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begin. Hey guys, welcome back to Sasquatchpots. Thank you so much for being with us for the show. It is Friday. I hope you guys have a great week. We have an amazing guest line for you. But before we get there, I want to start by fighting you. If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email and get me a Brian at Paranimal World Productions dot com. Get head over to the website, check it out, become a member there and help
support the show. As I said, we've got a great guest lined up. I got to sit down with Henry Franzoni and if you guys have seen Sasquatch Odyssey The Hunt for Bigfoot, it was a documentary from back in nineteen ninety nine. Henry is the guy who has a pretty big segment there and he's playing the drums, So if you haven't seen that, I suggest you
check that out and you'll get a great idea for who Henry is. But he's here to share his personal experiences with Bigfoot, and we also get into some of his very interesting theories on Bigfoot and what he's discovered along the way in that journey to find those answers. He just completed a new book. He just sent me a copy of it. I got it yesterday and I am certainly looking forward to getting into the book. But for now, we've got Henry here, so I know you guys are ready to get into it.
Henry's on the line, he's ready to go. So you got to sit back, relax and enjoy the show. All right, books, don't welcome my guest to the show. It is Henry Franzoni. Welcome to the show. Henry. Greetings, greetings, nice to be here. I am glad to have you. So let's get right into it. Let's talk about this sasquatch thing first and foremost. You've been doing this for a ton of years, but let's take everybody back to the beginning and tell them what got
you interested in the bigfoot subject. In the first place. I went camping with my wife in the mountains in Oregon, and I went to a place that the Indians said evil God of the Woods lived there, at least that was the story that went with the name. And we went up there and we ran into something that blew our minds. And we didn't see a thing, but we smelled something and it really smelled like Bigfoot or what you would think. It smelled like a big wet dog. So this happened one night
in nineteen ninety three, and somehow that was it. I went wandering around wondering what I ran into, and met Peter Byrne, met Gray Crow, and then fell into the Bigfoot world. From then on, I had a lot of other Really, I had a lot of strange encounters over the years, and my very first one turns out to be literally five minutes after I looked for Bigfoot. But I wasn't really looking for Bigfoot. I was trying to see what the Indians were referring to as the evil God of the woods.
So that's how I kind of came in through an Indian connection. Boy, you know, it's a slippery slope. And after that I spent thirty years of my life wondering about it so well, I definitely want to get into the Native American connection to this. But would you mind taking us back to that first time, in that first experience. I know you said you didn't see anything, but would you tell us tell me in the audience what happened during that incident? Well, the very very first one, the very
very first one. I know I was hesitant because I've told it so many times, even at the time I did interviews in newspapers. But basically I missed a turn to this place called Scuocum Lake that's had about five thousand feet on a mountain named Thunder Mountain in the Cascades in Oregon, and I went about a quarter mile paste it and I went shit, and I turned around, came back, and as I came back where had I had just been, now there was this really pungent smell that smelled like a wet dog and
was really pungent. And I stopped a van. It was just jet inky darkness, and all the crickets stopped right at the same time. And then my wife, who was sitting in the passenger seat, said to me, I'm really tired. I'm going to take a nap, and instantly she fell asleep. It was weird how she just fell asleep in like ten seconds.
And so I was sitting there and then I had long hair at the time, and it stood out all the way around my head like a huge like Albert Einstein thing, with the hair sticking straight out everywhere, like a static electricity charge was taking over my hair, and I could feel all the hair and my skin standing up and everything. It was static electricity, and that went away, and then the smell went away and my van starter motor was blown, so I could never start it again. It was stuck there and
we had to camp out in the van overnight because it couldn't move. So something physical had happened that I couldn't ignore, which was the starter motor burned up the rest of it. Whenever I told anybody at the time, they were like, oh, you know, that's you're insane, or what drugs were you on? You know. One form of perceptual failure or another was how people thought this was, and usually it was impossible, so therefore I was the one at fault. So after a while I didn't talk about it
much. But that was just the very first moment that I ran into it, and I said, well, I think this is what people call Bigfoot because of the smell, and the crickets seemed to know what it was, and the crickets started up when the smell left. So the whole thing was really, really strange. And I said, jeez, if that's what Bigfoot is, you know, maybe he is the evil god of the woods for
all I know. I realized that I was dealing with something way beyond my understanding immediately, so I became part of the board of advisors of Peter Byrne's Bigfoot research project. We went out and investigated four hundred and eighty five sighting reports in Oregon and Washington. Peter wanted to look for something he called geo time patterns, and that meant we built a database and then we looked for patterns. We looked to see if there was any pattern in the data.
There was there four hundred and eighty five sighting reports. You know, let's just say there really weren't any patterns that were too visible at that point. Later, when I had a lot more data, I was able to figure out some patterns. But yeah, that's what got me started back then,
is I fell into it in nineteen ninety three. There were already a handful of people really into it, John Green and Peter Byrne and Grovercrantz and Reneeda Hindon, and I saw the big problem of that moment was to somehow get those four to collaborate and share their data, because each of them had valuable
information that they would not share with anybody else. I came to understand what I had done by building a database for Peter Byrne in large part was because John Green then would not share his database, and Peter Byrne really wanted a database like John greenhad. And when I read Apes among Us, that's the first thing I thought was. I read Apes among Us John Green's book, and I said, Wow, I'm gonna make a database and start analyzing exciting
reports. You know, that was like a no brainer. Look, of course I was going to do that. And then one thing led to another, and by nineteen ninety eight, John Green and I were having a meal together in Vancouver and he looked at me and he said, the one thing this world doesn't need is another Bigfoot researcher. And I said, what he said, you're to blame for bringing all these Bigfoot researchers and minting them by
the thousands by bringing Bigfoot to the Internet. And I said, well, you know you created me because you wrote apes amongst us And I said, god, I have to make a database and take it to the web. Wow, you know, like have to do that. So I just thought it was funny thinking back on it now, because I understand now, look what's happened. Yes, you can look around and see the results today. There's definitely some issues with Bigfoot the community, the online community in particular.
I've talked about it at nauseum on the show before. It can be a very toxic environment. I think it does some good. I think there's some good parts of it. I think there's some bad parts of it. Like everything else, I try to take what I like and leave the rest. Basically, let's talk a little bit of about the first couple of things that happened that you were involved in on the internet. Let's talk a little bit about the IVBC. Tell people who may not be familiar with that what that
is and what was your involvement in that. I created it. I created the very first Bigfoot discussion group online that had people like Matt Moneymaker and Cliff Barrickman were members, and Ron Moorehead and John Green, very same people were talking about and yes, we used to aren't doing much like you all do today in the very very first one. And I was the administrator and person
that said. I was a computer dec that said, hey, man the web, look at these mailing lists, look at these automated mailing list things we can do. Hey, check this out, Let's do this. And so I'm actually it all sprang ahead of my head. The whole idea of putting a Bigfoot website together and creating a club around it and say hey, let's seek the mystery, and then putting all kinds of recordings and stories and photos on that website and having a discussion group. And so if I had
a penny for every website that exists today, I would be rich. Unfortunately I do not. And that was the best idea I ever came up with. But I didn't know that that just showing people how to do it and going, look, you can proclaim yourself a Bigfoot expert on the web, create an organization and you know, figure out a position on the Patterson film of course, so that people know where you stand and away you go. There you are. So I kind of created the template for everyone to follow,
and I have mixed feelings about that. Okay, you know I can understand it. Go into those feelings. Let's talk about some of those feelings. What's the good, the bad, and the other. Well, you know, I see it like I encourage it to be like sports where people treat some people. I mean I can't really, you know, I don't like saying bad stuff about others. Much like you. I ignore everybody all the time and pay no attention to anything whatsoever online or even in books or
anything. I just live in my own world with Bigfoot. That's what has driven me to over the years, is you know, just complete divorce from it. But on the one hand, it's like sports teams, everybody or not everybody. I shouldn't speak so generally. There are camps, there are schools of thought. People aren't really interested in being reasonable. They're both have frameworks of rationalization, they're not actually rational, and they don't want to be
reasonable with each other. They each have their checklists, and they each have their sports team, and they already know what they think, and they basically expect you to confirm what they already know or think or whatever, and that whole environment. I feel like, oh my god, you know I had something to do with that. So I kind of feel pretty crappy about that
because it's really descended into a sort of a parody of itself. I mean, it was always those elements were always there people, but they become so mean and so well, let's just say, from my perspective, all the different people insides have a different piece of the puzzle, and I think that I could show them how if they understood how each of them is missing pieces, they could see how it all fits together, because it all does fit
together for me. I mean, honestly, now I have, like, at least I think I got a beat on now, which is thirty years of thinking about it. You know, everybody's got to beat this, Like, hey, you got a theory, throw that theory on the campfire and let's have a marshmallow roast, you know. I mean, really, it's not like I'm hung up on it, but I do think that the dialogues it was crappy thirty year. It was crappy in the beginning, but it's gotten worse, you know, it's gotten more to me, it seems that
way. The little that I pay attention to it, I see really hardened positions. And another thing that I sort of started was people should be scientific in their approach and science is good, and let's use the scientific method. Then I became a scientist for real. And now I'm retired after a thirty year career as a scientist for real, and I see the big footers and
other than a couple of people, I see wannabes. I see a lot of hand waving and cries of must be scientific with people that have no understanding of what being scientific is like. I don't see a lot of science. I see a lot of talk about science, but I don't see any actual science, not much, let's say so, I'm surprised nothing's really advanced for the community, you know. I feel that I made a lot more progress on my own than the rest of humanity did just flogging each other online.
Well, let's talk a little bit about that. That's something that's been sort of a theme on this show over the last year and a half or so. I've talked about the proverbial ball being on the five yard line in Bigfoot research, and I think the Patterson Gimblin film probably put us there, and along the way there may have been a little bit of inches of movement here and there, but in general, we're still stuck on the five yard line. And as far as I'm concerned with the research, I know you've got
some theories you're you're definitely not in the flesh and blood camp. I certainly want to get into and talk a little bit about that. But that's something that it sort of happened for me over the last year or so is I started opening up my mind and thinking in other ways and looking at this from different angles. Because we've been doing the same thing for fifty plus years. If we're still on the five yard line, we're not doing something right.
Going out and beating on trees and screaming in the woods has only taken us so far in this research that we're doing to find these answers right, So let's start there. I think I'm pretty confident I know where the majority of your basis for this lies. But let's talk about the Native American connection. I doubt it. Actually, Well, let's start at the Native American connection and talk a little bit about that basis for you and the knowledge and the
experience that you have talking to the Native Americans about Sasquatch in general. Well, where to begin, Where to end? Where to begin? The thing about Native Americans is, boy, you can't generalize. That's the first. Generalizing what Native Americans think is a good way to get in real trouble right away. If you take my joke is, if you have ten Indians and you put them in a room, you'll get eleven opinions, because that's how
it is. There's individuality that must be taken into account when you're talking about these groups. Everybody's as human individual and within all the tribes there's a full range of opinions about everything, ongoing discussions that have gone on forever and ever, you know whatever. There's a lot going on. So the basic thing is that if I could really stretch it and kind of generalize across the tribes
I'm familiar with. There are spirits such as ancestors. There are spirits such as the ellip kilicum, which is the click attack words for the people before. Stay tuned for more Sasquatch Odyssey right back after these messages. The people before also are referred to as the animal people. They're referred to as a lot of different things, a lot of different names. Ancestors comes up a
lot. The thing is is that the tribes, this geometry of space time where we all live together, this place we live is run by a tribe of Indians that are spirit Indians, you could call them, but really they're just a very advanced form of the people before. The people before exist around us and are the guardians of the geometry of space time. So when you get past the flesh and blood level and you get to the level of consciousness
that underlies flesh and blood, you see there's physics involved. Tier. There's a lot of existing, fewer physics that actually explains what's going on. So the thing is is that you're going to see that the tribes field look well, for example, one time I saw, well, there's an experience I had where a bunch of tribal members referred to Bigfoot as him and the big man and him, and we often would just use the term him. When I was in India country wouldn't identify pass that and we knew who we were
talking about. But that person is thought of as like our elder brother Indian person. They look like Big Harry gorillas, right, But no, to tribes. That is a elder brother person, a spirit person helper that most tribes would tell you protect the tribes and are the elder brothers of the tribes
helping guide them and protect them. And so I mean I'm speaking now generally when I say most tribes, because really it's specific people within those tribes that may think that way, and there may not be more than a handful in each tribe that think that way. You don't really see that this knowledge is
really shared widely or anything like that. But it's an entire different view of the world where everything is alive in the first place, because remember, in tribal thought, rocks are alive, everything has a spirit, plants are alive, and Bigfoot is just another spirit, but it's a special spirit and it's one that's in charge of this geometry of space time, like a giant tribal council sitting up there in the sky running the show. So that's kind of
where Indians think Bigfit's at. That's not really where white man thinks it's at. And really speaking, you know, the massive white men don't think that way, so you know, it gets pretty weird. It certainly does concentrate on what you think. You've had thirty years to take a look at this, and you said you have a pretty good grasp of it. Where are you on Bigfoot as far as the balance between flesh theory. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about your theory. So a biologist looks out there and
he sees flesh and blood. He sees predator and prey. He sees the gnashing of teeth, he sees a blood bath, he sees you know, if he's fancy, he sees evolution, he sees adaptation, he sees how there is assemblages of creatures and symbiosis, and how energy is transferred through food, through the ecological biosphere. And you know, biologists though, that's flesh and blood. Flesh and blood guys have a framework. Their framework is usually
Carl Nasi's taxonomy and DNA some mixture thereof. In other words, they go, well, for it to be scientifically valid, we must connect it to the tree of light, because then we know where it fits in the tree of life, and therefore we are scientifically valid, or at least connecting to an existing scientifically valid framework, which is the goal of what pretty much all of the scientifically inclined the Bigfoot researchers in some way. I mean, I've
seen them argue about it for thirty years. So there's other frameworks and science that are very valid, for example, general relativity. This scene as also a valid description of our existence, because what we're trying to do here is say what is existence? If you want to prove Bigfoot exists, you have to define what existence is. So is existence finding a place in Carl Linnaeus's taxonomy and saying, Okay, it exists. I found where it belongs.
Is it a place where you examine DNA and you go, I found where this DNA fits into the tree of life. I see the connections between it and everything else. You know, these are ways of showing its flesh and blood ballot. Let us say, but we also know that physics involves another way of looking at existence. Where a physicist looks out there, he doesn't see flesh and blood. He sees ninety nine percent empty space and one percent something he doesn't understand, and he goes, what is here? Is what's
here? What's going on? And physics keeps advancing and they give novel prizes for things like the local reality is false, because they have now proven that nothing exists till you look at it, and they've done actual experiments to prove that theory that nothing does exist though you look at it. So how do you square that with the flesh and blood thing? Okay, you've got to square the two of them together somehow if you want to be scientifically valid in
more than one framework or context, and there's certainly both valid contexts. So the way I have approached it is to modify general relativity by actually multiplying both sides by one over Kappa. But that's another story. But the thing is, general relativity is to a physicist a thing that explains the relationship between the curvature of space time and the distribution of matter, energy, and momentum. And so the two sides of the equation. One side of the equation is
just a geometry of space time. The other side is the n and gravity, gravity and the energy. And what I'm showing is that by modifying general relativity you can begin to explain how consciousness underlies the flesh and blood level of reality. There's actually another level underneath flesh and blood that's physical that physics explains, and it has to do with the connection between consciousness and with the physical
world around us. In other words, flesh and blood involves creatures with souls, and so you actually have to understand the physics of how your soul and your body are connected to each other for you to understand how the soul and body of Bigfoot's connected together. Because you know, it's something like you, it looks like you. It doesn't have a soul like you, it probably
does. Have you ever looked in the eyes of one least seems like they have a soul when you do. So I don't believe in any paranormal anything. I believe that there is a physics revolution that is beginning now that will unfold through modified general relativity that will enable us all to understand how Bigfoot does things like turn invisible and be telepathic and move through solid matter and teleport and disappear and walk through snow without leaving footprints, et cetera, et cetera.
So I'm not like any other research here at this point in time. I'm actually a hard science guy who sees how the weird stuff works. At least I'm going to propose a theory about it, you know. So that's you know, that's that's really that's why I was saying, I doubt you really
knew what I was thinking of advance, you know. But that's where I've come to after thirty years, is I've been trying to mix saw these things together, including explaining Indian lore, and I found that the modified general relativity really gives me the science to understand a lot of the Indian wisdom that I've learned from my adventures in helping out the tribes for the last thirty years as a scientist. So I think that it brings it all together, is what
I'm trying to say. So did you start there? Did you start in the flesh and Blood camp? Did you start out thinking these things were flesh and blood? And was it some of the experiences that you had over the years. I know you've had some pretty strange experiences. Can you think of a couple that maybe you could share with us that would demonstrate some of these
abilities that you've witnessed personally that you've seen that these things can do. Sure, No, you know, from day one I was right in the middle because I smelled something and that story I told you that really smelled like a live animal is smelled like a wet dog. And we all know where to wear dog smells like, you know, but it smelled like a really pungent wet dog. So I was like, man, that's a living creature, you know, like it had the smell of white whatever that is. Yet
I didn't see anything, so it sat my starter motor. So I was like, wait a minute, is it flush and blood or is it? Like what the hell is going on? Okay, it's a really good problem how to merge those two sides, because from the very first experience I was torn in half. I was like, huh, how does how does that work? How does that possibly reconcile? You know, like really blown starter motor and stinky smell and crickets and the whole thing was just too weird for
words. So I was borderline, let us say, because like everybody else, well, I actually became a biologist for real government biologist, a supervising government biologist in fact, so believe me, I could stay, I could color between the lines, and I could stay as flesh and blood as anybody ever. But in my heart I was always like, no, it's weirder than that, far weirder than that. I know, I don't understand I always withheld judgment because I said, I just have had enough experience as to
know I have no idea what's going on. It was over my head. It was far too bizarre, and it got really, really weird. But yeah, the early days were really a mess. One that I could tell you about that really was a turning point for me was around nineteen ninety five, we ran a phone number that was one eight hundred Bigfoot in Oregon and Washington, and the idea was, hey, it's like a nine one one call and you had a big foot sighting call, us call one eight hundred
Bigfoot. So we released this number for five years and we most have got calls. I mean it drove you crazy, literally ninety nine hundred calls. So you know, it was really no good. But the goal was we needed a report that happened within twenty four hours, because we had been collecting reports for five years and we never got anything that happened within twenty four hours. Everything happened two years ago, ten years ago, last month, six
months ago. People did not come forward till later. And so one day we got this twenty four hour report and it was from the downs right next door to hood River where our office was, and I called up Peter and Todd and all these guys and I said, hey, we got a fresh
report. And it was seven big feet walked down this valley and over the ridge at the end of a box canyon out of the valley, and three people had called to report this, and so it was like, Wow, something must have happened, because I was sitting there by the phone and rang over and over and I was like, hey, wow, you know, big time action here. So we raced over there. It was a Sunday
and we got there. There were three groups of people in this valley, one on the left, one on the right, one in the middle, and they were all separately doing things like tobogganing and sledding and shit. So we interviewed everybody. Everybody said seven big feet walked down the valley and over the hill and we all saw them. And these groups did not know each
other, at least they claimed not to know each other. Okay, so then we actually Todd and Peter the big trackers got down on their hands and knees and they went looking for tracks through that entire valley and they found rabbit tracks, and they found mouse tracks, and they found every other kind of track you can imagine in that snow, but they did not find a big footure. So after spending literally six hours on their knees, they just said,
no, everybody's yanking our chain. This is blowney and we all went back to the office and they went home and I went home. That was that, and it went down in the files as that was a mistake. They were all mistaken. That's what Peter and Todd decided that they were all mistaken. There were no big feet. I was the one weirdo that was like, nah, something else was going on. Those people were shook up, and they weren't lying. I believe them, you know, like I
believed the twenty witnesses, right. I was like, wait a minute, those twenty people have no reason to make this up, you know, Like, why didn't it leave tracks? That was my problem. Everybody else was like, oh, the witnesses, you know, their credibility, Their credibility of the witnesses was in question. But I was like, nah, why didn't they leave That's the question. So that's the sort of thing that led me to make physics kind of questions more prominent in my own research, because
I said, there's got to be physics that explains that. That's got to work somehow, that's got to be what happens later in life. I found other people that had witnessed the same thing. Some of my tribal friends had told me about Bigfoot walking through the snow leaving no tracks. So, just because they were like three or four really trusted friends of mine, I said, you know, that's really what happened that day back in ninety five,
and I knew there was something to it. I knew they could walk through snow without leaving tracks, but I still didn't understand how they could do that. So that's why I went off in my direction. I said, well, I'll have to figure out the physics of how they do that. You mentioned some other things that have come up on the show before. I've had Hard Bouchard on. He's written Sasquatch Evidence of an Enigma, and he has
interviewed tons of people who have had really strange encounters. One that comes to mind about a gentleman who claimed to be in a cabin and the hand of a sasquatch comes through the wall, touches him on the forehead, knocks him unconscious. And he wakes up like six or eight hours later. The cloaking
thing is always something that comes up in the community. A matter of fact, I'm a guest on a show tonight, and when I was talking to the host of that show the other day in preparation for that, he was showing me a video that a lady shared with him. I think her name is Barbara. Shoot, She's got all these videos of what she claims to be cloaking bigfoot. I mean, I could see something that looks very much like the Predator movies from the nineties and early two thousands, when it's in
that cloaking state. Have you yourself witnessed any of that kind of stuff, cloaking, disappearing, or being able to walk through or travel through walls. I mean, is that something that you've experienced? Yeah, what's many times? I'm five, ten times? Yeah, I've lost count, you know, like I've had I've had a big foot if you would call. I prefer to refer to them as the elliptylicum. The people before stand next to me completely invisible and laugh and laugh at me. I've had them invisibly.
While I was driving my van, come into my van and on the inside ear that's facing the console in the middle of the truck. Someone comes right up to my ear goes like that, like, hey, you know, like and I'm talking about closed windows moving on a highway. I've had. I've had so many whack ball experiences that you know, my credibility will be
called into question if I tell them all back to back. But yeah, as my dear friend Bobby Bigay, who has passed, told me, they have an agreement with the Creator to remain invisible on this plane of existence. Actually, Bobby was the first fisherman of Salilo village, so he was an elder, an elder of a Acumen Nation subtribe. So yeah, I mean I could go into details. You guys like the stories. Here's one.
Early on, I had so many weird things happened to me that I made up a law, which is, the more you investigate Bigfoot, no matter who you are, it gets weirder and weirder. At the beginning, you can just say, hey, I saw a bigfoot cross in the road. Hey I knocked on a tree, something knocked. But it just keeps getting weirder and weirder and weirder. The deeper you get into it, and the further you go and you will have more and more questions. You don't get
answers, you get more questions a very long time. And yeah, I've a s I'm cobbled together a theory that I'm like Goodwin these days. But I mean, there's just this theory right. The thing is, this kid disappears in Oregon at a rest stop I can't remember Highway twenty six, I think it was. He walks off into the woods and a big search party's for him. They can't find the kid. The kid has three dogs with him and he's missing for three days. They have this huge search team put
together. They get the pros mount Hood Search and Rescue from around here at that time, just like nineteen ninety five. Also, they assemble in a rest stop and the kid walks into the rest stop and he's three years old and he walks out of the woods right into the rest stop and they go,
whoa, you know, where's the kid been for three days? And he's fine and they go wow, as dogs must have kept him warm, you know, the three dogs gathered around him and they go wow, you know, and the kid goes, yeah, yeah, the dogs kept me warm. But the big monster showed me where the stream was, where the
berries were to eat, and stay tuned for more Sasquatch odyssey. Right back after these messages, and so all the adults he says this on TV, and I see it on the Channel six news, right, and I'm like, whoa, you know, wholl I know what that means. And of course the news and all the adults are like, oh, you know,
little kids, the stories the little kids tell. And I'm thinking to myself, Nah, there's something going on where if a human babies and genuine need whoever, these creatures are actually have like some compassion and they like to help out because they feel it's necessary. So I'm thinking like that and going,
wow, something's going on here, you know. So I talked to the Cracker, the big time tracker who ran Mount Hood Search and Rescue about his whole thing, because I want to find out about what the kid said. Right, I'm trying to interview him, going, hey, hey, the kid, I want to know what the kid said. I don't care what the adults said, forget it. What was the kid saying? So he goes, well, no, I got a story for you, he said. You know, I tracked him, and sure enough, the kid and
the three dogs. It was light snow, like two inches of snow. So he said, there was like a kid and three dogs, and then suddenly there were these really big footprints alongside him, and they walked together for quite a while, and then the big footprints turned into deer tracks and I said really, he said, yeah, like a shape shifter. I said really. He said, yeah. Don't tell anybody I told you that, but that's what I actually saw. And I said, okay, I won't
tell you now. Of course he's dead and I can speak candidly. But that's one of the really strange stories where I investigated that at the time for the Bigfoot research project, and I was like, whoa, what's really going on here is way weirder than anybody imagines. And everyone else who investigated it was like, oh, yeah, wow, the dogs saved the kid and everybody's good and we're all good and you know, and I was like, no, this was really freaking weird. And I became convinced at that point
that Bigfoot was a shape shifter. I was like, well, other people might not know that, but I've seen the hard facts now I'm like, no, Bigfoot's a shape shifter. This guy had no reason to know swear me to secrecy and tell me the story. So I was like, yeah, you know, there's a lot of weird stuff like that. I met a really old rancher. Well. I used to weekly. I helped set up the Western Bigfoot Society with Ray Crow, and I financed a computer for
him to do the track record his newsletter. That was a Bigfoot news letter that was published through I don't know, five or six years back in the nineties. And I used to go weekly to the Western Bigfoot Society meetings and I would meet the most amazing people in the back of the room that had come to the meetings. But we're like two of parade to get up in front of everybody and stuff. And I would mill around and try to talk to the old ladies at the back of the room, going why are you
here? What's happening? So I met this lady who ran a gift shop on the Oregon coast, and she had a friend with back problems, really bad lower back problems, and was going to need surgery. One night, her and her friend. Her friend came over and she took her friend to meet her friends, and her friends lived in the hill on the hill behind the IF shop on Highway six in Oregon on the coast. They went up this hill and this woman was the woman with the bad back, and her
friend said, now don't look face me and just relax. And so she faced her friend and she felt these hands all over her back and all over up and down her back, rubbing her back and legs. Her back pain went away, and so they had healed her. Her friend said, now, don't tell anybody about this. But she had come to the Western Bigfoot Society and thought maybe she would get up and tell people about it. And I said, well, no, I'm glad you told me, though,
I said, you know, I find that really interesting. I met another woman who thought a brand new Corvette Stingray in nineteen sixty eight and was speeding up the Spirit Mountain Highway on Mount Saint Helen's the first day she had this car, and she just took it right off through a guard rail, off a cliff and down into a ravine, about one hundred feet down a ravine, and she remembers lying all mangled in the car at the bottom of the ravine. For she has a memory of it. But the next thing she
remembers, R and her are backed up on the road. She's next to the car on the road and the cars on the road, and the police come and they take her away by ambulance and her life is saved, and she reread its Bigfoot with saving her life once again. What was illustrated was some kind of concern when a human life is really in need of help. And I thought that was really interesting. But like that, and that's not so what I would say. That's not really a woo woo type story so
much. Although it's pretty difficult to imagine how they got the car from the bottom of the ravine up one hundred feet back onto the road. I mean it took some serious strength, man, it took something. I would meet so many people when I did the four hundred and eighty five sighting reports that would tell me the wackiest stories. One family went camping and they found a track and they cast it and they were all like, oh, man,
wow, this is great. I found a Bigfoot track. And they weren't even that into bigfoot, but once they found this track, they were just thrilled and they were all about all bigfoots around, so they of course, we're looking all around the campsite for where Bigfoot might be in They got in their car to drive home, and the car radio suddenly came on and something kept chanting, Chota Chota, Chota choctwa, and the AM radio dial was set to the lowest possible frequency, below five fifty on the AM radio,
and they couldn't stop this chanting from coming through the AM radio. And they were convinced that this had something to do with Bigfoot because they had been getting these vibes to get out of the area, and they've been filled with fear, and they thought, you know, the old inexplicable fear thing you hear about so often. They were all like, oh, we got to get out of here. And then this thing was chanting. The radio was chanting,
And I always thought, well, that's a pretty strange one. But yeah, I'm like I said, I've just got so many either my own experiences were trusted weird experiences that I investigated myself where I said, something very strange occurred here. There's really an endless list of them. Like I said, the more you get into it, the more you see the anomalous things you see, what doesn't fit the eight pattern. You go, oh,
yeah, tracks. But then after you look at enough tracks and you're cast enough tracks, you go, there's a weight problem because they're either too deep or they're too shallow, or there's too few. Yeah, there's never too many. Do You never know where they stop and where they suck. A lot of times they'll be in the middle of a soft sand bar with no other tracks around. So you start to wonder about the tracks after you really
study the details of the tracks. And speaking of science, nobody has ever sat down and said, well, if I have a two inch deep track in this substrate, what is the compressibility of this substrate and therefore, how much does this creature weigh if it can push this soil down two inches and compress it with a foot with that much surface area, Because you know, it's a lot of weight. But no one's ever even tried to calculate.
Which is an area that I think would lead to interesting discoveries scientifically, because all the tracks I've seen don't add up like a normal animal. They disappear, they don't go anywhere Where do they end? Where do they start? I mean, that's how it is for me, and I've found a few real tracks out there, at least I think they were. You know, once again, this is kind of the thing about the science and Bigfoot.
It's science or science ism, because nobody's narrowed the problem space by doing actual experimental work and said, okay, we can narrow the problem space here scientifically speaking, and at least do that. Now, this brings up the second problem, which is there's a location problem. When all is said and done, everyone knows where the hotspots are when you compare it to other discoveries of other species, like the coalescent, the confirming example found thirty seven miles away
in the Commoro silence fourteen years later. I think it was so from the first Patterson film till now, and not that that's even a solid that's anecdotal evidence. Anyhow, there's been no type specimen and no confirming type specimen with bigfoots, So you know there's got to be a reason for that, right you know. That's the thing is that people don't look at the next generation of bigfoot researchers will study all the anomalies in the data in this generation's research,
and they will understand a different level of things. Is my prediction. Hopeful prediction. Yes, I think you're definitely right there. We've mentioned it a couple of times. I would be remiss if I didn't ask you. It is anecdotal, but it is that thing that everybody always goes to. You mentioned it early on in the interview. You got to pick a side one way or the other on the PG film, And I'm honestly, I'm
fifty fifty most days. There's some days I'll look at it, and then there's some days I go back and I'm like, God, you know that could be a guy in a suit, right, And I know there's a new AI image out there that I've talked about with other people that are floating around where they filled in some of the gaps and the picture whatever. I said all that to say, where are you on the PG film's validity? Do you think that's a real creature that we're seeing in that film? You
probably don't realize. I published a paper in nineteen ninety eight name Towards the Resolution of the Bigfoot Phenomenon, where we spent five hundred thousand dollars to in fact investigate the Patterson film and higher scientists to prove it was a hoax. Or a guy in a gorilla suit. And Jeff Glickman and the Botech led up the whole scientific research thing, and we went through the whole banana,
and I got a copy of the Patterson film from Patty Patterson. I paid her twenty thousand dollars to digitize the only remaining first generation copy of the film from her safety deposit box. Took it to Turner Network Studios digitizing facility, and New Jersey digitized the film that an incredible resolution, stabilized it twenty years before the rest of you did all this research into the different photoemulsion layers of red, green, and blue and looked at the Patterson film and each one
of those layers. I mean bottom line is and this is where I think common sense has to take people by the hand and show them that this left brain stuff is really getting carried away. Patterson film is really of a limited use because if you look at the Bigfoot phenomenon as a logic problem, there's four possible origins for the bigfoot phenomenon, and that is the phenomenon is people
keep saying they see the giant. People find these tracks, they find hair samples, they heard these knocks, right I mean, that's the big Foot phenomenon. It's all these stories and some tracks and some samples. So there's four things that could possibly cause it. Right, you could have a misidentified animal like a bear. You could have aped a guy in a gorilla suit. You could have a mass hallucination where everybody just wants to believe in a
Bigfoot. Or you could actually have sightings of an uncataloged animal. That's number four. And so the Patterson film eliminates two of those four possibilities. You know it isn't a guy in a gorilla suit. That doesn't add up, and you know that it's not a mass illuction. Wait, let me take that back. You know it's not a mass illucination. It really gets down to it's either a hoax or an uncataloged animal. And so the Patterson film
forces you to narrow down the possibilities to those two. That's what it's good for. Thanks to the Patterson film, we know it's either a hoax or it's a real animal. That's all we know from the Patterson film. That's all we will ever know from the Patterson film. That's where I say common sense has to take charge. Let it go how about doing some other research, you guys, after sixty years of poring over this thing, I blew five hundred grand on it. All right, you know what happened in my
Patterson film study. Everybody ignored it. They pretended like it was never done. They reinvented the wheel. Everybody went out and did the same thing all over again, over and over and over. All the conclusions we reached back in our nineteen ninety eight paper they suddenly rediscovered over and over and over. It was completely ignored by everybody, all the big foot researchers and all the
real scientists. So I learned my lesson with the Patterson film, which is that, yeah, okay, you can learn something from the Patterson film, whether it's a hoax or a real animal is basically you get down to those and then you've got to take it from there and leave the Patterson film, because you're never going to figure out from the Patterson film whether it's a hoax or a real animal. I mean, we've been trying for sixty years. Maybe we will figure it out one day, but I don't think it's worth
the return on investment. I can speak to that, having invested so much so I'm like, no, it's time to move on, find something else to study. One of the things that we concluded at the very end of our paper was that one of the best things you could do was to get all the Bigfoot artifacts that were floating around out there, liked the Patterson film and get it under curation so that future researchers would have access to the data and would have access to the We did the second, the first copy of
the Patterson film. The original's gone, but you can still get a copy of the first copy and preserve it for future generations to study. Because we couldn't get to the end, we couldn't prove it was a guy in a guerrilla suit, nor would we therefore prove it was any flesh and blood thing either. Yeah, I totally have to you know. In the end,
through all those words, I'm in the same place you were. Who knows, fifty fifty five hundred grand poorer fifty fifty okay, Yeah, Well, I'm glad I didn't spend half a million dollars to get to my fifty fifty. Yeah. Really, it's not worth it. I hope I saved you the money. So I guess the last word is this. Every time I do a show like this and it goes outside of the flesh and blood camp, I'll always get emails. I get people sending me messages saying that guy
was full of shit. You know that story is not true. I know you well enough to know that you don't give a shit what other people think. So I'll give you the last word on where you are. You've gotten to your hypothesis, on your theory on this bigfoot thing. Is there anything that you would leave as far as parting words? You stepped away from this for almost thirty years and here you are back on the scene for all of us that are in this for you know, a short just a blip on
the map, basically compared to how much time you've given the subject. Is there any advice for anybody that's listening that is into this subject and they want to take it seriously and do some research. Is there any last words for them that you would leave to them? As the generation coming up, it's going to be looking at all this data that we've talked about, question everything. Why No, I'm just being an asshole. My advice is follow your
intuition and ignore all these assholes instead, think about Chewbacca. Yeah, that'll get you closer. Yeah, there you go. That's my advice for the kids. You're right, I don't really care anymore about other people's opinions. Tremendously. It's one of the most fascinating subjects ever. I would have to say is it's really interesting, and it really connects everything together. It's really amazing. It's one of the most worthwhile subjects of study. That's what I
would say. Well, there you heard it, folks. Henry Franzoni, thanks so much for coming on the show. I've had a blast talking to you, and I really appreciate you sharing your stories and your perspectives. If yes, I'm happy too. I'm glad. I'm glad you like stories. Yeah. Generally speaking, I am about to I should pump my book one last sec I'm publishing a book called Failing in a Cooler Way, How I
Failed to Find Bigfoot. That's the name of it. And it's an ironic title because I think I actually have found it, you know, But that's for you to decide. They say you don't want to go home, but jesting and no, I don't want to fee the world out that inside Jesus trying this joy that chime everything calling right back, Ride back with my joy for me Joy stay right now. I'm calling right away. Stsssssssts about about bottoms, games and US, uses US and use us and jasus