Political Odd Couple

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in their honor. Donate eleven dollars a month by going to t to t dot org. That's t the number two t dot org. You are the most generous audience there is, and we thank you for your support. On this edition of Rush Limbaugh, The Man behind the Golden E. I B. Mike, we have a treat today, and without further introduction, Mary Mattlin and husband James Carvel, welcome both of you to this podcast series. So we don't do this together, I have to start by asking Mary and

James separately, when did you meet Rush? Mary gonna go first, I thank you. I know you met him before I did. Go ahead, I met him. We visited him and had used to have an apartment like right on Fifth Avenue in New York. And the first time I met him was at his condo apartment whatever you call it was Upper east Side, his Upper east Side digs and Mary, you was that the time, honey? We went with Russert and his wife with Tim, remember that we had dinner at that but that was no that was at Central

when he lived in Central Park. We went and at dinner with Russers. But Russian James ironically hit it off and I knew Brush before he was rushed. We kind of I think my dad turned me onto him in the eighties, late eighties, and then we've been constant companions since then, as James will tell you, since I never

turned him off. I miss seeing both of you. Remember those Tim Russer Christmas shows, and we sure do missing those of us who I mean, we love seeing your family on Meet the Press with Tim Russer and I gotta tell you Meet the Press. Of course, that was back in the golden age of Meet the Press. James. Let me, James elaborate on Meet the Press, because I think this is a turning point in a lot of things.

When Tim Russer passed but interesting, sad, bitter sweet, but tribute to Tim Russert in our relationship is, um James tell him first of all, I think, James, you said we were on there more than anybody else, Like, let's elaborate at Tim. I don't know I was on I was on that a lot. I don't know about more than I think Bob Doe Will holds the whole time record for me depress, but I could be the longest. Probably changed since then. Um, well and I were just

they were like best friends. I mean we've had our baseball tickets together with you know, professional basketball or Wizards tickets together. His son and I did a top sports talk radio show for some time. And uh, you're right. When he died in June the first night we're in New Orleans and and part of Washington journalism, I think it died with Tim, but you know, it was just it was one of those kind of similar events and uh,

you know it was to was to day. It's it's difficult and it was, uh what twelve years ago, thirteen years ago kind of order to believe it was the first he died the first night that we were going to spend in our house in New Orleans. So it was it was almost to the date if you look it up, maybe it was June eighth and ninth, the day died, but before probably topa. I guess it would

be unfortunately, thirteenth year anniversary. Warm Alright. I don't want to talk politics, because that is kind of not why we're here. I do want to talk about Rush though. Now, James, you know Rush had a nickname for you, what washing? Somebody's Chelby? But what remind me again? It was serpent head. Yeah, very calm any any nickname is good. Where that came from? Where? Um? Jeb Bush? Well, it was a jabb or ales No, no, no, Jeb.

It was Jeff Bush. Because I was so smitten with James, and I was on this rocket of a career trajectory and I fell in love with him. And it was in the middle of that campaign that I was running. He was running Clinton's, and so everybody was like, who is this guy? Nobody knew, And when Jeff saw my TV goes that's it. That's the guy. And Roddrill said this verse, he looks like I issue swam too close to a nuclear reactor. And Jeff goes he it's like a serpent head. I love you head. Well that quickly

be yeah, that quickly became. That quickly became your nickname on the Russi Limbo Show and James, as you may know, I don't know whether you know this or not. Rush We had a lot of bits. Yeah, people would tell me about it not you know, and that you know. I never you know. It's part of being in a public person. But you're right, married Right, every time I get in her car that she had previously driven, it would be on RUSH Radio. So I don't I think

I'd changed it right away to NPR. But but I I think if I say something about Rush, if when you've become famous, and I've noticed some right, people only know you for what you're famous for, all right, So if if you're a baseball player and you're famous, you have a life outside of baseball, people are just not that interested in it, are marginally interested in it, and

they want to talk to you about that. Well, obviously, probably two people that Mary was closest to it was Russian Vice President Cheney, and as a result of that, I had to spend a fair amount of time and but both of them word. They were multidimensional people. So whoever I was gonna talk about politics, because I sure they didn't agree to anything they said, and they would say the same thing about me, but we could talk

about other things very easily. Was it wasn't a stilted to force conversation that were They're both multidimensional people, so you didn't have like uncomfortable small talk. And I think that's something that's kind of important because, like I said, people, when people come famous, they're only known for the thing that they become famous for. But they have families, and they have interests, and they have you know, children, or they have any number of things that they deal with.

And I always found it, you know, easy to in a social situation, uh, with both of these men and not feel uncomfortable or anything like that. What did Dreames tell my James tell Russia's James? What are Rush gave us for a wedding present? Because that was one of his things he knew a lot about. I said, let's just say it was, hey gave us a magnum of Obreon whoa of which, Yeah, it's pretty nice. I mean it was any knew whe I mean he did, you know and I would, I could talk, you know, vintages

with him or anything like that. And I uh, I think we're gonna open it Thanksgiving if they it's getting a little long in the tooth yet, I don't want to sell it because you know when somebody gives you a gift like that and they don't give it to sell. And I still have it the Shanador Valley and it's under control temperature, so I think that I think it will drink just fine come November. The great cut post COVID Thanksgiving, right, yeah, I'll tell you post COVID, I

just I'll spent a week in Las Vegas. You know that was his re entry, James Golding, wonderful. Well, I'm glad you. I am glad that you are post COVID. Now, can I just get your reaction to this? Okay, So those of us old enough to remember what the campaign was like between Bush UH forty one and Bill Clinton,

remember it was a pretty heated campaign there. And then comes this surprise, and you two took everybody by surprise when news I don't know, was it leaked out or did you announce it that you two were indeed in love with each other and you were having a relationship. How did what was the reaction at that time that both of you encountered what we had a relationship prior

to the campaign. In fact, when I was doing the Harris Wofford Race and the fall of but very well, I've to go to the Durious three station in Philadelphia, gorgeous building, you know, the angel holding the fallen soldier, and uh, it was among people in Washington insiders, it was pretty well. It was not the secret. I mean we'd go to dinner together and do all kinds of things. And and then once the campaign started, I think that

the public became sort of more aware of it. And it's kind of funny for all of that and that campaign, Uh, President H. W. Bush and President Clinton became really close. I mean it was almost like an uncle to President Clinton. And I'd go to the library, you know, and done Evensford very you know, a couple three times, and you know, always gracious and everything. And you know, it was a different era in politics. And we'll just leave it at that. Do you wish that that some of that Eric could

come back? I wish I was you know, forty eight. Again, you know, nothing stays the same That's what people got to realize. It is you're in a place now, but you know, the place we were in is a different place than we were in in two thousand and six, which is a different place, and we're gonna be in in two thousand and twenty six. I mean, I I don't know exactly how it is this ends, but it's the one thing I know. It'll morph into something else,

whether whether it moss into something better or worse. Uh, promisic kind of got something better. But but it's what it is right now. The Democrat part never James Carvill, James Carvil, the Democrat Party that's never been, that's never been. This polace in life boat. That was after Trump was elected. James Kerver was on yesterday, Biden's gonna be Biden. He's gaff pro but he got a hard to go, hard to go all out there. You can't say another man about on. Joe, Joe are the greatest guys in the

Democratic body. Leader that we need is exactly kind of leader. He's a kind of the leader of the world. Day Joe back. Over the course of this series, we've been taking you on the biographical journey of Russia's life narrated by his friends, family, and colleagues. Today we welcome Premier Networks and nationally syndicated host George Norri. There's so many commonalities between Russell and Bat and George Norri, both experienced

broadcasters from the Midwest and both from Missouri. Both broadcasters host radio programs that are heard on over six hundred radio stations daily, many of the affiliate stations bearing the same call letters. George Norri is best known as host of the Coast to Coast AM radio program All About the Unexplainable now the incomparable George nor The Life of Russia Limbaugh Chapter nine, narrated by George nor The nineties drew new lines in the political battlefield, ultimately leading to

a hotly contested two thousand presidential election. But by the time George W. Bush was inaugurated and the dust began to settle, the era of compassionate Conservatism seemed poised for smooth Saley. The Clinton presidency was in the rear view mirror.

The House had a Republican majority, and because Conservatives were riding high, Russia's critics predicted, without anyone to complain about, his show would soon be on the decline, and then on a clear Tuesday morning, everything changed and debris is just falling off the building. I mean it's underwardly looking at the trade towers exactly when it happened. We need

to unite, We need to understand together. September eleven, two thousand one profoundly impacted America, the presidency and Russia limbus. All different sets of emotions start taking over. Then in the course of the next few weeks, learned that I knew people who lost people, family members and friends of the World Trade Center. They are still not the same.

The tone of politics changed on a dime, and Russia's audience grew dramatically as Americans turned to a familiar, soothing voice to calm the chaos, pick up the pieces, and move America forward. The Bush White House also recognized the breach of his program, as both President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney became regular contributors. Welcome back to the program the Vice President, Dick Cheney, Mr Vice President, thank you as always, it's a it's an honor and a

delight to have you here with us. Great talk to you again. After two successful terms and despite expertly guiding America through an unprecedented crisis early in his administration. President Bush left Washington with the waning popular the and a miss harsh criticism. In the years that followed. Rush tried to set the record straight. Bush was a solid leader dealing with nine eleven of me. How in the world you go from that perception to go to being approval,

hated and reviled. You do that by letting the media destraw. You're not fighting back and not getting political because you don't want to sully the office or whatever. To the end, Russell Limbaugh had profound respect for his friend, President George W. Bush and his stewardship of the American President's Bush has been rehabilitated. In the eyes of the drive by media,

Bush is gracious. Now. What's missing in this transformation, of course, Bush the evil, to Bush the gracious is the acknowledgment that he has always comported himself this way. Despite the relentless attacks these past eight years, George W. Bush has

been a class act. He considered Bush a strong leader who was unfairly defined by his opponents, and for his part, George W. Bush had a mutual respect for Rush, and a statement after his death, Bush praised Russia's belief in God in country as an indomitable spirit with a big heart like his father before him. Perhaps the same could be said about number forty three. Hey, James Golden, here, you know what it's time that you treat yourself to a little bit of luxury. You know the company, It's

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I'll get your reaction to it. I don't know whether you two realizes it or not, but for a lot of people um that that are really political people, I believe that you two are an inspiration because in a way you symbolize something. You symbolize that two people who are on opposite ends of the political spectrum can still

have a very loving relationship with each other. You guys have been married for a while, you have kids now that have grown, and I can still hear the love between both of you, and this is his apparent always been a real thing with you since you've guys decided you were in love with each other. And so do you share the belief that this is somehow that this is in a way you two are larger than yourselves. Well, all right, and don't you have a long conversation with Mary.

I just I'll go back to the original thing is if you're famously you're known for something, of course this is the way that we're in the living. There was a guy, I think Walter Shapiro, wrote a review of our book, and his point was, it's not surprising that something like this happened in Washington, but would really be

surprising if Mary married a tree surgeon in Idaho. I mean, if you put thought that would have been you know, if you put when you put you know, boys and girls in the same kind of profession, you know, and that there are other examples of of people like us. I mean, I guess, you know, passed the baton to Kelly, Anne and George with which I'm happy to do. But like Anna been At and John Buckley, they were good friends of ours. They were you know, definitely John Buckley

was one of the famous Buckley's of Connecticut. And Anna ben it's a fort worth uh. And she's a very accomplished poster. I worked, I thought in New Jersey some So I mean that they're instances of it, because it's just the way that nature is. When you start mixing compounds someone we're gonna stick m and uh. And I think that what's helped us as we maintain interest in

things outside of politics, I think that's it. I think that's you know, we both have a describe as a healthy interest in politics, and I don't deny that, but we have, you know, all kinds of stuff, but we also enjoy we enjoy so many other things, football, family, food, friends history. Okay, now let's take the politics if we can aside out of the question. All right, what do you think Russian blaws legacy is going to be, James, Well, I mean it saved an entire medium of communications. I

mean they saved a m radio. And the way that you know a person's legacy is how many knockoffs did he create? You know, let Mary go through the list of names of people you know. And I want to only limit my remarks to positive remarks, and would note that not the appropriate time to make. But but but but well, in a nation that is really divided into people that think difficions is a problem, kind of harder

to say, what a divisive guy. But having said that, what I'd like to focus on because you know, he created a lot of knockoffs and none of them ever became him. And that's that's when you you know you've done something when you've got successful people imitating you. And I know in my own life, I mean have any talk radio, but I always take such pride and people in the campaigns that worked for me to have gone on to do a lot of great things. Uh, So

that that that's what you gotta feel good. No, I mean, I'm sure that that rush. You know, I don't have any doubt that he believed in the things that he said, and I'm sure he had to take a certain amount of pride that so many people imitated him, and that I think is is I don't think anybody has had that kind of you know, influence and the right wing media at all. And I mean I was listening to him and I was working in Kentucky, and I mean it's like that's that that uh, you know, to do.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't do three hours of programming five days a week for anything in the world, and you know he was doing. I mean, he was not an overly modest man, but be honest, in terms of his professional career, he didn't have a lot to be modest about. You know, I'll say I I you know, and I love coming on here, but Marry, I don't know how much she loved r I should love you. And oh, I was glad that you all asked me to participate for a few minutes in this. I'm happy

that you did, and I'm so happy that you did. James, thank you so much. We do appreciate your time. You honey, love you by now married the attention. I mean, actually we can't talk together. This is how we why we were halfway decent on Tim because he we just talk over each other. But can I just pick up on one point that that James made that's so important and its it's tied a little bow around everything you've been saying about this period, and there's things that people didn't

know about Rush. I mean, of course he was more talented. He was talent on loan from God, and you too, James. The other James were saying confusing and James, but he picking up on that point that James made. In real life, Rush was an overly modest, humble he had he knew what the data was. But I think to the very end he was moved, struck, shocked, awed by his own reach. He also was a gentleman. He was courteous, he was gentle, He was patient. He taught me how to use it

iPhone when in the flip phone days. He knew something about He was a Polly math or self taught Polly Matthew knew wine and no architecture, new aviation, economic spycraft. The guy was a real renaissance man and that's why that that's how I think of Rush and the other thing that James used to st James listened to him a lot when we were in the car together. He does he could do more better than anybody I've ever seen, including James. But this is one of James's talents make

the complex understandable. But it's just there's just now you know everybody, I don't. I don't want to make comparisons, but I don't know anybody else that had as deep a philosophical and and literal understanding of so many topics. And he had first principles, and he was steeped in history. And you know what else he knew that I don't know anybody else that knows is is he turned me onto this is what real liberalism, real legacy socialism is like.

He understood liberals, if you really, and he inspired me to do this. Read a lot about the Russian Revolution and even proceeding that marks and you know, the Enlightenment and all that. He knew the whole thread of history that led to liberalism, and he understood how it became a racket and how it beat, how it transited the globe. And that's why he was always a step ahead of He always knew what the Democrats were gonna do before

we even knew what was going on. One of the problems I had with Rush early on was I was kind of a hippie dippy, you know, environmentalist in my old days, and he when it started to turn into a racket, and he connected it to environmental wackos, which I kind of understood, but I couldn't understand the motivation. That was the other thing that he could suss out and explain the motive. And he never attributed ill motives.

He attributed the reality he was. He was the mayor of Realville, so he knew what they were gonna do, and he would say these things that people go, oh, rush, oh, Rush. And he was always literally literally sometimes decades, always years ahead of where the culture and the zeitgeist was. He's he's literally an all time twentieth century genius. I said. I used to tell him it was uncanny. He would make predictions about the way something would roll out, and

sometimes I would be one of those voices. I'll come on Rush seriously, and within a few months or a year, sometimes maybe longer, whatever he predicted would start to happen. But you know the beauty the gift you gave him, and you would challenge him, and you would poke holton him, and you made his particularly as he was thinking. That was another thing he did that I've never seen anybody do with the aplom that he did it. He would think out loud, and he would think in full paragraphs

and complete narratives. But you would push him at prod him and pick at him and understand what he understood was in his head. And he thought everybody knew you guys were a great team, James, a fabulous team. Thank you. Well. I wanted to know and I always found him interesting and I wanted to know how he arrived at these conclusions. And you know, he gave me the freedom to disagree

with him publicly, which was just amazing and astounding. And he could sometimes tell by a look because I'd look at him a certain way, Why are you looking at me like that? Do you not agree? And that was if I didn't, Okay, I don't, and why and then

he would explain it. He was wonderful that way. That's the that is the hallmark of a genius is somebody who is always challenging their own perspectives, their own ideas, and is trying to understand how other people think and how they're perceiving what he is that the person here, she is saying he always hadn't and he liked to be disagreed with, didn't y'all just always tee up the liberals first? That's right, that's right. He would demand that if someone disagreed, put him up at the top. I

want to talk to them first. These people are not interested in democracy. They're not interested in representative democracy or a republic. We are in a battle for the overall kind of countries is gonna be. We're not in a battle over who is going to win every four years. We're not in a battle over who's going to be president, who's going to run the senator, who's going to run the House. The battle we are in is virtually and literally about will this remain the United States of America

as founded? That is what is being waged here now, Mary you um uh. The people that have been with us, the lifers, the people that were with us for the full ride, remember full well that in our very first compliment of guest host, we had a guest host rotation. Dr Walter Williams love him me too, Tony Snow, miss m too, and Mary Mattlin. You're too kind, James, I would know I'm not you were you were in our rotation. You guest hosted the show many times. What was it

like when you sat down? We used to do the show out of Washington, d C. A lot at the ABC studios. UH their their headquarters in Washington, d C. They allowed us to come in and use their studios and they were always, by the way, very nice with us, very gracious. Um and you used to come in in those days, and I used to fly down. We used to do the show from from those studios. What was it like for you guest hosting the Russia Limbus show? Nobody, and that is that you're You're only like a guest

in the orbit of Rush. But I think it was pretty good when I forgot about those days in Washington, because then I did have a daily radio show, which when I cut my contracts, in no way I want to be on any position except after Russia Limb but I don't want to be on that. But I the two. The thing that that I don't remember most is how bad I sucked when I came up to New York and I was frazzled and frenzied, and I was sitting in his actual chair behind the e I b my

and I just could not get my ship together. And you were so kind and you just the only highlight of when I did that, and I was so terrible. It's like a week was my dad came on and devoted to my dad and the way Russia was devoted to his dad, and it just that's what I remember, is your kindness and my dad coming on and that I was so inept in the world of Russian limbo.

And it really makes you understand the skill set that he had in addition to being brainy, like radio is the is the most pleasing medium if you're a chatter, and it's what's the most difficult. And I do remember always missing the heart out, always missing the clock, always talking over people. So he thank you for having me on. But I remember you kindly said, well you're in the rotation. I said, well then you're gonna have a you're gonna have a big loss of listeners. And now, folks, if

you didn't hear it, don't believe her. She was Mary was great because I'll tell you one thing Mary always did, which was come prepared, and Mary knew and knows subject matter of politics like nobody else. I mean, this is your this is I mean, I hear you saying that you and James, you know, you don't talk about politics, and maybe with the rest of the family you don't, but you are a political person and you you understand politics.

You know it from the inside and the outside. All of the stuff that's quote unquote in the weeds, you understand that stuff, and you can talk about that stuff. But you can also talk about big picture politics and and all of that. And so that's what you brought to the table. And I'm and that's what I know you still bring to the table Mary, except I've banned myself because I just this this environment is it's so ugly and uncivil, and I don't want to be cliche

about it. But the speaking of the weeds, you mentioned earlier that uh Russian I we were so on the same wavelength and we went through so many campaigns together that if I if and he knew a lot about politics, as you knew a lot about everything, but he wouldn't have these like blind spots. So I would email him and in real time. I don't know how you guys

did this. In real time, he'd sort three find out of his thousand emails a minute, he'd find the one and he it would be just I just sent him in a headline in the in the title, or a quick sentence, uh where he was offered another fact to add or some poll date or something I had that he didn't know, and he seamlessly incorporated into his subsequent remarks. And it just was I felt like we had such a such a team thing going on. And then the last year, I I I've never seen such courage and bravery.

I happened to have had health issues with contemporaneous lessly with his and some of my friends were going too, and my friends were going through the same thing. And I don't know how he got up and went to the studio as often as he did, and he put off this team. I mean, if people don't, it's just so unusual in this sort of I don't want to say snow flaky, but this in the in this self uh immediate gratification and uh un uncourageous and the easiest way out side guys that we find ourselves in rush

showed the courage of of George Washington. I mean, I can't, I can't even I don't even know how he did that. Bo you were there, I mean, it just it just stunning to me. And he made a huge difference and he it. I really felt like he was going to bring it over the line, just like he did in which was amazing. Ye explained the marked to people by the way he the ninth the Republicans had been but we had been friends for some time here at that point. I literally like a month after I got married, I

flew out to California for a book party. I think he quit doing book parties, but this might have been one of the very first books. And his mother was that Millie was there, his beloved Millie. I loved her and he so all the time that I knew him. Preceding this, Republicans were wandering around in the desert and they had been in the minority for over half a century. And he became an honorary member of the Congress because he they couldn't get there, and there you can see

this problem today. Republicans have a hard time speaking with one voice because they're speaking into immediacy. Rush went above that and laid out the principles and how the policies of this uh, the New Gingridge Revolution at that time was really Russia's revolution, how it how the first principles, how these policies were predicated on these first principles, and everybody was shocked. We won that. No one saw this coming except for Russia. The Republicans won the majority, they won,

We won the New York governors that Rudy Giuliani. It was a complete sweep. And I I credit and many do too. And anybody who knows anything about policies and how messages delivered and penetrates would attribute to the victory and the finest victory in the last century for Republicans to rush Limbaugh's and I can't call it anything else but a campaign. His other completely transformational act was um Operation Chaos. He watching fluence on politics way more than

anybody who's in politics. I shouldn't say that. That's a little hyperbole, but he had as much influence as everyday operatives have on politics. But in the big picture and the historical picture there he had more influence than anybody else, and that is fair to say. And towards the his his let's say in the sixties when he and Katherine started doing the history book. He had identified the problem the way ahead of the curve, that we weren't learning

history right. So he's covered so many generations, uh with with this unique talent of his, and it it just I'm I can't even keep a train of phone. When I think of him. My whole brain just smiles, It just lights up. I just this everything about him was such a special thing. He also was in real life. This is a really main point about living happily in all eras. That man had a sense of humor. Yes he did. He was funny in the sophisticated way, and he just was. He was always so much fun to

be around. I just I just miss him so much. Dreams I miss him too. And some days I'm I mean, all of us on were I think, you know, I still have dreams I miss him. I was talking with Dawn the other day and Dawn was saying, you know, she still expects to wake up and just one day all of us to be back in the studio together. And it's just still really um, it's still mind numbing that that that when did you find out he was sick? Well, I guess I literally found out or when everybody else did.

But I knew, I just know. I mean, I just I just I don't. This sounds weird, but we were telepathically connected, and I knew something was freighting him before didn't when he announced it. I just was not I remember not being remotely surprised, just sad. And I thought he was gonna beat it. I really thought he was going to beat it. And I he I think he I don't want to say, stepped up his game because he never had a bad day even though he thought

he did. That's another thing. How many people, do you know, do something as long as they he did that, who come to work talk about being prepared, who come to their job every day with the level of intensity and depth that he did in those days. He come back and said, look, yesterday, I don't think I did a good job. I let me try. I he just who keeps that that that self criticism and that self improvement and that reaching for the stars uh as part of

their fundamental being? And he kept that on at a whole different level, like a transcendent i'd given level in his last year, and I and I could feel when he was having good days and bad days, and it had so screwed up his time, not his time even looking at the clock. You know this because I never saw many clocks as he did in that last year. He was so in his zone. And I'm sure he was doing it on all kinds of drugs too, because you can't just take him, mom, And I still don't

to this. I've never I've never seen that, and we can expect to never see that again. He's he's actually a medical miracle, you know. He um he That's what I said, And I was in one of the earlier podcast I mentioned how at the end of his show sometimes he would be so exhausted he couldn't even stand up, he could barely stand up. But he gave everything that

he could into each one of those shows. And and this was something else, you know, going into thirty three years of being a syndicated holes before, before he real eyes he was sick, before he realized that something was wrong, Rush was still and even of course afterwards, but he always gave it his best shot. He didn't mail it in, he never mailed it. He was still excited about being on the radio. This hadn't become just a dull routine. To him, this was something that he honestly did believe

he was born to do, and he enjoyed it. This is he loved it, and he gave it his best every single day. You know when he used to say, uh, more more fun than any human beings should be allowed to have. That's how he lived his life. And you know it wasn't without problems, and he overcame so many things, as you and David's brother know and all that, but he he never even phoned it in when he was going through his various trials and tribulations like who doesn't

have those in life? And those trials and tribulations that he overcame that were of his own doing, took enormous courage. And then so much of the things he had to overcome were externally imposed on him. And I know in the beginning, now everybody knows we're in a psycho toxic you know, social media world. But when people started coming after him, I think it surprised an It hurt him in a way that he didn't understand because he was his person. He was never mean. Now, I don't know

how people ever thought he was mean. There was nothing ever mean about him. Did he have a mean bonus? I've never talked anybody. No, No, Nor was he racist, nor was he bigoted, nor was he all these other things that the left through on him as a means of trying to hurt him and diminish his credibility. You know, they came at him. What what we're all accused of these days. You know, you want sovereign borders, you're a racist if you like you know, whatever it is, you're racist,

no matter what. We know all that. But they did that to him first. So in a way, he was like a punching bag in a in a learning vehicle or a preparation vehicle for now all of us that are called racist at any moment. And you know before that he was a misogynist, and and he was aside, he was a a feminazi. That was my favorite thing because I I left, I left the feminist whatever way.

I'm sixty eight, so we're kind of the same age. Well, I could hang in with them when they said a man a woman needs a man like a bike needs a fish. And then they turned in all the id politics instead of really, you know, equal opportunity and all that and feminine you can't even use the word nots anymore. But when he said feminazi, I just to this day I crack up because it was so perfect and it was such so port entious, like they were so untouchable when he started doing that, and it was and he

really had the nail on the head. If I may say this, A lot of feminists that took took feminism in the wrong direction. He couldn't be not you know, I don't really even want to say this, but he knew what the problem, what the essence of that fanaticism was as and it's the same with all kinds of liberal fanaticism. He understood that and it never tainted his soul.

It just inspired him to get people to understand not only what they were doing, what they were planning to do, but what to do about it, and to keep doing it, and to keep doing it and to keep fighting and the other thing. Besides never being mean to anybody. He I'm sure he had some depressed days, but you he how many times did people call in and they were crying or they're about to cry, or they were so forlorn, or they've just given up, including people lost their jobs

and stuff. He would just talk him back from the brink. And it's just that had such a magnifying force for so many people that didn't call in. I can't tell you how many. When I was on the road, everybody everywhere I went people asked this, And you know, I must have coasted more than you that I remember, But everybody always asked me about Rush. But what was he really like? And was he really that good? And Bubba he really well, I'm missing him, James, I'm having I'm

having having Rush rushed through me. He were channeling Rush right now and he's saying he misses everybody, and he loves everybody, and he's so grateful. And he really was grateful. Member. He used to say, no matter what you've given me, and no matter how much you think you've done for me, is nothing, and compared, he would tell his orderence to what they did for him, and how he was eternally grateful and gratified by what this audience had given to

him and his family. And he really meant every single word of that. Mary, I hope people realize how rare that is, because he was completely not just rarefied atmosphere, but his own level. You know, he was his own level, and he always believed that. And that's such a rare occurrence because I've seen too many James says. My James has two people who get famous and then start believing their own press. And this is not antiliar to the

right or the left. It's like everybody who gets famous thinks they're untouchable, and they in a way, they become isolated. I mean, you couldn't go out with rush I remember we went to Patsy's once after his TV show, and you know, I just couldn't go anywhere with him. So it's isolating. But he always stayed genuine and knowledgeable and not angry. He wasn't not There's no anger that fueled

his like it does so much in politics. The man was a happy man who was born to do what he was doing, and in Katherine found the love of his life. And I think it's life changed a lot when he moved to Florida to that was a lot. That was a big I don't want to say. When he could have a normal, kind of a normal life. He could drive where he wanted to drive himself, he didn't need to have people around him for security all

the time. He could have a somewhat normal life. Yes, of course it wasn't a somewhat normal life because he was so surrounded himself with objects of interest and beauty and all. He wasn't in any way showing, but he wanted to share it. Marry. He'd have the Spring Fling every spring obviously did be sports people. And one year I asked him to invite Vince Flynn and they became great friends. And then he had the He had the twenty four people one year, and he just shared everything.

He put everybody up when he got married, he and Katherine, he put everybody up at that at that hotel hell and we had hair day, you know, like he's just so generous with his uh success and and she was the biggest sharer of anybody an entertainer, um and and and trying to and host. That's what I'm trying to think of host. He's always made everybody so happy, comfortable, entertained, and it was never a big foot about it, you know.

And I'll tell you another story like that right after. Well, this was when we were first won the White House in two thousand four, and I was then working with I had two little babies. Our babies are a little bit.

I wanted to work with Dick Chase. I went back in the White House, and the first thing Dick Cheney wanted to do, and this was the first party we planned at the Vice President's residence, was to do it in honor of Rush, because Cheney understood what happened in and he really loved Rush and respected Russian in many ways,

got the same kind of incoming that Rush got. So then nine eleven happened, so we had to scrap everything because Cheney and I could not be in town the same time that Bush was the president was so for continuity of government. So when we finally had it, it was after he started losing his hearing, and that was very frustrating for him. He couldn't be in a crowd. It was too cacophonous for him, right, It actually was painful for him to act and being a crowd and

half his cochlear implant, it was painful. And this was even before his cochlear thing, and he was just he was trying to deal with, you know, like the whole that was another thing. Who else what is more important to speech than hearing? Okay, communicating? He never lost his voice, It never became unrecognizable. But I do remember that night, how humble and moved he He wasn't but he couldn't

really hear everything. So I was sitting next to him, trans not translating, you know what I mean, repeating everything, and I knew ta he He's talked many times well then at that time. I don't know if he got a note or he talked about that party and how he wished his dad had been around to see it. And he again another instance of so beloved and and so humbled and and so in a he was so rarefied in in a way that every so many people admired. But it never failed to surprise him. Never, he never

took it for granted. He was always in awe every time he came to the White House. The man has perpetual childlike awe and wonder over things historic in this country and people who were true public servants, and they just he was he and he and Dick Cheney had a very lovely relationship. You everybody used to say, I think I knew Rushed before anybody else in my world. And they'd say, your reason, charge of Russia, And I'm not in charge of him? And everything? Can I get

on rushed. Can you call Russian? I never never ever ever called. He told me I could call for anybody, and the only one I just made a liaison with. And then he had his own relationships subsequent to the first time was with Dick Cheney and he I think he enjoyed those shows. I think they enjoyed each other. Yes they did. It was apparent on the air that they did, because you could almost feel the bond of camaraderie, that they had your perseverance here and your devotion to

service you and you and rumsfelt both. I mean, you've given your lives, your country, You've taken all kinds of slings and arrows for it, and I just want you to know that, Um, I am at the top of the list among people have a great sense of appreciation for what you've done. Well mean, in the world count from you. Well, I'm I'm flattered, but but you really, it's it's an honor to have have been able to know you and get to know your family and and your friends,

and we wish you the best. Mr Vice President. Keep on. So last thing, Mary, Here's legacy. What is Russia's legacy? You know it's I try to separate out myself as a friend and a mentee if you will, because he really was a guiding force from my personal life in addition to what I just said as an inspiration, but literally, like I didn't want to write a book about our experience. He goes, are you crazy? One percent of the people

in the world have ever done what you've done. You owe it to them to to you owe it to the public to say what it's like. If you're going to tell the truth, I always tell the truth. So you talked me into writing that book. And it turns out I'm not a bad writer, and I write all my stuff Longhand, And as you said, I come prepared and I'm just you know, the firstborn girl child perfectionist. And he made me do that and he opened up all new horizons. So there's a personal legacy for me.

But his public legacy is in addition to what James said, absolutely Tran talk about transformation. He was a transformational force in the in the industry. But he I think in history will show him to be the this era is equivalent of like a Socrates. Do you know I know, I'm know how I'm the dumbest man in the world. That's how I know I'm smart, because I know how much I don't know, and I am the smart And he was the smartest man that I ever knew. But

he always was seeking and explaining virtue. And the essence of a representative republican freedom is virtue. It takes virtuous people, and virtue requires and freedom requires constant vigilance. And he I think in the span of history it will he will be understood by fair people, by fair historians, which there aren't very many, as a pivotal, transformational, socratic type person. And if I if you could flash forward, he was

in the modern era, post Enlightenment. He was more like Edmund Burke than Rospierre, you know, like he a good revolution,

a controlled revolution, and incremental revolution, a constructive revolution. Uh. He just I think his legacy will be that he guided us through a very from the industrial age to the information age, very very, very tricky, while maintaining the principles that got us to the position that we could continue to progress constructively and humanely and globally if we if we had taken his and it wasn't his advice and as the wisdom of the ages, and it was reality,

it was reality. I just think his legacy will will really be that honestly, that transformational. And I think Catherine's too. You know, she really brought the kind of support and structure and love and faith and in him that that he was always kind of not missing, but you know, like she really hit that sweet spot. And man, im, that's what I want to remember about him, is that he found not just success, he found his true love and his true place and his his his true life.

He lived his best life. And that's that's a legacy in and of itself. Mary, I cannot thank you enough. And I and and you know what, I also want to thank you, not just for me, not just for the time you did here, but you know, all of us that love Rush, we thank you for being such a good, steady, wonderful friend to our Rush. It was mutual.

And I want to just say this about Rush. There's no body that ever was in the presence of the man, ever that I know of liberals or conservatives or a political people who didn't think he was the most gentlemanly, interesting, humble, informative person they've ever met. And that's true. The man was just he was just everything the likes of rush, we're not going to see again and forever and and and I have to call you. Ooh, he knew he

and you. I don't think he could have done it without you, without the whole team, of course, but you were like the his constant touchstone, like you know, everything he said, he would take a look at you, or how many times as he said, we're talking about this, you don't believe you don't think that you disagree with me, And it was it's like he was never you never talked, which is so cool, Like you just we knew where you were and he would describe it, said, behind the thing,

and it just was that. That was a beautiful relationship. And I think a legacy too, because it's something that some somebody can have for the length of time that he had the same team. You have to be a good person with loyalty which goes both ways to have the kind of team that he had, which you were the spearhead of. So we thank you both, Snarley, James, Golden and best, best best for you and please let me be a part of your life going forward. Oh yes,

you know you are. You know. I love you so much, Mary, and thank you for everything. And thank you for doing this with us. And you know it's just in a way. I mean, I'm still heartbroken, Mary, but you know, just speaking with you it brings its smiles. It smiles. You're so handsome, You're so cute and so articulate. Please you keep doing what you're doing. And I don't think anyone can maintain in further the Limbaugh legacy better than you can. Both,

what an episode. Thank you, Mary Madlen and James Carville. On the next episode of Rush Limbaugh The Man Behind the Golden E I B Microphone, Russia Limbaugh in print, the most widely read political news letter in America was the Limball Letter. Meet two of the people behind it, the edit tricks of the Limball Letter, Diana a Loco, and the creative director, Denise May. That's coming up in

our next episode. Rush Limbaugh The Man Behind the Golden E I B Microphone is produced by Chris Kelly and Phil Tower, the Best Producers in America, Production assistant Mike Mamone and the executive producers Craig Kitchen and Julie Talbot. Our program distributed worldwide by Premier Networks. Found on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you list to your favorite podcast. This is James Golden. This is both Snrvey.

This is James Golden. I'm honored to be your host for this in every single episode of Russia Lumbaugh, the man behind the Golden E I B microphone, Thank you for being with us.