Sake Vessel Series: Guinomi

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America's premiere sake podcast. And I am one of your hosts, John Puma. You may know me from the Sake Notes. You may also know me as the guy who runs the internet sake discord. And furthermore. Also, the guy who runs the reddit r slash sake community.

That's a lot of running,

It's a lot of running. You would think I'd be in better shape, Tim.

and I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan. I'm a Sake Samurai. I'm a sake educator, and I'm also the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand. Yes, John, you're running, you're running around in circles for sake, aren't you?

I'm trying to try to get the word out, Tim. I'm using and using technology to do it. So I got reddit. I've got discord. Just trying to give people places to chat about sake. I think that's that's that's the way forward at least. With my personal talents. That's what I could do.

you're doing the Lord's work with technology. I love

Somebody's work. I don't know yet So, um, it's good to see you again

Yeah.

It's you know, it's it's been a little bit We had all those episodes all these episodes backlogged from when we were in Virginia and now now we're recording In zoom, I don't wanna say in person but in zoom again and I'll, I'll, let me tell you something, the vibe's a little bit different. it was kind of interesting to just look across the table and there, and you're right, you know, right there.

I know we, we've been recording on zoom for years and then in one day we were together for like five episodes across the table. It was quite a shock to my system, but yeah. All right. Well, what

Yeah. Uh, and, and the fact that we're still doing the show, you haven't gotten sick of me and I'm very impressed. Uh, yeah, we are going. Back to one of our series. I uh, this is the series where we talk about different sake vessels.

We've done a lot of these. How many vessels are left?

this might be like the longest running now. It's probably the prefectures that has been the longest running or it has the most episodes, but this is probably a strong number two. Uh, and in my mind, so it's like the sake vessel series, but in my mind, it's kind of become the. Can you beat the wine glass challenge?

can you beat the wine

um, so far the wine glass is undefeated in my mind. every time we do one of these, I feel like the wine glass, uh, gives me, um, uh, a bigger expression of the sake or a, a more full expression of the sake, but. You know, I love that we're exploring these. I I'm getting to try some I've never had before. I'm getting to try some I've only had in restaurants.

Yes. Well, you may not choose the vessels that we talk about. You may not choose them for your everyday drinking. But, you're going to come across them in restaurants and different situations, and I think it's important to be educated as to why a restaurant might choose a vessel other than a wine glass for given styles of sake. Yeah, and they're, they're historical and interesting. So it's, it's all around good stuff for me to, to try these different vessels.

so I have a vessel in front of me that, that we've discussed

Yes.

and, uh, I need to know what is this thing.

Well, we've talked about a whole bunch of different vessels so far, and the most common vessel you're going to come across in Japan is what we call the ochoko, right? Ochoko is a small ceramic cup, usually about two to three ounces. It's really small. And it's usually... Ceramic, smooth sided, and it's meant for, you know, just one little sip of sake, basically. And it's meant to be refilled, and that gets people at the table talking, but that doesn't always fill the bill.

No, it doesn't.

Sometimes you want a little less formality and a little more fun times,

Ah, you're taking the, the express route.

yes, so enter the Guinomi

guinomi. All right.

Guinomi. Yes. So the primary thing that separates an Ochoko standard cup from a Guinomi is the size. So Guinomi is going to be larger. Hold more sake per pour.

All right. And so how much more sake?

I would say if an Ochoko on average is two to three ounces, a Guinomi would be a little bit more than double that.

Whoa, it's so it's a turbo ochoko

It's a turbo ochoko, it's an ochoko on steroids is what we're talking about here. Yeah, so there's a few characteristics that again, there's no legal definitions for any of these things. But when you say guinomi, the impression is that it's going to be a little bit bigger. And in my mind, they have an impression of being like rough hewn or not delicate. So it's a larger cup meant for drinking sake and they often have like a texture to them.

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I think I've definitely had, really small ochokos that generally, sometimes they get paired with, small carafts and they'll kind of pour them around the table a little bit. And the expectation, because the craft isn't huge, is that you're just going to have kind of a, a small tasting. And as you pointed out earlier, it's like, you know. Kind of a social thing you're going to because if you keep the pouring happening, you're probably chatting while you're doing it.

It can be both. It's not considered exceptionally polite to pour directly from a bottle into a sake cup, so usually they use a carafe of some kind. Normally in Japan, you would buy the sake by the go. So a go is 180 milliliters. You can get a carafe that's one go, a carafe that's two gos or three gos. So normally you order by the go, or the 180 ml, and then they'll bring an appropriate size carafe to your table. And then you would pour from that.

okay.

Now there's something really fun about guinomi that I want to tell you, John. So guinomi actually contains an onomatopoeia.

Hmm.

Now, an onomatopoeia is a word that represents a sound,

Right.

right? And there's an onomatopoeia in gui nomi. It's the

Gui.

GUI. So let me, let me, excuse me while I make a noise here. See if you recognize this, gui gui gui gui gui gui gui.

Ah, so like the, the, the, the pouring of the drink. And nomi, I imagine, is drink.

Nomi means drinking, right?

Nomi means drinking. So go, go, go, go, go, drink.

It's glug. It's, in English we say glug. Like glug glug glug glug glug glug glug. So, gui, gui

we're going with this.

so it's like drinking, uh, gulping. Drinking is what it means, like gulping down sake. So it's a, it's a glass for gulping.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

No,

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

but I think the reason that the guinomi or the gulping cups are a little less refined is because that's not meant as the most elegant way to consume sake. Like gulping down your sake is not the, doesn't give you the impression of like refined elegance. It's a little bit more rustic. So I think the cups kind of reflect that in their style.

Okay. I can see that. That makes sense. Because they are, as you pointed out, you know, they usually have a little more of a not gonna have as much of a finish on them. I kind of like that.

Yeah, Ochokos are often smooth sided and, you know, like glazed, and they have this like very smooth edges to them. And Guinomi are more like rough hewn and rustic. So, John, you have a Guinomi at home, don't you?

I do, actually.

All right, well, why don't you, we'll put a picture of it in the show notes, but why don't you describe it for our listeners?

Sure. So, um, it's going to be interesting to describe this. So it's made of clay. And it definitely has the feel of, It definitely has the feel of a cup that was spun. And then was slowly kind of formed on the sides because there's, there's these, there's ridges the entire way around. So you can feel, you can actually trace the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the rings, the circles going all the way from the top of the cup to the bottom of the cup.

So it's something that you feel was thrown on a potter's wheel and kind of shaped and then,

for sure.

yeah. Is it, is it glazed? Like, is it, glaze is like melted glass on the outside of, like when you glaze something and you heat it, it's literally like this layer of glass on the outside of some ceramics, but does it feel like rough? Like it doesn't have a glaze on it

mine feels rough. It feels very rough. Yeah. there's no, there's nothing, uh, they're not standing on ceremony. There's nothing fancy about this cup. It's just, it is just a nice cup to drink sake out of.

Yeah, yeah. And what color is it?

Uh, it's, uh, like brown or brown or gray almost. Yeah. brown,

earthenware brown

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Great. So yeah, these are, um, these are cups that are meant for larger volume, less elegance, less ceremony.

Mm hmm.

And I think they're really good to know about.

Yeah, I'm, I, so the funny thing is you mentioned this to me, you're like, Oh, I want to do an episode on Guinomi. And I was like, great, what's that? And then you asked me if I had any, if I had any, you like described it to me. And I was like, You know, I do actually and I went through my, uh, my, my cupboards and I found it. And, um, actually this was a, it came in a set of two.

Perfect timing. Deploy the Guinomi.

Absolutely. So, and I, I assume that you've got a few, so, um, yeah. So why don't you talk a little bit about yours?

Yeah, I have one. Uh, this is a, uh, also kind of an earthenware one and it has a hammered texture on the outside.

that's interesting.

yeah, so it was definitely made with this stuff. emphasizing. It's not just like it was rough clay and they just kind of roughly smoothed it. They went the extra mile and they created a hammered texture on the outside of mine. And I would say this holds a good five, six ounces in it. So it's much larger. And there's a fine line between like a small teacup and a Guinomi. So sometimes I've seen like things that could pass for a teacup being used as a Guinomi as

Mm hmm. Yeah, I can see that I can see that kind of Getting those those borders muddied a little bit yours also seems to be pretty glazed on the inside a little shiny

Yeah, it has a little glaze on the inside, but it's rustic on the outside. It's a very unique one, but it's heavy and it has thick walls and it has all the characteristics of a guinomi.

Yeah, it is. Mine is also is quite for its size is quite heavy.

Yeah, I want to take one moment to talk about a topic that I know very little about,

oh, I love it. This is what I do every week on the show.

which is high end, super expensive Japanese artisan ceramics.

Ooh.

If you're not steeped in the ways of high end ceramics... You know, you may not appreciate the beauty of it, and. I've had a limited exposure to the world of high end Japanese vessels that also are sold in a market that is equivalent to fine art, so they're viewed as sculptural objects in a lot of ways. I know, again, I know very little about it, but the only thing I wanted to interject here is that. There are guinomi made by famous, famous artists and sculptors that sell for boku bucks.

Hmm.

So, you can google it, look for them, maybe I'll put one in the show notes. But ours do not fall into that cateogry

No, no, they don't. No. So you're, what you're trying to tell me then Tim's that you're not in the market for, artisanal. Multi thousand dollar fine art gunomi. That's not that's not your vibe.

I'm in the market. My bank account is not in the market, but I'm in the market.

Noted. Noted. So if you come across free or inexpensive artisan, you're not just going to flip it. You're going to keep it.

Definitely going to

All right. All right. So if anybody over there has anything, Tim's a buyer,

I'm a buyer, a potential buyer.

potential buyer. This price is

so... I just think it's interesting to note that there's this huge market in ceramics that I know nothing about, but they are prized and treasured and museum pieces in Japan. And I just think that's an interesting side journey on this talk about vessels. I don't think we can talk about Guinomi without mentioning that there's a fine art branch to this as well. That is just unbelievable. So that, that's a whole other podcast.

We'll need to have somebody from Sotheby's on with us for that one.

Yes, for sure. And I think I, I would feel different if I knew I was holding a 300, 000 Guinomi.

I think I

might shake a little bit. You would? My hand might shake a little bit. I would be nervous about dropping it, so.

Yeah, I think I would just kind of look at it and go, Oh, okay. And then just take a step away. I don't want to be anywhere near it. I'm not going to have a bag on my back near it. I,

You love a good backpack, John Puma,

do. And, but not with a, not with a several hundred thousand dollar piece of porcelain in front of me. I definitely do not.

If we have any listeners who are experts in fine art ceramics from Japan, please send us some high end guinomi to sample. Would

Um, so, uh, so Tim, I'm hoping that you brought some sake today for us to sip, um, out of this Guinomi.

Yes. So I put my thinking cap on and I knew we were talking about this rustic yet elegant style of sake cup, guinomi, and I thought what type of sake would be good for this. And I was thinking definitely a Junmai. And then A brand popped into my mind, Sogen,

Mmm!

and we featured them on the podcast before in a very early episode when I talked about, do you remember my story when I talked about going to Ishikawa and I got on the bus and I took it to the end of the island and got off and there was nobody around and I was lost? Yes. Well, this is that brewery I visited at the end of the Noto Peninsula in Ishikawa. Very rural, and I thought that this elegant yet just a touch rustic Junmai might be a really good fit for our Guinomi.

Sure. That sounds like a fun time. And before I do, let me tell you that Ishikawa does make me think of like, like for some reason, just like rustic sake vessels. So I think you might've nailed it here. This is good. Uh, so yes, as Tim mentioned, this is Sogen, uh, from, uh, Sogen. Shuzo over in Ishikawa, this is their Noto no Kuni, and, this is using Yamada Nishiki rice milled down to 65 percent of its original size.

Yeah, it's called Noto no Kuni, which I think means Noto country. So Noto again is the, the rural peninsula, and it's very much a area of fishing vessels, rustic windblown, and inhabited with a lot of hardened fishermen. So it is an area that's known for being like on the outskirts. And, they make a very elegant sake, very flavorful, super balanced usually. so we've got our sake, and we're gonna pour it into our guinomi and our wine glass.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, every time we try this, we try these vessels in our typical wine glass and then with the vessel of the week. And the idea is to see what each of those vessels brings out of the sake and how it differs from how we normally experience it. And for Tim and I, we normally experience it from the wine glass. All right, Tim got it in the cup.

All right, so we've got this poured. So I think our tradition, John, is to drink from the vessel in question first.

Right. Even though I think technically in science you're supposed to use the control first, but we're not doing science.

This is definitely not science.

more, this is much more art than science.

Yes. All right.

All right.

Mmm.

Hmm.

I can smell it. Smells a little rice y. Nice steamed rice. Mmm. All right.

Yeah, Steamed rice. Um, not, not so much the sweet rice that we get sometimes, but this is just kind of, yeah, a little bit of rice.

Let's give it a taste. Mmm. Interesting.

This, this pairs really well with the cup.

It does pair with the cup, right?

Yeah,

I'm, I'm like, Oh, I hurt my arm patting myself on the back here with this, this selection. Sometimes John, I have to say when we've done vessel in the past, I feel like we might've picked a sake that wasn't an ideal match. Kind of like, let's see what happens, but this one goes really well. Yeah.

I agree with you, I think that that this one is definitely nailing it. You, you talked about like, ah, the fishermen out in Ishikawa, you know, and they're a little rough and tumble, and then they have some of this sake out, out of a Guignomi, and I'm like, yep, that all tracks. Yeah. Uh, and I think that the aroma and the taste are very much in harmony. This is, you know, that rice that you're getting on the nose is a rice that you're getting on the palate. You know, very, very rice, forward.

almost. hesitant to call this a ricey sake because when I hear that, it triggers in my mind an idea like, oh, I might not like that if it's too earthy. If it's too rustic, I may not like it. But the thing that's different here is it brings the most elegant parts of the rice flavor forward. And there's also minerality.

It's a little bit, it's a, it's a, it's a little spicy.

Hmm.

Just a tiny bit, like on the finish. I'm like, Ooh, a little, little zing at the end. That might just be like a little alcohol burn also. Hard for me to discern at this point.

Yeah. You could say there's like a, uh, If you think of like white pepper or

yeah, yes, yes, exactly

hint of, uh, spiciness. Uh,

nice. It's,

overall, and, and this is like a super food friendly sake from a Guinomi like, oh my gosh, so many things I'd love to pair with this.

Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, I can. I think this is a sake that can stand up to a whole host of big foods. And I think this is a vessel that's going to go really well with the big foods. You know, I think I'm like, I'm just imagining like something grill. I'm like, I'm having yakitori with this. And you know, that's like my, my vision, I guess like I'm on the I'm in like a rural, um, Izakaya and I'm having some skewers. I can see him roasting them. Right.

the charcoal smoke coming off the grill

definitely. I can practically smell it.

All right, well, should we do our control now, Mr. Scientist? Shoot.

think we should. we should.

So I've got the Sogen in a, in a wine glass, our usual wine glass. Yeah. All right. So let's give this a smell. Hmm.

Hmm.

So, smells ricey,

it still smells ricey, but the rice is a little bit sweeter. Thank you. To

it smells marshmallow y a little bit.

That. Alright.

yeah, right? You're with me? Yep. Dare I say? Circus peanuts?

Not quite there. Not that far.

yeah, but

I think that's um, Circus Peanuts is like Marshmallow plus Banana.

yeah, this is, this is a little more mochi rice.

Okay. Yes.

Now, which aroma did you enjoy more?

I mean, it's What's weird is that they've, the aromas are I hate to use the word completely different, but they're really different. And it's, I feel like it's setting me up for a different taste. So I'm very curious how it's going to taste out of the wine glass because out of the guinomi, Oh, they were like. Perfect together. The aroma and the flavor were absolutely in harmony.

The way I would describe it is the aroma is in a different gear. like it's like a lower gear out of the Guinomi and it feels like it's shifted to, it's this, for me, it's a same, obviously the same aroma, but it feels like it, out of the wine glass, it gets kind of supercharged or, you know, it, it, it's in a different gear than out of the Guinomi. So let's, let's give this a taste out of the wine glass and see what happens.

I'm very curious to see what we're going to get out of this. You know, it's lighter.

I

That, that sweetness is present. I didn't get the sweetness, um, or very little of it in the guinomi.

one point I want to make, I just noticed my own behavior. So the Guinomi is about four or five ounces and the wine glass is huge in comparison. I feel with the wine glass, I took a larger sip out of the wine glass because Just deposits more on my palate. I think reflexively, I took a smaller sip out of the Guinomi and it just landed a little differently on my palate. That's all I wanted to say.

I totally understand what you're saying. I get it. Like this is a small. Uh, a smaller cup, you're going to take smaller sips. This is a regular size wine glass. You're going to take a wine sip. It's a, it's a, it's a larger amount. Now, do you want to go back, put a little bit more in the green Omi and have a larger sip and see what happens?

I've been doing that while you were talking.

Oh, well, all right.

No, I, I think that, this has been a little eye opening for me. I've always just reflexively reached for the wine glass when I want to enjoy sake at home. And now I'm thinking, like, why not a guinomi and appreciate the sculptural aspect of it? You're not going to get as much aroma. It's like, like I said, downshifted aroma, but it's really enjoyable out of the guinomi.

It is. And it's, it's different and not. It's, it's different and equally good in its own way, uh, so I just did try to put more, I Guinomi and I sipped it, uh, tried to get a bigger sip out of it, um, but the way that the larger sip hits your palate from the Guinomi is different from the way it does on the wine glass. On the wine glass, it's kind of natural and it just kind of flows to the, the width of your mouth. With this, you're kind of, it's natural.

Okay,

interesting.

this, this, I've read a lot of articles about the, how different vessels affect your impression of the sake, exactly what we're talking about now. And I've read some things about the angle of attack of the alcohol hitting your palate.

think there's something to that.

Yeah.

I think that once before we had a situation where we felt that there was no winner. It was just different. And I feel like that's kind of what's going on here is that these, the sake tasting experience from each of these is very different, but You know, they're both really good sake tasting experiences and. They're great. And I think that it might just be the vibe you're going for that day. Like, you know, what, what, what do you want out of your sake that night? All right.

Yeah.

I will not sip this on the couch out of the guinomi, though. That'll be a little weird. It doesn't it's just not it's not Mmm, it's not performing at its best for that scenario. Same idea if I had this in a wine glass or with the grilled meat, I'm going to be missing out on what I'd be getting out of the out of the guinomi.

It makes me think about all the many years of restaurant experiences I've had in Japan and in New York, and I was served a certain vessel. And as a consumer, I might not put too much thought into, Oh, why is this a Guinomi? Why is this an Ochoko? Why is this a wine glass? Why is this, uh, uh, you know, a Beaujolais glass or whatever? And you just enjoy it the way they serve it to you. But now I'm thinking like, Oh, maybe that restaurant chose that glass for that reason with this food.

Yeah. And, and that is something that, when I was first getting into sake, I was going to, uh, to Sakagura sometimes, uh, in Midtown. And that is, that was the first place I ever went where I would order sakes. And like, depending on what I ordered, they would give it to me in a different vessel. I was always like, what's going on with this? I don't understand. And this series that kinda has kinda helped me understand that a lot

Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, Sakagura in Midtown, here in New York, they are kind of the poster child for this treatment. They really pay attention to the type of sake, the profile of that sake, and what vessel is going to showcase that best. John, you and I can testify that not every restaurant goes to this level.

most don't.

Most don't, but they do a great job with that. And when you're at home, if you have these different vessels we've been profiling, it's really fun to experiment. And I think this is a classic example of how you can have such a different experience. Same sake and just a different vessel.

Absolutely. Um, this is, this has been eye opening for me as well. I just, it's not something you usually get. It's nice.

Yeah, it's awesome. All right. Well, John, so great to taste with you. Nice to visit Sogen again. it, it's one of my favorite sakes. I think I told the story last time I discovered this at a sushi restaurant and it's just been such a good standby sake. So I'm so glad to share it with you, John. And I also want to say a special thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in again this week.

And another way that you can support us is through leaving a review at your podcast platform of choice. They all got your ability to pop in there and just, you can tell people what you think about Sake Revolution. And it's going to help other people find our show. You can give us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Charitable, wherever you're listening, pop a review in there. It really helps get the word out about our show. Now on that note, please raise your Guinomi.