Ruthie's Table 4: John McEnroe

Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and Adami's Studios.

Summer in London has ripe strawberries, green grass in the parks and skies that are at last blue. The city fills up with visitors, many here for Wimbledon. Last July, I went to a dinner with people well known in the world of theater, politics, movies, art and television. At around ten thirty the doorbell rang and John McEnroe entered the room. Everyone stopped talking. Over the years, I've witnessed in the River Cafe the spell binding effect an athlete can have. None of us can do what they do,

Really very nice intro.

Thank you, thank you for coming. It'd be nice if you begin to read a recipe.

I do love Italian food, so I'm gonna try it. Yeah, that's my favorite food.

Pantala amatrianae is the dish that I'm going to read to tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil, two hundred and fifty grams nine ounces of pancetta, two dried red chilies, Get a little spice, one red onion, two tablespoons eight hundred grams of tin tomatoes, tin plum tomatoes, three hundred grams of penney, one hundred grams of freshly grated pecorino pecorino. Okay, heat the olive oil in a large frying pan, Add

It's as sweat. Okay, sweat, I know what that means.

It is, yes, sweat well. It means that you don't want it to brown, you want it to soften.

Add the tomato, stir well. Simmer for thirty minutes until the sauce is very thick. Bring a large saucepan of salted water to the boil. Cook the penne until cook but still firm, which is known in Italian as aldente. Drain the penney and add to the sauce. Mix well,

I know I'm not really now, but I was then.

I don't have a lot of great memories in my childhood, but that doesn't mean it was bad. It means that there was a loving family, a mom who took care of me. God wrest her soul. My dad as well, that always believed in me.

Did your mother cook?

My mother did cook.

Here's the thing, She wouldn't allow us to leave the table till everything was eaten. She grew up during the Depression, so didn't have a whole lot, but she wasn't super poor, but she felt that we needed to finish what was on our plate. We had to have liver once a week our month because we were Catholic, and we had to have fish, which I hated, and liver, which was even worse. I felt like I was going to throw

You have to finish this. You're a kid, You're like, really, I have to finish this.

Do you think maybe it's because maybe she's you have to finish your to finish the dessert, you have to finish.

So, you know, I was a bit. They used to have four sizes when I grew up. There was small, medium, husky, and large. I was husky. I was a bit husky.

I remember husky.

So it dawned on me when I went to college that, oh, I could sort of eat whenever I want and I don't have have to eat what I don't want.

So were they miserable meals around the table? Did you've always dread?

No, I didn't have miserable meals.

Great meal, but the experience because just.

Once once a month, you know, or once a week, it was it was tough. We didn't get the type of fish and chips that you got in England. Say that would have been more bearable, heavily fried with a lot of ketchup.

Yeah. So did she work during the day?

You know, she was a nurse, an operating room nurse when I became probably around twelve. I think she retired from that because she had she I had two younger brothers, we had three kids. My dad was a lawyer, so she sort of took care of us at home and we didn't have anyone cooking for us except her.

It's hard work.

It is hard work, you know.

I wish I had been more appreciative at the times get fit food.

Did you all do the dishes afterwards? Do you think did you all have to do?

Well?

See, my mom was like the very clean house, so we didn't really have to do the dishes. I mean we probably just stuck him in the sink and we didn't have to make our bed, which is sort of maybe that's why I got spoiled so young.

One of the reasons.

Yeah, so Bill times at the macrone House. They were fun.

Generally it was a loud dinner table. You know, my parents are very loud, so, you know, it was definitely a shock going to London when I was eighteen because people were very polite and you know, we had to be a certain way, and beer was very hot and it was in a you know, a wood barrel or something like what the hell is wrong.

With this is that when you were playing when you when.

You first time I went to London was I was eighteen, so it was sort of these in seventy seven, so that was like the punk sort of revolution, you know. So I was walking down the King's Road for the fro, I'm like, oh my god, these people are crazy. But then I started realizing that they were sort of like we were both. They started calling me a punk for tennis. I'm like, wait a minute, I'm you know, have you

Work to do. But you know, some of what they were espousing was.

Not all that different than what I was thinking, you know, sort of rebelling against that felt unfair.

I thought, you know, can I raise my hand and say, you rebuild against what was unfair?

That's what I believe, That's what I'll tell them. Yeah, but.

I'll admit I went over the line on a couple of occasions, maybe a couple of hundred.

But at the same time, it was.

Because I believed that our sport should be viewed differently than it was and even is now. You know in this you know, upper class have to behave a certain way. I think that's a bunch of bologney. I never believed that I wanted to be thought of. It was the same way that they look at what you call football. Well you're American also, but you've been there since seventy in the seventies, I believe.

But we call soccer, they call football.

I thought, you know, in the rugby field, they're not saying hello, how are you out there? And our football field or whatever sport it is. So that's always been an uphill battle. So I take pride in trying to change the sport. What I believe was for the better, but some people may differ with that.

And you refused to play in South Africa? Didn't you?

Thank you for saying? That was my probably the proudest decision I ever made, you know.

And I think I just remember being with our friends and saying, this kid, you know in Wimbledon is talking about what's not right, but his political values, his social values are so correct, and there weren't many players who were doing that. Did you ever play? Did you ever go to Soethwies you?

No? I did, only when they ended on apartheid. And I believe that the reason that I ended up meeting Nelson Manll on my first trip, where he rudely he said, I wish I would have given a million dollars if we had a tape of this.

But he said to.

Me when I walked into his house that he lived in, it's an honor to meet you.

And I'm like, he's not.

Talking to me, because that's about what I was going to say to him. Yeah, and he was the most beautiful man I ever met. Well, just his hand it felt like I was shaking hands with an angel. There was this feeling that I can't explain and I brought a racket. I gave him the racket that I used it wimbled in the old wooden racket. I said, this is for you, and he held it and he said to me, I listened to your match when you played

He said it was an honor to meet you, and then he said that he'd listened to you at Wimbledon. Maybe that that was the connection, you know that he was also saying, yeah.

Well it was fair, yeah like that. I just you just could picture that and then me going.

Homely you think he ever played tennis.

From the way he was swinging the racket, I believe he did play. He did.

He did.

I thought he played. I can't swear to that. I look like he knew how to play.

Yeah, my brother told me that he was once in Hollywood. My father was in the movie, said that he was in Hollywood and Mandela was there, and there was this huge audience, and Spielberg was there, and Geffen was there, and Tom Hanks, every every movie starred, Harrison for there and then Nelson Dell was talking and he just looked out and he just stopped and he came down to the audience. He walked through to the one important person in the room, and it was Muhammad al A, you know.

Well, I met Ali a few times and he had a pretty profound effect too, but he was already suffering from from the effects of Parkinson's and it was tough to see this, you know, incredible human being.

And you know how many athletes do you know?

Or they would give up three years of their prime, Yeah, and refused to fight because they're on principal.

So I think pretty much nobody, honestly.

When did you start playing tennis.

I was eight years old.

Did your tennis coach think about what you should be eating? You know?

I ate cereal that had tons of sugar. I'd have a bacon sandwich for breakfast, cinnamon toast with butter and cinnamon on it. My mother never said a word. Yeah, it didn't matter. Just eat when you're a kid. I mean, I just totally disagree. I see these kids at my academy and they've got these portions.

I'm like, you're twelve, go burn it, run around a little.

What about when they when they're sitting there there drinking the water and sweat, you know, sweating and so would you ever think of having anything at all to eat? No, you wouldn't.

You mean during the match, Yeah.

You'd have some nuts or anything like that.

Nothing, I mean bananas.

That board match went on for how long?

Four hours?

Were you hungry at all? Yeah, you were hungry, but.

I mean also yourself jacked up.

I think if people ever saw me play, they could probably agree that they saw some a lot of energy being thrown out. You're actually running a lot, so it's not a good thing to have a big steak an hour or two before you play.

I mean, I remember beorn Borg.

My buddy would have a steak two hours before every match and it didn't affect him at all.

He was fine.

He was probably one of the greatest and not the greatest athletes they saw in a court. Murray, for example, Andy Murray, I saw him eating a turkey sandwich about a half hour before he played.

He goes, that doesn't affect me at all.

Yeah, before he played, like you know, Wimbledon or something or usa U because you can eat that right. Oh no, it doesn't bother you know. So some people have different metabolisms. I couldn't do that. Some people are even worse. You know, they'll go the whole day and not eat at all. But you know then that's why it could be why they're a little more irritable. I felt like I didn't digest as quickly. Needed a little bit more time.

So you wake up in the morning.

It wasn't a big brad, not a big break. Depending to mending.

When I played, I would have a bigger meal, probably three hours before I played. That would be something like chicken, some type of pasta, some type of blandish potato, some type of vegetable.

Maybe it's possibly a soup. Not really too long.

I eat three hours before they have a two hour break before you actually run the court.

Two to three hours.

Yeah, later matches was preferable because I don't really like breakfast that much and I don't like to have to eat early, but sometimes you have to do it, you know. So it's in my day there was more emphasis on carbs.

I was going to ask you, if it's changed changed quite a bit, what year did you start?

I started in seventy seven, and so what.

Was nutrition light? I asked this to Becam the other day about when did that feeling of you know, what we ate affect our health?

I'd say the early to mid eighties there was more talk about what.

Would be most beneficial.

You know, when you're eighteen, I think you can pretty much run through anything, and the first couple of years after that you can burn. You're burning so many calories it almost doesn't matter, or so you thought, because it's sort of mind over matter, But it because I think it's people are more aware of it than ever.

I think they've gone a little bit too far.

The other way do you in my opinion, But I think they just you know, every little you know, they regulate everything and they've got to do what it's such a time and eat such an amount and I think it's such a bunch of bs personally.

And now you're going to come back to onelon the summer, you will be that.

You know, I've been there probably forty seventy seven I'd say forty three of the last forty five years. Yeah, when my first child was born, I miss one. The pandemic was canceled, but pretty much everyone I've been there, either as a player as a commentator.

Yeah, So it sort of come full circle because.

When they wanted to get rid of me for a while and throw me out, and now all of a sudden, you know, I'm working for BBC of all places, and they're telling me to do exactly what I want, you know. So I find that to be very commendable, I must say, because you know, there's sort of we thought like, hey, they're a bunch of stuff shirts the way they talk and the way they deal with the event. But when they hired me, they were like, look, we want something different,

Obviously for you. And I can't imagine what it's like being booed out of court. I can't imagine who would do.

That, well, you know, but people did.

I know, and I think that.

How did you feel when you got booed?

When you walked on the court for the nineteen eighty and eighty one Wimbledon final against.

Pork didn't feel that great?

But I could always do what Trump did, which was, you know, I sat next to him once and we were at a hockey game. Coincidence that we were sitting next to each other, and they would introduce quote unquote celebrities and they you know, I'm hoping like they don't boom. You know, Ladies and gentlemen, John McEnroe, three time Wimbledon Jim you know, luckily I'm in New Yorker. I've been

This is two years before he ran ars, two years before he.

Ran fifteen thousand of the seventeen thousand people boot him. He sat down and he looked at me, and he says, John, they still love me.

And I thought, for the first time, I thought maybe he could be a politician. He is of all things. The guy became the president of the United.

States, you know, and you would have thought he would have actually like said, oh my god, how in God's name did I do this. We've been around him about two hundred and fifty years. I would say that was probably the craziest thing that ever happened. And we've had civil wars. This guy, you know, never ran for anything in his life.

Now.

See, you can't do something with Trump though, because he doesn't know.

He eats terrible food, right, he.

Doesn't sleep, and he never works out, and he's you know something, that guy's got more energy than I've ever seen anywhere in my entire life.

It is crazy. I mean it's weird.

Are you an emotional when you would lose a game? Would you not want?

Really?

Nothing like that or.

That would be alcohol, would or other things?

But not food?

I mean food might It's not like I, you know, go in and eat a bag of you know, potato chips because I.

Was pasted it.

What's your plan? You don't go out, you don't party, you don't go out in the evening.

You I was not able to do much in the way of partying during Wimbledon, of all things.

You'd hate to sort of blame it on that anybody, not that I'm aware of.

No, I mean I think that in the older days a few of us tried to do it a little bit, but not you know, you'd be a fool to do it at Wimbledon. You could do it at a period of time where you're not you know, it's an exhibition or a smaller event, or it's not much on the line, but if you willing to do it Van and then to me is sort of like you're not taking it

I'm sad I missed you in London because it was crazy the last time you were there and I was here. Do you remember you were just arriving.

Yeah.

I came over for a cup, an event called the Labor Cup, which is a team tennis event where Roger Feeder ended up retiring, so it was a big deal for the sport.

Yeah, how did you feel we felt.

I felt that it was a beautiful night and moment incredible. We also won as a team for the first time, which was even more incredible. No offense to Roger, and so the weekend of the week I was there turned out to be awesome.

Did you ever go to your friends because it's very international tennis, you're talking about playing with Borg and playing Fetter. Do you go to their house? Have you been to Switzerland? Never get a fund?

Do you think, damn guy won't invite me the Orange house I've been at?

What was that like?

You know, it's that you know the sweets, you know, they're great, spotty hat up in the on the water and loves to entertain.

You know.

One of the best friends you could ever have. Never eats much.

He doesn't eat, not a big eater.

I don't know how the guy never has been tired in his life.

Yeah.

Uh, phenomenal athlete. I don't know. It's constitution, you know, whatever it is.

It's him because he'll he eats because he has to eat. I eat because I like to eat. We do just a difference.

What about your kids, So having six kids, that's a kind of food responsibility. Did you take that on in terms of I took it on.

But sometimes I think, you know, we we we should have just let it go and let him do what they want pretty much, let him learn on their own.

I mean, you could recommend.

Stuff, but if you sort of no, that's not good, that desert because you're putting on You know, girls are four girls and two boys. Every human being is different. All my kids are different, so you got to sort of know how to treat them. My son, one of my sons, he would eat so slowly. Everyone would be finished at the table. He'd still be cutting the saladch saning to eat your goddamn salad, you know, and he'd

So the way I never said that, if.

You will sit down to dinner when you had the kids to the family, you had dinner every night together.

Somebody they called me Larry the lecturer is what I became known as because I try to give him a little bit of life's lesson and then, oh god, here he goes again.

About food, about life, about anything.

Sometimes it was food, sometimes there's about tennis. Sometimes it was about life. Sometimes there's about cool work. Sometimes it was about nothing in particular, and then I started pontificating and that rubbed them the wrong way. And sometimes I overdid it, and then I dig in and they go Dad, everyone.

Disagrees with the other table.

There's seven seven to one, including Patty and I go I'm still right.

I love Italian food.

Have lived in Italy.

I've never lived there.

I've been there, you know, probably fifty to seventy five times. Yeah, playing, you know.

But yeah, where did you go?

Oh? Every city you can imagine.

The first rock and roll tour that I ever participated in as a band, allegedly I was the most traveled unsigned band in history.

Oh is that a fact?

I would bet money on that.

But we did a two week tour of Italy in the summer of nineteen ninety four, ninety four. I was thirty five. Yeah, I had stopped.

Playing from a well, I.

Was more of a sort of a passion and I don't want to say hobby, but something that was trying to sort of find that find out where I was headed, because you know, when you stop playing, it's not always on the terms you want. I was going through a divorce at the time at the end of my career, which I didn't anticipate.

I had three kids, so I.

Was you know, then the next couple of years you're going through it.

It's not fun.

So I needed a little bit of levity and so I was able to start to do something that I love to do. It made me appreciate my friends who did it for a living more. But it was a fun trip, I must.

Say, and vitally.

My agent at the time was Italian and so he sort of set this whole thing up. We played with Frank Sinatra plant I forgot forte dem.

But we played some.

Nice locales, but we we didn't knock them dead. Now, we didn't get to eat the food that you know, you're normally able to get pretty easily just because of scheduling and stuff. But I mean, you can stop by a highway, which is a lot better than.

The apostat those little sandwiches that they fought. When you segued from that that photograph that I describe, which I can imagine in my head of you carrying the painting, how we segued from from music to art from tis.

Well, I always loved art because I relate to artists big time. Because there is close to tennis players as almost anyone else, because they're sort of on their own island.

They've got to represent.

They go to a gallery opening, people could be there and it sucks, you know, and the person could.

Be right there and well, yeah, they couldn't. He couldn't give those paintings away.

He got so frustrated with the art world that he sort of walked away from it.

So it's like sort of like if I walked.

Into the center court of Wimbledon and you know, I lose six to zero, you know, and I'm down to zero and people are booing, and you feel like, you know, you want to hide. It's the worst feeling in the world. So I think it takes guts to put yourself in a position there's a great reward if it goes well, but there's also a definite downside, So it takes I think it takes emotional strength to do that. And so I think it's the same as for an artist or

And then he went through different.

Periods, which I love to see artists doing different things.

And then he went almost you know, abstract express this.

You know, you're like, that's a huge change, and then back to these like cartoonist figures, which I thought were incredible. So I just thought this guy just had a you know that would be like the type of artists that if I was an artist, I'd be trying to emulate, you know, so and he stuff.

But he really was so And when you were talking about, you know, saying, somebody is just criticizing them in such a damaging way, you know, Hilton Kramer of the New York Times, when Gustin had his first show at Marlborough and he showed the hooded figures and he showed the clan just wrote on the front page of the New York Times Arts sets, you hit this guy should give up and go home. And you know, he got on

I find it, you know, difficult to respect these I mean, I respect someone who gives some destructive criticism or who would admit I don't get this and I'm not sure why this person did it, but I've got to sort of let this, let me digest this, or some half assed that goes on. You know, some tennis guy you know who writes tennis who did make it because he wasn't good enough and then he's going to sit there and criticize me. I go, you better know what you're

And then I was like, you don't know a damn thing.

About what we're doing, and was frustrating, and it's hard to respect that. So I could certainly see where a guy who you know, put his heart into soul into something, you know, either way, like in my case, I was lucky because even I didn't like it. But sometimes negative attention can still people still want you. You know, they'll offer you money to come because they think that you know.

The car crash.

If you're an artist and someone completely shits on you and you know you don't sell anything. You're not making any money, so you could, you know, head down a really bad path, and I think a lot of artists have done that as well as comedians.

The upside is.

If you're able to stick with it and believe it that, you know, the turnaround could be all the more sweet. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to happen that often with artists that are alive and nowadays to me, a successful artist at least financially, they're like businessmen. They're not even like, you know, the best artists to me anymore, they're just the smart. They're extremely smart people, and they manipulate the system in

I mean ultimately you got to go out there.

You can talk all you want, but you know, you get out in the court or you got to step up.

So that part I like that.

Ultimately, the best will the cream will rise to the top.

I think that you know your honesty and your you know what you say about whether it's you know the world or Trump or the booing or the art or the solitariness. It is a solitary thing, is it? Play? You know, being an artist in your.

Studient very solitary, especially and your sport.

That's why I love the musician Devils.

And I also love playing for my country because you're with the team for that brief period of time.

And I think you you know, as I said, from the very beginning, we were on your side. We thought you are. You know, your anger was fine, your unfairness was respected. Your politics, you know, your politics were amazing. Ow are And I think as a model that's what counts, you know, and as a player, And.

I think you're I do.

I think you're really nice. I think you're nice to walk across the park. I think you are. So if we think that food, you're gonna have food which makes you feel healthier, food which makes you feel better performance. You could have food that pleases your mother because you've eaten it. You could have food that you want your children to eat. Food can be all that, but can also be comfort. If you needed comfort, what food would you reach for?

Big ball of ice cream?

Ice cream? I'm sure I do too.

I love ice cream, cookies and cream coffee, you know, mixture of things.

Do you always keep it in the house if you Yeah, I do.

But that's not you know, we shouldn't do that. I love you know. I love a beer and Pratzels late at night. It's comforting.

Yeah. Is there a food that reminds you of your childhood?

Pancakes? Are some? Did great?

Well?

Thank you thanks for having me.

The River Cafe Look Book is now available in bookshops and online. It has over one hundred recipes, beautifully illustrated with photographs from the renowned photographer Matthew Donaldson. The book has fifty delicious and easy to prepare recipes, including a host of River Cafe classics that have been specially adapted for new cooks. The River Cafe Lookbook Recipes for Cooks of all ages. Ruthie's Table four is a production of