Today, I want to tell you about a journey that I've been on for most of my life. Ever since I was a kid, I've heard tales of Bigfoot and wild men while spending time with my friends and family. As I grew older and read more about the paranormal, my interest in encryptids and other things strange only deepened. That's why I'm so excited to share with you
what I've personally become involved with the Untold Radio Network. The Untold Radio Network is a live streaming podcast network that airs a new show every day across all podcast platforms, YouTube, and more. They have eight different shows on all sorts of exciting topics such as bigfoot, cryptids, UFOs, aliens, and much more. I even have my own show called Weird Encounters, where I talk about all things strange. This is more than just a podcast network.
It's a community that allows me to meet so many amazing people who share their stories and experiences with strange. If you're interested in hearing more of these stories and learning more about the paranormal encryptids, make sure you check out the Untold Radio Network for all kinds of exciting shows. It's free to subscribe. So what are you waiting for visit www dot untold radionetwork dot com today. Thanks so much for joining me for the show. This midweek bonus episode is something
special. It is actually a show that Wayne and I recorded over on that Bigfoot podcast last week with doctor Hogan Shirou, who you guys are familiar with because I've had him on over here on Sasquatch Otssey in the past. We had a phenomenal conversation and Hogan joined Wayne and I over on that Bigfoot podcast to continue that conversation and to get into some things that frankly, he and I didn't get a chance to talk about here on Sasquatch Odyssy. So I
think you're really going to enjoy this episode. It was a phenomenal conversation and it gave Wayne the opportunity to ask Hogan some questions that had been burning in his mind since he had listened to him over here on Sasquatch Odyssey. If you didn't catch the first episode with Hogan, it was episode four forty one, you can go back and listen to that first and then listen to this. So what you're about to hear from beginning to end is the entire episode
of that Bigfoot Podcast. If you guys aren't listening to that podcast, you are missing out on some phenomenal conversations. You can get it anywhere. You're listening to me right now on any podcast app. Wayne and I would love to have you join us for some of the phenomenal conversations we have over there. But enough of that. I know you guys are ready to get into it. Hogan and Wayne are on the line. They're ready to go. All this left for you to do is sit back, relax and enjoy the
show. Hey guys, this is Jeremy from Australia and you're listening to Brian and Wayne on that big Foot Podcast. Wayne, what's going on man? Brian? What's up, buddy? How you doing today? I'm hanging in like a hair and a biscuit here in the Bigfoot Bungalow. Ready to go out and do some celebrating with some friends later on after we record this hang out, kick back a little bit and get away from the Bigfoot stuff. Had some things going on recently. We're not going to get into that now,
but I've talked about it as a guest on another podcast. A couple of nights ago. I've had some stuff happen on the property that we'll get into some of the time. But what's been going on with you man, not a whole lot. Tiffany and I had our after our show last night that went till after eleven, and then a bunch of us jumped on discord, hung out and shot out the braders for a little while. So I
am tired. Hadn't been up very long getting ready to record this interview live in that podcast gangst a life partying like it's nineteen ninety nine and twenty twenty four. Pretzels and Mountain dew Man just going at it. Pretzels a mountain God, you're old, dude. It's supposed to be some kind of like acid and Red Bull or something now for the kids. I don't know. Bourn not going to talk about any of that. We have a special guest on the show. This is only like the second or third time we've had
anybody on here besides us pontificating on the show. But we do have an esteemed guest. We have a doctor in the house. We have doctor Hogan Chirou. If you guys listen to Sasquatch Ottasy you've probably heard his episode. It was back four forty one. I actually got the looking for his episode. Hogan was sending me message just earlier, I think this morning, asking what episode he was on sasquatch Ottasy, and I was like, oh, it's four fifty one. No, it wasn't It was four forty one.
I fat fingered the four into a five. Fat fingers. Yeah, I had to correct that. I guess it was sausage fingers because typically I don't have fat fingers, but they do tend to swell in the heat, so I had to go back and fix that. This morning, I was like, oh, no, actually it was four forty one was your episode. So if you guys are interested in hearing that conversation, it was phenomenal.
He sprung his beliefs on me because skepticism. I was expecting somebody coming on telling me a story about their encounter, and he's like, no, I don't necessarily believe that sasquatch exists. So we had a really awesome conversation. And I consider this guy friend. He is certainly one of the best in
the business as far as I'm concerned with expressing his views. The conversation we had on Sasquatch was fantastic, So I wanted to bring him on for us to have a conversation over here and get into some of the things that we didn't get to get into over there, and let you I have the opportunity to talk to him as well and ask some of the questions that you might have. So, without further ado, let's bring on our esteemed guest, doctor Hogan Shiro. Welcome to the show, sir. Good to have you,
buddy. This is like a whole different experience for him. This is nothing like when we did Sasquatch. Out to see this is a completely different show. So thank you first and foremost to agreeing to come on and talk to us about Bigfoot. So let's get right into it. I want to start actually in a place where I sent you guys some questions yesterday that just popped into my mind. I worked on a little bit about what I wanted
to talk about, but I got an interesting email. Wayne and I normally start the show talking about the mail bag and getting emails from folks and playing voicemails and having a little fun reading some shitty reviews that we get on Apple podcasts and other places. I wanted to start in a different place this morning because I got an interesting email a couple of days ago, and I was
actually going back and forth with D today. He did not want me to use his full name, so I'm not even going to use a first name.
He wanted me to just call him D. So I got an email from D and here was his question, And I thought this would be a good place to start with you a doctor chirou and had this conversation because I think we might have touched on this briefly over on Sasquatch Odyssey, but if we didn't, I certainly want to get into this because I think it's a place that Wayne and I have went back and forth on a couple of times. And Wayne has never heard this either, so it's new to everybody but
me obviously. D writes, my question is I want to hopefully open up some much needed discussion in the Bigfoot community. First of all, why hasn't any high profile Sasquatch influencer endeavored to unite the Bigfoot community in an all out consensus to get the truth from the government. After all, the truth about these creatures existence or non existence resides within federal agencies such as the US Fish
and Wildlife Service and notably the US slash Canada Border Patrol. In an email I received last September from the USFWS HQ, I'm assuming that's headquarters, it stated, since hunting bigfoot is a recreational activity, it would be interesting to
know just how the USFWS came to that determination. Also, my original request that I submitted to the us FWS website was removed by the agency, either by a human or by AI. The reason I think it was was because their boilerplate email response would have been out of context within my original request. Thanks D. I got back with D and said, how did you get this email from the Fish and Wildlife Service? Was it in response to some requests that you said? I was a little confused, so he did follow
up with me via email this morning. We've been going back and forth since about eight He sent this back and it was his original email. The subject is email to USFWS the existence of sasquatch slash Bigfoot. The message is I would like to speak to the person in charge of handling information concerning the sasquatch bigfoot subject. Thank you, And this was the response that he got back,
thank you for contacting the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Our mission is working with others to conserve, protect, and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats were the continuing benefit of the American people since hunting bigfoot, bigfoot is in quotation marks is a recreational activity based on an individual's beliefs of its existence. It does not fall under the jurisdiction of our structure for
the fish and wildlife. As a result, research or information pertaining to bigfoot would not fall under the services that we provide, nor do we know who would. In addition, there are no efforts to put such on an endangered species list and no such spokesperson on topics for the service. Best of luck
in your research. He mentioned that wasn't his exact email that he sent the first time around, So I inquired, like, are you saying that when you got this response from them, that they actually can changed your initial email because he was saying there was something off about his original email. So he wrote back and said, yes, correct, my original email message was this, which is the exact same message I had sent the first time to the
Department of Agriculture. Then next he sent it to the US four Service. I would like to speak to a person who can verify for me either the existence or non existence of the creature commonly referred to as a sasquatch or bigfoot. He goes on to say, it is important to note that I always wrote bigfoot or sasquatch even in the subject, but in their version it has
the two names separated by a. He calls it a sash mark. So I said all that to say, it comes down to this, and this is something that has come up over and over and over and over again. And it's probably a little bit skewed for you, Hogan, in that if you don't necessarily believe these creatures exist, then it probably means that the government isn't hiding the fact that they exist or don't exist, or information about these things in general. I know it was kind of clunky me getting through that
email, but I think you got the gist of it. Basically, this guy writes into the Fish and Wildlife Service saying, Hey, I want to talk to somebody about the existence or non existence of bigfoot, and he gets back this sort of canned email saying, hey, you know, people out looking for these things is based on your own beliefs. We don't really get into that kind of thing. How do you feel about that in general? Do you think there is even if it's a hypothetical, these things exist.
Do you think there's some sort of a cover up or do you think that's an indicator that there's some sort of a cover up from the government related to bigfoot. I think that most of the claims of government cover ups for most things are speculation based on I couldn't find the information, so therefore it must be a cover up. That reply right there to me, you know, the fact that they change the wording, that sounds to me like an intern
or the lowest level person at Fish and Wildlife got this. Hey, respond to this email. I doubt they're using AI to do a sort of auto generated reply, especially because it says good luck in your research. That sounds like, you know, reply to this email. Don't say anything that would indicate that the government has any information, because that's not what we do. Knowing a little bit about government agencies. Fish and Wildlife deals with fish wildlife
plants that are known to exist to science. Since fasquatch is not confirmed, they have nothing to do with that. Department of agriculture, the Sasquatch grocorn I mean they don't care. Unlet's sasquatch has got a big wheat field somewhere. All due respect to d it sounds like this individual it was like, I know all this, write letters to the government until I find the answer. For a government agency, that would be the same as someone writing in
and saying I would like to know all the government's knowledge on Cthulhu. Okay, well, yeah, Lovecraft was a creative writer. That's what we know. I think for me, there's no sort of like, oh, well, that must mean the government is covering something up. I just look at it as government agencies, especially federal government agencies, are huge bureaucracies of what is our mission? What do we do? And we only answer questions with them that if I were to write them a letter and say, hey,
what's the official wildlife position on the best football team in America? To them, that's the same as someone saying, what's your position on Sasquatch? It's not part of our mission, it's not what we do. We maybe closet commander fans because we're near DD, but we're not going to say anything. So I just look at it as for me, if I were someone who if I were a true believer or a nowhere as folks like to call themselves, do a bad their class experiences or encounters, I wouldn't bother with the
federal government. For me, it's more a matter of I think the grassroots folks have a far better chance. Efforts like the ones that you've talked about before, Brian, that I've heard you talked about on Sasquatch odsty I was on with Cliff and Bobo a while back, and you know Cliff doing his kind of concentrated this is the area that I research. I've had the good indication of activity. So I'm just going to continually go back, as you
guys know, that's how science works at a very basic level. And Brian, we talked a little bit about the methodology that could be implemented a little bit more. But I think that's where the folks want to find out the facts about Sasquatch and its existence. Becoming more methodical and scientific in their approach
is really important, and sharing information between groups. I just listened to one of your podcast recently where you were pointing out the kind of territoriality that happens with some of these different groups, and as you point out, I mean,
it's understandable you don't want everybody coming in right. But at the same time, this is where I think concerted efforts will be more useful, as if these disparate groups shared information more freely, if they were kind of a clearing house or a warehouse for information where folks could without the egos attached. I think the reality is a lot of the searchers want to be the person. They want to be, the one who can stamp their name on it. As I pointed out to a friend who asked me at once, I
was in grad school at the time. My friend said, oh, hey, Bigfoot real and not real? One of those late night evenings that you guys were discussing there at the beginning. It was probably a little later than eleven at that point, and probably some different substances were involved, so the questions roll in Bigfoot real or not real? I was just saying, well, if it's real, whoever comes up with that body, whoever finds it
and verifies it, their kids won't ever have to work. The reality is that the amount that you get paid on a speaking tour, let alone the book that you're going to write and the movie rights, and so there's that motivation itself. I think more importantly for people, it's just kind of their status and the fame that we come with it. They look at how much mileage Patterson and Gimlin have gotten out of there. So man Bob is a rock star in the bigfoot world for a good reason. I mean, he
wears great hats and has got great mustache. But I think they see that there's a lot of people who want to have that, whether they realize it or not. I'm putting together at least a four part series from Area X some stuff that Brian Brown has passed on to me. It's long ago defunct podcast that they were doing back in like twenty ten through twenty eleven, twelve thirteen. It's all the interviews from people coming out of Area X and some
of their experiences that they were having. I was editing some of that early this morning. And one of the things that Brian's in a conversation with his co host about in this particular episode, which for you guys, will be part four over on Sasquatch out to see when I put this out, he's talking about that in the very beginning, you know, the TBRC back then, now the NAWAC, the North American wooda of Conservancy, was the Texas
Bigfoot Research Conservancy way back when. We're getting a lot of crap in a lot of the Bigfoot forums back then about their motivation for collecting a specimen and just doing what they're doing in general. And that's one of the things they were talking about on this show this morning, was the fact that they're not doing it for money motivation, because, yeah, they collect money from dues.
That's the main way that they make their money. It's very much like the BFRO or any other organization that charges people to be a part of their organization and or goiat on expeditions or whatever. But he's like, look, we're not getting rich. They're a tax exempt organization. So even if they've got a shit ton of money by taking down a Bigfoot, they're not just going to set around a poker table and divvy it all out and everybody gets
hundreds of thousands of dollars. It just doesn't work that way. So he got into the other part of the motivation. He said, look, as far as the fame thing is concerned, sure, if you're the person who goes out and collects a specimen of bigfoot, you take one down, you're going to have some fame that comes along with that. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think anybody who accomplishes anything, And to
Brian's point in the audio, he says the same thing. Look if somebody goes out and accomplishes anything, and somebody pats you on the back for your accomplishment, whether it's hey, man, your truck looks great because you just cleaned it and waxed and washed your wheels or whatever, there's a sense of pride that comes with that, and people are like, oh, it's great, and you deserve that recognition. Same thing with Bigfoot. Collecting a specimen
or collecting evidence. When you're out in Area X or anywhere else, I think people always kind of point the finger and say, oh, you're just in this for the fame. Well, I think to some extent everybody is. Some people do a really good job at work just to get patted on the back by the boss. Some people call you a brown noser or a kiss ass, whatever. But it's human nature that you want to be recognized
for what you do. So very good points made as far as you know the motivation behind what people do. But to kind of close out the email before we move on to something else. I agree with everything you had to say about the government agencies. I just caution people to do this on both sides of this argument, whether you're a skeptic or whether you're a believer or know where, whatever the case may be. I think we get caught up in this. Sometimes for a lot of people, a lack of evidence to
them is evidence. The fact that the government doesn't say one way or the other that Bigfoot exists, and they say we don't have any evidence one way or the other. People go ah, it just proves that they know. They're just not telling us. A lack of evidence is not evidence. You can't go to a murder scene and try to convict somebody of murder and use a lack of evidence, Well, there was no evidence at all that he committed the crime, so he must be guilty. It doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work that way with bigfoot, right, So I caution people on both sides of the ayele here to just remember that when it comes to that. And I'm not beating up on d by any stretch of the imagination. It's just I caution people when they get in those situations to say, you know, like you said, you can look at every nuance in the email. Oh, they put a slash between the names. That's not how it was when I sent it. Like you said, it's probably a frickin'
I don't answer every single one of my emails. Danny answers a lot of my emails for me. We might have conversations about it, but the way he would write it would be completely different than the way I would structure it. So it's technically coming from me, but it's in a different way. I think that's all that It really boils down to. How do you feel about it, Wyane, the whole situation, the email, the government cover up, do you agree disagree? Kudos to him for taking it that far.
Most of us wouldn't sit down and take the time to actually contact government branches, so good on him for doing that. He started out the email, if I remember correctly, his first question was why hasn't anyone with status in the community challenged the government? When you read that part, the first thing I thought about was didn't Todd standing the Canadian government. I mean, we all have our opinions on todd Standing, but he is in the community.
People know who he is, and he challenged the government. Look what that got him, Absolutely nothing. Stay tuned for more sasquatch oat to see. We'll be right back after these messages. Yet I did respond back. I kind of left that part out. That was one of the first responses that I sent, and said, look, as far as bigfoot influencers, I guess there's a book out there of Bigfoot Influencers by Tim Halleran. He's working on a second round of that book. I'm supposed to be included in
that because apparently I'm some sort of a big Foot influencer. And I said, look, I do have a platform with my show, with this show and our network in general, to bring these things out for conversation. I don't have any problem doing that. The issue for me is anybody I e. Todd Standing, who would be willing to do that that would be considered a Bigfoot influencer in the first place, would have to believe that there's some
sort of a government cover up to even start that conversation. And I'm just not there. I'm not that person. I can certainly have conversations with people. I've had some interesting conversations with people over on Sasquatch Outes. I can't remember his name. He was doing a documentary and he had done another film before that, very good documentary, Extremely intelligent guy. I had a great
conversation with him. He does a lot of Foyer request I mean, he is the king of Freedom of Information Act request about Bigfoot and he's gotten a ton of stuff back. I think it's Eric Plasios. I want to say it's Eric Colosios. Forgive me if it's not, but he's done a lot of work with those Foyer requests. But look, here's the other thing about trying to get information from the government. To your point, Hogan, I would probably exclude them for the most part in general, because you're not going
to get a whole bunch a and if there's really something there. In my opinion that he was at a point where they were trying to charge him like five thousand dollars to get some of this information, He's like, I don't have five thousand dollars to get this report back, so he's having to whittle it down and be very specific instead of getting one thousand or fifteen hundred documents in return with his four year request, he's going to get like fifty or
sixty, but he's kind of learned how to do that because he can get those fifty or sixty for a couple hundred bucks versus they want five thousand dollars to fill this request. That's the other thing that people don't realize. There's money involved in getting information a lot of times from the government. You can't just fill out a four year request and like, oh yeah, we'll just print everything for you and we'll send it out in a FedEx truck and we'll
send you a hard drive as well. No, you're gonna pay for it. So there's a whole lot of reasons in my opinion, to maybe not be involved with trying to get things from the government. Again, to the point of a big influencer or somebody in the know in the community coming out and trying to get that from the government. If somebody could give me something definitive enough for me to sink my teeth into and go, oh, I think there's something to this that this proves there may be a conspiracy. Maybe
it's a specific incident where it was covered up. I think there's any of people in the forest Service. Hey, I saw bigfoot. Me and my wife were hiking, or me and my son were hiking and bigfoot stepped out in front of us, and they call a forest ranger from the local post and the forest ranger comes out and find some footprints and goes that's kind of strange. I've actually heard stories of them going over and scuffing up the footprints and say, oh, it's probably a bear and moving on. Is that
a cover up? Sure could be. Maybe that one person doesn't want to deal with that in their area, maybe they've seen it too many times. And Okay, but it's not this vast cover up by the government. Right, he's a government employee. He did one thing. Whatever. There's a litany of rabbit holes we can go down with the conspiracy stuff. But I certainly want to get into some other questions. Wayne. I know you had some questions. I've had my chance to ask Hogan plenty of questions over on
Sasquatch Odyssey. So I'm gonna let you kick it off because I knew you had some questions that you wanted to get in today. Just the main one, Hogan, are you being an admitted skeptic, you don't believe that that Bigfoot are real. You are obviously an intelligent guy, very well spoken. So someone that has seen Bigfoot, the thousands of people in this country alone that have reported seeing with their own eyes broad daylight, this thing stepped out,
looked at me and ran away. What do you say to those people that have actually seen something? I mean, are they lying or are they just misidentifying something? How do you answer those people? Brian? I think we touched on this well, we spoke the first time. I never assumed someone's lying. I never put sort of the worst intentions in people. I always think that they're coming at it from an honest perspective, unless they're certain individuals on TV who all they do is fly, you know. But I've
talked to lots of people. I mean, it's amazing. My family knows how much I love the whole Bigfoot stuff. So my kids are always getting me, you know, big foot t shirts and things like that. I'll maybe maybe I shoot a picture of my ex terra that's all sas squatched out in fact, and got red eyes on the top, just to play into
a glowing eye stuff. But I actually have a lot of people who come up to me and I'll see something they go, you know, they're real, I've seen them, and I'll ask them about their experience, you know, because I'm curious about it. I never assume that they're lying. I think for a lot of those folks it's a misidentification situation. I think a lot of them did not get as clear of you as they thought they did. I love when you hear that someone's driving down the road. Hardly anyone
goes twenty five miles an hour. We're not driving model teeth forwards these days. They're ripping down the road. There it was right there on the side of the road. I just think about how many times, anecdotally I've been with people where you whit past a deer or an elk standing on the side of the road, and you say, hey, did you see that? What? They're not even dried right, they're just passing. I think most people are far less of it than they think they are, so I think
it's easy to have misidentification in those kind of situations. When I hear the we were hiking, it stepped out on the trail right in front of us, and those I honestly don't know. As I said to Brian the first time we done, you never say never in biology. You should never say never, and you should never say always, because it's hard to find laws in biology. There are general principles that tend to hold, but you almost
never find anything that's hard and fast. We used to think we had a pretty clear picture that Neanderthals were our closest extinct relatives, and we had a common ancestor back four hundred, five hundred thousand years ago. Now recent human evolution is about as muddy as you can get. Just the other day there was a news speacine that was identified and named to join in the branch. So I'll never say never, al And that's why I leave it open. And I said to Brian, I mean, I'm in Oregon. I grew
up in the Pacific Northwest. I grew up with a dad who's a hunting fishing guide. I've been hiking, hunting, fishing, camping, backpacking through the Pacific Northwest for a big chunk of my life. I love the Bigfoot lore and I would love it. It's that's watch existed. To get back
to your what do you say to those folks. Honestly, when I talked to him, I say, well, I want to know the detail, the thing that rings true to me, that shows me that either everyone is seeing the same thing, or everyone has watched the same movies and read the same mythology. Is that, oh, it was ten feet tall and had a pointed head, had no neck, It's hands hung down to its knees. Either they're seeing the same thring or mythology is a really strong force in
a human mind. This kind of gets into the folklore stuff. I don't want to say that sasquatch or aliens because the Sasquatch exists. I'm in the it's a biological species camp if it exists. But the analogy here is the way that everyone describes aliens when they see them. Every witness who you hear who doesn't talk about reptilions with some other species of alien. Right, they all described Gray's being the exact same. Yeah. Close Encounters of the Third
Kind is a pretty popular movie. It permeated the American culture. I think that a lot of times what we don't understand is how that impacts our Subconchin Brian, I think I told you about that big black bear that I saw this last year's season where I saw this thing way from probably seventy five yard
draft. I was driving from one hunting area to another, and I see this big black and brown animal that from that quick glance I was sitting there me being the skeptical person I am, I could have easily said that was a sasquatch. The way it moved, how quick it moved, I could have easily said, man, that thing. It must have been a thousand pounds. It moves faster than any animal you've ever seen. So what I did was I hiked over there and found its tracks and was like, huh,
yeah, I'm a big BlackBerry. Probably was a bore. He probably weighed close to maybe three fifty four hundred pounds, so you know, on the big end of a black bear in Oregon. But he wasn't ten feet tall and weigh a thousand pounds. So I think that something that our minds do without us realizing. It's kind of a survival instinct for any kind of animal. You see something that you don't know what it is, it's best to assume that it's gigantic and can kill you, rather than it's tiny and
cute. I should go up and pet it. Right. I can see if people want to pet the bison in Yellowstone, and I always think to myself, man wrong with their brain. Their survival instinct is gone, because when you see something big and nasty of the forest, I'll just wrap it up with this really quickly. When I was studying chimpanzees in Africa, I study them for fifteen years. People would often ask me, well, aren't you afraid of the chimpanzees. Now, I'm not afraid of the chimpanzees.
First off, because the crew there has done an amazing job habituating them. The directors of the site set down protocols very early on of how to be safe around them and everything else. But the other thing is chimpanzees, but they stand up right. They're four feet tall at that, like a big one ninety five to one hundred and five pounds. If they see me walking through the forest, the only thing I can imagine that they think is that's
one big damn animal. I don't want to mess with that, because the safest thing if you're an animal in any kind of environment is if it's bigger than me, it can probably kill me and will probably try and eat, so let's stay away. I think that's what happens in our brains a lot is we see something without us even knowing right. I won't go lizard brain as far back, but pretty close to like primal reaction is God, that
thing was huge. Now, I'm not saying that's all of it, because I will leave the door open that there are folks who Jeff Meldrum, who Brian has referenced multiple times that I've heard on this podcast. Jeff and I have known each other for twenty years. I think we're not close friends, but we've been in professional conferences and everything together. We've chatted recently about things, so Jeff has been convinced by the evidence. I would never say that
Jeff is lying or mistaken. I think that Jeff is a really, really knowledgeable anatomist and functional anatomist. He knows his business. When I talked to him, I just want to know, like, what is it that hit the tipping point for you? That's what I'm curious about with boats a lot of times, what they put you over that edge if you were in the skeptical camp. I just talked about Jeff Mildrim because I like to name drop on my show. That's the only reason I mentioned him over and over and
over again. So he's a great guy who's also incredibly knowledgeable. I mean his understanding of the foot and foot mechanics. I had to put that and go mm hmm, yeah, it's awesome. He definitely is in to feet. That's a whole nother show. We could probably do just about Jeff Mildram and his foot fetish. But Wayne, didn't you have some questions about bears
in particularly. I know we've done shows in the past where we've had these strange stories of kids that say I was taken into the woods by the bears, and now Wayne, you had a couple of specific questions around that for Hogan, not necessarily specific. I just wanted to get his opinion on that because there are many many cases we've covered him on this show, and I've covered them on my show Paranormal Odyssey about these kids swearing that they were taken
by bear or a big black animal. There was a couple cases where adults actually witnessed a bear running with a child under one pall and like running on three legs. I don't know if you've heard anything like that. Would you get any kind of credence, any kind of credibility to a story like that. No, I wouldn't give any kind of credence to those claims. Anatomically, the idea that something can be bipedal and then switched to quadrupedalism, it
doesn't work in nature our own ancestry. The shift to bipedalism was a major anatomical shift. It requires huge differences. We referenced doctor Meltrium a few minutes ago. He even says that when he talks about Sasquatch as a biped it's a different kind of biped than we are. But still the pelvis is going to be completely different, The way your spine connects is going to be completely different, the curvature of your spine is going to be different. You're not
going to be able to drop down to all fours. So the idea of something running on three with something tucked under an arm or front leg, honestly, that just sounds like a story. But as far as kids claiming they were let into the forest, kids make up a lot of stuff, especially kids who are going to get in trouble for going in places that they're not
supposed to go. But one of the things about the Sasquatch lord I think is really interesting gets back to the idea of mythology and folklore, is that if you look at the like everyone likes to reference Native American stories about Bigfoot, right, They've been around for hundreds of years. Almost all the Native American cultures that we know of have a reference to the hairy Man, the
whatever. Yeah, that's a great boogeyman. The forest is really dangerous for kids, and if you want your kids to stay alive, you want them to stay out of certain areas, and the best way to do that is to scare the crap out of them. When I was a kid in southern California, and Brian as a former police officer, you know this kind of story. Well, Like, when I was a kid in southern California, the most dangerous thing that our parents told us about were the kidnap bands right
where the white vans with nothing on the side and there's no windows. At one point, when I was in elementary school, we were living in Orange County. The parents in that area had kids so worked up that the florist van would pull up and kids would take off running like they were just freaked out. That somebody who's going to grab you and take you away and you
never see your mom and dad again. When I hear the stories about the wild men of the forests that are children eaters that will take the kids, it's the same story. It's just a different contest. It's literally, I don't want you to die when you're young and dumb. I want you to live. So here's a boogeyman for you to be afraid of, and that
will keep you. You know, with my kids, I described cars as five thousand pounds predators like that thing moves a lot faster than you do, and it weighs five pounds and you don't so you keep your eyes on that and you make sure that it's not coming before you cross the road. So I think that all of those things kind of combine and we grow up having this in our subconscious And I think for kids, mom and dad told you don't go into the forest, and you decided I'm going to go into the
forest, and then you get caught. It wasn't my fault. The bear led me into the forest. Now Mom and Dad are just worried about you. You're not grounded anymore. Or however, kids get punished these days. I don't know, you take their phone away from them for twelve minutes or whatever. Yeah, yeah, but you can't do that if the bear did it. I want to be respectful your time. So I want to get a couple of questions in here that I thought were interesting because I came up
with them. Are there any known species that exhibit physical or behavioral characteristics similar to the descriptions of Sasquatch. I kind of already know the answer to that, but I want to get your take on that, because that's something that we hear over and over. I mean, Wayne and I just did an entire show about you mentioned the movies and the influence that movies like The Close Encounters of the Third Kind had on the phenomenon of UFOs and aliens in the
Grays. We just did an entire show about the Legend of Boggia Creek because Wayne and I had never seen the movie. So we sat down and watched the movie just a couple of weeks ago. See that he's surprised, the skeptic of surprise. We've never seen the Legend of Boggy Creek, but we
watched it. Then we had a conversation about it on this show and talked about For me, it was more And I've got the notes here where I wrote down all the things in the movies, and you alluded to some of it earlier, like the steel feeling, the smell, the unexplained fear dogs not tracking sasquatch, the sour pigs smell, the horrible smell that comes along the roadside crossing, the jiggling of the door knobs, and the things that
people describe in their encounters. That's one of the things that we had a conversation about the influence that some of that stuff has. But there are characteristics like rock throwing, vocalizations, bluff charges that are very specific to what we know of great apes. So can you talk a little bit about some of
that and how you see that playing out. Do you think it's just an influence of knowing this ape behavior, knowing what happened in the legend of Biggie Creek, or do you think it's possible, maybe even hypothetically, that if sasquatch exists, that there would be some correlations between say, chimpanzees, gorillas,
even the rangutans as far as the ape family is concerned. Yeah, I mean That's actually probably one of the reasons why I keep such an open mind is that a lot of the descriptions that people give who don't necessarily know when they're going into it that chimpanzees will occasionally pick up rocks and throw them. They throw them underhanded. They don't have the same rotator cuff ability that we do, so they don't have the precision throwing overhand that we do.
When you hear people talk about sasquatch throwing rocks, it sounds pretty precise the way people describe it. It's the rock at the side of the house. There's a rock that landed next to us, sort of thing, like they're just not chucking them and wherever they land, they land in the descriptions, but just the fact that they're using something from their environment as part of their displays. Some apes do that, for sure. Gorillas do that by breaking
trees in half. They're pretty powerful, so when they want to incorporate something, they nap off a sapling. And I don't know if you guys have ever heard the story of Mike from Gomby, the chimpanzee who became alpha male by rolling petroleum cans back when Jane goodol first started, the chimps were being baited with beating boxes with bananas and them to get them to come in because they were having a hard time, and they didn't understand at the time.
There just wasn't the background, so they didn't understand the impact of getting the chimps to think of food source as being there. So the chimps were coming
into camp and checking things out. One of the males, not very big, not very high ranking at the time, discovered that if he displayed and flipped the empty petrol cans down the trail and all the other chimps scattered, it scared scared to death than they just ran, and he very quickly became alpha male bothered most of the offspring for the next several years, implementing things from the environment. Not surprising. This is one of the questions that I
thought was interesting. They all were interesting, but this for me was one of the more interesting ones. A lot of the behaviors we would expect to see from a large eight the calls, yeah, I mean a lot of the calls. You know. I think there's a lot going on there that people just start recognizing, and people aren't realizing the variation in animal calls and things, things like the descriptions of them possibly living in kind of a family
unit. Most states don't do that. Gorillas live in single male, multiple female groups. Typically chimpanzees live in multiple male, multiple female groups. O Rangutans live solitary lives for the most part, or really small groups because they're
food sources. It's all dictated by how much food is available, and then female selection comes in there, so like in gorillas, females have selected for bigger and bigger and stronger males, so now you get single males that can control a group basically, and the females attach themselves to one big male with a Ranguetanser's is not that opportunity. Their food sources are widely dispersed. They
can't get in big groups. And when they can, when they have like these fruiting seasons where trees just get act with fruit, orangutans will regularly come together and they'll interact. Carl von Scheike, a professor from Duke University,
has done some really nice research on that. When I hear about the sasquatch thing, the family groups stuff is stuff where I go, yeah, maybe that's more a human characteristic to be in family units, but usually those family units are within larger groups for humans, groups that range from like hunter gatherer groups that range from forty two one hundred and fifty people. That sort of
thing. The idea that it's one big male, his lady and their kids sounds like the leave it to Beaver's sort of image of American life, So to me, sounds a lot like projection. Again, Brian, when we talked originally and I was talking about the superhero component of Bigfoot descriptions, these days, there's a lot of idellic descriptions about Bigfoot. Right. They live in these family groups that are in tune with nature. They understand it better
than we do. I love how the same people will describe how in harmony with nature they are. Yet we found this deer with its next snap, and I'm like, yeah, that was harmonious for the deer. I think that there are behaviors that are described with what we'd expect from a large rape. You guys mentioned Todd Standing earlier. I just watched one of his videos
recently where he was talking about Jake and Jane. I think the brothers sister Sasquatches that he claims to have on video and he's talking about they're two years apart. Let me just say this really quickly. If Sasquatches were to live in family groups male and female that are having kids, there's no aide that
has offspring two years apart, not even Gibbon. None of the great apes have offspring that are less than four years apart, three to four years apart, Matt, because they have to nurse that long to get strong enough to be able to start foraging on their own. There are lots of reasons to question Todd's stuff in my opinion, but just when he said that right out
of the gate, I was like, see it now. I don't believe anything else that you say when you're saying that these are their ages, because none of it matches with what an animal that big would have to do to raise offsprings successfully. And stay tuned for more sasquatch Otysey, We'll be right
back after these messages. Hunter gatherer groups nursing regularly lasts for two plus years and results in blactational elementary a good way to keep your birth spacing apart as long as you're nursing all the time on demand females don't ovulate, So the idea that Sasquatch are cranking them out every two years. First, just think of that every two years, how big would that population be, even if
you started with just a couple hundred individuals. That's exponential growth there. So I think that these are things where scientific minds and people who know the subject are going to go see it doesn't match up when things start to fall into place. That's where, like way in your question, you know, when you ask about the people seeing these things and you hear the descriptions, that's where the good skeptical mind goes, Okay, hold on, there may be
something here. Maybe we need to look at this further. As I told you before, Brian, I mean, I've told Cliff and other folks that if they want to get serious about doing censuses and bigfoot areas and Brian, we can talk about this about your property at some point if you want to about setting up census tracks and doing regular monitoring. You know, because I know that you appreciate that approach. I think that's where things need to lead.
That's kind of my big message I think is that we need to get more structured around things that people want to get serious about getting back to what we opened the show with. You know, if people want to get serious about finding out the facts, lining up all these descriptions and everything, they're really useful. But then there's the next step, right that opens the door for Okay, let's start trying to verify rather than these kind of different groups
that are taking different approaches. One last thing, really quickly. We don't have to spend a ton of time on this, but this has come up over and over and over again, and it's been in my mind since I've been editing some of the stuff with Area X and I'm gonna put out later because there is this question of if and when these things are proven to be real they're accepted by science. Everybody has these opinions about what's going to happen.
The lumber industry is going to collapse. There's going to be thousands, probably millions of acres that are just sucked up by the government and given to
sasquatch to protect the environments of where these things are living. Let's talk a little bit about what you would see, even if it's hypothetic or you want to compare it to say, I did the newsletter last week talking about some of the species that we have stepped in as human We being the human race, have stepped in and helped build back up their numbers, the California condor,
the cheetah, even the gorillas. Let's talk a little bit about what you would see as the potential ecological and environmental factors that would change or be affected by these things being proven as a species, and then we have to step in and try to protect those ecological resources and their environments that we believe these things are in. Yeah. So first, I mean everyone thought when the government finally released the UFO information it was going to be a game changer.
Everything was going to change. They had congressional hearings this last summer. Paid close attention to the hearings. The government didn't say, oh, yeah, there's little space aliens out there. They verified that there are these unidentified objects that they've interacted and that there are things that don't appear to be technology that we have currently. They didn't say, ah, they came from you know, pick your favorite exo planet that you want to pick. It didn't
change anything, didn't change the narratives of people at all. Ardently religious folks didn't suddenly say, oh, crap, aliens. Things are completely different for US folks who already believe they're aliens. All it did for them was they went see we were right all along. That's the first thing I think that if and when I'll say if sasquatch is ever shown to be a biological species, I think for a lot of people, it's not going to change a
lot. They're gonna go okay for the government. First off, the logging industry will collapse because of its own ineptitudes, their lack of understanding of ecology itself. It will keep going as long as people need toilet paper. I mean, honestly, the idea that the government is just going to snatch up all these acres. Have they done that for grizzly bears? No? Have they done that for gray wolves? No? Two pretty big charismatic species that
you can put whole campaigns around. Here. In Oregon, we just had wolves delisted off the endangered species list on the east side of the Cascades because ranchers are concerned about them killing their calves. They kill a couple of calves a year between six or seven different packs, and the ranchers get financially compensated top market value for those calves, so they're not really losing on it.
But the point there is the government is not proactive. They're not going to come in and go, well, hey, now there may be a huge ground swell of folks who demand that some area be cordoned off, but you'd have to declare something, put it into the monument's bill that you have to fit it into that. You've already got places like the Cascade Siscu National Monument that's already a protected area, that's a big supposed to squatch area. So
I don't see that happening. I don't know that it changes things drastically for folks in their own personal narrative. I think where it would shake things up massively, of course, is within the scientific arena. I think academics would go bananas. I think that would make it almost worthwhile the chaos it would
cause an academia. I think here's the other thing that it would do for those of us who are interested, maybe on the academic side or scientific community side, it would force us to have to rethink how we kind of think of things fitting within ecological niches, and how we think of things evolutionarily, because we don't have any non human primates that are in North America that we know, sasquatch would be the only one, so that itself would make things
really odd. I mentioned before that most of the descriptions of sasquatch fit it within a bare ecological niche, and in most biomes, large species do not share ecological niches. There's a reason that lions and tigers don't overlap even in Asia, and they don't even share the exact same hunting knit but they're both
large cats that are hunting large animals. So if you have sasquatch basically filling the same niche as black bears and living in the same area as black bears, scientifically, that's gonna cause a lot of folks in biology to rethink how they structure niches. Waine, did you have anything else before we let Hogan get out of here? No, I can't think of anything right now, but I'm sure I will soon as we get off here. That means we
just have to do a round three. Hogan. I cannot thank you enough for coming back on having a conversation with Wayne and I. Man, it is always a blast to talk to you. We appreciate you very much. Safe travels on your upcoming I guess expeditions would be the right word, not for Sasquatch but for other great apes. You keep your head on a swivel out there, Man, it sounds like you're going into a hairy situation out
there. Oh thanks, It's going to be a blast. It's actually gonna be my daughter's graduation present from high school, so she's been wanting to go to Africa since she was three. Doing it. Yeah, But before that, I'll be at the Glide Sasquatch Festival to check that out. Second year in a row and Glide Oregon. It's a fun little event. Belgrum was there last year. I know that you guys hit those up every once in a while. They're fun. But you know, I'll just say this really
quickly too, about that we're talking about the folks with the notoriety. I mean, look at some of the people who show up there at some of the festivals. You think Mick Jagger walked in the room. For a few minutes. That's how I feel everywhere I go with Wayne, It's just like Mick Jagger has walked into the room and everybody's clamoring to get to them.
Brian, I just want to say that I completely agree with you. For folks who accomplish things that they get recognized by their community or by other folks, they totally deserve it. But the endorphin rush that people get from being Mick Jagger walking in the room, it can get pretty addictive, and that's part of our natural biology too, so we can't blame folks for that at all. For me, it's just fun to watch how people get kind of a fanboy over a certain folks walking in I always look at it as not
just we all put our pants on one leg at a time. Everybody gets cranky, everybody gets hungry, everybody needs a way to blow off steam. We're all just human. So I look forward to engage a few more folks this year and see if we can get some good conversation going about their evidence that they've actually seen. Who knows, maybe we'll cross pass at one of those one day. Brian, good to see you again, Wayne, Nice to meet you man. Yeah you too, buddy, I look forward to
future conversations. There you have it, Wayne, that was a cool conversation. It sounds like we've got plenty of stuff. I mean, I only got to a couple of the questions that I really wanted to get to today's Pogan is an interesting guy. I like his approach. He's certainly into the
Bigfoot thing. He likes the phenomenon. I think that's what makes him approachable when it comes to these things, because there are PhDs, there are other people out there that are just ard and skeptics that you can't get anywhere with. I love the fact that he is so skeptical and he comes from a very scientific based approach to this, but he wants the phenomenon to be real. He wants these things to be real. I think that's the real allure
for me to talk to people like him. I love his approach to the subject. This is the first time you got to have a conversation with him. What are your thoughts closing out on the conversation with Hogan. Yeah, I remember when you had him on before. I've talked about it. There's been a few times where you will send me the audio from an interview one that you find particularly interesting, like the sex with Sasquats one was one of
them. Doctor Hogan Trueau was another one you sent it to me before you put it out, you know, just to get my opinion on it. I remember telling you and I think I might've said this on the episode. Hogan seems like a good dude. He seems like one of us, Like we would get along really well with them, we go out and have a beer, shoot the shit with you know. He just seemed like a really good dude. One thing that I really like, he just touched on it,
I think is awesome. He is a skeptic. He's a skeptic because he's very scientific minded. He's extremely intelligent. You can tell that he doesn't think that they're real yet he has all this bigfoot shit. He talked about his exterra being decked out with all kind of sasquat stuff, just like my jeep is. Because I love the topic the phenomena. He doesn't think they're real, but he wants them to be real. I think that's really really cool. As always, you get the last word on the show. All
right, everybody, We appreciate all of the continued support. Please write in review every chance that you get. Keep those emails coming, the voicemails. We love getting those. Until we talk to you again, y'all. Take care of yourself, take care of each other. Bye, und