SO EP:656 Bigfoot And The Doctor

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out here? Did you see what it was? It was enough out here. Look, I'm new to one doowing now and I don't need anything. I don't want to go out tonight. FA Hello, hit the buddy out here? What went on out there? I thought of a bit of about sixty nine. I don't know easy. I'm out there.

It's rained every freaking day for four months. It's impossible to do anything outside, and we live outside and do everything outside. The weather is what it is. We can get into the conversation maybe someday about climate change and global warming whatever makes this the wedd Is summer ever and the coolest it's been in a long time. I think it's going to be like in the seventies over the next week or so. I'm definitely looking forward to that. But I'm leaving town this weekend as we record this.

If you guys are listening to this, on Friday, I am in Pennsylvania at the Central PA Bigfoot Conference slash Festival. I'm going to be hanging out with a bunch of good friends of mine that are coming over from the UK. I've got Daniel and his father, Craig coming over. The Barnettes will be in town. Ryan rpgu Go and Beskie will be there. There's a host of other speakers. If you're in that area and you just happen to be listening to us, grab your ticket and stop by and

see us. There's going to be tons of people out there vending. I think the speaker area is inside, so I think you actually have to pay to access that part. But you can't just go shop the vendors and have a good time. I've never been to that, but I'm looking forward to hanging out with Gwen from Gotten Knockers, who is the organizer of that, and Mike, her husband. Great people up there in Pennsylvania. I'm definitely looking forward

to that. But that's not why we're here. You've been on the show before, we've had some conversations about Bigfoot. For posterity sake, and for those who have memories like mine, I don't remember what had for breakfast, so they may not remember who you are. Why don't you give us a little bit of the dime store tour, the elevator pitch for doctor Hogan chirou Sure.

in East Africa. Spent some time with cheetahs in Southern Africa and gibbons and Asia. So I've been in lots of forests and lots of areas around the world, but my specialty is really in the evolution of behavior in humans, our hominin ancestors, and our closest relatives. My PhD was focusing on chimpanzee behavioral ecology, and I taught for a while at a university that have consulted for years. Have

always had an interest in all things squatchy. That's why I reached out to you originally, and I'm excited to be here chatting with you today about some of this stuff.

will agree, probably more than we disagree. But one of the things that I was fascinated with that you brought up, I think in one of our first conversations, and I want to get into it here today to start with, is a great place. In my opinion, it's a springboard for a lot of the experiences people have with bigfoot sasquatch, harry man, bushman, whatever you call them, wherever you happen to be, whatever the nomenclature for you in your area is.

We're talking about the same thing here, and it's this super hero thing that accompanies these descriptions of these encounters. It's one of the things that we talked about before, is these things seem to be the biggest, the baddest, the fastest, the strongest, the loudest. They're the everything ist that has anything to do with the animal kingdom, and

that doesn't make sense in any other capacity. I think recently I was on another podcast as a guest, and I was talking about this very thing and how it baffles me. And I think I compared an elephant and a cheetah. Right, Cheetah's one of, if not the fastest animal on Earth. Elephant's one of the biggest animals that's ever been on the Earth currently on the Earth. I think the largest elephant that I read something about recently was back in the early nineties. It was a big

bull elephant. He weighed twenty six thousand pounds. Enormous creature, right, But you take those two animals and they're amazing in and of themselves, But if you compare them side by side, there's nothing there that really overlaps at all. Elephants are big, they're heavy, they're strong, they're powerful, they're loud. Cheetahs are fleek, they're built for speed, they're killing machines. And when you

get into the bigfoot sasquatch thing. I've had my own encounters with these things, and I'm sure we're going to talk about at some point. When you compare these to say a sasquatch encounter. Sasquatch are always the fastest, they move the fastest, they're the biggest, they're the loudest. Their vocalization you feel them before you hear them. People think they're able to emit infrasound, very similar to animals like elephants and big cats. But they're like the superhero of cryptids,

and that never has made sense to me. I tend to stay in the lane of flesh and blood, the scientific approach to this research, But I think what that does the longer I stay in this and I think this happens with a lot of people in the subject. Instead of sticking with the science and just saying, Okay, there's no way this creature could exist, so none of that makes any sense, it's all bullshit. I don't believe that.

Because I've seen these creatures. I know they exist. So I have to then evaluate is there something often the sauce with the person or persons who experience that. Maybe it was adrenaline, Maybe it was fear. Maybe it was something else in the encounter. I've said it before. I think maybe these things might have been six feet tall and they grew three feet or they became ten feet

tall because of the fear and adrenaline. They disappeared. Maybe it didn't disappear, Maybe it just blended with its environments. The list goes on and on. There's a litany of things. Where are you on this given your background, given your knowledge, training and experience, your degree in the subject, how do you reconcile that in your brain as a scientist. Are you one of these people that dismiss a whole cloth or do you think there could be something more to some of these signings.

I brought that up originally because as I was getting more and more in to more recent sasquatch stories and things, I was noticing just that through line of people talking about, Oh, it was so powerful, it did things that humans could never do. A five hundred pound rock came flying past our truck and it was at least ten feet tall. We went out to the tree and measured it was at least that tall. It ran faster than any animal possibly could. I recently heard someone say there's nothing in

North America that could outrun a sasquatch. Considering pronghorn antelope can hit about sixty miles an hour, that's an impressive claim. And I am definitely if sasquatch exists, definitely a flesh and blood guy. If it exists, in my opinion, it's an ape of some sort. But we need to figure that out. But when we look at I love your example of elephants and cheetahs because what they do have

in common is their mammalian ancestry. They're both mammals, both give birth to live young, both nurse them, both have some sort of hair on their bodies. But you're right, when you just look at them, that's where a lot of the similarities. And one of the other things with cheetahs is one of the compromises that's happened in cheetah evolution to get that fast is that they're incredibly fragile. So cheetahs don't take any risks when it comes to hunting.

When it comes to defending food, if a larger predator comes along, a cheetah will just take off because it can outrun that predator, but it can't outfight it. Its bones are more fragile, and really all predators are risk averse that way, but cheetah's more so than most elephants. On the other hand, I mean, there are certain groups

that traditionally hunted elephants. They would process elephants from the inside out because it was easier to cut through their stomach and get the guts out and start working from the inside that it was cutting through their hide. That's how tough their height is. And while an elephant can outrun a human if it wants to for a short distance, it's pretty much done for the rest of the day. You said that you're running five or six miles a day.

An elephant's not doing that with you. An elephant's walking that slowly because their body requires so much food. There are these kind of principles in evolution, things like niche separation, which is what gets you from a mammalian ancestor to eventually cheetahs and elephants, dolphins and otters and everything else. But there's also life history theory is a pretty powerful tool in biological studies. It really talks about finite resources.

There are finite resources and whether those are food, water, or resources for evolution, so ability to develop certain parts of your body. What happens is this kind of trade off. There's almost a cost benefit analysis that happens unconsciously organisms depending on the niche that they've separated, and to use their resources in different ways. Humans were a great example.

We're sitting here talking to each other from three thousand miles away on computers that our big gass brains have developed, but we all know that physically, I don't care if there's one hundred of us, we're no match for a gorilla. It's just not happening. Those are trade offs that have happened over the course of human evolution. Developed that big brain,

we put less investment into our physical abilities. So when I hear these stories of like you said, the superhero of cryptids, right, where all of those boxes are checked. Some of those folks will say, and they're as smart as humans, or they're close to as smart as humans, and they're stronger than a gorilla, and they're faster than a cheetah, and they're that's in there, and that's biologically. We have just never seen that happen with an organism ever.

Of the million millions of species that have existed, we've never seen one that checks all the boxes. So for me, I think you're on the right track. I think that what happens is people's perception when they're having these experiences, it gets distorted without them realizing it. I think of the old fishing stories. How big was the fishit you caught? Oh yeah, that sucker was at least two feet long. You caught an eat inch bass. That's a nice bass,

but it wasn't a record center. I have friends who have been hunting for thirty years who come back talking about biggest buck I've ever seen. Oh my god, I thought it was an elk when it came through the woods. I have been with them. Had it happen where guys talking about the biggest buck run into the same deer. Nice four point. It's not the largest deer that's ever lived. I'm not saying this to disparage anyone. I think that it's a natural thing that happens in our brains, and

actually I think it may be an adaptation. It may be something that's evolved that protects us.

go by those articles, they were ten feet tall. They were gigantic. There's no grizzly bear in the world that's that big. Again, let's not to say that those folks are lying that those folks are making something up intentionally, and it may not be an adaptation, may just be a byproduct of our creative brains.

sense the more encounter stories that you hear. At some point, it can't be the smartest, the biggest, the fastest, the everything is on earth. So you start looking at other things. Could it be interdimensional? Could it be sent here by aliens? Could it be something that's supernatural? And I think that's the dangerous slippery slope for a lot of people in this is they start to abandon science for other explanations that will fill in the gaps in some of the

things that don't make sense. I think that's one of the things we have to be very careful of. I too, am guilty of it at times because I've seen things in my own experiences that don't make sense to me, which we'll talk a little bit about here shortly. You mentioned something that I want to expand on a little bit, which is the overlap or the alleged overlap in sasquatch sightings and ecology versus bear ecology and what that means for some of these sightings in your opinion, do you

think that there could be or is an overlap? And this is something that's come up multiple times with doctor Jeff Meldrum. He often compares if there's black bear in the area, there could be sasquatch in the area in his opinion, because that ecology and that biology and what they would need to survive is very similar in his opinion. What's say you on this alleged overlap or this overlap of the alleged sasquatch encounters and the bear ecology and

where bears are currently residing. Let's just use the lower forty eight.

of berries, grubs, or roots, all sorts of things. That's in late terms how I like to describe omnivores. Just eat whatever they can, right, They eat whatever will sustain them that they can digest. I've had sightings myself. I've seen bear had It happened two years ago while I was deer hunting. I saw this massive black animal for

about seventy five yards away disappearing into the bush. From that diston, with the broken foliage that I was looking through, I could have easily thought, WHOA, I was a huge sasquatch that ran into the woods. Being the open minded biologist I am, I was like, all right, walk your ass over there and check out the tracks and see

see if you can find any side. And so I did, and sure enough found some really nice black bear tracks stuffed up a little bit and followed them for a little bit to see if I could get another view. It's also bear season here, Walle, it's deer season. I don't hut bears, but it definitely was that size because it didn't stick around when humans have rifles. That got me thinking. First off, we can talk about the sighting stuff, but kind of overlap. And I know Jeff. I have

great respect for Jeff. I really like it. I think he's just top notch when it comes to especially to anatomy, evolution of anatomical structures, things like that. I think, respectfully, I disagree with him on his assessment day where there are black bears that are probably sasquatch, because again in biology, we don't see where large organisms share ecological niches even if one's active during the day and one's active during

the night. Black bears are active during both the day and the night, primarily day, but they move around at night too. Obviously, all the reports from sas fast watches out there they are primarily active at night, but they operate during the day too. To me, that just doesn't

match biologically. Ecologically, it doesn't line up. You'd have to have some sort of real niche separation between the two for those two speakings to coexist, especially at their body size, because they're gonna wipe out resources if they're both in the same areas doing that. But I do think the bear phenomenon is something that we really should think about when we're thinking about sightings and things like that, especially when you hear these kind of fleeting sidings. Because my

anecdotal story is a great example of that. When someone says I saw some huge black animal move off, let's not jump to something that we don't know for sure. If it's out there, we'll talk about your stuff when you want to. But my opinion is let's stay conservative. We know black bears are out there, so that's probably what it was. Again, I think ecologically it just doesn't

work for me. Jeff and I actually a couple of years ago went around and around respectfully about it, where I was like, so explain to me this because we don't see this. You don't see another large carnivore where there are tigers, and tigers are hunting mostly at night and there's a daytime large carnivore that's operating filling that same niche. So, yeah, that's where I stand on it.

misidentifications that happen. It's easy to do. It's easy to get scared startled when you see a big black mass moving away, and most people don't do what you did, which was go towards where you saw this thing and find follow up traces of what it could have been ie footprints that turned out to be a black bear. I see a large black mass moving off into the tree line, I go where said black mass enter the

tree line, and wow, there's black bear. Prance, you put all the totality of the circumstances together, you saw black bear. Most people don't do that. They just assume that whatever that was, whatever their brain immediately goes to, whether it was a bear or a asquatch. For them, that's what it is, and that's what the story is for the

remainder of their life. But that's the difference I think in you and the rest of the world, or me and the rest of the world, is most people aren't into those kind of things, so they're not going to do that, and it just continues to be perpetuated as a siding of bigfoot or it was just a black bear.

I would imagine that it's probably happened in the past that somebody might have seen a sasquatch and thought it was a black bear and just dismissed it as Oh, I saw this big black bear when I was out there. I've heard those stories that initially people thought that's what they saw, and then they investigated and they found different results, more human like foot prints that were larger, those kind of things.

how dangerous that thing is, Get the hell away. I think part of what it may be my training in being in the field with large animals, having been charged by elephants more than seven times in my life. It may also just be a natural fascination by me. We're having that discussion one time, that theoretical discussion. I said, well, it's not theoretical for me, and they said what, And I said. I was hunting one time. I saw this thing that I couldn't explain what it was. I would

literally have my scope upon it. I was looking at it. I still couldn't explain what it was. It looked like a hair covered head in the woods that was maybe a little taller than I am. I don't know what that is. I pulled my scope, I cranked it up high power. It still couldn't get a good view of it. So I finally went, you know what, forget it and just walked straight towards it, because I'm like, if it is a sasquatch and it decided to kill me, here's

a fun way to go. This is gonna be a great story for my fam I had a hunting buddy, maybe just like two hundred yards away, so he knew right where I was. So it's like, I'm not gonna be one of those who just disappears. I'm gonna be found. It was a stump squatch. I found the exact stump. It was one of those where, Okay, I'd answered that

question for myself. It may not benefit me someday, But when I decided to do that, When I hear a growl in the African forest and I decide to go check it out and ends up being a big ass lion or something, it's something that I think you're right. I think most people they're not going to be bothered with going over there. They're not going to go to the frustration or exhaustion or pain of fighting through the foliage you may have to, or getting through the brush

to get over there. Whatever the case is. They're driving by, they got to get home, whatever the situation. I think they don't take the time those two particular cases, I had the time I could do it, so I did it. I think that kind of goes to what I hope us having these conversations we'll get folks to do a little bit more. I love the kind of citizen science approach that's happening, that kind of crowdsourcing that's going on

with ideas and stuff around the sasquatch phenomenon. Part of the reason I'm interested in getting more involved than this is because I really want folks to go okay. So it's one thing to be a bird watcher, it's another thing to be an ornithologist or a bird scientist, right you Like, you can go out and bird watch all day long and you get some great information on western meadow lark is in this area, or whatever the case is.

But to get deeper into understanding behavioral ecology, the evolution of organisms, those sort of things, there's some methods that can be employed that help people get that kind of more objective and more scientific perspective on things.

specifically in Washington State. We were actually working out of the Olympic Project Headquarters was our base of operations when we were in that area filming once we'd moved out of the Seattle area.

dragging into the woods. We wanted to take them into an area where we could do serious research and get some hopefully good footage of what we were doing, but for everybody to be safe. Obviously, we didn't want to damage these hundred thousand dollars plus cameras. So we were doing the first day we went out, we'd separated because

we were behind scheduled. There were some things that happened early on and when you see the documentary it's called My Bigfoot Life, you'll see what happened over in the United Kingdom that set us back multiple days. So everything was compacted as far as the schedule was concerned, so we had to split up go our different ways. Part

of the team went one way. I was part of the team that was doing the scouting that day for the night shoot, while some of the other team was doing other things, filming some b roll and other stuff. So we get out into this area and we started hearing whistling in the woods.

large trees in this area, old growth forest. It's in a protected area, so nobody's been logging in there for hundreds of years, so most of the trees are pretty big. And stay tuned for more sasquatch oat to see. We'll be right back after these messages. Looking in that area where we had heard this whistle, and I see something peak around the side of a tree. It's probably seventy five eighty yards away. It was a really quick peak. I'm talking split second, less than a second. Happened three times,

but I saw a face. I saw what looked like a dark face with eyes just peeking around the tree. Saw that three times. I drew everybody's attention to that area. Everybody started looking. We didn't hear the whistling anymore. So we're now focused on trying to see what was peaking around this tree. It was in an area where we weren't comfortable trying to access. It was very inhospitable terrain. It was not something that we felt at that moment.

As much as I wanted to go investigate, it just didn't seem safe and a good use of our time. So we moved on. We went on, finished up our scouting of the area, found some areas that we knew we wanted to go into. We had found some I can't remember what type of nuts they were, but we found some piles of nuts that looked like something had sat there and had a snack or a meal. Very interesting. We didn't find any of the nuts or a tree that had the nuts anywhere in the area, so they

looked like they had been brought there. I have to ask Chris. Chris knew exactly what kind of nuts they were. He actually somehow managed to get them through customs and back into the United Kingdom, and he still had them because he was convinced that a sasquatch had been eating them, so he took some of the husks back with him as a souvenir. Hopefully he won't get arrested in the UK for that. We went on and found this area.

We went out that night and did our night shoot and that's when we had two more encounters with these things happened very similarly. We were hearing this whistling noise that was drawing our attention to this area in the woods. Bobo was there and he had his thermal, and he and Daniel, this kid who at the time was fourteen when this happened. They were passing the thermal back and forth and they're seeing some heat signatures. At first it

was one, then it was a larger heat signature. Bobo turns around and asks the group me, Ryan, Chris, and there was a couple of other people and of course the two cameramen were there. He said, there's a huge heat signature and he points to this area. We estimated it was probably thirty to fifty yards into the woods. He's like, who's going to go out there? Of course I'm going it's possibly a bigfoot. I'm gonna go. So I went started walking towards that area. I actually have

the thermal footage. It's about ten or twelve minutes of thermal I think Obviously it hasn't been released hip because the documentary's not out. Once the documentary comes out, I fully intend to release this thermal because we called some very interesting images. I'll just leave it at that. So I'm walking to this area where I was hearing this whistling. Now the whistling stops, but I'm letting them basically guide me. They're looking through the thermal and they're saying, go this way,

go that way. It's right there, it's about so and so in front of you. You should be in that area. And I started hearing some weird sounds. I've described it as it almost sounded like picking up two or three large river rocks and like juggling them around in your hand. You know that noise they make when they hit together, right, Well, that's what it sounded like. It's weird to describe that.

I don't know what that could be or why I was hearing this noise, but I was hearing this noise, and I was hearing faint what sounded like something possibly walking. I think I heard a snap of a twig, but not a lot of noise. Right, So I'm walking towards where the noise is and I get to an area where this is thick. It's really thick. There's so much deadfall,

it's unbelievable. There was so much deadfall, in fact, that the guys who were filming us, the two guys on the camera crew, couldn't make it in with the rigs. Everything that we filmed from that point forward in the woods had to be done on GoPros and a handheld camera that Ryan rpg Gill and Beskie bought back in like nineteen ninety four, And the only reason he had it with him is because it was handheld and it had night vision.

dark up until this point. I threw my flashlight on and this thing crosses across the trail in front of me, probably twenty feet in front of him, this big, dark, hairy figure. I could see from the top of the head basically to I don't know, maybe midchest. It's got its arms back like you're making a motion to go a different direction, and its face is turned away from me. I'm shining my flashlight on this thing's back, and I'm like, holy shit, this thing just crossed the trail twenty feet

in front of me. So of course I said something like, holy shit, this thing just crossed in front of me. They hear me. Chris is starting to come into the area at this point, He's a screw it. Brian's been in there long enough by himself. Chris, he's starting to come up here now. Chris is I don't know, six' four two, ten Former queen's, guard big, dude, right he's coming trapsing up behind, ME i. Hear and we go back and regroup With bobo and them and, said, look

this is what. Happened this is WHAT i. Saw we're going to follow this direction because it was headed from my left to right across this. Trail so everybody goes into the. Woods and by, EVERYBODY i mean it was, Me, RYAN, Rpg, daniel his, Dad, craig And. Chris we go into the. Woods chris AND i are Together daniel And ryan And craig are in another. Group we get to a certain point in the woods Where i'm a little bit off

to the. Left ryan is over. Here Then chris AND i get to an area where we stop and we're, listening And i've got it on. Audio i've listened back to the. AUDIO i wasn't miked for this, part BUT i had my audio going in my pocket AND i had a little mic that was clipped, on So i'm recording. THIS i haven't listened to the audio to hear if this is on the, audio but you can Hear chris AND i talking about this. Sound it sounded like something jumped out of a tree and landed on the. Ground

it was like this. Thud And chris is, LIKE i heard this. THUD i, SAID i heard the same. Thing it sounded like something jumped out of a. Tree it was really. Weird we're talking about. That we're hearing some more. Cracking we're hearing something that sounds like it's moving from left to right above. US i get to an area Where i'm by myself and walk off From. Chris chris goes back and he's With daniel And craig are all in one, area And ryan is milling around behind us

doing this. THING i Hear daniel SAY i see eye. SHINE i see eye, shine and he's pointing up this. Ridge SO i look where he's. POINTING i move almost even with, them and THEN i walk a few. Steps i'm probably eight or ten feet in front of. Him at this POINT i SEE i don't know how to describe it other than a big set of glowing white eyes and they're swaying back and. Forth it's almost like if you listen to enough anecdotal experiences from people seeing,

sasquatch it's almost like. THAT i hate to use the, term but it's like an autistic person sways back and, forth that kind of. Movement. Right So i'm watching, this and then there's another set that's a little bit, smaller maybe a foot and a half. Below. Oh this set is a smaller set of what looks like glowing white. Eyes AND i say glowing because at this point nobody had any lights. On there was no ambient. Light it had been, raining it was. OVERCAST i don't think there

was any. MOONLIGHT i couldn't see my hand in front of my face with our lights. Off we see. This we're all, like what The and you can see in the Video i'm in front of. Them you can't really see my, face but it's Clear i'm trying to figure out what we're looking. At you can feel the what the fuck is? That and they. Disappear it's like they drop, down they just. Go both sets. Gone so at that point we throw our flashlights. On and when we threw

our flashlights, on almost the exact same thing. Happened that happens fifteen minutes. BEFORE i see this thing ten feet now in front of, me cross across the trail and goes. Up immediately as soon AS i saw, IT i Hear Chris, Yale oh my, God, oh oh my. GOD i just saw it move across the. Trail daniel saw, it AND

i take off after. IT i started running full bore up the side of this, ridge PROBABLY i don't, know seven to ten percent, grade which doesn't sound like a lot until you're fifty years old and you're in a bunch of underbrush and.

it up. There everybody eventually makes it up. There they start, filming asking me WHAT i. Saw we start going through the whole. THING i get super. EMOTIONAL i cried like a little bitch WHILE i was up, there And i'll tell you it was. MORE i think it had a lot to do WITH i had this adrenaline, dump SO i THINK i had a lot to do with the, adrenaline BUT i also felt really shitty BECAUSE i doubted so many people who had explained to me that they had almost the same thing happened to, them AND i

just rolled my. EYES i was, like these things don't have glowing. Eyes you weren't ten feet away from a big. Foot you're full of. Shit and then it happened to, Me SO i felt like a. DICK i was very emotional BECAUSE i was, upset adrenaline, pumping AND i had just seen SOMETHING i didn't think, existed BUT i saw it with my own, EYES i believe three times in two. Days that was pretty much the. End after, that we made our way back down to the rest of the

group that couldn't make it up. There so we're all standing around doing a. Debrief we get to a point Where bobo, says in my, experience sometimes when you get that close to these, things or other people have had these experiences and they've gotten this close to these, things sometimes if you'll move, on like the whole group will move on and somebody hangs, back you'll have an experience like they'll come back. In AND i was, like that sounds really. Cool i'd like to have that. Experience i'll

be the one to stay. Back everybody else goes the two miles back to base camp or. Whatever i'm going to hang back here by. Myself sounded. Good at the time we finished the, filming we did a big long call and some other stuff that you guys can see in the. Documentary it was really. Cool it was a really cool moment to have everybody there and just experience what we had. Experienced so everybody takes off And i'm

standing there And i'm. Fine i'm perfectly fine BECAUSE i just chase this thing up the hill with no fear at. ALL i felt zero fear at any point during any of them UNTIL i was there by, myself AND i had almost immediate this overwhelming feeling of. Dread you need to be somewhere, else And i've only felt that a couple of. Times BUT i knew well enough that it was time for me to, go SO i started making

my way back. DOWN i was probably ten minutes at most behind the rest of the, group and WHEN i caught, Up buba was, like what the hell are you doing down? HERE i thought you were going to stay, back AND i was, like your ass can go up. There i'm. Not he was, like WHAT i told him about the, Feeling he was, like that's. Weird i've never heard anybody talking about. THAT i was, like, DUDE i don't know what it. IS i don't know if it's the post adrenaline.

DUMP i don't know if it's just me psyching myself, out whatever the case may. Be my gut was telling me to, go and that's WHAT i. Did buba. Went he made his way back up. There he stayed up there for a. While he had no other experiences That i'm aware. Of he said he didn't hear or see or feel anything while he was up. There that kind of drew that to a close to. Me there's no doubt in my mind WHAT i, saw and it confuses me to this. Day i'm still trying to process how

all of that. Happened HOW i was so close to something that. Big we all estimated once we got our bearings based on the foliage the trees around our. Height i'm six,' two chris is a little bit taller. Than me he's about. Six' four this thing had to be at least seven to seven and a, half feet tall because that was. Ten feet away ten feet is not, a great distance and. It was big it was much, bigger than, me much, bigger much, taller much wider and.

CERTAINLY way hairrier i don't know how to explain. THE glowing eyes i don't know how to explain being that close to something that big that didn't make any more noise. Than it did we heard no vocalizations of any kind outside of the whistles. That we heard that. Didn't make sense didn't sound, like a bird didn't sound, like a cat didn't sound like any Other animal that. I'd ever heard it sounded like a person whistling to. Get our

attention that's exactly what. It sounded like that's pretty much it. Man, THE experience again i don't know what else.

i need to help dive into IN whatever. Way i can because when, You said listen i'm now in, THE knower camp, i, was like whoa that's, heavy FOR me and i know it. IS for you i know that's not a light statement. That you make so thanks for sharing, that, with ME because, LIKE i said i, was just like, Wait a second brian knows. What, HE saw man i got to rethink some. Of this stuff.

people say all we see it in other parts of. The, animal world yeah we see it with, things like jellyfish we see it with shit that's so far removed from human it's almost an alien. SPECIES to us i say that intentionally because that thing gets people into that jump off of the woo thing and, all OF that which i don't. BUY into either i think that there's probably.

Some other explanation either we're dealing with some sort of ape that we've never seen before again if we're talking a real species out, in the forest or we're dealing With something and i'll just leave it at something for now that can make the appearance that it has glowing eyes that, can do things because, those are scary. Those are impactful there's something possibly going on.

saw the eyes clearly. Glowing or reflecting but in the moment and EVEN now as, i recall IT that's what. I remember seeing i remember seeing what. Looked like bioluminescence could it have, Been, something different absolutely because it doesn't compute. To me either humans, don't have eyeshine we don't have it, to pay them, loose of them so it wouldn't make sense that something along the lines of an ape would. HAVE that ability i am certainly open. To, OTHER things

again i haven't seen all the footage from. All the cameras it's possible somebody could have had a light on and maybe not have been. SHINING it directly i don't know a lot.

just going to be little beacons. To it's surrounding so that's the other part is it doesn't make sense logically that an organism would evolve that unless it's being used as some, Sort of display unless it's being used as. Something like that, and the way even in your experience that, you just described that doesn't sound. Like a display they're not using it to scare you or to show you.

That they're there so that's what makes. ME just wonder i really think that's an interesting line OF questioning that i think there may be some hypotheses you could, come up with look at it scientifically and get, to a deduction but it's going to be hard to get the data. On that one.

see that. In the video we. Recorded it happening so there is some, extra evidence there, if you will although it's not conclusive by any stretch. Of the imagination we're not talking about, the money shot but there is some physical representation of what we saw that Made me go. I'm NOT crazy when, I saw, It i said i'm not crazy because. It's clearly there it's, a split second.

this scientific method is to take the human reaction. OUT of it i appreciate, that, YOU'RE like man i felt like an ass, for doing this for, Doubting these people but at, the same time your skepticism helps to propel any kind of research Into this ford and you said it at the very, beginning, Of this right that's what needs to happen is we need to, Have, people going, okay that's great but could it? Have been this could it? Have been that Because we need the other part is

that emotional. Reaction, you had honestly if you look at

journal entries things like that from soldiers who. Are In battle and i'm not saying that anything you were in comes even close to what our veterans and fallen, soldiers went through but that kind of really intense emotional situation, in your case something that you've been how long you've been doing the BIGFOOT thing since I, was issu yeah, so a lifelong almost forty year fascination knacking you in the face almost from twenty feet away and then ten

feet away if you hadn't had, AN emotional reaction I keep like brian maybe you should see someone they talk is that, with a therapist because that's like the. Most human reaction and THE journal part i was talking about is you look at, journals from soldiers a lot of them who write honestly and who have been able to talk honestly after their first encounter. With the enemy. Soldiers are bawling there may not have even, been shots fire it's.

Just That intensity and I'll tell you i've observed more than thirty what we call battles between chimpanzee communities during my time, in the field where you have multiple males from one community multiple males from another community coming. Together and fighting i've observed more. Than, of those afterward our closest living relatives have that same kind, of emotional overload the adrenaline dump that. You're talking, about they're screaming they're,

doing fear grimaces they're. Comforting each other chimps don't really have saline tears so much, like we do but they are doing all the chimp. Equivalent AFTER that so i would say this is a deeply rooted evolutionary behavior that you experienced after. That intense experience so you're just a good primate. For doing, that you know a. Really intense experience it's again that kind of byproduct of those chemicals

and hormones being released. Into your system but getting back to the nuts and, Bolts, of IT man now i want to go To Visit. The olympic project i've spent some Time In The olympia National Forest. AND national park i. Love THAT area but i know what you're talking about how intense the deadfall the forest can be, to get through especially if you're not, on, a nice clean manicured hiking trail that they've, set for you which in, your guy's case you Went In. The national park if You're In,

the national park don't go off trail you're. Not supposed to but in, your, Guys case yeah i've been. IN that forest i understand what. You're talking about. THAT is intense i have tried to follow deer and lots of other animals up slopes like. You're, Talking about, yeah i'm sorry it's just a hopeless endeavor for a biped to try. And do that That's a human i'll. Say, that one yeah it was.

a picture of a sasquatch picking it up. And sniffing it, We don't know, probably never know because it's still out. In the forest but we went back, the, next DAY man and i can't believe that any of us survived that without a broken leg or, a broken ankle especially flat out running the way. That we were, it was insane the dead fall and the trees and the jagged sticks and rocks and things that. We went over. But we,

Survived and yeah i've. Said this before it goes back to your point earlier about being contested and being challenged when it comes. To your experiences i've always been. Open to that we run A group on facebook that has almost thirteen thousand members, At This point Bigfoot Encounters and Field, research On facebook and i've actually stopped admins in the group from ejecting people and muting people that were disagreeing with me about my EVIDENCE or what. I put, forward,

i'm like no you're not going. To do that THAT'S exactly. WHAT i want i want people, that will say but? What about this then it makes me THINK and then i can, answer THE question or, i, can say yeah it's possible there was ambient light instead of them, being

glowing eyes although it didn't appear that way. At the time. Is, that possible absolutely it's possible that it, was SOMETHING else because i think if you get to the point where you're Constantly drinking the, bigfoot kool aid everything else is just. A moot point, at this juncture there's nowhere to Go other than i'm. A diehard believer people still ask me. To this day i've, gotten messages saying how could you have an experience like that just last year and still.

BE so skeptical i say it. All the time i'm Not skeptical. ABOUT bigfoot Anymore i know bigfoot Is real because. I've seen them i'm, skeptical about people, always have been always will be because people. Make shit up they want to be a part. Of the club they, Make up lies, they fake evidence. They hoax Videos that's what, i'm SKEPTICAL

about and i. Always will be but without those. Kind OF conversations when i put out the FOOTPRINT cast that i did a couple of years ago, ON the property i knew what people were, going to say because they. Look too good they are too good comparatively speaking to some of the Other things that i've cast and some of The other things i've. SEEN people cast i knew that there was going to, be, people saying oh you.

Just hoaxed that what's the chances of the bigfoot podcaster who just happens to have bigfoot on his property casting footprints sixty yards. FROM his house i don't know what. The odds are i'm just telling. You what happened but if you want, to examine them sure you. Can examine them i've Given, Them to cliff i've Given. THEM to jeff i actually Took them to Jeff up in gatlinburg just what last weekend because he had, seen the scans. He'd seen photos he'd just never held. The ACTUAL cast

Because i sent, CLIFF a copy I didn't send. JEFF a copy i have no, problem BEING challenged and i think that's part of the problem with This community. That i've seen it's probably a conversation, for Another day but i've seen that so much in some of The, groups on facebook where you can't even challenge a person and you can't even ask a question about their photos or their videos or their air quote evidence that they're presenting because that's just not. What THEY'RE about and. I get

it you can run your group. However you want Just Know that Bigfoot Encounters and field research. Group my group you're going to be. CHALLENGED hands down i don't care. Who you are that's, how, we learn man that's. How we grow and that's, what pushes this, in my opinion further down the field is everybody being skeptical about everything but being able to sit down and drink a beer and have a.

Kind of methodology my, third watching example we get lots of. Data THAT way but i hear so many people on, podcasts at CONFERENCES people that i talk to talking about wait till science, recognizes these things and so many organizations out there their mission is to get science to. Recognize these things, FOR those folks, I, would say okay, the

question is it's not science changing to. Recognize these things it's using scientific methods to show that the data's overwhelming that, says watch exists and it's not proving anything because science. Doesn't prove things, mathematics has. Proofs that's geometry it's not getting. To the truth that's getting.

hey i haven't seen all. The video yet maybe there was a light somewhere controlling for all the variables you can and you just left the door open for let's control for those variables before we. Make definitive statements that's. PART of science i love the idea of sasquatch. Being, Out there again, i'll, say it man since you have. Had Your experience, Now, i'm Like okay now i'm really QUESTIONING stuff because i JUST feel like i understand where.

You're Coming from and i've Been on With cliff and bobo a Few times and matt, a FEW times and i love THOSE guys and i, appreciate THEIR perspective but i don't have the same. Kind of connection and they have been in the game for so long and they have. Had THEIR experiences when, i met them, they, Were like no, i'm telling you these, things Are real, And, i'm like. Okay we'll see let's talk about what this. DEAL is

again i appreciate. YOU sharing that i really appreciate that you shared about the EMOTIONAL component because i think that needs, to. BE normalized right i think people. Need, to, realize look man if you're out on a hike and a mountain lion is stalking you and you, figure it out and you see that thing's tail as, it goes off and you feel yourself not being able to catch your breath and you feel yourself getting a. Little weld up even if you, have an outburst don't kick yourself and think

that you're somehow weak. Or you're this that's just a human reaction, and it's, OKAY quite HONESTLY i hope i get to have. One of THOSE it's something i.

voicemail there it comes. Directly to me we get those. Every single day so if there's something you want us to talk about on, a future episode. Let us know hit us up because We will have hogan back on the show sooner. Rather, Than later man i've had a good time. Talking to you i'm glad, you Were on and i'm looking forward to the next conversation so we can dig into some of these other topics we didn't. Get, to, TODAY.