Recovery Radio [music and singing] KMP300 [music] >> coffee constantly, right guys? Up top. Just kidding. All right. So excited. We're going to continue with the what does the big book say? Workshop information. And I'm going to uh introduce a very close friend of mine and his name is Dave. Hi Dave. >> I'm great. I was telling them uh last time we did this, we did record this segment already. >> And and I don't I don't know if we'll be as funny this time as we were. [laughter]
>> So we I I thought we got really funny about the male modeling at the end. >> We'll try. >> Okay. We are going to talk about step one. Um according to the big book, what does the big book say about step one? Not what everybody else says about step one, not what my sponsor tells me about step one, not what I've heard repeatedly and still hear all the time about step one, but what the big book actually says
about step one. Because a lot of people believe that they go right out of the big book, they do the steps right out of the big book. And Dave and I have learned in part from doing this workshop and this study that um that's true. A lot of people actually believe that and then when we start going through it, it's vastly different
from what they've been doing. And so, so there's a lot of uh popular commonplace things we could say about step one, but and and and with the time constraints we have, we're not going to be able to get into every nook and cranny the way we normally have and sometimes do.
But I want to paint the general picture today and so people have it and then invite people to do some homework to write in >> and you know and we will discuss anything that feels appropriate to discuss in the next show or in an upcoming show or we'll answer the email whatever there's questions commentary things like that we can make it part of that discussion. So um but I just want to put the the I want to paint with broad strokes today
because there's so much here. This is where the problem and the solution are intersected within the fellowship to really create a a message that is confusing frankly and um we'll get to that more and more but for the purposes of this podcast I want to say a few things about step one and and then have Dave say some
And we'll talk about these things. So what I wanted to say about it is the big book says the first step in recovery is that we need to admit to our innermost selves that we're alcoholic. That's the first step in recovery. How to make somebody do that? You can't make somebody do that. It is very subjective and it's very personal. Also the authors say their hope right away they say their hope is that no further authentication will be
necessary. Their hope is that a reader will just read this, read the alcoholic problem described and say, "I drink like that and I am willing to uh work this take this program of spiritual action." And so, so the clear-cut directions don't begin with step one in my understanding. it. They begin in the chapter how it works. How it works does not start with step one. How it works starts with step three. They describe they, you know, they give
a overview of everything. They list the steps, all the steps, and we'll get to that more, but there's no part that says in italics, this is step one. This is what we did. >> Right? Because you can't make somebody reach bottom. You can't make somebody reach a place where they are convinced that their life has become unmanageable. The other thing I wanted to say is so what they do instead is they tell story after story. They give illustration after illustration, chapter after chapter
saying do you get it? Do you understand? Do you drink this way? Do you understand that you're going to drink no matter what eventually if you're an alcoholic? No matter what with your own willpower. If you're relying on knowing how bad it is, if you're relying on knowing the consequences, if you are relying on playing the tape through, if you're relying on your own mental power and know you're a real alcoholic, eventually you will drink.
Do you get it? And then once you start drinking, you're off to the races. And they say this over and over and over again with the hope that we say, "Yeah, that's me. I get it." And the other thing I wanted to say is about there's a lot I want to say. One thing I want to say is about unmanageability. our life becomes very manageable. Every single life you could make an argument is not manageable in with the you know in the absence of God. You can make that argument for
sure. We're going to get to all that. You're maybe an idiot while sober. Maybe you make stupid decisions while sober. Maybe you make really selfish, destructive, crazy decisions while sober. My understanding, having dissected the book over and over again through the study, is that that's not what they're addressing in step one. And this is what they are addressing. And it is the car dealership analogy that I like so much. If you go to a car
dealer and say, "I want this car." And the car dealer says, "Hey, it's the color that you love. It has the gas mileage that you love. It's the price you love. Everything about it, it's perfect. There's one thing about it, Dave. >> What's that?" >> It loses its brakes sometimes. >> When? >> Well, it varies. Sometimes it's at the same time all the time, but it's really It varies. And you don't know how long you're going to lose
the brakes for. Maybe I'll just say this car maybe 5% of the time. >> Is that a drivable car? >> Can I live with that? >> I mean, >> I guess that's up to me. It's personal. >> Yes. >> Subjective. >> Yes. And that's exactly what they're talking about in my belief and understanding when they say our lives have become unmanageable. They're
saying an alcoholic lifestyle. If you're living an alcoholic lifestyle, you're practicing drinking, you are like a car that loses its brakes sometimes, >> right? [snorts] And when your life becomes unmanageable slash your car becomes undrivable is subjective and it's personal. And I know people I sponsored a guy who had over 20 DUIs. 27 DUIs. >> Wow. >> And it didn't seem possible. But somehow he racked it up for years
and the laws were different. And bottom line, he you you you could look at him and keep saying to yourself, this is the bottom. This now now he gets it. Now he's going to stop. Now he has admitted to his innermost self that he's alcoholic, but you can't it's an internal thing. The point I'm trying to make is his car had no brakes. >> Yeah. >> His car lost brakes like basically completely and he was like, "No, this is still a drivable car."
And then there's people that I know who one thing happens, they lose their brakes for one moment and they're like, "This is undrivable. I need to stop drinking. My life has
become unmanageable." So, and a reason I wanted to talk about that right out of the gate is because I think it's so it makes such a difference in the experience you're having when you are going through life sober for years saying you're unmanageable, your life's unmanageable, your life's unmanageable when >> right >> I just think that that it it affects a lot of the rest of what we're going to do here in a really in in a stifling ne it's not a it's not an uplifting
It's not as it's not a freeing mindset mentality to me. It wasn't to me I should say. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> That was my experience. Yes. >> So your thoughts on what I've said, Dave? Uh what comes to mind immediately is I'm going to throw another analogy out there. And keep in mind that I my first introduction to Alcoholics Anonymous I was 20 years old and uh and I didn't actually get sober until I was
40. And so there was like a 20 year span there of going in and out of alcoholics anonymous and uh all over the country and different philosophies and approaches to the steps and different methods. Um, and it was all kind of, you know, very confusing like you were talking about that, um, I was under the impression that, um, all of pretty much all of my, I guess, uh, quirky behavior, my insecurities, and, uh, my, I guess, lack of social skills and my control issues, all of that was alcoholism.
and uh I stayed sick for a very long time. So So the analogy I want to use is if if I were to make a cake and I got a I got a a box of cake mix and on the box on the back of the box it has it has you know [snorts] 12 ingredients and it calls for you know flour and sugar and eggs and milk and so on and so on. If at some point I get to where it says eggs and I don't have eggs. So I'm digging through the fridge and I'm like,
I got chicken liver. I don't have any eggs, but I do have chicken liver and they both come from a chicken. So I'm I'm sure this is going to be okay. It It doesn't matter if I follow the directions. Doesn't matter if I follow them precisely up to that point and precisely after that point, I'm not going to end up with a cake. >> I love I love that analogy.
In looking back at my experience and my history, like I said, over this 20 years span and these different approaches and the different mentalities and different understandings, um, I feel like I I can say right now that I right off the bat, I used eggs. I
mean, I used chicken lover. And that I think honestly in my opinion the step one [snorts] often times you know kind of what we're discussing here it's this word of mouth message that we've gotten is the chicken lover and clearing that up replacing that not using that and using actual eggs. The eggs are in the big book is very simple in the big book. There's there's honestly there's one test that
the Big Book offers for the reader. If you want to determine whether or not you're an alcoholic, you could try this. You could go to the nearest barroom and try to drink and stop abruptly and try more than once. Try to drink and then stop and try it more than once. There's nothing whatsoever about, you know, what are your you have any kind of quirky behaviors? Are you like extra insecure? Have you always felt like not a part of? There's like none of that is in there.
That's the test if you want to find out if you're an alcoholic. But like I said, my understanding of that was so skewed for for so many years. And this just this mentality of that every quirky behavior, every insecurity or weird thought that I have is is because I'm an alcoholic. It it it kept me two things stick out in my mind vividly. It made me resentful at the rest of the
world. If you're not an alcoholic, I really didn't think that you had I didn't really look at other people and honestly, as sick as it sounds, I just didn't really feel like they had feelings. And I just didn't consider them to be really, you know, human with with feelings and and that they just had things made and then life was handed to them on a silver platter. They didn't have the kind of struggles that I have.
They didn't have this insecurities that I have and the fears and control issues and you know, however we've blown that out [clears throat] of proportion. So, it made me resentful at the rest of humanity [clears throat and cough] >> and it also enabled me to stay a victim, >> right? >> I don't have it. I don't have it as good as you do. You have it better than me. You have it easier than I do.
>> I'm an alcoholic and something that alcoholism is something that I'm powerless over and I will always be struggling with this for the rest of my life. I'm mad at you and I'm a victim. Right. >> And I never found I never found any long-term sobriety uh under under those conditions. Um and I never found freedom [snorts] uh or happiness or real connections to other people. And like I said, that's just to put it simply, that's that was me using chicken liver right off the
bat. And it just it just didn't matter what I did thereafter. it was I never ended up with, you know, a beautiful cake. I love that analogy and it's also really sad to me because I I I believe that that's a very common experience and I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and and and thinking about all the ways that has come to this and the and the things in the big book that are taken out of
context. text and all the other literature that goes against the big book that is supports the confusion almost, you know, >> right? >> Um, but yeah, the big book is super simple in its description of the real alcoholic. It's super simple. It has nothing to do with our character defects. We become alcoholic. were not born alcoholic in the beginning of the book would become alcoholic. Dr. Silkworth describes the alcoholic as often entirely normal in every respect.
Entirely normal in every respect. And um it talks about the main problem of the alcoholic centering in his mind. I talked about that last time. the bedments. They're describing human problems. >> Okay. >> Um there's so much more. There's um and little things, a lot of little things, too, that end up meaning a lot later on, like self-nowledge. Here's one. The big book bends over backwards to say self-nowledge is not the answer.
It's not the answer. It's not So meaning you can understand your alcoholism completely. You can write about it. You can analyze it. You can study it. you can and it's not I know that that process really helps some people but it also I think kills some people because some people are not in a position to dick around for a month writing about step one. If I were told to do that I would be dead. >> Yeah. >> There's no doubt in my mind I would be dead.
I didn't it was urgent. I didn't have time to I knew I was an alcoholic. I admitted to my innermost self I was an alcoholic. There's no doubt. >> And what always it's just something to think about is the big book just bends over backwards to say self-nowledge doesn't help and but writing about your alcoholism is self-nowledge. No. >> Yes.
>> Yes. Yeah. I was as you were saying that I was just thinking about how many times I've heard people say that you know they got a sponsor and their sponsor's direction is that they have to stay sober for 30 days before they start doing any work. 30 days before I give you step one instructions, >> right? And um that is it's so heartbreaking and so confusing because if you're an alcoholic, I mean, if if you understood step one, you would understand that you can't ask an
alcoholic to stay sober for 30 days. I mean, they may be able to, they may not, you know, but >> you're asking, you're confusing them right off the bat, saying, "I want you to use your self-nowledge and your and your willpower to stay sober, and if you really want it, you'll stay sober, and then we'll >> right >> and then we'll start learning about step
one." And and then, you know, after 30 days, okay, so step one is essentially that you don't have the power to refrain from drinking, you know, on a permanent basis, >> right? And I think part of the reason I think it's well-intentioned how we got here. I really do. But I think that part of the problem is there are people who can abstain for a month easily.
>> Yeah. >> And they so you know and then and then on top of that they were told to abstain for a month and write about step one and you know and then they were told you know somebody else told them you know it goes on and on. But there are people who are uncap incapable of doing that. And >> yeah, >> this is two of them right here. >> Yeah. >> And I and I and I've [clears throat] watched a lot of people get wiped out
during this time. I mean, more than anything else, I've I mean, I can't tell the beginning of the I can't tell you how many times I've I've talked to somebody who's like dying. They want to drink. They're the the obsession's crazy. And and the conversation is, you know, where are you at with the steps? Cuz you the relief doesn't come in step one. There's no relief that comes in step one or step two. You're still flying over unprotected skies. And >> so many times I've said like, do you
know your where you at? There's steps and and well, I'm not allow I'm not done with step one, >> right? >> Well, do you have you admitted to your inner self you're alcoholic? Oh, yeah, definitely. Well, my sponsor won't let me. move on. And that it it works for people. It also I I I've seen it. It kills people, too. And and more more to the point is if you disagree with all this and if everything we're saying has helped you and is helping you, that's beautiful.
All we're saying is it's not in the big book to tell somebody to wait. It's not in the big book to write about their alcoholism. That's not going right out of the big book. That's not in the big book. So, at least I mean that's the purpose of the study is what does the big book say? The big book says there's no writing in step one. The big book says don't ask somebody to stay sober for 30 days and test their resolve and you know doesn't it doesn't that's not the that's not the direction.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's worth noting that the original you know roughly 100 members a had accumulated roughly 100 members when they decided to write down write the big book and uh those original 100 members had actually uh worked a six-step program and the first step was complete deflation. Complete deflation. So, kind of along the lines of what you were saying earlier, like how do you help a person
achieve that? You know, is there is there some sort of a writing assignment that you can you can give to them where they're, you know, they'll they'll work this assignment and at the end they'll be like, "Oh, I'm completely deflated. You know, I'm out of ideas. I'm willing to do anything." You know, so it's food for thought. Is there a way to do that? >> Right.
>> According to the big bug, no. Um but [clears throat] also I think it's worth noting along those lines and you know in in the chapter working with others we meet a newcomer you know we have a talk with him blah blah blah there's you know a little bit of instruction there um but you know if he doesn't if he's not interested in your solution you know wish him well he may be more willing after he gets hurt some more you know um he may be more receptive when he's depressed I think it
says it you know three or four times in there that like ah he might need to hurt hurt some more, you know, wait until the end of a spring. >> Yeah. >> Like because that's usually when a I can tell you I I I try to speak for myself, but I can tell you I I had achieved complete deflation. I don't know how many times in my little 20 years stretch there. Um but after every time, like I was willing. I you give me a solution, you know? I I'll I'll do what you I I'll
do whatever you're suggesting. Like I'm willing. But um as I start to feel a little bit better, as time passes and I start to feel a little bit better, my willingness kind of fades and I'm not really willing to, >> right? >> You know, I'm okay where I'm at. So >> yeah, I mean, yeah, it does say it multiple times. The more hopeless he feels, the better. >> Yeah,
>> I remember. So, when somebody comes to me completely deflated, I mean, I kind of, you know, like I said, you know, I I sit down, I have a talk with a person, kind of get an idea of where they're at. But if they're completely deflated, they need a solution. Now, I'm not going to Here's
the way I look at it. Honestly, if if [snorts] I take my direction from God, somebody comes to me, they're in desperate need of a solution, I'm going to ask God, God, do you want me to help this person to establish a relationship with you? Can you imagine God saying, "I don't know how willing he is, Dave. Make sure he waits, you know, maybe make him wait 30 days before you before you, you know, help him connect to me."
There's people that would there's there's people that would argue that that they that is their direction and it's worked for them, you know. >> True. Yeah. >> I mean, but >> I I agree with you. Like so I I agree with what you said and a lot of people do kind of thrive on that kind of uh direction. But I've also I also feel like a lot of people get hurt. I mean, it'd be one if it'd be it'd be one thing if more people were getting sober than ever. Then this would be a
different conversation. If if if Alcoholics Anonymous were mushrooming and success were flying high, >> it'd be a different conversation. But but it's most people don't stay sober. And I I personally have come to see and believe for myself that this is some of why I concur. >> And and if and again, if if you disagree with all this, that's that's we're not
saying like this is right. We're not saying this is the only way, whatever, but this is what's in the the big book does not say right about step one. So at least at least at least know that you know it's it makes me think of Christian's brilliant analogy about the yoga studio. You such a these great analogies where it's like there's a yoga studio and everybody's doing yoga and these people come in and they start doing you know crossfit you know. >> Yeah. And then people are like, I'm
butchering it, Christian. Sorry, but you know, and they're like, oh, this is yoga. We're doing yoga. And then people start following that and saying, "Oh, this is yoga." And it's not yoga. Like, it's okay to do that, but don't call it yoga. Don't say that you're going right out of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous if you're having people write down their definitions because none of that is in the big book. It's not in the big book. And it kills people like me.
And I have known far more people who have been harmed by that and my um experience with them than helped. There are people who are helped by it. But again, those are by and large people who the big book even talks about that too. How long you can quit on a non-spiritual basis depends on you. It's very idiosyncratic. It's different for everybody. >> Yeah. >> And then add to that that not everybody in AA is an alcoholic. There's hard drinkers.
And so you have all these different people passing on this message with really good intentions that is accidentally causing a lot of harm. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's weird because I on one hand I I I I kind of appreciate how much I struggled over those years. I feel like um my experience now is just so much sweeter because of how much I struggled for so many years. >> So we'll throw another analogy out there.
I uh >> Wait, wait, Dave, do you remember Do you remember when your nickname was analogy Dave? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then we tried to make you >> We tried to make you Latino Latino Dave. >> Latin Dave. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Latin Dave. >> Yeah. >> But that didn't take cuz you're not Latin. >> Right. >> Yeah. People were like, "Oh, I saw Dave the other day." And you'd be like, "Oh,
Latin Dave." No. You know Dave, the guy that drives the Mustang. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Latin Dave. No, no, no, no. Not Latin. No. No. Analogy Dave. Analogy Dave. [laughter] >> Yeah. Anyways, so yeah, please an analogy. So my analogy is that like I live in Southern California right now and I feel like I appreciate being warm more than somebody who maybe grew up in Southern California cuz I grew up in in Nebraska where it gets like bitter bitter cold, you know?
So, my analogy is like, you know, if you're outside and it's it's 70° outside and and you walk into a house and it's 70°, you're like, h, you know, feels nice. Like, whatever. But if you've ever been in like 10 below zero weather and you walk into a house that's 70°, it's like, oh my god, it feels so good in here. is it was worth the pain of being that cold to be feeling warm is just so wonderful, you know, it was worth it.
>> And so in that sense, I I kind of look back at my history and like I struggled a lot. I did and I was confused and I was unhappy a lot. And the message, the experience that I'm having now is I believe just that much sweeter because of that. I I I I feel like, you know, in order to like really truly appreciate something, you have to experience the opposite. If you to like really truly experience or uh to to truly appreciate a spiritual way of life, you have to
have gone through hell. And and and I feel like I went through a lot of hell and my the spiritual life is is just that much sweeter now because of that. So, with that said, and to a degree I can kind of appreciate all the struggle and all the confusion that I had, but um I just I I I firmly believe that I was just lucky enough to stay alive. >> Yeah. You're lucky >> that long.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, >> I could have very easily died [clears throat] and not had the experience that I'm having now. >> That's right. So, like you said, you know, I don't want to poo poo anybody else's approach or or anything like that. And I'm not saying anything's anybody's doing anything wrong. You know, we've talked about that before. I know you've used the Trader Joe's analogy. Like, you know, you can go to
Trader Joe's. So, for you and I, we're to kind of set the scene for for the listeners. We're usually uh in this parking lot at this meeting hall that we're at and and there's a Trader Joe's like right across the street and and we'll be talking to a newcomer. will be like, "Hey, you know, I just want you to get to Trader Joe's. You know, just get to Trader Joe's. I don't care how you get there. You want to ride part of the way with me? Great. You want to ride
with somebody else? Great. Like, I don't care. Just get to Trader Joe's. Now, you can go out of the parking lot, you can make a right, you can go three miles there and then turn and then another five miles. You can go, you know, in a big circle and you can end up at Trader Joe's. It's not wrong. I'm not saying you can get there that way. It's not the wrong way to get there. But you can also just go right across the street and get to Trader Joe's. So neither way is
wrong. But if you take that really long route in today's day and age, um it's a risk. It's a risk, especially like with, you know, I mean, if we're going to be talking about, you know, with like drugs and stuff, it's it's a it's a it's a bigger risk with with somebody dying before they can get to Trader Joe's. >> Well, here's here's the thing. It's not in the book, that's all. >> You know, right? It's not in the book.
And >> and I'm in that awkward position for 30 years now >> of having conversations with people where they say, "Wait, you're not having me write about step one?" And I'll say, "No, it's not in the book." And then there's so much in the fellowship that disagrees with me going right out of the book that it's like, okay, you've lost some uh credential here. So, I'm going to go you're not doing it as thoroughly as my
this guy down the street. On top of that, I think the assignment confuses things later because going back to the unmanageability thing, they're talking about the fact that if you if you're an alcoholic, you're like a car. When you're a drinking, if you're a practicing alcoholic, you're like a car that loses its brakes. Sometimes we'll get to you. We'll and and I can I we've done this so many times. I know this is when the hands start going up. And what about the
spirit? What about my shortcomings? What about, you know, my character defects? What about the stupid, insane decisions I make in regular life? We'll get to all of that. It's not that that it's not that none of that is uh important, but we're going to keep it in its proper context. This isn't about that. Step one is not about you needing God. Step one is about you reaching a point where you are open to their open to needing a god which is step two.
>> Yeah, >> character defects are not alcoholism. >> Dave, we'll get you >> later. According to the big book, >> we'll get to that. We'll get to that. And it seems like a lot of one of the things that people do who've gone through the study often is they around this time they get frustrated. >> Yes. >> This is where people get real frustrated. >> Right.
>> And so I want to and and and I I I understand a lot of the reasons why because they've been expressed to me many many times. And it's where there's a rush to get to the solution. It's a it's a confusion between the growing spiritually and the spiritual malady um being part of you know there's and and there's just a lot of confusion here. This is this is there's a lot of untangling. And so I just want to
simplify it yet again. I just want to summarize and say we're not saying anything about what works or doesn't work for you. The big book itself doesn't even declare that. The big book itself says, "Hey, we're just telling you what we did." And all we are saying is this.
As a result of an exhaustive study we had gone through repeatedly and reached consensus after consensus, it is our conclusion that the big book step one is as simple as everything up to we agnostics attempting to help the reader relate to the fact that he or she is screwed. and cannot stop drinking with their own intelligence. They can't stop drinking with therapy. I mean, he you know what Roland went to the greatest psychiatrist on the planet who was like, "You're screwed. Sorry."
>> I mean, if therapy were the answer, everybody would just be doing therapy. And this isn't saying anything bad about therapy. It's just saying in the big book, step one is therapy is not the answer. If you're a real alcoholic, that's not the answer. Your intelligence is not the answer. Triggers, avoiding triggers, that's not that's whack-a-ole. The everything is if you're an alcoholic, the sun is a trigger, the moon's a trigger. Good luck.
>> Yeah. >> And there's no writing there's no writing assignment >> and of whatsoever for step one. And step one in all of its content by and large is covered in everything all the Roman numerals everything up to we agnostics. >> Yes. Yeah. Well, like I said, there's there's one test that they suggest and that's to go to the nearest barroom, try to drink a few and then stop abruptly, try it more than once. But in those chapters that you're talking about,
there's a doctor's opinion. And even the doctor's opinion, he he gives examples of like different types of alcoholics, but in in reality, he's he's actually describing different types of people who are alcoholics. You know, he talks about like even like the they refer to as the manic depressive type. I mean, if you're manic depressive and an alcoholic, I mean, manic depressive is not part of alcoholism, but you could have you could be manic depressive and have alcoholism.
>> But then he also says like, but then there's the types that are entirely normal in every respect except in the effect that alcohol has on them, >> right? >> And then they give example after example after example. There's going to be, you know, Bill's story. There's going to be the story about Roland Hazard. Uh the story about the retired businessman. Um the story about Jim, the guy that thought he could put whiskey in his milk. The story about Fred who ended up
in the taxi cab in New York. But I would encourage all the listeners like take our word for it or actually better yet go look for yourself. Read each of those stories and each one of those examples they will briefly describe the person. And they briefly described, you know, Roland Hazard as as, you know, an American businessman. He was successful. He had money, you know, he uh he made made good decisions and everything, you know, besides alcohol.
>> Yeah. >> And Jim [clears throat] was a regular guy, you know, he was he was a businessman. Had his own business at one point. >> Um they they even say he's normal except for a nervous disposition. And uh and then there's, you know, the retired businessman, very successful. Um, there's Fred, who is actually described as an extraordinary guy. Um, everybody likes Fred, but he's alcoholic. >> I didn't really like Fred. >> Yeah,
Fred was a little cocky. I thought >> I didn't I never I never cared for him, but they >> It's the one line in the big book that's not true because I didn't like Fred. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a moat. Everybody liked it. Um, what it says when it says, "What about the real alcoholic?" What page is that on when it says, "What about the real alcoholic?" >> We're going to describe to you the real alcoholic. No exceptions. Here's the real deal. What does it say about his thinking?
>> Oh, that he's uh often perfectly sensible and well balanced concerning everything except for liquor. >> Perfectly sensible and well. So the big book actually says the alcoholic, the real alcoholic is often perfectly sensible and well balanced concerning everything except liquor. But in that respect, he's incredibly
dishonest and selfish. If I went into a meeting and said, I'm an alcoholic, so I'm perfectly, you know, my case is that I'm often perfectly sensible and well balanced concerning everything else. Everybody would be like, dude, you are high. You are smoking pot again. >> What is wrong with you? Are you high again? But that's what the big book says. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's very simple, very
uncomplicated. So, so for the listener, the homework if you're interested in doing it and I've gotten some awesome responses from the last couple episodes about this and people are engaged and excited about this and it's awesome. So, here's and people have asked me specifically for homework. So, what homework would we would you suggest, Dave, or did you just do that? re reading. Well, like I said, there's, you know, I've said it before, there's one
test that they suggest. I I wouldn't want to really encourage anybody to go try and drink, but that's the test that they suggest, but they, like I said, so the doctor's opinion, reading the doctor's opinion, Bill's story, uh, and then chapter two and chapter three, those have the stories about Roland and Jim and Fred and the retired businessman, >> the Jaywalker. Um, and then the Jaywalker, all of that, the real
alcoholic. After all of that, you'll get to chapter 4, which starts off by saying in the preceding chapters, everything you've read up to this point, in these chapters, we hope we've made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic, the difference between the alcoholic and the regular person. If when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely or if when drinking you have little control over how much you drink, then you're
probably alcoholic. [snorts] Like I said, we're not going to deem anybody alcoholic. This is something personal and it's subjective. If you've read everything up to this point, if you've read the doctor's opinion, chapter 1, chapter 2, chapter 3, you have read their description of the alcoholic. >> That's also >> Having read that, >> no, that's I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Having read that, uh, do you feel like is can you answer to yourself like I I've not been able to stop drinking or when I drink I have little control over how much I drink, >> right? >> If if I can if if that makes sense to me, then they're saying probably alcoholics.
>> They don't say, you know, if you have no attention span, if you're totally selfish, if you're >> off your rocker, if you throw your mom down the stairs, if you drive backwards on the highway, you're probably alcoholic, >> right? None of that. >> None of it. And those things might be true >> and they are true for some people. >> Right. >> But >> you can't blame that on alcoholism.
>> You can't blame that on alcoholism. As Mike used to say, >> poor old alcohol. >> Don't blame poor old alcoholism. And what's also really important in what you just said is they're done describing the alcoholic now, >> right? When you get to we agnostics, they're done. I invite you to read it carefully. They're done describing the alcoholic. They say sentences here and there that seem to contradict what we're talking about right now, which I promise we will
get to. And there is clarity with those. I know there's a bunch of, you know, there's some sentences throughout the Big Book that seem to contradict what we're saying. But I invite you at this point to read everything up to we agnostics. Read the context of the full flight from reality. Read the whole sentence. Read it carefully. Read that sentence very very carefully. Read the context of the jaywalker. Read the context of the main problem centers in his mind. Read everything they say about
a real alcoholic. Read it carefully. Read what Dr. Silkworth says. read it and and yeah and we'll go from here. We'll we'll next time we will start uh at we agnostics. We'll talk about we agnostics and we'll talk about what the big book says about step two which might be like a five minute podcast but we will we >> I can talk about that for a while. I can talk about step two for a while. I can.
But according to the according to the book, it's like >> according to the book, step step two, >> literally >> we could finish it right now. >> That's true. That's true. >> But we'll get we'll get to that. But because there's a lot there, I invite you to read it. Email if you want and
stay tuned. It's exciting. And then if anybody wants to know, I've mentioned it on here before, but this podcast I always give a shout out to podcast greater than yourself is going through the big book and they inspired this actual what we're doing here. So I thank them for that. Love those guys. And you know, that's something to check out
as well. And we're going to go over I I had the honor of doing step three on that show and what I'm going to do on here will be pretty close to identical to that because that's because I >> because you're going to be reading from
the book. I'll be reading from the book and I'll be interjecting the same you know similar things that I always am moved to do and but anyway so that's there the podcast greater than yourself but I invite you to jump ahead or I invite you to you know jump up to um we read up to agnostics and uh and check it out you know it's amazing and all these things.
I mean again I also have to say this initially this took I mean six months at least to go through >> just all this stuff because of the confusion because of the questions because of the seeming contradictions seeming the because of the message that's normal in the fellowship and it took months and months so we are squeezing a lot in a short period of time and we're we're aware of that and that's why I'm inviting you if you're if you want further clarification or you want
to talk or you whatever it is about it just email sarcastic bigbook atgmail. Um my coffee is gone Dave. >> Mine is not mine's still pucking hot as a matter of fact. >> Well, we'll wait. We'll wait. >> [laughter] >> I have mine in a thermal cup. So, I do too. I do. Let me see if it's still piping hot. It might not be piping. It may be exaggerating. You know, I am an alcoholic. >> Yeah. >> Hey Dave, you want to get into a guzzling contest right now? [laughter]
>> I'm sorry. You're choking out right now. I almost killed Dave just now. You okay? >> Yeah. >> Do you want to Do you have a funnel? >> A funnel? >> Yeah. Hang on. [clears throat] [laughter] [cough] >> I lit I literally almost killed Dave just now.
Can you imagine you live through all your attempts at sobriety, through being tased, you know, through all the driving and all the just you did this show that was your life up until you got sober and then >> choked on a cup of coffee >> and then you choked on a cup of coffee. Can you imagine what would I all of a sudden the the tone of this podcast would change indefinitely I think to
maybe maybe God is not good. What [laughter] >> maybe have to rethink to reconsider my reconsiderations. So shifting gears before we go to something super important is our modeling careers. >> Yes, >> super important. So you you are also in the sober guys of summer calendar. >> Sober guys. Yes. I'm I'm Mr. August. Yes. >> So what what's your what's your setup? Because I I got the pumpkin thing going. So what's yours? >> Oh yeah. I heard about the pumpkin
thing. So mine is uh mine takes place at a muscle car show. Um, and there's also like So I'm on the hood of a uh of a 1974 Nova with a uh >> Wow. >> with a a weight bar. Um, and they got about a couple hundred pounds on there and greased up of course and you know pumping iron. So it's it's an action shot. >> Do you mind? Would it be weird if I You can't You can't see from waist down, right? You can't see me from the waist down right now. [laughter] That sounds very [laughter]
>> It's gonna I'll just say this. It's going to be a great calendar. [snorts] Um >> Yeah. Oh, I'm sure it does. Yeah, [laughter] >> obviously. I mean, they chose us for a reason. >> Um thank you so much for being here, Dave. I want to give a shout out to Happy Joyce and Three on the East and West Coast. Want to give a shout out to
podcast greater than yourself. So super gratitudes podcast even that's not in the book podcast by my [snorts] good friend Laura and uh and I want to uh give a special shout out to Chelsea. Maybe Dave will want to do that too. Do you want to say anything to Chelsea, Dave? >> Yes. My dogs are barking. >> Okay, we'll come back to you. >> Absolutely.