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Today, I want to tell you about a journey that I've been on for most of my life. Ever since I was a kid, I've heard tales of Bigfoot and wild men, while spending time with my friends and family. As I grew older and read more about the paranormal, my interest in cryptids and other things strange only deepened. That's why I'm so excited to share with you what
I've personally become involved with The Untold Radio Network. The Untold Radio Network is a live streaming podcast network that airs a new show every day across all podcast platforms, YouTube, and more. They have eight different shows on all sorts of exciting topics such as bigfoot, cryptids, UFOs, aliens, and much more. I even have my own show called Weird Encounters, where I talk about all things strange. This is more
than just a podcast network. It's a community that allows me to meet so many amazing people who share their stories and experiences with the strange. If you're interested in hearing more of these stories and learning more about the paranormal and cryptids, make sure you check out the Untold Old Radio Network for all kinds of exciting shows.
It's free to subscribe. So what are you waiting for?
Visit www dot untold radionetwork dot com today.
Now want one to your reporting. I got a screen going on here something just kid with my dog something to kill your dog? My dog? What applying to he? Or over the tree? I don't know how it did it?
Okay, damn it.
I'm really confused. All I saw was my dog coming over the fence. The name of a dead once you hit the ground. I didn't be seen cars. All I saw was my dog coming over the fence.
What are you playing?
We got some wonder or.
Something crawling around out here.
I'm out here looking new to window now and I don't need anything. I don't want to go.
Outdiight, Hello, hit the boddy out here? What quin an ounce there?
I thought of a bit about second nine.
I don't know.
Easy annount there? Yeah, I'm working right.
Heady, all right, folks want to welcome our guest to the show. It is author Paul Buckaner. Welcome to the show.
Thank you, certainly looking forward to being here with.
You, Brian.
I have been looking forward to this conversation. I think we've been trying to schedule this since sometime like mid twenty twenty four, So I am glad the stars have a line for us to finally come together for this interview. Let's start where I start with most people. What guy you interested in the subject of bigfoot sasquatch.
To begin with, I talked about this in one of my first books, Non Fictionalmen. When I was a kid, during the summers here at Eastern Notes, Lahome Loft, we always look forward to just having that summer vaca where we spend time down the creek, out in the woods, anything everywhere.
But at home.
This summer was a little bit different because I remember the very first day of summer vacation, my dad wakened me up early in the morning, said, Hey, get up, get dressed, You're coming with me to work today.
Now, my dad was a carpenter.
They built houses all over Oklahoma, and my dad, my uncle, his nephews, other uncles. My dad was one of eleven nine boys and they all did something in the construction from a third word to a finished carpentry. So my cousin lived right down the road for me. He was by my age as well, and we're probably about eleven years old or something like that. We're both really looking forward to spending time fishing on the creek and all
this good stuff, but not that day. So I get dressed, jumping the drop with Dad and we head to the work site.
It wasn't too far away when we get there.
It was really, I think, just a ruse to keep me from keeping my mom disturbed during the day, get him out of the house, that sort of thing. But we call up to the job site here, and really our job as kids was to stay out of the way, pick up scrap lumber here and there, that sort of thing.
My cousin and I were just messed around in the yard plan you know.
Remember this is probably getting close to lunchtime when one of the neighbors comes over and asks where our dad's work.
Now, this was a time when way before cell phones. This was the late.
Seventies, around nineteen eighties somewhere. Riding there and the neighbor came over and said, hey, where's your dad's at. We told them they're in the back and they're working on something. The guy runs into the house, and it's a few minutes later my dad and my uncle come out and said, hop in the truck. We got it o, so jump into the truck. I'm not knowing what in the world's going on. My cousin and I we're riding in the
back of the truck. Back in the day when you could do that but Mike uncle up from top of this hill in a first called England Hollow. It was pretty remote, third roads, big hills, a lot of woods.
And the creaked it ring by it.
But we finally get to the house and my dad and uncle they're rushing to the door and my cousin and I don't knowing what's going on. But my uncle walks on the door because we didn't have his kings with him, Like I said, Let'm at the job side or something. When we finally get into the house, my aunt and my others, she was a younger girl. They were hiding in the back and not knowing what in the world's going on. She's scared at that. She's just
trembling and shaving. Then she's trying to get her story out.
But what it was.
She had called this neighbor by this house where my mom and where my dad and uncle were working, and said, hey, you need to get them home right with So the neighbor didn't cross the street meeting.
That's how the word got them.
She starts telling the story that she was out back hanging clothes on the clothes line. Now where they lived, the house was right up against the pasture on just about all three sides. The road comes up on a hill, and then on the other side of these pastures.
Are these valleys and follows. It was just cattle in the pastures. She said.
She was out hanging until it was up on the line, and then she noticed that there was something out in the field out there in the pasture behind the house.
So she didn't really take much attention to it at first because the.
Cows were mus the brazen, they're just meander around and not moving a whole lot. She said, it wasn't moving, watching it quite a ways out there, so she didn't pay any attention. She goes along there, she's hanging up more closed, and she notices that it's getting a little bit closer to her.
She starts paying a little bit more attention to and she looks up every now and then sees that it's a little bit closer.
And then I'm not sure what it was, but she said, she looked up and she saw that this was not a cow. It was not a landa, was not a farmer out there looking forest cows. She said, this was a big, dark figure, black, just covered in hair, you know. She said, that's when she streaked out. She grabbed my cousin for the little girl and they ran inside. She said she would look out the window to see and
that's when she had made the phone come. During this time, she said it made its way over to the bottom, which was just on the other side of the house, maybe one hundred yards worth, and she said, went over there. She tried to watch for it, and it was best she could, but she was just scadled them, just shaking trimly. And she said, when this preacher went into the barn,
it came out with one of the bottle taps. They had probably half a dozen bottle taps in the barn, and she said it picked it up under its rn and step over the fence and more off back down into a thick and on the other side of the field, down into the hall. When we got there, my uncle, you were listening to this, my dad, They just said, okay, let's go check this out.
And they let us boys go out that too. So we're down here by the barn.
Now my answers in the house, she'd all along, come out and this is a Christian lady. It's audying her to tell a story. You're making anything up. We got to the barn and we didn't see tracks. I remember the feet princh because they had plunted them mount and my uncle was saying, yeah, one of the caps is gone.
Family.
The tracks meant exactly like mine. It had two of them that didn't looked down on the field, Uncle, my dad.
They grapped their.
John's and we went down through the fields and basically based that same pack.
Never found me any sign, never seeing anything else, and.
No other reports from the neighbors or anything, but the cap was definitely musten. There was definitely footprints there, and that was my first experience with the hopes no fip.
So from that on I fascinated with this subject.
Obviously you might not have known at the time because you were a kid, but did you ever have any follow up conversations with anybody in your family? Was Bigfoot or Sasquatch on the radar for them at that point in time, and did they give any credence to the fact that might have been what picked the calf up and took off with it.
Yes, and no, I remember a lot of the conversations going around them. Not that because there was another report not much later than that about a sighting in dutch Mill's Birkansas, where we lived in northeastern Okinghome. Dutch Mills was less than ten miles away to the state line, and this is northeast Okma, so you're in the foothills of the Osons. And that report was a farmer he had a chicken house broke into lake one night and
he went out with a shotgun. He foind out what was going on, if it was coyotes getting his chickens or what have you. But this was one of those houses that saw of the like sixty thousand chickens of them, so it's got the big galvanized metal doors that pulling out. I think the report was that this creature had broken the ad, grabbed some chickens and was leading and who said the farm word took a shot at it, and it had screened at him and turned and ran away
with some of the chickens. The door to the chicken house was actually ripped off the hinges, and that was in the couple of the newspapers at that time. And this was maybe a month or so after this report with my own aunt, so it was.
On everybody's ready arcave time. I'm not sure if.
It could have been something to do with the movie Legend of Body gree and that was everybody's little introduction to Bibbs Rock at that time.
But yeah, there was a lot of talk going on in the trimmunity.
Was that the end of your personal experiences or for the personal experiences and the people in your family?
That was it for the folks in the field? Now later and gone.
I've had a few other experiences to me because it's one of the things that I don't know. It was something that always stuck with me, So I was just always interested in there. So I had done some research to read a lot of books and different things like that.
But a little bit later on, after high school, I was actually a professionalizian, So I was out on the road by the high school, and one of the things that I'd love to do was to visit worth people from other states and different parts of the country and stuff and talk about that. And that introduced me to a lot of different people and about the same exact subject.
Wow, I met a lot of people.
From Ohnevi, Oklahoma, which is down south structure familiar with onevy, but the fantastic little town, if you can call it a town, there was a store, but I had a lot of experience for talking to a lot of people that had encounters. I've never had an account of myself one time there in old and I mean this was back when, oh gosh, the mid nineties.
We always roll.
Our food goos down there because there's a few hundred thousand and eight rooms, three rivers around in that area, and they did a lot of dry cutting back there, logging, so there's a lot of logging trails that ran all over those mountains. My buddies and I we would go down there and just ride full wheelers because one of them onto a small cabin up on the hill on
the mountain. We decided we're going to go down there one weekend, and I was going to meet them there because I had lived in still All, Oklahoma at that time and they lived in Tulsa. So we were just going to triangulate and meet there together. But at the same time for the weekend, there was about ten of us all together, but I was the only one coming from my direction. So I've got a truck with a
trailer on the back. I had three four wheelers on the back, and when I get there, started getting laid in the evening, I drive up on the mountain and turn off the road. When you turn off the road, it's just a it's a log cut road with chainsaws, and you're lucky to get through there.
It's just winding all back in there and stuff.
And you finally get to the cabin and I'm pulling a twenty foot trailer behind this.
Truck all these four wheelers on there. I gotta go really slow.
Now when I get down to the cabin, I have to try to back this thing in and get out of the way so that when they come in, they're going to do the same thing. It's just really tough hairpind turns here and there and stuff. So I get there.
And I'm waiting on the guys. I'm listening to the radio in.
The truck, just sitting there, and it's getting later and they're still not here. And it starts getting dark now up there in the mountains. If there's no moon on it or any stars out, you cannot see your hand in front of your face.
It is pitch black. That's the way it was that particular night.
So I'm sitting here and I had the truck running at first, but then I had turned it off. Your radio will stay on for fifteen minutes or so when it goes off like that. So I'm sitting here and the radio finally dies, and the dashlights go off too, and now I'm just from right into that pitch blackness. And of course we always rode down there. When we rode down there, it's always on the guys of hey, we're going to go big flying. That's just what we
do in old Nahdi. I'm sitting there waiting. Now it's pitch dark, and it's quiet, and you can hear the cicadas and the bullfrogs and different things like that.
Then all of a sudden, I hear this crunch, if you will.
Not too far from me where I'm sitting in the truss, And I thought, I wonder what that is?
And I thought, should I turn on the lights?
But if I turn on the lights, it's going to blind me too, because it's pitch black, you know how that is. I didn't want to turn on the lights, just check. So I'm sitting here and then I hear it again.
And then when I.
Heard it the next time, everything just went quiet, just super quiet, and there's no more rule frogs, nonmal crickets, no more cicadas, nothing, It's just it's quiet. The only thing that you could hear was the ticking of the engine as it's cooling down of the night and my windows are down, and I just I'm hearing this over to the side of me.
Now, I don't have a flashlight with me.
The only thing I did have was the headlights on the truck to turn them on, but I still didn't want to do that, so I thought, Okay, whatever it is, it's not coming over here. I'm in a four wheel drive truck. A few minutes later, I hear it again, but it's a lot closer. But this time the window in my truck where I'm sitting here, it just feels up. I didn't smell anything. You're just in closed like somebody just covered up that window. It was just like this muskiness.
But it wasn't a smell like what you'd associate with what the reports are, like a really bad odor or anything like that. It was just this muskiness and there was that window.
Was covered with something. That's the last thing I've remember.
The next thing I remember, I was sitting down ten miles away at the store, waiting on the rest of the guys to get.
There and stay tuned for more sasquatch out to see We'll be right back after these.
Messages everything in between there.
I have no idea how I got back through the woods with the trailer and the four wheelers all still attached back down there, I have no idea they were all memory of everything from that point to that point was gone.
To this day, I have no idea what I have. I don't know. That was just a pretty arrowing encounter. It scared me.
And I'm not afraid of the dark. I'm an avid hunter or an outdoorsement I'm out there all the time. It just nothing like that ever has ever scared me. But that night I was terrified, and I don't know what it was.
That is definitely not the first time I have heard heard of what I would consider And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you have a missing time situation where you're in an area where there's potentially sasquatch activity and then you can't
remember this stretch of time. Have you heard other experiences that people have shared with you, or if you heard of other experiences that you give credibility to where people have experienced something similar to that, where they have this missing time thing.
Yeah, there's been a couple after that, because I think at that point was when I really started diving more into this particular phenomenon with this whole time loss thing.
I did.
I talk to another lady at one point that was from that Fishermingo area, which is a little bit further on down south, something very similar happened to her where she had went out one night because the dogs were just going crazy. So she steps out onto her porch and she's looking around and she's walking around the house and she said she turned the corner and she saw something standing there, and the next thing she knew, she was back in the house. She was waking up, and
it had been several hours from that time. And this particular area is not that far away from where we were at in Jnah, And so those types of reports I've heard those as well. To me, that was a very credible report because she is not wanted to just to tell me things just to be heard, but it happened to her. She truly believed it, but she doesn't remember anything about it, is remember what she saw. I think there's a lot too there, But I think there's
something too about I don't know. It could be something that we do to protect ourselves, maybe the trauma so that we repress those memories or something.
So I think there's a lot to that.
I know your main gig here is being an author, but you do your own research, and you do look into these stories, You do look into this phenomenon. Is there anything that you go to do you go to say some of the Native American experiences, some of the
Native American history that's been passed down. I've literally read articles within the last year or so from Skeptical magazine that claims that there is nothing in the Native American history of any Native Americans that talk about Sasquatch or Bigfoot. But I know that's not true, right, Anybody who looks into this subject for five minutes can find numerous stories
and numerous references in the Native American culture. So I guess my question is do you take a stance or are you more open to all of the things, Because there's usually in this there's two camps, right, You've got the flesh and Blood camp. These things are some big, giant, hairy ape in the woods, and then you have the more wo or high strangeness or spiritual if you will to the research. Do you take either one of those approaches in your research or do you implore all of
that and looking into the subject. How do you approach the subject in your research? Is it more flesh and blood based, is it a mixture of or is it all more of the high strangeness.
I'll tell you speaking of the Native American approach, that's one of the things that is fascinated to me.
There's a lot of different Native.
American stories, especially in charity culture, because I've worked in the last twenty years from our tribe Charity Nation here at Oklahoma. And one of the things that really got me wanting to interview Cherokee people because if you look in my last two roll ups, most of those are all charity and citizens. One of the things that I really wanted to find out is prepared one type of showthlority you have about Pidfoot? So are there any stories in particular about a preaching like this.
One thing that I've found really fast moving.
Is that there all I know, particular stories about Bigfoot that have been handled down in the Cherokee notion.
Here we have it's all national treasures.
And these national treasures are basically people that helped gratuate the culture, that have retelled those little brothers in ark, helping to teach that to the intergenerations. A couple of those are storytellers now, treasure storytellers. And I've spoken that ninth of things about this and from the different stories that they've been told and passed down, there are none in the Church of the Nation.
However, within the Eastern.
Churchy band of Induans, which is who knows out and what, there is a story that comes forth to us. And that story was actually told back in the eighteen eighties by it and by James Mooney, doctor James Mooney, and it was recorded again the book History Notes and Sacred from him was of the charities and what James Mooney did. He was basically an an anthropologist anthemabologist, and he lived with the Cherokee people from about eighteen eighty seven about
eighteen ninety closer to nineteen hundred two. So during all this time as to living for Cherore people, he would collect their stories. He would write these down in doctriment these things. One of the stories in particular is about a preacher. Every bit described like Bigfoot would be to death.
And the preacher was called in the.
Book and it may be written down wrong. He may have reported the name incorrectness on how because the word is jude kalou juw kaloo. Now very interesting here because the story is that a young maiden still looked with her mother. The old woman was telling her that we need to find a husband. It's time for you to find that husband, but make sure he's a good honer.
So the ape it provides for the family. The maiden does find a husband, and the husband actually is a very glad owner, one of the greatest hunters, and he lives way of pineing the mountain. But she wants the meeting now, okay, so in order to meet him, he
has a few domains. She can't basically freak oltain the way he looks, so wose days there one night with his wife, gets up early the next morning the meet and mother, and the mother sees him and she's scared to death because the way he is described is that he was.
A giant covered in name, air, slokes, forehead, slamped in eyes, just huge.
I had to jump in here and give you all a little more background on this Judicaulu legend that Paul is referring to. I did some digging into Cherokee oral tradition, and honestly, this story is way more fascinating than I initially realized. Here's what I The Judiculu legend stands as one of the most captivating and enduring stories in Cherokee oral tradition, weaving together elements of the supernatural, the natural world, an ancient cultural memory into a tale that has fascinated
both Cherokee people and outsiders for generations. At the heart of this legend is Judiculu himself, a towering giant whose very name strikes a balance between the fearsome and the mysterious. The Cherokee knew him as zul Kalu, which translates roughly to slant eyed or he has them slanted, referring to his distinctive eyes that were said to be positioned at
an unusual angle. European settlers and later historians corrupted this name into Judahiculu, though the original Cherokee pronunciation carries far more weight and meaning within the cultural context. According to Cherokee tradition, Judahiculu was no ordinary giant. He was a supernatural being of immense power who ruled over the high mountains of what is now West Stern, North Carolina, particularly the area around the Balsam Mountains and the region that
would later be known as Jackson County. His domain was the realm where the physical and spiritual worlds intersected, where the rules of ordinary existence bent to accommodate his extraordinary nature. The legends described Judiculu as having seven fingers instead of five, with each digit possessing incredible strength. His size was so immense that he could stride from mountain peak to mountain peak as easily as a human might step from stone
to stone across a creek. When he walked, the earth trembled beneath his feet, and when he was angry, thunder would roll across the mountains even on clear days. His eyes, those distinctively slanted features that gave him his name, were said to glow with an inner fire that could be seen from great distances in the darkness. What made Judiculu particularly significant and Cherokee cosmology was his role as both
protector and potential threat. He was deeply connected to the hunt, serving as a guardian of the game animals in his mountain territory. Hunters who showed proper respect and followed traditional protocols might find themselves blessed with successful hunts under his watchful eye. However, those who violated hunting taboos, showed disrespect to the animals, or hunted too greedily would face his
terrible wrath. The most famous physical evidence of Judicula's presence is the Judiculu Rock, a massive soapstone boulder covered in petroglyphs that sits in what is now Jackson County, North Carolina. Cherokee tradition holds that these mysterious markings were made by Judicula himself when he leaped down from his mountain home, landing so hard that his seven fingered hands and feet
left permanent impressions in the stone. The rock, which archaeologists believe may contain some of the oldest petroglyphs in North America, serves as a tangible connection between the legendary past and the present day. The petroglyphs themselves tell their own story. Swirling patterns, human like figures, animal shapes, and abstract designs cover the boulder's surface in a complex tapestry that has
defied complete interpretation. Some Cherokee elders have suggested that these markings represent a form of ancient writing or map, possibly indicating hunting territories, seasonal movements, or spiritual boundaries. Others see them as Judiculu's own artistic expression, a giant's doodles left for posterity beyond the rock. Numerous geographic features throughout the Southern Appalachians bear witness to Judicula's legendary presence. Deep gouges and mountain sides were said to be the marks of
his fingernails as he climbed. Certain rock formations were believed to be his seats or sleeping places. Springs and streams in his territory were thought to be sacred places where he would drink or bathe. Even today, local names reflect this heritage. Judiculu's Chair, Judiculu Creek, and other landmarks keep the giant's memory alive in the landscape. The legend also
encompasses Judicola's interactions with the Cherokee people themselves. Unlike many giant figures in world mythology, who are portrayed as universally hostile to humans, Judiculu's relationship with the Cherokee was complex and nuanced. He could be benevolent to those who respected his domain and the natural world he protected. Stories tell of hunters who encountered him directly and lived to tell the tale, often because they had demonstrated proper reverence for
the animals they pursued and the land they traversed. However, Judiculu's justice could be swift and terrible. Tales speak of hunters who violated sacred protocols, disappearing without a trace in his mountains, or of those who showed disrespect, finding their weapons mysteriously broken or their hunting ground suddenly devoid of game. He was particularly vigilant about protecting pregnant animals and young offspring, and those who killed them out of s or unnecessarily
might find themselves facing supernatural consequences. One particularly rich vein of Judiculu stories involves his role in shaping the landscape itself. Cherokee tradition credits him with carving out valleys, moving rivers, and even creating some of the distinctive rock formations that characterized the southern Appalachian region. When he was pleased, the land would flourish with abundant game and fertile soil. When angered,
he might cause landslides, floods, or other natural disasters. The legend also incorporates elements of star lore and cosmic connection. Some versions of the story suggest that Judiculu came from the sky world, connecting him to Cherokee astronomical traditions and seasonal ceremonies. His slanted eyes were sometimes said to reflect his ability to see into other worlds or to perceive
things hidden from ordinary vision. As European colonization intensified and Cherokee people were increasingly displaced from their ancestral lands, the Judiculu legend took on new dimensions. Some stories began to incorporate the giant as a protector, specifically against foreign intrusion, a supernatural guardian who would ultimately defend Cherokee territory against outside threats. The legend thus became not just a story about the past, but a source of hope and resistance
for the future. The forced removal of the Cherokee people during the Trail of Tears in the eighteen thirties might have marked the end of active connection to Judicula's territory. But the legend persisted in Cherokee communities wherever they relocated. Elders continued to tell the stories, and the memory of the great giant remained alive in tribal consciousness even as the people were separated from the physical landscape of his domain.
In more recent times, the Judiculu legend has experienced something of a renaissance. Archaeological investigations of the Judiculu Rock have brought new attention to the site, while Cherokee cultural preservation efforts have worked to document and share traditional stories with new generations. The North Carolina mountains that were once Judiculu's exclusive domain now welcome visitors who come specifically to learn about Cherokee heritage and to see the mysterious petroglyphs for themselves.
Modern Cherokee storytellers continue to adapt and retell the Judiculu legend, sometimes incorporating contemporary concerns about environmental protection and cultural preservation. In these newer versions, Judiculu's role as a guardian of the natural world resonates with current struggles to protect wilderness
areas and maintain traditional relationships with the land. The legend has also captured the imagination of non Cherokee audiences, inspiring artists, writers, and researchers who see in Judiculu's story universal themes about humanity's relationship with nature, the power of place, and the importance of respecting the world around us. However, Cherokee communities have worked to ensure that this its broader interest doesn't come at the expense of cultural authenticity or appropriate respect
for tribal traditions. Today, the Judiculu Rock remains a focal point for both Cherokee cultural activities and public education. The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, along with various preservation organizations, work to maintain the site and provide interpretation that honors both the archaeological significance of the petroglyphs and their continuing
importance in Cherokee's spiritual and cultural life. The enduring power of the Judiculu legend lies not just in its entertainment value, but in its function as a bridge between past and present, between the physical and spiritual worlds, and between Cherokee people and their ancestral landscape. In an age when many Indigenous stories have been lost or forgotten, Judiculu's tale continues to thrive, carrying forward ancient wisdom about respect, responsibility, and the sacred
nature of the world around us. Whether one approaches the legend as mythology, as cultural heritage, or as a window into pre Columbian spirituality, the story of Judahculu offers rich insights into Cherokee worldview and values. It reminds us that the landscape itself can be a repository of memory and meaning, and that some stories are powerful enough to survive centuries of change while continuing to speak to new generations about timeless truths. Now back to Paul's stories and stay tuned
for more sasquatch out to see. We'll be right back after these messages.
Everything about this story, if you are asked in with the charity people, now, it's not it. That's something else, a supernatural beat. But everything about it is Bidbrooke. He lives up with an nowts is great hunter, but in the end of the story goes away with his wife and his family.
We are not to be to see him again as long as he wants us to.
So everything about that story says speaks of it well, the word it said of Juke Kololoo.
It's really just it's jibberish.
It's put together Cherokee a syllabarry, so it doesn't really mean anything. But what's really interesting about this there's also this pretrick Bluh in North Carolina called Judah Cooula rock Julah Coula so Juke Coloo. The similarities are there, but the better bliss are said to me about two thousand years old and they're Cherokee.
So it's a very interesting store.
Oh c O TV.
Jennifer lorrens that paper show they had a sad but on that rock itself, it is a national historical landmark there, So I think that's this very telling me in on itself. So June Talou or Judahkula same thing, So there's a lot of similarity there to that.
That's why I have really.
Dedicated to my stuff to interviewing Cherokee, was to find out what kind of experiences they've and what kind of storms have been passed down.
That's just like the being hidden in their construct.
We're very glorld tradition struck, so all these stories are passed down in generation generation.
I live in North Carolina, so you've given me a rabbit hole to go down. I'm already wanting to get on Google and see how far away I am from this rock, because I'm going to go down that and see maybe if I can make a pilgrimage up to check it out. Yes, in your research, I guess I'll get more pointed here in your research. As far as looking into this subject, I think it's an evolution for us.
I know I've been in the subject since I was twelve, and that's a lot of years ago at this point, because I think I had an experience back when I was twelve years old. But I have evolved over the years. I started off very staunch. I'm a sixteen year law enforcement veteran, so I have nuts and bolts kind of brain when it comes to anything in life, particularly this kind of subject. So I'm very skeptical. I've had my
own experiences. I got to see these things three times last year in two days, so I had a huge epiphany for me because I was very skeptical. I was fifty to fifty whether these things ever existed, and then I got to see them last year. So I am one hundred percent nowhere. But I still think there is there's no thinking. I know there are camps in Bigfoot where people lean more towards the flesh and blood versus the high strangeness, or maybe metaphysical beings, or there's portals.
Involved, maybe aliens involved.
I always started, I planted my flag firmly in the flesh and blood camp until I had some of my experiences last year. I've talked about it before openly. One of those experiences was I had a daylight siding of one of these things peaking around a tree, and then I had two very close encounters, one from about twenty feet away, the other one was ten feet away at night the following day. But part of that was seeing
self illuminating white eyes. I saw two sets of large self illuminating eyes, and this thing was bobbing and weaving back and forth like many anybody who's ever taken a bigfoot encounter, if you take ten, there's probably going to be one of them bobbing and weaving in some shape form or fashion. Sure, So after those experiences, I really walked away feeling like there may be more to these
creatures than I was giving credit in the beginning. I still think they can be flesh and blood creatures just like you and I, with maybe some superabilities like glowing eyes. Because here's the thing we've done entire shit. I host multiple podcasts, obviously, that Bigfoot podcast is another show that I do with my co host Wayne.
Wayne and I have talked about this.
We had a PhD on and had a conversation about how can these things basically define nature?
Right?
Because if you look at nature and known creatures, right, a gazelle is one of the fastest creatures on Earth. But by and large, if a gazelle encounters a tiger or a bear that's much bigger and stronger, the gazelle becomes prey. If they're caught, they're overpowered because they're not
fast and strong. So to doctor Cherau, the PhD that we had on to doctor Cherrou's point, how can Bigfoot be the biggest, fastest, strongest, stealthiest, all of the abovest thing in nature and still be a physical creature.
That's always made me think.
But obviously, after I had my own personal experiences where I saw this thing's eyes glowing, two sets of glowing eyes, I walked away from that reevaluating where I was on the subject. I'm not saying I'm moving that flag necessarily from staunchly flesh and blood to maybe something else. But where are you and how do you reconcile those kind of stories in your research? Do you think it's possible? And obviously this is a very subjective question. I don't mean to put you on the spot. There is no
right answer going into this. But where are you personally? Are you on a similar journey where you adjust as new information comes in or are you stuck in one place or the other versus saying blesh and blood versus maybe something else.
Yeah, I think I'm a lot.
It's where you were at because for the longest time I firmly believe that this is something that it's completely inflesh and blood. But the more and more that I had really recently talked to different people and recording these different encounters and witnesses, there's so many other elements that go into it. When you think of me, I do believe some people are just more attuned to certain I don't have supernatural type things like, for instance, spirits in
the spirit world. When you're talking about that, especially with the Native American tribes, there are a lot of supernatural beats, different creatures and different things like that. And then when you talk to other witnesses that talk about their encounters, that the different things that they experienced during that encounter. It's a very physical thing, but it's also very emotional and somewhat supernatural. There's got to be that element tude because there's something else.
There that I don't know is.
I'm not really sure how to explain it, but I really think that some people are more susceptible to those types of things, that can see those things, where other people will just gloss right over that. So I'm at that camp that there's something more.
To it than just flesh and blood. So what is that?
I don't know what the extent of that is yet. I think that's the interesting part of it. The exciting part about that is trying to figure that part out.
That's exactly where I am, man. I've said it so many times. I used to be really and I still am to some degree into the evidence part of it. I love to say, see video, I love to see photographs, I love to see footprints cast The footprints are probably my favorite thing to look into. But at the same time, those things have failed to prove anything over the course
of the last fifty sixty years. That we've been looking into this, and I've said it before openly, I've admitted my own faults in this, and I've admitted my change and shift in my perception because I think, and honestly i've said this before, I think people who are looking into this objectively for the right reasons, as you get new information in, you have to shift your thinking, you
have to shift your hypothesis. If you stick to one thing and you're so rigid in your beliefs that you never change, I don't think you're growing, and I don't think you're learning anything. So you can't dismiss wholeheartedly or as a group collectively, all of this other information that comes in. I think you do yourself and the subject a real disservice as far as I'm concerned. So I'll get off my high horse, I'll get off my soap by let's shift gears. As a fellow author, I put
out two books in the last two years. I am always fascinated with people who write about this subject and frankly anything. So let's transition and talk about your books. At what point did you get in your research where you decided to start writing about these things? And let's talk about your first book and kind of move chronologically
through those books. Because I know you have several that are out there, I certainly want to give you opportunity to talk about those and what was the process behind them, what was the impetus for you writing those books, and what can people expect when they go out and pick them up.
My first book was actually a fictional book because it's obviously the whole thing about Bigfoot. There's so many stories that I've collected over the years. I'm a storyteller myself. I love that whole aspect of it. So the first two books, the Hawthorn Leg series, was just a really fun introduction into writing, because that was the I think the fun and exciting part about this, the whole thing
about being in college. I want to write that great American novel may not be necessarily the Great American novel, but it is something that I've found very relatable to my life growing up and all these different stories that I've collected and my Native American background. So I wanted to put that into a story, all of these different things that folks that I've talked to over the years, the different tribe that I've talked to, not just from Cherokee,
but from the Comanchee. I've got friends that are Navado, friends that are Peoria and Seneca and kick a Poo. So I've collected so many different stories of this is a great opportunity just that has a really fun outlet for that, because I'm sure that you understand you have to have that outlet too. You can take all this in, but if you don't have that creative outlet, what do you do with it? It stays pent up. So that was my first two books, the Hawthorn Leg Series Siege Hawthorn Lake.
But then all of these.
Other stories and stuff when I've really started dedicating myself to trying to some of those little ribbons that connect us with the Cherokee stories and our ancestors and stuff.
Those were the non fiction. That's the volume one, Volume two that I've done.
Now, I've interviewed so many different folks, and I've also filtered through a lot of different interviews and stuff too to get to the ones that I've got in the books now, the ones that I did put them to paper on. These are some really fascinating stories and some really fascinating people that I've able to talk to and they're all Cherokee Nation citizens, and stay tuned.
For more Sasquatch out to see. We'll be right back after these messages.
The next thing that I really want to progress this and start talking to other Cherokee from the Eastern Band because when we're removed from our homelands, I think a lot of those original stories were lost to us here in Oklahoma, but the Eastern Band and still retain. It's a lot of that knowledge and a lot of that history.
So I want to take this what we have here and really compare and contrast back to what they have back east, because like I said, I think there's so many other stories out here right now.
It's not documented. It's not been.
Recorded except for in James Mooney's book that one story that we've found. But now there's also lots of other theories. The challenge we have there's a lot of different riches, a lot of different natural beatings, like the little suits those folks, so that's one of folks.
Will end tell them where the best place for them to go pick them up?
Yeah, they can all be found on Amazon under my author title They're running out Explicive with Amazon.
That's excellent. I will make it easy for everybody. I will put the link right there in the show notes. All you got to do is click it and go pick up all five books, Read every single one of them.
Take it all in. Paul, Thank you so much for.
Coming on the show and tell them this year experiences and talking about the books and all of your vast knowledge.
Man, I've had a blast talking to you.
Thank you so much for having me on, Brian, It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. They say you don't gotta go home, but you can't.
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