Let's open with a moment of silence followed by the serenity prayer. God grant me to accept the things I cannot change the courage to change things and the wisdom to know the difference. I'm Harvey Asher, a sexolic and my sobriety date is March 8th, 1984. Um, I used to be about six feet tall before I got into recovery. Having a lot out of me. Uh, I, um, can you read the essay purpose for us or someone at this point? They're just coming up here. Madam Sexaholic. Amen.
DSA purpose. Sexaholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength, and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover. The only requirement for membership is to desire to stop lusting and become sexually sober. There are no dues or fees for SA membership. We are self-supporting for our own contributions. SA is not allowed with any sect, denomination, politics,
organization, or institution. Does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sexually sober and help others to achieve sexual sobriety. Thank you. Thank you. Let's get to it. I'm um I'm going to start speaking a while and then hopefully Hey, Ryan. Um hopefully we'll have some time for you all to kind of share a little about some of the things that I'm going to bring up today.
Um, I really didn't know how I was going to begin this because there are so many ways to begin. Uh but I got my answer last night when a young guy with we'll say young guy but whatever came up to me to say what really helped him some months ago when I asked a group in my own fel hometown in Nashville uh how many people believed they really had a disease.
How many of you believe that your condition is like high blood pressure or diabetes or multiple sclerosis, especially MS where it will come in little increments and then go away and each time it comes and goes, it gets a little bigger, a little more or ulcers that will flare up or settle down. How many of you, and I'd like you to raise your hand, really believe you have a disease? Okay?
Because if you don't, and let me tell you, this is a great response, but if you don't, you're probably in the majority because many people who come to this fellowship have a tremendous problem with chapter five in the AA book where it says we had to let go of our old ideas. It's such a simple statement that we read day after day and we don't give it much thought. And where is it placed? It's placed in the paragraphs before it says and here are the suggestions the
steps. In other words, there are some basic requirements of acceptance prior to being able to take the steps. And the steps are our medicine for a disease. So if we can't take the steps, it's difficult to stay sober. And so we need to understand what's before the steps. And there are some keys. One says in these sections about being honest. It says we could be mentally ill and get this program, but if we're dishonest, we can't get it.
Okay? So it says being crazy is no problem in getting this program. But that honesty and then it said if you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it any length. What does any length mean? you know, what are we willing to do to get it? And then it talks about letting go of old ideas. And this fellowship, in my opinion, is so entrenched with the old idea that we're sinners, that we're bad getting good. We're not
sick getting well. I mean, what a job to help each other redo those brain circuits of going from bad to good, sick to well. And this whole concept is for one reason. Why do we get sober? I mean, why go through this? You know, we talk about masturbation. We talk about adultery. This, you know, this stuff's been going on for thousands of years. You know, like an AA, they're not prohibitionists. You know, we don't go around saying, "Oh, you better not masturbate. It's
terrible. Look what happened to you." You know, and by the way, my program in Nashville when I went blind about six years ago on one eye, they'd say, "See, I mean, how did they know?" to this concept of the disease. The disease, you know, I was deep in meditation. I have a real hopefully comfortable sobriety, but I was deep in meditation doing TM the other day. Must have been about 15 minutes into it. just clear and out of nowhere and a a nude man. I had never had sex
with him. A nude man showed up in my head so vivid. Where does that come from? How does it show up? The speaker last night was speaking about intimacy and all of a sudden I pictured a sexual thing I had done with someone 28 years ago out of nowhere. So real. What other explanation could be than I have screwed up cells circuits? My circuits are messed up. I'm a very sick man. And so why am I here? Why am I sharing? Why am I going to meetings after a lot of years? I've moved to Memphis for
about seven months. And you know, it's my priority getting to meetings and I'm not going to act out today. Can't guarantee you tomorrow, but today I don't want to act out. I'm not going to act out today. I don't want to. done my contracts. So why am I here doing this? Because this program is not about lust or sex. It's about comfort. It's about comfort. We're not prohibitionists. We're not um trying to change the world
about sexual things. We're trying to be comfortable and I cannot be comfortable if I am using the allergen I'm allergic to. It doesn't work if you're allergic to penicellin. Even if you use aylin, you're not going to feel comfortable. You're going to get a rash. You're going to get sick. So, do I accept that I have an allergy? Do I accept it?
and that if I do certain things, not that they're bad or they're good, but if I do certain things, like someone who is allergic to um peanuts and they don't check the labels on the boxes and they end up getting some peanuts and they end up being very si sick. Why are they going to be comfortable? No. So, this is about for me recognizing number one that I'm sick getting well. Number two, that my sickness is a phys is an allergy accompanied by a mental obsession.
Now, where the heck am I getting this stuff from? You know, am I just making it up? Well, you know, I'm still still have trouble making things up. You have to check out whatever I say. Read it because I'll I'll create it to my own making. But this is what the big book says. And how do we know this is what they meant? because they did not put Bill W's story first in the AA book.
It's not first. And by the way, I referred to the AA book because Roy in the SA book on a few occasions to my knowledge is alluding to the fact that he assumes we know the AA book. Okay. So, what do they do to begin the AA book? They begin with a doctor's opinion. They don't begin with Bill's revelation, his spiritual awakening. They begin with a physical allergy accompanied by a mental obsession. And I know my circuits are messed up.
There's no way that naked body would have shown up in the middle of my meditation. No way. If I had some normal circuits. Now, let's say that happens to other people who don't have this disease because you all, many of you, you're addicts going to be listening to whatever I say to prove me wrong. Okay? I do it with people who are of the opposite political parties that I am. They can't say anything right.
If I go to a denominational uh type of uh religious service in my religion, I'm going to listen and then prove everything's wrong. Okay. So here you're going to try to say but hey how you know this all doesn't make sense. I do such bad things you know how could he say it's it's just a physical allergy. But without this concept the rest of my talk is going to not work out because What is sex with self cannot be formalized.
The reason is that I have to be honest with myself to what that allergen is, what part of this issue of sex with self I'm talking about. Now, this fellowship has certain subjects and I've noticed they've broken through some of these taboo areas we don't talk about this at this conference. One subject we don't talk about is what goes on in a marriage bed. Big secret in essay. It's like we're Unix. Nobody does anything. And they if they do it, it's a pure
accident. I don't know. They don't know just how it happened. And we're just pure as a driven snow. The other taboo subject is what do couples do when they're engaged and they're getting married? Taboo subject. No one talks about what they do with each other. And the third taboo subject is what is sex with self? It's not really spoken about believe it or not. We use the term but you know a lot of people in the fellowship interpret sex with self meaning grabbing yourself
doing something with it. This is going
to be male oriented by the way. So, females, please bear with me and maybe you'll get up and translate it for us, but if you'd like and having something ejaculate out and that's what's considered masturbation to lots of people, okay, man, what goes on in this fellowship that walk the line and I don't know for we have some people here from Europe and I don't know if you have that expression walking the line going to the edge of the cliff going to the edge of the cliff
more people go to the edge of that cliff then is spoken about because it's not spoken about because it's not the person says I haven't ejaculated so it's not sex with self and I asked Roy some years ago oneonone you know Roy when when he wrote this it's kind of vague what is sex with self what do you And he said to me, "Well, we have to be careful about dotting every eye because then it becomes like a religion if I remember the conversation right.
And so I have to keep that in mind that I cannot define for you other than that being very obvious part Okay, I can't define it for you, but I could say what what do you do that ultimately negates your comfort? And what is it you do that sets off the reaction, the chemical reaction in the brain that becomes what we call craving that sets up the phenomenon of doing it again out of powerlessness.
You know, I laugh about it sometimes, but you know, powerlessness to me is a concept of, man, if I got to go to the bathroom, I could really hold off, but if I start going, I can't stop at midstream. Okay. Now, therefore, what is it? I came into the program before we had the essay book. Roy had written some of these in loose sheets. We had a brochure. There were two of us here in Nashville. We didn't know anyone else. Um, and so I didn't know anything about what
to do or not to do or whatever. And I'll never forget it. I was in a health in a uh spa alone in a shower room and I said, "Oh, I think I'll let myself get aroused without physical touch." And after it happened, I said, "Hey, this isn't right for me. This isn't going to work." And I put a definition on that day. That's what hopefully we mean by progressive victory over lust. And again, this is male oriented, not on purpose, but that's my experience. Strength and hope. So,
so what is it we're saying? We're saying that an erection isn't the issue because erections a lot of times are reflections of the REM sleep, what what level sleep you're in. So the erection isn't the issue. It's yet the erection is the issue because their word motive is before it and what do I do with it? I was so ill was I'm still so ill but I was so ill those first few years I could not meditate without arousal.
Why could I tell you? you know I'm sex poppy and I had to learn a whole lot of stuff and on this subject I want to bring this up about what is sex with self because I've been thinking about it recently what justification for a sex addict is there in ever having an erection if you're in this program other than in bed with your wife or before you go to the bathroom in the morning or something. What happens from an erection?
By the way, these are taboo subjects. No one talks about words like erection and a sexual addiction recovery program. What happens? Well, what happens are all kinds of chemicals get triggered off in the brain. That's what happens if chemicals aren't triggered off in the brain. Then how does it happen? Cuz it's regulated through blood flow. And I would imagine clitoreral issues are very similar, but I don't know that for a fact.
Okay. So what's happening? Endorphins and other chemicals are coming into the brain which then for us because we are like men who have lost our leads and can never grow new ones, a chain reaction can come. And what am I all getting at? I'm getting at that I'd say the majority of people in SA are chronic relapsers or frequent relapsers. And my assumption is they're relapsing, feeling the program isn't working, getting kind of upset, rightfully so, when in reality they've never been
sober. They're not relapsing. They've never been sober. They've never had a period of time, a detox, where their brain gets clear, where the craving phenomenon does not have to automatically trigger in because this fellowship is unbelievable for what you could get away with. in quotes. So you think you could be a voyer in this program, be looking through a window when a woman is undressing or a man or whatever, getting aroused, getting all stimulated and not have an orgasm.
and say you're silver. Now, how do I know that? I hear it time and again, not voyism, but every other issue. One issue in particular that a lot of us old-timers are not really able to even fathom this. We came in before the internet. I mean, I actually had to go downtown to the pornos, find some man or some woman or combinations that I used to do because I my disease is very advanced and go through that whole process. I could I or see some porno at the porno store had to go there.
Now you just turn on the excuse me the internet and what happens and I'll show you how unsophisticated I am about this. I finally first time the thought ever occurred to me when one of these guys who kept calling me about the internet and I said to them by the way when you're doing that stuff looking at it are you aroused and he said yeah and I said oh my god and you expect yourself I mean if you talk about Chinese tor torture.
I mean, water boarding is nothing to me probably compared to having an erection on purpose and not having an orgasm. You know, that's the perfect example of the old term for masturbation, self- abuse. So here here's this this concept of what's happening in the brain. What is sex with self? And for me a lot of concepts of sex with self is involved with a motive. Why? Why have an erection if you're not really wanting to get off in your brain? Unless it's at night or with your wife.
And you're going to say, "Well, how do you, you know, what do you do? It just happens." Well, first of all, that that has a point to it. But as my old sponsor Jess would say about thoughts, the first thought is on God. The second thought is on me. So the erection might be on God. But what do I do with that in my life? I shift the energy. Not because I feel it is sin because I feel it's evil. It's because I don't want my endorphins and my craving cycle to get triggered off.
And I move the energy. I picture the energy and I let it run down my legs into the ground or I move it up to my heart and let it out. I surrender to it. I don't fight it. Fighting it makes it worse. This disease fighting anything in this disease we will always lose this. It's about surrender and and self-examination in inventory. What What is this for? Do I feel frightened right now? I've discovered that my brain deals with fear by changing it to a sexual thought
automatically. That's my first thought. So if I'm frightened of terrorists or I'm frightened of people and coming into my home and first thought is I picture that I'm going to hit them or protect my wife. A lot of times the next thought will be gee they might want to rape me or my wife. A thought will come to my mind and I'll have to say immediately Harvey there it is. you know, fear, lust, happiness, lust, sadness, lust, whatever it is, my circuits are screwed up. I'm ill, sick.
So, it's been very important for me to define for myself my bottom line in more detail. See, I even have my sobriety definition is even based on my frequency with my wife because I was a sexually abusive husband. And if I have sex a certain amount of times beyond my bottom line, that's a loss of my sobriety. You know, going into locker rooms on purpose where men are naked is a loss of my sobriety. It's just that simple. Yeah. And then I can't fool myself about motives. There have to be certain
definite reasons. One is you're in a hotel and it has a bathroom and you go into the regular bathroom and it's a a locker room and you don't know, you know, but if you know then that's a different story. I have a part of my sobriety is that if I walk into walk into a porno shop, that's a loss of my sobriety. Unless it was because one of you all called me to pull him out and I tried to call someone else to go with me. I've had to my to my own self be true. What is sex with self for me?
Now I want to ask this question. Let's go back to the voyer. No, let's go back to the internet. You're watching T. You're purposefully going on to the site. Then you gradually build up that session till you get the site of your choice. Because it doesn't matter where you begin, you're going to end at stuff that I can't Well, one day maybe you'll hear my story. I can't tell you. There's nothing anyone's done that I probably
haven't done three times. Okay? There's a guy in but guys in Nashville know this story who would come into the our meetings and say by the way if anyone is so depressed today that you're because of what you've done in your disease and you've decided to kill yourself be sure that before you kill yourself you go to a meeting where Harvey's at say what you've done so he could tell you how he's done it at least three times before and you walk out feeling wonderfully.
But let me tell you, I hear things from what people are watching on the internet because I don't let you guys or gals, well, girls I don't talk to that much, but guys get away with this hidden language. See, in this fellowship, we've learned how to hide. We hide behind words. One word is lust. I've been lusting today. Or another word is I've had a sexual fantasy today. Or I went on the internet today. And then say, well, I don't do that. Lust. What do you
mean you've been lusting? Oh, I've been um I've been thinking about this woman. Oh, what have you been thinking about? And on and on. And if you do it with the internet, you hear things that I never knew existed. And that's tough. Okay. So if someone is purposefully looking at the internet, they're looking at it. They're going deeper and deeper in. They're getting aroused. They continue on it. What do we call that? They're by themselves. They're having an erection. What's that called? Help me.
If now if it's not sex with self, it's not it's not sex with someone else. It's not. In other words, we get these calls about what should I do with my sobriety and what should I do with this and what should I do with that? I'm okay. You know, you all call it's your sobriety. It's not going to be any any sweat off my back. You have to live with you and your disease. But I want to know what you call it. I'm I'm open to it. Maybe it's not being called sex,
but I don't know what it is. I If it's not sex with self, what is it? And towards the end, I'd like some volunteers to say what it is that's not sex with self because it's so frightening if it is sex with self and we're ignoring it. We're having people in leadership positions. We're having people in decisionmaking issues. We're having people sponsoring people. If you want what I have and are willing to go to any length to get it, well, is this what you want? And are you not drunk afterwards now?
Maybe not. But I I I believe people are. And matter of fact, I don't define their sobriety form. I I make suggestions that the next time they do it, they they call it their change of sobriety. But I've learned I it doesn't even pay almost say that there's people going to do exactly what their disease tells them to do. Unless they're actively working their program, they're just going to get hacked at the person telling them.
I'm getting more and more into trying not to help my sponsors with inventories because I've started to notice I mean I do it with them but I started to notice giving someone an inventory about what they might be doing never really works. It's when they call me and do 10th steps and say, "Hey, I've been in greed today. I've been jealous today. I've been angry today. Now, the first time I've had to be told from my sponsor and other time, you know, whatever. And we tell each other
these things. Oh, maybe that's greed. Maybe that's jealousy. But at some point, it's I who have to make that inventory, written inventory, and call my sponsor about it and say, "Wow, there's that insanity again." You know, and very rare I get a call that says, "Oh god, I am so powerless. It happened again." I'll get the call, "Oh, I was just on the internet and this and that." That term powerlessness, the disease connection never comes up because if we are powerless and I am powerless.
I am I had sex with people who had lesions on their body. I love to get them because it helps us see how insane I had sex under the table at a restaurant with this guy next to me and his wife was on one side and my wife was on the other side and we did it under the tape. Now, if that's not powerlessness, if that's not insanity, what the hell do we call it? If it's not disease, and if it were just sin or badness, why am I not doing it today? I'm the same sinner. Why am I not doing it today?
It's because I'm not in the craving cycle today. I deal with it like the plague. It drives my wife nuts at times because I'm screening my movies and I'm doing this and I'm jumping up and leaving the room and it's not because I'm a goody goodie. Let me tell you, I'm not a goody goodie. It's because I know I am powerless. Once the door opens, I can't close that door. Whether it's for my wife or my kids or my religion, I cannot close the door once it's open.
And the problem in the fellowship to me today and for me today is if I'm not careful of what is the door, what is the allergen, what is that first peanut? What is the insanity that lets me go and buy a package if I'm allergic to peanuts and not look at the package ingredients? So this whole disease concept of a physical allergy accompanied by a mental obsession is is so fundamental for me in my recovery, but it's not necessarily fundamental from what I've seen in the fellowship.
I think we're lost a lot. I shouldn't say we who how can I I know a few people but who feel this way old-timers but I'm lost with dealing with people with the internet. I'm lost. It's like its own category. It's not sex with self. It's not sex with someone else. It's not really sex because you might not be touching yourself. I don't I'm It's somewhere in in another dimension that needs to be brought into this dimension because recently I got an iPhone. It's the coolest thing ever.
I mean, I'm I'm amazed. And one day it dawned on me, my god, if I were my active disease, I wouldn't be eating, sleeping, and driving the car. I'd be dead. AIDS would have killed me. Driving the car would kill me. And for you people today, I think people are are going to just start coming up coming out of the woodwork in in being helping us know that there is recovery from internet pornography. that it is possible because you cannot assume there's not going to be a computer somewhere.
You know, I often tease people when they call and complain, "Oh, you mean I should avoid all those women?" And I said, "What are you complaining about?" 50% of the population. I do it with women, men, animals. I can't be around anybody. You know that bottle of booze you find up in the North Pole that the AA book talks about about alcoholic mentality. Sexaholic mentality. What is sexaholic mentality? How do we
get around it? we get around it. And someone recently has been sharing with me even further on this disease model and how some people are saying how many months it takes for those endorphins to get out and how if you do almost anything it triggers up again and the circuits never relearn pathways. And you know, this sounds a little scientific. And where the heck's God in all this, you know, well, God is everywhere in this,
you know. I I couldn't be here today without my higher power saying, "My God, this guy, look at him in the pornos doing what he's doing." and I love him so much. Anyway, I'm going to get him to essay. You know, the miracle of this and how my higher power is so loving and can move so many strings of whatever cosmic strings if he wants or doesn't want. that he has permitted us to learn from each other. Okay, I'm going to wind down in a few moments and then take questions. I see a hand.
And that my higher power talks to me through you. And what I learned from you is tremendous. He just, you know, my AA sponsor used to some some street person would come to a meeting and about a week later my sponsor would say quote what the street person said. And I said, "Cerry, how did you remember what this guy was a street person? They've been there once, never came back
drinking. He said, "Oh, I have to listen to every word everyone says in the meeting because I never know who God picked that day to talk to me through." Okay. And so I really haven't talked about what is sex with self very much. But I've asked a lot of questions. I wrote an article. This is like that the skit last night. I wrote an article in the there's an article in one of the essays or the best of essay talking about what is sex itself.
I wrote it some years ago. I've been really evolving from it and thinking more and more about what it means. And the way I did it then is still how I'm doing it. This is about you all. This is about bringing this topic up, getting it out of being a secret, not going not hiding behind that awful statement that we read meeting after meeting. It's awful about we shouldn't be explicit. Raise your hand. Tough shit. If you can't handle it, walk out of the room.
Walk out of the room. If you can't say it other than if it were about minors or something. If you can't say it. Now, how do we protect ourselves? B. We're very explicit at our meetings. We do the 30-day imperative. We have people with 30 days or more sobriety speaking. So, if a guy has just left a porno shop or been with a prostitute 20 minutes before and comes in and is explicit, they're drunk. And that's not good for the fellowship. And then you don't need one hand. You need every hand up.
So then everyone could leave and he's left there till he so up. But other than that, if someone has been sober for a while and we assume everyone has this wonderful intimate relationship with their sponsor, a lot of people don't have sponsors. The meetings are what they got. And so on that gr Oh, I get so passionate. It's just ridiculous. Can you imagine my wife having to live with me all these years? Um, but I'm better than I used to be and not as well as I'm going to get.
And we sure have a loving God to have produced this conference for us to give us an opportunity to talk about this stuff. So, thanks a lot. Okay. The guy back there whose hand was up originally. No. Yeah. Hit you. You were speaking Harvey and you asked what is it? If I don't use that much porn on the internet or wherever, I'm going to masturbate. I'm not going to accuse myself. But uh our literature answers
the question. I believe 192. It says the real problem for all of us, single, married, man, woman, internet, no internet from whatever lifestyle is one and the same. A spiritual misconnection. And how I'm not connected to the one who has all power when I'm on the internet or looking at a magazine or have fantasy in my head about the woman down the hallway.
Absolutely. And then it goes on to say, "Better to acknowledge what we really are than hide behind the bag of a sobriety date, cheat ourselves, and threaten our union with one another." And that's I go to AA as well, and they hammer on the physical allergy, and it's the first drink that gets you drunk. I make a decision in my heart to get drunk first before I drink in that image. And I don't, my sponsor is just real adamant about letting go of the lust and fantasy
in my head. even labels. If I'm trying to control what you think, even if it's not sexual, that's fantasy. I'm getting high off of your approval. And that approval, attention, affection stuff is what leads to the sexual stuff. Thanks. Because you brought up something that I wanted to mention. And in AA, they say it beautifully. Oh, the person's sober in alcohol, but he's on a on a marijuana maintenance program.
And um and I'm so glad you brought this up because I really did not want to sound like what I am a militant in many ways but sexual thoughts are not permitted in my head. The first thought is on God and then I do poor guys in this program I sponsor I don't sponsor in Nashville. They get calls from me during the day. Hey, I just had this image. I cast out images the second or whenever they come in because I cannot give myself a motion picture in my head.
It's gone. I'm too sick. I could have a two-dimensional photograph that happens to come in. I sponsor a guy for 20 years at least. His sobriety definition is he can't have sexual fantasies. Okay, good. That's it. Thank you. Yes. Harvey Dave Jacksonville, can you can you give a couple examples in your experience where there's been what I would call a progressive revelation? What I'd like I can but you know I think these answer things is not necessarily good for my ego. So I because I continue
to be center. So I'd like Mike to come up if you would. You read my mind, Mike. And can you take some of these questions or give us some response about what your feelings of sex itself is? I'm Mike Sexaholic. Um, wonderful talk. I mean, I've heard it before, but it is developing and it it's it's very very important. uh your
question. Uh one of the things that some of the guys at St. Teresa's in Chicago are starting to do and I'm not sure how conscious they are of the allergy, you know, the the concept, but they're
they're figuring it out. they may just be using different words is people are beginning to say and I'll use an example of one member who we do a short share at the beginning of every meeting which would basically say the nature of your addiction how long you're sober and um what this guy says and I won't remember all of it is he says uh for me just getting a woman in the car whether she's a hooker or not jogging in certain communities he's is a jogger, but there are certain places he
knows if I'm jogging here, it ain't exercise I'm looking for, you know. Um, and I don't know, Pete, if you can remember the rest of it, but this particular member has a list. And in his short chair, he says, and here's what he doesn't say. He doesn't say, um, this is in addition to the sobriety definition because a lot of people say it that way, and that's wrong. What he says is, "For me, this is the sobriety definition or something like that. For me, the
sobriety, here's what he said. For me, the sobriety definition includes not getting a hooker or any other woman in my car, whether we act out or not." That's his exact quote. Um, not jogging in certain communities. And he's got more. Um, I think, you know, Royy's point is we don't want to get nitpicking that every time you have a sexual thought, did I lose my sobriety? Cuz we're all obsessive enough. We'll drive each other nuts for the rest of our lives. But on the other side of that extreme is
what Harvey's talking about. Well, then therefore, anything goes as long as I haven't physically touched myself, which is also absurd. And so what we're learning uh is, you know, if a guy's a newcomer and he's not masturbating or she's not masturbating, that's great. But then you begin to hear the patterns of what's
going on in people's heads. And after a while, you start to say, you know, Joe or whoever, uh, I know you you're saying you're sober and and you know, but you've been around 6 months now and you keep reporting that you're spending time on the internet and um I don't know, Harvey and I probably have a disagreement about how explicit you get in the meeting, but certainly with the sponsors and after the meeting and in the conversation, um, we would say, "What do you mean?" And then he's
telling you, "Oh, I look at pornography." And my first question is always, "For how long?" A few minutes. Nobody wants to tell you. What does a few minutes mean? I a few minutes has meant anywhere from 3 or 4 minutes to 3 or 4 hours. One guy told me four hours. I said, "That's not a few minutes. That's 240 minutes."
So, I think what we're beginning to come to, and we don't have any answers, but is no, we don't want to nitpick about every time something pops into your head, did you lose your We don't want to sit around and talk about did you did you lose your sobriety or didn't you? We don't want to drive ourselves nuts, but at the same time, we don't want to be living lies. And hopefully as sponsors, what we can begin to do is guide people to those deeper truths about what's going on in
their hearts and in their heads. Get them to talk clearly about what that really is and get see if and and Harvey's right about one thing. If I say to Harvey, you know, Harvey, that internet thing, you want to you might want to think about including that as part of your sobriety definition. I've just set up a fight. All I can say is I don't know if that's a loss of sobriety or not, Harvey, but it looks like a duck and it
walks like a duck. And then let Harvey be the one, you know, let the spons be the one to finally figure it out. I'm just holding the mirror up and saying, you know, you keep talking about looks and glances. That's a classic looks and glances. I'm struggling with looks and glances. Well, of course I struggle with looks and glances. But what does it mean to be struggling with looks and glances? For me, it means maybe I lasted 5
seconds instead of three. But for someone else, it might mean they sat there all day staring. Well, you know, again, don't want to knit. Well, which guy's sober? Let's nitpick. Who cares? But are you for me? Here's the test. I suddenly get emotional whenever I talk about these two people. I have a 20-year-old son and a 13-year-old daughter. Here's the test. Would I without any compunction say to my 20-year-old son and 13-year-old daughter, guess what I was doing today?
Then all of a sudden, this foggess, hey, James, 20-year-old son, hey, James, I want to teach you something about sexuality. You know what I did today? I stayed on the internet for two and a half hours, but I didn't touch myself. you know, um I was at a play the other night and I've been going to this series of plays in Chicago for years, so I don't check it out cuz it's always been safe. But sure enough, nudity and then something that wasn't, but it was close enough and it was
triggering all my buttons. And who did I bring to the play? my wife, my 13-year-old daughter, and her one of her best friends whose parents trust us. Probably not. Probably not anymore. Suddenly, this moment comes and I do believe there's a God because I happen to be sitting in a seat. I'm like, "Oh, we didn't get the best seats this time because we had to change our tickets." There's a post in my way. Thank God because I knew what was coming. I didn't ha I knew what was coming. I didn't have
to wait to see it. I could sense it. And I just positioned myself so that the pole protected me and my sobriety. And as this is unfolding, I'm hearing my family. I'm not saying anything, but I'm just protecting myself behind the wall. I hear my daughter three seats down go, "Oh my god." And I hear my wife saying to me very quietly, "Don't look. And then afterward, we're in the car on the way back. Well, how'd everybody like
the play? I say my daughter's 13-year-old friend says, "Well, it was kind of R-rated." But my point is, I could have had the greatest excuse in the world. Well, I didn't know. And here I was. I didn't want to look. I didn't want to look because I didn't want to be sitting there lusting with my 13-year-old daughter three seats down and and I could go into one of my big struggles. Well, it's art, you know, and it's and it's and I I thought this isn't about whether these people should be doing the
play this way. This is about me staying sober. Uh now, I am going to write the theater and I am going to complain. Not that they did it that way, but in the thing that they send out two weeks in advance, they didn't say, "Fair warning for, you know, the people I take to this plate are either fellow recovering sex, my teenage children, or until she recently died, my 90-year-old mother-in-law, who had she not died of cancer, would have died seeing that play."
Ah, I that's where we disagree. I'm not going to say Nothing explicit here. So anyway, I I I don't know if what if I'm done or what I'm supposed to do. Question. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I have a question Harvey or Mike. Uh I'm Slava Sexaholic from Atlanta. I Oh, sorry. Come on. Use the mic. Oh, wow. Being put on the spot, I guess. Uh I'm Slava sexaholic. Uh you uh referred to alluded to your sobriety definition including your wife and for
me it's a big concern. And I've been in the fellowship for over a couple years and I get I can get a fantasy that involves my wife and and I think it the program says it's okay but I know but I have I'm kind of fuzzy about that and I have a gut feeling that it may not be okay and and uh and sometimes I get an idea that I might have to run you know away from my wife and and I'm very scared because I want to have uh I want to have a family. I have kids and I love
them. Uh, so I want to be healthy, but you know, uh, there there she is. She's just like any other woman, you know, sometimes. So, if you can elaborate on that. Appreciate it. Um, I treat the day after our intimacy like any other lust issue. If I flash anything about what happened the night before, I you treat it like any other sexual fantasy or lust thought and I work my program on it. Just because she's my wife doesn't mean when I'm not with her I could do that successfully.
Now maybe some others can't. I can't do it successfully. So that is a no no for me. replaying anything I have been intimate with my wife about. So that's my when Harvey was talking about the the things we don't talk about. I I totally agree. We don't talk much about sex or the lack thereof in marriage. And in this program you will find people who think the ideal is no sex in marriage ever because that's how you stay
lustfree. And you will find people who at the other extreme say, "Look, as long as it's with my wife, it's none of your business." Which is a great way to lust. If it's nobody's business, you're dead. You know, um I don't think this one is one sizefits-all. I just don't. I think different marriages are going to have to deal with this differently. But I do think like everything else with us, if you keep it in the light, if you do if if you talk
about it, and we don't talk. In fact, a few years ago, Harvey had me down here to talk about sex and marriage. And I don't think I knew that's what I was talking about till I got here. I probably wouldn't have come. And uh and I know and I it's probably on a tape somewhere. I I had to talk about, you know, my sex life with my wife. I will allow myself what I would call brief moments of either anticipation or memory because they don't feel lustful to me.
They don't feel objectifying to me. But on the other hand, I know where I can go with it. So after about 10 seconds, I'm like, "Okay, so you're you're looking forward to something or yeah, it's a nice memory." But I don't dwell on it. That's just me. Um, the other thing is today I rarely have a problem with the image of another person coming up when
I'm intimate with my wife. But earlier on I did and the way I worked through it and again every marriage is is is a little different but the way I worked through it is I would just say to my wife I need to stop for a minute and depending how bad it was I might get up, go to the bathroom and then come back and say I thought tonight was my night but it's not. or I might come back and now now I'm fine. Or I might just roll over for 10 seconds, say a prayer, and
say, "Thanks for the break. I'm ready to go." Um, you know, and and to just in that moment be you. That's intimacy. Whether we have sex or not, the intimacy was and I didn't have to tell her cuz I'm thinking, remember that girl we met at the restaurant? I don't have to tell her what she's not an idiot. She knows it's okay. the guy's struggling. I don't have to tell her what I'm struggling with. If it's bad enough, I'll pick up the phone and call one of you and tell you what I'm
struggling with. But I had to be honest in the moment because a lot of guys who are struggling have never had sexual intimacy. They've had sexual experiences, you know, by the thousands. They've never had sexual intimacy the way they fuel their their uh sex in their marriage so that their wives think they're okay. Talk about sick is by lusting over somebody else while they're supposedly making love to their wives. Now, you know, are they technically sexually sober or not? I don't know. I
get crazy when I get into that. All I know is it's probably not a good idea. Well, you know, I think we only had an hour. Yeah, I think so. So, we need to close, but some of us will stay around and anyone who wants to stay around if they're not moving the room, we will. So, uh, it's nice to be talking together. Yeah, it really is. Thank you. Thank you. Whose Father? Our Father, who art in heaven, be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever. Amen. Keep coming.