Welcome to River Cafe, Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and Adamized Studios.
Just the two of us.
Rathie, I know so nice. We should actually tell everyone that we're sadly for me very far apart. I think I looked it up the other day. While we three thousand, ninety.
Three, two hundred and something is miles miles.
You're in Ottawa and I'm in London. Mark is the United Nations Special Envoy for Climate Action, the UK Prime Minister's Climate Finance advisor, and the former Governor of the Bank of England. Is also a really good cook.
Okay, can you just give me the go command when you're ready and then I'll start.
Okay and a one and a two and three go.
Hello. I'm Mark Carney and i'd like to read. Sorry, I'm going to start again, Ruthie, sure, because I don't want to read. I want to tell you about how to make torte dicapri. The ingredients start with three hundred and fifty grams of blanched white whole almonds. Ideally, if you're Ruthy from Andalusia, a sustainable farm, there three hundred and fifty grams of dark chocolate at least eighty five percent cocoa solids, two hundred and fifty grams of unsalted
butter and make sure it's soft. Two hundred and fifty grams of castor sugar, something we didn't have when I was growing up. And five eggs and make sure you separate them normally. It takes me a few goes to do that. Preheat the oven to one hundred and fifty degrees, so this is going to be a slow bake butter around a twenty centimeter cake tin. Line the base with greaseproof paper and something I often forget. Then you need
to separate the almonds into halves. Finally, grind half of them in a food processor, put that into a bowl, and then coarsely grind the other half and include the chocolate with that, cream the butter and sugar till it's pale. At the egg yolks one by one, and then add all of the ground nuts and chocolate in a separate bowl. Whisk the egg whites until they form soft peaks. Fold half of those egg whites into the chocolate mixture to loosen, and then the remaining egg whites, and then you're pretty
much ready. Now you'll notice that there's no flour in this cake. One of the unique aspects of Tortie dicapri, but it's part of its genius. Baked for forty five minutes or intel set Tortia dicapri by Ruthie Rogers.
Oh, thank you, Mark. Interesting as I was listening to you read sound so much like a cook and explaining it so clearly, I think I think about the torture dicapri. Which is also interesting, is that you do use very bitter chocolate, don't you. It's kind of it is a very dark chocolate. I mean sometimes I think when we used to make it in the very beginning, we even made it with one hundred percent unsweetened chocolate.
I think you did because one of your books you have a handwritten note and you used to have to source it from used to have to source it from America Baker's.
Unsweet and chocolate. Did you ever have that in Canada? Baker's.
Well, that's you know interesting. Yes, my mother used to use Baker's on sweetened chocolate and she used to melt it, you know, boil the water and put a cup with the bakers in the cup and then it would melt in the in the cup and it would be added to the to the baking.
That's interesting because I was talking to your brother Sean last night and we were talking about your mother. He said that she grew up in a town that you couldn't get to by road, and that you'd have to wait for the boat to come in with supplies, and that she was really passionate and really good baker.
What did she make No, that's right, I mean she to go back to the start. She grew up in a town called Britannia Beach, which is a spectacular location on what's called how Sound. So if anyone listening has ever gone to Whistler, oh yeah, there's now a highway that goes through Britannia Beach. It's an abandoned mining town, but at the time it was isolated, as you say, there was a boat that would come once a week,
but just a beautiful, beautiful spot. And then moved to the Northwest Territories with my father and that's where I was born. So that's in effectively the Arctic of Canada. And a great cook and a great baker, as you suggest, as my brother obviously told you, and just a huge variety of baking, from cakes to pies, to cookies as we would call them, you know, wide range of biscuits. And I was when I was younger, I was an enthusiastic baker, inspired by my mother. So maybe that's partly
why I gravitated to the Georgia DiCaprio. My baking muscles have atrophied a bit, so I had to go to the simpler. But there was one thing. I'll tell you, there's one thing about what's not really baking, but there's one Almost all the baking was comfort food. I found it tremendously comforting and enjoyable. Except there would be mornings in Edmonton where I grew up and I'd come upstairs. My room is in the basement, and I'd come upstairs, and if my mother was making that was that was
a bad sign. I had a sort of Pavlovian response to that, because it meant it meant that it was at least minus thirty zero. That's when she that's when she would make oatmeal. And so I've now overcome my aversion to oatmeal, but it took it took decades.
So did you grow up with good food apart from.
Baking pretty traditional sort of variants of meat to veg I remember growing up. I mean, it's it's not why I became a central bank Maybe it is why I
became a central bank correction. But there being a period of time during you know, the inflation years of the mid seventies, where there were a lot of casse roles in my life and sort of combinations of things which are probably not recipes that are still used today for a good reason, but they managed to stretch you know, ground beef or other things a little farther which made sense at the time.
Your house in London, I think it's be safe to say that the largest room in the house was a kitchen. Yes, And I'd walk into your house there would be either one of your four children or you or all of your four children, or somebody in the kitchen, and there was a sense that the kitchen was the place to be.
Yes, that ability if you can manage it to have a kitchen and space in the kitchen for others to be there, and whether they're reading a book or answering emails or I remember when two of our girls were younger, one of their favorite things actually right up until last year was they had the thing that they would do.
I don't know why. They would do it immediately after dinner called airplane, which is you know, one of them would lie on the ground and put her feet up and the other would balance on that and they'd either do that or immediately after very large meal, go out and bounce on the trampoline, which is the kind of thing you can do when you're twelve. But you know, not the wrong side of forty and was.
It very different than your work life in terms of being the governor of the Bank of the meals become very formal.
You know, that bit has changed a fair bit over the years. So there is a formal dining room at the bank and you know, when August visitors are there either you can have a formal lunch or a dinner.
When you have conferences, you know, a dinner in the what's called the courtroom, which is an absolutely spectacular room, Sir John Sowne, the inspired Room, and that brings the full majesty of the Bank and the history of the United Kingdom to bear and it's you know, particularly if there's a G seven meeting or something like that, have it there. So that's great you know, there is a very good cafeteria at the bank on the sixth floor of Threadneedle Street, which most people eat in the old
and the new. I guess which for many institutions in the UK is is the right way to do it. You want to keep, I think, and certainly it's an outsider. I wanted to keep some of the traditions. But it wasn't the case of, you know, going for lunch every day in the state rooms and you know, finish it off with port, although there were many days which I wish I had.
Sneak down there. It's also interesting point of people about working and food. You know. One of my favorite stories about you was when one of my granddaughter's friends asked you who was the most important person you'd ever met, and you said the Pope. And you said that you'd had lunch with the Pope, and I was wondering. I never asked you, do you remember what you ate? What would the Pope have for lunch?
Well, we were in the heart of Rome. I think it's interesting the question. I don't know the answer to this. I suspect what the pope has for lunch, or at least this pope has for lunch is much simpler than what the Pope or the Vaticans served at the lunch that I attended, because he wasn't originally scheduled to come to this lunch, and it was the day before the World Cup final between Argentina and Germany, so it would
have been twenty fourteen, I guess. And of course he's Argentinian, and the previous pope is who's still alive, is German. So that was, you know, and he showed up. The Pope showed up at the lunch, and you know a bit of the conversation about that. But it was an elaborate lunch. You know, several courses and there was a pasta course and I think a fish course is the main,
then cheese and dessert. But he told he told this parable at the at the start of the lunch, the Pope says that, look, we're going to have a nice meal together. It's very important sharing, and we're going to start the meal with wine. And wine is many things. It has a bouquet, a color, taste that compliments the food and alcohol which enlivens our senses, and it enlivens all our senses effectively. But we will finish the meal with and grap is alcohol and it's wine distilled. And
I think this is an interesting analogy. But then he makes the analogy which says, and humanity. People are many things. They're rational, they're passionate, they're curious, they're altruistic, they're self interested. The market is one thing, so he means the market economy.
It's one thing. It's self interested. Your job and then he points to everyone who I was at a conference with a very wide range of people from business and finance, and he points to all of us, sixty odd people who were at this lunch, and he says, your job is to turn the grappa back into wine, to turn the market back into humanity, and he sits down.
When we met in Tuscany, there would be times of the day where we just couldn't find you because you were running, and you would disappear for hours. I remember one part of the beginning of your day, which was drinking a whole leader of water, which I still tried to do because you know, you told me that. I think that it was Jeff Bezos who.
Told you the other way around. Ruthy, it was nothing, It was nothing until I told him. I'll tell you. It was my friend Nikolai Arens who told me this, and he's a chemist, very accomplished guy, and he told me the most important thing for cognitive functioning is to drink a lead of water, you know, first thing in the morning, because whatever whatever you've eaten or drank the night before, your brain dehydrates overnight. So this helps. And
I began doing this. I happened to I'm not like super close to Jeff Bezos, but I mentioned it to him when I saw I was on a hike with him.
Where was that.
It was in Switzerland. Actually, I mentioned it to him, and then I saw him about ten years later, and he said remarkably, he said, the guy's got to get memory said, he said, Mark, I think of you every morning when I drink water, which is fair because I do think of Nikolai every morning. And now I think of you, Ruthie, and I wonder if you're I think of you.
And now everyone listening to this that we're all going to be super cognitive.
Yeah, that's right. I'm going to all.
Things of each other. So well, there's quite a lot of time to think when you're drinking that much water. Is it that so you're still starting your day with water, and then do you have do you start writing right away? I was thinking about whether you could describe your working day when you were writing this extraordinary book value building a better world for all.
I mean, I'm most productive, as I suspect many people are, in writing in the morning and a real premium on getting up. Ideally and most mornings, certainly during the lockdown, meditate for fifteen twenty minutes, water right for a couple of hours before eating, and ideally I left when I finished writing the day before the work in mid thought if you will almost mid paragraphs so you have something
to pick up when you start writing. Yeah, it's slightly I found it tough if you finished a chapter and then a blank page issue as opposed to restart my mind on it?
Is that something unique to you or a lot of it? I never that's interesting.
I mean, I'm slightly embarrassed to call myself a writer, and I guess I do.
I've written a book.
I've graduated. You quickly moved me on from being baker in this conversation.
We'll go back to the baking for sure. By that time, is everybody out and about and you have breakfast by yourself or do you make it yoursel?
Yeah, I would tend to make myself a granola some fruit cappuccino.
You are talking all the time about values, values and food and climate, how we're going to feed everyone and still be sustainable. Is that part of your concern right now?
In terms, I think there's a few things that come out of that. One is, you know, I've always found I mean, you know, the provenance of all food at the River Cafe, and you've researched it and in most cases visited you know, whether it's your example of the almonds, and I know we've had long conversations about the you know, the olive oil and the tomatoes, and I mean and
on and on and on. And that's important because the connection, the connection that comes with that, and the understanding that comes with that, and the and in many cases the history that comes with the methods of productions and the
values that come from the people. So there's that. Then the big issue which you're alluding to, which is on climate, which is that around twenty percent or so of greenhouse gas emissions come from from agriculture and land use, and a substantial proportion of that is you know, could be reduced through regenerative agriculture, through reforestation, through different methods, different foods as well. And the reality with climate change is
there's there's no one simple solution to climate change. There's no one silver bullet, and there's many things that do need to change, and part of it is to ensure that we have sustainable agriculture, that we have sustainable methods, and that the that as the world, you know, we hope, as the world becomes more equal and people progress around the world, that we can not just feed everybody, but we can feed everybody in a sustainable way into a
high standard. And that requires knowing where the food comes from, how it's prepared, sourcing locally as much as possible, obviously, and having the balance. And you know, we have a long way to go on that, but a much greater awareness and certainly you find I know with your with
your grandchildren. I find with my children and their friends in acute awareness of these issues and a passionate about them that you know gives one hope for change and an important journey that we're all going to be on.
What do you look for in a restaurant? Do you love restaurants? What do you love?
You look for a variety of things. I like simple. I like simple and open as a restaurant, so I don't like sort of dark and you know creviced restaurants so much. I like simple and open. I think influenced a bit. I spent a year in Japan, so that, you know, kind of reinforce some of this. And I do like when even I can tell the quality of the ingredients and the preparation, the sort of slow cooking that you know, brings out the intensity of the flavors.
I like vibrancy in a restaurant. I like hearing the sort of yeah buzz if you will of a restaurant.
Was there a time when you would go into a restaurant here people would stop you what people want to ask you about? Or would they interrupt your meal? And you would they ask you about when all that was going on? Did you feel that it wasn't private that you did you sort of grass yourself for people? I mean, I saw what happened, and the reason I do is I remember walking down a restaurant with you, and people definitely wanted to reach out.
People would trip me as I was.
Yeah, they know they were they were excited, but people eating the River Cafe were never want to trip you.
That was one of the unusual things I think during the period that he Look, it's never a good when central bankers are more prominent, because it means that there's deep problems in the financial system or the economy. But given that circumstance, I mean, I yes, I was recognized virtually everywhere I went and quite often stopped. And that was that took a fair bit of getting used to and you know, accepted, and.
You were able to eat. I think we try and we try and protect you know, as much as possible because you are I mean, you know, there is the public nature of a restaurant and then the very private nature of the table. So you just go to a
restaurant for the comfort and the connection. And I think that comfort with your mother's cooking and connection with you know, the times you and I have spent in places and all different types of cooking and making zucchini flowers and on the grill with Luigi and the Fiorentinas, and the fact that you're so far away from me now and we're connected by a conversation about food ingredients and eating and then the comfort of that, you know, the comfort of being able to see you on my screen and
to talk to you about food and the memories that we have. And so I was thinking in terms of comfort is talking about food, comfort is eating food. And I was wondering for my last question to ask you, what would your comfort food be?
Comfort food? Okay, can I just say one thing before I say that? Which is that? So I mentioned my Pavlovian response to oatmeal, which was negative, my Pavlovian response to if you're at Diezuka, you know zucchini flowers and yeah, Luigi's fioran tina, this amazing thick state is absolutely the opposite. I think, I think absolutely heaven and that whole ritual around both of those is an extraordinary thing and a
connection comfort food. I say my comfort food is pasta palmodoro, and not just because I'm on your podcast, but the way you make it, because it combines exactly what I like. It is a simple recipe, very few ingredients. It takes, what does it take? It probably takes two hours to prepare the sauce. You have to cook the onions for a long time till they dissolve in the olive oil, and then you add the tomatoes and then cook it
and reduce it down to so it's both things. Yeah, got garlic, and then it's combined with the pasta, and it's so good. And you know that every time I come into your restaurant, I look at the venue and I you know, I pick out a mane and I pick out you know, it's something for the dessert, et cetera, and then I say, can I have the pasta palmondorow And the answer is yes.
The answers always is.
That is totally comforting and just a final thing which if I may, to bring it all full circle, which is the other day you and I had a lovely.
Zoomah to celebrate the publication of your book and the friendship.
And I seem to recall that some of the guests took comfort in the gronies. But our two daughters, Cleo and Tess, who are the two home with us now, they made that's right, River Cafe, and I didn't know they were going to do this, but they made River Cafe pasta palmodoro, including the homemade pasta, which it was a perfect comfort combination. So yeah, that's pretty good.
Well, there we are connection, comfort and a guest Thank you Mark, Thank you Ruth. To visit the online shop of the River Cafe, go to shop Therivercafe dot co dot UK.
River Cafe Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and Adamized Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.