Sake in the Movies with Ben Haslar

Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America's First Sake podcast and I am your host, John Puma, from the Sake Notes, I'm also the administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord and the lead mod over at Reddit slash sake community.

And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan. I'm a Sake Samurai. I'm a sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

Well, Tim,

Hey, John.

have you, have you been to the movies in a while?

Not in person.

Not in person. No. You have not. When was the last time you actually set foot in a theater?

Oh gosh. Maybe six months ago.

Oh, that's, that's not that bad.

Yeah.

I feel like for me it's been at least a year

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, it's been a while. I don't, I don't get out to the theater that often and that's what, not as often as I would like, but you know, are you a fan of film? Generally speaking.

I am,

Alright, that's good.

I'm most a fan of is when I see sake in movies.

Ah, so you don't get to see that many films then.

No, I don't, but I do know someone who can tell us a lot about sake in the movies. We have a special subject matter expert on the show

today. Ooh, who

Yes. I wanna welcome our friend and big sake fan, Ben Haslar. he's coming to us from the Reels of Justice Film Podcast and we're gonna talk to him today about movies and sake. So Ben, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you.

Thanks. It's great to be here. I've been an avid listener of this show since day five, so this is a thrill for me.

All right. That's great. And, um, Uh, we already know that you're a big movie fan. how did you get started with sake though?

How did I get started with sake? You know, I've always, uh, had it from like the sushi restaurants and stuff that, you know, everyone's had. Uh, and I liked it and it's not bad. my aha moment might not wow anybody, but it, for me, it was, uh, the Momo Kawa Ruby, uh, that, that I. Had chilled for the first time, which is not available anymore, sadly.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

We'll, we'll keep that aha moment on the DL for now. Yeah. Now, you are a member of the Reels of Justice Film Podcast. Can you tell us a little bit about your podcast and how it connects to movies?

Yes. Uh, I'm a cinematic lawyer. Uh, we kind of have a joke where like we put movies on trial to see whether they're guilty of being a bad movie or not. So it's somewhat reminiscent of the show. Mystery Science theater, if you've ever seen that. Uh, but we, the, the good thing about the show is you get both sides of it. You have a lawyer who's unabashedly pro and a lawyer that's unabashedly against it. So you see both sides of, of each film.

Well, full disclosure, yours truly, Timothy Sullivan. I was a guest lawyer on an episode in February, and Ben you and I went head to head, didn't we?

Yes. And you, you beat me, sir. You beat me handily. I don't wanna spoil it, but it was, it was such a great, uh, recording. We talked about, uh, the last Samurai, a film I still like, but I do admit it has. Flaws. and it was such a great discussion and Timothy was so great on that show. No joke. We talked for 20 minutes after he hung up about how great he was on it. So you should absolutely head over and check it out. And John, you're coming over Someday too, I hope.

At some point. At some, I, I was supposed to make the last Samurai, uh, edition, unfortunately, uh, COVID had other plans for me that day. When we, uh, think about sake and we think about movies, I think that, the first movie that comes to mind, uh, for, for a lot of us sake enthusiasts, is gonna be the Birth of Sake, uh, from 2015. Now, so this. When it was in production, they were, or pre-production, they were doing, uh, like a Kickstarter. I was a backer for that movie.

your name in the credits

Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the credits.

right under John

Uh, wow. Good. Lucky me. Tim, did you, were you, uh, at the ground floor on this

one I was a backer as well.

Aha.

it through their Kickstarter, but I wasn't listed under the Kickstarter supporters For some reason. They had a, a title of special thanks, and I got put on the special thanks,

Hmm.

would've, I could have been on both, honestly.

I mean, I'll take special thanks if I can, if I can get it. That's pretty good, I think.

I put you first, right? You're thanked first and then

Yeah.

Ben, I know you've seen the Birth of Sake, it's kind of the big kahuna when you talk about sake in movies, especially cuz it came out relatively recently. Do you wanna give us a little bit of a summary from your point of view, a high level summary of what this, movie's about?

Uh, yeah. It's a very, Contemplative look at one particular brewery Tedorigawa Brewery, uh, which does things in the very traditional fashion, uh, as opposed to, you know, they could put it against like the, the modern ways of doing things where everything's kind of done by machine. All of this is done by hand and is done with great intentionality, uh, carry on their traditions, like going way, way back. So that is the focus of the Birth of Sake. It's, it's a very intentional film.

Yeah, and I, I think a major theme of the documentary is the transition of generation. Like they, they talk a lot about the older master brewer, the older toji. Yamamoto San and he's getting on in years and he's passing the torch to the son of the current president, uh, Yoshida San who's gonna take over. And it's this moment of transition in the brewery too, from an older generation to a younger generation.

There are spoilers in sake movies.

Yes, believe it, or not.

Believe it or not, it does happen. It does happen.

Alright, so John, John, what are your impressions of the Birth of Sake?

Well, for me, the, the first thing that came to mind as a, I remember, I do remember like the first time I saw it and I was just like, this is beautiful. And it was just, it does such a great job of making you feel like you are, there and you are, you are in there, you know, brewing the sake with this crew and you really.

Hmm.

This is what used to be used. Don't tell anyone.

I mean there, there was a scene of three of the brewers over 70 plus kind of frolicking in the onsen bath, so,

Full frontal male nudity isn't also not what I would've expected in a sake movie.

So we've got, what kind of surprises do we have in store for us in the birth of sake? Number one? Spoilers. Number two, naked kurabito.

It is, it is a cultural difference though. It's not, it's not gratuitous or anything.

No, no, no.

And also like a great sense of community in the movie. That's also like the third thing that it hits very, very heavily. Cuz these people are stuck together for six months. They have to work together at like 5:00 AM until late in the night every day with probably like little breaks here and there. Uh, you, you probably don't even have enough time to like get out and do anything. Like you couldn't watch the Birth of Sake, like in a full sitting probably.

Yeah. And what about the cinematography? I mean, that just was, I think, one of the highlights of the movie.

yeah, the black and white shots particularly that they kind of interlay like how sake is made, uh, along with like the traditional journey, uh, throughout those six months. So it'll talk about like Koji and like have an artistic shot of the. Steam and the raking of the grains and the spores kind of drifting over things and all of that, is very, very beautiful shots. Um, makes me wish that I could go to a brewery just with my camera to, to take some pictures, uh, in that sort of environment.

Yeah, of the snow and the, and the rice and the bags and the the attire that they have to wear, when they're working, there's so much white that they go out, that they go in there and they really make that pop, so to speak, and make it really just look fantastic. It does. It's a, it's a beautiful film to look at. It's just really nice.

Well, I do have a little bit of feedback, or not criticism, but they're, they're having watched it a few times now. There, there are a couple things that I think could have been done a little differently.

Yes, that I. do agree with.

Yeah, I think if, if they wanted to give that sense of like, oh, we're in a cage here. We're isolated six months. I think they could have done that and then released them to their family and then showed them going back for the next year at the very end of the movie as they did. I think it would've had more impact if they sliced up the movie a little differently.

Yeah, but then the tasting of the sake would be like sort of at that two thirds mark. And that's kinda what you wanna say for the end. Like the, the, you know, the fruits of their labor, them drinking sake.

I understand where you're coming from, Tim, but my thought on it is really that where they choose to start that movie, um, with them, you know, washing the rice and steaming the rice, it, it is so well shot and it is. Engrossing that you are hooked and you're in for the rest of it. And I think that's why they chose it was like the most, it was the most impressive visually, um, part of the film.

I agree with that. I, I've read this on a review, so this isn't my original thought, but someone said like, give it 15 minutes and if you're not interested, and you probably won't be, but odds are in that first 15 minutes, it will have you interested in how sake is made.

Yeah, and I also think that it's probably also a decision of theirs to intercut those shots so that the, the viewer isn't, It doesn't feel like they're stuck in a brewery for six months necessarily.

Some of

understand that the, we understand that they are, but giving them the contrast of seeing them with their families, that they're being denied, I guess maybe was meant to be a little, give you a little bit of chance to breathe.

I do like your thought on that though, Timothy. I'd like to see a different cut on that. Just to see like if you do get that caged in sort of version, it'd be like if, if you've seen Memento, you know, like it's sort of inter spliced, like release a cut that's like that, just like completely sequential and see how it changes the, the feeling of the film. The Timothy cut will be released soon. I hope.

the Sullivan

Well, Ben, you know, you know, I'm a stickler for historical

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, I, I really liked this movie. I saw it in 2015 when it first came out and watched it again recently, as we said a couple days ago. And I appreciated it even more, and I think that the fact that they jumped around in time and jumped around in the process a little bit. Didn't bother me as much as it did the first time. But I think I was looking at it very much from a sake professional's point of view.

Yeah, no, I agree. but yeah, the first time I saw it was before I listened to Sake Revolution. So as far as the order, I didn't really think anything of it. Uh, and then this time I was like so engrossed with like the artistic shots of it, I. Wasn't really thinking about order, cuz it's like, yeah, yeah, I know there's koji, I know there's steaming. I know there's all this stuff and it looks so good that it's hard to argue.

Yeah. I think that anybody who's interested in how sake is made, uh, should definitely watch this film. I think that especially if you're, if you're a visual learner, it's like such a, like, you're, you're in there, you know, you're in the trenches. Uh, that's great.

should we talk about the big spoiler of all the spoilers of this movie? I

Uh, I mean, it's up to you. listeners at home. This is your last chance to hit pause.

How are you not hooked yet? How have you not turned this

know. Hit pause. Do that and then come on back.

Yeah, this was sort of like the big emphasis on community, how everyone's like sort of stuck in there because there is a death that happens later in the film and they're still so stuck to the brewery. Like they can't leave all this, these tanks alone for, um, for like even a couple hours that they couldn't even like attend a funeral. So that there is a big emotional gut punch at the end of this film.

Yeah, so there is a very shocking death of one of the younger brewers and it. Really throws you for a loop because you've come to learn everybody's names at this point and a little bit of their personality, and they show them interacting after hours and how they really are just all thrown together. And they have to live together.

I do think that that, emphasis that they have during the story about like how the, doing things in the old way and it's the only, they say it's the only way to like get, to make good sake, uh, and that we need to keep making good sake in this way or el sake is not gonna survive. They, they really they, they're living this, this idea. They're not just, this is not just a job

Well, it's their tradition as well. I mean, they have a, a tradition for this brewery that's been handed down specifically for them.

And one thing that I really love is at the very end, they show the what happens to each of the characters that's working there. And two of the six or seven brewers. Choose not to come back for work reasons. So we have one, one pass away, unfortunately. And then two say they choose other paths. And it's really the older brewers that have the commitment to really come back and continue the brewing season for, another year of hardship.

Yeah. And, there's a bit of foreshadowing at the very beginning where the, the old Toji is, is there and he's looking at, they show the camera showing all the young kurabito helping out and how they, they needed to bring in some extra help. And he's talking about how he's gotta figure out how he's going to train this young generation to do this cuz cuz they need to pick it up and they need to do it, et cetera, et cetera. And, At the end, he's kind of still there. You know, at the end.

Yeah, they sure make it seem like if you're not there like all the time and like everyone doesn't know what they're doing, like whole years ruined, like midway through, we screwed up one step of it. And this is a bad batch, sorry.

So, what do you guys know about the Tedorigawa brewery? It's in Ishikawa. Prefecture and I had the chance to visit there a couple times.

I had a feeling that was gonna be the case.

you thought I might name drop that, John, right?

Well, you know,

It's happened before.

yes. Yes. Once or twice.

Yeah. It's a smaller brewery, as you mentioned, about six or seven brewers and let's see when they work. They're, uh, 145 years old now. Almost a hun coming up to 150 years old

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I think they said the start of the Meiji restoration is when they,

yeah. Yeah. And, uh, we're actually gonna be tasting one of the sakes from Tedorigawa. That Ben picked out. So it's uh, one of the sakes you see prominently featured in this movie

It's the one they're making right? Like the Yamahai.

when the son yoshida San goes out to places in New York and around Japan and is basically selling his wares and the off season. This is the label that he's pouring is the one we're gonna taste today. So it's really special and super connected to this movie.

Yeah. This is kind of their flagship sake. Uh, definitely is like the one you, when you see Tedorigawa someplace, this is the sake you see.

I'm very excited to try it because I've always, I've seen this movie and every time I'm ordering sake, I'm like, oh, I should, I should get it. But then I always sort of forget, like I get lazy and I don't wanna look it up and, and that sort of thing. So this will be so exciting

So wait, so this, this will be your first time

for this particular, yeah.

Wow. Oh that's gonna be exciting. Oh, that's great. fantastic. And I think, uh, one more thing we should let the people at home know. By the way, guys, you can come back now., the spoilers are over. Uh, uh, we're actually gonna be, uh, trying this in two different ways. Oh my goodness. And we'll tell you what those ways are gonna be in just a moment. But first I'm gonna tell you the stats.

Well, we all have this beautiful Tedorigawa Junmai Yamahai, and we're gonna be serving it chilled and we're also gonna try it warmed up. And this was actually Ben's recommendation because it's a Yamahai style. So maybe we should just very briefly talk about what Yamahai is. Yamahai is one of the alternate. Fermentation starter methods, and it is something that was developed around the turn of the century and it allows lactic acid to develop naturally and.

It sounds like a plan to me.

I really love this label too, that it's got like sort of the old style of them making sake, like where they're all like using the old tubs and stuff. It kind of kind of echoes what they're doing in the movie.

Yeah.

Ben, that is such a great point. If you look at the label closely, and they've had this label for years, it's like a woodblock print, isn't it? And they're shirtless just like they were in the movie.

Wow. They are wearing underwear. This time though.

Yeah. Yes. Alright. So you have it in the glass.

I

All right. Let's give it a

Ben. All right.

Mm. smells delicious.

Yeah, I think this is what our friend of the show, Byron Stithem would call a pretty Yamahai

Yes.

is it does have a nice gentle aroma.

It does. Makes me wonder if my heating ideas is gonna work out. Cuz usually it's like those like kind

Well, we're gonna find out, hold that thought.

Yeah, so lovely., there's a very gentle rice aroma, bit of sweetness on the aroma., maybe a hint of yeast as well, but just really, very balanced and attractive aroma as well. Don't you think, Ben?

Yes, although you describe it much better than I do, uh, my, my sense of smell is not my, my best sense, taste is, is much, much better.

Right. Well,

I think that's a hint, Tim.

in honor of your sense of taste, let's give it a taste.

Wow. I would not have pegged that as a Yamahai, just like blind.

Hmm.

You know, Junmai definitely, but Yamahai not necessarily because it is again, pretty.

Yeah.

is. Yeah. Uh, I mean, it's not quite as like fruity or whatever as, as a lot of those other ones are. So it is being pulled back a little bit with, with the graininess. I guess. That's the Gokyakumangoku talking.

Yeah. Yeah. Gohyakumangoku is typically a rice from niigata. It's known for its ricey-ness, but it's restraint and I think that dials back some of the earthiness that you normally would expect from a Yamahai using that gohyakumangoku rice grain. Gives them a chance to bring out a bit of elegance in this Yamahai and it has a, John, I'm gonna use the word, it has a wisp. It has a wisp of earthiness.

a wisp of earthiness. Oh,

it has a wisp of earthiness, but it is really balanced and ricey in the right ways and they found an elegance to the Yamahai. I think that's really super enjoyable.

Hmm. Excellent. Well, now we got a little water to clean the palate before we dive into the warm version.

Guys, so what temperature have you warmed your Tedorigawa up to? Uh, I will. Let you know I use the sousvide method, so I put a sousvide stick into a pot of water, and I warmed mine up to 110 Fahrenheit. Ben, how about you?

I have less control over it. I've heard 105 is the magic number., and I have a sort of, sake warmer that has like a candle underneath it, and it tends to keep it at about that, that level. so I don't have the thermometer on me, but I, I usually trust it. It's, it's somewhere north of 100, less than 110.

Okay. And John, how about you?

according to the manual for my twin bird, it is atsukan level, uh, in which they are reading as, uh, 122.

Wow.

Okay.

Yeah. I can bring it down to Jo-kan.

There's no

I'm just gonna

now.

There's no going back. Yeah, exactly. It's gonna say funky if I go

Alright, let's pour it and give it a taste.

And that smell went away with the heat, but maybe it's the cup.

Oh, the aroma's very different.

Oh

Yeah, we can smell them side by side. Oh my gosh. Compared to what's in my. Little ceramic cup here. The wine glass is smelling fruity in comparison, and it didn't smell fruity

is

Yeah,

no, I get a lot of, uh, steamed rice, um, on the nose with the warmed version.

All right. Let's give it a taste. Oh

That is different.

It's good.

It is. Um, I, yeah, I take it back. I do prefer it warm. So my, my streak of preferring Yamahai is warm, is, is still unchanged. Uh, but yeah, I, this is what I love about sake is how it changes not just from bottle to bottle, but temperature to temperature. You can just have so much fun exploring it.

Oh my gosh. For me, when it, when it's warmed up, the, it feels like the rice is like dragged out to the front and like, this is what it's all about. In the warm state. It tastes so much more rice and rich. And normally for me, the texture becomes a little more velvety when it's warmed. But I feel like there's, there's uh, just a little bit of sharpness here when it's warmed, but the rice flavor really dominates for.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is powerfully Ricey. But the texture, you're, you're not wrong about that texture. it's, it's a bit of a change. It's so silky.

Yeah.

very smooth. Now.

Yeah, it's like rice and then silk and then sort of that like alcohol burn at the end. So there's like that fun journey that that it goes through, which is, which is a lot of fun.

Yeah. But can you imagine if you were like, Out in the middle of the ishikawa, winter brewing sake at midnight and you were freezing cold. This would be like the elixir of life, I think.

This would be, this would be a godsend in that scenario. but my, my apartment's actually kind of warm, so I think I was preferring, uh, cold out of the glass. But I think I'm in the minority in this group. Ben already weighed in. He thinks he likes it better. Warm. Tim, you're the tiebreaker.

Oh, just like on the Reels of Justice podcast,

Oh no.

I am gonna vote for the warm sake.

Yes. I knew you'd see things my way, Timothy.

Sorry, John. No, it's just, it's so special. It is cold out. So to have a warm sake, to have that super rich rice flavor is just has a little bit of sake magic tonight. So I couldn't resist.

Hey guys. Go back and taste it when it's cold now. It's so fruity.

It is, it almost tastes different than when you had it the first time. That is so odd.

It is so fruity now. Like I thought it was gonna kind of taste the same. I thought the aroma was gonna be a little different, but when I took that sip, I was like, wow, there's a whole nother, a whole nother world in the sake. After I have the warm sake, it kind of pairs in an interesting way.

Yeah.

This might be my new favorite, Yamahai. I haven't had it before. I like it. It it has, i I, I do like those, like Junmai ginjos and it sort of hits all of that sort of What's special about that and what's special about, um, about the heated sake.

It does tricks.

does tricks.

Yeah.

right. Well, Ben, I know you're a movie expert and you have this podcast related to movies. So for our listeners who are interested in sake featured in movies beyond the Birth of Sake, uh, what movies can you recommend for us to watch that feature sake in one way or another?

I just play a movie expert on radio, I'm afraid, but I do have three., there, one of my favorites is your name, which is an anime. it features some of the scenes about the old, old way of making sake. So Tedorigawa method, th there's a method out dates that, and that's where you would chew the rice up and spit it out into jugs. And that is featured in this movie. And I have to know, have you guys tried that?

No. Um, number one, no. And number two, I'm really glad that that's not how they went about making the sake for this movie, for, for birth of

It's like you wanna try your own, but nobody else's like that would be,

I've, I've talked about that method in my classes, but never practical application. That's No, no, no.

I have done it and it's interesting.

oh God.

Yes. Oh, I've not done it. May, Tim, maybe that's an episode idea. You and I will make, um, chewy sake, chewy, spit

Let's put a pin in that. Okay.

Second one, uh, is, uh, Ju-on the curse. Uh, if you've heard of the film, the Grudge, this is a film that that preceded it and it features a scene where someone uses sake as sort of a defining rod to see like how haunted a house might be or how susceptible a person might be to like supernatural influences, cuz the sake itself is very pure. So if you drink it and it. It tastes fine then, uh, either your place isn't haunted or you're not susceptible, so that's kind of a fun one to check out.

Is that a Japanese movie?

Yes, yeah, the original, Ju-on the Curse. Uh, you can find it on YouTube if you'd like. Um, and the last one, although it's only just one scene, but it, it just like strikes me as so weird, is the James Bond film. You only live twice where Bond insists on having his temperature served at 98.4 degrees as if it were 98.3. He could tell the difference.

I don't know, based on a lot of the other cultural things in that movie, I'm gonna say they weren't necessarily going accuracy

no, that's true. And slightly racist that film, but it does feature sake.

a, just a touch

there's a, there's a wee bit of cultural insensitivity in that movie

Tiny. It was a different era though.

That is my trilogy of fictional sake movies.

Wow. All right. So if we want to have our sake film fest, we have a, we have a lineup now. Thank you, Ben.

But the Birth of Sake, bump that to the, to the front of

Well bump that to the front. And, uh, and your name is also a phenomenal movie. It's a great, great film, even though they chew the sake and spit it into a

You're gonna try it someday. You know you are.

Okay. It's got, it's got the JP seal of approval. That's all I have to know. I'm on board.

Yeah. Nice., so, Ben, thank you so much for, uh, joining us for this little adventure today. This has been a hell of a lot of fun. Um, where can our listeners find you online?

We are the Reels of Justice Podcast, so we are probably your next door neighbor as far as wherever you find podcasts. We're probably sitting right there to the, to the left of you. so yeah, Spotify or, or iTunes or any of those places you, you

Great. All

All right. and we will be sure to list all the contact info for the Reels of Justice podcast in our show notes. So any listeners who are interested in learning more about Ben and his fantastic film podcast, please be sure to check out our show notes.

At the very least, listen to Timothy's episode. It's very

good. Exactly.

All right, Ben, thank you so much for joining us., it was really, really fun to have you on the podcast.

Oh, this was my pleasure. Thank you so much guys.

John, great to taste with you,

Always is.

lot to dig into in this episode. And I have this feeling there is another movie episode in our future, so let's, let's keep that in mind. Not only to John, but I want to thank our listeners as well for joining us each and every week, and a special hello and thank you to our patrons. If you would like to support Sake Revolution, you can join our community on Patreon. Visit patreon.com/SakeRevolution to learn more.

And did you know that you can also buy Sake Revolution T-shirts? Yes, that is right., over at SakeRevolution.com, we've got a little store that you can check out. shirts that we're trying to add, new ones on occasion, we've also got stickers. Stickers are a lot of fun. Everybody loves stickers., so stickers and t-shirts, and probably some more stuff to come.

And our show notes are available to you each and every week. You can learn more about all of our amazing guests. You can see the Birth of Sake, trailer, and you can also learn more about Ben's podcast. And there's also a transcript each and every week. So be sure to check out our show notes at SakeRevolution.com.

So without any further ado, please raise a glass., remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai.