LIVE! The American Craft Sake Festival 2023: Byron Stithem of Proper Sake Co

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. this is America's first sake podcast.. I'm your host, John Puma, from the Sake Notes. Also administrator over at the internet Sake Discord. And I also am in charge of Reddit's r slash sake community.

And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan. I'm a sake samurai. I'm a sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

Welcome back, Tim, to another week, another show.

Good to see you, John.

Likewise, likewise. Now, um, everything that has a beginning must have an end No, no, no. We're not, you guys are gonna calm down. We're not, not ending the show, but this is the, the finale of our series Wait a minute. We're actually ending a series.

We

We're a series. This is amazing. This is the finale of our series of episodes that we recorded at the American Craft Sake Festival in Charlottesville, Virginia.

You know, we had so many interviews from the American Craft Sake Festival, I thought we were going to finish the Prefecture series before we finish this series.

Yeah, I, it's just, it's a lot. Um, I think that like, the vibe of being there comes through a little bit. and it, it was a great opportunity for us to get, to get people we normally wouldn't be able to have on, on the show and do it in person.

That's true. I think that recording in person does have its own vibe and... It, it's a great, you know, I, I was thinking it's a great time capsule of that event. And who knows? 5, 10, 20 years, people will want to look back on that and say what was going on in American sake at that time. And so I think it's good that we recorded all those sessions. And I'm especially excited about today's interview that we did.

Yes. Yes. I want to say that, guest today is, is a, a frequent guest on our show, friend of the show, Uh, Byron Stithem them from Proper Sake.

Yes, or you could say repeat offender.

repeat offender. Okay. I mean, it depends how you feel about the episodes it's been on, I guess.

I think Byron's episodes are always a treat, and this was no exception.

Yeah. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Byron's first episode that he was ever on was in person also.

It was in person.

And it was that one time we tried recording in your apartment

Yes, we tried recording at the Sullivan Studios on the Upper West side

actually I think we were tried recording in the Sullivan living room specifically and it was good. It was nice. It was, that was the first time I actually, uh, got to meet him. And when we tasted his sake on the, on that episode, that was the first time I ever tasted his sake.

That was a true live react.

definitely was.

This was a great interview with Byron because we got basically the next chapter in his story, right?

Yeah, I feel like every time we have him on, we're seeing like a new phase in, in the development of Proper.

Yeah. There were a few highlights for me. First of all, we got the update on Rice Vice, which is the bar that he announced on our show last time he was on, and it was still under construction and gonna happen, and now it's like the coolest spot in Nashville.

It's definitely up there. And if I'm not mistaken, uh, has gotten some recognition, which I think is really cool.

Yes, it got Esquire's hottest new bar in the United States, something like that. Amazing.

I mean, I've never been in Esquire. I don't know about you. I wouldn't mind if somebody offered me, Hey, John, would you like to be an Esquire? I number one what the topic was and assuming wasn't at my, you know, some, some humor at my expense, I'd be right there for it. That sounds like it would be fun.

so, uh, Rice Vice, hottest new bar in the country, amazing,

And for the record, Timothy and I, despite our best efforts, and we say this every time Byron's on the show, which again, not that infrequently, we still haven't made it down there.

I know, but hashtag goals, right? That's coming We're gonna, we're gonna make it to

on the list. It's on the list.

Yeah, and but Byron also gave us an update on his brewing style and you know, he basically said he likes to make things hard for himself, so he loves Yamahai,

Yes. Because why, why do things easy? Yeah.

Well, this is the last of our episodes from the American Craft Sake Festival, John. So without further ado, maybe we should get right to it. What do you think?

Let's do it. Here we are. Take it away, Byron Stithem.

Alright, John we are reporting live again from the American Craft Sake Festival here in Charlottesville, Virginia.

USA

Yes,

and we are here for many episodes because it is a buzz with American sake brewers. And we could not leave today without having friend of the pod and wonderful U. S. sake brewer, Byron, with us again from Proper Sake.

Virginia. USA. Yeah, hi guys. So,

Hello. So we realized that we had actually had Brandon Doughan on three times So while you're here, we needed to make sure that we got you on here So you can also have been on our show three times tying the record and then you guys can fight to see who could be in a

Yeah, I, uh, I will take him to the mats on this one. Consider it done.

Yeah, so, um, I think the last time we spoke to you was during our hundredth episode and you were kind of getting geared up to open up a bar

Yeah, uh,

what happened with that?

any listeners that may have missed that episode, uh, go back and listen,

Yeah, number one, go back and listen. Uh, but number two, this is what's been happening

we, we have since opened a sake bar in Nashville, Tennessee, and we've been working real hard to trick people into drinking sake through hook or crook, any method necessary. So this bar is certainly a haven for sake is both of American and Japanese descent. We also do a bunch of different highballs, all, all very sake related. And then we also do a bunch of beers. A lot of them have koji in them. And it's been pretty well received, so. We actually just had our one year anniversary.

and the name of this bar is Rice Vice.

That's right. And if I'm not mistaken, it was, uh, divulged on this show.

yes.

We get a couple of firsts on this show every now and again. And I stand by my original statement that Rice Vice is a great friggin name. Uh, and I love that that's the name of the place. And do people comment on that? They come in like, this place has a great name.

I do get a lot of thanks for naming it that, uh. I might even like sake now, but the place, the name, it's wonderful.

There's a name. makes it.

now, but the name makes it happen. So, what

So, what is your reaction that you've gotten in your new location? You expanded your brewery, and you opened the tasting room. What has the reaction been, and what is your most popular sake that you're selling and making there now?

Yeah, it's been surprisingly well received. I always assume the worst on my end, of course. Um, but, we recently received the accolades of one of Esquire magazine's best new bars, or just best bars in America. Um,

That is amazing. Congratulations.

you so much. And another sake bar called Koji Club, which some of you may be familiar with, also made the list. So I attribute this to a ever growing tidal wave of sake bars, breweries, you name it. I think things are rising.

That's awesome. Yeah.

I would never have thought a sake bar would have made a list like that, let alone two of them. That's crazy.

right. It's mind boggling, but it goes to show you, sake is the best beverage, and people are starting to finally acknowledge that.

Yes. And of the sakes you have in your tap room, what style or which sake is the most popular with your customers right now in Nashville?

It's hard to say. If you look, if you look at the data, if you look at the numbers, and adjust for the fact that I try and sell diplomat pretty heavily, price wise, it's relatively even. You have some real Yamahai heads, you have some real ginjo ka heads. People are coming from all over the spectrum here, and I'm consistently surprised at how interested people are in kind of esoteric, atypical sakes.

lot of... Ha

and people love those too.

So

That said, we also sell your own brews, but you also sell imported sake, is that right?

Mm hmm.

Oh, wow. Now, we talked a lot about Yamahai on your last visit to our show. Are you still making exclusively Yamahai?

Primarily. Occasionally we'll do a brew test where we need to expedite the process, but pretty much everything is Yamahai or Kimoto. Majority Yamahai, but at this point it's become such a comfort zone for me from a production standpoint and obviously I'm more favorable to that style of sake but I find that trying to continue to move the envelope in that regard is is very interesting And I haven't reached the end of that that thread so I keep pulling

seems to

It's interesting because Yamahai is not an easy way to make sake, but you're saying it's your comfort zone. Can you talk a little about that?

He thrives on adversity.

He thrives on adversity!

Yeah. It's true. It's true. The harder and dumber it seems to be, that's kind of my world. That's where I live. Yamahai, yes, harder to make, but it's been so long since I've made true sokujo that I think I've kind of forgotten, honestly.

So if you were to try to go make Sokujo right now. you'd be like wait a minute, how does this go again?

What is it? What's that ingredient I put in here? that. What's the ingredient I in Where do I get it?

Nice, nice. And um, so when you changed like your, your, your facility situation, did that have an impact on the sake? Since you do like to play around with, with, you know, the more interesting side of the, of the yeast spectrum.

Yeah, it did. And fortunately in a good way. That certainly was a concern. The new facility is climate controlled and we keep very, very cold. So as much as we can mimic a Japanese winter, we can. And that's helped things in a very positive way. So it has really allowed me to bring that Yamahai style back into the ginjo spectrum. And cold press, cold ferment. Nothing in the process really goes over 10C typically.

oh wow

Oh wow

very cold.

So Today we are meeting you, as we mentioned, the open we are meeting you live here at the American Craft Sake Festival. Here in Charlottesville, Virginia, and I think congratulations are in order because you actually just stepped off the stage after winning an accolade. Can you tell us about what, what you won?

well it still blows my mind for two years in a row that the audience has chosen as their silver medal favorite a Yamahai sake as the audience choice. So again, second place, like, we're still the bridesmaid, but the fact that we're even on the stage is incredible,

A second year in a row, though,

second year in a row.

good. Consistency is important.

That's right.

that's just awesome... How do you feel about that? I'm, I'm so...

I'm so humbled and honored, for one, that we can do anything that people like, regardless of what it is, but the fact that people are drinking Yamahai sake, and considering it to be as good as all these other beautiful beverages that are here today, blows my mind.

Yeah, I think we've talked in the past about how, like, very few domestic breweries are making Yamahai sake, and even fewer, I don't even know if there are any others, that are exclusively going with Yamahai and Kimoto, so, you know, that kind of puts you in a class by yourself. It's a, it's a, you know, how does it feel to be like, well, you know, I'm the one doing this?

It's an island. It's a lonely island, and it doesn't make any sense, but here we are.

So, you in a you live on Yamahai Island.

That's right. We got this thing that nobody already understands, and it's like, well, what if we made it even harder to understand?. Well, let's do that.

Your So being here among all your fellow U.S sake brewers How has that experience been for you? could you talk to us a little bit about the community and what that means to you? Is it important? What's changed?

um, it's always such a beautiful family reunion. We don't get to see these people every day. And although I communicate with many of them. Weekly, if not more, being in person with them to share our wares and talk about the nonsense we've been dealing with lately. It's really, really beautiful and there's so many wonderful people here.

So in addition to... this is kind of like a two level event. then because you've got all the consumers that come and they want to taste all of this North American Sake from all over the country but also for the brewers it is a chance to kind of pow-wow a little bit.

Yeah, there's absolutely that component, too, where we are trying to figure out and refine what it is we're offering, what we're doing, how we can continue to grow the industry as a whole, and certainly being a part of the association is a huge portion of that as well.

To the

Yeah, and you're referring to the Sake Brewer's Association of North America.

that's an important...

Thank you.

Thank you, that's a good highlight

Yeah, and,

Not just any association.

this event. They've been coming since the beginning, is that

they're one of the sponsors and organizers of, of this event. Yeah. And you've been coming since the beginning, is that right?

Yeah,

yeah. How has it changed over the years that this craft sake festival has been happening?

Honestly, it continues to grow in pretty astounding ways. This year actually felt like a real festival. In previous years it felt like us just getting together to drink, really. But this year there were incredible sponsors. We have a live podcast being recorded.

Yeah i heard about that.

Yeah, I don't know if you guys have heard about this, it's incredible

once twice...

And And like, real vendors, all sorts of content and entertainment, and just some real camaraderie that has excelled past years beyond.

That's awesome. And I, and I, it, the reactions we heard from people today are an indication. This is just going to continue to get bigger. That's that's, that's, and I think that's everybody's goal. It's in everybody's best interest.

Yeah, well, that's part of the reason that John and I wanted to come out and be here is because the networking, meeting people face to face, uh, it's fine to talk to someone on Zoom, but when you can meet them face to face, taste their sake, get a pour from a particular person that put their heart and soul into that sake, it's really, really special to meet in person. And I think in the post COVID world, uh, that's becoming more and more appreciated.

Absolutely. And, uh, and it's, we don't get out much, Tim.

Absolutely,

we, we record our podcasts on zoom every day and we live in the same city. So for us to like get everything, grab all the gear, come down, get on a flight, come down to, uh, to Charlottesville and, uh, and sit down here at this table and, and have people on, it's a lot. But it's been great.

It's worse in every way Yeah.

as being able to and also you can have drinks together, which is great. Yeah

want to ask you about another change that's happened in your sake life, and that is you've done a rebranding. of your bottles and your logo. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey? Like what went into rebranding? Because you have, we'll put the photos of your bottles in our show notes. We want everyone to go to SakeRevolution.Com and check out the bottles of Byron's sake. But they're very eye catching and very different. So tell us a little bit about your journey to rebrand your sake.

Yes Yeah, so we've been working with a designer who lives in Japan And that, in its own right, is a total challenge, which, as you may have learned by now, we do things only the most difficult way possible. Um, it's turned out really well, we really love him, and the amount of time that went into this is, is, is substantial, and every step of the process has been rewarding, but we really put a lot of thought into it. That said, we finally finished the labels a few weeks ago and got them printed.

down. I can't, I can't unsee it now. Thank you.

Ha ha ha

you have one very popular sake in your portfolio called the Diplomat. Which is, uh, Yamahai, as is your signature style. And this has, like, a hotel lobby? 1970s, kind of baroque hotel lobby.

Believe it or not, this hotel was called The Diplomat.

Oh, there we go!

And it's from Washington, D. C. in the 70s. This hotel no longer exists, but it felt very appropriate for what we were doing. As we call back on previous times of sake production, we also call back on some previous existing hotels, apparently.

evidently, yes, yes,

And I think I saw a cat on your other label. Tell us about that.

Well, we happen to love cats around our neck of the woods, but specifically, I thought the double entendre of soft power and angry kittens

but, specifically, I thought the double entendre

very on point. It may be a little on the nose, but couldn't help it.

Nice. I love it. And so on here, we've got the diplomat is a masterclass in rice based diplomacy and fermentation tradecraft. And I love this quote so much.

that quote may have been written after several glasses of sake

As most, as most good quotes are.

that's right, that's right. No AI generation involved at all...

well John, you and I should pay a visit to Yamahai island

To Yamahai Island

It's lonely here.

Oh, no. Oh no. Oh, we gotta, we gotta get over there. Uh, so yeah, so I, so if I'm not mistaken, and please refresh my memory if I am, we did feature the diplomat on your previous visit to the show, but obviously it was a number one, it was produced in the previous facility. And number two, that was a long time ago.

a long time ago.

feels like a long time ago at

And, and last time it was only a once silver award winning and now it's twice silver award winning

Double silver award winning

oh my goodness.

We also, in that, that time frame, I can't remember if this had happened before or not, but we won best in show and double gold at the New York Wine and Spirits competition with this sake, so.

Nice.

Apparently, it is relatively well received, which still blows my mind. But, again, Yamahai Island is lonely. Everybody's welcome.

Despite your best efforts, this is well received. I love that. And this is great. So yeah, we're pouring that in the glass right now. The Diplomat. With this brand new label that shows the hotel, The Diplomat.

not precisely

That is now closed.

That is no longer in existence, but apparently in the 1970s it was a thing.

But 1970. Yeah, hopefully this is not a sign of things to come, but...

Now, can you give us some of the stats for this? Like, which rice are you using? How much is it milled? What the alcohol level is?

Yes, so this has changed slightly since we were last here, but it's a 55% mill rate. Still Isbell Farms, but we're using Titan Rice on this one. This is a nama. It is a plus two S M V. It is also a number seven yeast, and it is of course the Yamahai. Yeah.

alright Tim, let's give it some nose

as we do, let's give it a smell. Mmm. There's quite a bit of fruitiness on the nose. Yeah.

little bit. I, I, I get a lot of Yamahai personally.

There's a lot of Yamahai. You're both right, but I feel like the type of fruit that I get to is very overripe tropical fruit in a way that kind of blends in with with Yamahai.

I could see that.

the Yeah. Now, when you say, John, you smell Yamahai, what do you mean?

There's that earthiness that we associate often with Yamahai. and I bring it up to my nose and immediately I'm like, ah, yes, this is, this is definitely that Rich earthy yamahai. It's like it's an identifier for me.

you it. No, you were supposed to say Yamahai. You know it when you smell it.

That is also true. I thought I was being challenged. but I do know it when I smell it. and I do, and this is yamahai

yeah. So there is, there is that backbone of, of earthiness. And, I get fruit layered on top of that and I like the, I like that you said overripe fruit. Cause it, it, it has a little bit of that depth to it. That, there's not that brightness of, of like fresh tropical fruit. It's a little bit more matured smelling, right?

Yeah. Exactly. I think a lot about like overripe mango and papaya and some things that are, they're not necessarily what you think of when you're thinking of fruit, but,

Right. Exactly.

I think also too, you know, This sake has been coming up to relative room temperature all day, so this is the most honest portrayal of it at this time, so I typically find that the colder it gets, the sharper the nose gets as well with this

I see.

and what temperatures do you recommend pouring this at? Like I've got a bottle of this at home. what is the optimum way to have this. the brewer intent

I love, I love a very cold sake sometimes, and maybe that's because I think this one showcases in a more elegant way at a cold temperature. That said, if you like... More flavor forward sakes. Let it, let it keep going. Let the temperature come up. Put some heat on it if you want to, but

Yeah.

So let's, let's, let's have a sip.

I was just going to say, if I'm not mistaken, we've just been smelling this whole time.

I know. Well, you know, I got sidetracked.

that's not what Yamahais about

a long day, everybody.

okay.

Mm hmm. It is that, it, you know, remember that, that comment about the Yamahai. This is, you know, to me, it's, it's a very, as we've said in the past on the show, pretty Yamahai. But it is that, it has that, that textbook flavor there. It is, that profile is right where you expect it to be. And, you know, for, for Yamahailovers, this is going to be a, a fantastic sake to sip on I think.

Yes, and it has complexity. It has depth of flavor. And I think that's something that appeals to all those voters that gave you the silver medal.

Is that...

Is that

Complexity is big with the voters, huh? Okay.

It is rewarding to know that there's a population out there that thinks that interesting, complex beverages are okay, so I might doing it.

and it seems like a very food, I'm sure we said this last time, a very food friendly style of sake as well.

I think so, and having a background in the culinary world, that's always been first and foremost for us.

yeah.

Just getting people to drink sake with every food and beverage combo that they can think of.

now at Rice Vice, what foods are you serving in your tap room with this particular diplomat sake?

doing That's also a timely question because we've been doing a lot of interesting pop ups. We've had pop ups with cuisine from all over the world, for sure. A lot of pizza, a lot of American stuff as well, but... We are about to launch a new food program where we're working with a local chef who's very driven by koji fermentations and use of sake by product and all the interesting things that kind of tie this whole project together.

That's awesome. So I know we said last time you were on the show that we have to come down to Rice Vice and see you in person. And now I'm going to, I'm going to make that same promise right now and

I'm going to hold you guys to it this time

I'm going to double

enough's enough.

I think one last thing on the food pairing question is, so with the diplomat, what is your dream food pairing?

I think anything that's grilled is really really wonderful with Yamahai sake. And specifically with this one, it can be a lighter grilled dish, perhaps vegetables, but anything that has that Maillard reaction,

okay.

that caramelization, I think pairs famously with this. We do have a large yakitori grill at the shop, and we get people who don't normally cook on those to come and do it all the time, and I think that's really fun.

Yeah.

That sounds great.

Now, we've talked about this sake chilled and room temperature. How is this when it's warmed up?

I think it's very good, and I'm not just saying that, but it's part of the reason that I'm so drawn to this as a style of sake is, I think it's relatively indestructible, as our friend Philip Harper might say, and I think it's really versatile across the spectrum of temperatures, and it's really interesting because I think there's something for everyone in there. And again, when it's super chilled, I think it's very crisp.

I love that kind of versatility in a sake

Yeah, that's a real selling point for sake in Japan. And I think as more and more people get into sake in the U. S., they're going to appreciate that variation in temperature

appreciate that yeah.

truly.

It's going to take some time, but I think it's going to get there. I think.

It's been so great to have you on the show. For those listeners who have not listened to your previous episode yet, can you please let us know how people can get in touch with you and learn more about your sakes?

Yeah, so I manage the Instagram, and if you find us on there, that goes directly to me. Otherwise, it's [email protected]. We have... Since last podcast launched our direct to consumer platform, so people can go to our website and order directly to 45 states.

oh that's great

Yeah, I think we have four different sakes on offer right now

Well, thank you so much for joining us. It was great to have you back as a repeat guest, as a repeat master brewer. And it's just so lovely to talk with you about sake again.

Likewise, the pleasure's all on this side of the table, and keep doing what you're doing. We really appreciate you guys.

Thank you

Thank you so much. Thanks for being here.

All right. And here we are. We're back, Tim. I thought it was fun. I had a good time.

I had a great time. And like I said before, it was so good to get this update from Byron, who is such a cool, nice guy. And to get the update on his sake, to taste the Diplomat with him, and also to get an update on Rice Vice, the coolest bar in Nashville. So, all super duper exciting. And I do want to take a moment before we sign off here, John, and thank Byron Stithem again so much for taking the time to come on the show, give us an update, So we're just really happy to have him on again.

Here's to next year. I have to say, I have to say just like independent of everything else that, that you had just said, I just had a great time. Like it was so fun just being there. It was just fun.

good, good, I did too. Okay, so have to, we have to plan our next, uh, Field trip.

yes we do. we do. And try to figure out how we're gonna stop in Nashville while we're in the neighborhood,

All right. Well, thank you, John, for a great series from the American Craft Sake Festival. And I want to thank our listeners as well. Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed this series and we hope you're enjoying Sake Revolution. If you'd like to show your support for our podcast, the best way to support us is to join us as a patron, visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolution to learn more.

And if you wanna know a little bit more about, uh, Timothy and I, um, we're out there on social media, I am at @JohnPumaNYC on a few platforms is also @TheSakeNotes, which is something that is just John and Myshell's sake adventures. and Timothy, where can people find you?

I'm at @UrbanSake, pretty much everywhere, and the main website to reach me is UrbanSake.com.

you got an early with that one. UrbanSake.com is a good URL. It's a

Oh, I'm glad you think so. If it's, if it's JP approved, I'm happy.

It's a little, little nerd in me is like, Ooh, that's a good URL.

Right.

Anyway, uh, on that note, please grab a glass. Sounds like we can use one.

Yep.

remember to keep drinking sake and

Kanpai!!