Ruthie's Table 4: Norman Foster

love for food and our love for each other. Fantastic. Let's talk about my favorite dish in my favorite rest

with my favorite person. Pesto. It's a classic source of Liguria, where basil grows on the hills overlooking the Mediterranean under the hot sun, and the recipe is trophere with pesto, which serves six two hundred grams of fresh basil leaves, a hundred and fifty grams of parmesan, freshly grated, half a garlic clove, peeled grams of pine nuts, two hundred millilters of extra virgin olive oil, and three hundred grams

of the pasta. So we put the basil leaves and the parmesan, the garlic and the pine nuts into a food processor, add the extra virgin olive oil, some sea salt and black pepper and bind together to make a smooth paste. Bring a large part of salted water to the boil and cut the trophya for about ten minutes. Drained the pasta and returned to the pot. Gently stir in the pesto, checked the seasoning, and serve with grated parmesan. Sounds delicious to have some? Maybe I hope it will

be on the menu tonight. So I have all the recipes and all the books. What made you? She is pesta? I can't remember when I discovered pasta, but I can remember when I discovered pasta and risotto. I was a student and I had cycled and ended up in Milan, and I associated rice with rice pudding, which was sweet and sickly and really for me, not very nice. And I discovered rice and pasta and it was just a great discovery. That was a very very long time ago. How old were you then, ah, I must have been

in my teens. And then what about when of them went to university? When you when you studied architecture, tell me about that. As a student of architecture, every vacation, after really working to raise funds, I'd be traveling either to Italy, France, classical architecture, Palladio, an interest in urban spaces, particularly in Italy, but also trips to Scandinavia, discovering the work of Hudson, for example before he won the competition

for the for the Opera house. And always there's there was the constant of the food and the drink of the of the area. So I think they were, you know, simultaneous revelations about design, architecture, food and and really a lifestyle. I guess, the discovery of of the pleasure and the

luxury of dining. Is it so interesting to tell me about a city that you visited where the architecture and the food you mentioned literally it is always fantastic, you know, the memories are of you know, the places that I would measure the public spaces, so the main square Campo in Sienna, August Square in Verona, or the short cut through the galleria in Miland that connects Las Gala to the to the cathedral, and always a kind of pavement cafe and you know, just a great synergy of of

food of public space. I wouldn't wouldn't be calling it public space then, but but it was that interest in urbanity in the city. Yeah. Again, I think is unusual because a school of architecture is much more about about the design of individual buildings and not the infrastructure of a city. But it's the infrastructure of public spaces that makes you know, it's a look out of the window here, it's your your green space, which is the focus. Um that's much more than you know as a symbol of

the river cafe than the indoor space. That's much more powerful identity and the water. So it's this little quarter that's kind of like a city in microcosm. Tell me about going to Yale and meeting Richard. Well, I'm met Richard at a full bright reception and I remember that

he was heavily bandage from a ski accident. And and then the next time, of course, was the beginning of the master's class in Yale, which must have been ninetie and the school started the first day of term, and the School of Architecture closed its premises on the last day, so it was a twenty four hour school and the Dean Paul Rudolph was quite a character and drove everybody very hard. And they were always so called charettes where

you would burn the midnight oil. And I remember that the only place that was open all night was a cafe called My Brothers, I think it was, yes, and we'd be we'd be there sometimes in the middle of the night and and discovering American American food like pastronomy sandwiches, and then I remember it being fantastic that you also

Richard often spoke about going to the Fourth Seasons. Oh yes, the Four Seasons restaurant at the base of the Seagram building, which was Miss vander Rose still enduring bronze early classic skyscraper. Must have been the late nineteen fifties, I guess, and the base of that building was the restaurant that Philip Johnson and he did together with this extraordinary sculpture over the bar, and originally the rockco paintings in the pool

room sadly long gone, the pool in the center. Absolutely classic restaurant, I mean, breathtaking interior and I remember really very classic menu and that was I mean to go there for a drink on an excursion to New York with Richard with Jim Sterling or whatever. And I remember Jim surreptitiously pulling the ashtray and sliding it into his the kind of pocket of his coat. And at the end of the drinks, when he was given the bill, the waiter said, oh, by the way, this figure here,

that's the cost of the extra. But that was That was quite a treat to That was a perfect melding of architecture and incredible marriage of just a great space, amazing taste, classic furniture. I remember Philip had his office in the in the sugrum, and he could have his the table of his regular table in the corner and hold forth hold court. That was he teaching at Yale.

Did you know him? He was a visiting critic. A great thing about Paul Rudolph You would bring together people who would not necessarily see eye to eye with his architecture the other way around, Um, but consciously bringing descent to bear on you know, those of us who were who were students at that time, we were real beneficiaries of that. I mean, it was an incredible combination because you had Paul Rudolph Um and for the second half,

Serge Shamayah, the European Russian sort of emigrant. You had Vincent Scully as the historian, and coming at it from those different angles we were. We were very privileged and also interesting that that Philip Johnson invited students, you know, to come and have lunch at the fourth seasons sometimes yes, yes, and and I remember one amazing crit and the crit

was a theatrical event. When you presented your design one after the other and you had the the whole school would crowd into the room and there was a sense of anticipation and theater. I mean, it was a little bit like the arena, you know, with a bear pit. And I remember Richard and I did a scheme together that was pretty controversial because it hadn't happened before, the idea of two people coming together to do a joint presentation.

And in the middle of it, Philip said something like, well, this model is great, but I don't know what these buildings are doing in the middle of this spine. I really think they should come off. And he grabbed the model. He grabbed the offending buildings in the middle of this circulation spine with the zigga outside the side of it and through it through and Paul Rudolph said, you're so right.

I've been telling the two of them, but they never listened, remember saying afterwards, and actually they were both right, Yes they were right, but it was there. It was like a real cut on trust and good times. But when you think of theater when you go to a restaurant, do you look for the drama of a restaurant? Do

you choose restaurants or so what do you look? Think we're attracted to being together and in a way that again the pandemic has has magnified that and made us realized the privilege and the luxury are being able to come together. So it is the atmosphere of a communality of people having a shared sense of of occasion and that can be That can be very modest cafes, b stros where you might be sitting on a bench or

just under you know, the shade of a tree. I mean it sounds corny and romantic, but um, but you know genuine places. So early life, tell me about Manchester. Did your mother cook? Your father cooked? My mother cook? But it was the classic baked beans on toast, or it would be fish and chips from a fish and chip shop. It would be a roast on Sunday's. Sunday's was a special day and I'd go around to the corner shop to get mustard powder and I remember making

that to go with the with the beef. That was that was a special day. Did you make it or did your mom? My mother? Your mother did? Was she working full time? Was? What do you think? Food was something you put on the table? Later she worked, but at that time, my father, I think this was a time during the during the war and rationing and so

far far removed. Yeah, I was saying that. I out with Paul McCartney, who probably is the same generation, and he described growing up in Liverpool and very much the same kind of food, which is, you know, came out of the war, It came out of poverty, it came out of isolation. As you say, yes, I can. I can remember my my mother discovering dried eggs which came from America and you whipped them with this powder, this bright yellow powder in a brown greaseproof package, and and

fruit were scarce. I mean if you got a tangerine, that was a real treat, I mean, very very special. And I remember when the after the war when the shops opened Inqueues for sweets. Sweets were like a rare delicacy. And remember Hershey bars, where it somehow found their way through, you know, through children and friends of g I s who were stationed nearby. Were you hungry, No, I don't think.

I never remember being hungry. So I think that rather like Paul that you're describing, I think one maintains an appreciation of of large if because it was also out of very you know, desperate conditions of you know, a fashioning of the war. I remember the Russian book as if it was Yes, what was it like? It was Kopen's was a government document. It's a powerful image and

really quite symbolic. Yeah. And when you were growing up, were you interested you think, even though you were deprived of the of the kind of exciting food from the can, did you think about it? Did you think that food could taste a than the Remember a bike ride which was I must have been sixteen, and I was with a friend and this was the first time out of Manchester.

And it wasn't just out of Manchester, it was taking a train to London, crossing the Channel, and I remember the first meal in France It was in a very humble cafe and I remember this friend and myself automatically as a reaction we were served dinner and asking for the salt and pepper, because that was a ritualistic you know, whenever food was served, you automatically sprayed it with salt and pepper. It was and I remember the look of

absolute horror the proprietor serving the food. We have already added and that was interestingly, that was a turning point. When do you think that you really discovered what food could be on that trip and then did you continue, yes, subsequent trips and perhaps also a taste for more exotic food because as a student in Manchester, I remember the only affordable food which was which was interesting was Indian food. So I was a student at Manchester. It was really

side street Indian. Again, quite humble Indian restaurants, but good food. Would you ever go out with your parents for a meal or was that really Yeah? I remember going to a coffee shop in Manchester which was called the Cardoma and was very dark wood and kind of modernist curves. That was a rare occasion to take a tram or a trolleybus into central Manchester and that was. That was a very special treat. So it was before architecture school. Oh, yes,

that was way before I was really discovering. Yeah, you sought out a coffee shop that was beautiful architecture, very very strong and touching memories of that, Yes, going that? Did you go often? What was it a special once in a blue moon? As when you couldn't eat out or afford restaurants and you wanted to eat as? Did you learn to cook? Did you decide if I can't afford to eat out, I'm going to try to eat No. I mean, Elena will reminisce about the only time that

I made a meal was spaghetti and pesto. But I think that was such an exception that it's been imprinted on her memory. But I remember, and I was so happy when you chose pesto, because I do remember, and it probably was it was a contrabasset in Wiltshire And so what did that have been in the early eight in the kitchen and yeah, I counted the league. Yes, I came down and I said, Nor, what are you doing?

And you were going n seven hundred and he said, well, I found a recipe that requires um, you know sort of twenty basil leaves for pesto. But we're eight people, so I have to count down a hundred and sixty sixty leaves of basil. I said, okay, we also could possibly weigh ten leaves and then multiply it. But we sat there and the two of us, you know, and I thought, this is a man who really cares about,

you know, the end result, getting it right. And then I remember once also in your your house on the in the penthouse and overlooking at the river, we were talking about I think you were helping me with what how to design in the River Cafe cookbook, and I came over to see you and we were talking about it, and and then we decided to cook a recipe together, and I could really see you in the kitchen, and I don't I wonder why you don't cook more, because

there maybe that's another life, still, maybe living hope. Very often they'll say that a city has a great food culture, and that's because a lot of restaurants have just opened and there's a lot of young chefs working there and

people are going to restaurants. But I think that and I wonder if you agree that if you go to a city like Paris, or you go to Milan, the taxi driver can tell you how to cook at sea bass and the boulangerie will not sell bread, you know, after eleven o'clock for lunch, and then you have to go back and fourth for dinner. And that seems like a deep culture of There are wonderful places in Spain where the food is really a cult and it's a

very male. Tell me about what do you mean. I'm just thinking of parts of northern Spain where that gastronomic tradition really permeates society and everybody is you know, lives it as a as as a way of life. But you're absolutely right about the the taxi driver. And I always remember you and it totally told me about a taxi driver in Paris where he was saying, you know something like I lived to eat. And I always remember

your your quotation on that. And I think when you're in Um, in some moretts, when you're in in Martha's vineyards, when you're in Madrid, do you always have the food of that culture? Absolutely? Yes, I think we enjoy the differences, we enjoy the What is special about a location, a place, um, a quarter in a in a city or a street, or a particular shop or a specialty. I think that becomes increasingly more significant as the world gets flatter and more uniform. So I think that that pursuit of the

of the local is more and more special. And when you know that you're going to Madrid, are you what are you excited about eating in Madrid? Um? It's I guess it's the in Madrid. It is the total change of tempo and work pattern. So I enjoy that shift where the working day is longer and later, and the restaurant is nine o'clock, is is early. I mean you're

lucky if the restaurant is yeah at that time. So um, so everything is later, and I enjoy that change of pace and they wake up in time to go to work. That's what I'm really in love that you can eat out at midnight and still get up and go to the office. But when you travel, and you do travel, you often fly your own plane, don't you. You fly and you've been a pilot again your adventure. I remember having a friend in those days that was actually flying.

Planes were so exciting. Remember various places we did, we did, we got when I flew a twin Piston Navajo. Remember I remember we did. So when you're flying a plane, do you eat while you're in the cockpit or do you eat before you go? Or do I guess it depends on the length of the flight. But do you it a certain diet to certain types of food to be alert? It's not that long ago that that was a lifestyle, but that's changed as flights have got longer, and I've tended to take a back seat in the cabin.

But but when I was immersed in that world, I just as I do now as we move as a family, just automatically going to the time zone that we're flying into. So um so you know, if we arrive at dinner time, it's dinner time. We might have been through five or six or more our time change. But so just going immediately into the tempo of the place that you're arriving at.

I think that's also a way of life. And you're an athlete, when you when you compete in the marathon, skiing or or biking, do you have a diet that you adhere to, do you have a certain No, just enjoy and enjoy everything. Yeah, sometimes to access that's good. Okay, So my My last question of food, is you know something that you've it's an adventure, if it's family, if it's a connection, which you and I certainly have had. Food is also comfort. What would be your comfort food?

I think it's where we started. I think it's pasta and pesta. Thank you, Norman with good cheese wine, Pasta, pesta, cheese and wine sounds good and friendship. Thank you, Norman. Thank you. To visit the online shop of The River Cafe, go to shop the River Cafe dot co dot uk. River Cafe Table four is a production of I Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favor rit shows.