The p second actually broke me second back in 19 80, this place was actually Lin on the main drag. The first it was kind of soy sauce Miso. To the point where you actually changed my life. New Year's day 19 89. Not just Sa as a beverage for all the culture in history.
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Sa, The world's podcast are dedicated to expanding the dialogue surrounding Japan's iconic beverages, I am, of course talking about Sa, S chew and Our would And we are recording at the Japan Sake and S information center. I know we've been recording online quite a bit recently, but Here we are in person at the center. In the heart of Tokyo. And as always, this show is made possible with the support of the Japan, Sake and S you maker association.
My name is Chris Hughes. I am 1 of your regular hosts on the show. And today, we're going to be exploring a very, very exciting topic indeed, ty cuisine and Sake. So a lot of events are now taking place in Tokyo is pretty much back to normal. The calendar is pretty c full of various different events. And Cindy and I we actually attended a a really, really interesting and fun event in the center of Tokyo last night. The event that we attended was a celebration of Ty cuisine and Sa.
It was it's a place at a restaurant called Champ in Shi in Tokyo, a lovely restaurant, serving thai cuisine. And basically, it was... There was some food. There was some sake, and there was various explanation. Actually, there was also actually, the, wife of a, very famous, Sake Brewer, need a Hong k. And she was there as well. It was a really fun then, and it was a great opportunity to really find out you know, how well Ty cuisine goes Sake find out more about it as a genre.
And it gives me great pleasure to introduce the organizers, the hosts of that event, and today's special guests. I have with me, you, and I have Pam. Hello. Thank you very much to you both for joining us on the show. Hi. Thank you so much for inviting us. Pleasure is all ours, and you basically come all the way from Thailand. Right? Yes. Yes. You're not based in in Japan normally. Are you? No. So you... You're your
Japanese. Right? You born in Japan. Yeah. But you've been spending a lot of time living in Thailand? It's become your second home, would it be fair to say that? Right. After, like, I've been living there for for and half years. Okay. And now I'm moved the base 2 berlin. Oh, interesting. Okay. Sure I didn't do my homework with that. You're in Berlin or interesting? Okay. Well, why don't we start? Maybe just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, and kind of what you're involvement with
Sake. It's. Yep. So I'm you Na, and my career starts with ke chef. And also, I was a food editor. And I traveled around the world to correct the Grandma's recipes. Maybe I can introduce it later. And I met my husband and, par heart, and we c founded it, sa seeker. And here we are now. Yeah. That's right. So the company that was, hosting last night's event is your company, which is called Sake Si. And it's it's got an amazing logo, which is kind of like a a talk with a with an eye. Yeah. In
the middle. I wanna to ask you more about that later on. But it's very eye catching. And then what what about yourself? Hi. My name is Nat, Sea rat. But tiny very long. So you can call me Pam. My background is actually from finance. I was in finance for almost 10 years. And also, now an entrepreneur, and right now, yeah, doing Sa with you. So it's a... This this is the partnership. Okay. So may maybe I'll start by asking, how did you do meet each other?
Actually, our husband's, mineral and pat made together first, and they want to do something together and they want to make business together. And after that, we join and we became partner like 4 of us. Like, it was more friendship more than the business. But once we were trying sa in Japan and pom really liked it. And we stopped drinking and hot are serving pools. So watches start drinking and husbands cooking, so that's how we work.
So maybe he already answered this question in par, but what brought you both into the world of Sake? I I'm was there 1 particular you eureka moment that you can remember a little bit of a surprise experience. Tell was more. Yeah Yeah. I'll take this 1. Okay. Actually, like, you mentioned, our husband, were trying to talk and doing business together for a long time. But until we joined, and then we kind of travel together to to Japan, me and my husband, we came to Japan just for a short
visit, and we were thinking of, yeah. We should do some, business together. And then, they took us, so men room you took us to this Italian restaurant na. It's in Kyoto near na. And we were there and we were having this pairing mule, and they pair Italian food with wine and that was this 1 label of Sa. And then I tasted it, and I was like, this is really good. This is nothing like what I've tasted before and
right then and there, we discuss Yeah. Maybe we should do this because, you know, III like to drink. She likes to drink. We bonded it over drinking. Right. And then yeah. At that moment, we were thinking, yeah This is really good and and so I I asked her, you know, maybe we should try and input this. And luckily, she has also some connection, and, you know, we we approach the brewery, casa no Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. That was actually our, first brewery who actually gave us the opportunity.
So have to really thank you, She'll be sound for that. He's a wonderful wonderful wonderful supporter, Right. He's Sa in general, Buddha, and he's very kind of warm and welcoming and so actually, you... The Sake were... You had Casa mori at the event last night as well. Right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So If I'm understand this correctly, you basically fell in love with Sa and decided to start a venture together pretty much at the same
time. And, you know, we often say it's part of sac culture that it kind of it it helps bring people together. It's it's sort of like the tissue that connects people together or it's, you know, it has this kind of mysterious power to create bonds between people So it's really kind of, you know, cool to hear that. Thailand is not a name that comes up so often when we discuss second markets. But I do know that thai food and Sake goes really well together. I'm a massive
fan of, Ty green Curry. I know it's the most is the most, you know, obvious thing to to say there's a lot more to ty cuisine than just Ty green, Curry. But it does go really well with Sake, especially when actually it's quite difficult to pair it with a lot of wine I find. So at the event, last night, there was actually there was various different dishes of varying kind of like degrees of spiciness and things. So I mean, the sake and the food went really well together.
So obviously, thai food and Sake go really well together. But I think Thailand is a bit of a dark horse when it comes to, sort of, like, the the the overall global Sa industry? Mh. So tell me more about the Sake market in Thailand. Is it a fast growing 1 what potential challenges do you still have to overcome do you think? Actually, I wouldn't say it's a fast growing. It it took us at 7 years, to get to this point. The Moment in 2016.
Sure. Yeah. And that got us here today, not a lot of people understand, Sa, Mh first started. You know? And even some people who are actually drinking Sa already, they only drink... They only drink out or think of the name that they already know that it existed from a long time ago. So it took us quite some time to educate the market. And, for us, we're are we are trying to
introduce K sa. So the brands that we have I would say it's not the traditional type of mainly, not not mainly the traditional type of ta. So there is a lot of work to it. From the transportation where, you know, we are the first people, the first company in Thailand who did, the chain, minus 5 logistics. So we did that from the Sag brewery door to our customers door. It's all cold chain. And that that was 1 of the main challenge that we had to do.
And then after that, you know, once we deliver it, to our client, our customer who has to sell it to their client. Another challenge is their storage. Where, you, if they were going to keep it a long time, they would have to have, like a very low temperature refrigerator. Which also, we actually provide oh for some of main partner. We kind of, like, do this collaboration? Yeah. Yeah. So so we we provide the the... Is it Is it like a fridge maker in in Thailand or Yes. Okay.
It it has to be because on, the the temperature is quite unique. Sure. It's not... You cannot just use the regular re... Freezer. No where it's minus 17 No. Right? You need, like, that range of, like, just below 0. Yeah. Yeah. So we had to had that, a meet. To to be clear, the bottles will break if you freeze. If you freeze the sake, will eventually, the glass will shatter. Right. So Wow. You provide fridge for the for some of the... Not all of them. Right?
So some Obviously, there'll be certain conditions, but but that's really. I'm I'm not think I've ever heard of that. Actually before. That's quite quite unique prospect proposal. What are the challenges? Did you go? You say people like people had an incorrect understanding about what Sa was? So what what did people generally think Sa was? What are the sort of misconceptions like you would come across? So entire culture. There is this white spirit, which is also made from rice.
Okay. And, back then before we do this, a lot of people's still have that, mentality that Sa is actually a spirit. Yes. Similar to S you the White spirit that we had in Thailand. And and the sake that was there before. Some of them are actually the ones that are a little bit harder harder to understand. Mh. So that's What? So you join about K
sake. I just wanna, like, clarify what do you mean by K sake because there is actually a a category called K Sake now, which is basically Sa, which is not what we call in the West, Sa what they call here what what we call here in Japan hon or Say, basically, the brewers don't have a license to make that, so they basically infuse other ingredient? Are you talking about that? Or is it just sort of K is in kind of small boutique breweries making quite... Is that what you mean by K sa.
Interesting. So that was kind of the first kind of import into into Thailand, because it's quite easy to import, I guess, Right? They're less fragile perhaps. I mean, form for us it's more difficult. But actually what we think we want to introduce to true Actually. Did you do any kind of market research to come to that decision or or is it just kind of... That's what we like? That's what we'd like to push? Or is it like, no No. We think, you know, people in Thailand were really fall in love
with this? How did it kind of come about? Yeah. Well, actually, like, first came from, like, she really likes Casa. So that I can see the market in here. Yeah. Right now. Yeah. But and after that, because as many of Japanese do, but for me as well like Sake was for elder people. Mh. Old man Yeah. That kind of, yeah perspective, I had. Mh But after that, we start drinking with them, And I also discovered the Sa possibility. Yeah. In it. And after that, so, like, after we talk to C on and after
so, okay. Then if we're gonna do sake to Thailand, then if we can, show same kind of variety of taste, then that would be confusing to the market. Sure. Because it's quite people thinks this is pretty similar. Yeah. So because we have most of us has food background. So with using that, we actually pointed out, like, okay. We have this type of taste, so we need opposite type of paste, and this type paste. So to
show, like, a variety to... They can see easily, okay, this too this is quite different. But, after that, we found out that is the regional taste. So that is our main reason that we want to preserve regional taste, but this reflects into a lot into the sake taste. Mh. So we want to show like not only the bottles, but behind the stories as well. Like, okay. This taste is really showing na taste or this is right. Because I can see that with your grandma's project as well.
Right? Yeah. I mean, I was gonna ask, like, how do you pick these grandma's? How do you find these grandma's? Do you have a particular... So I guess it's all about showcasing the regional? Right. That these grandma kind of, basically sort of foster the word, like convey, not convey but also communicate in a way through their creations. Right? Through there through their cooking. They're cooking is obviously using particular regional techniques or regional ingredients.
Do you have a particular region in mind before you go out looking for these dramas Or is it just people that you've met on your travels, and is it the same with Sa when you're when it comes to selecting the breweries? Yeah. It's quite similar. Like, when I started ground mods recipes. So I start hunting scrum, like over... I thought you were gonna say that somehow. So how are she gonna put it? How you gonna put it? Hunting grandma. Okay? And so I just travel around because I didn't
have home at the time. Right? You can say homeless And No. No mat. Right? Yeah. No mind. We can... And only, like, 1 carry bag with me and we can say minimalist. Yeah. But, at that moment with my 1 carry back and just going to, really regional area into, like, really, small towns. Yeah. Because, like, deep in the mountain, we have more creativity there. Sure. Because it's... They had to create to eat something. It's a necessity. Right? Yeah. And that that was really
unique to me. Mh. I've never seen this kind of food before and something that I cannot taste in other cities. So I was so bored after I travel along around the world because the all the city seems quite similar now. Mh. And all the big names and all the big brands and all taste gonna be quite similar. Mh. Like, they all likes little bit sweeter side of paste or something like that. So... But, when I go to Grandma's places, what they cook. It's what I've never taste. Before.
So that was really unique, and I really went into this, research and I start researching grandmother's mothers and then I found out their recipe is really connected to the environment. Where they are living. Right. So that is really similar to the sake market, but the when I start recording their recipes, I found out this is gonna be losing. And it's not gonna be, surviving. Right. So because, like, they don't have person to take care or, like, person to
because They don't see this recipe. It's so important. For them, it's so normal, but the... That's why they don't write it and nobody takes over. But Sa instead. So Sa is, like, they do same thing. They reflects a lot that regional taste. Mh. But that they are doing it for 400 years so, like, long time to pass it down to the generations. So this is the 1 I really wanted to do. I can... Okay. I buy sake from them. That means they really take care of the landscape.
Like rice fields and you need to get water That is from mountain. So you need to take care of mountains now. Yep. And all the resources around them. They are taking care. By making sake. Mh. So those kind of breweries, we are naming them cross brewery. I see. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think that's correct. You know, a label to to give them. We... We used to call them at craft Breweries right. Until this new kind of definitely crap wave came along. Yeah. That's because that
is what craft means, essentially. Right. It is their craft. Right? So I wondered like, how easy is it to persuade these... I imagine they're quite modest. Right? It's in Japanese culture to an extent to be quite modest. Right? And I imagine they probably a little bit confused as well. Like, why are you so interested in in what we're doing lately? They've never had this attention
before. So how how difficult Was it a challenge to get these grandma to sort of come on board and share their recipes and especially being in video swap? Because you have a Youtube series. Right? Will you actually film These grandma at work. Mh. How difficult was it to kind of persuade them to... Did you... Was any persuasion required? Or was it... You know, were they just sort of was it? They didn't think too much about it. It was kind of almost like a natural
thing. Mh. Like, for me, it was really combination of my cooking skill and editing hill. Mh. And I went to local places and meet the grandmother's. I usually telling everyone, Like, do you know any, like, over 80 years old rock and creative dramas? And that was a keyword for me to find out scrum. I in because I was t around. So I talked to them, and okay. I find out Okay. This person, I really want to know. Then I start talking with her and at the end, she will ask me, Like,
where do you say? And I said, I don't have a anywhere to stay now. So she will let me stay. Oh, wow. And then I start getting close with her. Yeah. And then, like, start do conversation like, loving story of her or something like, So it's a trust trust is very important. Right? Building that connection and trust, which is which is also I think really important when you're trying to kinda build a connection with the Sake brewer.
Right. For the first time. First, they can be... I think, you know, just as an industry, At first, it could be a little bit closed, You know, sort of if you don't, if you've not already exchanged cards with the Sa brewer before, they can be a little bit reluctant. To sort of have you come into the brewery, for example, or even kind of to have that first dialogue about doing, you know, projects together or whatever you need to build that
relationship, build that trust at first. How did building these relationships with these grandma? How does it differ with building the relationships with the brewers? Parts of all, like, most of the breweries male. So I it'll just say, like, okay. Can I stay over him over now? That is, like big difference. Yeah. But it's kind of same. Like, what I really see is the pace really reflects their character too. Yes. So If I really like them. I... That means I really like their
taste too. Yeah. So that is most most of the time happens to us. So if we go there and start talking to them, I really like their pace, then that means like, I think we can get along with because I our... Like, where we look at is quite same direction. So, like, we always talk about the future, what we wanna do in the future, and they also talk about their future or the sake future. So we want to discuss not only this moment, but we want to do, like something together.
So it's more now became more close with them no? So first, it perhaps you were it took a little bit of time. Right? To kind of build this close relationship But first is a little bit distant. And then over time it kind of gone got closer. I think like 1 common thread that runs through all your projects maybe I'm mistaken, but this is kind of what I noticed. It seems to be all about people. I think on 1 of your, 1 of
your websites I was looking at. You sort of have this blurb where you basically say, like, it's all about this, how do you phrase it? A to kitty oe, which is kind of like, only possible when you have certain people making crafting the food or crafting the... I I assume it will be the same for Sake. Right? Have you kind of integrated that in you because Sa can be a bit modest as well? You know, they often say, like, oh, no. It's not as that make the. The microbes, You know, That's that's 1 line
that they often use. How how have you kind of worked with that? Are you... Is it the same kind of you're still trying to put the focus on the brewers in particular? Or is it something a little bit different? How do you work that into your marketing? That is my personal side. Mh. Like, with the company, I'm not sure, like, each of us has a different, maybe side. But mh my personal side it's really, really connected from what I've done as well. So, like, I always like
producers. So I go to producers because when I cook food, I noticed there is some certain ingredients that really has power. Yeah. So I really wondered, like, who makes it? Like, how come this became so different. Mh. So I visited them all the time, and I noticed, this is the way of living for them. So that is what I found out. And after that, I really admire and I really, liking that. So with my editing skill. I really want to show everyone that this is really
gorgeous your thing. And you are eating as normal or as usual, but this is, like, unusual thing. Mh. So I really wanted to focusing on that. They might say, like, this is micro or Yeah. That is true. But that that is true as grandma too. So really? Yeah. The grandmothers, they never said I'm a great cook. Oh, okay. But the I find, like, they're are really good cook. Yeah. So that is kind of same what. So who do... Who do did if brewers say that the microbes are other ones that do
all the work? What did grandma saying? Grandma said just like they're doing what they need to do. Okay. So it's more a necessity. Right. I'm not doing anything special here. Right. I'm just trying to... You know, this is the way that we survive in this part of Japan. Right. There there's something about the terrain. Right? That makes it difficult to sort of produce quite delicious creations. You really need to have the skills to do that? They're ain't
quite Right. You know, maybe it's the climate or maybe it's the conditions of wherever they are weather or whatever. And maybe time to Yeah. Like, it takes a lot of time that they focusing on. Mh. But that they think this is normal more but. It it is time. So this is same as brewery too, like, they cannot make just today. Yeah Right? But their time is so precious and this, with time, they can make it like, really
wonderful things... Yeah. That was... And in a way perhaps, 1 difference between Sake brewers and and grandma, which we Sounds like a funny thing to say that. The these these, you know, old ladies are all men who have these skills and I'm creating this wonderful food. To put it in a different way. 1 difference I think maybe is that Brewers actually don't really have the luxury of time when they're crafting their creations. Mh. Right? They're against quite AAA
strict schedule. Right. They've got to... They're they're working more towards a consumer. Right? That's 1 quite a big difference? Yeah. True. So how kinda how have you kind of worked with that? So this is the thing that we can do for the future, actually. So the grandma thing is really precious in a cultural side. Mh. But because this is not packaged wholesale. And they are not making it wholesale.
So there is no way that we can get involved So only the things I could do was, like, making video after it or making, like, I write a story of them. Yeah. That was the most I could do. But for the sake everywhere. Mh. I can sell for them too. Sure. And I can talk about them with actual their thing. That is really strong that they can drink and listen to the story. Yeah. That it's direct way to communicate to the customers. And I can talk on behalf of them
to the thai people. So that is, like, most different thing And and how... And so going back to Pam? Have you visited any other Sa markets like the Us or you have? Yes. So how would you say the thai second market compares with say? Should we say the Us. For example? I'd say for tie, like, like, I mentioned, it's still a little bit behind the Us. In in such a way that, you know, we still need, a lot more education in the market. We need more
manpower. We need more professional in the market as well. This this come up to actually something, maybe I could mention later that, you know, we we're are also trying to provide to to to provide the Sake professional. To the market. Because that is, you know, I see that a lot of times when we sell it to the customer, we know directly the story of the producer. Right? We we want to expand that. But the limitation is that the people who are actually
directly facing the end consumer. They don't know that. So so what we're trying to do is we do 2 things we... Actually, every year, we bring the our clock customer to the Sag brewery. Oh, and it's... Okay. Again, some. Some... Yeah. Some some some... You you've gotta draw, you you can't, you know, that maybe maybe eventually, everyone will get. Go. But yeah. At first, you've got a sort of select. Right. Certain people to go. Right? Yep. Yep. So we want them to be
able to communicate to the end consumer. Right? What the wonderful story of our, brewer. And we are also doing a Sake education course. So Right. We are partnering with Ssa sa as a association. We're opening courses in Thailand. To actually provide, more professional in the market. So they could be the 1 representing or telling the story of,
the wonderful second makers. Yeah. Because, of course, there's only so much you can do to communicate how amazing Exactly is, you know, you it can't become your your full time job. You never get an ending game else done.
So you've got to train the foot soldiers as you were So you actually, the ones who are going to be serving the Sake in the restaurants, maybe it's wine smelling or, you know, maybe it's just restaurant staff, in future staff, whatever, or people who are doing events privately in their communities. So, obviously, it's very important to have that education. Because as you were saying earlier and it's something that we hear in around the world in all sa markets.
Unfortunately with Sake, it tends to be that most people have a kind of a sort of a misunderstanding about what it is. They don't really know how to appreciate it properly So education is really important. So your both your your marketers, your evangelist to an extent and also your, educators as well. Are there any other things that you do and you don't do? You seem to have it all covered for the thai market. Yeah. Actually, like, our partnership was quite well balanced our husband's
can create the pace. Yeah. So we can do, like, very nice pairing suggestion to the older markets too. Mh. And she is doing finance, so she can side, like, what we should do or what we shouldn't do. And, I'm just telling story. Right. Has the action been in tile? Has it changed over time? Or is it gonna remain the same? Have there been any surprises? What about the brewers as well? Because the brewers sometimes come visit? You in Thailand. What is their kind of reaction being to see
the thai market? And then have there been any surprises for them do you think? For the brewer reaction is... Like, I'm gonna say. They were really, surprised because some of them came to Thailand for the first time, or others came to Thailand like, since 20 years or something. So, they don't have image of Thailand now. Okay. So when we take them to the... Our clients places is, they are really surprised how advanced tasting menu
we are doing. Right. So, actually, like, what we pair is the high end thai food or high end, like, Makes cuisine in Mexican. Yeah. And not only Japanese cuisine, but we have more variety of the taste. We are pairing up. So that is 1 thing they really surprised, and they really like how sake is drink like a cool drink. Now in Thailand. Our... Like, we start ringing in the Nam Mh first in Highlands. So we we are showing, like, Sa can be really lively too. Mh. It's like natural sparkling and
Yes. Season and you can taste, like, it was more enjoyable than Yeah. Normal sake. So that was the, first thing we did to the hotels or those kind of, high end restaurants. Like, okay. In this way, we can pair with this like more much like this, or we can do suggestion. So that surprise breweries Right. They really like it because it's hot in Talent. And when they drink their Nam okay. It's really refreshing. So they're saying, oh, drinking in thailand
feels better actually. Like, it's really nice. Like, that's Sure was saying. So it was, like, really confident for us too. That was... Okay. They really, like how we serve too. So that was quite moment for us to. In in terms of, also, customer. Yes. Boom, we we also have this story. This late latest event that we did in Bangkok call, it was last month. We had need a hon coming to to Thailand. And and and we had this event at this 1 Michelin star thai restaurant where we pair
nit lineup up with with thai food. And, so people were making reservation. And and 1 person actually reserve and say, they're allergic to Sake. So they just wanna join the event and not drink. At the event we were there together, and then we were just a bit skeptical of how he's allergic to the second. Did you say did you say you I'm allergic to suck specifically? Or was it I'm allergic to alcohol. It was specifically sucky. Second. So... Well that's weird to begin
with this. You're you're allergic to alcohol me. Right. So so I was skeptical. So I I told him. Yeah. Maybe just try a little bit. You know, I'm not sure, have you tried this. So maybe just try something, and then so Ab he did and the whole night. He could not be addicted guess. He really Like They're like, 1 of those, you know, miracle priests you know, Oh, I can see. I can I can drink sucking now? What did you do? That's amazing. Yeah. That's really
cool. Really enjoyed, and and he was, later on telling me that, I had passed ex ex... Bad experience with Sa. So yeah. In the end, he he he said that. So I'm gonna put you on the spot now. And let's focus on ty cuisine and sake. What is it about ty cuisine do you think? And you don't have to answer from, like, a scientific point you or anything. Just did what you feel, what you felt when you first tried Sec and ent cuisine together. What is it that makes it? So such a good match?
So my perspective, high cuisine usually eats with rice. Mh. So basically, like, made with rice. The sake is made up of rice. So, yeah. This is, like, really good much. First of all, and also, Ty cuisine is really a lot of brave in it. They, like, sweet, sour and spicy, and those kind of combination, like, when you drink with wine, it was too much sometimes. But the with sake, then, somehow, at that point, Sa became 1 part of sweetness. Yes. 1 part of sourness. Yeah. So
that... This kind of layer of the taste very well much with the sake. So I really like that. It's very much integration. Right. Isn't it. Yeah. When it comes to any type of sa food pairing, but in particular, thai thai cuisine and Sa, I kind of, I come recon confirm that for myself last night. Right. What about you Pump? And have you had... You... You Japanese cuisine is not your native cuisine. Right? So what was your kind of first experience trained?
Japanese cuisine? Maybe I'll put the question the opposite way around? And how do you think kind of ty cuisine pairs with Sake compared to Japanese something maybe. I think, of course, from my experience, Japanese cuisine is something that is very authentic to the ingredients. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So so I think with that, it actually is a total different world comparing to thai. Okay. We have, like, spices. Yeah.
Wide range of flavor. Whereas, you know, in Japanese Cuisine is is really respecting the the ingredients. It's more simplistic. Right? Yeah. It puts, like, 1 particular ingredient or 1 particular, like, a group of ingredients center stage, whereas tires is just kind of a lot of different flavors. Right? And out. Yeah. Okay. And and for me, I think it's sa is amazing in such a way that, you know, with Japanese cuisine, it enhanced
When you do it... Oh, when you you pair it together, it kind of enhance, like, the flavor are kind of complementing each other. And and and that's 1 side of experience, sag experience with with with flavor. But with Thai cuisine, like you mentioned is a a lot of layers. So I I find it, you know, both very enjoyable. Actually I couldn't test to that. I think definitely, there is a little layers in in thai
cuisine. And I think sort of Sake kind of does a really good job of sort of, like, just getting in between the layers and sort of interacting in different ways. So you get a very multi dimensional experience. I have to say, there aren't many other cuisine can think of where you get that same sort of multi dimensional experience. So it is quite unique. Yeah. I think. But for me, I think the key because are there's a lot of
spicy food. Right? Right. I mean, you know, if you think you've had thai green curry before and you thought it was spicy. I've been told that in Thailand, it's on a different level. The problem perhaps when you're trying to pay other alcoholic beverages, especially say, for example, spirit, something with quite high alcohol, like like Sake. The problem is that the alcohol tends to
exacerbate the spice. Right. The kick up the end, which some people like some people don't like so much, and it can make the flavors taste a little better and sharp. Sa doesn't do that. And I think the reason why... And I was talking to anita Care as well last night and they're sort of, you know, sort of saying that they felt the same way. Is the umami factor that Sake has. Right? And would you say there's a lot of umami in in ty cuisine? Yes. Yes. Because they have a lots of
fermented food. Sure their cuisine. Right. So that is also, like, 1 factor that goes well a lot. And also, we are bringing in or kim techniques a lot. Yeah. That, gives lots of natural mummy flavor a lot. So that is really goes well with noticed with the menu last night. Yeah. Like you you were in my... You were in my you know, Mike 1 of my favorite kind of world as so to speak, you know. And I
was actually... We were stood opposite this, lovely lady, Susie, she's a regular at your events, I guess, her fan. And she was saying... She's Malaysia I think it was right. And she was saying that she's a massive fan of Kim and Yamaha. And, you know, It'll it'll surprise a lot of our Japanese listeners actually, that foreigners, or people outside Japan. Are so fall in love with this category because it's not actually so popular in Japan, I don't think Right.
In comparison. Right. The reason why we like it so much. Is it's the layers. It's the complexity, and it's the, you know, da umami that that you have with it. So I guess in the end of the day, cuisine and and that type of sake is, like a synergy. Right? Which you can't really can create with any other type of of beverage. Yeah. Exactly. And it's funny because I didn't drink sake much before Mh. This business. So that's why, like, my way of shoe choosing the Yeah. Case
is, like, foreigners taste. So you answered my questions from earlier. Finally. But I like it. You you build up the suspense. So Right. Despite being, you know, a Japanese, Say, you didn't really drink a lot of sake, which I think is the case for a lot of people, in japan. Although I don't wanna to generalize. But that's a bit of a problem. Right? So, okay. So can you... Do you think maybe you you have any kind of maybe there's any takeaways that could be used to help
promote to increase the consumption of future. Have you been working on that? By any chance so... So that is what we start doing it this year. Right. Like, starting from even last night. I had a feeling that might be 1 of the motivations Yeah Yeah. Because what we want to do is, like, keep keep buying Sake from them. That it's supporting for them, and that that makes it supporting environment as well. Yeah. That is 1 thing, But the we cannot buy to support 1.
No. So that is not what we can do, but the still like to make fans in Thailand and to see him or our guy, the sake, she got the he ko kick And the Sa and the she our sales lady. And she is talking a lot passionate about us. I was really impressed by that. Like, you all stood up, like, at the beginning of of each of
them. Mh. And you sort of talked about your passion in Sake and about, you know, what the concept of the event was, but also the explanations about the food and Sake pairing as well were really detailed. Mostly a Japanese audience night. Wasn't it. Right? Had any of them... Any of the people who attended have they been Thailand before? Did you get a chance to sort of, yeah chat to them? Yeah. What was the general kind of feeling about the event from them
and they they're gonna reaction? Did it surprise you or is absolutely? It was actually really good feedback but, I even get a lot of direct message from them, and they were saying, like, it was, like, wonderful. Then because they really deep understanding of the thai cuisine and how to pair with the sake that surprised them. That is really our confidence as well. Like, bring back to Japan, like, where the original Sa started. The we are the foreign company doing it.
But the... What they really surprised is also, like what I mentioned Night c was talking a lot about Hem or Buddha and Yeah. Like those Japanese words. Cheers she is passion singing, and those kind of thing is quite unique from the Japanese perspective too. Yes. And how you know in, by the information that Sake selling to abroad. Mh. But you don't really see how they're selling or, like, how much they actually like or Mh. So and after that, how much they can do for their pairing as well.
Yeah. And they're also, like, we want to do, like, cultural exchange with the Thailand. So our partner part tom's husband. He is from Royal family and that his royal family made Mass curry. Yes. That was original recipe and that was told in his family. And the way he actually cooked from the scratch. About the Moss curry at that event. And that was really special moment for them to experience, like, actual original muscle that you can eat A royalty as well. Yeah. Like, at least your
your royal family actually does something useful. Right. Yeah. All the other real families in the world, You know, Getting all the money and just being sort of, you know, enjoying a nice. Yeah. You're doing some useful providing amazing curry for the populace, You know? Learn how to cook and provide some amazing food for us Uk your family in particular. I joke. So yeah. I I think I think that's
like, that's really, really interesting. You know, I'll let you in on a little thing which I've discovered doing some, tourist Sa experiences in in japan. I think it's easier for, people from overseas to understand what Kim and Yamaha is. Because we have a similar kind of culture when making bread. We have a this type of bread called sourdough bread. Right? And that also requires a starter to make it. So, like, what I do now when I'm when I'm teaching people about sack and I have to talk
about the starter. I just say have you ever made Sourdough over bread before? And they look at me and go, Oh, the Sake uses starter as well. There we go. Job done. Don't even have to talk about what it is. And and I think during the pandemic as well, everyone was making either banana bread Melanie pan in Japan or, sourdough bread. And and Sourdough starters are made in a very similar way to a kim Yamaha also. Belgian beer as well. It's kind of similar. It there's just... It's in our
culture already isn't it? You know, this whole concept of making alcoholic beverages of fermented, food products or you know, just using creating this starter in the same way. Yeah. I wanna I wanna kind of diver divert actually into something a little bit different. And so pound, So you went from finance to food. That's quite a career move. Yeah? Yes. That's quite a bold korea move. But having worked in both worlds? Are there any... Is there any kind of,
similarities might not be the right word. But there any kind of interesting perspectives that maybe you can bring to the world from the world of finance? Yes. Or similarity. Mh you short drink a lot in both worlds. Oh, okay. Yeah. No. I'm about... Actually, I think for me in finance, what I did was supporting client. I was in global markets helping corporates to manage their financial risk and maybe, an exchange rate or interest rate or a commodity prices. Those kind of things that Mh,
I was doing. And that is me having to support the client. Right? In in in Sake, I think it's the same thing. What what we are trying to do is actually we are trying to support our customer, which are restaurants. You know, we want their food, they're really good food who actually have some drinks that are complemented with their food. So I think in that perspective, we we are trying hard from our outside, like, we... When I was in banking to, you know, research and
For for Sake, it's the same thing. Like, we want to... Like, you mentioned. We actually tasted that food, some customer, we just go as customer files us before we actually go and sell them. So we know what, like, what type of Sake we're gonna be, proposing to them. So we did that. For me, when I changed from when I get into Sake, I also did, K sa and also Sa some caused. To to actually, support the the client at best. Yeah. 2 very best support the clients. So I think that is 1
kind of similarity just we we're doing. Interesting. So it's not just basically exchanging a lot of money. There's a little bit more involved with finance and, impressed, we give it growth. There. Almost almost Again no worry. So what? Going back to the food in in Sa. Do we review you have a favorite sake and food match? Doesn't necessarily have to be take cuisine. So Mexican cuisine is quite popular in Thailand as well. So... Yeah Favorite Sake is so hard. Right?
It is actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to to pinpoint. I guess, it depends on the location, the food. Yeah. Yeah. It was there anything you would recommend, like, a a real kind of, bombshell pairing that will just blow anyone way you who tries it. The Everyone must try. They're gonna try Sa if they're gonna try a food match in your experience that you've come across. So yesterday, what we've done and everyone really enjoyed was the moo.
Mop copy. Yeah. It was, like, copy is the fermented little shrimp. Okay. That is from Thailand. And actually that ka, Go, grandma made and that she brought in. And it would so good and that kind of food with the Pod technique was really going well. But that with copy, and we made it with the, wild boar. Yeah. And mixed with the, copy. And put on the tofu. And that is a worm food, and it's not cold food. So I much with the wong
because in the mortgage. Oh, no. And usually, numbers was okay, we shouldn't do, like, warming up, But this cuisine, like, we need to, match the temperature. Yeah. And that that worked really well and that that, most of them, they were saying, like, how can you warming up cousin and this is like actually good. So it was much... It's like Is the Bud. Right? Who was wasn't? It's not there. It's not their spritz, like, sort of, kind of, like, slightly sparkling. Fruity
Close. But, but it's a bit bit more sort of savory and a bit more kind of Right? Yeah. Right? So there you go. That's pairing that you absolutely must try what about pam? What for, you know, at what aspects of Japanese culture? Do you like have you fallen in love with? And how do you think Japanese culture compares with? Times. You don't have to make a comparison. Well, I actually like to japan a lot. I come here. Very often. Actually, I I love... I think
with the couch it's too aspect. 1 aspect is that, they're really into what they do. So whether be growing fruits, making sake or doing everything, I I find that Japanese really pay attention to every single detail. Yes. Which is, something that is very, wonderful movie at admirable. Like, my daughter, always say, why is everything so good in Japan like? Why everything I eat so good every roots I yeah. I I think that's 1 thing that I like a lot about the culture.
And the other aspect is, while working with Japanese. Trust is really really taken seriously here. And and for us to do... To be doing business with Japanese. It's really a con comfort, like. Find it very comfortable where, like, you know, I know that if I'm good to them. If I'm always sincere and trustworthy, they're not gonna be trained me. They're not just gonna, you know, when when they trust their trust and I I think I find that also very good working with Japanese as well.
Thailand is Japan's sister, sister, sister culture. That's really interesting to hear. You have a particular project which caught my eye called the 40 Creations. Yeah. And do I understand this correctly that you want to create 40 creations? Is that the goal? Yeah. Why 40. Did you just have a pick a number and had a realistic 1 of that. So I started, I was 20 something. Yeah. Okay. I didn't imagine. I'm gonna be 40. So. Close to 40 o. Yeah. But it's not that 40, but the Yeah. 4 0 is, actually,
in Japanese. She and what we can call it. Of course. So, like, I wanted to make, like, a really good wrinkle with through, those projects so that is more like shoe creations for me. So, like, I want to be, like, really cute entrepreneur grandmother's in the future. So I was, hoping to do the project for the, good wrinkle to the people. So that it's my gold. You clearly enjoy creating things Yes. Right? So you have an a creative itch there? You know,
Have you scratched to that? Or do you think there's still more projects in the pipeline? Is there any projects in the pipeline. So I hey. You can talk about? Yeah. Now I'm food sample artist? Oh. Do you know food something? I'm trying to think food samples, of course. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. Bake food. The the fake food that made from, like, the plastic or something. Right? Right. Which if you come to Japan, you can actually learn how to make Right? Yeah. Mh And I was born in gif. Mh. And
that that... Which is where it originates. Right? Yes. I know that. And gif is, like, good or bad but no 1 for the fake. So that is the our identity I can say. Well, it's okay. It's a beautiful, like, you know, national heritage. Yep. It's it's a really beautiful environment. So maybe we can forgive them for having this fake culture. Right. So you are a food sample artist. Right. So, Wake, give us as an example, what is the latest creation that you're quite proud of
for you. So I start doing from the outside because there is no knees in Berlin. No. Other crude sample myself. But I find out this is really interesting, like, unique culture because, like, Pam mentioned, like, we are into all the details. Right? Like, we are kind of Ot mentality in all over japan. And this food sample it's super Or taco because Yeah. Like, when I talk to german person about my project and she was telling me directly that I really don't know what you
wanna do. With this. Because there is nothing. You cannot eat and you cannot do something with No. But to create, like, really looks tasty thing, like, with the older your skills in it. Like, actually, it has, like, more, like, 90 years old history or something and I trained at the 1 lady. They're 1 must, and I learned this skill. But that this is kind of so useless and so cute. And so amazing this. It shows so bad so real. You know, you can eat them, they look
really edible. They look really good. You know. So if you come to Japan, and you look at the windows of the restaurants, like they all have these food sump. It's big business in Japan isn't it? Yes. Every restaurant will have food samples. Right? This is also, same as sake. I cannot say sake, but... No. But I think I know where you're going. Yeah. This is going to be, like, shrinking Yes. Industry. Yeah. And the it was a lot in Japan. But the it was the a moment like behind.
So I want to use this technique to, like, when I do it in abroad. Then I can show, like, other perspective of this thing. So not just only, like, the showcase of the restaurant, but there is no use for that anymore. But maybe from the outside, Mh it has kind of, different angle I can show. This is kind of what we want to do in Sa too. Like, we don't need to show like, this was older people's thing or any kind of, hub say, like, stereotype? Yeah. Yeah. We don't have any stereotype
in abroad. Yeah. So we can create, like, actual, value that we can show. You start with a blank canvas. Right. Right? With no pre. Well well, maybe some pre. Misconceptions. You start pretty much with a blank canvas. Right. And you paint a new kind of yeah. Picture about what Is. I think that's the biggest advantage about Selling overseas isn't something that you can't really do here in Mh Japan, it's a bit tricky. Yep. It's been really, really interesting
you know, chatting to you both. I learned so much about high culture and parallels that I didn't know existed. And also, I'm really, really, really inspired and excited for the future of not only the Thai Sa market, but also, Sa in general, I think a lot of it will... You can kind of import back into Japan. Right? Lot of the discoveries and, marketing techniques and things, which I think would be great for the Sake industry. Can I finish by asking you sort of both to You do you have any?
Anything that you wanna share with the listeners, any projects that you want to share or maybe a message to listeners, you know, anyone who's thinking of visiting Thailand or? Well, I I'd say, try Sake with Typhoon. Mh. I think that is something that, you know, like, you mentioned not many people have tried. Yeah, visit Thailand, and, if you visit, like, just contact us, and maybe we can list up our wonderful clients, and you can drink sake with thai food or sake with Mexican and Thailand or
drinking Sake in Thailand. It's quite experienced. So, yeah, I think that would be great if you can do it. Wonderful. And we will put, like, all the information about, you know, your social media, and the websites and things in our show notes. But is that kind of, like a a social media handle you can share now? Our instagram is, Sa. Sa. Seekers us into go look look. Right? We hunt... Stuck. We haven't... That's a great name.
Oh, I have a bonus question actually. So this is kind of, like, I forgot to ask this. So I'm gonna ask this 1. The logo. So Cindy and I were discussing this last night. And the first thing that came to mind is it's almost got like an Egyptian hi kind of looked to it. Almost like a cult religion kind of religion... The religious cult look to it. Was that intentional or what's the inspiration behind in donald? Chili. I would surprise in a good way with fifth logo.
Actually, thai team handled this local and poor Japanese if we do sa, we're not gonna do this kind of logo. No. I don't think so. Right? No. No No. So this is, like, really wow, moment to me actually with my logo. So Yeah. Yeah. I think for us, well, what we have a a designer. Yeah. In in Thailand. And, what we briefed them is actually, you know, normally, like, we we want to move away from the traditional of Sake. Oh. Yeah. So so that's what
the the first brief is. And then, you know, we seek second. So Yeah We we kinda wanna incorporate that. And because we want to move away from nutritional side, like, the brief was just you know, we wanted to make it fun. It definitely is important. Because what we are doing for us as a, like, our culture is actually we're doing it because we enjoy it. Yeah. And and we want our logo to reflect that. Yeah. Yeah.
I thought... It's just like it's the all seeing it's like your drinking like you have this eye looking but you drink second. Are you enjoying second? But, yeah. I'm looking at you. But it's gonna cool. It's very eye catching. I think you you you couldn't create a brand called Sa and not have an eye on there. Something. Right Right. Okay. Well, Thank you so much. Thank you both for taking the time out of your very busy schedule. I'm sure to come and chat with us, chat with me today.
I really enjoyed. Listening to your story and learning more about the the Tai market. And like I, I'm really excited for the future. Thank you so much. Thank you for us it was enjoyable. Thank you very much. And I think that will do it for this episode of Sa. Thank you very much for listening. Please take a moment to review and rate on Apple podcasts or whatever platform you may be enjoying the show on and feel free to send your questions and comments to questions
at sa air dot com. Or at sa on Instagram, twitter and Facebook. We'll be back with more Sa air in just a couple of weeks time until then, camp. Bye. This episode has been made possible with a generous support of the Japan Sake Maker's Association. Sa was created by Pots k productions and is produced by export Japan. Our team is just in Pots. Cindy bliss, Sebastian 1, John Ga, Chris hughes, Rebecca Wilson Lai, Marine Na, Christopher Pell, Arlene Lyon and Frank Walter.