsy report or to report something differently from what you actually find?
Well, if that, if if I were to receive that particular case, or any just anyone in this field, should I'll tell you what should be done. They're going to photograph the hell out of it. Right, So, even if the report maybe doesn't one hundred percent match. They could look at the pictures and be like an And that could happen time time, especially if someone is shot a bunch of times and there's multiple wounds to document, you
might miss one when you're writing it down. When we are taking when we're looking at a body on the table, we take notes, and oftentimes those notes get very bloody because we're using pens and touching organs, and the pens are bloody, the PaperWorks bloody. So then, like when I used to do it, I would put it in a biohazard bag that was clear, and then take it back to my desk and rewrite what I wrote. So sometimes, you know, there could just be a simple mistake as
far as that goes. But in a case like his, I feel like there would have been witnesses to see the autopsy, lots of documentation, just lots, and there's going to be from not only from the autopsy, but also from you know, he did go to the hospital and they did appear to do some intervention on him, so that would also be added, you know, correlated together to make sure that everyone's account And then of course we all saw the video, all of us, like everyone in the world.
Seventy five different angles. Yeah, and I think if people haven't been following along with this, there just are a lot of inconsistencies with what the public is being told and what now you're finding out, including the people who are going back and looking at Google trend searches and things that people searched before the incident, and how there was a spike in certain things and then all of a sudden that information was wiped, and how they're saying
this is a what do they call it? A thirty six rifle.
Something like that.
Clearly I'm not an expert of this, but there are a lot of gun experts who say a bullet from that specific rifle would cause so much more damage to a human body than what actually happened, and that they don't believe that what we saw was an entrance wound. They believe that was an exit wound. And now there are a lot of theories that, oh, it came from his lava leer mic. It was a very set up assassination of a person who people wanted to be silenced
for a lot of different reasons. So I'm fascinated by this. I'm fascinated by how everything has played out since and how little we've heard about or from the actual suspect, who Again, I don't think any of us really believe that this person did it, but it's just it's a wild, wild ride, and it's one of those things where I wonder, are we ever going to get the truth here? You guys have to have some cases like that where you feel the same way too, well.
I mean like JFK is the first, right, Yeah, perfect example of forensic experts going back and looking at it and being like, yeah, no, there's no way. And I agree. I mean, you know, my brother has a weapon similar to that that he uses for hunting, and I was really asking him like, what's the purpose of this, and it's just like, the purpose is that you have a moving target, you have one chance, and it's to cause a lot of disruption inside of the body to make sure that they're down.
And talking about big animals, yeah, not a small not exactly. Yeah.
So you know, my expertise is more in pathology rather than gunshot wounds. So I don't want to say I personally, just the things that I've seen during my training and everything, I've seen a lot of injuries by that type of a weapon. And they're a lot they're a lot more
gruesome than that particular one was. I mean, obviously he died, so it did what it was supposed to do in a sense, but there's just lots of different theories that that could be an exit wound, and you're just getting different reporting, I mean from a couple legitimate sources I guess you would consider legitimate news. Like some people were saying he was wearing a bulletproofess, some people were saying he wasn't. That could change things because the bullet could
ricochet off of that and things like that. So we don't have like any documentation except to hearsay at this point. Even some of the interviews like his friends have done afterwards, you could kind of get a series of like he was in the car and they were saying there was a chance that they would restored a pulse and all
of that. But like when I saw that video, it was very jarring because I knew he was dead, right, Yeah, So it's just this is just going to be the way life is from now on with every single thing that happens as far because anytime something goes on social media, you just have people that are experts in every single field. I just saw this cool video. Actually, I'll send it
to you if I could find it. But this guy had the same as that gun, and he was a firearms expert, and he had put it together with this little key they said he used that. He took it apart and was showing how long it took to do it and how big it was and how you couldn't like jump off the side of the building with it in your pants and all of this stuff. And you're just looking at that, and that guy's not involved in
the case. But when you look at him doing it, you're like, well, there is there another way to do it? Or is like this it and that was not possible? So it does you do listen to people and you're like, oh shit, like maybe maybe this is this is not how they're telling us. And honestly, like they have a history of this. I don't know who they is necessarily,
but the government with JFK. You know what's funny. My husband and my kids we took a road trip and we drove through Dallas because I wanted to see the sixth floor of the of the book. Yeah, I always mess this up because my father in law always calls it the depository or the depository. You got it right, Yeah, I got it right. And then I'm like, I keep telling them I'm gonna kill you because you're gonna make
me slip one day. But yeah, So they have a museum on the sixth floor there where Oswald was supposed to be when he shot him. And I thought it was really bizarre because the whole corner of that building where he was standing at that window was blocked off with a large piece of plexiglass and nobody was allowed to go near it, right, and I'll.
Actually get a good view of what his view would be exactly Deally Plaza.
Ridiculous, Yes, And you're just like, there's a reason for that, because they know that people that are experts are gonna go up there and take pictures and measurements and optics or whatever they're gonna do and be like, yeah, no, that didn't happen.
Yeah, And even they say the way that the Secret Service reacted to it at the time, slowing down after they thought there was a threat versus speeding up. I mean there are people you guys went there obviously. My
parents used to live in Dallas. Oh, my dad took me, and he was just all over the place loved this, and he was talking about how there were so many discrepancies and now there are all these people on that area, in that area who will show you kind of what you were saying, like trajectories of actually he was hit by more than one bullet from more than one angle. Then they slowed down to sort of let it happen,
and then they sped off. It was just wild and then of course conveniently leave Harvey Oswald is killed before.
He got talk, which was which was so outrageous, right, Like, you have the most wanted man right now in custody and you're just like letting him walk around like that. You just can't even believe this stuff is true. But see, but.
Like people are saying, Tyler Robinson could be.
It's yeah exactly. But even think about the jewel heist that just happened, Jake, You're just like, this is still happening that You're just like, how is this possible that that, in twenty twenty five, with such things that should be protected, that somebody was able to just go get it right.
It didn't seem that sophisticated at the Louver, No, it was just you know, it seemed very amateur hour, but they were able to get all these priceless jewels. You know, they immediately took all the jewels out and sold them off. They're already gone. It's not the same as trying to move artwork.
Yeah, and I mean a lot of people are saying this hints at an inside job with the because it was such a cake walking broad daylight. Yeah, so ridiculous. There are other cases that we wanted to talk about too, and one of them, well, actually, what did you guys what cases have been on your minds lately?
But what have we been covering the most recently?
Well, we listen. We I don't know what happened last week that Sylvia Brown the psychic has been making the rounds on social media. Still alive, No, she's dead.
Well, she's an internet sensation as of last week. I woke up one morning she had sent me twelve videos of horrible things she was saying people, and then Etel did a skin of her that weekend.
It was so weird. So I was like, oh, we gotta we gotta dig into this because it's like you're around my age, right, So it's like that just it reminds me of you know, you get home from school and it was on at that weird like three o'clock hour that nobody's really home except moms or something, you know what I mean, Like only certain people were seeing that, and now you look at it and you're like, this lady was so outrageous the stuff she was saying, like
the mental harm she was probably causing on people. Like there was a woman that was saying that she was having problems struggling with fertility, and she was like, well, I ever have my own child and she's like no, Well what about Like it's so messed up, and you're like, that's terrible.
What if just what if she really is psychic and she really did get that information was just passing it on because she was very like blunt about a lot of things, ridicular death those I sure didn't I think that's right said.
And then she was gaslighting a woman whose husband died in nine to eleven that he actually drowned and she's like, no, he was a firefighter. At nine to eleven. She co going, no, he drowned.
She's like, I keep seeing him in water. And then she was like maybe it was the hose and I was like, yeah, it's the first reported fire, you know, drowning from a fire hose hose.
Oh lord.
But by the way, that the cause of death in those cases was like a blunt trauma building collapse, not like was there fires being put out? Really, I'm sure there were, but like we all saw what happened, right, So.
And then we have the case. Do you know about the fake pregnancy scandal that's taking over TikTok right now?
I don't, but Diamond is nodding her head, yes, So please and for me.
This girl named Kia Cousins allegedly faked her well, not even allegedly. There's a bunch of videos and stuff. She faked a pregnancy by wearing a fake belly. She was giving her family ultrasound pictures, videos of the baby kicking. She even said the baby had a heart defect that won doctor's appointment. So then all of a sudden, she gets mad at the baby's father and decides he's not going to be in the hospital room when she gives birth.
So I said, red flag right there, because even if you really don't want your partner in there or whatever, somebody's gonna come visit you at the hospital.
So she has this.
Baby allegedly, and then her it comes time for her family to beat it and they're holding this child and they're like, oh, the baby's cold, it's not moving, it's not breathing.
It was a doll.
Oh God, thank god. I thought, okay, okay, So she is clearly unwell mentally, yes, right, what where did this come from? What did she think she was gonna be able to pull off with all of this? Like, we just does nobody know that you're pregnant? If your face, I guess, if you're not that close and people aren't touching you, what do I know?
To me?
Though?
I saw a video from her baby shower and you can see the strap of the fake belly and saying, why is nobody questioning this?
Because it's weird?
And then you like this is remember this.
Girl a couple months ago lake and Snelling. Her name was she was a cheerleader at a university who gave birth and put the baby in a closet, and the baby was found dead in a bag in her closet. So when when you go back and look at pictures that she was posting on social media, any person in the world she was a cheerleader. You could tell that her body was cheerleader. It wasn't like, you know, my
she had a cheerleader body. And then all of a sudden she she looked pregnant, like a pregnant person, and no one around her said anything, but like, I'm pretty sure everybody thought they thought it. It's just like there's certain things you just don't say out left right right. One of them is like, is that bump fake? One of them is are you pregnant if you're just fat?
Right? Like?
So I think that that's what it had to do with, like people saw it, but they just.
It's the same with cancer fakers too, write cancer fakers. Yeah, a lot of people do it, but it's one thing you're never gonna doubt that somebody actually, would you know, have an illness like that or go to the lengths and make something up, because if you did, you're really horrible person. Then people don't want to accept that. So I think it's kind of the same thing. One of her friends was saying she was a pathological liar and she suspected it was fake, but nobody wanted to say anything.
They didn't want to be that person.
Did you guys. Ever watch the documentary. I'm looking up exactly what the girl's name was.
Mel Lanson.
No, oh yeah, Bel Gibson, Yes, yes, the worst influencer in the world. He told everyone she had brain cancer, and it just floated through so many different and balances where it should have been stopped, including Apple. They gave her a whole app at the app store because she told everyone she ate her way and lived a healthy lifestyle and somehow got out of brain cancer. And it took one of her friends being like, I don't know, man, where'd you go to the hospital? Like, which hospital did
you go to? Yes, who's your doctor? She's out here saying doctor Phil and that was it. And then they start asking specialists while you know, if she said it's in her spleen from her brain, and as you would know, Nicole, yeah, no, that's not really something that apparently happens. And if it has gotten that far in any way, whichever direction it was traveling, you would be riddled and nearly dead if it got that far right, but it doesn't even happen that way.
Well, I wonder if they have any confirmed people that have died after using her method, since she swore it worked and cured her.
That's what I That was the whole thing that we were talking about too, because how irresponsible, yes, for everyone to just take somebody's word and go with it.
She was a pretty good businesswoman actually, but maybe she just you know, was inspired by a different idea, had a different story behind her business. I think she still could have been very successful and some front, but instead she just went on this crazy path of lying her whole life.
I actually know someone through someone who faked cancer, and that person, the middle person was messaging me and asking me questions because she started suspecting it. And then when she was asking me, I was like, Yeah, that's not how that would go down. No, No, there's one thing.
If you're trying to, you know, be like I got all these tests and they're thinking it's cancer. Right to tell people that, but to actually commit to it, put a fake porthole, do all this other stuff. It's horrible.
I think it brings us back to a conversation that we were sort of talking about off the air, which is something Diamond and I talked about in a podcast not long ago. Mental health issues are very real, yeah, and we need to pay attention to them. But that absolve people from also being assholes. Yeah, these are two separate things that can exist at the same time. Kanye West can be very mentally ill and also were he
completely healthy, still be an asshole. Yeah, And some people might argue that about Britney Spears or whomever.
You know.
It's an interesting take. And I think people are so careful now about not wanting to offend anybody when it comes to mental health, because you don't you don't want to alienate people, and you don't want to create this stigma around it. But we also can't just give everyone a pass because they claim that they have a mental health issue. That's not fair.
No, And I think there's I mean, we talked about a case on our episode is that coming out today or yeah this week about a teenager who killed his mom's boyfriend, but not only killed this guy, cut his head off, scooped his brains out, put it in a blender. Oh,
and then you think like, oh my god. And he was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was a teenager, an early thirteen year old, and the mom had him on treatment this whole time, and he was doing okay, but then he turned eighteen and she had no control anymore. She said that the doctor had changed his medications, and then he hasn't been right since, and she is totally out of control of his medical treatment. And then he
goes and does something like this. And we talk about the case that just happened in August with the Irena woman who was on the train, which almost had an exact thing. That that guy had schizophrenia. His mom again was involved and getting him treatment and trying, but like ultimately these people grow up and become adults and then
there's no one in charge. So in cases like that, like this guy that I'm talking about that just happened in New York, when he went to the hospital, he thought he was in a fight with someone, like he didn't even realize what happened. He was covered in this guy's blood and like he's out of his mind right. So that is like a severe mental illness. You see it walking around the streets here, I'm sure, just like people talking to themselves. And if you've ever seen these
simulations of people who are having hallucinations, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying to think that you're seeing things and hearing things when you're trying to like walk down the street and just be in reality. So you could almost kind of I don't want to say justified.
But like.
They're not treated they're not treated well. But then like Brittany, but.
We kind of you know, the conversation we have when we were talking about Britney Spears is do you draw the line at well personally? This where I draw my line somebody that can function in society versus not. So you could have somebody like a schizophrenic person in the story you were just saying that that person can drive, they can't pay their bills, they can't cook for themselves,
and they have a mental illness. But then you have people with narcissism that are going to work every day and functioning normally, but they have a personality disorder too. So I think a large part of that is people that are genuinely so out of their minds that they can't function day to day as a human And I think maybe that's where we should look at it. That's just my personal thoughts on it. But what do you feel about it?
And which way? What do I feel about what?
Like, just like the lines with forgiving people because they have an illness that can't be treated.
Everyone has everyone. Yeah, really if you do, you watch videos of like you have a d D, you have autism? Sure like everybody couldn't be given something so so that and and then the personality disorders you have narcissistic? Uh what about antisocial and stuff like that, like because they're seen in people who are serial killers.
Yeah, yeah, like cool shooters.
Yeah exactly.
So I would personally, I would draw the line at and it doesn't matter what my line is because I'm not making any type of legislation, But I would say my line is, are you a threat to me? Are you a threat to other people? If you are just a person who talks to yourself and walks down the street and you don't want to take your meds, and that's that, and maybe you won't function in society, but
you're also not gonna hurt anybody. That's one thing. If you are a threat to me showing up at my door in the middle of the night with a knife, yeah, that's where I draw the line. You don't get to just have a pass because maybe you're not well in the head, because now your illness could affect me and could affect people that I care about. That's my line.
I think that what about in more social situations? So like Kanye and Britney spearits were not talking about like them physically assaulting a person. It's more just social and family relations. And I mean, if you sit there and think about every dad that's ever been a deadbeat and a jerk and left his family, you could be like, Okay, that guy's had some mental health is so that doesn't excuse it.
I don't excuse either of them, honestly, and to be fair, who am I to excuse anyone? Like I said, nobody cares about my opinion. But I think it's going to be well, thank you. I think this is going to be a very unpopular opinion. I think Brittany is more dangerous than Kanye. I think that Kanye is clearly a loose cannon and the man is popping off. We haven't heard any reports of him being violent. Am I wrong? Have we heard reports of him being violent?
I agree with you one hundred percent on that.
Yeah, he yells, he rants, he gives away Lamborghini's, and he fucks up his business deals. Okay, Britney, there are reports, whether they are substantiated or not, at this point, but there are reports numerous that in fact, she has been a little bit violent and has threatened violence, and that to me is scarier than someone just yelling like a lunatic on the subway.
Yeah, and I agree that I do think she's more dangerous. And I, oh, no, we need to get down this capital again, especially you and I. But this is saying on our show, just why you know. I can sit there and say, Kevin Federline is every right to write his own book and try to get money, and he was married to her, and he should get the child's wort because he is the father and he is raising
her kids and everything. But at the same time, she's so mentally unwell that it comes across his exploitation in a way. Because I'm seeing it as these kids grew up with this totally unstable mother in their life, and why just add fuel to the fire. They know how bad she is in the world knows how bad she is. We don't need to know she did cocaine and breast better kids. I think we could all assume she I want to know.
Also, like Kevin Federline hasn't had the best reputation this entire time, and like I was like, that dude seems I mean, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but from the appearances, it seems that he's a decent dude. Like he took his kids out of a situation that
that lady would be. Anybody if she lived in your neighborhood, you'd be like that bitch is whack, Like, don't let your kids near her, right, Like, he took them far away and like tried to raise them in a normal as normal of a life as possible.
We didn't see a lot or hear a lot from them when.
They're kids, and they were just they were just trying to be I mean, how can you possibly grow up normal in that situation? So I think that he wanted to be like, no, let me tell you what was really going down this whole time.
I just think when she talks badly about him, like I see it as like I don't accept what she says in some regard because of her condition. So I think a lot of people are defending it as he's coming out defending himself, and I understand that, and he has a right to do that. I'm just saying I don't really agree with the way in which he's going about it.
Okay, I can understand that. I just I think in all of this he has been pretty quiet, and he did take those kids and go away and raise them and was fairly quiet for a very long time. And I think in a very interesting way, there are some gender biases here, because if Brittany was the dad Kevin was the mom, everyone would be applauding him and saying like, yes, girls, speak your truth, like tell us what's going on, and they would have I mean, Nicole to your point too.
If that was the dad that lived in the neighborhood, everyone would be like, that guy should not have custody of these kids. This dude is a loose cannon. But I think because it's a very beloved pop star and it's a woman versus a man, there are some differences there that people are just sort of overlooking. Oh yeah, it's it's a wild thing that's happening in all this. Everybody was so quick to say free Brittany, and then when she was free, it was not who's taking care
of her? All the people who were yelling at they're not there for her.
Yeah, and I do, I mean, listen, like I'm compassionate. I feel terrible for her. I feel like, yeah, they I mean, if you think about when that Baby One More Time video came out, she was sixteen, and they were just like making her like school girl like effable, right, Like that's what the vibe was.
Weird. It's so weird.
Like it's just weird, and and like she blew up so much, and and then it's like she got pregnant and had these kids and then like went back out on stage and her body wasn't that like weirdly flat belly I've never had in my whole life, by the way, but but like that inverted like she looked like, okay, she don't have organs. Yeah, yeah, she had that look before.
And then everybody she never got quite where she was before that, And how do you like, it's a lot for a young person to go through, and then on top of that, you're dealing with possibly just like postpartum depression, which people get, and the whole and then you're doing drugs on top of it, which isn't how if you are doing drugs, but I and everybody around her is using her because of her commodity. It's it's terrible, but she like, that's not these boys' fault.
No, it's not. The whole thing is. It's very sad. It's a sad situation, all of it. And I, like I said, I'm not an expert. My opinion doesn't really matter. I just think it's very interesting to watch how all of these things unfold, the differences that people kind of assign to certain things.
And if you want to go back to Kanye for example, like so let's say he's just like a normal dude living with mental illness, he could have been like totally fine, like as if he was like a commoner like us, Right, Yeah, But like, I mean, he's got some points as far as that family goes as far in my opinion, like they don't live like normal people. They have this very anti man thing going on over there that they don't seem to really respect a man's role in life. I personally feel that way.
I don't watch it, so I can't weigh in on that. I don't know.
I don't.
I just think that there's it's a lot of like we don't need you here kind of a vibe, and I feel like it's just I don't know, they did it to they did it to Chris Jenner like or Caitlyn Jenner. I just got that vibe when I did watch it when I was younger, that he was just and they're along for the ride and they.
You're the sperm downer. We run the show.
Yeah, And and like I think that the sexualization thing and the kid, like that kid is my daughter's age exactly. They were born within a couple months of each other in Northwest. Okay, that kid has a phone. My daughter doesn't have a phone. The kid's on TikTok doing videos. It's just like like you're you're putting this kid out there that's not ready to handle what's about to come with that. People call her fat, like she doesn't even need that in her life. So and then they're divorced,
so he has no control over any of it. And I and I do think that from multiple father's perspectives that when they're watching their kid get raised from afar, that that is, you know, a point of stress. All I'm trying to say is like that is inducing his his mental condition further, like those kinds of triggers, I would say.
So, this is interesting that we're talking about this in this episode right now, because last week on my podcast, I had a guy named Nico balasteroson who did six years with Kanye West, and all he did was film. He created this documentary from three thousand hours of footage. He boiled it down to like an hour and forty four minutes, and in it you see some very interesting things, some really sad things. But I got almost the opposite impression of Kim Kardashian and how she was treating Kanye
and Diamond. You do watch the show, right, Do you have something to say about this and how they treat men and how because I can't speak on it, but I can't speak on his Nico Nico in a second, So what are your thoughts.
My thoughts on Caitlyn Jenner at the time, I think that he kind of gave up his I guess male role in his relationship with Chris early on, Like she was his manager and she was the reason why he was making money at that point because she was booking him all of his like speaking engagements, which they said was their main income as a family. And I think he kind of like you could see that he was defeated.
He didn't really like she ran the show, but also like she was his boss technically too, So I feel like that could have been the reason why.
Yeah, and in that case, you know what I mean. Yeah, And she was going through all the gender stuff, like there was a lot of stuff going on too, Like I don't know, I just I don't. It just seems like there's a lot of like you don't see like every one of them has kids. The dad's not around, you know what I mean. Like, it's just it's just something that I've taken note of and like, listen half of couple's break up and this and that, so that's
what's going on. But it's just kind of it's just interesting to me to look at.
It's definitely, I mean, I know people talk about it all the time. They always say the Kardashians are man ruiners. Oh my gosh, look at what they've done to these guys, And they do seem to not have the fathers around in a lot of this. But in this documentary that this guy Nico did, I saw a very different version of Kim Kardashian than anything I expected. And and I'm saying that again from not watching the show, kind of
only gleaning a little bits from pop culture. She was very patient with him, and she was very loving toward him, and when he would be freaking out and doing his you know, very crazy little having his episodes in his spirals, she would try her hardest to calm him down, to try and talk to him sensibly, and to work with him going through all of this, and it seemed like, not seemed like what her final straw was when he started going off and talking about how she wanted to
have an abortion with North, and that's when Kim was finally like, you know what this is it, I'm not going to take this abuse anymore from you verbally, I'm not going to deal with this anymore. And I was very surprised by that because it seemed to me I had the same impression as you about the whole family and from not really watching. If you guys watched it more, you would have a better grasp on it. But I
think they are interesting. It's an interesting group of people over there, and it is maybe that they are man ruiners, or maybe that they're just bad at choosing people to be in their lives as father figures, because from what we know about Chloe Diamond, correct me if I'm wrong, she's a lover girl, and she's been cheated on by like every single dude who came around. But that father
is still in the picture. Even though he did her dirty, she still has him come over tuck them in, like they're very much raising those kids together.
So I don't know, I don't think they're man ruiners necessarily. I think they have a very particular vision for their family, and it's kind of like you're not fitting the mold. So if you're not going to go along with the program, then you got to get the fuck out.
I aspire to be that way.
It could also be like men. Men sometimes can be very intimidated by women that are more successful than them, very much so. So I mean there's definitely I mean, the Kanye West thing's interesting because he's not some rando basketball player that nobody ever heard of, like he was a really big deal very much So, I don't know, and I do I think that his I mean, some of his rants online are clear of some kind of underlying psychological issue. I don't I mean, like there's something
going on there for sure, But I'm just thinking. I just think that with all of with all, it's Brittany too, it's any famous person like the I can't imagine. Like I was using this as an example. We went to crime Con a couple of weeks ago, right, so it's it's awesome, right, It's really awesome. But like when I'm a regular person on the street walking around, like nobody knows who I am. But then if I go to crime Con, it's like every a lot of people there know who I am, and I get stopped. Can we
take a picture? Can can you sign this?
Can you?
And I love it? It's great, right, But like I was thinking, if I had that every single day of my life when I left the house, it would be a lot for your life.
Just you have to move.
You can't live where you live. You can't go to the store, you can't just go to Wawah and get a hookie, right, like right, So putting that pressure on it because like I've like I got my own mental stuff going on, and I'm just like putting pressure like that on top of somebody that's already struggling is a recipe for disaster, you know it is.
I think it's a really interesting commentary on us as a culture and how we consume things and what we expect of the people we're consuming it from and sort of this parasocial relationship people build. I'm sure you guys watched Monster the ed Geen story.
So we had covered that case a couple of years ago. One was it when we covered cannibals?
Yeah, we did it. We did a whole entire Thanksgiving.
I started the show, I saw it was taking a lot of artistic liberties.
So yeah, I kind of pulled it back.
But I really like the Monster series. I loved the Dahmer series. I really like the Menendas one. I just think this one was going a little too far. This story is already so incredibly disturbing. I don't think we need to make it even worse.
Wait, so what do you mean artistic? Like they're just making it more extra than it needs to be.
Or there were a lot of because I went down the rabbit hole on this and looked up like what was true and what was not, and there was just a lot of creative license that they used to one sort of assign him intention and motive behind what he did when he wasn't very clear about why he did what he did. There is controversy about whether or not he ever did dress as a woman period, and if that was part of what led him to this path,
his weird relationship with his mom. Yeah, and the entire storyline with Adeline was inaccurate because there's a conflicting report of whether or not they even had a relationship, because she said initially yeah, we had an on and off again relationship for twenty years, and then immediately came out and said no, I made that up because she was a bit off as well. So there's just a lot of like filling in the blanks that I don't necessarily think he Ryan Murphy or whoever the care was that
wrote all of this. It's not based in fact, where I think a lot of the other stuff was more factual. This seems more like half fantasy, half truth, and like a fan fiction version of what happened.
Yeah, I understand that.
But the thing that was crazy to me about it and what really made me take a step back, was up until him, because I didn't realize he was the inspiration behind Psycho and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the Hannibal Electer, Buffalo Bill, there were a lot of things that he was the inspiration for, and until him, it was always ghosts and monsters and goblins. It was like Frankenstein and Dracula,
that's what people were afraid of. And then came along a human that was very terrifying, more terrifying than a monster, and people couldn't get enough of it. And look how it changed just the version of culture that we take in Now. Monsters are scary, but people are way scarier, and we like kind of glorify it.
Well, this is so on point for right now. So we just wrote an article about the evolution of Halloween and it was really interesting to see. Like, I mean, when I was a kid, we had jack o' lantern's and like a Frankenstein thing to hang up on the wall. And now people's displays outside are like full on re enactments of murder scenes to the point where police are showing up and thinking that someone was killed.
And we're just like ha ha yay, and I want candy too.
Yeah.
Very bizarre, right, so.
Weird, and it's like we're we're literally celebrating celebrating murder one day a year. I mean, I went to the you know, the big Halloween store with my kids and there's a whole aisle of knives covered in blood and I'm just like, oh, I wonder how the Coburger's victims' families feel about seeing this when they go to target or something, and it's like, oh, it's okay, this is okay, just one day a year. The rest of the day,
we were just at that oddities thing. I saw a little kid just as Michael Mike well Myer's holding a knife. Had to be four five.
See, that's the stuff. II have nightmares.
But like if you saw a child walking around with a fake knife, it's and why are fake knives? Okay? Fake on's totally taboo, but like fake knives totally cool. Like it's it's getting weird.
Getting weird out there, right, It's very weird because Halloween started as this festival in Ireland to celebrate the end of the harvest season going into winter, and they thought there was this you know, dulled barrier between the other world and they would dance around a fire pit to try to scare off spirits. And then obviously with the Irish potato fam and they had a mass migration over here into Canada and everything, and Halloween started coming over here.
And then they kind of pinpointed around the seventies when the movie Halloween came out that's when our culture started shifting into this ultra obsession with just gory things, scary things and.
Killing women who are slunning.
Yes, it was.
It's just that's how it just, you know, for hundreds of years, was one thing and just very quickly shifted into another.
I think, kind of on the same topic. I was just in Salem, Massachusetts, and I lived in Boston for a while, so I've been there a few times, and it's really bizarre how people flock to this area where they killed witches. They didn't kill witches. They killed women who were just accused of being maybe smart or having
a little too much SaaS. They just killed them. And now once a year people come down to Salem or up, I should say, from here up to Salem and mass to go and see where these women died in these ridiculously brutal ways for no reason. And it's not a weird thing to people. It's just like, oh, yeah, take me on that tour. I want to see where each one of them died. Bizarro.
Yeah, and horrific. That's where most of them sat on fire, crushed by stones. Yes, horrific.
It is just like what's happening is weird. The costumes are weird, like little kids dressed up as Jeffrey Dahmer.
Like, I think we've transitioned into this period where people think it's cool to die.
Not me, I'm talking a lot. I think you're right, though.
I do think there's a lot of weird glorification of things now that wasn't necessarily there before. And how did we get here as a society?
Where did this?
Where do you guys think it came from?
You should see. I gotta show you pictures of some of these Halloween displays. This one person has a wood chipper on their lawn with like a leg sticking out of it and blood squirting out of it. Actively sane people smeared across, like a guy looking like he was climbing up a ladder, fell like smeared all over. There's a there's one with a man that's smashed up against a tree with an actual car that's dented up against it.
See.
I feel like when I was little, the most wild thing I would see would be the witch that looked like she smashed into the side of the house. Yes, like that was it and that was funny, ha ha, and that was it. You just kind of let it go. But now it's like yes, and then the displays like the things people are eating at the Halloween parties, it's like a brain and the salami is the guts of the stomach, you know, whatever else it's It is very strange.
I wonder if other countries look at us and they're like these crackheads.
No, they do because because like my members on the website, they write comments and they're just like, yeah, that it's not like that over here, Like no, it's it's just really it's just really interesting to watch and and just the think it's just okay, just this one time.
I just think people can't. Going back to what you were saying about ed Yan too, it's just people can't wrap their head around people doing these things, and that that's where the natural fascination comes. And then now with social media, when we could get every single detail possible about every single crime that occurs, it just has made
it so much worse. I mean, we go to crime con which is a true crime convention where they have up to eight thousand people going to hear about crimes and it's insane.
But it's all women too.
But crime comes very because there is a fine line of exploitation versus taste, you know, and it's very tasteful. It's very, very very because all of the speakers are people like either myself that do this as a profession, but just other professions forensic toxicologists, forensic investigators. I recently met the guy one of the men who were involved with the Boston marathon bombing and the investigation with that,
which I'm hoping to get on the show. But like people are, they're police and investigators and just coming out and talking about how they caught these people, like from a scientific perspective. And then you have the whole subset of people too that are victims, family that speak about their side of it, and lots of missing people. I mean, people were coming up to me just their daughter's been missing for twenty years and geat, like.
That has to get very heavy.
It just it's not it's it is they have a wall. That's one of the most horrible things for me to think, because death is final and missing is not final.
Right, You're just sitting with a pit this mother, Like I looked at.
This mother in her eyes and there was like something missing in her you know. Of course, it just broke my heart, Like I just I just can't wrap my head around.
That they had this wall there where you can put up information about a missing loved one, and last year they actually found I think two or three people oh wow for me on the wall.
So that's nice.
It's been an incredible resource to have and it really does help families. I think that's why we love going there so much, because you know there is the fine line, but when you're there, you never feel like anybody's being disrespectful or exploiting it. Everybody is there to try to help or because they're curious.
So is most of crime calm centered around murder and death or are there like jewelry heists and that kind of crime involved too.
They do other crimes. They have a lot of like cult activity. They had a firearms expert going over that Alex Baldwin shooting. That was interesting.
And then also what's up with that talk about that that this is like celebrities just living the most. He could have killed another person accidentally.
Like Hillary's on my top ten most annoying people that I ever see about.
In the first Hilary of Baldwin, I will not call Hilary okay, I think It's crazy that that no one, really nobody is seeing like she's still allowed to pull off that act.
Like I mean, I I'm not sure she is.
Because she got voted off Dancing with the Stars real quick.
People were like not taking it as a personal attack. I saw that she is being extra annoying about it. I did see that.
Yeah, the and I'm forty one, Like, what does I have to do with anythink you're a fraud? That's why nobody wants to watch.
But we had a question like do you think da she played that role to him? And he actually thought like believed her. And now he's like seven kids.
In This is a tough one. I don't know because I have very limited interaction with either of them. I did one panel discussion with him one time, and it was a wild time. It was the day after uh Trump won the election for the second time, and you know that Alec Baldwin very much goes in the other direction from that. Yeah, so he looked like he had been up for one hundred and seventy two hours. Oh, he was very tired and he was enraged. I don't
think I got the best example. Yeah, I would say that is, but the example I did get one hundred percent shore that he lives in reality, So I don't know that he ever cared to like investigate. He was probably just like, this is a character, and I like this character. Yes, yeah, I don't know. There's it was wild.
The comedian Heather McDonald always says on her show she has a really good point that at the time they met, thirty rock was going on and he had been with Selma Hayek and the show, and he had expressed interest publicly in Spanish women.
So she she thinks I'll be that.
Yes, she thinks she was influenced by the character on the show and just kind of came up to him and played it off, and he's exactly like, I don't give a shit, you're hot. We could get married. I don't care where you went to high school, and.
Here we are.
Yeah, I don't, I don't know, but we've It's funny that this is at least the second time Hilaria Baldwin Hillary as you call her uh has been addressed on this show, because we had Crystal Mine Crystal Kong Minkoff and and she was just dying about how Hilaria and the Cucumber video is one of her favorite things of all time. Yeah, it's so good, And I think this is something that like women really only care about and
know about. Oh yeah, I don't know a ton of guys who if you said who she is, would know or know any of this background about her. But women are fascinated by it. It's kind of hilarious.
Because you think about think about doing that in real life.
I think about all the time.
It's so outrageous, right, you know, I was just thinking I loved what was that movie? Alcohol one was in that we used to watch a bunch, the one, the one with U who was in it, like Meryl Street?
Oh, Nancy Myers. What is it called? The one where that you know, where they're divorced.
It just came out.
Oh it's complicated.
Y oh, okay, that's a great movie.
So, like social media is ruined or just the way things are right now are ruining things for actors and actresses because I just don't really care to know about your crazy ass life and your and you're weird shit. Like if this was back and then in like the nineteen fifties or something with like you know, do you.
Think people knew all about Carrie Grant's innerword.
But there's like a little mystery and you just watch them and you love them on the screen and that's it. And now it's like I get turned off by certain people because I'm like, ew, I don't really want to know you like that, Like, now we.
Have to make decisions we didn't have to make. I mean, none of us were alive back then. But I don't think they had to make the decision to separate the art from the artists, because an artist was just an artist, whereas now you were like, or I should say, the art was just the art. Now you have a really great singer and then you find out that like maybe they killed chickens in their closet for fun, and you're like, well, damn, but I really liked that song. Now can I not like that song?
You know?
We see that with Diddy, with R Kelly, with a lot of these people right now that it's like, well, I do sometimes wish we didn't have as much information. However, Guiltily, when I hear some things, I'm like, give me more of that. That's crazy.
But yeah, like.
Like Michael Jackson, that's a good example actually, because I feel like when I was a kid. I was like obsessed with Michael Jackson from the time, like I had Thriller on a Fisher Price like record player. Nice, right, Okay, And then these accusations came out and then they were out and they kind of went away, and you're just kind of like, yeah, it's probably not true. They just want him for money. But then it's like, so then I liked him, and then it's like you watch The
Neverland that what was it called finding? And then I was like, whoa, this is this really? Is this true? Is this what was happening? And just even some of the stuff that's definitely true about the him sending the faxes to the kid and stuff like even if he didn't do anything, I just think that that is really bizarre behavior for a grown like a grown man.
I mean we saw the things we saw him do. We're bizarre behavior for a grown man. Doug getting a baby over the balcony, being super besties with like that little chimpanzee that you have the voice and general the way he has to speak. There was a lot that was clearly I mean red flag after red flag, but people just wanted the art, yeah, and they didn't want to think about who the artist behind it was and
what they were doing. And by the way, I realized we were really talking a little inside baseball with Hilaria Baldwin or as you call her Hillary for people who don't know. She is married to Alec Baldwin. She is significantly younger than him. They got together and immediately just started popping out, kid after kid after kid. They are up to seven is it seven?
Now?
They're up to seven? He had kids before, so I think he's like the father of ten or something like that. And she always spoke with this accent, like a tiny bit of a Spanish accent. And there are videos of her doing, you know, a cooking demonstration where she's talking about a cucumber and she's like, in how you say in English cucumber, and then it comes out there. She was born and raised in Boston, so everybody was like, the fuck, what is this.
I'm not calling her Hilario because it's not her name. Her legal name is Hillary.
Didn't they name one of their kids Hilaria, yess whatever.
One of the kid's name is Ilaria.
Diamond is over here chuckling.
It's so pathological, right.
The funny thing, though, is that Alec Baldwin's other daughter from with Kim Besinger Ireland Baldwin. I think she's the most wonderful stepmother in the world.
And you know what, maybe she is. Maybe because we only get little pieces, maybe we're all wrong and she's just this goofy, quirky person who got a little too far. But in reality she's just the nicest, you know, most down to earth, misunderstood person.
I don't know.
Did you ever hear the voicemail he left Ireland by.
The way, Oh yeah, you've rude, vile, a little pig.
Yeah she was, I think she was. Have you ever heard this?
She was like twelve?
Imagine are you believing Lillian that voy.
No, I really can't listen.
I had immigrant parents, liked perc like like they would do that to me now for sure. One of the other things that we were talking about, which I'm fascinated by, and Nicole you said you think that it's gonna be maybe an unpopular or viewpoint that you have on it, is the case of Ellen Greenberg. And you guys are from Pennsylvania. This happened in Pennsylvania. Before we get into it, describe what happened here, like what the case is about.
So in twenty eleven, it was Saint Maria. By the way, Oh okay, I feel like I know more of this, or when we do the podcast, I usually do the details.
Then she goes yeah, and I'm like, this is Maria's Yes, She's like, what year was that?
Where did it happen? Okay? So twenty eleven, it was a snow day, everybody sent home from work and this woman, Ellen Greenberg, she was a school teacher. She goes home, she's in her house with her in her apartment with her fiance, and the fiance goes, I'm going to the gym in the building. He comes back a little bit later. The door is locked, he can't get in. He kicks it down. He finds her with all these stab wounds and a knife sticking out of her chest. So I
guess for the controversy. She comes in as she was brought to the Medical exam office, and they originally declared her death a homicide, but then a couple of weeks later switched it to a suicide, which is extremely unusual. And then recent reports have come out that or they recently reevaluated the case and have decided it's still a suicide, but her parents have been in court trying to get her manner of death switched to undetermined at the very
least or back to homicide. Four years. They are fighting for justice for her because the investigation was so botched and they just really don't know what happened. But you could speak more to that.
Well, can I ask one question about this sure? Because she wasn't just it wasn't just like twenty some stab wounds to the front of her body. It was stab wounds to the back of her body, her head, her neck, like all over places where if you somehow were able to do that to yourself, there was probably like a psychotic break or something else happening. Yeah, but they didn't necessarily have a ton of information to support that something like that would have happened, right.
Well, it I didn't see the docum memory, so I can't say, okay, and I really should watch it because I want to see, because I think that there there's possibly a little bit of a spin on it, because you know, whenever you make it, Yeah, when you when when you want something to be your way, you're going to do that. And I agree the whole situation is weird for murder. I would say women women killing them themselves is less anyway, just suicides are less in females anyway.
But then to stab yourself to death, it's there's not many reported cases of it. Although side note, I was just talking to people that I know that work in another office that said they've been seeing an increasing number of suicides that are weird and lots of people who are stabbing themselves to death. So it's not un it's not impossible, it's just very uncommon. And so especially for a woman to do something like that statistically is just not very common.
So this is your your take, based solely on data, solely on data.
Then I personally don't by all accounts, she had a good relationship with this guy. There was no history of anything abnormal. But like, I don't really think that she had a great relationship with him, because she had called her parents prior to this happening saying that she wanted to move home because she was stressed out or something with her teaching job. And I find that very bizarre when you're when you have a living boyfriend and you're
in a good relationship. They were engaged, like setting out wedding invitations like almost there. I find that to be a little bit of weird behavior that you would want to go home with your parents. I think the only thing that would make you want to go home with your parent house wasn't good in your current That's my I mean, I could speak from really like why boyfriends and lived? Why else would you want to leave because
you were having a hard time with something else? It's she was almost thirty, It's it's a little unusual.
There are so many questions about this, and I think for me, the biggest question in all of it was he did have to kick down the door, not just because it was locked, but the dead bolt inside, like the chain was on from the inside as well. So how do people explain that? Like what happened here? Again, maybe we'll never know what. I'm interested in your takes.
There's just theories floating around that that building in particular had a problem with that if you slammed the door too hard, it would kind of just go. So I heard that recently. I mean we watched YouTube videos where like you can very easily kind of get in through those things.
Yeah, and like and like, so you know, my husband's a firefighter and he breaks into houses sometimes because he has to for a fire. And I showed it to him and he was just like that it doesn't to him, it didn't look like he thought that if the door was busted open, that that that chain would have been ripped off that wall, that it wouldn't have been like pulled out a little bit, you know what I mean. So that he's just like, that's not it wouldn't look like that.
So, I mean, he sees a discrepancy on even the reporting that the chain was.
Actually no, there's pictures of it, but the chain is only partially pulled out of the wood. It's not like ripped like you would think if you actually had the bust open the door, the thing would rip out, you know what I mean, out of the wood because it's going across. It just wouldn't be like slightly. It's almost something you could do if you had the chain locked and you pushed the door a bunch of times and it didn't it like messed the wood up, but didn't fully pull it off of the wood.
So then, in your best opinion, with the information that you guys have, what do you think happened?
I go back and forth because there's other strong things like did you hear the nine one one call? Did they play that in the documentary?
I was only kind of half watching. It was weird, okay, Like he he went and most likely said she stabbed herself or she fell on a knife or thing.
It fell on her knife, he said, which was weird. But he's also like looking around, I don't know what's wrong. And then oh, she stabbed herself. There's a knife in her chest. And I'm just kind of like you think about let's say you walked in here, for example, and Elvis was on the Well, use Elvis as an example. He's on the floor, dead and bloody, okay, and there's a knife in his chest. Are you gonna be like he stabbed himself. No, you're gonna be like, holy shit, somebody just killed him.
I would immediately look at Timon and be like, how are you.
Yes.
My theory is that a lot of the coverage of this case is very biased, and they don't talk a lot about her mental health history. She was on and off a lot of psychiatric medicine.
Yeah, that's what That's what I was asking earlier.
And I'm wondering if subconsciously he said that because she had made suicidal threats in the past, so that's automatically where his mind went to.
I'm not saying that, No, that's that's in the differential, Marius.
Yeah, I'm not saying that makes him innocent. But at the same time, it's important to note this guy has never been arrested or even considered a suspect in this crime.
So let's talk about her psychistory a little. So when she made that call to her parents, her dad was like, you can come home, but I want you to see a psychiatrist first, And she went to a psychiatrist three times in one week. I'm sorry, but like, that's weird to me. When do you ever unless you're having a crisis, right, So.
Maybe she wasn't. Maybe that was also the kind of catalyst I want to move home exactly.
She was first put on Zoloft, which is known to take a couple of weeks to kick in. Within three days, her anxiety was so bad that in the sleep, not sleeping and stuff, that they gave her a Xanax. Then they gave her ambient. This all happened in the course of two weeks. She was on Zoloft, xanax ambient like it could have just been a dangerous combination of drugs.
You know, you put someone on zoloft, like they tell you to wean on those drugs, and wean off those drugs for a reason because it messes with the chemicals in your brain. So there's a potential. Like I don't know, because I did. I have asked this question several times.
Have they done.
Have they consulted any psychiatrists to see if this particular combination of drug can lead to an acute psychotic event? Like because she was sitting there at the kitchen cutting fruit and then all of a sudden, if it is true that she killed herself, something snapped and she just started stabbing herself. There there were no accounts that well, I don't want to say no, but that particular day when she left school during the snowstorm, she filled her
tank of gas. Like, if you know you're going home to kill yourself, why would you get a full tank of gas? Certain things like that, Why would you be cutting fruit, like you're making yourself a salad for a fruit salad?
Right?
But then, I mean, I don't know. I just think that they looked at her history and they found these
searches on her computer. But talk about the the botch part of the police investigation, which is there was there was a loss of So whenever you're doing a crime investigation, you have what's called like there's a chain of custody, right that once it leaves that chain, then there's a potential that things can get altered and evidence can be destroyed and the wild Yeah, and because they treated this as a suicide right away, like the apparently the cops
automatically were like, we think this is a suicide and stuff. The body went to the medical examiner was getting autopsied, and they said it was a homicide. But like the cops were in like this is a suicide mode and weren't treating it as a crime scene.
They didn't preserve evidence. Now, they stepped all over the crime scene. They did all kinds of stuff that you would not do.
Yeah, next day they released the scene that night and the next day the apartment got fully cleaned.
And didn't he have an uncle that was somewhere the boyfriend, Ye had an uncle that was somewhere in the police department or in the government of some sort. And they came in computers. They picked all the computers.
Up Yeah, there was like there was like he was a lawyer. There's like some connection with Josh Shapiro.
There's like this hole and they called crime scene cleaners, Yeah, specifically crime scene cleaners to come clean it up.
I just met and they and the computer. So the computer left this chain of costody for until they got it back a couple days later, weeks later, whatever. But like, who knows what was done to it? You, I mean, there's some big nerds out there that could like make bake Google searches, you know what I mean. That could all be sure, but it could be real.
So what do you think it is? What do you think happened? You're not sure. I just think the probably can't be.
I think she just wants an answer, I know, I just want to know what you think.
I I just think it's one of those like in the Karen Read case too. I don't know if you're familiar with that Boston Hell.
Yeah.
So I think it's one of those ones where you know, she in the media is being presented as a one hundred percent mentally sound person that just was found in this particular situation. I think the medications and the wanting to move home and the psychiatrists appointments is important to bring up because I think it makes the suicide option likely, whereas when people are seeing it covered only one way, of course, it doesn't seem like that's possible at all.
But I think because of how botched it was, it's just impossible to tell what really happened. And I think it's the same with Karen the Karen Read case too, Karen Reid.
Fascinating.
What do you guy and I agree to that one?
Oh wait, no, finish what you're saying.
I was gonna say just because I you know, I did my rotations at that office, and I know all of these doctors who are involved.
With this case with d Ellen Greenberg case, yes, okay, And.
I've worked with them like a long time, some of them, and I know there and and I just want to say that the emmy who recently has just signed it as a suicide still, I haven't worked with her since before Lillian was born, so twelve years. But when she was a resident under me, and she was I would consider her to be a good doctor. I thought that she was very interested in autopsies from the time she was a medical student. I knew her since she was
a medical student. She's she's always been on the autopsy track. I did autopsies with this person, and she was very thorough. She was one of the better doctors to do autopsies with. So I don't know, like I can't say what she's been doing in the past years, but I feel like if she looked at it again now, what she's supposed to do. She was young, she was in her she was in her twenties when that when that Ellen Greenberg case happened. She's just commenting and looking at pictures now
and reading reports. That's all she could do. She doesn't have the body, so like you only could look at what you have in front of you, and I guess this is what this is what I just said to Andrew. I think that it's possible that it's a suicide, but it's it's not probable, like if that if that makes sense, if anything's possible in pathology, anything, there's always a first of something.
In all of this.
Because it is around Halloween time, right, how much do you guys believe or not believe and like paranormal activity when it comes to a crazy case like this. So my immediate thought and I know this is very KOOKI we don't know what happened with this woman. Something snapped in her. Maybe something snapped in her and all of a sudden it was almost like a maybe mini possession or psychotic break, whatever it was possibly for her to
do this to herself. Have you, guys, ever seen any cases where you're like, the only explanation for this is something otherworldly? Do you ever think that?
I don't listen. I used to when I worked in the hospital with Frank, my autopsy partner, who is amazing. He just died this year. He was Yeah, he was the coolest dude ever, old school guy. There was this guy that worked in the lab with us who was a ghost hunter, and he used to come up to us and be like, I want to come in the morgan see if there's any spirits around you guys and stuff.
And Frank would be like, man, get the fuck out of here, like it was so great because we're and Frank has done thousands of autopsies because he was he was in his seventies when he retired, right like it just and he was doing them when they back in the day when they were doing a lot of them, and me and him would always talk about it, and just I'd be like, I just never been I've been around dead bodies by myself, cut them, this and that,
and I've never had an experience. I don't want to say that like it's impossible, because anything's possible, but but like, I've personally never had an experience, frank, never had an experience of anything. And you would think like people that work with dead people would have the most experience with it, right, right, So, or maybe you're.
So desensitized to it because it's around you all the time.
Who's to say, yeah, exactly and.
Your answer, your short answer is no, you haven't ever.
I just felt that I thought that, Yeah, I don't. I just don't.
Yeah, I'm about you, Maria, you know I you know, we.
We covered Sylvia Brown recently, and then you know, we have listeners too who claim they could like talk to the dead and stuff.
And I have a friend who does.
I it's not that I don't believe.
I believe does she though, Like, you don't know, I've never had her do it with me.
I've never I mean, I know that the response she gets from people is overwhelming. Holy shit, I can't believe you.
Knew that really, yeah, because Teresa Caputo, it's not Teresa Capudo.
Her name is Gina. She actually as my hair and makeup artist, and yeah, okay, amazing and incredible, but I've never ever dealt with her on that level in any of this. Okay, But I just hear feedback from other people who are like, oh my god, I can't believe you knew that. So I don't have my own opinion formed about it.
I I'm kind of the same way, like I I'm sitting here neutral, like I can be. I could hear somebody say they talk to them, and if they give me a convincing argument, I'll believe them. But I also can just look at science and be like, when you're dead, you're dead, you know. So I think I think somebody recently asked us how we thought about religion, and I
kind of thought the same way. Like it's not that I don't I don't necessarily believe in the concept of heaven or hell, but I don't really think when you're dead, you're just gone.
I was gonna ask you that the two of you working so closely and knowing so much about death, especially you, Nicole, do you believe that the soul is an entity that transfers from your body to something else or somewhere else when you die. Or do you think when you're dead, you're dead.
Well, what it does to an extent, but we're we're all living here. Like when I die, my children have I have a piece?
You know.
Sometimes I look in the mirror as I'm getting older and I'm like, holy shit, like I look like my grandmam. Like it's crazy, you know, it's not like like you you leave a piece of you with everyone that you surround yourself with, including especially your genetics.
Right.
So I don't know, Like I just I feel like the fact that there's so many different religions and so many different beliefs, it's kind of like and they're not like some of them are vastly different. I'm kind of like, eh, I understand. I understand the point of it, because I can't imagine going through a really bad tragedy with a loved one, and especially with one of my children and
my husband like it. I'll probably start saying in my head like I can't wait to see you again in heaven because it's the only way that I would ever be able to live in other day.
Yeah, but like.
But like is it real, Like nobody knows if it's real, Like nobody knows, So it's like it's all an imagination. And I just don't particularly do that right now, but like I'm sure i'll, i'll, I could see grabbing for that for sure. But that's why I think it's important in your day to day life to make an impact on everyone and not wait for that and have that unsettled business, so to say.
And I think the concept of heaven and hell is a really great way to keep the masses who don't have a lot of independent thought in line. Yeah, you want to scare them, that's great, And it's you know, clearly working in a lot of ways, I believe, and Diamond and I have definitely talked about this before. I think the soul is actually a form of energy. There are like studies more recently and researchers who have pinpointed like almost light leaving your body, and it could be
temperature related, it could be all kinds of stuff. Right when when you pass away. I think that this body that we all have is just sort of like our cage while we're on Earth, and when it passes and it's done, whatever is in there, in that spirit and that soul, it's released, and then you gotta do whatever you want and go wherever you want. That's my thought about it, because if I think, like maybe matter is never created or destroyed, and the soul is a thing,
then it can't be destroyed. It has to go somewhere else. I don't think it like floats into an animal or a rock or something like that. But I just wonder, like, do you skip off into the universe. The universe is quite big, There's so much to discover, And what if this body that we have is the thing that keeps us here and unable to go that far? Maybe death really is that sweet release that people talk about. Yeah, I don't know.
It's I feel like we just smoked weed. I do see do you see colors? Like, do you think that you see the color red the same I see the color red. Now, that is a thing I've thought about since I was like fourteen. I swear, yeah, I wonder. I wonder me too, But I but I can. I can definitely equate it to being in my closet with my friend and smoking weed. That's when those thoughts start to come.
Sure.
But but yeah, like there's definitely. I mean, I think it's pretty definite that you could say that there's a soul because all you you have like think about this, like just from what happened with Charlie kirk Itz, Like you're watching this video of this animated person talking and then all of a sudden, it's gone like that quick, Like that's what when you're looking at a dead body, It's just that there's no there's no like I mean, it's dead, there's no there's no any energy there. Kind
of it's weird to say. It's just like when people say, are you scared to be in a room with a dead body, I'm like, no, it's it's the same as as like a chair, to you, a chair exactly Like there's nothing there. And I don't know how to I don't really know how to explain it. But you see it when especially when you see people get killed in front of you. Hopefully people don't have to witness that, yeah, but but you see it. It's just like like that can't it's just gone, and you're like, what is that?
That has to be something, you know what I mean, it's different than any other living thing even really you know what I mean.
It truly is.
I'm just interested to hear from you guys, like what your take on that was, Diamond, what's your take on it? You gotta come over here to the microphone.
Just think it. Like you said a little bit earlier, you have to, in my opinion, at least trick yourself into thinking that you're going to see these people again. So like, that's just the way that I was raised to think about it. My family is really religious or not, like it's more spiritual. So that's just the way that
I've always thought about it. And I've always felt like bad for people who don't think that way, because I feel like death is so final, so it would break my heart to even think about the fact that I never see certain people again, you know.
So like yeah, so so then religion is for the living and not for the dead, Like that's that's how I look at it. I specifically remember being at my uncle.
My uncle, he he was not young, he was in his fifties and dropped dead from a heart attack, and I remember being at his funeral and just the priest we were raised Catholic, and the priests saying, you know, oh, he's going up to a better place now and all this, and I was and then it clicked and I was like, oh, okay, this is this is the only way that my aunt, my cousins are going to be able to like leave this church and like live on the rest, you know, absolutely,
And and it's it's it's a good it's a good thing to have because otherwise, like what you know, some if you lose your your your husband, your wife, your kids, like somebody really sibling, whatever, somebody close to you, Like, how do you live the rest of your life in any kind of peace?
You know?
I think it's funny that so many people and I will I'll leave it here with the pothead conversation, But so many people think religion and science work against each other, and I actually think they kind of worked together in a lot of ways, because there was a time when science filled the gaps or I should nope, reverse, there was a time that religion filled the gaps that science
couldn't fill because people didn't know things. So if a church was the only building standing after a crazy tornado, they were like, wow, it's because it was a church, But oh, maybe in fact, it was because it was built of steel and everything else was not. Yeah, And you know, my kids having a seizure and when I took them to the church, the seizure stopped. Well maybe the kid just stopped having the seizure by the time
you got to the church. So a lot of religion sort of filled these gaps until science came along and said, well, this is actually what's happening. But at the end of all the science we know, there is still just one more thing that we don't know. And I think that's where religion kind of comes back into it. And I think religion definitely gives people an answer or at least a feeling of comfort to the great unknown that can be terrifying to so many people, which is why I
never argue religion with anyone. I'm like, if you need that, get it, Yeah, good for you.
Yeah I'm not.
As long as you're not stepping on my rights and coming at me telling me what I have to do, We're not gonna argue about this. I want everyone to have something that gives them that type of peace. But it is an interesting relationship between the two that people think can't exist, and I think they totally exist together.
Yeah, I agree with that one hundred percent. I think that you think about all these personalities that are just larger than life, Like someone like Marilyn Monroe, for example, just had this this personality that like still lives today kind of right, and you're like, they can't just die and just be dead like a mass of nothing, right, Like there has to be something. I don't know what it is. It's above my pay grade, but I agree with what you said one hundred percent.
I feel like that's a good note for us to wrap it up on.
I think so too. Yeah, that was so philosophical and beautiful.
I think you guys are awesome and I would love to do more crossover episodes. Yeah, the time you want to. Yes, keep me posted and thanks for having me be part of your crossover episode.
Thanks.
Yes, the best. This is the best.
So if people want to find you guys online, how can they do that?
So?
My instagram is at missus m R S Underscore and Jimmy A n G E M I And our podcast is at Mother.
Nos Death and I'm at Maria q Kine and.
Our website is the grossroom dot com.
And you've got a book out already and another one on the way. Yes, which where can they find the book.
The book can be anywhere, Amazon wherever. What's uh, Nicole and Jemmy's Anatomy Book. I know you're like, could you help me, Nicole and Jemmy's Anatomy Book. It's pink, it's cute. It's in Barnes and Noble, but it's also on Amazon.
And it's cute.
Sorry, but there's inside.
There are her terrific things inside. You're going to open it and be like, oh my god, your.
Book is not yet up for pre order. You don't even have an official.
It's not I didn't even finish writing it yet. That's not coming out till twenty twenty seven though.
But that's exciting.
Yeah, oh yeah, it's good. I feel like it's going to be awesome. And there's there's very few celebrity death books, actually, and this one is going to be a different kind of a perspective than anything I've seen. So I'm excited about that.
And you're covering some of the most sensational celebrity deaths, your take on it, and you have all of like the research and the autopsy reports and all these different things you guys are going to analyze and then come to your own conclusions.
About Yeah, and I mean it's not even just highly publicized ones. It's just everyday ones, like people Alex Trabeka used to watch on Jeopardy and just like everywhere one of them. Yeah, just like random people, Steve Jobs and you know, just everybody.
All right, I love it. I can't wait. So you guys started this podcast out, so I feel like you should close it. However, you close your podcast by the way. I'm at Baby Hot Sauce on Instagram, and that's really it. You can find our I love your necklace.
By the way. It's so cute.
It says Baby Hot Sauce.
I feel like it's perfect.
Thanks.
I've weirdly enough, we think I'm still shadow band because they flagged me as a child predator.
I am, you are too.
Oh it's so bad. It's so bad, and you want to hear. I'll tell you later what I did to figure it out.
Oh, okay, I can't. I have a friend at Meta who was like, oh, yeah, definitely, because you can't put baby in Hot together.
I'm like, give me all bright, I can't this friend do anything.
He tried, and for a minute I felt like I was flying again. And then clearly my wings have been clipped, but I will not give up the name, so at Baby Hot Sauce and obviously this podcast sauce on the side along with Mother Nos Death. You can get on the iHeart app or anywhere you get podcasts. But how do you close it out?
All right?
Guys? Well, please head over to Apple or Spotify, leavers or review, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and if you have questions, comments, and no concerns, please email them to stories at Mothernosdeath dot com.
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