Tamsen Webster Say What They Can't Unhear

welcome you aboard everybody. I want you to meet tam Webster. Hey, Tamsen, hey, hey, good to see you. Thanks for joining. So what was the what was the driving force behind this book? I know that's a boring question, but, but I wanted to know because I was like, Wow, I love the topic of this, but what was it that made you say, Okay, here's, here's what's needed out in the marketplace.

a lot of ways. I was watching him talk about his various pieces and philosophies, and I said, you know, so much of what he talks about and what you talk about is so good about in getting an immediate action, getting action and a yes right away, and what I'm not hearing, at least in what he is saying, and as I was thinking about what else is in the marketplace, I don't see as much and hear as much about how to keep that yes

as a yes. How do you keep someone how do you get a yes that doesn't back away and become part of buyer's remorse? How do you get a yes that doesn't turn into a ghost? How do you get a yes that doesn't turn into well, you know, the you know, procurement said no, right? So, how is it? What are those concepts, in a very similar way that Phil presents accessible, memorable, quick and to the point do I know from all the time that I've spent doing long term change might help

shift that? So it really was that moment. I'm like, huh, he's got these concepts. I'm like, I do too. So I wrote them and created nine persuasion Proverbs, as I like to call them to really focus on not just action, but sustained action, keeping the yes, a yes, yeah. I

make when they're trying to accomplish this? So So presumably, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but the goal is, how do I how do I say stuff that's sticky that doesn't then erode and get diluted over time, and people kind of forget and don't care anymore?

say yes to. So one of the things I often say to my clients is that remarkable may get attention, but relevance keeps it and there's a lot of things that we do sometimes to get attention to be different, to be a challenger, to be controversial with somebody, particularly that we're meeting with, perhaps for the first time, so that we can stand out. That while they may get that attention to start with, in many

ways, it works against long term change to begin with. So I would say that in addition to focusing on, how do we be different, how do we stand out? The other big mistake is focusing on quick action rather than long term, sustained changes in thinking or behavior, and that oftentimes is a different set of principles.

most directly impacted? We unpack all this other stuff that now makes it so that we can come back to them and say, okay, in order to solve that underlying issue and get this outcome, this is what would suggest. But if we didn't do that, if we just jump to the solution, we kind of get this watered down problem that they have that doesn't have a lot of relevance,

somebody tells themselves. And one of the ways that I talk about it in this new book is that every action somebody takes ends an internal argument in their heads about why that action does or doesn't. Make sense, right? And so if somebody chooses you or doesn't choose you, it's because they are telling themselves a story about why they should or shouldn't. And so the whole idea is, if we only give people the problem and the solution, which is just the beginning and the end of the

story, like that would be a very unsatisfying story. You know, if it were a once upon a time story, I often use the Star Wars example of like, well, once upon a time, there's a Brady kid named Luke, and he saved the galaxy. And you're like, Okay, fine, there's no conflict. There's no why would I listen? You know? And, and the equivalent is basically saying, oh, that's your problem. Here's our solution. And then when we when people really want that deeper connection, and the

connection in between is, why is that the solution? Then, oftentimes what we end up doing then is like, benefit bombing them and say, well, you're going to get this and you're going to get this and you're going to get this and you're going to get this, and that you still haven't actually explained why your

solution would legitimately solve their problem. So they you're not giving them all the pieces they need to tell that story to themselves, which is absolutely why they can't tell it to somebody else either.

long has it been going on? What happens if you can't solve this? What have you tried so far? And what I tell my clients is, look, if they say, Well, I haven't really tried anything else, it's probably not that important to solve, because they haven't tried anything. If it's something important, they say, Well, we tried this, we tried this, this didn't work, that didn't work. And there's research that says the greatest reason why people pick one services vendor over another is

how well they feel you understand their situation. So as soon as you jump to the solution, you're talking about yourself, not them, and their favorite topic is them. And if you can convey that you understand and help them understand their predicament, then they're more likely to be open to the solution. So where do these proverbs tie into that kind of stuff? Because I'm sure they do. Yeah. I

want, what they already know, what they already care about. So if we are not focused on that piece and we're just trying to get that quick action, then again, we may not get that long term. Yes, we may get somebody asked because yes, you've raised the stakes, or you've made the pain of the status quo exceed the pain of change, or whatever it might be. But also, just to

your point, it's also reaction to you. Because if you're trying to introduce a new perspective on this problem, if you're trying to get them to see consequences that they're not seeing, if you're trying to reveal to them that there is a deeper problem underneath the one that they know about, then the biggest source of new information is you, and so much of how you approach that change whether or not you make them feel worse as a result of what they've done, if you make them

feel bad about what they've. Doing if you make them, if you insult their current vendor, right? By insulting their current vendor, your consult, you're insulting them in many ways that that can absolutely set you up for failure at the

beginning. So that's why I made that the first proverb, because I think a lot of times we just think that the information is enough to make the case on our own, but the approach that we take is just as important, because so much of what people are reacting to is you,

myself out. Yeah, exactly. I'll just leave because it's not gonna work. And Deborah and I have adult children, so 25 and 23 we didn't fire their pediatrician. It's just our needs changed. We no longer had we no longer had children. We had adults. Yeah, and the pediatrician basically said to our son, look, when you have to shave before coming to the doctor, it's time to you know, skip the pediatrician. You know,

who are coming here. It's like, Okay, fair enough, right? So that kind of, that kind of helps to illustrate this notion of, we got to get to that type of issue. We got to get beyond just this notion of, you know, us against them. It's more, how do we get on the same side? How are we trying to solve this puzzle? It's okay, like, the that vendor you chose was probably the best vendor on the planet at that time in your in your situation,

that was awesome. And now that your needs have changed, we can expand this to new stuff that you hadn't thought about. And I go, well, that's kind of cool. Okay, exactly. Yeah, we can do something different, and we can get more going on with that. Wow, this is cool. Okay, there's something else to talk about. So the first proverb is this idea of every action is a reaction. Is that? Right?

got you scheduled for 10am on Tuesday. Here's some references, because if the person doesn't believe they have tennis elbow. It really doesn't matter. And if the tennis elbow isn't affecting their life, they're not going to subject themselves to surgery. And it's the same thing in this business world, where we're

trying to make it so that people understand that exactly. Walk me through the Proverbs that and kind of how this is different thinking for people, because I know that it is because I know the way your brain works, and you're always thinking of stuff that most of us wouldn't think of. Yeah, and, and, and, I don't want you to give away everything in the book, because people should get

one. Every decision has a story. So what I'm talking about there is it's not just an explanation that we're giving people. We have to give them an actual case, and I mean that quite literally, that they can make to themselves and to other people about why that particular action makes sense. Then it's like, okay, well, if it's an argument, what is it based on? And that's where the third principle comes into play, and that is that the

principles set patterns. And this is one of the, you know, what I'm getting at at this one is that, you know, when we're thinking about what we say yes to, and this is, I think, one of the places where it's the book really starts to diverge from other people's thinking is that these actions, these arguments that we agree with, are based on beliefs that we already have.

And so if we're trying to understand why someone's doing whatever they're doing right now, we have to stop and think about, well, why would it have made sense to them in the first place, and then from there, we can have a much better understanding about why something different would so those first three are kind of setting the stage for understanding how change happens, but it's the next three that I think are the most countercultural when it comes to sales messaging. Particular

it however works for you. But that's true. That's what I'd like our listeners to understand

need to change what they believe. This is where it goes wrong, because, as I say in the fifth proverb, that the deepest beliefs are the hardest to shift. We know this intuitively, right? The longer somebody believes something, the stronger they believe it. But what that means is, is that when you try to bring in a new belief, saying, well, that's not your

problem. This is or you don't want that. You want this or this is the real reason this is happening, even if they say yes, which is unlikely, because, remember, they're going to say yes to things that agree with what they already have agreed with. Then even if they do say yes, then you've got this little, tiny, weak baby new belief, like the first time it gets tested, running up against this 800 pound gorilla of the

way they have done things to date. So what I have seen now work over and over again in sales, messaging, all sorts of other messaging, is, instead of trying to challenge their those beliefs that are getting in the way, search for another one that is stronger that they already have. So what that means sometimes is saying, All right, so you don't think you know, if I try to actually say, Stop doing this. Do this. Instead,

unlikely that someone's going to do that. But generally, there is something else that they agree as far as how sales work, how people work, how maths work, how the world works, that actually is much more reliable and supports the changes you're trying to make that then when you put those two things in a fight, it's much more likely to win.

probably like a six, really. Why six? Well, because this working, but that isn't okay. So and then using a line from Phil Jones would be well, so how open would you be to considering something different? And now it's like it was their idea to do something different, so it's okay. But if you come in and say, well, doing it that way is going to be awful, they usually are going to

be resistant if you say to them. So other clients of ours, when they've done it this way in the past, didn't even realize this was what was happening. And when they've moved this other system, these other great things happen. How possible you think that is in your situation? Then they go, Hey, I got this idea that maybe this would happen. And you're like, oh, it's brilliant that

you have that idea. But it's more just about sharing, like, if we share a third party story, someone goes, Oh, yeah, I'm probably a lot like them. If I say to you, you should do it this way, I'm probably going to get resistance if I say other people had this, but that probably doesn't apply to you, right? They're like, well, it totally applies to me. It's the same thing, but it now became their idea. So, you know, this, this notion. Of those deepest beliefs being the hardest ones

to change. Totally get that and and too often I see people make a mistake of trying to fight that, and it's a losing battle. If you want to get top results for your team, take a look at these same side, selling Academy. Just visit same side selling.com to learn more. That's

the stories that we already tell ourselves. So the thing is, like, when you work, and as I say, to be don't challenge people's beliefs. Exchange them, exchange them for something that they know or that makes more intuitive sense than what they're doing now, or functionally, when they put it together, like, ah, yeah, based on what I know to be true, based on my own experience, your prospect can say, yeah, that

actually does make more sense. Like I was talking with someone who works at a social media management company, and, you know, and again, there's lots of options for that, lots of different things, so it's hard to stand out in that

marketplace. So it was funny, because we were on, I was on a podcast, and he paused, and he just, he showed a he showed an ad for them, and I said, you know, what's so interesting is that the case, you know, all these testimonials that you picked, all of them talk about kind of the reporting and all of that. And I'm sure it's very tempting to say, or our reporting is so much better, but this is one of those places

where they can stand out. Because clearly what's important to the folks that they're talking to is visibility, right? And the more that you can say like, the greater visibility you have into what's working and what's not, the better you can manage your social media platforms saying something like that, where someone's like, Well, that's true if, yeah, the better I can see things, the better decisions I can make. Then all of a sudden you've supplanted anything else that

says what you know. Instead of making it about this program versus that program, you're like, Well, now you've made it so that visibility means everything for my

for you guys? It'd probably be the same for us. Okay? And now it became their idea, the people you're talking about in the social media marketing company, yeah, I think the notion for them of being able to say, for example, so that visibility is important, but if they if their messaging was almost talking more to the problems of other people, and say, you know, a lot of times we had clients who said, in the past, the people they worked with, they didn't have visibility into what was

going on, And without that visibility, by the time they realized something was or wasn't working, they had wasted a lot of money on it. So we've changed that to give instant visibility so they can pivot as soon as they start seeing results. How would you guys use that? Now the client goes, Oh, if I had that, I would do X, Y and Z. And now it's like, well, forget about the company I was working with because I had that same problem. You know, we often say that people are highly attuned to the

symptoms they're experiencing. They just don't know what the what the condition is that's causing it, or how to treat it, but they know what the superficial symptoms are, and if we can tap into that, then we get their attention. That's

this way. And that's what we've seen with our clients, is that when they do X and Y, they see, and that has been just for me in my work, as I've been working with folks, you know, with this, with particularly with these Proverbs, but in this approach of really finding that, you know, I call it a core case like this, this, what is the underlying argument for what you

are, what you're putting out there, like, Why? Why is it that you believe this is right, without resorting to features, you know, flooding them with features, or, like, benefit bombing or anything like that, like, like, really, like, in a way that makes intuitive sense to them, what ends up happening is that your clients end up saying, Ah, yeah, I agree in principle that why this would work, and with that kind of that early and really critical, yes, secured, then you can start to

dive into the details of what it looks like in practice, either for other clients or potentially for them, so that you can start to go into needs discovery and all of. Yeah,

for me to solve. Now you have their attention. If someone says, Well, here's this thing I'd like to do, and you start talking about your solution, what you fail to recognize is that they may not really be bought into how big of a deal this is yet. And so your solution, they're like, well, that's kind of cool if, if it was a big problem. Now, the salesperson says, well, but you called me, it must be a big deal. No, they're just like, huh, I got this issue. These

guys claim to solve it. Let's see what they got and but they're not bought into it yet. And I think that if we do this right, we're providing our clients with information. So in essence, if we ask the right questions, they'll convince us that things are worth solving. And if we can convince if we can get them to convince us that it's worth solving, they're also convincing themselves. And then all of a sudden, now it's like, Okay, now, now we're on to something where, okay, now we

can say something that they can't unhear. Because mostly what we're saying is their ideas. We're just kind of spitting them back to

to solve that, we have to solve this thing first. Because let's go back to the social media thing, because if you can't actually see the results of what you're talking about, you can't solve it. So that's why it's been so important for us to make sure that when we're working with clients, we're actually really focused on visibility. This gets really powerful when you can say, but that's not all right when you can actually add this other thing that says, because you know, you can have a

whole bunch of visibility. But if, if, if one thing is showing you things in black and white and the other thing is showing you in color, then you may not actually be able to match anything up. That's why, right? We want to make sure that if we're if we are getting visibility, that we have a clear view and we're using the same lens on everything that we're looking at. So that's why, in our comprehensive system, right, x, y and z. So, and then you can again relate that back to the

client. So it really is this, this piece about, like, going back into those, into those beliefs, about using the beliefs as the core data that's supporting your case for why you and that, I think, is really where this, this approach, goes. You know, I think speaking about where we end up going wrong sometimes, is we, we? We want to flood them with all the data and all the information, all the facts and the figures, but you know very much along the lines of what you said, they're going

to believe their own experience most. So leverage their experience, leverage what they know to be true, and explain why your product works based on their experience. And then you've got to really that's what becomes very difficult for them to unhear. When they're like, oh, this solves a problem that I know I want solves, and the way that it works is based on

principles that make sense to me, that I believe are true. And from there, it becomes a lot easier for you to start anchoring the more more practical and tactical pieces of what you've already presented.

either say, no, no, it is. You don't understand. But if we say, Wow, that's probably a really big deal, usually the client goes, yeah, it's not such a big deal, even if it is because they feel pressure from someone else. I used to do this exercise with people pre covid That now is less popular to do, which is I would have people put their hands palm to palm against someone else. And I gave instruction cards, and half of

them said to gently push against the other person. And half them said, push slightly, and then slowly, draw your hands away from the other people. Yeah. And if you looked in the room, you could not tell the difference of who had which card, because the people who pushed got resistance, and the people pulled their hands away, the clients tended to follow. And it basically came down to it. If you create something of interest

and slowly pull it away, people will want to follow it. If you have something of interest, but you push, you tend to get resistance. And this whole idea of being able to say what they can't unhear as I hear it, is this notion of if we tap into their own beliefs, if we tap into the stories that they can that they can believe, if we give them this idea of these principles that form patterns, all of a sudden, now we've got a framework that says, Okay, I believe this. This is something

that isn't foreign to me. I can buy into this concept. Am I? Oh, absolutely, close.

invested, so that they put the money behind it. And if we operate from this understanding that, you know, every every decision like that, every choice, every Yes, is the product of an argument, then we need to make sure that we're supplying that argument, and if the arguments we agree with are based on on what on the beliefs we already have, then the whole

philosophy of the book is really what it comes down to. It is that if we're trying to build buy in, we need to be building these arguments that are based on what people already want, already believe. So I think where you know you I mean, I've always loved so much your approach, and I really love that, that that visual of, if you give them something interesting, they'll follow. What this book really does is say, make sure that whatever they followed will they will

continue to follow. Because, as you also pointed out, there are those times where people will say yes, either to get you to stop talking, or because they don't want to lose face. And there are some principles in the book that speak to that. So one of them, the fourth one, is that identity is the greatest influencer. And what I mean, and what I'm talking about there, is that one of the most reliable desires that all humans have is

to be seen as smart, capable and good. They may not believe that they are, though many do, but they really want to be seen that

way. They want to be seen as smart, capable and good and long term, that desire will override anything else, which is why, if we make someone feel stupid for something that they've done in the past, if we are using, if we are introducing pain into the initial sales discussion to get them to act quickly, and yet, what they stop and think about it, they're like, oh, actually no, I am too smart, capable of a good person to have done that, then we may get the initial movement, but it will not be an

initial movement that stays that way, because that desire to be seen as smart, capable and good, again, not by you the salesperson, but by the people they have to see every day, is going to take over. And so it's, it's, it's really just asking people to think beyond that first moment. And it's and great salespeople already know this. It was one of the reasons why I was so delighted that Matthew Dixon, the co author the

Challenger sale, gave me my cover blurb for it. Because, in a lot of ways, you know, the whole idea of challenging what people's beliefs is about is useful, if, right, if, if, if we're doing it in a way that helps them validate their smart, capable and goodness, and doesn't make it conditional, which is what I think a lot of times we, perhaps unintentionally, do, while saying, Well, you will be smart, capable and good if you make this decision rather than you

are. And there's why this decision makes sense.

should be doing it this way. So why don't you take a look? And you're like, why did they not switch to us? And it's because we made them feel badly. If instead, you say, look, these guys were probably the best vendor to pick at the time. And what some people found is that just they've gotten so sophisticated as a company that those vendors can't service them anymore. You think that's possible with you? Oh yeah, that's probably true. Now it's like, I didn't make a mistake.

It's that the other vendor can no longer support me, and that's, that's what's happened. So

that's not the right example. But if it's, but if it's, if it's half as good, it's still going to be amazing. So, and I'm sure it's even better. So thanks so much for joining me. Thank