SO EP:498 Texas Bigfoot Panel

Today, I want to tell you about a journey that I've been on for most of my life. Ever since I was a kid, I've heard tales of bigfoot and wild men while spending time with my friends and family. As I grew older and read more about the paranormal, my interest in cryptids and other things strange only deepened. That's why I'm so excited to share with you what

Today.

Hey everybody, this is Left Striving Yes, yes, I know aka Survivor Man, and you're listening to Brian on Sasquatch Odisty.

Hey there, and welcome back to Sasquatch Odyssey. Thank you so much for clicking play. It is Sunday. I hope you've had an amazing weekend. We have a phenomenal show lined up for you. But as always, I want to start by inviting you. If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email you get me at Brian at Paranomoworldproductions dot com. Can head over to the website, check it out, become a member there and help support the show. I tease

It is a.

Phenomenal lineup that they have on this amazing roundtable discussion, and I brought it to you today because it's so interesting to me that we're talking eleven years ago some of the discussions around DNA and evidence and the things that we're going on back then are still up for discussion today, and I think it's a really cool opportunity for us to look at what's happening today versus back in twenty thirteen with some of these juggernauts in the

All you have to.

Do is sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

Hey there, it's Brian. What you're going to hear today is something a little different. This is the panel discussion that followed the recently concluded Texas Bigfoot Conference in Fort Worth, Texas. On the panel were Josh Gates, Kathy Strain, Alton Higgins, Lyle Blackburn, Bill Muns, Darryl Collier, Jeff Meldrum, and me. We were moderated by Mike Mays, who blogs as the Texas krypted Hunter on the Internet. This is basically questions that were submitted by the audience, so we cover a

Hope you enjoy it. Here it is My name's Mike Days.

I'm a member of the board of directors groups formerly now and as the tv RC are.

Now the North American Wooded Conservancy.

You had the opportunity throughout to day to fill out one of these cards with questions of the pane, off of the speakers, and for members of the group. So I'm just going to go through them, some addressed specifically to an individual, summer to the whole panel. So we'll just keep going right now, mister Gates, is personalness for you.

You gets a warm zone.

It says what situation has been the most threatening to you during your filming destination truth.

We get the roof rip off of an airplane in flight in Romania. That is usually my goats and answer for that, when you are flying in a plane and suddenly you are outdoors.

Something as general at your flight.

So I think that was probably our nat to Chernobyl.

Probably it's at both sides of that remains to be seen. That's going to be a long time for decades. I think that's a pretty satisfactory answer. Roof or it's off plane. No way to compete to an answer, dude, all.

Right, this one's addressed to the entire panel. So of anyone that feels strong about it, please take a stab in this. What do you think is the strongest reason no one has been able to produce any physical proof that the Sasquatch exists.

I'm not gonna say I have after you answered this, but I want to differentiate between proof and evidence. There's evidence that something can be, and then there's proof that something can be. And no, we don't have proof, but we have a lot of evidence. That evidence comes in the form of footprints, that evidence comes in the form of photographs, that it comes in the form of viable hairs. It sounds none of these things are proof, but they are all evidence that there's something there.

I was just gonna say they any gooble accounts thatts Vulman methods as well.

It may not be the most reliable, but it.

Is a vulner Methodence, why don't be a difference.

Yeah, I'm guessing here.

But I'm going to assume what they were really after is why no physical remains.

That sort of thing. Anybody elaborate on that.

If this is an analogy of an answer, it's really is something that I was actually talking with two ladies that they're sitting there now. Last night at the smaller meetings we had, I was talking about how there are these like brain teaser puzzles, as little twined uses a metal. You pick it up and you try to unhook the two pieces of metal if you can play with it for hours and you can't make it work, and then somebody comes along and says, just twist it and you slide it.

And it's solved.

And you watch them do that, and you wonder, why didn't you see it those hours you were trying to untangle these two square the little pieces of metal. For myself personally, all big the phenomenon, I know, it's a mystery. I don't have an explanation for it. Why there isn't more advancement, physical remainings and things like that, I have

And I think when we underst.

Stand it, suddenly the evidence will start appearing, and then when we look back on it, we'll realize we just didn't see one part of the puzzle.

Now, exactly what the part is we won't know until.

We see it, of course, but there's one little piece of the puzzle missing, and when we have that one piece, the physical evidence will start showing up.

We'll know where to look, we'll know what it is, we know.

How to determine it, we'll know how to separate it from something that's faked, and once we reach that point, suddenly it'll all become clear why we had so much trouble finding the evidence before. So for me personally, that would be how I would.

Look at it.

Answering that question. We know it's a mystery, we know we haven't figured it out yet, we're just missing one little bit of the pieces, and when we have it, it'll all come together and we'll be able to entangle the mystery effortlessly.

That's my shot.

I would just add that's very true, and if you apply that particular way. Part of that equation isn't necessarily a mystery than just a lack of information. Some of that information we actually have. We have physical evidence in the form of hair. There's no question that something is shedding hair that continues to define attribution to any commonly known qualify and ven Bear's remarkable resemblance to human and

Most of the hair that.

Is shed naturally has a quiescent or an inactive follicle. When you find hair in your brush or in your drain, in your shower.

That's hair that.

Is simply falling out because the follicle has shrunk up and the hair slips out and then a new shaft begins to grow. That's happening all the time with you and other animals. So much of the hair that's found out in the environment doesn't have a clump of rapidly dividing growing cells that it's root.

So we rely on the.

Cells that are stacked up in the central core or modulla in order to derive hair. But some animals have an a cellular modula, a core that is essentially hollow, that has no stacked of dead cells. So all you have is a shaft which is the tusks the remains of dead cells stacked together with very little DNA.

Is any dnare, but recent.

The advances have improved the probability of getting DNA out of that very barren hair shaft, and those techniques are being employed by doctor seishin of those thirty hair samples that he has.

Hopefully something will put the forthcoming.

But as far as other physical remains of a corpse, it's really not that mysterious. If you talk to people who are familiar with the circumstance of the fate of remains of animals in the wild, it's not really surprising we haven't found the remains of a very rare, very large, very long lived animal, an animal that would be at the top of its food chain, would have no natural predators, a population for which I definitely be a.

Very rare event. And when it.

Occurs, since it occurs naturally, those individuals secure themselves off and out of the way place I often site. We had a cat one time who got in a fight with a neighbored cat and he got the worst of it, and he disappeared, and he was gone. We thought, I'm not a sign of it for three days until the fourth day he emerged from under the master bedroom a bed where he'd been hiding, licking his wounds all that time.

So animals will do that when they're old, when they're increditive, when.

Death is near, they tend to secrete themselves off somewhere unless they're taken by a pretator. And then secondly, you combine that fact, the natural history fact with the organic or biologic and eight biologic factors of the environment which we find them, which is principally wet coniferous forests, oftentimes in the city northwest in volcanic soils, both of which

So what the chewers and gnawers.

And pack brats go and carry off is quickly deteriorated and dispatched by the physical elements of the environment.

To I often point to.

The fact that we have a day a giant tape on the order of Bigfoot that occupied eastern China for a million and a half years.

I think about that a million and a half years.

And yet for that entire tenure we have watch to show for it, and that two jaws and about a thousand isolated teat, all of which are found in Karst caves in Limestope caves, where they had then carried five porcupines. Now in China, porcupines are only below the Yellow River. There are caves in the northern part of China, but there are no Gigantiisicus fossils from there. Because you're missing one of the two critical elements to concentrate the skeletal remains.

You're missing the porcupine.

If it weren't for the action that cork, fine, we wouldn't know nothing about this gigantic thousand pounds eight that persisted for a million and a half years in China.

There's a lot of biases in the environment.

There's a lot of reasons why we don't necessarily have remains of the sepot.

I was gonna say everything that Jeff said.

You wouldn't said it much better. That's what I had to that.

The other element that was necessary for that was that humans d declined the grave reception that there is this grand search for this species.

That is not the case. It's never been the case. There's just not a.

Huge amount of people that are out searching for this end. Go to the Big Thicket National Preserve in Salad States, ask them for a permanent to conduct big Foot re search and see what they tell you from we know first end because this happened to us. So there's just the search is not there. There are many people doing this and it's never been that way. Benjamin Radford talks about all these people Benjamin Rappords have known skeptic talks about all these people throughout the last four or five

Statistically speaking, nobody's looking for bic clar nobody.

You've got fifty people in the NAWAC, half of which are going on a regular basis of doing it. That's fifty people. Maybe there's another one hundred people in the state of Texas didn't as much.

As we are.

I don't think there's anything more than that. So why don't you find it? Because statistically speaking, nobody's looking for one.

More reason, I think that, yes, why I think there's ignorance. Not to be consulting, but I think it's very likely that there have been people who have stumbled across the skeletal remains of a dem You wouldy, but you have to have someone who recognizes the significance of what they're seeing, and was it the skull or something the bones that they say that. I don't think that the vast majority of people would recognize the significance of the bones.

Saying, oh, big animal is dead.

And I think people underestimating the animal as well, and that plays into it. People have this perception it's a big, lumbering, slow creature. That's entirely untrue if you look at some of the more incredible reports. But these guys are seeing these animals are highly intelligent. They're very fast, you're efficient, and and they want to get out of site and they can. How the way says, oh, everybody's got a cell phone camera, how hard wouldn't be to get a picture?

One last thing I just saw on the point of the camera. You can do this at all. This is a little Hoole experiment. If you've got a kid, it's perfect for that because they can be your big flub.

Right.

What you can do is you can have a camera sitting on.

The table next to you, have it turned off because they're probably not gonna leave your camera turnout all the time, and have them does a random moments run out from behind a ouch or something, and how many times.

They do that before you actually get a picture, and how.

Long they have to be visible to you before you grab your camera on, pull it up, focus and pull a picture. And is everything we've experienced. These sightings happen in moments, they're over in seconds. You're talking about something that has to go on for ten, fifteen, twenty seconds. Those kind of encounters just don't happen.

Or they happen so frequently. Is to be just not that that's every marking, especially here in the day. And then of course you have delight exactly right right, you have devil likes.

Well, I should point out that's probably the only kind of research that should practice on your children. There's one basically directed in our group. With as many rock running incidence as we've experienced during operations, endurance and persistence are there any plans to put up cameras around the cabin and the surrounding close by areas?

If so, could you go into that? And if not, why not?

Between two thousand and six and two thousand thirteen we invested roughly fifty thousand dollars and the best cameras at our Commercion move out.

I will tell you now, we have zero pictures of this. That's one of the things we don't know. We don't know.

Incredible good luck on their behalf, in credible bad luck on our behalf.

Maybe they are wary of cameras. Alpha coyote males tend to be.

There's some recent studies to show that maybe it's a combination of camera technology is still not where it needs to be.

And I could send that with some authority. Because I've watched a black.

Bear for two minutes stand and just move around, sniff between three RECONINGX cameras right in the center of me.

I'm not the only one that saw it.

Milke masers there, Todd's six hundred dollars cameras.

Three six hundred dollars cameras. You get so many pictures we got in that black bear.

Zero with that, instances where we walk in front of the cameras to change the cameras out and the camera doesn't get a picture of us. So we're very frustrated. But I will tell you that we've sold almost.

All of our cameras. We've only got a few lift.

Now we're looking at some sort of surveillance system, a passive surveillance system. It's not triggered by ideed, it's not triggered by motion, it's constantly going. Hopefully that provide some footage, but as many there are a number of us who don't believe footage is to do the trick signs requires its best.

What we would have used the cameras for is to understand how they're moving around the cabin. We know they're out there, we know they're moving around, whether it's a cabin or temp or whatever. In this case, it's a pick structure, so we get attach cameras to it. We need to know how they're doing it. It's part of what's going to ultimately solve this mystery that we're looking at different systems. Of course, we have problems out there

We invested last year Robbers Persistence. We invested in a really hot dollar I was going to say, a solar power generation system. I gotta tell you a the three days we were ready to keep that thing at the river into.

The crea because it just it.

Wasn't keeping up with our power requirements. We couldn't keep the stuff charged. We couldn't keep our own personal cameras charge, we couldn't keep audio of would be charged. So it's quite a challenge in an environmental dad, and you're on a shoe string budget and you're trying to keep everything operating in the image, it's quite a challenge.

I was going to say that the one way we could raise money is by field testing pables stuff like that. We had one of these things that looked up to a solar thing. The battery was full charger. I plugged my computer and in it was suck a drying meat and it was gone, Yeah, we're on the laptops out with being canned. Electricity is a huge challenge for us out there.

I point out too, we're operating in an area where we know there are mountain mins. We've never gotten one picture of a mountain line either, and they do exist. Okay, mister Gates says, it's for you if you ever realized you were being intentionally host and so what did you do about it?

Only once we did a story on the Lizard Band of South Caroline, South Caroline, and I am here to tell you that I found believing the lizard Man.

So stay tuned for more sasquatch out to see. We'll be right back after these messages.

Well, it was, I mean, a really interesting thing.

We we went there and we started talking to all these different people in the story find it became clear, at least to me, it became clear what had happened.

And then it became very clear off camera what what it happened.

It fell to the end, like doing an expose on Bishop, South Carolina, which has a kind of geeking out a.

Little bit of tourism and stuff. Office I think Jimmy retired share Oh you're listen. Truth Trus somewhat solicite, true Tree dwn Tree.

Zi, Yeah, it's truth Dale.

Yeah.

That was the only time that I think we knowing we were being played a little bit, But in the end it felt like it didn't.

Really seem like a nice thing could do to tear the story down.

I was advited to be an expert consultant on another story, a similar story at the same place, but a different dog, fum Manry. They provided me with pictures of this footprint. If you haven't seen it, it's this strange multilobed thing that ends in three segmented toes, radiate out and then

And I showed how an animal that.

Had only three toes would not have a black foot and it would be unprecedented. I even had a whole litany of illustrations of claw marks bare claw marks on trees, blck bear claw marks in clay, et cetera, especially once in clay, were interesting.

Showed the anatomy of the.

Claw with its ungule and subungule, and how it has this kind of hollowed out very underneath, and it has a very distinctive pattern.

In the way which in claws.

So flipped through and explained it almost to the good retired sheriff, and I pointed out, I said, well, honestly, these opes like claw marks at all. They were made by a boy knife. I said, I have to say, I'm just afraid that there's no credibility to this. And he just looks at me with this a big old sudden smile and said, thank you very much.

So I'm for your cou I really appreciate. And then later over in the corner of the producers are sitting there trying to stifle their their laughter, and they came up to me afterwards. He said, oh, no, that's great. You did a great job.

He said, we already knew it was all hosed, and the fellow of the debuty who was responsible for making the tracks that already admitted it to us, and the guy that claimed the trim on the car and didn't shoot up the river to port who in jail so he couldn't contend appear on the namp. It was either the neighbor's dog or a raccoon and then shoot up in the grill. So I was like, I was entertainment.

Then you're right.

Apparently the sheriff had gone around town and said, okay, just go along with the story.

Right for tourists, he was a lizard.

Man parade, one of the food branks get a local bravery, and he can't.

Experience with the sheriff who I didn't believe my story for once, but it's okay.

Kathy, is this for you?

Is there any evidence of tool use a big foot similar to that that you've seen chimpanzees, or possibly even more advanced tool.

Use than that, not be anybody's identified.

I spend three days in areas and I took the loved them around the area. Actually didn't see any artifacts at all, even human made artifacts except for one strange possible petroglyph. But there was no evidence of any kind of grass use or state modification or anything like.

That except for rocks themselves and whatever they hit the treats with their tools.

Maybe you could just what would be a loose definition of a tool.

What constitutes just a stick on the ground versus being a tool of some kind.

It needs to be modified, and simply picking up a rock and flinging them together it's not modified or using them two objects, not changing them in any way. It's not enough to prove that you have the function of a line to mangels. I'm not saying they do or don't. I don't know, but I didn't see anything like that.

I know at one.

Point, Peace of Firewood had moved from the dead patio and was moved over to an area and laid against a tree. And when they demonstrated the firewood up against the tree and made the exact same sound of a tree knock that people have been hearing.

So that's very clever.

But they didn't modify in itself in order to create the tool.

If Kathy would be if they tore a limb off of the tree and used that deep the tree, would that be the modification you're talking about.

It would be primitive enough. They trying to create something. They didn't just pick it up off the ground, use.

It, throw it back down.

Yeah, okay, doctor Meldrid this was for you.

I'm assuming this is referring to one of the Monster Quest episodes that you peered in. Is are you going back to the cabin where you had the most big foot action, rocks were thrown, etc.

After the episode in which the rocks were thrown at the cabin, did go back, but it was a very different set of circumstances.

We were a little bit earlier in the season that spring was unseasonably cool, and.

People had commented as well as we drove up through Minnesota, the blueberry festivals were all crank.

They were going to have to.

Actually truck blueberries up from the sound because they hadn't runten yet. It had an impact on us because but we got upen to Central Ontario, the understory, which was about twenty to forty percent blueberry, it weren't even in flower yet and so there.

Was no right fruit.

As a result of that coolness and low productivity, there was a very little wildlife activity, just had a sense of being deserted. So after days and days we had all these rand schemes of these observation tents, blackouts and things.

Surveyance cameras attached to every corner of the cabin.

Nothing was happening, And then it happened that one of the pilots stopped in to pick up some fuel and he said, oh yeah, there was just a story on the radio that there was exciting grassy and arrows down on the reservation, which was about two hundred and fifty miles southwest of US. With the little Afterloving crew, we would pulled up steaks and we went in the south went and investigated that.

It was a very good, very credible visual.

Contact by an elderly woman and her adult daughter who were on their way up to pick blueberries.

They were right been there. There was a big clear cut area that had overgrown blueberries.

And it was due forourns luscious growth I've seen on the way out. They had a signing and saw this creature walking down the road as soon as he saw the car, and it just veered off the road into the brush. Her adult son came up that afternoon to the approximate area and found some tracks which he made a cast of.

They turned out to be bare unfortunately, And I do.

Think based on interview about the two women that their story was very credible.

There were bear tracks all over the place. You couldn't help it.

Stumble on bear tracks because they were attracted to their blueberries as well.

I just chalked it up to the fact that he stopped the.

First tracks he found, which happened to be there, and there was an old overstep print that gave the impression of any long ended sasquash track.

It was very easy to point out that the characters that distinguished it, and.

I'm asked this repeatedly in followed upon that episode. They did send some of the evidence, some of the tissue that was collected on the first episode for a follow up. By that time the results came back as bacteriative DNA. There was no private the evening to be extracted.

I was amazed that they got anything in the first line. I actually mentioned any whether.

That might have been some an intamination due to the extensive handling of the smiths. And you have to realize that Screwmore was leaning up against the cabin out in the elements.

For two years before we examined it, so it had been exposed as well. And whether the elements the u uraniation of the sunlight, I didn't expect them to find anything.

I don't think there's any magical about that cabin, and I have no plans to go back because just I think.

That every once in a while, once.

In a blue moon, they get lucky because some of the animals they're conditioned.

They have this unusual habit there.

When the tenants check out in the cabin, rather than carry out all the perishable foods, there's actually a post sign right there by the refrigerator that says, throw all your perishables, bread, vegetables, fruit out behind the outhouse, which is about fifty sixty yards behind the cabin at the edge of the forest. It would take long to condition a few animals bears and baby sash watching the scene.

Us, so let's go check it out. I've had people suggest that.

They wanted to rend the cabin through the entire summer. I hope you like to fish, because you're going to have a lot of time on your edge.

You can't go anywhere in that terrain.

It's just extremely thick jungles, crevice and crack and filled with Moss and you could see us a couple of shots on the documentary where I'm walking out to foot up the camera and just about bringing my legs that be hit a popple.

It travels security quite both Tom the legs portages. It was interesting place. The next one is for mister Mounds. If push came to show, could you or someone else have created Patterson Gimlin footage? And it's a part too. What is the earliest known use of a costume skin.

That could stretch and compress in a special effects field that you're aware of.

It's marginal if a perfect Patty could be done today.

The head is still problematic.

It's small and the only thing we can do we wh make a mask is to add to the head of a human being, So we.

Try to make something looks smaller by adding somewhere else.

I had kids bigger.

Pattie's head is remarkably small in compact for her body, but it's very non.

Human and it's form with a heavy braw ridge and the heads.

On a straight back, So that part of Patty probably still.

Couldn't be done today with any of the technology that we have. Get it any human and get it to look right. The rest of the body could be done. It would certainly not be easy. It would take a remarkably talented person or team of people, because actually there are very few makeup artists who actually can do everything start to finish. Nowadays, almost everything is done by teams of specialists. When sculps, when molds, when cast figure finishes, when does the erwork, one trims and.

Pain set, one does the pain job it's on.

So it's actually rather rare for even one person to have a complete skill set. But if they were to attempt it today, even with all the material advances more sophisticated than what was in nineteen sixty seven, I would have to say, the head is still all but impossible. If you really are talking about getting the right size and the right shape, and do look at what we see in the film, I'd still say, there's your stumbling book.

I have no solution for, and trust me, in the last five years.

Every day I went to that picture I've said, okay, it's a host. How would I do it?

And I keep drawing the black That'd be my question number one. I don't think anybody can figure out how to make the head the shape and size that it is in proportionable body. In terms of materials, all of the new materials, the stretch materials. In terms of stretch fur, there are a lot of resonance compounds now that could produce some breast across thesis that has the motion that you saw where then you're using it extensively on.

Going to call Norwood.

When he made it, Eddie Murphy play himself as well as his fat girlfriend and full body soup was made out of these residant compounds of Ejping Company makes. They were remarkable in terms of the labbiness and there were responsiveness of practice. So those things are available now, but those rest of compounds didn't even start being introduced until the late eighties, didn't become well refined until the nineties.

Yeah, that's about it.

A lot of people probably know that Philip Morris claims to have made the suit that Roger Patterson used because he was a makro of costumes. Guerrilla Costume actually interviewed Philip Morris about this and challenged him.

On some of the aspects, but suffice to.

Say, they tried to recreate the suit, even blow of heart, Philip Morris trying himself in which they were going to air.

I believe it was on National Geographic.

So we made this new suit that was supposed to be just like what he was making then, although it didn't look anything like the gorilla costumes he was making back in the sixties. But in that film they were gonna air him. This was going to blow the whole thing. It looks so horrible that they do a documentary right up to the point where they're going to show you his new, brand new suit. It's going to disprove the whole thing. They showed a Patterson film because the thing

It's entering.

They end up showing the patch of films. So these will say. Even Philip Morris, who claimed he made the suit, could not even reproduce the suit in recent times.

And no one's been able to show us that suit either.

He told me he knows where the suit is. It's in the hand of some He wouldn't give me a name. I said, man, you show me the suit, we can solve it right now. He said, maybe sometimes that person wants to come.

Forward, but so far they don't show me the suit.

Okay. This one is a question for Brian Brown and doctor Meldrum.

Is the taking of a specimen necessary to prove the existence of Bigfoot to science, and if so, do you advocate the taking of sid.

Specimen I'll go first.

I'm not a scientist, but I can speak to what I have learned and try to answer this question myself. I think that it is possible to prove the existence of an animal without taking a specimen. I think that the problem is when you go beyond that no, to say, let's just get there are issues with DNA there, as I touched on and mean in my presentation, you have to have a problemnance in that DNA.

What is the chain of custody of the in DNA? Some DNA, depending on how you got it, has a shelf life Scott for example one.

And that doctor Bellman talked about that you have to get that preserve at the certain amount of time. So what happens is when you move away from that, you start finding yourself in a smaller circle of opportunity. But while I'm not going to say it's impossible to establish the species any other way, I will say that the most efficient one to take me through and through the taking of a type specimen. I'd also say, from what I understand, I think Professor Homer speak to this better

That's how it works, and it probably won't just be one. That would be my answer. Are the conventions of zoological taxonomy.

A type is required, and that needs to be a body or a diagnostically significant portion of the body. However, there has been discussion in the literature, in the conservation literature, and I'm particularly aware of issues.

Involving primates, where authors.

And papers have argued that, given the endangered status of so many newly discovered species of prime, that perhaps we should move beyond the sort of Victorian era and ethic off shoot first and asked questions later, and except as a type specimen of voucher sample.

Of DNA that is an accession in the museum. So that debate is ongoing.

It certainly is not established and sasquatch, may you know you have, Doctor Psykes is successful and some novel DNA sequences are clearly incredibly demonstrated while there isn't a standard against which to compare those, we can't compare sequences based on various traits. We can establish what it's nearest neighbors are, we can establish where it fits into the phylogenetic tree.

But I just ask a good question.

Let's say you did actually body an oppifuerity a defend.

Yourself, whatever you have, what would you do with the why now shot get narrowed around you have?

Depending on your circumstances.

I mean, if you're able to get assistancy in and alert the necessary authorities or whatever, well, who would be the necessary.

That's a good question.

If you're a conspiracy theorist, then maybe you don't want to contact the devote my fishing game, and so you may want to go to a trust in academic contact and work through those channels. If you're in a situation where you can't you know, it's remotes and you can't or you don't feel you're safe to remain there with the body, and I'd say get a portable chunk of it.

Take at that point, no recent message.

We've drawn up in photocologies for that situation. We're gonna leave with the minimum of the head. That's the fair minimum what we're gonna leave with. And then we have a set of photovols. We have drawn up a list of context, set of actions.

That we're can take. That's what we're working toward.

You just consider the logistical challenge of moving an hunder pound massive flesh right, and then it's gonna be difficult.

But now we have in place equipment that you use them as big animals. So the facility, we know.

What we're going to do when it happens. The only question is how much of it can we get out, and that really depends on where it is. Then it depends on other environmental factors. We've worked through many scenarios. You come up with plants and continuity plans because you know that things aren't going to work up the way you think they are.

But we've thought it through a lot.

Actually from a question just a moment ago. It inspired me to once ask Jeff question, with the DNA anything, Okay, let's say you get.

A hair or a drop of blood.

Let's say it hare, for example, comes back unknown prime, but it still has a DNA sequence that could be identified. So you could basically start it out and say this unknown primate has this DNA ventnor let's say you have a second hair or some.

Other biological aspect, drop of blood or something.

Like that, and the DNA pattern comes back matching the previous sample.

Say it's the same species as.

I mean, he just wondering if there were enough re occurrences of that same unknown pattern to say it is a species and there are multiple biological examples of it. Do you think that might be sufficient to get a recognition of species. It could potentially. I mean, in fact, we've done.

That exercise with the hair based on its own morphology back when it first struck up an acquaintance with doctor Fahrenbach and we were comparing notes and ideas.

One of the things that I said to him, we have.

All these independent analyzes and hair that have come back as unknown.

But if these are.

Coming from a single species, those characteristics that are distinguishing these samples preventing them from being attributed to any known species, must be consistent.

So let's go back and look at some of those reports.

We actually dug back in content some of the labs and found published reports in obecure places, and they were remarkably consistent. It was suggesting that there were independent hair samples that defied attribution, that all had a consistent suite of characteristics.

That he united them with one another. Now we're almost to a point.

I've been working with Hender, and since he's now in retirement, he has more fun looking through his telescope than he does through microscope these days. But we're working on putting together a fine paper to summarize his work and what I have done since his retirement, in order on the basis of the morphology, because being an anatomist, as opposed to be lectary biologists, you can't just simply ignore.

The morphology in lieu of wanting to have a DNA. The morphology says somebody's hair exists, and they're from some anem And if we can't put our finger on it right now.

That suggests that there's some novel and love there.

We will be working on that that published and hopefullully that will be a first day. But as far as the DNA, as far as DAN is establishing the identity of establishing the reality of the species, for most skeptics out there, it's going to take a specimen on the slab in front of them before they'll acknowledge, because even with DNA it becomes indirect.

If you have a published sequence of numbers, you don't have a photograph of the physical remains of a creature of any type. So they'll always given the what.

They perceive as the extraordinary nature of this phenomena, this proposition, they'll want the utmost inevidence to establish its.

The truth is the NAWAS is a conservation group and this is not an academic.

Question for us.

We're not trying to figure out a new, a normal way of establishing species.

If you look at burial surveillance and photography of the wild areas in this country, you see what's happened in them over the past several decades. We don't have a lot of time, so we're not trying to come up with the most interesting way of establishing this exotic new priming in North America.

We're trying to.

Establish the priming North America so we can do our job.

Which is to conserve them and their environment. The most efficient way to do that is to bring back a body or a piece of body.

There may be other ways, and if.

We happen upon one of those ways in the course of our work, for instance, the blood samples that we've turned on the rock.

If that had done it, we would have been thrilled, we would have been done.

But the fact is, if we have a mission and that's the desert the animal in this environment, the most efficient way to do that, and we believe there is a clock and ticking, the most efficient way to do that is to bring inspessive.

So y'all advocate killing it, and what y'all are saying.

I absolutely do. Think about a live specimen. Take a lot of specimal.

Take a hole next to the cabin and they're walking.

Mind.

Yeah, I can figure out when to do it.

Yeah.

Sure. Conservation is not about individuals. Conservations about populations of animals. Conservationists are interested in an entire population of the species.

That's what conservations all about Doctor Melvin talked about it the old way of shooting first, asking questions later. But if there's still many wild al bologists, say Brian Ronald Ree examples this morning of wild biologists who said, you must have a type specie. It's unpleasant for some people with that is just the way it's You got to have a type specimen for all intents and purposes.

Right now, this is the Texas Unicorn in Conference.

That's what this is to most of the world.

And until there can be a body lying on this date to present to science, academia and the world, we may as well be talked about lepracauns and unicorns and minotaurs.

And that's just the hartful truth.

But what are you.

Implying what they never got.

About it?

I think if I got read and scat maybe there's a question back in the l was for the life and taking out in alpha male Kevin's who's going through.

The survivability if if the population cannot sustain the loss of one individual, it's doomed.

Anyone sh understand?

Yeah?

My question is the people involved in world and lives to talk with marsh and I know there are complications with the traderations of trend guards that is there getting eight discussion tranquilize Yeah.

Yeah, sure, completely sure of the With regard to the Alma.

Mail question, this is a group of individuals and based on our observations, we don't know for sure, but based on our observations, we believe that there are multiple animals and we also believe that in case it is driven by an alpha mail, their social structures are surrounding an alpha male. There are probably other animals based on our observations that are in our beliefs, there are other animals that will step up. So it isn't that if we

Nothing would happen, or we'd hit the thing and it would run off.

Then either get a little queezy and then get mad at us because we made it sick, or it would fall asleep peacefully and we don't know where it is so we can't pick it up, or it would die because we gave it too much sutive. Again, we're not saying there is no other way. We're saying that we have a mission to fulfill and we're trying to accomplish the.

Most efficient way of doing them. We don't have unlimited resources. And the other thing that we looked at with tranquiser technology is expensive.

The rifles are expensive, and the stuff you put in them is expensive, and to your point, a lot of it has to be refrigerate.

So it sounds great. I mean, maybe we can to dig a hole. Then you follow me, bet.

An eight hundred pound, pissed off, eight foot tall thing in a hole. The hole has to be sixteen feet deep just to keep it from coming out and killing you.

Right, and then what do you do with it?

Right?

What do you can you just fill and pass it back up?

You know?

Not all these things that just logistically are And I have a very good friend. Sometime you may be aware of it.

Who said, you're just writing the easy way out, and there's a difference between ease and efficiency, and that's really what it works out.

I like that, and had just one in the Breeze thing about tranquilization question. My background in the movies, I've worked very extensively, not just with people. Then I've probably done more makeup effects on animals than any other makeup artists in Hollywood.

On one particular film, you might know it.

It was called Beastmaster, Mark Singer and Tanya roberts Nade.

Around Aby three.

There's a big black giant leverard in there, which is nothing more than a tiger who has dyed black. Ralph Elfer was the owner of the animals. We had four tigers that we were.

Going to use.

I was on the team that dyed the tigers black. We use three boxes of Lady Claral number one black to do each tiger. We started with the first one, which is a tiger name assaulted him. He was about three hundred three hundred fifty pounds thereabouts. He was their best tiger. I'd even go on a cage with him myself. I'd walked him and everything. He was an amazing tiger. But the two veterinarians who were there, and these are both exotic animal veterinarians, they.

Looked at him in his cage and said, yeah, he looks.

Like he's about three fifty, and they set their tranquilizer does for that, tranquilized him, put him down, dyed in black, and we only found out afterwards they had over tranquilized him. He never fully came back up. He lingered for about two weeks and he died. This was their best tiger. He was truly a wonderful cats. I literally know him personally.

You get it off, you'll lose the animal or it won't go down enough.

It's that deling. So the idea to looking at a beast and saying, hey.

Look it's pretty good.

Let's use fifty ccs and you'll load it in the gun and you shoot on your chances of being the right amount of tranquilization to be effective.

I give it about one percent.

Alright, looks so easy on TV.

This is the point though, good I was gonna make and then we can wrap this up. For my analogy around this is for people who don't know anything about firearms and not as a gun is a gun, right, I have a gun, so I can shoot anything and kill it.

The reality is, of course the twenty two is different, but they're not all the same.

All these other alternatives, for instance, tranquilization with technology is complicated. We don't know anything about that, and the amount of money and time we would spend buying all this stuff trial and error.

And then probably not getting anything again. Anyway, it's outside of what we can do.

And again to to put an escamation point on it or a conservation group, we're trying to achieve a goal, and every day that we don't is a day that our goal may be unachievable. We're one day closer to.

That goal, and we're going to get there the most efficient way we can. We're not going to go there in a straight line. There's another way we'll do it, but we're going to get the most efficient way we can.

And stay tuned for more Sasquatch out to see. We'll be right back after these messages.

Very good, Josh Gabs.

How do you choose your next investigation site and where are you going to go next?

We loowe for first and foremost places where there are good stories that are recent and relevant. We don't want to go investigate a cryptive that nobody claims to have seen in the last thousand years.

We're not going to go over a dragon.

We want to go to a place where we can meet people that have had current experiences. I think from a storytelling perspective, if you look at it from the chief nicle, if you're a viewer of a destiny, it's true that you don't necessarily believe in creature acts. But I can introduce you to a credible same person who has a really compelling story about an encounter. That's a compelling way in for many of our viewers. So we want to go to a place where there is a

Heat on it. Do you have it put into where you're going.

No, we do all that ourselves, So it's a very small number of people that makes the show. One of the cheats in the show is that it looks like we go do our investigation and fly away home to talk to Jeff here.

You know't do that.

We typically leave Los Angeles and we will stay in the field for two to three months filming, and we'll usually go all the way around. Then when we come back and we film all those expert interviews at the end, it's just like, you know, possible. So when we try to create a route, it's about finding those good stories, but it's also about tying them together in and around the world to hear that makes sense. You don't want

But it's really a group effort of trying to figure out the places that we want to go.

You know where you're going to do next.

I don't, I was saying earlier.

I just finished up I'm producing this new series, and so now we're just getting back into the conversation of destination ture they go where I'd like to go. I'd like to go to Tibet's an area in MLAs that we haven't visited yet. There's a little bit more leniency with the paranormal stories because there's usually good ghost stories everywhere.

I have this list of things that I march up there every year.

Every year I say, let's go to a rack you do, like a set downs haunted palace story, and they're like, no, we're not going to a rap I wanted to do like a Titanic Russians in versible ghost investigation.

Expensive It turns.

Out we've got our wish list and some of those have come true.

You know, Antarctic trip that.

We could have been on there for a long time, and then we finally got the channels to invest in that.

It's a combination of kind of wishless stuff, but more is driven by recent stories and.

This next questions addressed basically to group and pursuers. There are many side teams that are never documented have come. There are not more cameras running by the researchers themselves. I've sent that needs even maybe on them as in a GoPro.

Or something like that.

Oh, I thought that I had to go Goro strapped my head this summer and gave me the worseetic my entire life.

There's a way to do it if you're on the TV show and I know that Josh.

Shows this with the articulated thing and all that, but then it's looking at the person. We've spent some time thinking about putting cameras on our people so that we can film what they're seeing. And again there's some issues with that too. One of it's keeping everything charged. Electricity is a huge roleel for us, keeping all the batteries going and keeping it with the cameras filled with cards. And in fact Ken Helmer he had to go pro on his head because he wanted to do this. This

With his nan camera on his head and the battery gone it. Because that's what they do. We are doing.

I plan on having the camera back to my dead again this summer, and anybody else who will do it ton't have a camera strap to their.

Head too, But it's it's not as symbol again. It's just strapping a camera you're in and seeing the whole world. It's difficult.

We've played around with I think every portable camera we can find our destination truth that we disassembled them when we actually have been fortunate enough to work with the NBC News crew in New York since they're part of the NBC University family, and they developed all sorts of really neat little four cameras and hidden cameras for police investig the journalists and stuff. The problem was looking out as opposed to looking inward with anything that's infrared.

If we're talking about at.

Night, is it's very hard to generate enough throw so that the camera sees anything. It's fine when you're looking back and your subject is always two feet from the camera that sets on that swing arm that looks back at us. But when you turn that camera around at night, it doesn't matter. If you modify our go pros to let them run in infrared. You have to use such an enormous amount of infrared light unless you walk up to a tree to see anything out in open space, and that infrared light is visibly.

See it, it's very sort of distracted for wildlife.

The night vision is still the best solution for looking forward, and we use acidscopes and military rate stuff which we mount to our cameras, and it's bulky and it's big, and it's expensive and it's finny.

Ease to it.

It's not all that easy to work with nine camera guys on the Show of Hate working with these atto scopes because they do light out in the night and you can see a.

Lot, but they're big cameras that you need to walk around.

But they do use a lot of how infrared has come a long way, but night vision it's still unless you're working with extremely high end stuff.

Even that it's not hyper important.

I thought I had it all figured out two years ago.

At night I found maybe the best civilian grade night vision that you can get what's it called the Mini fourteen, And I've paid extra for the really good bowl because apparently how this stuff works is these sensors come out when they come.

Down the line, and they're all within a range of being good, better and best. I paid answer for that where they go to.

And I paid an astoundingly stupid amount of money for this thing because I'm like, I'm going to see a thighood with this then, and I was just because it They also said.

You can thread into a camera. It's hard to do that.

The stuff that none of this stuff is designed to work together right, And so I've got this beautiful piece of night.

Vision equipment that's absolutely just lights up the night. But the dark is still dark.

A shadow is still a shadow, and you can't see everything even with that stuff.

It helps, but instant, it's not imperfect. What about thermal therd ble is an order and I get too more expensive.

I actually think that there's a couple of technologies that are coming down the line that may help us future.

Thermal is one of them.

It's getting cheaper. It's night vision used to be a car or a night vision unit, and now.

It's like a bold joking car or a night vision unit. So it's getting cheaper and more accessible.

But the two other things thermal as it becomes more inexpensive, and they are getting more expensive, but even the cheapest passable one is three or four thousand dollars at this point. The other thing that I was just south by Southwest and I sat in the panel about and I sat listening.

Of course, doctor Melderns is working on a project that's a very similar to that.

Attention and as a nonprofit organization, that's what your money and coming to this conference goes to.

It's a five on Wednesday, three. We're required by the federal government.

Wore every opinion that back in to the mission state, and that's why we're doing You're talking about eternals, servevance systems, the more technology to help.

So you're doing a good thing by coming here in delpas I have a course uned.

And the changes that jo'll are doing internally into change the changes to conservicy. Do you have a pro call should someone, let's say they have acts built and shot with, do you have a prom to call a hotline or a set up in the place that you can.

Actually walk into average person how to harvest that tissue and how to store it, preserve it or get somebody here so that this is nothing you need to.

Do with go with have our website and to have it be the quickest way to antactis.

The only thing that would change about our protocol and the collection of a specimen would be the collector if it were of a hundred who shot one and the contact us. We would like to handle it the same exact way, except.

The originator the collector would be different. Of course, we would have to have the acquiescence of that verse must have fall through with the protocol of it. But it would largely be the same thing, the exception of who originated it.

So as your question, yeah, okay, right, I just want to say I've always went on a hot lot.

I want that red ball, and I might ask.

It would never stop writing?

How would be so awesome?

Can you?

Okay, we're queerly running out of town, so we'll make this the final question. What's the scariest thing you've ever encountered in the woods?

Honestly, when you're all doing chronological service and you in their trip wires, that's I'm more.

A great man than of anything else where.

Is that.

I won't say Josh's.

Mobilizations, I'm going to hear really loud and close prolonged globalization, so that can be pretty intimidating.

I guess I'd have to say that there were times when we were using a tentage that wasn't modified side, and that feeling of being inside a little bitty tent and not knowing what's literally two feet.

Away from you, rushing against the rain fly, that was a little bit unnerving.

I don't have a part of an experience in the outdoors quote unquote, I've been a city boy all my life. The only scary thing that I actually can recall is drunken humans.

That scary.

I mean, I can think of a few scary times. Sometimes it's what you don't see. It can really scare you and your imagination can take over. One time, I was out here in Tyler, Texas, and I had a girlfriend that had a lot of land down there, and we drove up and down the roads at night, and I'm generally not scared of anything. We would go, so these areas a lot of old graveyards out there. I wasn't afraid of ghosts or anything. And we were in

And I ended up right out of there. I never saw what it was. It was very scary because I couldn't.

See what it was a serious thing that's ever happened to me. It actually didn't happen to me. It happened to Barker Clerk. It was a story that it was a retelling in the video, and I was on that team. But when that actually happening, I had the other radio that was the one he was calling when he called for help, and I was too far away, and I knew. The scariest part was I knew he needed an assistance and I could not get to him. And the people who were closer than him did not have a radio,

I was not danger but he was. And as I was trying to get their assassins, I could.

I heard his gunshots, I heard him fire, and I knew that something very serious has.

Happening and I could not help him. That was the scariest things that ever.

Happened to me.

And I have three things September two thousand and five, out a Niggins an hour in a ten and we heard something mere feet from us that sented like five hower monkey that.

Was jim feet tall. I was extremely unnerved that situation.

Then last year when I saw the individual referred to was over eight, that was not unnerved until Rick hays came back and Rick Hayes attempted to replicate the movement of Overra. And it was at that point that I realized the the extreme silence of this individual, because when I first saw her, lady.

Have a favor of reference.

When Rick came and tried to stand where he walked, Rick's five to nine, and this thing just swarfed me.

And I got really unnerved at that point.

And then later on Mike mas and this is another team. Mike Maize and I were sitting out in front of the cabin and it was about ten o'clock. This was the last night of Operation Resistance.

We were winding in down. We're gonna close the operation down.

Mike Maze are sitting Mike Maize and I are sitting there at the canfire.

It's pretty quiet about like this, and all of a sudden we hear.

This massive boulder just must have been choppings in the creek behind us, which is flat there's no mountain, there's no there's nowhere for a rock to dislodge involve because behind this is probably one hundred yards.

The thought occurred to me, if this thing can pick up a rock that size, there's gonna tell.

Him if it decides to do that to this cabin. And we're in here, lying inside of the cab. The wheel struck furing.

And we've been there eight days, so you're already fatigued, so all these physiological problems, you're having your struggle wallings as well, and then when you hear this mincing on both we've talked their tails between our legs.

We went into the cabin and it was a long night, the dicing night.

And I don't have a lot of comfort around snakes at night. And it's places where we have been where there are buried, dangerous snakes and we're clomping around and that camera guy's walking backwards and all those kind of things. We've been very lucky on Destination Truth. We've had a couple of very close calls with the snakes at night.

Gets scary when you're in very remote places.

God, it's an episode where your camera got got gang in the field that seeing like y'all you But he jolted about that one.

But that was certainly his sarious night.

I think sure he was really chicken up by that. I had a camera guy on's haunted forest thing we did, who is a not a paranormal believer at all, camera guy out there and do a job.

And something happened to him and he claims he got knock off his feet.

I've worked with him for years and I've never seen him so much just say anything about the paranormal. And he was crying and really scary. It's amazing that people just something just happens in your whole world.

Resident. I think that's it all right. I guess I'd like to make them see now and thank you very much.

And this is probably the best attended defects his big book conference in that six or seven years, and maybe the best intended whenever we're not real sure we don't have felling stone tablets for the old days.

But anyone, thank you so much for not making.

It's going to each success, they say, you don't gotta go home, but you can't stay.

A lot of.

World open.

Sid steps.

Chart this chart, that chart.

Everything came right back, right back for joy, for me and enjoy staying right there.

You come in right away.

Still still sass stars, still.

Don't doubts, still

Steps us stassssss